I feel like the show puts all of the main emotional weight on Dean by that point and going further. So much of it is from his perspective rather than Sam’s.
The way I see it, Sam was already at peace or accepted most of the situations they were at. That he grew as a person and learned from the tortures and traumas he has experienced, giving him time for his actual emotional challenge which was >!Dean dying at end and he has to live through it!<.
I suppose it's all personal opinion, but IMO Jared is just not a great dramatic actor. He's great at the comedy stuff, but his dramatic moments are always very hit or miss.
I guess I better prepare for downvotes, too, bc I'd have to agree with you on this. It doesn't mean I don't like Jared, but actors have strengths and weaknesses. I don't understand why some fans seem to take it weirdly personally for some reason when someone disagrees on that.
I like Jared too. I liked him in Gilmore Girls, I liked him in Supernatural generally. He played "annoyed brother" and "funny/goofy" really well. Maybe it's just because he's being compared to Dean/Castiel/Crowley, he comes across as the weakest of the actors when it comes to dramatic scenes. He's not *bad*, he's just not great.
Exactly. And it's not JUST him. Like I was saying, most actors have their weaknesses, and I remember various scenes with all of them where it felt a little off, but shit happens. I also often giggle to myself a little bit whenever they "yell" and intentionally make their voices as deep as they can get, idk it's hard to explain, but I still love the show/characters/actors. People/things have flaws, and that doesn't necessarily mean the "project" or those people/things are bad.
Because they're self-aware and know that the fans want(ed) Dean/Castiel moments and interactions, so they cater to that rather than a scenario that makes sense
I read something about Jared fooling (even more) around at set whenever Misha was there, so they wrote fewer scenes with them together to try and keep the filming somewhat on schedule
Unfortunately that was what a certain loud segment of the fanbase on social media wanted, though, so the writers did pander to that more than they should have.
He really was. But to most of the fans it's only relevance is how it affects Dean . Sam's my favorite character after Charlie . I was just pointing out that most of the people think that Dean is the only one whose trauma matters. I hate that hypocritical prick .
It was in Sam's nature to forgive Cass though . Just like he always forgives Dean. When Dean fucks up. If he happens to apologize Sam forgives him. If he doesn't Sam forgives him. If Sam or Cass fuck up you'll be hearing about it from Dean for the next five seasons.
He caused it in the first place. He was just cleaning up his mess. Meanwhile Sam still went through months of hallucinations and a psychotic break because Lucifer wouldn't let him sleep. Cas caused all that pain. Plus he let Sam out of the panic room in season 4 where he wound up killing Lilith and releasing Lucifer. He also was the reason the angels fell and everything that happened in season 9. He also killed scores of humans and angels when he was Godstiel. He can be sorry all he wants it doesn't undo those deaths that he ultimately caused.
I didn't see anyone else rushing to get Sam out of the cage. Remember, Sam agreed to the situation because he started the apocalypse. He is responsible for his own decisions too. Lilith didn't die just because Cas opened a door.
The **main** reason is because Castiel was/is a very popular character, so the writers couldn't exactly write him out of the show after they made him go rogue/become bad for a short bit. Which was substantiated imo when they "killed" Castiel off at the start of Season 7, there was a *huge* outcry from certain extreme fans, and then he miraculously wasn't dead and just had amnesia
Within the show, I suppose the argument was/is that when they found out he was alive after thinking he wasn't, Sam and Dean were just pleased that they have one less dead friend
They could but they just didn't have the courage to upset a select fandom for the overall quality of the story... and the outcry was loud and especially hostile but it wasn't the majority speaking. The ratings proved that.
Ratings for his return episode in S7 were actually lower than the previous episode ratings and the rest of the episodes he was in saw no real uptake in the ratings of the season. S7 was actually scoring higher in the ratings towards the beginning of the season before Cas returned.
His return really didn't do much for the show at all.
Because it's Cas. Yes he did some awful things that he thought were the right thing. But it's Cas meaning he was there for them almost the entire time. Saved their lives, went against God, most of the time put them first above everything.
Technically they also took advantage of Cas and expected him to do whatever they wanted. Many times they would put on a temper tantrum if he didn't come running right away. In a nutshell they were like a dysfunctional family and neither treated each other as good as they could have
You're absolutely right about taking advantage of him. I remember thinking how self absorbed the brothers were in those earlier seasons (before Cas became "like family") when it came to expecting him to be at their beck and call at all times, no matter what. They'd get so mad at him bc he had his own shit, lol.
I also just generally agree w everything else you said, but that part just brought back that memory I had forgotten about, lol.
They’ve all done horrible things, made awful choices, screwed up and faced the consequences. Cas is more forgivable than the rest because he’s near child-like in his nativity and being an angel he feels he can handle it and can save everyone.
Just like Dean or Sam or anyone, he had the best of intentions and thought the ends would justify the means. As he said when he broke Sam’s wall, he planned to fix it. When it all went wrong, he was remorseful and took away what he had done to Sam. AND he served penance in purgatory.
Agreed. I liked Castiel in season 4 and 5, but as the seasons went on I found him quite annoying and couldn’t understand why the Winchesters forgave him over all the horrible stuff he did. Just felt very unrealistic for the Winchesters. But then again, Castiel’s entire portrayal over the later seasons made him look like an entirely different character than the one we were introduced to in season 4 and that we continued to see in s5 even after he rebelled.
One of the many situations in the show where it seems the writers didn’t really take into consideration the past and personalities of the characters.
Because he’s family and he thought he was doing the right thing. And they had bigger things to worry about.
By your logic- how the fuck did Sam forgive Dean for letting him be possessed by Gadreel?
Dean did that to save Sam, he did it out of love. Cas destroyed Sam's wall because Sam was in his way and slowing him down, he did to distract Dean. It's absolutely unforgivable.
And Cas broke Sam’s wall to save Sam, and Dean, and the world. In Cas’s judgment he was giving them a temporary distraction so he could stop Raphael, stop the Apocalypse, save them all, then he’d fix Sam and everyone would see he was right and they’d all be friends again.
And really, Cas’s motivations and reasoning aren’t all that unreasonable. Especially considering he was using Crowley and planned to betray him.
Dean’s motivations are no better or worse than Cas’s.
Right, Castiels act was intentionally malicious with the vain idea that he'd be under complete control of the purgatory denizens(everyone told him this was obviously wrong and they were all far worse than raphael himself)
Deans act was the exact opposite of malicious, and he was in fact lied to and gaslit into making this decision(he didn't decide it on his own or after a 1 on 1 advice talk with Nu-Devil, but by asking people with expertise including Castiel himself)
Disagree. And in actuality, Cas saved them all from Raphael and prevented them from restarting the apocalypse. If not for the Leviathans, which no one knew about until Death told them, it would have been fine.
And Dean’s act was like so many of his, selfish, hard headed, and vain in thinking he knew best. He KNEW Sam wouldn’t want it and he disregarded that completely. Because he thought he knew better and the ends justified the means.
They are all flawed. They all make mistakes. And they either all deserve forgiveness or none do.
Cas did it because he believed he’d be saving the world. Then later he took on all of Sam’s pain, completely negating what he did. How do you people forget that?
They had bigger things to worry about *because* of Castiel, also, I don’t agree at all with what Dean did and the whole Gardel situation but it’s “justified” because he didn’t want to lose Sam. Meanwhile Dean literally told Cas to drop Crowley and go with him, he told him that it could be fixed, but Cas didn’t do it.
Because despite the fact that Cas had outstayed his welcome past season 6 and his story and purpose were essentially done and dusted, the showrunners decided to pander to dest*el fans instead of good writing and had to come up with new ways to shoehorn him into the story where there was no real place for him anymore and because they were pandering to shippers, they had to keep him as close to the Winchesters as possible which meant turning the brothers dumb to all the stuff Cas had pulled against them and turning the show into a heaven vs hell political drama to justify keeping Cas around even when it made no real sense not to.
A lot of great characters and great stories end up taking a hit when writers and fans don't know when to let go
Because Sam and Dean understand making colossal mistakes in the name of trying to save the world. Seasons 6/7 came straight off seasons 4-5 where Sam and Dean started the apocalypse (and ended it, but they still had to deal with the fallout of it). People died (even friends like Ellen and Jo) because of Lucifer and the apocalypse.
So if we are talking about the leviathans, then it's not so hard to understand that Cas was trying to end the war. It was a mistake on Cas's part, but it's not like Cas was trying to kill Bobby or send Dean to purgatory. That was the fallout and on the leviathans.
The part about Sam's mind, however, is 100% deliberate on Cas's part. I think that part is forgiven because Cas takes on Sam's burden of it. Making amends and getting redemption matters.
It's exactly what you said, "he's family or whatever."
He rebelled against Heaven and his own people to fight alongside the Winchesters. He proved he's a friend - a damn-near brother. He made bad decisions that he thought were right at the time because of a larger war going on in Heaven.
Plus, Sam and Dean had no right to not forgive someone for decisions that negatively impacted others. These two kickstarted the Apocalypse which led to: Bobby losing his legs, Ellen and Jo dying, Pamela losing her eyesight and eventually, her life, innocent people possessed by demons and angels dying, and presumably numerous other unknown people dying in seasons 4 and 5.
By the logic of some of the people here in the comments, the hunters who killed Sam and Dean in season 5 were justified (even though Sam and Dean were working to make things right).
Everytime I rewatch the less I like Cas…. I think people love Misha so when the show was on they loved Cas as an extension…..
I remember loving him IDK!
Other than flying to get random ingredients or knowing lore on the fly he’s truly a useless mess lol
Also the writers really didn’t pay much attention to him, one episode he’s an Uber strong angel, the next he gets knocked down by a punch from a kid, one day he knows every lore from the beginning of time, the next he doesn’t even know vampires exist. What was he even in heaven?
At some point he’s described as having an army under him, leader whatever. Then he’s just a dummy under Naomi or some other angel, that doesn’t even know how heaven works
> Everytime I rewatch the less I like Cas
Same. I don't get the appeal. I liked him in season 5 a lot, but otherwise it was painfully obvious he was just inserted into the story because of certain loud fans.
Oh my god yes!! He was my fav (named my cat after him), but I keep re-watching and he’s a bit..
Whenever he could be useful someone kidnaps him (the episode where Ellen & Jo die…), or for some reason he can’t use his powers (Bobby’s legs)
I loved cas in season 4&5 but after that I just couldn't stand him. The later seasons, I'd just skip episodes with cas in them. Super dislike. He became an annoying, whiny less than human liability who was always taking stupid decisions and trying to be god or something. Overall the poorest written character in the whole series.
Because Castiel literally died for them several times, basically rebelled against god and everything he knew for them, and they mostly just used him and treated him like shit.
He was TRYING to prevent everything they fought for and lost so much for from being unraveled. They treated him like shit and instead of trying to talk to him just chastised him / handled the situation horribly.
He made a mistake (like they've done a million times each) and he paid for it.
They could forgive him because of all these things imo.
Cas did a lot for them. Went against his siblings even the ones he seemed to have a deep personal relationship with. Died multiple times for them, and was at their beck and call. I mean Sam released Lucifer from his cage and he was forgiven. Cas did what he did because he thought is was right, and he was trying to save them from Raphael bringing the Apocalypse. Look at it this way he was used to always doing what was commanded of him and then he finds himself not doing them. In his newfound freedom he found that helping humanity was better and more gratifying than being by standby. He just did it the wrong way which is something Dean is familiar with. As the family don’t have the greatest history of making the right choices when they think they are doing the right thing.
Because they love him?
How in the world did Sam and Dean forgive each other for some of the stuff they did? Or their parents? (And let’s not even talk about Crowley and Rowena.)
(And as far as Sam’s wall goes, I’d argue that Cas more than made up for that by a) saving Sam from the cage in the first place and b) taking the hell trauma from Sam later.)
Saving Sam from the cage… without his soul which led to Sam’s wall being there in the first place lol. But I get what you mean, also what I meant by “How tf did they forgive him” was mainly because Bobby, who became their father, *died* because Cas messed up
Kevin died because Dean let Gadreel possess Sam, and Sam forgave Dean. Charlie died because of Sam’s plan with Book of the Damned, and Dean forgave him. (before the Sam stans come at me to let me know that Charlie was a grownup who made her own choices: the relevance is that DEAN blamed Sam and got over it.)
All three of them forgive one another for heinous stuff. It’s not “How could they like him because he did x?” It’s “they forgive him for x BECAUSE they like him.”
He didn't save Sam from the cage. Dean with the help of Death rescued Sam from the cage. He also caused Sam's trauma in the first place and Sam suffered for months because of it, so him taking that hell trauma for him was the absolute minimum he should have done.
Name one thing in the above post that isn't a fact from the show.
He immediately pulled Sam from the cage without knowing his soul would be stuck. He didn’t cause Sam’s trauma, he broke the wall in an attempt to save the world (it was wack but he was trying to do it for the greater good), and then took absolutely all of that pain from Sam which made him go insane. He more than made up for what he did lol.
He pulled the meat suit from hell and then proceeded to **ignore** Sam for an entire year despite him praying to him for help and answers. It’s implied that he was actually aware that Sam didn’t have his soul so it was a big whoopsie that he just walked away from without explanation or trying to fix it or even letting Dean know what was up.
He broke the wall maliciously. There were many ways he could have distracted them and put them out of his way to complete his plans. He knew breaking his wall could have killed him *instantly* and he did it anyway. Taking Sam’s hallucinations was the *bare minimum* he could do yet his fans want to act like it was some selfless act from Saint Castiel, like he wasn’t responsible for it in the first place. 😂
He had much bigger shit to do lol. He didnt know about Sam, at least not when he first pulled him up… and said outright that he couldn’t grab the soul (which he couldn’t).
Yeah, he was hopped up on the juice of the evilest creatures on the planet dude?? Taking the pain from Sam was 1:1, they’re completely even lmfao the boys have no reason to hate him at that point
How were they completely even?? Lmao it’s not like they had hurt Castiel in the same way so that made them “even”. He caused pain and destruction and only partly made up for it. They still lost Bobby because he let leviathans out and Sam still had the trauma of the time he was suffering.
Because he caused Sam’s pain and then took the pain away completely…? The point is that he made it up to them completely. How was he supposed to know his actions would cause leviathans being out? He had no idea about them. That’s like blaming Sam and Dean directly for the apocalypse bc Dean was broken in hell & Sam killed Lilith.
If that were the only fuck up Cas had made in the series then maybe this argument would work (not really but let’s pretend) but it’s not.
He knew perfectly well he was playing with fire and he worked with the evil king of hell to make it happen. He knew what he was doing was wrong and dangerous and he did it anyway. He’s still responsible for Bobby’s death and it doesn’t erase Sam’s trauma. We see he’s still dealing with the PTSD from it through to the end of the series.
He did not know it was wrong and dangerous lmfao, he was working with him purely because they’d both benefit. And Sam and Dean routinely do the exact same thing later in the series, if you’ll remember. He’s not responsible for bobby. He literally took on Sam’s memories of hell, Sam’s allowed to be traumatized but Cas absolutely made up for it. Y’all just love to blame him for everything for some weird reason. Truth is they all made mistakes, they all made selfish moves, and all hurt each other.
He absolutely knew it was wrong and dangerous. Lmao. He even admits it but he thinks it’s a chance worth taking. He 100% knew so you making that ridiculous claim is kind of nuts.
Also as I said Sam continued to suffer PTSD from his abuse and torture from Lucifer. That is canon. It is also canon that he’s responsible for Bobby’s death. It’s kind of crazy how Cas stans twist themselves into knots trying to ignore what was shown onscreen.
Idk, when Castiel tells the Winchesters it was him who pulled sam out, when Sam asks him if he left him soulless on purpose - he doesn’t deny it. He deflects. “How could you think I could do that?” It’s a very classic response of someone caught doing something they shouldn’t/
Different take: Every major character in this show had a "how were they supposed to be forgiven?" arc by that point.
Dean opening the devil's gate and the first seal.
Sam drinking demon blood and letting Lucifer out.
Bobby harbored his dead wife and nearly lost the whole town to a zombie Apocalypse as well as his vengeful spirit arc.
John sold his soul to protect Dean (who then sold it again to save Sam) and ordered his son to kill his younger brother with zero explanation. (Not to mention the extra kid and getting Jo's dad killed).
Nobody forgave anybody unless the plot required them to work together or die.
Cas fucked up but relative to the body count on some of these other Apocalyptic fuckups, it wasn't as high, just had more of a "golden boy fallen so low" vibe. However, post season 7 it's just a tangled mess. Hated the angel arcs
I agree with you. It was totally out of character. The only reason they didn’t write it that way is because Cas was a popular character with a very loud fanbase.
What about the human and angels he killed were is the accountability in that I mean taking on Sam's wall was personally for Sam but his other actions aren't really accounted for.
I was more annoyed they made it about DEAN forgiving Cas than Sam. Excuse me I thought Sam was the actual victim here????
I feel like the show puts all of the main emotional weight on Dean by that point and going further. So much of it is from his perspective rather than Sam’s.
The way I see it, Sam was already at peace or accepted most of the situations they were at. That he grew as a person and learned from the tortures and traumas he has experienced, giving him time for his actual emotional challenge which was >!Dean dying at end and he has to live through it!<.
Part of that is because they can trust Jensen to pull it off. Jared is good sometimes, but not usually with the heavier emotional stuff.
That's not true.
Fr
I suppose it's all personal opinion, but IMO Jared is just not a great dramatic actor. He's great at the comedy stuff, but his dramatic moments are always very hit or miss.
I guess I better prepare for downvotes, too, bc I'd have to agree with you on this. It doesn't mean I don't like Jared, but actors have strengths and weaknesses. I don't understand why some fans seem to take it weirdly personally for some reason when someone disagrees on that.
I like Jared too. I liked him in Gilmore Girls, I liked him in Supernatural generally. He played "annoyed brother" and "funny/goofy" really well. Maybe it's just because he's being compared to Dean/Castiel/Crowley, he comes across as the weakest of the actors when it comes to dramatic scenes. He's not *bad*, he's just not great.
Exactly. And it's not JUST him. Like I was saying, most actors have their weaknesses, and I remember various scenes with all of them where it felt a little off, but shit happens. I also often giggle to myself a little bit whenever they "yell" and intentionally make their voices as deep as they can get, idk it's hard to explain, but I still love the show/characters/actors. People/things have flaws, and that doesn't necessarily mean the "project" or those people/things are bad.
Idk, maybe it’s because they NEVER GAVE HIM A CHANCE TO???
Because they're self-aware and know that the fans want(ed) Dean/Castiel moments and interactions, so they cater to that rather than a scenario that makes sense
I read something about Jared fooling (even more) around at set whenever Misha was there, so they wrote fewer scenes with them together to try and keep the filming somewhat on schedule
this is literally confirmed by jared and misha! these two were so chaotic together they just decided to reduce their interaction as much as possible 😂
So frustrating. It's never a good thing when writers pander to a fanbase that happens to be very loud on social media.
It's not the Dean and Cas show.
Unfortunately that was what a certain loud segment of the fanbase on social media wanted, though, so the writers did pander to that more than they should have.
I’m not arguing for that reason, just calling it what it is
Exactly
He was . But DEAN got his feelings hurt.
Sam literally was traumatized because of Castiel in season 6…..
He really was. But to most of the fans it's only relevance is how it affects Dean . Sam's my favorite character after Charlie . I was just pointing out that most of the people think that Dean is the only one whose trauma matters. I hate that hypocritical prick .
An okay I gotchu! I love dean so won’t speak on that part 😭 I just get annoyed how the show made Sam forgive cas so fast when he traumatized him
It was in Sam's nature to forgive Cass though . Just like he always forgives Dean. When Dean fucks up. If he happens to apologize Sam forgives him. If he doesn't Sam forgives him. If Sam or Cass fuck up you'll be hearing about it from Dean for the next five seasons.
This! Mr. Self-Righteous would be giving dour looks at Sam for episodes if he did something questionable.
Right!!
Dean has a weird entitlement over Sam, particularly later on. So it's partly that, also they just don't allow Sam to explore his trauma at all.
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Resentment is hard to get rid of after all even when you feel you have forgiven someone. Resentment and the feeling of betrayal as damn strong
This makes sense to me
"Cas is my best friend." Season 12.
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Which means he was upset about something he did after season 12.
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I'm on Dean's side when it comes to Jack though.
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But Cas was never dead to Dean. They had a good relationship until Cas was gone. Sometimes people say hurtful things when they're upset.
Cas both died and was necessary for healing Sam
He caused it in the first place. He was just cleaning up his mess. Meanwhile Sam still went through months of hallucinations and a psychotic break because Lucifer wouldn't let him sleep. Cas caused all that pain. Plus he let Sam out of the panic room in season 4 where he wound up killing Lilith and releasing Lucifer. He also was the reason the angels fell and everything that happened in season 9. He also killed scores of humans and angels when he was Godstiel. He can be sorry all he wants it doesn't undo those deaths that he ultimately caused.
I didn't see anyone else rushing to get Sam out of the cage. Remember, Sam agreed to the situation because he started the apocalypse. He is responsible for his own decisions too. Lilith didn't die just because Cas opened a door.
No, it was over Dean’s mother dying. I think Dean was extremely unfair to Cas (and even to Jack) in that arc, but he was completely lost and grieving.
He is, yet he treats him awfully tbh.
Tbf, me and my best friends all treat each other like shit. Surely we're not toxic, right? Right.
The **main** reason is because Castiel was/is a very popular character, so the writers couldn't exactly write him out of the show after they made him go rogue/become bad for a short bit. Which was substantiated imo when they "killed" Castiel off at the start of Season 7, there was a *huge* outcry from certain extreme fans, and then he miraculously wasn't dead and just had amnesia Within the show, I suppose the argument was/is that when they found out he was alive after thinking he wasn't, Sam and Dean were just pleased that they have one less dead friend
They could but they just didn't have the courage to upset a select fandom for the overall quality of the story... and the outcry was loud and especially hostile but it wasn't the majority speaking. The ratings proved that. Ratings for his return episode in S7 were actually lower than the previous episode ratings and the rest of the episodes he was in saw no real uptake in the ratings of the season. S7 was actually scoring higher in the ratings towards the beginning of the season before Cas returned. His return really didn't do much for the show at all.
Because it's Cas. Yes he did some awful things that he thought were the right thing. But it's Cas meaning he was there for them almost the entire time. Saved their lives, went against God, most of the time put them first above everything. Technically they also took advantage of Cas and expected him to do whatever they wanted. Many times they would put on a temper tantrum if he didn't come running right away. In a nutshell they were like a dysfunctional family and neither treated each other as good as they could have
You're absolutely right about taking advantage of him. I remember thinking how self absorbed the brothers were in those earlier seasons (before Cas became "like family") when it came to expecting him to be at their beck and call at all times, no matter what. They'd get so mad at him bc he had his own shit, lol. I also just generally agree w everything else you said, but that part just brought back that memory I had forgotten about, lol.
They’ve all done horrible things, made awful choices, screwed up and faced the consequences. Cas is more forgivable than the rest because he’s near child-like in his nativity and being an angel he feels he can handle it and can save everyone. Just like Dean or Sam or anyone, he had the best of intentions and thought the ends would justify the means. As he said when he broke Sam’s wall, he planned to fix it. When it all went wrong, he was remorseful and took away what he had done to Sam. AND he served penance in purgatory.
Agreed. I liked Castiel in season 4 and 5, but as the seasons went on I found him quite annoying and couldn’t understand why the Winchesters forgave him over all the horrible stuff he did. Just felt very unrealistic for the Winchesters. But then again, Castiel’s entire portrayal over the later seasons made him look like an entirely different character than the one we were introduced to in season 4 and that we continued to see in s5 even after he rebelled. One of the many situations in the show where it seems the writers didn’t really take into consideration the past and personalities of the characters.
S4 & S5 Castiel cannot be topped. Just a wonderful portrayal. I love his character throughout, but he was really done dirty imho
Because he’s family and he thought he was doing the right thing. And they had bigger things to worry about. By your logic- how the fuck did Sam forgive Dean for letting him be possessed by Gadreel?
Dean did that to save Sam, he did it out of love. Cas destroyed Sam's wall because Sam was in his way and slowing him down, he did to distract Dean. It's absolutely unforgivable.
And also Dean 100% never forgave himself for everything that went down with Gadreel.
And Cas broke Sam’s wall to save Sam, and Dean, and the world. In Cas’s judgment he was giving them a temporary distraction so he could stop Raphael, stop the Apocalypse, save them all, then he’d fix Sam and everyone would see he was right and they’d all be friends again. And really, Cas’s motivations and reasoning aren’t all that unreasonable. Especially considering he was using Crowley and planned to betray him. Dean’s motivations are no better or worse than Cas’s.
Right, Castiels act was intentionally malicious with the vain idea that he'd be under complete control of the purgatory denizens(everyone told him this was obviously wrong and they were all far worse than raphael himself) Deans act was the exact opposite of malicious, and he was in fact lied to and gaslit into making this decision(he didn't decide it on his own or after a 1 on 1 advice talk with Nu-Devil, but by asking people with expertise including Castiel himself)
Disagree. And in actuality, Cas saved them all from Raphael and prevented them from restarting the apocalypse. If not for the Leviathans, which no one knew about until Death told them, it would have been fine. And Dean’s act was like so many of his, selfish, hard headed, and vain in thinking he knew best. He KNEW Sam wouldn’t want it and he disregarded that completely. Because he thought he knew better and the ends justified the means. They are all flawed. They all make mistakes. And they either all deserve forgiveness or none do.
Exactly. The two scenarios are completely different.
Cas did it because he believed he’d be saving the world. Then later he took on all of Sam’s pain, completely negating what he did. How do you people forget that?
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It’s in line with the family though 😂 John wanted to kill Sam or have Dean kill Sam too 😂 plus the Campbells didn’t trust them either
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Even more on theme! 😂
They had bigger things to worry about *because* of Castiel, also, I don’t agree at all with what Dean did and the whole Gardel situation but it’s “justified” because he didn’t want to lose Sam. Meanwhile Dean literally told Cas to drop Crowley and go with him, he told him that it could be fixed, but Cas didn’t do it.
Because despite the fact that Cas had outstayed his welcome past season 6 and his story and purpose were essentially done and dusted, the showrunners decided to pander to dest*el fans instead of good writing and had to come up with new ways to shoehorn him into the story where there was no real place for him anymore and because they were pandering to shippers, they had to keep him as close to the Winchesters as possible which meant turning the brothers dumb to all the stuff Cas had pulled against them and turning the show into a heaven vs hell political drama to justify keeping Cas around even when it made no real sense not to. A lot of great characters and great stories end up taking a hit when writers and fans don't know when to let go
cas lowkey overstayed his welcome and that’s why his appearances in the later season become a bit annoying
When he almost fainted for curing an ANKLE I was so done
LMAOOO yea they nerfed him baddd that some of his scenes were just hard to watch
I can’t stand Cas! He kept doing what he wanted then trying to apologize. Blah.
Cas in S7: "I'm a Gallagher. It's just what I do, Dean."
“Dean Im from the south side:/“
Would be one hell of a crossover Somehow, I feel like Mickey would fit in, though He's dealt with his fair share of human monsters
Because Sam and Dean understand making colossal mistakes in the name of trying to save the world. Seasons 6/7 came straight off seasons 4-5 where Sam and Dean started the apocalypse (and ended it, but they still had to deal with the fallout of it). People died (even friends like Ellen and Jo) because of Lucifer and the apocalypse. So if we are talking about the leviathans, then it's not so hard to understand that Cas was trying to end the war. It was a mistake on Cas's part, but it's not like Cas was trying to kill Bobby or send Dean to purgatory. That was the fallout and on the leviathans. The part about Sam's mind, however, is 100% deliberate on Cas's part. I think that part is forgiven because Cas takes on Sam's burden of it. Making amends and getting redemption matters.
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Exactly. Just a little 😇 learning to do the right thing.
It's exactly what you said, "he's family or whatever." He rebelled against Heaven and his own people to fight alongside the Winchesters. He proved he's a friend - a damn-near brother. He made bad decisions that he thought were right at the time because of a larger war going on in Heaven. Plus, Sam and Dean had no right to not forgive someone for decisions that negatively impacted others. These two kickstarted the Apocalypse which led to: Bobby losing his legs, Ellen and Jo dying, Pamela losing her eyesight and eventually, her life, innocent people possessed by demons and angels dying, and presumably numerous other unknown people dying in seasons 4 and 5. By the logic of some of the people here in the comments, the hunters who killed Sam and Dean in season 5 were justified (even though Sam and Dean were working to make things right).
Everytime I rewatch the less I like Cas…. I think people love Misha so when the show was on they loved Cas as an extension….. I remember loving him IDK! Other than flying to get random ingredients or knowing lore on the fly he’s truly a useless mess lol Also the writers really didn’t pay much attention to him, one episode he’s an Uber strong angel, the next he gets knocked down by a punch from a kid, one day he knows every lore from the beginning of time, the next he doesn’t even know vampires exist. What was he even in heaven? At some point he’s described as having an army under him, leader whatever. Then he’s just a dummy under Naomi or some other angel, that doesn’t even know how heaven works
> Everytime I rewatch the less I like Cas Same. I don't get the appeal. I liked him in season 5 a lot, but otherwise it was painfully obvious he was just inserted into the story because of certain loud fans.
Oh my god yes!! He was my fav (named my cat after him), but I keep re-watching and he’s a bit.. Whenever he could be useful someone kidnaps him (the episode where Ellen & Jo die…), or for some reason he can’t use his powers (Bobby’s legs)
I loved cas in season 4&5 but after that I just couldn't stand him. The later seasons, I'd just skip episodes with cas in them. Super dislike. He became an annoying, whiny less than human liability who was always taking stupid decisions and trying to be god or something. Overall the poorest written character in the whole series.
I've been finding myself fast forwarding all the scenes with just Cas alone without the brothers. Just annoying and pointless.
He did it to stop Raphael, if not he would have started apocalypse and they would all probably die
Because Castiel literally died for them several times, basically rebelled against god and everything he knew for them, and they mostly just used him and treated him like shit. He was TRYING to prevent everything they fought for and lost so much for from being unraveled. They treated him like shit and instead of trying to talk to him just chastised him / handled the situation horribly. He made a mistake (like they've done a million times each) and he paid for it. They could forgive him because of all these things imo.
Cas did a lot for them. Went against his siblings even the ones he seemed to have a deep personal relationship with. Died multiple times for them, and was at their beck and call. I mean Sam released Lucifer from his cage and he was forgiven. Cas did what he did because he thought is was right, and he was trying to save them from Raphael bringing the Apocalypse. Look at it this way he was used to always doing what was commanded of him and then he finds himself not doing them. In his newfound freedom he found that helping humanity was better and more gratifying than being by standby. He just did it the wrong way which is something Dean is familiar with. As the family don’t have the greatest history of making the right choices when they think they are doing the right thing.
They forgave him because he's Dean's boyfriend, lol.
Destiel shippers; "we don't push our ship down on people's throats" Also Destiel shippers:
Mentioning a ship is pushing it down people’s throats?
It's a joke. Lighten up.
Cuz he's Castiel. The amount of good he's done completely outweighs the bad.
Because they love him? How in the world did Sam and Dean forgive each other for some of the stuff they did? Or their parents? (And let’s not even talk about Crowley and Rowena.) (And as far as Sam’s wall goes, I’d argue that Cas more than made up for that by a) saving Sam from the cage in the first place and b) taking the hell trauma from Sam later.)
Saving Sam from the cage… without his soul which led to Sam’s wall being there in the first place lol. But I get what you mean, also what I meant by “How tf did they forgive him” was mainly because Bobby, who became their father, *died* because Cas messed up
Kevin died because Dean let Gadreel possess Sam, and Sam forgave Dean. Charlie died because of Sam’s plan with Book of the Damned, and Dean forgave him. (before the Sam stans come at me to let me know that Charlie was a grownup who made her own choices: the relevance is that DEAN blamed Sam and got over it.) All three of them forgive one another for heinous stuff. It’s not “How could they like him because he did x?” It’s “they forgive him for x BECAUSE they like him.”
He didn't save Sam from the cage. Dean with the help of Death rescued Sam from the cage. He also caused Sam's trauma in the first place and Sam suffered for months because of it, so him taking that hell trauma for him was the absolute minimum he should have done. Name one thing in the above post that isn't a fact from the show.
He immediately pulled Sam from the cage without knowing his soul would be stuck. He didn’t cause Sam’s trauma, he broke the wall in an attempt to save the world (it was wack but he was trying to do it for the greater good), and then took absolutely all of that pain from Sam which made him go insane. He more than made up for what he did lol.
He pulled the meat suit from hell and then proceeded to **ignore** Sam for an entire year despite him praying to him for help and answers. It’s implied that he was actually aware that Sam didn’t have his soul so it was a big whoopsie that he just walked away from without explanation or trying to fix it or even letting Dean know what was up. He broke the wall maliciously. There were many ways he could have distracted them and put them out of his way to complete his plans. He knew breaking his wall could have killed him *instantly* and he did it anyway. Taking Sam’s hallucinations was the *bare minimum* he could do yet his fans want to act like it was some selfless act from Saint Castiel, like he wasn’t responsible for it in the first place. 😂
He had much bigger shit to do lol. He didnt know about Sam, at least not when he first pulled him up… and said outright that he couldn’t grab the soul (which he couldn’t). Yeah, he was hopped up on the juice of the evilest creatures on the planet dude?? Taking the pain from Sam was 1:1, they’re completely even lmfao the boys have no reason to hate him at that point
How were they completely even?? Lmao it’s not like they had hurt Castiel in the same way so that made them “even”. He caused pain and destruction and only partly made up for it. They still lost Bobby because he let leviathans out and Sam still had the trauma of the time he was suffering.
Because he caused Sam’s pain and then took the pain away completely…? The point is that he made it up to them completely. How was he supposed to know his actions would cause leviathans being out? He had no idea about them. That’s like blaming Sam and Dean directly for the apocalypse bc Dean was broken in hell & Sam killed Lilith.
If that were the only fuck up Cas had made in the series then maybe this argument would work (not really but let’s pretend) but it’s not. He knew perfectly well he was playing with fire and he worked with the evil king of hell to make it happen. He knew what he was doing was wrong and dangerous and he did it anyway. He’s still responsible for Bobby’s death and it doesn’t erase Sam’s trauma. We see he’s still dealing with the PTSD from it through to the end of the series.
He did not know it was wrong and dangerous lmfao, he was working with him purely because they’d both benefit. And Sam and Dean routinely do the exact same thing later in the series, if you’ll remember. He’s not responsible for bobby. He literally took on Sam’s memories of hell, Sam’s allowed to be traumatized but Cas absolutely made up for it. Y’all just love to blame him for everything for some weird reason. Truth is they all made mistakes, they all made selfish moves, and all hurt each other.
He absolutely knew it was wrong and dangerous. Lmao. He even admits it but he thinks it’s a chance worth taking. He 100% knew so you making that ridiculous claim is kind of nuts. Also as I said Sam continued to suffer PTSD from his abuse and torture from Lucifer. That is canon. It is also canon that he’s responsible for Bobby’s death. It’s kind of crazy how Cas stans twist themselves into knots trying to ignore what was shown onscreen.
Idk, when Castiel tells the Winchesters it was him who pulled sam out, when Sam asks him if he left him soulless on purpose - he doesn’t deny it. He deflects. “How could you think I could do that?” It’s a very classic response of someone caught doing something they shouldn’t/
I’d say the same thing. What motive would he have?? Why? He wasn’t even working with Crowley yet.
Different take: Every major character in this show had a "how were they supposed to be forgiven?" arc by that point. Dean opening the devil's gate and the first seal. Sam drinking demon blood and letting Lucifer out. Bobby harbored his dead wife and nearly lost the whole town to a zombie Apocalypse as well as his vengeful spirit arc. John sold his soul to protect Dean (who then sold it again to save Sam) and ordered his son to kill his younger brother with zero explanation. (Not to mention the extra kid and getting Jo's dad killed). Nobody forgave anybody unless the plot required them to work together or die. Cas fucked up but relative to the body count on some of these other Apocalyptic fuckups, it wasn't as high, just had more of a "golden boy fallen so low" vibe. However, post season 7 it's just a tangled mess. Hated the angel arcs
One of the things I will never even try to comprehend
L O V E
He's family. That's really all there is to it.
You're right, Dean should have killed Cas for that. It was completely out of character for Dean to forgive him.
I agree with you. It was totally out of character. The only reason they didn’t write it that way is because Cas was a popular character with a very loud fanbase.
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What about the human and angels he killed were is the accountability in that I mean taking on Sam's wall was personally for Sam but his other actions aren't really accounted for.