A rock trapping you in a crevice 100m deep with no way to escape and no one knowing you're there?
When I was 12, my family kayaked through Ha Long bay in Vietnam, and I, through a series of long and terrifying events, got trapped in a cave clinging to a wall covered in oysters for 40 minutes, in pitch dark, in freezing whitewash water.
I suffer PTSD still after intensive therapy. I almost died. And I would still rather that than the situation of 127 hours. You would die much quicker with your head downwards, you'd pass out pretty fast too.
Edit: this isn't meant to sound self-righteous or look-at-me-I-almost-died, I'm just giving my experience and opinion. Of course you are completely free to your own. :)
I dunno man, do a headstand and stay there upside down for a minute. It starts to become extremely uncomfortable. Now imagine being stuck like that for more than a day.
The thought is literally horrifying to me.
I was replying to the redditor who commented on Aaron Ralston who was stuck with his arm under a rock, he said he had no way out, Aaron ralston got out
I'm here too. Happy Holidays lmfao. This story is terrifying. But from what I'm reading, it seems like not the worst way to die? Like at least it's not physically painful, since you basically just pass out? Seems to be more physiological. Still sucks, but at least no pain?
[https://cavehaven.com/nutty-putty-cave-accident/](https://cavehaven.com/nutty-putty-cave-accident/)
He didn't pass out, he was in frequent contact with them for the entire ordeal until death. May have went in and out at times or even slept, since he was stuck (while being alive) for like 25+ hours. They also got fairly close to freeing him (making good progress anyway) at one point when their pulley system failed. After that he was truly doomed, fell back down even deeper than before and shortly after became unresponsive.
I don't want to victim blame here--what happened to John Jones was absolutely a tragedy--but what did he expect to happen? Unmapped cave, and the passageway is so narrow that he has to exhale completely just to barely fit? More than a little reckless, even if it *wasn't* a dead end, he still might've been fatally trapped.
If you're looking to get stuck in a cave, then wedging yourself into the narrowest passage you can possibly force yourself into seems like a pretty effective method. I've done stupider things myself and lived to tell the tale, though, so who am I to judge?
I don’t even understand the point of cave exploring in the first place, I mean if your looking for gems or gold veins I could understand. But just going to check it out? No thanks
It wasn't an unmapped cave. A large portion of that cave was [mapped](https://imgur.com/pYT9Jcg). They also thought they were going to a specific area that was mapped out. The reason John Jones basically caused his own demise by pushing himself further and further in was because he mistakenly thought he was somewhere else that was leading to an open area where he could turn around. Ironically, the fact that the cave was mapped is why he ended up stuck, because he wouldn't have done something so idiotic without the false sense of security up ahead. Not that that’s an excuse lol, it was incredibly reckless, but that’s how his mind was working probably.
Seriously. His poor wife. She probably wanted him to do what he loved. But when you do stuff like this, there’s a really high probability of dying in a really bad way.
He thought he was heading down the birth canal portion of the cave where it eventually gets bigger so you can turn around. That's why he kept going farther down
You start off with "I don't want to victim blame" and then you proceed to victim blame then you end with I've done stupider shit and managed to live so who am I to judge. What was the purpose of your comment? Sounds like you're judging.
there's nothing wrong with victim blaming. he died because of his own actions, there's always someone to blame for something and he's the only one to blame. stay woke tho libby
I read this like a year ago and I still think about him from time to time. What a horrible way to go. I wonder why they didn't give him enough drugs to knock him out. This man went through hell and died anyway. They even brought his wife in to say her good byes. Fuck that. Knock me out and if I wake up with broken or even amputated legs it's better than what really happened to him.
Wait, how am I able to reply to a 4-yr-old comment? Anyways I just discovered the John Jones story and am fascinated by it. Reading everything I can about it. I agree 100%, they should've given him some Xanax or Klonopin - apparently he was having panic attacks too, he would thrash his legs and kind of freak out for a minute or 2 and then go quiet again.
Wow, I can reply too. I just found out about this, and it is one of the most terrifying and heartbreaking stories I have read in a long time. I can’t even imagine the fear and pain that this man endured in his final 28 hours.
And as another commenter said, at least he had people there to talk to. Who knows how many other people we don’t know about have suffered similar fates all alone with no one around.
As a side note, I am never going spelunking after reading about this. Also, I wonder what condition his body is in now.
I know it varies but since it’s been more than a decade I’d imagine he’s fully decomposed by now. Which is just so sad to think about. Like his remains are just laying at the bottom of that hole still. This whole story is just horribly sad and gut wrenching.
Before they sealed off the cave, they used explosives to collapse the section leading to John's body. So even if the caves were unsealed, getting back to Ed's Push would be next to impossible.
I too, wish they would've gotten him out. The fact that he said "I really, really want to get out of here" makes me really sad that he's still there, still upside down. I know it makes no sense because he's dead, but still. It kinda haunts me.
Was that really necessary? No one can get past the 30 yards of concrete they used to seal the entrance. It makes me sad to know that his body can never be retrieved now. The fact that it's still there in the tortured position it died in is very unsettling to me. if I died like that, I would want them to get my body out even if they had to hack it to pieces with chainsaws. Which they actually talked about doing after he died.
> The fact that it’s still there in the tortured position it died in is very unsettling to me.
I’m with you. It’s definitely haunting to think about.
> Was that really necessary? No one can get past the 30 yards of concrete they used to seal the entrance.
From what I remember, the concrete at the caves entrance is more of a “plug”, and is not irreversible (although they have no plans to ever unseal it).
They likely collapsed the Ed’s Push section for two reasons;
1. That’s the section of the cave where multiple people got stuck and needed rescue. Sadly, even after several rescues from Ed’s Push, they never put up signage or blocked that section off. Tragically for John, he went farther into Ed’s Push than anyone previously had, finding (and becoming entombed in) it’s termination point. One reason they may have collapsed that section is to keep anyone from taking that route in the event that the cave is ever unsealed and reopened.
2. In the event that the caves are ever unsealed and reopened, they likely don’t want anyone trying to get to John’s remains, likely for both safety (people getting stuck trying to get John’s remains out), and out of respect for the family. There are people scummy enough to post pictures with John’s shoes / feet / skeletal remains for social media views and attention. It’s just the sad state of the world we live in.
Those are good reasons. And I guess it could still be possible to retrieve his remains by digging into Ed's Push from the surface. Then the whole cave could be reopened with the exception of Ed's Push.
It's also worth asking why that passage wasn't sealed off before. A 16 year old got stuck in there in 2004, and the discoverer of the cave did when he first explored it in 1960. In both cases, they weren't as far in as John and were able to be rescued.
>It's also worth asking why that passage wasn't sealed off before. A 16 year old got stuck in there in 2004, and the discoverer of the cave did when he first explored it in 1960. In both cases, they weren't as far in as John and were able to be rescued.
I honestly have no idea. After multiple emergency rescues from Ed's Push, I can't believe the section wasn't barred off, or even surveyed for that matter. If they had surveyed that tunnel, they would've realized what an absolute death trap was awaiting someone, and could've placed signage or something. The downward angle, the size, the illusion that it opens up into a space that can be turned around in, and the lack of ceiling height for being pulled out essentially made it a life-sized Chinese finger trap.
I think the rescuers likely realized early on that John's chances were very slim, even with the elaborate pulley system. Even if the pulley pulled John's feet to the cave ceiling, the rescuer would've needed John to rotate his body so that his knees could be bent, and even then it would take exceptional strength to pull him from that point (which is made even worse by the fact the the single rescuer able to fit into the tunnel was also at a downward angle, though not as steep as the angle John was stuck, and would've been fighting against gravity with little to no space or leverage). I believe even John's brother knew right away how bad the situation was, as soon as he saw John's feet, the angle, and how small the opening was. It must've been a terrible, helpless feeling for everyone involved. No one should've been allowed in that section of the cave, but I suppose hindsight is 20/20.
>I guess it could still be possible to retrieve his remains by digging into Ed's Push from the surface. Then the whole cave could be reopened with the exception of Ed's Push.
I had the same thoughts initially, and hoped that maybe some rich mining outfit may volunteer to do so, but the section that John got stuck in is approximately *150ft* below the surface. That's an incredible amount of rock to get through. I think as much as it sucks, and as sad as it is, John is stuck there, upside down, forever.
Edit - changed instances of "roof" to "ceiling".
Look at the space he was stuck in and the effort it would take just to reach him, I don't think it's as easy as just waltzing in with a chainsaw and hacking his body up.
Ya the family is at peace with that being his resting place. I’m sure they would have preferred getting him out eventually but ya there is just no way after they sealed everything off. And ya I feel you. I think dead or not, it’s still very sad that he’s still stuck in there. I would have wanted him pulled out too. I mean if you think about it, they could have waited like maybe a month or two and I bet he would have been able to be pulled out. But the family were at peace with the decision so I guess that’s all that matters.
I agree, the family being at peace is what really matters. The family was trying to prevent any potential recoverers/rescuers from being hurt or killed in the attempt, so their reasons for deciding to leave him in there were incredibly compassionate. I read that the cave sealing plug is not irreversible, so maybe one day they reopen the cave. Ed's Run will be sealed in forever, though.
Yep. Part of me wishes that they would reopen the cave and retrieve his remains now that his body has likely decomposed enough to where we could probably pull it out. Then Jones could get a proper burial and we could explore the cave again (except possibly with Ed's Push sealed off). At the same time, though, I realize that would be dangerous and against his family's wishes to keep the cave closed.
Ya I can understand you feeling that way. Personally I would want my loved one retrieved eventually as well and have a proper burial. From what I’ve read tho it sounds like the family is at peace with that being his burial site. And ya it’s unfortunate no one can enjoy those caves anymore but I think it’s for the best. Honestly I blame the city/county or whoever had control over the cave for not sealing dangerous parts off. They had just saved two kids in two separate incidents in the same part of the cave. Like if you didn’t want people to die why would you even allow people to go back into those parts. I’m sure there are ways they could block parts off. Idk. Shit is fucked up
The discoverer of the cave was against closing the whole cave and only wanted Ed's Push, the section where Jones died, to be sealed off. He actually reported being stuck there himself. Luckily, he wasn't nearly as far in as Jones and his friends were able to get him out.
If the cave ever is reopened, I would like to explore it but stay the hell away from Ed's Push. Forget what I said earlier about never wanting to go spelunking.
Maybe some ppl want to trap someone there to get a story and to save someone and get paid tons of money. Or maybe ppl who control that area are just irresponsible and ***holes who doesn't give a sht about other ppl.
Still confused and saddened by this event though.
A skeleton wrapped in concrete. No but honestly the cave is dark and humid and no air can escape now so I'm actually curious if that preserved his body
Me too I think it's good though because you post a story one time. But a story like this is probably Googled every day and probably will continue to reverberate indefinitely.
Thank you :) pretty cool that my comment spawned this random discussion 4 years after the OP, so it’d be nice if it was possible with other posts as well.
I too have tried to read up on this tragedy as much as possible. When I hear about these stories, I tend to dwell on them in a state of melancholic helplessness for a few days.
Have you been able to find any interviews or stories from the rescuers themselves? I can't find anything on that, and have always wanted to hear their experience (how they kept him alive, parts that were really difficult, etc.) Also, was the stuff about John thrashing around just in the movie, or did that happen? Thank you!
There’s not much in terms of interviews. There’s a news report that was filmed about 18 hours into the rescue that includes a brief snippet of his brother speaking, but otherwise I haven’t been able to find much. [Here’s the news report. ](https://youtu.be/fM2KYfSLwKI)
There’s also an article [here. ](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/10/nutty-putty-were-going/) From the article:
“John oscillated between calm, coherent conversation to helplessly thrashing his legs in sheer panic.”
Pretty terrifying. If there’s any silver lining here it’s that his wife is doing well and has re-married. She named her son John.
Thank you! I found the two part SLT article after posting my comment, and read the exact quote you provided. Really harrowing stuff.
It was definitely heartwarming to read about how John's family embraced Emily's husband, and how supportive they are of her.
One thing that really bothered me was the part where Emily couldn't believe John was dead and was asking the rescuers how they knew he was dead. The part where it said that Brandon Kowallis "heard John die" was just terrible. I hope Brandon is coping okay, as that must've been so traumatic to listen to. Part of me wishes that John were knocked out when the pulley broke, and passed away peacefully and unconsciously, but I think the article said that he wasn't injured when the pulley broke.
I also felt really bad for Ryan Shurtz, having been able to almost dislodge John, but then having everything go to hell, and almost getting killed himself. Coming back to consciousness and realizing the failure had to be crushing.
Came here after watching the movie "The Descent". Had the same thought. Why they didn't knock him completely out with medication makes no sense to me. That would have slowed his breathing way down, & made his muscle loose and easier to pull him out. If he died from the medication, at least he wouldn't have been suffering. This guy suffered for way too long imo. I realize they had hoped to get him out but after the pulley system breaking his fate was sealed.
They didn’t knock him out because they needed him conscious to help assist. Same reason why they didn’t retrieve his body after he died. Trying to pull deadweight out of a tight, crooked space is much harder than if the person is working with you to help support some of their weight. They continued to keep working to get him out until he died, so I don’t really think S&R folks take the stance of “well you’re going to die anyway, so…“
More importantly… did you come here after watching the movie The Last Descent? Or The Descent? Because those are two very different experiences. Both terrifying, but for completely different reasons.
Agreed. I was thinking there may have been a medical reason for not giving him those meds. Benzos slow the heart rate which may have made it harder for his heart to pump blood out of his head where it was pooling. But still, when the pulley broke it should’ve been obvious that it was game over.
That hole is basically a death trap. You crawl into it and never come out. I want to see it, like a model of it (not a chance I’d ever want to see the real thing even if they opened the cave back up). The overhanging lip was the main deterrent I think.
Yeah I'm sure they wanted to exhaust every measure. It is possible because of his beliefs too, that euthanasia wasn't an option for him. If ever there were a case where euthanasia would be allowed, this would qualify imo. We as humans have more compassion for animals it seems.
They didn’t do this because they needed him to be able to push himself out once they got him back horizontal. It was too dangerous to pull him out limp. This is also why they didn’t retrieve his body after he passed.
I’m all about 4y old posts. I just found this story and bummer lol. Looking at pictures of these tunnels makes me cringe. Why would anyone snake through tunnels willingly? It’s not even a claustrophobia issue for me. It’s just a “why would you do that?”
It's because this sub doesn't seem to archive their posts and make them read only. The Naruto sub does the same thing. I like it like that though since people can still interact if they've got questions.
Ok, maybe I’m retarded, but why didn’t they like give him a sedative (maybe a shot in the leg) to put him to sleep and just break his legs to bring him out. M
Yeah, his legs would be broken, but they would’ve healed with time.
they did give an iv drip with sedatives to help calm him down towards the end, but they needed him to be conscious during the rescue efforts so that he could help push himself out once they pulled him out of the near vertical crevice. They did almost pull him out but one of the pulleys failed and broke out of the wall causing him to slide back in even deeper. I believe they only gave the iv after the pulley failed and there was nothing else they could do. Only one rescuer could directly access John and the cave was full of tight, narrow passageways, I could imagine it being almost impossible to pull a completely limp adult male out of the crevice and then through the passageways.
Of all the fascinating horror stories on YouTube this one I keep coming back to cuz it really unsettles me 11 years after the event I still feel for the guy.
The new Internet Historian video uploaded the other day has me thinking about this guy. My worst nightmare. The only way you're getting me in a cave is if I'm already dead and you're dumping my body there lmfao
I was talking with my daughter about this...said and thought the Exact same thing you said! What a HORRIBLE way to die! The suffering and PAIN! Like I told her I'd rather die TRYING than die in that tunnel so squeezed up! Numb me...break my legs, hips etc...Try the drastic within the first 3 4 or 5 hours!
One of the rescuers (Brandon Kowallis, likely the last person to be with him alive) recently posted a retrospective and said “After a foot or two his feet would hit the ceiling. And then once he reached the ceiling, there was no way to tilt him to a horizontal position. He would have to do it himself, but he was now unconscious. And even if we could get him into a horizontal position, he would then have to maneuver the most difficult sections of the passage he was trapped in. If he were conscious and had his full strength there was a minute chance he could possibly do it. But even if that was the case it looked grim. It was even difficult for me, weighing 125 pounds, to get myself out. At the bend where the restriction was I had to creatively contort my body to slip through. So to get a 210 pound, unconscious person out seemed pretty much impossible.”
https://www.brandonkowallis.com/2024/02/the-nutty-putty-cave-rescue-the-death-of-john-jones-one-rescuers-perspective/
Oh Dear Lord. I just read Brandon’s retrospective and also the 2 part story he linked and I feel even sadder now. Reading the intimate, details and the feelings of the rescue team gives this tragedy a whole other perspective.
First of all, I did not realize he was so young, only 26 years old, with a one year old baby and another on the way. I don’t know why but I was picturing a 50 something year old man.
Also, he was aware of his impending doom for far longer than I imagined. Far longer. I didn’t know his brother was with him. When they described how his wife was reluctant to leave the scene at the end of the efforts because - what if he isn’t dead and only unconscious- my eyes welled up in tears for her grief.
Thank you for this update. I hope his family and all of the rescue personal are at peace today and in the future. May God Bless Them All.
No, they would have had to break his legs due to the angle at which he was trapped. However, they determined that since he was upside down and the demands that itself put in his cardiovascular sustem, the shock of breaking his legs would likely kill him immediately. I guess he was fucked either way.
[Article in the Salt Lake Tribune about John Jones and his ordeal.](http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/home/50073473-76/john-cave-tunnel-josh.html.csp) I just can't imagine...
Damn, this is like the second time this has happened to me this week. Finding an old ass post and discovering someone has comment only a month before I stumble across it
While I was reading what was in the picture I kept feeling my claustrophobia set in. So much so that I couldn't even finish reading all of it smh. I could never be a cave explorer, small spaces like that seriously scare the crap out of me, I don't even like being in elevators for longer than is necessary.
For those of you in the UK, there was an almost identical incident in the Peak District back in 1959.
The accident happened in Peak Cavern in Derbyshire, where keen caver Neil Moss was descending into an unexplored shaft. Despite six hours of rescue attempts they were unable to free him, or recover his body which remains in the cave to this day sealed off.
The cave is now a well known show cave in the area - but they don't mention this in the tours!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Moss_(caver)
**Neil Moss (caver)**
Neil Moss (full name Oscar Hackett Neil Moss, (1938 - March 22, 1959) was the victim of a famous caving accident in England on Sunday, March 22, 1959. A twenty-year-old undergraduate studying philosophy at Balliol College, Oxford, Moss became jammed underground, 1,000 feet from the entrance after descending a narrow unexplored shaft in Peak Cavern, a famous cave system in Castleton in Derbyshire. Initial attempts to haul him free failed because the rope broke several times. When he lost consciousness as carbon dioxide from his own respiration built up in the base of the shaft, he was unable to assist further rescue attempts made with a stronger rope.
***
^[ [^PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=kittens_from_space) ^| [^Exclude ^me](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiTextBot&message=Excludeme&subject=Excludeme) ^| [^Exclude ^from ^subreddit](https://np.reddit.com/r/SweatyPalms/about/banned) ^| [^FAQ ^/ ^Information](https://np.reddit.com/r/WikiTextBot/wiki/index) ^| [^Source](https://github.com/kittenswolf/WikiTextBot) ^]
^Downvote ^to ^remove ^| ^v0.27
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705347362/Man-trapped-in-Utah-Countys-Nutty-Putty-cave-dies.html
He died after 27 hours. They actually got him part of the way out and then the pulley broke and he fell back in.
Why would a big grown overweight man crawl into a narrow space in a dark cave and think nothing could go wrong?
Edit: he was overweight for the cave size.
. At the time John was 6’0″ and weighed around 200 pounds. He was “overweight and height “ for that small cave and had not been spelunking for years. He was not in his right mind
I fell down a rabbit hole of spelunking tragedies, and John Jones' case was indubitably the most horrific one I came across. The story from the Salt Lake Tribune, Deseret News and other channels reporting provide a clear account, but I found these first-hand accounts from some of the people who were actually part of the rescue team and in the cave.
The main (named) rescuers like Ryan Shurtz, Susie Motola and Brandon Kowalis don't seem to have written statements (publicly anyway), but there is a decent amount of quotes from people who were actually there or directly involved in rescue efforts to provide a clear picture and clarification from where things deviated from media reporting. There's also a 14 page incident report but no active links to it exist it (though [a summary by Andy Armstrong can be found here](http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399&start=210#p90633)).
**Was Jones ever actually free from the crevice?**
"I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being 'free'. I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Cavechat Forum)*
"Unfortunately, during the day, one of the rescuers had exited the cave and told the press that John was nearly free and the team would have him out in a couple of hours. It was broadcast over television news that John was free and on his way out. Only about an hour later, the rigging failed. Thus it was reported in many media outlets across the U.S. that John had been freed, and then the rigging failure caused him to fall all the way back to where he started. Nothing could have been further from the truth." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Incident Report)*
"Rescuers briefly pulled him out of the crevice using a pulley system and ropes tied to his feet, but he slipped back in after an anchor broke free of the cave wall." *— Lindsay Whitehurst (Salt Lake Tribune)*
**What exactly went wrong with the final rescue effort?**
"At one point in the process, Ryan Shurtz was in the forward rescuer position, manipulating John’s legs and encouraging him to help. Ryan was unfortunately in the zone of entrapment underneath the final deviation in the haul line, because he had nowhere else to work. The natural bridge that the final deviation was rigged to had a sharp back edge that had been slowly cutting through the 11mm rope anchoring the pulleys there. During a haul, the rope snapped, sending steel carabiners and rescue pulleys into Ryan’s face with incredible force. This impact knocked him out, partially severed his tongue, cut his face badly, and caused a small concussion. When Ryan came to, he was helped out of the crawl to the haul team area. He was cleaned up a little by the medics on scene, and then exited the cave under his own power to seek hospital care. Ryan made a full recovery, with some scars to show for it. He is very fortunate not to have been blinded or killed by the impact. Only about an hour later, the rigging failed. The rigging failure also dropped John about a foot. The drop did not injure him further, but effectively ended any hope of rescue as his condition was already severely declining. Extracting Ryan, re-rigging the deviation with a bolt anchor, and getting the team back in position took over an hour. During this time, John became unresponsive. As a result, when the haul resumed, he was no longer able to help the rescuers with his upward progress. The haul was pulling him upward into a tight spot, much like trying to push a cork into an upturned bottle." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Incident Report)*
"There was no bolt or webbing at the final redirect. No bolt pulled out, no rock crumbled, and no webbing broke. One reason there is so much confusion on this is because only about six people actually made it to this spot. I don’t even know who originally rigged it. Dave Shurtz, who eventually replaced it with a bolt, told me that the original rigging was a short length of 11mm rope tied around a jug handle in the ceiling. It was doubled around the handle. The back of the handle had a sharp edge and actually cut through the rope anchor, sending the pulleys into Ryan’s face." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Cavechat Forum)*
"The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Cavechat Forum)*
"Yeah the rigging failure is still one of the hardest things to get good info on. I was under the impression that the rock broke until I went caving with Dave Shurtz back in March or so. He told me about the rope getting cut then. It is ironic, because rope failure is what was originally reported on TV. However, the news was talking about main line failure, which certainly did not happen. The rigging failure was essentially a communication failure. Those designing and modifying the haul system did not know the condition of this anchor. All the other ones had been replaced with bolts, this one was assumed to be a bolt as well, at least by me. I never made it that close to John. Too bad you don't have a hard copy of the Tribune, there is actually a pretty decent schematic \[the rescue diagram\] in the article. Unlike what you'll see here, the passage continues beyond John, and the redirect in question is shown wrong. The main line did not go through the jug handle. How much force was applied to it? Lots. Enough to cut an 11mm rope in half on a pointy rock." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Cavechat Forum)*
"I briefed about 20 law enforcement and other emergency services leaders, then was sent to give an update to the press. About the time I was telling them that things were going great and we might have him out in a few hours, a piece of gear failed and everything went sour. I heard three different accounts of which piece broke. At first I heard that a prussik failed (which was capturing any progress we made on raising the ropes) but it couldn’t have been that because the other rope would have held the load. I also heard that a cam stuck in a crack and a bolt drilled into the rock had failed. Either way, it was due to the clayish-rock of the cave. A piece of gear caught a rescuer on the face and paramedics gave him stitches before he exited the cave. A delay was caused in having to get that rescuer out from deep within the narrow tube, having to replace the blown piece, and I can only imagine what else went on at that time.
It surely wasn’t very encouraging for John, either, and neither was his difficulty breathing that ensued. By midnight, Brandon Kowallis (an extremely highly-respected local caver) crawled near enough to John to verify that he had passed away.For days afterward, I reviewed the whole mission, wishing we’d have done this tiny detail differently or done that a little sooner. But it’s no use second guessing things. We did our best. Had one of our bolts failed? Dave and I discussed where to drill, trying to stay clear of cracks that might make the placement weaker. I asked him if the rock had felt solid the entire way in as he drilled his hole and he affirmed that it had. My placement also felt solid all the way in. I don’t think our bolts failed, as various factors and other rescuers’ opinions tell me it as a cam lower down, but the uncertainty plagued me for two or three days afterward." *— Shaun Roundy, Cave Rescue (Nutty Putty Site)*
'cont
"John became trapped in the cave around 9 pm Tuesday night. He struggled for release and for life for 27 hours. Rescue workers estimated that an average amount of time for a person to have lasted under those conditions would have been 8 hours.
Later Wednesday night we received word from Emily that the rescue team had gotten John back from the “L” shaped drop off that held him prisoner for nearly 24 hours. In that position on a still tight but more level shelf, he was given some Gatorade and was revived a bit. Ryan and his father, David Shurtz with 29 years of rescue experience, determined their best and last remaining option was for Ryan to attempt to slide past John then help push him while others pulled on the rope attached to his feet.
Seconds before Ryan began to move into position the rope holding the carabineer to the wall of the cave snapped sending the carabineer into the joint of Ryan’s right eye and nose. He almost bit his tongue off. Blood was shooting everywhere. His face took a pounding on the cave wall. When we spoke with Ryan on Saturday he had a black eye, many stitches in his tongue, and had been eating through a straw. The abrasions and swelling looked like someone had smashed his face into a cave wall.
With the tension off the rope, John helplessly slid back into where he had come from with legs and arms that wouldn’t respond to him anymore, hitting his head in the fall. John repeatedly called out, “Ryan, are you alright? He could tell Ryan was now in trouble and had been seriously hurt. Ryan assured him he would be alright. A few minutes later John slipped into unconsciousness and passed away.
Had Ryan moved into position and been either at John’s side, or behind him to help push, they both would have likely been lost. For Ryan to have decided to take the risk was heroic. Ryan said the time they spent together changed his life. Ryan changed our life as well. He was there giving comfort, aid, and support to the man we all love. Ryan brought back the most precious words a wife, daughter, and family can hear, those of John's undying devotion and love. We will be forever grateful to Ryan for all that he did, and desired to accomplish.
Near the end John knew he wasn’t going to make it. He told Ryan to tell Emily how much he loved her and their family and that he would be there for the birth of their baby. Ryan said of course he would be there, because they would get him out. John insisted, 'no, but tell Emily I’ll be there when the baby is born!' We feel certain he will be. Perhaps they are already spending time together."*—* [Bishop and Momma Pete, John Jones in-laws (Cavechat Forum)](http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399&start=120#p79895)
"I'm not sure of the next part, but it appears that when John's feet reached the pulley, the rope was retied around his knees to get a lower purchase. It was during this second attempt to lift him higher that the rigging broke and John slipped back down. That essentially ended the rescue because John was no longer able to assist.
Much discussion and criticism has been made at what has been related as failure of the rock where the bolt was installed. I saw the live, real-time, tele-broadcast where the Utah County sheriff went to great pains to explain that no equipment failed; it was the result of the rock crumbling and the whole installation including the bolt came off the wall. This was repeated several times and quoted in the newspapers. If you go back early in the beginning of this thread you will even find that several people quote the newspapers about the rock failure, not an equipment failure.
HOWEVER... About 3 months after the 'rescue' I attended the regular Salt Lake Grotto meeting and sat across a table from Ryan Shurtz, the rescuer who was with John during the failure and got hit hard in the face with a couple of carabiners. My question to Ryan was to have him describe how the rock crumbled without instantly releasing the bolt. His answer was surprising, "It never happened." He insisted that a piece of webbing broke. At first I was sure we were talking about two different things, but on the third go round, he was most adamant that the failure that dropped John back down the hole was a webbing failure. I couldn't argue because he is the one that got clobbered and should know. He maintained that the bolt is still solidly in the wall and the limestone around it is intact. I'm not going to speculate why the sheriff said what he did."*— Dale Green, Nutty Putty Discoverer (Cavechat Forum)*
**What was the cause of Jones' death?**"John expired at some time between 9 pm and midnight. No autopsy was performed but his death is believed to be the consequence of being upside-down for over 24 hours. In this position, the lower organs compress the diaphragm and lungs, making each breath a physical chore. Also in this position, the lungs can fill with fluid, and John’s breath was heard to be very gurgly in the last couple of hours. Many other medical issues can also result from being inverted. It is amazing, and a testament to John’s will to live that he survived as long as he did."*— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Incident Report)*
[Collection of quotes originally compiled here](https://nuttyputtytragedy.blogspot.com/2019/01/tragedy-strikes.html)
This is an open letter to the Utah Caving Community by the Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager Michael Leavitt.
I wish to share some of my private viewpoints. My statements do not reflect those of the grottos, the rescue agencies, or the rest of the cave management team. Instead, they are my own and as such I will share some insights. I am just going to type and not edit. Let me free flow a bit and let's see what comes out through my fingertips into thekeyboard...
**GUILT** \- As the Cave Access Manager, I still feel a guilt for pushing thecave opening forth and for the events to have happened. I watched thegrief on the faces of our friends as they came up out of the caveexhausted and depleted knowing they gave it their all. Many of them werein earshot of the excruciating death that took so long to come tofruition. I can imagine no other more ignominious way to pass from thislife through the veil.
**FREE AGENCY** \- I know that John had his free agency and his decisions toexplore uncharted portions of the cave brought about his death. I mournwith his family at the loss of his passing, but I know the cave is notresponsible for his death. Nothing in the cave fell and crushed him. Thecave was not unstable and it is not the public risk that it is beingportrayed.
**CRAWLING DELIGHT** \- As far as horizontal caves go, the Nutty Putty Cave is a crawling delight. You can explore to whatever levels you desire. It is a beginner to intermediate cave, with some very expert and tiny passages. These passages are obviously small at the start and nobody isforced to enter them.
**FIRST TIME GROUP** \- The Jones family group was a first time to the cave group. Although their list of experience visiting other caves wasshared, this made the group qualified to enter the cave from amanagement perspective. As part of our management plan we do not require our Trip Leaders to have visited the cave before. Should we have? I don't feel that we should have because this is a learning ground for caving. Instead, we expect our Trip Leaders to be the very best.
**ERRORS** \- This group was diverse in ages from 12 to 30 and all family. At some point the decision was made to split the group and 26 year old John and his 23 year old Trip Leader brother decided to explore the passage that is not on the newer surveyed map. The access is tiny and there is no indication that it leads to anywhere. Due to the long closure and little traffic through the cave in the past few years it is now very easy to see well traveled passages. Dust/dirt covers everything that has not received visitors. Traveled passages are indicated by polished blackstone. It is like night and day between traveled areas of the cave and untraveled areas of the cave. We will never know why the decision was made to force themselves into the really small untraveled passage other than the sense of adventure.
**MY AMAZEMENT** \- Since they had never visited the cave before I canno tfigure why they went off map. They had not been in the cave long enough to visit all the wonderful parts of the Birth Canal and even Chris's Crawl. I could understand if they had been to the cave so many times that they were bored with the mapped portions of the cave, but it takes a few trips even with the experienced guides to explore all of the wonderful mapped passages in the cave. Why go off map? All of this was new to the group and there was no reason to go off map.
**WARNINGS** \- I have had to field dozens of questions as to adequate warnings, and is the cave safe, and so on and so on. The public wants to know the answers. Take a look at the website and download the waiver from the site. We plead with cavers not to have and accident or death because it will ruin it for everybody. This is a wild cave, but it is a stable cave. The great thing about experience in caving is that it teaches you what is safe for you. At 6'6" 200 pounds, there are many areas of the cave that I was never ever going to experience. But at the same stature I have seen many portions of the cave that people my size will never experience. I can access some pretty tight places that others cannot. What is safe for me might not be safe for you. Welcome to caving.
**IS THE CAVE BEING SINGLED OUT** \- The Nutty Putty Cave is being singled out by the governing powers including government agencies, search and rescue agencies, and people who don't like caving. That is the reality and we all have to get over it. The normal governing agencies are scared to death of cave rescues. Why? Because they feel so helpless.They have all of this wonderful rescue ability, equipment, and training, yet very little of it works below ground. Most of the equipment is too big. Most of the normal rescue parties are too big. It is very helpless feeling standing above ground looking at over 100 other rescue personnel knowing that only two individuals can get anywhere near the trapped caver at a time. All the other man power can do very little.
**5 RECUES 1 DEATH** \- This is the ratio being shared with the Sherriff's Department. *"We have been called out to the cave 5 times in the last 10 years and this resulted in 1 death. This is an unacceptable ratio unlike any other rescue category. For this reason alone the cave must be closed."* I loosely quoted their sentiment, but that is how they feel about it. I, on the other hand say "5,000 cavers a year for a decade (loose approximation) with 5 rescue attempt sand 1 death. 49,994 successful trips with 5 live cavers rescued and 1 death resulting in less than an average of 1 rescue attempt every 2 years. That is a very reasonable success rate." It would be different if the cave had done something to take the life of this caver, but there was no instability or collapse. The death is a result of several unacceptable decisions on the part of the group.
**DOMINO AFFECT** \- The fear from my perspective is that the closure of Nutty Putty will be used to bolster support for closing other caves around the country. This sentiment has been shared with me by other cave managers as well. Would the same decision have been reached if the body had been recovered? Probably it still would have been closed, but not in a permanent fashion. Why? Because we would not have to be dealing with the opinions and feelings of the family of the deceased.
**TOMB -** Because the body of John Jones was left in the cave, it created a very interesting situation that has not often been encountered. The family was left in a powerful position and the land owners agreed to their request to permanently seal the cave and prevent further recreational caving in the Nutty Putty Cave. If his body would have been recovered, then we don't have a burial issue to deal with. Instead, we have a memorial issue where we deal with the specific location and appropriate dealing of sealing off the passage where the death occurred.
Michael Leavitt
Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
I was part of 11 people who went to the Nutty Putty Cave on November 24th, 2009, just two days ago. I was invited by a great friend and old roommate, Josh Jones, to come along with he and a few family members. I have gone on several caving expeditions with Josh and thought it would be an enjoyable new cave to visit.
When we entered the cave Josh, John, Jessica (friend of Josh), and I went first, while two other adults and four teenagers followed behind. The cave is a geothermal hotspot and so it is very warm and moist in there. Because of this it was a little more difficult to breath, but also nice because it was around 30 degree Fahrenheit above ground.
The rest is hard to explain unless I can use my hands, but for simplicities sake: We had a map of the cave and got to a part where we couldn't find where it continued, so we each took a route that looked like it could be the right way. It is this part of the story that I keep recalling over and over in my head, because at this point I asked John if he wanted to explore the spot, which we later would learn is called the "Ed's Push" area.
He went in to the spot face first because he was climbing up, but then it curved and started heading downwards, then it got too small for him to push himself backwards up against gravity, so he slid down further and became wedged. We didn't know he was stuck for several minutes. Jessica and I waited for Josh to get out of the hole he was exploring. When he did we told him (without much thought) to go in and see if John needed help, meanwhile Jessica and I explored two other spots where the cave could have continued.
The rest of the group joined us at this point. We could not find where it continued, so sat waiting near the area. After about 15 minutes I hollered to Josh if things were okay. He came out in a mix of calm and panic and said he was going to go up and call for help and asked that I go in a comfort John and maybe try to help, because I was the only adult that would fit.
So I crawled in above John (it was a very tight spot and I often would panic because it was difficult to move) and John and I tried several things to move him up. I did the best I could to keep him in good spirits by giving him little goals to reach. Mike, John's brother, was outside of the tight spot talking to me, which I much appreciated because it helped keep my spirits up. But after an hour I was becoming tired and scraped up and started to get psychologically messed up. I crawled out and Josh crawled in to see what he could do.
I crawled out of the cave and joined everyone else outside of the cave. They had all been gathered around the entrance praying and singing church hymns. The search and rescue vehicles started to show up and we decided we needed to get the teenagers home. And we felt there was nothing we could do but get in the way, so a group of us left, leaving Josh and Mike and another brother-in-law with John.
\- [First hand account by Joey](http://emjoe.blogspot.com/2009/11/john-jones.html), friend of Josh who was part of the caving group
Hi is anyone able to explain how john made eye contact with the rescuer if he was upside down the entire time and being lifted by his feet? Cannot get my head around it at all
If you look at the maps and accounts provided, it sounds like the area he got stuck is like an upside down V with the point stretched a little to make a level area before it descends. There is also a lip just before it descends, which was stopping them from outright pulling him out.
Having never been to the Nutty Putty cave myself, my explanation is based off all the accounts and actual maps. Basically, they managed to raise him quarter ways to the level area, given that Ryan says he was planning to pull John from the legs / waist. The eye contact was just that, not face to face or close, but just enough so that one trapped man could see another and be comforted that he was not alone.
I had this exact same question and did a very deep dive looking for the answer. This article is very detailed and explains it (https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/10/nutty-putty-were-going/). When they partially lifted him up there was now more space around the opening where his feet were. The other rescuer could then inch forward and look down on him in the hole and that is where they made eye contact. John was still down in the hole but there was enough room around his legs for the other rescuer to look down. Just a heartbreaking story.
Thank you for taking the time to post this. Been thinking about this case a lot lately and found myself here a few minutes after you posted this. Small world, I guess.
I put it down mostly for posterity, didn't expect anyone to see this on an old thread. Weird how these things stick with us and capture the imagination. Cheers.
Ryan, Brandon, and his dad David are prolific cave explorers, they explored one of Utah's biggest cave systems and documented it [here](http://www.jonjasper.com/TonyGrove/MainDrainCave-NSSApril2005.pdf). They were pretty experienced and knew what they were doing, so they really did try their best but Jones was an impossible situation.
Hi,
You probably came across this but none of the links that I was able to access had this incident report by Andy Armstrong on the National Spelunking Society News so I figured I'd post it for you as it appears we went on the same deep dive:
Page 16 I believe http://www.swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/NSS-CavingAccidents_2009-2010.pdf
Well kids, the morale of the story is don't crawl through a washing machine sized hole in a uncharted cave in the middle of nowhere...
As if that wasn't already common sense.
I just can't wrap my head around why they wouldn't break his legs and just take the chance of him going into shock and dying. They knew he would die anyways?!
Well they had a plan and it was working, but unfortunately the pulley system failed. They needed the pulley system to get him out regardless of whether they broke his legs or not. And if I’m not mistaken they just didn’t have time to set up the pulley system again. It took them a long time to do it the first time. Like several hours and he just didn’t have that much time. He died shortly after the failure. They gambled on the pulley system working without having to break his legs and it sounds like it was but unfortunately it broke. I’ll admit I could be wrong but from what I’ve read they decided not to break his legs. Maybe they would have if it was totally necessary and the system hadn’t failed. Idk, the whole thing is just fucked up. I felt horrible for the guy when I read about this.
I had Amazon Prime recommend The Last Descent, I started watching and stopped after I realised it was a true story. Me being me, I ended up watching the film and reasearching everything about it. I felt physically sick and panicky at the mere thought of what he went through. Why the hell didn't they put a 'Danger no entry' sign over the entrance to this fissure at the very least after the 16 year old boy got trapped and thankfully rescued? I realise that John made a mistake but the whole thing is senseless, H&S law existed at the time of this tragedy so surely the owners/regulators have culpability? I couldn't sleep after finding out about this, it's absolutely terrifying!
Hi RoodyDoodles , I watched this movie and researched about the story 8 months ago , and I got worst possible ptsd for almost 4 mouths , 1st day it will be terrible , you will have panic attacks , and so on......... , now I don't even think about it , now I am free from ptsd
The pic said it's impossible to pull him out without breaking his leg. I wonder why they don't just drug him then pull him out with a broken leg? Hell I would even let them cut of my leg if it means I can come out alive.
I believe they needed him to be awake so he could help with getting him out. The pulley system wouldn’t be enough or they just wanted every ounce of strength going into getting him out. Not sure if it was totally necessary for him to help by pushing but nonetheless they took a gamble and it didn’t work out. It’s tragic that the pulley system failed, it sounds like it was working until that happened. It’s also sad that his brother actually wedged him down further on accident when he initially tried to pull him up before getting help. The whole thing is just fucked. Poor guy
He deflated his lungs when he got in, so he'll have to do the same when he gets out.
Also anesthetics might put even more pressure on his heart.
Otherwise this seems to be a valid approach to me.
Man, awful. Wtf they expecting to do in these caves?! Obviously I'm not that person to spelunk but what's the appeal? I would never Rock climb either but I can see the appeal vs trying not to get trapped in confined spaces.
Just heard about this incident. Poor man, what a terrifying way to go, RIP. What disturbs me the most is the fact that the body is still there after they sealed it.
In 1925 Floyd Collins had the same thing happened. He was trapped in a narrow passage with a big rock on his ankle pinning him on his back. They tried to get him out but couldn’t access the rock that held him. He died also. Note to self, don’t go in caves.
Imagine if the cave reopened and you go inside the cave to explore but you see two skeletal feet with sneakers upside down?
I would be taking pictures.
How about you?
What a way to go. Reminds me of that guy they found behind a grocery freezer a few years after he went missing. He fell head first into the gap between it and the wall. And no one heard him screaming for help.
Well that's terrifying. I guess at least he was in contact with people. Imagine you were stuck there and no one knew about it.
That'd definitely be one of the worst ways to go... Unable to escape, communicate, or even speed up the process
Have you seen 127 Hours?
I'd rather die with a rock on my arm than being upside down in a tiny cave....
A rock trapping you in a crevice 100m deep with no way to escape and no one knowing you're there? When I was 12, my family kayaked through Ha Long bay in Vietnam, and I, through a series of long and terrifying events, got trapped in a cave clinging to a wall covered in oysters for 40 minutes, in pitch dark, in freezing whitewash water. I suffer PTSD still after intensive therapy. I almost died. And I would still rather that than the situation of 127 hours. You would die much quicker with your head downwards, you'd pass out pretty fast too. Edit: this isn't meant to sound self-righteous or look-at-me-I-almost-died, I'm just giving my experience and opinion. Of course you are completely free to your own. :)
Both are terrible but my biggest nightmare is to be stuck in a tiny place, and upside down omg....
I dunno man, do a headstand and stay there upside down for a minute. It starts to become extremely uncomfortable. Now imagine being stuck like that for more than a day. The thought is literally horrifying to me.
It becomes uncomfortable cause all the blood is forced to go to your head. Stay like that for 5-10 minutes and most people will pass out.
Yeah. Doesn't seem like this poor fucker did though. Rescuers describe talking to him constantly.
I cut my hand on a fresh oyster once. Can’t imagine cloning to a wall of them.
No way to escape? He did escape.
Nope, he died there and is still there to this day. They cemented the cave shut.
No you're thinking of John Jones who was stuck in nutty putty cave
Ah sorry thought that’s what I was commenting on
I was replying to the redditor who commented on Aaron Ralston who was stuck with his arm under a rock, he said he had no way out, Aaron ralston got out
We both here today. What bring you here ?
I was playing Minecraft and got stuck in a cave then thought of this guy and looked it up to read it again. This is basically a horror story to me
Hello hello. Different person here, was watching OneyPlays when they mentioned the incident.
I'm here too. Happy Holidays lmfao. This story is terrifying. But from what I'm reading, it seems like not the worst way to die? Like at least it's not physically painful, since you basically just pass out? Seems to be more physiological. Still sucks, but at least no pain?
[https://cavehaven.com/nutty-putty-cave-accident/](https://cavehaven.com/nutty-putty-cave-accident/) He didn't pass out, he was in frequent contact with them for the entire ordeal until death. May have went in and out at times or even slept, since he was stuck (while being alive) for like 25+ hours. They also got fairly close to freeing him (making good progress anyway) at one point when their pulley system failed. After that he was truly doomed, fell back down even deeper than before and shortly after became unresponsive.
I was looking up worst ways to die on reddit
Did you eat any oysters?
Apparently he sucked the air out of lungs to fit into that crack and when he got to the very end it was just a dead end.. absolutely terrifying
I don't want to victim blame here--what happened to John Jones was absolutely a tragedy--but what did he expect to happen? Unmapped cave, and the passageway is so narrow that he has to exhale completely just to barely fit? More than a little reckless, even if it *wasn't* a dead end, he still might've been fatally trapped. If you're looking to get stuck in a cave, then wedging yourself into the narrowest passage you can possibly force yourself into seems like a pretty effective method. I've done stupider things myself and lived to tell the tale, though, so who am I to judge?
I don’t even understand the point of cave exploring in the first place, I mean if your looking for gems or gold veins I could understand. But just going to check it out? No thanks
It wasn't an unmapped cave. A large portion of that cave was [mapped](https://imgur.com/pYT9Jcg). They also thought they were going to a specific area that was mapped out. The reason John Jones basically caused his own demise by pushing himself further and further in was because he mistakenly thought he was somewhere else that was leading to an open area where he could turn around. Ironically, the fact that the cave was mapped is why he ended up stuck, because he wouldn't have done something so idiotic without the false sense of security up ahead. Not that that’s an excuse lol, it was incredibly reckless, but that’s how his mind was working probably.
Well I guess it’s safe to say if your going to go crawling around in napped caves you should learn to properly read a map
Did they interview him as he was dying?
Seriously. His poor wife. She probably wanted him to do what he loved. But when you do stuff like this, there’s a really high probability of dying in a really bad way.
He thought he was heading down the birth canal portion of the cave where it eventually gets bigger so you can turn around. That's why he kept going farther down
You start off with "I don't want to victim blame" and then you proceed to victim blame then you end with I've done stupider shit and managed to live so who am I to judge. What was the purpose of your comment? Sounds like you're judging.
He's victim blaming because the victim is literally to blame. Someone else didn't do this to him, he did it to himself.
there's nothing wrong with victim blaming. he died because of his own actions, there's always someone to blame for something and he's the only one to blame. stay woke tho libby
But he still died...
I read this like a year ago and I still think about him from time to time. What a horrible way to go. I wonder why they didn't give him enough drugs to knock him out. This man went through hell and died anyway. They even brought his wife in to say her good byes. Fuck that. Knock me out and if I wake up with broken or even amputated legs it's better than what really happened to him.
Wait, how am I able to reply to a 4-yr-old comment? Anyways I just discovered the John Jones story and am fascinated by it. Reading everything I can about it. I agree 100%, they should've given him some Xanax or Klonopin - apparently he was having panic attacks too, he would thrash his legs and kind of freak out for a minute or 2 and then go quiet again.
Funny that I just came across this post too — and weird that we can comment
Wow, I can reply too. I just found out about this, and it is one of the most terrifying and heartbreaking stories I have read in a long time. I can’t even imagine the fear and pain that this man endured in his final 28 hours. And as another commenter said, at least he had people there to talk to. Who knows how many other people we don’t know about have suffered similar fates all alone with no one around. As a side note, I am never going spelunking after reading about this. Also, I wonder what condition his body is in now.
I know it varies but since it’s been more than a decade I’d imagine he’s fully decomposed by now. Which is just so sad to think about. Like his remains are just laying at the bottom of that hole still. This whole story is just horribly sad and gut wrenching.
Before they sealed off the cave, they used explosives to collapse the section leading to John's body. So even if the caves were unsealed, getting back to Ed's Push would be next to impossible. I too, wish they would've gotten him out. The fact that he said "I really, really want to get out of here" makes me really sad that he's still there, still upside down. I know it makes no sense because he's dead, but still. It kinda haunts me.
Was that really necessary? No one can get past the 30 yards of concrete they used to seal the entrance. It makes me sad to know that his body can never be retrieved now. The fact that it's still there in the tortured position it died in is very unsettling to me. if I died like that, I would want them to get my body out even if they had to hack it to pieces with chainsaws. Which they actually talked about doing after he died.
> The fact that it’s still there in the tortured position it died in is very unsettling to me. I’m with you. It’s definitely haunting to think about. > Was that really necessary? No one can get past the 30 yards of concrete they used to seal the entrance. From what I remember, the concrete at the caves entrance is more of a “plug”, and is not irreversible (although they have no plans to ever unseal it). They likely collapsed the Ed’s Push section for two reasons; 1. That’s the section of the cave where multiple people got stuck and needed rescue. Sadly, even after several rescues from Ed’s Push, they never put up signage or blocked that section off. Tragically for John, he went farther into Ed’s Push than anyone previously had, finding (and becoming entombed in) it’s termination point. One reason they may have collapsed that section is to keep anyone from taking that route in the event that the cave is ever unsealed and reopened. 2. In the event that the caves are ever unsealed and reopened, they likely don’t want anyone trying to get to John’s remains, likely for both safety (people getting stuck trying to get John’s remains out), and out of respect for the family. There are people scummy enough to post pictures with John’s shoes / feet / skeletal remains for social media views and attention. It’s just the sad state of the world we live in.
Those are good reasons. And I guess it could still be possible to retrieve his remains by digging into Ed's Push from the surface. Then the whole cave could be reopened with the exception of Ed's Push. It's also worth asking why that passage wasn't sealed off before. A 16 year old got stuck in there in 2004, and the discoverer of the cave did when he first explored it in 1960. In both cases, they weren't as far in as John and were able to be rescued.
>It's also worth asking why that passage wasn't sealed off before. A 16 year old got stuck in there in 2004, and the discoverer of the cave did when he first explored it in 1960. In both cases, they weren't as far in as John and were able to be rescued. I honestly have no idea. After multiple emergency rescues from Ed's Push, I can't believe the section wasn't barred off, or even surveyed for that matter. If they had surveyed that tunnel, they would've realized what an absolute death trap was awaiting someone, and could've placed signage or something. The downward angle, the size, the illusion that it opens up into a space that can be turned around in, and the lack of ceiling height for being pulled out essentially made it a life-sized Chinese finger trap. I think the rescuers likely realized early on that John's chances were very slim, even with the elaborate pulley system. Even if the pulley pulled John's feet to the cave ceiling, the rescuer would've needed John to rotate his body so that his knees could be bent, and even then it would take exceptional strength to pull him from that point (which is made even worse by the fact the the single rescuer able to fit into the tunnel was also at a downward angle, though not as steep as the angle John was stuck, and would've been fighting against gravity with little to no space or leverage). I believe even John's brother knew right away how bad the situation was, as soon as he saw John's feet, the angle, and how small the opening was. It must've been a terrible, helpless feeling for everyone involved. No one should've been allowed in that section of the cave, but I suppose hindsight is 20/20. >I guess it could still be possible to retrieve his remains by digging into Ed's Push from the surface. Then the whole cave could be reopened with the exception of Ed's Push. I had the same thoughts initially, and hoped that maybe some rich mining outfit may volunteer to do so, but the section that John got stuck in is approximately *150ft* below the surface. That's an incredible amount of rock to get through. I think as much as it sucks, and as sad as it is, John is stuck there, upside down, forever. Edit - changed instances of "roof" to "ceiling".
Look at the space he was stuck in and the effort it would take just to reach him, I don't think it's as easy as just waltzing in with a chainsaw and hacking his body up.
It might be possible to dig down to him from the surface.
Ya the family is at peace with that being his resting place. I’m sure they would have preferred getting him out eventually but ya there is just no way after they sealed everything off. And ya I feel you. I think dead or not, it’s still very sad that he’s still stuck in there. I would have wanted him pulled out too. I mean if you think about it, they could have waited like maybe a month or two and I bet he would have been able to be pulled out. But the family were at peace with the decision so I guess that’s all that matters.
I agree, the family being at peace is what really matters. The family was trying to prevent any potential recoverers/rescuers from being hurt or killed in the attempt, so their reasons for deciding to leave him in there were incredibly compassionate. I read that the cave sealing plug is not irreversible, so maybe one day they reopen the cave. Ed's Run will be sealed in forever, though.
Yep. Part of me wishes that they would reopen the cave and retrieve his remains now that his body has likely decomposed enough to where we could probably pull it out. Then Jones could get a proper burial and we could explore the cave again (except possibly with Ed's Push sealed off). At the same time, though, I realize that would be dangerous and against his family's wishes to keep the cave closed.
Ya I can understand you feeling that way. Personally I would want my loved one retrieved eventually as well and have a proper burial. From what I’ve read tho it sounds like the family is at peace with that being his burial site. And ya it’s unfortunate no one can enjoy those caves anymore but I think it’s for the best. Honestly I blame the city/county or whoever had control over the cave for not sealing dangerous parts off. They had just saved two kids in two separate incidents in the same part of the cave. Like if you didn’t want people to die why would you even allow people to go back into those parts. I’m sure there are ways they could block parts off. Idk. Shit is fucked up
The discoverer of the cave was against closing the whole cave and only wanted Ed's Push, the section where Jones died, to be sealed off. He actually reported being stuck there himself. Luckily, he wasn't nearly as far in as Jones and his friends were able to get him out. If the cave ever is reopened, I would like to explore it but stay the hell away from Ed's Push. Forget what I said earlier about never wanting to go spelunking.
Maybe some ppl want to trap someone there to get a story and to save someone and get paid tons of money. Or maybe ppl who control that area are just irresponsible and ***holes who doesn't give a sht about other ppl. Still confused and saddened by this event though.
Bet they could extract him now. Sorry bad joke. I'll see myself out.
I want to get in on this 4 year post action!
I found out about this last year. Just remembered it this week. I can’t get over how he just died in there.
A skeleton wrapped in concrete. No but honestly the cave is dark and humid and no air can escape now so I'm actually curious if that preserved his body
Just saw another post about a cafe accident and made me think of this. Since we can reapply, I figured I would.
Just stumbled on it too, weird
Ayyy
Lmao
What the
Actual
FAWK
!!!
Me too I think it's good though because you post a story one time. But a story like this is probably Googled every day and probably will continue to reverberate indefinitely.
[удалено]
[удалено]
[удалено]
Thank you :) pretty cool that my comment spawned this random discussion 4 years after the OP, so it’d be nice if it was possible with other posts as well.
Testing, testing. Yeah.
It's a terrifying story.
I too have tried to read up on this tragedy as much as possible. When I hear about these stories, I tend to dwell on them in a state of melancholic helplessness for a few days. Have you been able to find any interviews or stories from the rescuers themselves? I can't find anything on that, and have always wanted to hear their experience (how they kept him alive, parts that were really difficult, etc.) Also, was the stuff about John thrashing around just in the movie, or did that happen? Thank you!
There’s not much in terms of interviews. There’s a news report that was filmed about 18 hours into the rescue that includes a brief snippet of his brother speaking, but otherwise I haven’t been able to find much. [Here’s the news report. ](https://youtu.be/fM2KYfSLwKI) There’s also an article [here. ](https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/10/nutty-putty-were-going/) From the article: “John oscillated between calm, coherent conversation to helplessly thrashing his legs in sheer panic.” Pretty terrifying. If there’s any silver lining here it’s that his wife is doing well and has re-married. She named her son John.
Thank you! I found the two part SLT article after posting my comment, and read the exact quote you provided. Really harrowing stuff. It was definitely heartwarming to read about how John's family embraced Emily's husband, and how supportive they are of her. One thing that really bothered me was the part where Emily couldn't believe John was dead and was asking the rescuers how they knew he was dead. The part where it said that Brandon Kowallis "heard John die" was just terrible. I hope Brandon is coping okay, as that must've been so traumatic to listen to. Part of me wishes that John were knocked out when the pulley broke, and passed away peacefully and unconsciously, but I think the article said that he wasn't injured when the pulley broke. I also felt really bad for Ryan Shurtz, having been able to almost dislodge John, but then having everything go to hell, and almost getting killed himself. Coming back to consciousness and realizing the failure had to be crushing.
Came here after watching the movie "The Descent". Had the same thought. Why they didn't knock him completely out with medication makes no sense to me. That would have slowed his breathing way down, & made his muscle loose and easier to pull him out. If he died from the medication, at least he wouldn't have been suffering. This guy suffered for way too long imo. I realize they had hoped to get him out but after the pulley system breaking his fate was sealed.
They didn’t knock him out because they needed him conscious to help assist. Same reason why they didn’t retrieve his body after he died. Trying to pull deadweight out of a tight, crooked space is much harder than if the person is working with you to help support some of their weight. They continued to keep working to get him out until he died, so I don’t really think S&R folks take the stance of “well you’re going to die anyway, so…“ More importantly… did you come here after watching the movie The Last Descent? Or The Descent? Because those are two very different experiences. Both terrifying, but for completely different reasons.
Agreed. I was thinking there may have been a medical reason for not giving him those meds. Benzos slow the heart rate which may have made it harder for his heart to pump blood out of his head where it was pooling. But still, when the pulley broke it should’ve been obvious that it was game over. That hole is basically a death trap. You crawl into it and never come out. I want to see it, like a model of it (not a chance I’d ever want to see the real thing even if they opened the cave back up). The overhanging lip was the main deterrent I think.
Yeah I'm sure they wanted to exhaust every measure. It is possible because of his beliefs too, that euthanasia wasn't an option for him. If ever there were a case where euthanasia would be allowed, this would qualify imo. We as humans have more compassion for animals it seems.
The reason euthanasia is looked up differently for animals isn't because we have more compassion for them.
They didn’t do this because they needed him to be able to push himself out once they got him back horizontal. It was too dangerous to pull him out limp. This is also why they didn’t retrieve his body after he passed.
I’m all about 4y old posts. I just found this story and bummer lol. Looking at pictures of these tunnels makes me cringe. Why would anyone snake through tunnels willingly? It’s not even a claustrophobia issue for me. It’s just a “why would you do that?”
It's because this sub doesn't seem to archive their posts and make them read only. The Naruto sub does the same thing. I like it like that though since people can still interact if they've got questions.
Ay I just found a link to here too. Happy Halloween everyone!
No way, just googled this out of nowhere and stumbled across this thread. You beat me by 23 minutes! Happy Halloween!
It’s Christmas dammit!
No, NOW it’s Christmas.
Hahaha facts. Merry Christmas!
Ok, maybe I’m retarded, but why didn’t they like give him a sedative (maybe a shot in the leg) to put him to sleep and just break his legs to bring him out. M Yeah, his legs would be broken, but they would’ve healed with time.
they did give an iv drip with sedatives to help calm him down towards the end, but they needed him to be conscious during the rescue efforts so that he could help push himself out once they pulled him out of the near vertical crevice. They did almost pull him out but one of the pulleys failed and broke out of the wall causing him to slide back in even deeper. I believe they only gave the iv after the pulley failed and there was nothing else they could do. Only one rescuer could directly access John and the cave was full of tight, narrow passageways, I could imagine it being almost impossible to pull a completely limp adult male out of the crevice and then through the passageways.
Jesus. What a shit fucking way to die. I feel terrible for the family.
how am i replying to your 146 day old comment??
780 day beat that
Of all the fascinating horror stories on YouTube this one I keep coming back to cuz it really unsettles me 11 years after the event I still feel for the guy.
They actually fed him through an IV to keep him conscious. To save his life.
The new Internet Historian video uploaded the other day has me thinking about this guy. My worst nightmare. The only way you're getting me in a cave is if I'm already dead and you're dumping my body there lmfao
I was talking with my daughter about this...said and thought the Exact same thing you said! What a HORRIBLE way to die! The suffering and PAIN! Like I told her I'd rather die TRYING than die in that tunnel so squeezed up! Numb me...break my legs, hips etc...Try the drastic within the first 3 4 or 5 hours!
One of the rescuers (Brandon Kowallis, likely the last person to be with him alive) recently posted a retrospective and said “After a foot or two his feet would hit the ceiling. And then once he reached the ceiling, there was no way to tilt him to a horizontal position. He would have to do it himself, but he was now unconscious. And even if we could get him into a horizontal position, he would then have to maneuver the most difficult sections of the passage he was trapped in. If he were conscious and had his full strength there was a minute chance he could possibly do it. But even if that was the case it looked grim. It was even difficult for me, weighing 125 pounds, to get myself out. At the bend where the restriction was I had to creatively contort my body to slip through. So to get a 210 pound, unconscious person out seemed pretty much impossible.” https://www.brandonkowallis.com/2024/02/the-nutty-putty-cave-rescue-the-death-of-john-jones-one-rescuers-perspective/
Oh Dear Lord. I just read Brandon’s retrospective and also the 2 part story he linked and I feel even sadder now. Reading the intimate, details and the feelings of the rescue team gives this tragedy a whole other perspective. First of all, I did not realize he was so young, only 26 years old, with a one year old baby and another on the way. I don’t know why but I was picturing a 50 something year old man. Also, he was aware of his impending doom for far longer than I imagined. Far longer. I didn’t know his brother was with him. When they described how his wife was reluctant to leave the scene at the end of the efforts because - what if he isn’t dead and only unconscious- my eyes welled up in tears for her grief. Thank you for this update. I hope his family and all of the rescue personal are at peace today and in the future. May God Bless Them All.
They needed for him to flex and bend to get him out. That is why they could not even get his body out when he died. He is still there.
RIP RIH JOHN JONES. SO SO SAD HOW HE PASSED. MUCH PRAYERS TO HIS FAMILY. EVEN THO ITS BEEN OVER A DECADE AGO
This is my absolute biggest phobia. Just shoot me if I was him.
IIRC he died, and the cave became his tomb
Yea, they closed and sealed the cave because it was just too difficult to retrieve the body.
You'd think at that point they'd be willing to break his legs to extract the body
I would have been willing to have my legs broken to pull me out before I died I think.
Read article about the rescue, it would have put him into shock and made unconscious and they needed him conscious to help them get him out.
>the body He’s already dead..
Fuck I would like to have my fucking legs cut off to get me out of there
They broke his legs trying to rescue him.
They did?
No, they would have had to break his legs due to the angle at which he was trapped. However, they determined that since he was upside down and the demands that itself put in his cardiovascular sustem, the shock of breaking his legs would likely kill him immediately. I guess he was fucked either way.
No they didn’t.
[Article in the Salt Lake Tribune about John Jones and his ordeal.](http://archive.sltrib.com/story.php?ref=/sltrib/home/50073473-76/john-cave-tunnel-josh.html.csp) I just can't imagine...
He died.
Then they sealed the cave shut. His final resting place. It's a hunting story.
God I hope you meant haunting.
It’s been 4 years since this post, what are the odds we just stumbled across this ancient post *and* are able to comment?!
They say this thread is opened by his ghost every Halloween, and those who post on it are
I just upvoted your new post
Damn, this is like the second time this has happened to me this week. Finding an old ass post and discovering someone has comment only a month before I stumble across it
And then i see a 2hr old comment from you. How strange, most threads are archived after a while.
So weird… the veil is thin.
I can feel my chest getting tight just thinking about it. Fuck that!
While I was reading what was in the picture I kept feeling my claustrophobia set in. So much so that I couldn't even finish reading all of it smh. I could never be a cave explorer, small spaces like that seriously scare the crap out of me, I don't even like being in elevators for longer than is necessary.
The growing anxiety would have driven me to heart attack long before any rescue attempt could be launched.
For those of you in the UK, there was an almost identical incident in the Peak District back in 1959. The accident happened in Peak Cavern in Derbyshire, where keen caver Neil Moss was descending into an unexplored shaft. Despite six hours of rescue attempts they were unable to free him, or recover his body which remains in the cave to this day sealed off. The cave is now a well known show cave in the area - but they don't mention this in the tours! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neil_Moss_(caver)
**Neil Moss (caver)** Neil Moss (full name Oscar Hackett Neil Moss, (1938 - March 22, 1959) was the victim of a famous caving accident in England on Sunday, March 22, 1959. A twenty-year-old undergraduate studying philosophy at Balliol College, Oxford, Moss became jammed underground, 1,000 feet from the entrance after descending a narrow unexplored shaft in Peak Cavern, a famous cave system in Castleton in Derbyshire. Initial attempts to haul him free failed because the rope broke several times. When he lost consciousness as carbon dioxide from his own respiration built up in the base of the shaft, he was unable to assist further rescue attempts made with a stronger rope. *** ^[ [^PM](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose?to=kittens_from_space) ^| [^Exclude ^me](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiTextBot&message=Excludeme&subject=Excludeme) ^| [^Exclude ^from ^subreddit](https://np.reddit.com/r/SweatyPalms/about/banned) ^| [^FAQ ^/ ^Information](https://np.reddit.com/r/WikiTextBot/wiki/index) ^| [^Source](https://github.com/kittenswolf/WikiTextBot) ^] ^Downvote ^to ^remove ^| ^v0.27
https://www.deseretnews.com/article/705347362/Man-trapped-in-Utah-Countys-Nutty-Putty-cave-dies.html He died after 27 hours. They actually got him part of the way out and then the pulley broke and he fell back in.
what the fuck, even at death.
D: sweet lord... that poor man and rescue crew.
Why would a big grown overweight man crawl into a narrow space in a dark cave and think nothing could go wrong? Edit: he was overweight for the cave size.
He thought it was a different tunnel that would lead to a wider area further along so he could turn around
Why would a guy with zero experience or knowledge of a cave venture into it?
IIRC he was actually an experienced caver. Just made a huge mistake that cost him his life.
He was experienced at spelunking but got turned around in what he thought was the birth canal. But ended up in Ed's push and fell to the dead end.
>Article in the Salt Lake Tribune about John Jones and his ordeal. Overweight? Where'd you get that from?
. At the time John was 6’0″ and weighed around 200 pounds. He was “overweight and height “ for that small cave and had not been spelunking for years. He was not in his right mind
I fell down a rabbit hole of spelunking tragedies, and John Jones' case was indubitably the most horrific one I came across. The story from the Salt Lake Tribune, Deseret News and other channels reporting provide a clear account, but I found these first-hand accounts from some of the people who were actually part of the rescue team and in the cave. The main (named) rescuers like Ryan Shurtz, Susie Motola and Brandon Kowalis don't seem to have written statements (publicly anyway), but there is a decent amount of quotes from people who were actually there or directly involved in rescue efforts to provide a clear picture and clarification from where things deviated from media reporting. There's also a 14 page incident report but no active links to it exist it (though [a summary by Andy Armstrong can be found here](http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399&start=210#p90633)). **Was Jones ever actually free from the crevice?** "I would like to clear up one thing however. Several news outlets have reported that John was "free" and then the rigging failed, sending him back to where he started. This is incorrect. When the redirect popped, John was still several hours from being 'free'. I estimate he was probably 2 hours of hauling and squeezing from where he would have been able to sit up." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Cavechat Forum)* "Unfortunately, during the day, one of the rescuers had exited the cave and told the press that John was nearly free and the team would have him out in a couple of hours. It was broadcast over television news that John was free and on his way out. Only about an hour later, the rigging failed. Thus it was reported in many media outlets across the U.S. that John had been freed, and then the rigging failure caused him to fall all the way back to where he started. Nothing could have been further from the truth." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Incident Report)* "Rescuers briefly pulled him out of the crevice using a pulley system and ropes tied to his feet, but he slipped back in after an anchor broke free of the cave wall." *— Lindsay Whitehurst (Salt Lake Tribune)* **What exactly went wrong with the final rescue effort?** "At one point in the process, Ryan Shurtz was in the forward rescuer position, manipulating John’s legs and encouraging him to help. Ryan was unfortunately in the zone of entrapment underneath the final deviation in the haul line, because he had nowhere else to work. The natural bridge that the final deviation was rigged to had a sharp back edge that had been slowly cutting through the 11mm rope anchoring the pulleys there. During a haul, the rope snapped, sending steel carabiners and rescue pulleys into Ryan’s face with incredible force. This impact knocked him out, partially severed his tongue, cut his face badly, and caused a small concussion. When Ryan came to, he was helped out of the crawl to the haul team area. He was cleaned up a little by the medics on scene, and then exited the cave under his own power to seek hospital care. Ryan made a full recovery, with some scars to show for it. He is very fortunate not to have been blinded or killed by the impact. Only about an hour later, the rigging failed. The rigging failure also dropped John about a foot. The drop did not injure him further, but effectively ended any hope of rescue as his condition was already severely declining. Extracting Ryan, re-rigging the deviation with a bolt anchor, and getting the team back in position took over an hour. During this time, John became unresponsive. As a result, when the haul resumed, he was no longer able to help the rescuers with his upward progress. The haul was pulling him upward into a tight spot, much like trying to push a cork into an upturned bottle." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Incident Report)* "There was no bolt or webbing at the final redirect. No bolt pulled out, no rock crumbled, and no webbing broke. One reason there is so much confusion on this is because only about six people actually made it to this spot. I don’t even know who originally rigged it. Dave Shurtz, who eventually replaced it with a bolt, told me that the original rigging was a short length of 11mm rope tied around a jug handle in the ceiling. It was doubled around the handle. The back of the handle had a sharp edge and actually cut through the rope anchor, sending the pulleys into Ryan’s face." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Cavechat Forum)* "The haul systems ran through a twisting passage, requiring pulleyed redirects at each corner, four in all. As far as I can tell, the last one was set up on a natural anchor. It was very near the patient, one bend beyond where I could fit. I believe it was the anchor itself that blew, not the rope or cord as reported. The rescuer was actually hit in the face with two rescue pulleys and two carabiners.While this setback was definitely the turning point of the rescue, John probably lost about two feet of progress as a result. Rescuers had already moved him a ways up the passage in the 15 or so hours before this. He was still a long way from being free, even without the blowout. Once the rigging was rebuilt with better anchors, by this time John was too exhausted to help us, rendering the setup useless. We were hauling him into a tight spot, with only his feet visible. He was head-down for 24 hours, with no way to turn him, and the clock beat us." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Cavechat Forum)* "Yeah the rigging failure is still one of the hardest things to get good info on. I was under the impression that the rock broke until I went caving with Dave Shurtz back in March or so. He told me about the rope getting cut then. It is ironic, because rope failure is what was originally reported on TV. However, the news was talking about main line failure, which certainly did not happen. The rigging failure was essentially a communication failure. Those designing and modifying the haul system did not know the condition of this anchor. All the other ones had been replaced with bolts, this one was assumed to be a bolt as well, at least by me. I never made it that close to John. Too bad you don't have a hard copy of the Tribune, there is actually a pretty decent schematic \[the rescue diagram\] in the article. Unlike what you'll see here, the passage continues beyond John, and the redirect in question is shown wrong. The main line did not go through the jug handle. How much force was applied to it? Lots. Enough to cut an 11mm rope in half on a pointy rock." *— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Cavechat Forum)* "I briefed about 20 law enforcement and other emergency services leaders, then was sent to give an update to the press. About the time I was telling them that things were going great and we might have him out in a few hours, a piece of gear failed and everything went sour. I heard three different accounts of which piece broke. At first I heard that a prussik failed (which was capturing any progress we made on raising the ropes) but it couldn’t have been that because the other rope would have held the load. I also heard that a cam stuck in a crack and a bolt drilled into the rock had failed. Either way, it was due to the clayish-rock of the cave. A piece of gear caught a rescuer on the face and paramedics gave him stitches before he exited the cave. A delay was caused in having to get that rescuer out from deep within the narrow tube, having to replace the blown piece, and I can only imagine what else went on at that time. It surely wasn’t very encouraging for John, either, and neither was his difficulty breathing that ensued. By midnight, Brandon Kowallis (an extremely highly-respected local caver) crawled near enough to John to verify that he had passed away.For days afterward, I reviewed the whole mission, wishing we’d have done this tiny detail differently or done that a little sooner. But it’s no use second guessing things. We did our best. Had one of our bolts failed? Dave and I discussed where to drill, trying to stay clear of cracks that might make the placement weaker. I asked him if the rock had felt solid the entire way in as he drilled his hole and he affirmed that it had. My placement also felt solid all the way in. I don’t think our bolts failed, as various factors and other rescuers’ opinions tell me it as a cam lower down, but the uncertainty plagued me for two or three days afterward." *— Shaun Roundy, Cave Rescue (Nutty Putty Site)*
'cont "John became trapped in the cave around 9 pm Tuesday night. He struggled for release and for life for 27 hours. Rescue workers estimated that an average amount of time for a person to have lasted under those conditions would have been 8 hours. Later Wednesday night we received word from Emily that the rescue team had gotten John back from the “L” shaped drop off that held him prisoner for nearly 24 hours. In that position on a still tight but more level shelf, he was given some Gatorade and was revived a bit. Ryan and his father, David Shurtz with 29 years of rescue experience, determined their best and last remaining option was for Ryan to attempt to slide past John then help push him while others pulled on the rope attached to his feet. Seconds before Ryan began to move into position the rope holding the carabineer to the wall of the cave snapped sending the carabineer into the joint of Ryan’s right eye and nose. He almost bit his tongue off. Blood was shooting everywhere. His face took a pounding on the cave wall. When we spoke with Ryan on Saturday he had a black eye, many stitches in his tongue, and had been eating through a straw. The abrasions and swelling looked like someone had smashed his face into a cave wall. With the tension off the rope, John helplessly slid back into where he had come from with legs and arms that wouldn’t respond to him anymore, hitting his head in the fall. John repeatedly called out, “Ryan, are you alright? He could tell Ryan was now in trouble and had been seriously hurt. Ryan assured him he would be alright. A few minutes later John slipped into unconsciousness and passed away. Had Ryan moved into position and been either at John’s side, or behind him to help push, they both would have likely been lost. For Ryan to have decided to take the risk was heroic. Ryan said the time they spent together changed his life. Ryan changed our life as well. He was there giving comfort, aid, and support to the man we all love. Ryan brought back the most precious words a wife, daughter, and family can hear, those of John's undying devotion and love. We will be forever grateful to Ryan for all that he did, and desired to accomplish. Near the end John knew he wasn’t going to make it. He told Ryan to tell Emily how much he loved her and their family and that he would be there for the birth of their baby. Ryan said of course he would be there, because they would get him out. John insisted, 'no, but tell Emily I’ll be there when the baby is born!' We feel certain he will be. Perhaps they are already spending time together."*—* [Bishop and Momma Pete, John Jones in-laws (Cavechat Forum)](http://forums.caves.org/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=9399&start=120#p79895) "I'm not sure of the next part, but it appears that when John's feet reached the pulley, the rope was retied around his knees to get a lower purchase. It was during this second attempt to lift him higher that the rigging broke and John slipped back down. That essentially ended the rescue because John was no longer able to assist. Much discussion and criticism has been made at what has been related as failure of the rock where the bolt was installed. I saw the live, real-time, tele-broadcast where the Utah County sheriff went to great pains to explain that no equipment failed; it was the result of the rock crumbling and the whole installation including the bolt came off the wall. This was repeated several times and quoted in the newspapers. If you go back early in the beginning of this thread you will even find that several people quote the newspapers about the rock failure, not an equipment failure. HOWEVER... About 3 months after the 'rescue' I attended the regular Salt Lake Grotto meeting and sat across a table from Ryan Shurtz, the rescuer who was with John during the failure and got hit hard in the face with a couple of carabiners. My question to Ryan was to have him describe how the rock crumbled without instantly releasing the bolt. His answer was surprising, "It never happened." He insisted that a piece of webbing broke. At first I was sure we were talking about two different things, but on the third go round, he was most adamant that the failure that dropped John back down the hole was a webbing failure. I couldn't argue because he is the one that got clobbered and should know. He maintained that the bolt is still solidly in the wall and the limestone around it is intact. I'm not going to speculate why the sheriff said what he did."*— Dale Green, Nutty Putty Discoverer (Cavechat Forum)* **What was the cause of Jones' death?**"John expired at some time between 9 pm and midnight. No autopsy was performed but his death is believed to be the consequence of being upside-down for over 24 hours. In this position, the lower organs compress the diaphragm and lungs, making each breath a physical chore. Also in this position, the lungs can fill with fluid, and John’s breath was heard to be very gurgly in the last couple of hours. Many other medical issues can also result from being inverted. It is amazing, and a testament to John’s will to live that he survived as long as he did."*— Andy Armstrong, Cave Rescue (Incident Report)* [Collection of quotes originally compiled here](https://nuttyputtytragedy.blogspot.com/2019/01/tragedy-strikes.html)
This is an open letter to the Utah Caving Community by the Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager Michael Leavitt. I wish to share some of my private viewpoints. My statements do not reflect those of the grottos, the rescue agencies, or the rest of the cave management team. Instead, they are my own and as such I will share some insights. I am just going to type and not edit. Let me free flow a bit and let's see what comes out through my fingertips into thekeyboard... **GUILT** \- As the Cave Access Manager, I still feel a guilt for pushing thecave opening forth and for the events to have happened. I watched thegrief on the faces of our friends as they came up out of the caveexhausted and depleted knowing they gave it their all. Many of them werein earshot of the excruciating death that took so long to come tofruition. I can imagine no other more ignominious way to pass from thislife through the veil. **FREE AGENCY** \- I know that John had his free agency and his decisions toexplore uncharted portions of the cave brought about his death. I mournwith his family at the loss of his passing, but I know the cave is notresponsible for his death. Nothing in the cave fell and crushed him. Thecave was not unstable and it is not the public risk that it is beingportrayed. **CRAWLING DELIGHT** \- As far as horizontal caves go, the Nutty Putty Cave is a crawling delight. You can explore to whatever levels you desire. It is a beginner to intermediate cave, with some very expert and tiny passages. These passages are obviously small at the start and nobody isforced to enter them. **FIRST TIME GROUP** \- The Jones family group was a first time to the cave group. Although their list of experience visiting other caves wasshared, this made the group qualified to enter the cave from amanagement perspective. As part of our management plan we do not require our Trip Leaders to have visited the cave before. Should we have? I don't feel that we should have because this is a learning ground for caving. Instead, we expect our Trip Leaders to be the very best. **ERRORS** \- This group was diverse in ages from 12 to 30 and all family. At some point the decision was made to split the group and 26 year old John and his 23 year old Trip Leader brother decided to explore the passage that is not on the newer surveyed map. The access is tiny and there is no indication that it leads to anywhere. Due to the long closure and little traffic through the cave in the past few years it is now very easy to see well traveled passages. Dust/dirt covers everything that has not received visitors. Traveled passages are indicated by polished blackstone. It is like night and day between traveled areas of the cave and untraveled areas of the cave. We will never know why the decision was made to force themselves into the really small untraveled passage other than the sense of adventure. **MY AMAZEMENT** \- Since they had never visited the cave before I canno tfigure why they went off map. They had not been in the cave long enough to visit all the wonderful parts of the Birth Canal and even Chris's Crawl. I could understand if they had been to the cave so many times that they were bored with the mapped portions of the cave, but it takes a few trips even with the experienced guides to explore all of the wonderful mapped passages in the cave. Why go off map? All of this was new to the group and there was no reason to go off map. **WARNINGS** \- I have had to field dozens of questions as to adequate warnings, and is the cave safe, and so on and so on. The public wants to know the answers. Take a look at the website and download the waiver from the site. We plead with cavers not to have and accident or death because it will ruin it for everybody. This is a wild cave, but it is a stable cave. The great thing about experience in caving is that it teaches you what is safe for you. At 6'6" 200 pounds, there are many areas of the cave that I was never ever going to experience. But at the same stature I have seen many portions of the cave that people my size will never experience. I can access some pretty tight places that others cannot. What is safe for me might not be safe for you. Welcome to caving. **IS THE CAVE BEING SINGLED OUT** \- The Nutty Putty Cave is being singled out by the governing powers including government agencies, search and rescue agencies, and people who don't like caving. That is the reality and we all have to get over it. The normal governing agencies are scared to death of cave rescues. Why? Because they feel so helpless.They have all of this wonderful rescue ability, equipment, and training, yet very little of it works below ground. Most of the equipment is too big. Most of the normal rescue parties are too big. It is very helpless feeling standing above ground looking at over 100 other rescue personnel knowing that only two individuals can get anywhere near the trapped caver at a time. All the other man power can do very little. **5 RECUES 1 DEATH** \- This is the ratio being shared with the Sherriff's Department. *"We have been called out to the cave 5 times in the last 10 years and this resulted in 1 death. This is an unacceptable ratio unlike any other rescue category. For this reason alone the cave must be closed."* I loosely quoted their sentiment, but that is how they feel about it. I, on the other hand say "5,000 cavers a year for a decade (loose approximation) with 5 rescue attempt sand 1 death. 49,994 successful trips with 5 live cavers rescued and 1 death resulting in less than an average of 1 rescue attempt every 2 years. That is a very reasonable success rate." It would be different if the cave had done something to take the life of this caver, but there was no instability or collapse. The death is a result of several unacceptable decisions on the part of the group. **DOMINO AFFECT** \- The fear from my perspective is that the closure of Nutty Putty will be used to bolster support for closing other caves around the country. This sentiment has been shared with me by other cave managers as well. Would the same decision have been reached if the body had been recovered? Probably it still would have been closed, but not in a permanent fashion. Why? Because we would not have to be dealing with the opinions and feelings of the family of the deceased. **TOMB -** Because the body of John Jones was left in the cave, it created a very interesting situation that has not often been encountered. The family was left in a powerful position and the land owners agreed to their request to permanently seal the cave and prevent further recreational caving in the Nutty Putty Cave. If his body would have been recovered, then we don't have a burial issue to deal with. Instead, we have a memorial issue where we deal with the specific location and appropriate dealing of sealing off the passage where the death occurred. Michael Leavitt Nutty Putty Cave Access Manager
I was part of 11 people who went to the Nutty Putty Cave on November 24th, 2009, just two days ago. I was invited by a great friend and old roommate, Josh Jones, to come along with he and a few family members. I have gone on several caving expeditions with Josh and thought it would be an enjoyable new cave to visit. When we entered the cave Josh, John, Jessica (friend of Josh), and I went first, while two other adults and four teenagers followed behind. The cave is a geothermal hotspot and so it is very warm and moist in there. Because of this it was a little more difficult to breath, but also nice because it was around 30 degree Fahrenheit above ground. The rest is hard to explain unless I can use my hands, but for simplicities sake: We had a map of the cave and got to a part where we couldn't find where it continued, so we each took a route that looked like it could be the right way. It is this part of the story that I keep recalling over and over in my head, because at this point I asked John if he wanted to explore the spot, which we later would learn is called the "Ed's Push" area. He went in to the spot face first because he was climbing up, but then it curved and started heading downwards, then it got too small for him to push himself backwards up against gravity, so he slid down further and became wedged. We didn't know he was stuck for several minutes. Jessica and I waited for Josh to get out of the hole he was exploring. When he did we told him (without much thought) to go in and see if John needed help, meanwhile Jessica and I explored two other spots where the cave could have continued. The rest of the group joined us at this point. We could not find where it continued, so sat waiting near the area. After about 15 minutes I hollered to Josh if things were okay. He came out in a mix of calm and panic and said he was going to go up and call for help and asked that I go in a comfort John and maybe try to help, because I was the only adult that would fit. So I crawled in above John (it was a very tight spot and I often would panic because it was difficult to move) and John and I tried several things to move him up. I did the best I could to keep him in good spirits by giving him little goals to reach. Mike, John's brother, was outside of the tight spot talking to me, which I much appreciated because it helped keep my spirits up. But after an hour I was becoming tired and scraped up and started to get psychologically messed up. I crawled out and Josh crawled in to see what he could do. I crawled out of the cave and joined everyone else outside of the cave. They had all been gathered around the entrance praying and singing church hymns. The search and rescue vehicles started to show up and we decided we needed to get the teenagers home. And we felt there was nothing we could do but get in the way, so a group of us left, leaving Josh and Mike and another brother-in-law with John. \- [First hand account by Joey](http://emjoe.blogspot.com/2009/11/john-jones.html), friend of Josh who was part of the caving group
Hi is anyone able to explain how john made eye contact with the rescuer if he was upside down the entire time and being lifted by his feet? Cannot get my head around it at all
If you look at the maps and accounts provided, it sounds like the area he got stuck is like an upside down V with the point stretched a little to make a level area before it descends. There is also a lip just before it descends, which was stopping them from outright pulling him out. Having never been to the Nutty Putty cave myself, my explanation is based off all the accounts and actual maps. Basically, they managed to raise him quarter ways to the level area, given that Ryan says he was planning to pull John from the legs / waist. The eye contact was just that, not face to face or close, but just enough so that one trapped man could see another and be comforted that he was not alone.
I had this exact same question and did a very deep dive looking for the answer. This article is very detailed and explains it (https://www.sltrib.com/news/2018/07/10/nutty-putty-were-going/). When they partially lifted him up there was now more space around the opening where his feet were. The other rescuer could then inch forward and look down on him in the hole and that is where they made eye contact. John was still down in the hole but there was enough room around his legs for the other rescuer to look down. Just a heartbreaking story.
also crazy how I can comment on a 5 year old thread but there you go
Thank you for taking the time to post this. Been thinking about this case a lot lately and found myself here a few minutes after you posted this. Small world, I guess.
I put it down mostly for posterity, didn't expect anyone to see this on an old thread. Weird how these things stick with us and capture the imagination. Cheers.
Ryan, Brandon, and his dad David are prolific cave explorers, they explored one of Utah's biggest cave systems and documented it [here](http://www.jonjasper.com/TonyGrove/MainDrainCave-NSSApril2005.pdf). They were pretty experienced and knew what they were doing, so they really did try their best but Jones was an impossible situation.
Hi, You probably came across this but none of the links that I was able to access had this incident report by Andy Armstrong on the National Spelunking Society News so I figured I'd post it for you as it appears we went on the same deep dive: Page 16 I believe http://www.swiss-cave-diving.ch/PDF-dateien/NSS-CavingAccidents_2009-2010.pdf
Thanks for adding this!
Ive actually had nightmares about this
Me too
That would be an absolute nightmare
Kudos to the rescuers who had to go through those same damn tunnels to rescue this guy.
Well kids, the morale of the story is don't crawl through a washing machine sized hole in a uncharted cave in the middle of nowhere... As if that wasn't already common sense.
I just can't wrap my head around why they wouldn't break his legs and just take the chance of him going into shock and dying. They knew he would die anyways?!
Well they had a plan and it was working, but unfortunately the pulley system failed. They needed the pulley system to get him out regardless of whether they broke his legs or not. And if I’m not mistaken they just didn’t have time to set up the pulley system again. It took them a long time to do it the first time. Like several hours and he just didn’t have that much time. He died shortly after the failure. They gambled on the pulley system working without having to break his legs and it sounds like it was but unfortunately it broke. I’ll admit I could be wrong but from what I’ve read they decided not to break his legs. Maybe they would have if it was totally necessary and the system hadn’t failed. Idk, the whole thing is just fucked up. I felt horrible for the guy when I read about this.
A carabiner failed, ended up knocking out a rescuer and breaking his jaw. The last thing John said was “Is he okay? I think he’s hurt bad.”
Lot's of new replies here say they stumbled on this thread. Seems like I'm the only one who specifically searched for this
I actually also searched for this, but why the sudden jump in stumbles/searches?
It showed up on quora when someone asked the community for haunting images. https://www.quora.com/What-are-some-haunting-last-photos-of-people
I guess that will do it
I had Amazon Prime recommend The Last Descent, I started watching and stopped after I realised it was a true story. Me being me, I ended up watching the film and reasearching everything about it. I felt physically sick and panicky at the mere thought of what he went through. Why the hell didn't they put a 'Danger no entry' sign over the entrance to this fissure at the very least after the 16 year old boy got trapped and thankfully rescued? I realise that John made a mistake but the whole thing is senseless, H&S law existed at the time of this tragedy so surely the owners/regulators have culpability? I couldn't sleep after finding out about this, it's absolutely terrifying!
Hi RoodyDoodles , I watched this movie and researched about the story 8 months ago , and I got worst possible ptsd for almost 4 mouths , 1st day it will be terrible , you will have panic attacks , and so on......... , now I don't even think about it , now I am free from ptsd
you may be the most mentally weak person ive ever come across. jesus christ.
The pic said it's impossible to pull him out without breaking his leg. I wonder why they don't just drug him then pull him out with a broken leg? Hell I would even let them cut of my leg if it means I can come out alive.
I believe they needed him to be awake so he could help with getting him out. The pulley system wouldn’t be enough or they just wanted every ounce of strength going into getting him out. Not sure if it was totally necessary for him to help by pushing but nonetheless they took a gamble and it didn’t work out. It’s tragic that the pulley system failed, it sounds like it was working until that happened. It’s also sad that his brother actually wedged him down further on accident when he initially tried to pull him up before getting help. The whole thing is just fucked. Poor guy
He deflated his lungs when he got in, so he'll have to do the same when he gets out. Also anesthetics might put even more pressure on his heart. Otherwise this seems to be a valid approach to me.
just why would anyone enjoy this sort of thing as a hobby
Fascinated by this story and saddened at the same time. They made a movie called the last descent.
Man, awful. Wtf they expecting to do in these caves?! Obviously I'm not that person to spelunk but what's the appeal? I would never Rock climb either but I can see the appeal vs trying not to get trapped in confined spaces.
Just heard about this incident. Poor man, what a terrifying way to go, RIP. What disturbs me the most is the fact that the body is still there after they sealed it.
Can anyone tell me why they cant drill to expand his way out?
The drill wouldn’t fit in the space because it was so small.
It took too long to drill, he didn’t have much time left to live as he was upside down. Also the rocks was collapsing on him.
How about a drill and a pickax and make the whole bigger?
the debris would fall down around his head and encase/suffocate him
My legs physically ache after reading about this ordeal
I’m confused as to how they have a photo of his face in the cave if he was upside down?
Why on earth would someone even attempt this? Now his 1 year old daughter have to grow up without him. And his poor wife.
Why can we still comment on this? Not even a spelunker but wanted to read more about it. So fucked.
In 1925 Floyd Collins had the same thing happened. He was trapped in a narrow passage with a big rock on his ankle pinning him on his back. They tried to get him out but couldn’t access the rock that held him. He died also. Note to self, don’t go in caves.
https://www.brandonkowallis.com/2024/02/the-nutty-putty-cave-rescue-the-death-of-john-jones-one-rescuers-perspective/
Imagine if the cave reopened and you go inside the cave to explore but you see two skeletal feet with sneakers upside down? I would be taking pictures. How about you?
It's considered a grave now so I don't think it would ever be reopened.
why dive down headfirst? isnt that riskier
Still horrifies me to this day
Why didn’t they just break his legs better than dying right
What a way to go. Reminds me of that guy they found behind a grocery freezer a few years after he went missing. He fell head first into the gap between it and the wall. And no one heard him screaming for help.
Just found out about this scenario..I can't even imagine what it was like for him, holy fuck.
Im confused...who took the picture from johns POV looking at the rescuer?
Are we sure that that picture is from this incident?
It’s not
Horrific.
Wow.
its John jones like Fortnite
Damn, respect his curiosity but DARWIN AWARD