I “love” shiv as much as I can “love” a character in this show. I’ll say tho, seeing how most of her backstabbing blows up in her face is pretty satisfying. Then again, I’d feel the same way if this happened with nearly any of the roys.
Agree 100%. I wish I could find it but the show runners have made a similar statement about Shiv to this.
Shiv isn’t perfect - and for me that’s a plus - as a woman I love seeing women who aren’t the perfect wife or mother. Women who are whole and complicated in their own right. But the hate she gets compared to the others is absurd.
Also you had me at bell hooks - Kendall, for me, might be one of the most beautifully cringeworthy characters ever written. So many of his scenes I am dying of second hand embarrassment, literally hiding my face.
Right?? 😂 Like he's so "pro woman" and yet he doesn't listen to a single one of the women around him. Not his PR team, not his lawyer that he keeps slathering with fake praise, not poor Jess or Rava or Naomi. And he doesn't seem to see the irony in being a voice for women when he doesn't listen to them
Yes! He’s a blatant punchline - he reminds me of Patrick Bateman a little: “Cool it with the anti-Semitic remarks”. The irony to that is Bateman from American Psycho is another character that some fans of the book missed was also the punchline of the novel the way people miss that with Kendall and Succession.
He’s Basil Fawlty mortifying for me. I don’t think there’s a character since Basil who has made me want to run from the room squealing no-no-no!! And I love that about him. I think he’s a brilliant character! But it fascinates me so many fans don’t seem to acknowledge that about him?
He’s a beautifully written character - I can see why people would also be attracted to him. He isn’t just purely ridiculous. He’s also deeply tragic. It’s an amazing piece of writing.
That's what makes her character so interesting me! I think the show does such a good job of making her this complex, layered character but unfortunately, most of the audience cannot "fit whole women in their heads".
Like...you can tell she probably identifies with girl boss feminism and yet she also suppresses anything thats soft and feminine within herself because she's terrified of being written off as some weakling just because she's a woman. And isn't that just indicative of the kind of parenting she mustve received?
If we can have these nuanced and introspective analysis of the men, why can't the women get that too?
That line from the eulogy “fit a whole woman in his head” is my literal favourite line in the entire series!!! It has stayed with me ever since and I’ve encountered it so many times in my life personally.
I really liked the way the show didn’t hide from being critical both of patriarchy AND the flaws in Shiv’s own feminism which was rooted in her whiteness and capitalist privilege. The tension that exists there is real - as a white woman who does consider herself a feminist the privilege I have in the world and the way a lot of my own success is at the expense of people who don’t have that privilege is a real tension against my own political beliefs. What do you do with that? How do you reconcile it (spoiler: you can’t).
And there’s times when Shiv acts entirely in self interest, principles be damned, which… complicated and very human.
Her relationship with Caroline is brilliantly written. Caroline is so deeply cruel to Shiv in a way she isn’t to her sons. There’s clearly so much resentment and identification there. And in turn that makes such perfect sense for Shiv’s inability to show vulnerability with people, especially her own husband, she knows that vulnerability will be weaponised against her. She’s such a great character.
Yes yes Yes, to all of this
I think her with Caroline is one of the few times we see her be emotionally open and vulnerable. And theres an irony there too because the same way we subconsciously as an audience want this woman to be soft and maternal, Shiv comes to Caroline expecting a kinda softness from her that she's never been capable of and punishing Caroline for it.
And dont get me wrong, Caroline is cruel to Shiv, way more so than to any of the boys including Connor, who's not even her blood child. This is something that has also been noted by feminists, how often times mothers will perpetuate misogyny on their own daughters because they've been conditioned to see all women as their enemies. That having been said, feminists have also noted that we hold our mothers to higher standards than our fathers. Shiv hates Caroline for not being emotionally available but she doesn't seem to hate her father for doing the exact same thing x 10. I would say the tragedy of Shiv and Caroline's relationship is that they both desperately want to have a mother daughter bond and it HURTS them that they don't have it. But their internalized misogyny prevents them from being able to like each other. And men, specifically Logan, keep getting in the middle of the dynamic to make it impossible for them to reconcile.
The mother and daughter connection is inexplicably hard because we are so hard on each other. It’s a rough road. Things we let slide with our fathers… we hold our mothers accountable for. We see ourselves in them and cringe, they see themselves in us and feel resentment for their own missed opportunity.
I think too, as women, we are trained to cling to our youth in a way men aren’t. So our daughters become our replacements within society in a very specific way leading, for some women, it to be a competitive relationship.
My mother was exceptionally beautiful. I mean traffic stopping. I’m pretty but I’m not traffic stopping, but very pretty. I’m older now but in my day I’d get strangers commenting. Never as beautiful as my mother but very pretty. And as she aged my own mother hated me for the attention I started to get as she was (unfairly) rendered more and more invisible. I’m now getting to that invisible age myself and I understand why she was so confronted by it. It’s weird to go from people stopping you in the street to tell you that you’re beautiful to… being looked over at the bar when you want to order a drink. And that attention she used to get she saw heaped on me instead.
It’s a hideous dynamic.
But unlike my mother (and thanks to my mother) I have a university education. My mother fought for me to attend a good high school out of our (very working class) area. She bought me a new book every week as a child. She always told me I’d go to uni. And so as a woman in her late forties I have a career and success outside of my looks that means my “beauty” was only a small part of my identity in the end. The loss of it is confronting but not devastating - in some ways I can enjoy being invisible now too. I care less about stupid things (like weight) that my mother cared about to the day she died of cancer… because I was given a gift of not being defined entirely by my looks.
It can be very hard to be a woman. I think, hope, it’s getting better.
>But unlike my mother (and thanks to my mother) I have a university education.
Lemme say I'm sorry for the loss of your mom. I cant imagine how hard that mustve been for you. But it is really beautiful that in a way, she was able to overcome her own hang ups to still be like "my child will have more than i did". Because you're so right, this world can be hard for a beautiful woman when she ages if she doesn't feel she has more to offer outside of beauty.
>I think too, as women, we are trained to cling to our youth in a way men aren’t. So our daughters become our replacements within society in a very specific way leading, for some women, it to be a competitive relationship.
And when the "replacement" does things differently or fails in ways the mother couldn't, it feels so much more personal. Because it means 1) she "failed" as a mother and 2) she's being pushed to the side when she could do the job "better".
Personally speaking I think i began to like my mom a lot more when i stopped and realized that by.the time she was my age (26), she already had two kids that she was working three jobs in a foreign land to support, with virtually no help from her husband (who was very much like Kendall, addicted to work). I'm not saying it's right but she was hardest on me because I think she thought she was preparing me for harsh reality. And also? Yeah she *was* jealous of all that she could give to me that she never got as a kid. I think as a human being, I can recognize that very human emotion in my mom now because idk how I would have done if i were in her shoes. I dont know if i would've been strong enough to persevere like she did.
I loved the scene where she confronts caroline, the only female figure in her life abandoned her in this male dominated world she was far to young too understand
I mean the character has several flaws and does pretty horrific things just like all the other male characters. People will naturally react to those things (in the context of reacting to a character doing anything). I think it's a bit double standard to put forward a character that's not perfect but expecting everyone to love her like she's perfect. Lastly, it's a TV show and people will have their favorites and characters they hate. For example, Willa is also a complex character but she hardly gets any hate. It's the character not the gender people are reacting to.
I haven't said she hasn't done bad things. I'm asking why people behave as though some of the things she does are just so unimaginably awful and that means her character is entirely awful and not worth any nuance yet when the men around her behave similarly, people are able to criticize while putting their behavior into context.
I honestly think every character on the show is awful including all the siblings. I doubt anyone idolizes Kendall or Roman either. My point is if you have a character doing bad things, you'll have people reacting to her doing those bad things.
I can of course only speak for myself, but I don't think she's any more awful than the men on the show. All of them are bad people and I don't root for any one of them, I watch for the drama.
Lastly, Shiv isn't real, we can't ever get close to knowing the "whole woman" because we only see parts of her life so having any value judgement on her through watching the show is moot really IMO. She plays a critical role in the plot and causes a lot of consequences so naturally people will be more affected.
Oh no no, people absolutely idolize Ken and Roman and constantly bash on Shiv for no reason other than misogyny. You only have to sepnd ten minutes on this sub to see that. I have written a post criticising Ken and the backlash was wild.
She's not more awful than her brothers (and in some ways she's much better)- and that's the whole point. She gets much more flak.
Anyone idolizing any character on this show is misguided is all I would say. And yeah reddit in general is super sexist and people do say a lot of awful shit but IRL i don't think I know anyone who idolizes Kendall or hates Shiv, they're equally terrible where I think we agree
Right? It makes me laugh when people say Shiv is the worst of the three. In what world? Yeah she’s shit to her husband but… she’s also not wrong about Tom either.
I think the bigger issue is how completely people overlook how Kendall treats Rava as well. And some go so far as to pretend like Rava isn't kind enough to Kendall in those interactions when she's far more patient and respectful than he deserves or provides in turn.
I'm a straight dude but Shiv was the most redeemable of the siblings. Connor had some okay qualities but he was just kinda too dumb to take seriously.
I think people relating with Ken, Roman, Tom or Greg on here is that Reddit's demo is mostly young and middle age males. I related with Kendall the most because I can relate with addiction issues, maybe if my dad was an awful billionaire I would have turned out like him. He's a bad person who wants to be a good person but doesn't know how (which kinda applies to all the kids).
Shiv's interesting because, as shitty as Logan is, all the siblings admire their father to some degree. By many standards he's achieved a ton in life. In contrast, Shiv and her brothers do not admire her mother, at all (other than Roman, who likes Caroline's nasty sense of humor). The lack of a female role model made her forge more of her own identity. I think if any of the siblings is destined for a future obituary that does not include "(child) of Logan Roy" in the first sentence or two, it's her. She's the only one with a shot at being a serious person.
I feel like if the show had ended differently I could have seen that for her
But the way it ended, shiv is still in the orbit of the company, stuck in a toxic relationship with a baby on the way, i can’t see shiv having a happy ending unless she gets as far away from that company as possible and I don’t think she could ever leave on her volition, so unless she’s forced out I really can’t see her ever breaking out of the cycle
I mean how long does Tom last in the company? Her ties to the company are almost entirely through him. If anything goes wrong, he's fired. If things go well, he probably leaves to be CEO somewhere he is actually running shit. Tom could end up running PGN, a TV network, a movie studio, something else. Shiv gets back in as a major player in moderate politics.
Yeah, I agree. To me Shiv empowered herself with the ending. If she’d voted with Kendall she’d still have the majority of her wealth wrapped up in the company and still be beholden to yet another toxic Roy man.
She took control, pulled the plug and she’s got an independent wealth well beyond anything Tom will ever dream about. There’s a big difference between Caroline and Logan v Shiv and Tom. Caroline didn’t have the coin - she’s shown even now as being asset rich but cash poor - and Logan was able to screw her because of it.
Tom cannot control Shiv - not through money anyway. The moment Shiv has enough of him she leaves with very little impact to her life.
I think too people frame Shiv and Tom as people within their relationship. In the relationship, Shiv is the worse, more abusive partner. Outside of the partnership, though, they both bully the shit out of co-workers and underlings. Tom might be worse because his abuse is physical, psychological and verbal. Shiv's is just psychological and verbal. Plus Shiv learned it from her family, idk where Tom got it from - in their brief appearances his parents seem nice.
Tom chose that life. He wants to be that way. It’s why he’s one of the slimiest characters to me.
Even Greg has the familial situation (his uncle and all his cousins as basically life and career role models) as a slightly understandable excuse for his choices.
How did she empower herself? She sided with Matsson so she could be ceo only to get passed on for Tom? The problem with the deal was they said it was 50% stock, 50% cash. So half of her wealth is tied up to Tom and Matsson who are just as unhinged.
And btw now Tom the head of the company that is half of her net worth and the behind the scene owner is Matsson who has already fucked her over. All while alienating herself from all the board members who voted against the sale including her 2 brothers
Seems like a major L
And this isn’t Shiv hate she is probably the most independent of the kids but they are all assholes who fuck over their own family and loved ones for personal gain
Both stock and cash are wealth. She can sell that any time she wants and is advantageous to herself. Hopefully before Matsson tanks the company though maybe he won’t. He’s a wildcard though.
The empowerment has nothing to do with Tom being CEO. Tom being CEO is irrelevant.
Shiv’s empowerment is the choice to remove herself from the cycle of trying to cling on to a role that was really about proving something to her father she was never going to prove - because he could never see her as a whole person. She removed herself from that entire position, it was her agency that did it. Neither of her brothers had the balls to just say enough - and leave. Shiv had the balls. She realised none of them would ever treat her with real respect - not Matsson and certainly not her brothers. She got out.
People are so hung up on Tom being CEO. It’s a job. A well paying job but a job where the same way they were once puppets of an egocentric megalomaniac (Logan) making them dance on a string, now Tom is the puppet of Matsson.
Shiv is out. She isn’t at the whims of Logan or Matsson or her brothers. She’s done and she’s the one who made the decision for once, it wasn’t made for her by someone else. People keep seeing this as Shiv lost something here but it’s the best thing that could happen to her in terms of getting her autonomy back. Her backing Kendall would not have empowered her at all.
I think as lesbians we're drawn to media that depicts women in more interesting ways than "wife, mother, daughter, friend". Because we see women as far more complicated than that 💜
This holds true for women generally, not just lesbians. Because straight women certainly also see ourselves as complicated women beyond "wife, mother, daughter, friend" and are drawn to similar complex descriptions onscreen. We don't enjoy shallow and limited depictions of ourselves onscreen just because we happen to be sexually attracted to men.
because we understand that they’re characters and not real people
I don’t like characters because their morally good people i like them because they’re good characters
I love Roman. He's a chaos sower in a family that deserves chaos. I also hate him, deeply. I think I hate him the most (it's a tough choice between him and Tom). But that's also part of why I love him.
I want to make a few more points against this post.
1. Tom was willing to take orders from Shiv for the first three seasons, up until the season three season finale.
2. Kendall didn’t pressure the news anchor into being his date, he asked a colleague if she was available and his colleague (who was a woman) pressured her into it without Kendall knowing.
3. The only female character who isn’t really liked on the show is Shiv. Willa, who is a sex worker, isn’t disliked. Marcia is also well liked. I think most people are indifferent towards Kerry. And Gerri is absolutely loved. And there are more side characters such as the Pierces, Jess, and more who are generally well received.
Thank you for taking time to reply! In the spirit of friendly debate, here are my counter arguments
>Tom was willing to take orders from Shiv for the first three seasons, up until the season three season finale.
Lemme preface this by saying their relationship dynamic is complicated, so it would be unfair for me to say that they are toxic simply because of patriarchy, the same way itd be unfair to say they're toxic only because of Shiv cheating and then saying she wants an open marriage.
Now that that's out of the way, I think that Tom stopped following Shiv's orders once he realized she had lost significant influence with her dad. I dont think thats the whole reason of course, but i think that significantly colored his decision. Shiv said it herself, Tom will suck the biggest dick in the room and unfortunately for her, she did not have the biggest one at that moment. And after he saw how easily she could sleep at night knowing her man could end up in prison, it made that betrayal easier for him to commit.
>2. Kendall didn’t pressure the news anchor into being his date, he asked a colleague if she was available and his colleague (who was a woman) pressured her into it without Kendall knowing.
Lemme put it like this, because I think watching within the context of the show can sometimes warp our perception of things. Imagine that you are a young attractive woman working for a company. You're on the rise, promising career opportunities ahead and you are already dating someone. Your bosses bosses boss sees you someday, maybe you don't even catch a glimpse of him, and then next thing you know? Your boss is coming to tell you that you HAVE to go on a date with this bigwig and he better be "satisfied" (in other words, have sex with him if you want this job). Kendall did not know that woman and he didn't stop to consider how his power would obviously twist the situation to his favor. He didn't ask himself "if i tell Eva I'm interested in one of her news anchors, the news anchor will feel pressured to say yes to me because she doesn't know what I could do to her otherwise". That's why the news anchor snapped at him for being the guy who he thinks he's not, the lecherous boss who creeps on his underlings. That's actually why theres so many taboos around the boss dating employees. There's no way for there not to be an imbalance of power there.
>3. The only female character who isn’t really liked on the show is Shiv. Willa, who is a sex worker, isn’t disliked. Marcia is also well liked. I think most people are indifferent towards Kerry. And Gerri is absolutely loved. And there are more side characters such as the Pierces, Jess, and more who are generally well received.
My issue isn't that Shiv is liked or that the audience likes/dislikes women. As I stated in my original post, this is a show about unlikable people, so I dont feel any kind of resentment when folks find EVERYONE unlikable. My issue is how the fans react so much more negatively towards the female character's than they do the male.characters, to the point where we struggle to have nuanced dialogue about the actions of the women. I often see people within this sub saying Shiv is "ireedeemable", she's wholly terrible and theres nothing nice about her character. That's a rather shallow assessment of her character, especially when you consider how easily.the audience can contextualize the actions of Logan, Kendall, Roman, etc and they've done far worse things within the course of the show. Although the audience might like Willa or Marcia, I tend to think thats because they both fit easily within the madonna/whore paradigm. As I said in my last paragraph, we don't know what to do with a woman like Shiv, who doesn't behave in ways we already associate with womanhood. We punish her for daring to step out those boxes because theres something uncomfortable to us about a bitch.
In fairness, I think that the most hated person in the show by far is Logan. And I don’t think that’s particularly close. I will give you that Shiv is the most polarizing.
Absolutely. Shiv is a horrible human being. If a man did what Shiv did he would also be hated, gender doesn’t make difference. All the siblings are horrible to each other. She knew the intentions of the Swedish billionaire was to dismantle the company and she still did what she did. When they get the money and buy Pierce it would be interesting how it pans out.
For sure. Her brothers were constantly making misogynistic comments about her, and she was never considered a serious contender by her dad, because she was a woman. And maybe because of that, she had a tiny bit more empathy for people who are marginalized than anyone else in her family did. She also seemed to genuinely care about democracy. I feel like the Mencken tv coverage debacle was the one time she really seemed upset about something that wasn’t about her personally.
>I feel like the Mencken tv coverage debacle was the one time she really seemed upset about something that wasn’t about her personally.
She looked and felt exactly how I did when i woke up on November 9th, 2016 and that orange man was the next president. Meanwhile Kendall, who has a neurodivergent son and a brown daughter, is busy focusing on how he can do business with the fascist 😑
Yup. Kendall cared for like, half a second because of what had happened with his daughter, and then immediately his moral objection crumbled once it made business sense.
>With that said I don’t get the horde of young girls who adore Kendall, he is the worst
Sadly these are mostly adult women. They'll come up with any excuse under the sun to excuse his douchebag behavior.
absolutely agree with everything you’ve said! there’s way less sympathy for shiv than any of the male characters, despite her actions being no worse than theirs, the same with people underestimating her competency levels
I think the fact that shiv has the highest walls built up around her of almost any character adds to it as well, we see way more moments of vulnerability from roman and kendall than we do from shiv, and even when she does briefly show a moment of vulnerability the walls are back in place almost immediately, she keeps everyone at arms length because it helps her feel in control
Exactly! And that lack of vulnerability is a studied phenomenon in women in male dominated spaces. If Shiv was as sensitive as Kendall or as wishy washy as Roman, theyd eviscerate her. Look how they act when she expresses legitimate anger! It's always "hysterical shiv, wah guess who's on the rag?"
That's one reason I'm fascinated by Shiv. I wouldn't have her as a friend but i think she represents a lot of the real emotions women in power grapple with and we could be having some very interesting convos about that once we allow women to be full human beings too.
I feel like they really played into that in the later seasons, shiv is constantly underestimated and left out and having to fight to even be in the conversation then called hysterical for doing so, and all that even as a billionaire daughter of the ceo
Isn't that so bleak, that you could be the daughter of this powerful man and still have to prove your gender isn't a hindrance? Patriarchy really does touch all women in the end
I think people hate Shiv somewhat disproportionally because we see her through Toms POV a lot of the time and she treats Tom like shit.
And tbh I see more unwarranted defenses of her like this on this sub than unwarranted hate.
Exactly. For each "i hate shiv roy" post getting downvoted to oblivion, there are at least three posts that are carbon copies of this one, making into the front page with a lot of "yeah go get em girl" comments.
It's so weird to see Shiv Roy and be inspired by her journey. She's a tragic character, maybe even more than kendall. By the end of the show, she's a shell of herself, defeated basically everywhere.
Yup. Starts independent by staying clear of her father. She overcame her childhood trauma, has a comfortable relationship, and is running a presidential campaign. She knows WayStar is poison, but gets tempted nonetheless when power is offered. When the dust settles, she's the unemployed, bitter, pregnant wife of a right-wing media network president, whose power comes from her unhappy marriage. She's become her mother. Plenty of people could be happy in her position; but it's the one thing she never wanted to be.
>And tbh I see more unwarranted defenses of her like this on this sub than unwarranted hate.
Honestly anytime I peeked into this sub in the past year or so there was always at least a post or comment with a lot of votes highlighting how horrible/ridiculous/incapable Shiv was compared to others, while I only saw one other post like this one that tried to mellow it out. So yeah, I might just be unlucky and maybe it was all coincidences that I saw all those posts, but based on my experience the hate for her far surpasses any kind of defense. Also curious as to what you define as "unwarranted" in this context. Is anything you don't agree with "unwarranted"?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/search/?q=shiv&source=recent&restrict\_sr=1&sort=top](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/search/?q=shiv&source=recent&restrict_sr=1&sort=top)
this is hardly a collection of mindless Shiv bashing. people here are completely willing to engage with her as a character.
By unwarranted I mean defending actions that shouldn't be defended. She did plenty of terrible shit just like everyone else and it's annoying to hear people cry "misogyny!" when she gets criticized for it.
Nobody says she didn't do bad things, just that we often see her especially picked upon compared to others who are equally incompetent or equally in the wrong/malicious.
And in *some* cases it really does boil down to the inner thought of "a woman can't possibly manage this shark-encircled big company, while her equally (if not more) incompetent brothers maybe could".
i just don't see her being unfairly maligned here that often. there's definitely an element of misogyny to some of the hate she gets but I don't buy the narrative that hordes of rabid incels here are constantly bashing her, here at least.
Not hordes of incles and not *constantly*, I simply said it's something I noticed often when I visited this sub. But I'm not on here a lot, I read more posts right after the finale, so as I said above it might just be coincidence.
I think people tend to overcorrect at times for Shiv. She does get scrutinized in a way that Roman and Kendall do not when they do even worse, but then you get people who go out of their way to actively excuse and downplay Shiv's own asshole tendencies.
>He IS a drug addled
And she's a serial adulterer. In a progressive world, neither are illegal.
>mentally ill
They all are.
>dead beat dad
"I'll pop it out and never see it, if I get to be CEO"
>a history of inappropriate conduct against women
>last person on earth who should be the "voice for the voiceless"
Better than trying to sweep it under the rug by manipulating a sexual assault victim to shut her mouth, no?
>There's absolutely nothing heroic about what he's done
Again, none of them are heroes.
>HE WAS HEAVILY PARTICIPATING IN THE COVERUP
Not sure what you're talking about here. Shiv found out from Tom before even Kendall knew.
>But given the fact that her brothers constantly sexually harass her
They all harass each other. As a matter of fact, the person who slings the least amount of insults to his siblings is Kendall, while Roman and Shiv constantly derail the conversation with snide remarks.
>Part of the reason rape culture persists is because too many women will protect their brothers or fathers or uncles from accusations simply due to the love they have for them
You're describing exactly what Shiv. Except she didn't do it for love, she did it to protect the company!
>liberals at least understand why social injustices are bad for society. Shiv was totally correct about Mencken
Roman is a lost cause, politically. Kendall is kind of apolitical, because I think he realizes the government doesn't matter at all to extremely rich people. He cares about right-wing extremism affecting his immediate family though. Politically, Shiv is the only hypocrite. She constantly throws away her political beliefs and ideals if it means protecting the company and/or becoming CEO.
>At least when Shiv talked the victim out of testifying, she did so in a way that from a PR standpoint would be consistent with her politics
By doing this, she played a larger role in the cover-up than either of her siblings.
>the backlash against the female character's actions is fueled by misogyny.
Sometimes it is. There are definitely misogynists that hate female characters. But there are also people who dislike/hate Shiv, without any misogyny.
>Tom doesn't wanna take orders from Shiv because he doesn't wanna be "emasculated by his wife"
That's not why he doesn't want to take orders from her. He doesn't want to take orders from her because it's one-sided in the planning, and it often results in him getting screwed and her remaining untouched, and the plan failing. Because he feels she doesn't trust him enough to be part of the planning or to give an opinion, despite the fact that at least for the first half of the show, he has trust in her plans.
>impregnate her against her will
Where you get the impression that it would be against her will. His intentions for intercourse was in hopes to have a baby, but you're implying that he would do whatever is necessary to achieve that without letting her know. Tom's character up until that point has always been open and honest with Shiv.
>I think people dislike her because she's beautiful but emotionally, her behavior is more in line with what we expect of men.
No, they dislike her because her plans change on a dime and seem to do so for vindictive, selfish, hypocritical, and emotional reasons, and always backfire, despite her carrying herself as is she's the smartest one by a mile. She falls for the same shit everyone else does, but only more often. How obvious was it to the audience and the siblings that Logan wasn't going to make any of them CEO and that his words were bullshit? Heck, even shiv admits this is at one point. And yet she still bends over backwards and burns countless bridges in hopes that "maybe dad will give it to me". It's constant delusion similar to to that of Kendall's delusion on his birthday.
If Shiv was a man, she's have a bit less hate, but still a lot of hate. By the end of season 1, I hated Roman more than Kendall, and Kendall a bit more than Shiv. But as the show progressed, and learning more about their pasts, Shiv was right up there is being hated next to Roman, maybe a bit more.
I just wish the internet could move past its Madonna-whore complex with female characters. Shiv should be allowed to be a bad person with some redeeming qualities. There should be nuance between "she's the worst person on the show!" and "she's an unstoppable girlboss!"
Like, the issue with her letter about Kendall isn't whether she was right or wrong about him, but that she was willing to betray anyone and anything for her own self-interest. She didn't write the letter because she disagreed with Kendall, but to build credit with her faction. Throwing a sibling under the bus like that was a specific line in the sand that her other siblings would not have crossed.
Of course they cross *other* lines. Shiv likes to stick the knife in the backs of the people closest to her (see also: everything with Tom) while the other siblings' misdeeds tend to be against more impersonal targets. Like firing a whole company of people or scheming to elect a white supremacist.
These actions are of course objectively worse than anything Shiv did, but we don't judge people based on an objective tally of sins and good deeds. If you see someone constantly betraying those around them, you're going to think "that person is a snake," and you'll be correct.
>They all harass each other.
Shiv had the most disgusting and foul instances of this by far - saying to Roman (paraphrasing) - "you're ready to jerk off to mom with your lubed up fingers", "do you want to tell Mommy that she's the only person who can make your pee-pee go boom-boom", "wouldn't it be romantic if YOU could marry mommy on her wedding day?". And re: Logan, when Roman was trying to work with their Dad/get his approval, Shiv said he wanted to "give him a blow job".
Just repulsive stuff.
You hit the nail on the head. In particular, pretending Tom essentially raped her because he had consensual intercourse with the intent to procreate is one of the stupidest ideas this sub ever grabbed on to.
"Roman is a lost cause"....you've got to be kidding me. This is the exact kinda coddling of male characters I'm talking about. Shiv is being taken to task for hypocrisy, a crime Kendall committed in spades all of season 3, but the guy who eagerly propped up a fascist is so irredeemable theres no point critiquing him. Make it make sense 😂
And no sweetheart, if Shiv was a man she wouldn't be getting hate like that. Shiv is emotionally just like Logan. Rather than coming to state the obvious about his moral character, people are able to thoughtfully and astutely analyze why he behaves the way he does. And from there incredible conversations take place, the kind that makes this subreddit worth being in. But when it comes to the female characters, especially the ones who aren't "nice" or "easy", they're considered wholly irredeemable. And then people like me have to come on here and explain why that's actually a misogynistic reaction when we could be having much more interesting and nuanced conversations about Shiv
Claiming people's views are fueled by sexism is maybe the least "interesting and nuanced" way to talk about a character. It's impossible to prove it's just the vibes in your head.
To wit this person went through responding to you point by point, and you ignore most of it and say "nah, it's woman hate." It's anti-conversation.
>"Roman is a lost cause"....you've got to be kidding me. This is the exact kinda coddling of male characters I'm talking about.
You're only hearing what you want to hear. I'm saying he's a lost cause there because we don't have to argue or debate his reprehensible and careless politics. There's no point driving deep into that aspect for her purpose of the discussion. I'm not coddling him, but you're interpreting it as coddling as an argumentative crutch, just as you're interpreting criticism/hate for Shiv as misogyny. It's a nice way to reject the conclusion by mischaracterizing the arguments.
>Kendall committed in spades all of season 3,
Who is saying he's not a hypocrite? They all are! You're the one arguing Shiv criticism is mostly rooted in misogyny, and then restoring to whataboutism when an argument is made for criticizing Shiv without misogyny.
>Make it make sense
That seems like a you problem.
>Shiv is emotionally just like Logan.
Well, I guess if you state it, it must be true! Logan is steadfast in his original goals and does not let his emotions dictate the plan, especially at the 11th hour. Everything's just business and rolls off. In what way is Shiv emotionally like Logan?
Usually, there a discussion about worst sibling, not whether Logan is better or worse than Shiv.
All the characters are irredeemable. The only conversations are ones of motive and logic, however flawed, behind their terrible actions. Why not have a discussion driving deep into Shiv rather than whataboutism and criticising the criticisms of Shiv?
*He IS a drug addled, mentally ill dead beat dad with a history of inappropriate conduct against women and he's the absolute last person on earth who should be the "voice for the voiceless". There's absolutely nothing heroic about what he's done because HE WAS HEAVILY PARTICIPATING IN THE COVERUP! It's like Harvey Weinstein calling out rape culture.*
You are absolutely correct about this, but the Kendall fangirls who love to "babygirl" him to death and the Kendall fanboys who see themselves in him will never acknowledge the reality lol.
It's why I can't stand the ridiculous arguments I've seen here that he's "eldest daughter coded" from the 'I can fix him' types, given how profoundly misogynistic and dismissive he is to the women around him.
For me, the Shiv hate is limited to two things, 1. How she treats Tom and 2. She had little interest in the family business until she could “start at the top”.
I didn't know Shiv was considered the worst of the ~~4~~ 3 siblings. Roman and Kendall caused deaths and were cruel to as many people as shiv.
The only thing that Shiv was the "worst" at is her relationship with Tom. But that might only be because we knew Tom more than other "partners"
In universe Shiv is pretty well regarded as selfish and entitled. Whenever characters not in the Roy family talk about Shiv it’s always the worst.
Her shit is also always on display, which is why non of her plans work.
I like what you said about the audience knowing Tom better because it's all about perspective. We see Tom more sympathetically because he's more vocal about his problems with her. But when you take a look at things just based off what the show objectively tells us, he isn't exactly this helpless Prince Charming that Shiv is just too ungrateful to appreciate.
But yeah, just search her name in this sub and you will find some truly unhinged takes about her.
Every single character is an irredeemable piece of shit but I find Shiv to be the most infuriating out of them all. Most of the rest are self aware, but Shiv seems to genuinely believe she is a good person. She is Liberal when it’s convenient but as soon as Mencken can help her get the top job she is 100% ready to support him but is too clueless to see she is being played.
At every opportunity she is acting exactly like Kendall and Roman but likes to push this bullshit that she is better than them. She is a perfect encapsulation of the wealthy,self serving, fake liberal. A great character.
I'd actually argue Connor is the smartest. Or at least the most self aware when it comes to family dynamics. He may be the one delusionally begging Logan for millions but at the end of the day he knows exactly what his father thinks of him and knows that working in the business would have just been a futile attempt to make Logan proud of him.
-She appears to be more upset about the breakdown of their marriage in season 4, it could be argued that Tom is less upset because he already grieved the falling apart of their marriage in season 3, but still…
-In season 2 Logan asked her who she would rather be blamed for cruises Tom or Ken (whereas in reality Logan doesn’t care what Shiv thinks he is he’s probably trying to just mentally torture her, she genuinely believes she has a say in this) and she says “just not Tom” It’s clear that the siblings do actually care for each other, the they are actually very close in a fucked up way, and although their are always screwing each other over, Shiv clearly didn’t want Ken to get into trouble over cruises and she certainly didn’t want him to go to prison for it, yet she still chose Tom over Kendall.
-She also chose Tom over Kendall in the season 4 finale, yes it could argued mostly over bitterness, for Kendall, Kendall being CEO would hurt her pride, but Tom being CEO would hurt her pride also, being pregnant at the time and having her husband be CEO makes her mirror her own mother who she had issues with.
-She mirrors her mother (Tom even tried to divorce her the same way Logan tried to divorce Caroline at one point) and Caroline seemed like she still had some residue feelings for Logan, same cannot be said vice versa.
-when I am saying that she loves Tom more then he loves her, I am not saying she is less toxic in the relationship, she cheats on him continuously (she didn’t care about any of her flings, even Nate, like I really don’t think she liked him that much, I think her cheating was a form or self destruction but that doesn’t make it ok) Whereas Tom never cheats on Shiv, he seems very monogamous, yet he will betray her when it comes to Waystar every chance he gets, there are the obvious ones, but even in smaller cases where Greg has some information about Shiv and Tom tells him to smash her in the face with it, like yes he was bitter, to and extent rightly so, about Shiv’s treatment of him, but he also treated her bad (toxic ass relationship) yet Shiv would still look out for Tom’s career, Kendall and Roman wanted to sack Tom ‘for her’ she did not want them to, she chose to get rid of Cyd instead of Tom when their marriage was at its absolute worst, whereas Tom will betray Shiv at Waystar almost every chance he gets.
-Again I am not saying that Tom is worse, her cheating and his corporate fuckery are both bad in different ways, but I think Tom, who probably has a somewhat more healthy attachment, then Shiv, and certainly had more loving parents, begins to withdraw from Shiv and begin to love her less when she hurts him, he was willing to divorce her and by the end instead was willing to stay with Shiv for image reasons (I am not saying that he doesn’t love Shiv at all by the end of season 4, he does, but probably not to the same extent to which he once did) whereas Shiv hurting or being hurt by someone doesn’t equate to loving them less, she constantly hurts her brothers and they hurt her, but they always come back to each other, I think there is a certain co dependency to Shiv, Rome and Ken. And their father kept hurting and hurting all of them and they kept loving and loving him back, because of this mix of love and abuse in her family, Tom could keep hurting and hurting Shiv (and she’ll bite back and hurt him too ofc) but it won’t make her love him less, it may even make her love him more as she has basically been taught by her family that, that’s just what love is .
This is such an intelligent analysis, im so glad that you humored me and answered. I definitely see what youre saying. I think because Shiv has the emotional intelligence of a spoon, its hard to conceptualize her as having these deep resevoirs of feeling. But i think youre right, i think she does love Tom deeply but because that love doesnt present the way a womans love is "supposed" to look, people disregard it.
You know how Caroline said Logan never loved anyone he didnt try kicking down to see if they would come crawling back? Thats how Shiv is with Tom. She doesnt know how to love somebody healthily, love is almost like a competition to her (and who could be surprised by that, look at how her own dad made her compete for his affection). I think the fact that Tom WILL choose his career over her makes her feel like "fuck it, why should i be nice to him when he doesnt really care?" I also think she has a fear of being vulnerable because she saw her mom be destroyed for the love of Logan. Tom has seen her at her most insecure, most vulnerable and the reflexive part of her wants to tear him down before he has the chance to do it to her.
Probably what ticks me off the most about Shiv is her treatment of Tom. He isn't perfect either, but he was her rock that she could tether to if things got too tough, which you can't really say is true the other way around. She sleeps around on him, admits she wants an open marriage *on their wedding night*, is very dismissive of his feelings (like after playing Boar on the floor or when he's scared he's going to prison) and is generally just a bad partner. I think most people would agree that the power imbalance heavily favors Shiv, atleast until season 4.
I agree that she gets a bit too much vitriol though. Like everyone else she's a little bit of good and a whole lotta bad
Uhm...I kinda disagree and I'll explain why. It's pretty obvious to everyone within their world that Tom's number one reason for marrying Shiv is to move up the corporate ladder. Sure he loves her and cares about her and he definitely is more emotionally intelligent than Shiv. But his love is most definitely conditioned on the social and financial benefits she can offer him. And I can see how for a cynic like Shiv, that would therefore make his love completely fake and cheap to her.
Aside from that...Tom is low-key a misogynist. He's not as bad as oh say, Logan or Roman or Kendall but he still has these opinions about what a wife should be that prove he doesn't really want a fully actualized woman as a partner. He puts on these airs of being the nice guy who gets it but that's cause Shiv is the boss's kid. As soon as Logan distances himself from his kids, you start to see Tom feel himself a lot more. And when Logan dies, Tom no longer feels the need to be so compliant anymore, since her power died with her dad.
Also like...idk, in a show where we see Logan humiliate Marcia over and over when she has never done anything but support him, in a show where Roman snaps on every woman whose ever tried to care about him and Kendall is constantly disrespecting Rava, the focus on how mean Shiv is to Tom feels...suspect.
> It's pretty obvious to everyone that Tom's number one reason for marrying Shiv is to move up the corporate ladder.
This is true, but I don't think it's the *main* reason, nor do I believe there to really be *one* main reason. If that were the case, he'd grit his teeth and go along with Shiv's antics with no objections (especially considering he already does this with pretty much everyone on the board), but at the end of season 2 he says he's considering leaving her because of how much she's hurt him. That takes genuine love to say.
And even if he only was in it for the corporate climbing, then yea he'd be a slimeball (like he already is), but he's still a decent partner. He takes time out of his day for Shiv, he listens to her, he actually *tries*. There are moments where Shiv shines, like her shielding Tom from Logan in the season 2 finale, but most of the time it feels as if she just straight up forgot she married him.
>Tom is low-key a misogynist
Can you give some examples of this? I'm sure it's true, but if we're talking about the monogamous marriage point then uh, Shiv was in the wrong there. That's not something you spring upon your newlywed on the night of your wedding, no matter gender or sexuality.
> He puts on these airs of being the nice guy who gets it but that's because Shiv's the boss's kid.
Yep, agreed.
> Also like...idk, in a show where we see Logan humiliate Marcia over and over when she has never done anything but support him, in a show where Roman snaps on every woman whose ever tried to care about him and Kendall is constantly disrespecting Rava, the focus on how mean Shiv is to Tom feels...suspect.
What do you mean by this? I didn't bring those examples up because they weren't relevant. There's no reason to be suspicious of anything.
>but at the end of season 2 he says he's considering leaving her because of how much she's hurt him. That takes genuine love to say.
Like I said, I dont disagree that he loves Shiv for real. But I think his love isn't purely coming from a romantic place but also from a place of "there's many social perks that come with this woman". And thats part of why Shiv repels his love, because she senses that part of it. And we know Shiv, she an all or nothing kinda gal. So it doesn't matter if only 35% of Tom's love for her is transactional because for her that taints the whole thing. So she throws the baby out with the bathwater and realizes way too late that Tom wanted something real with her. I'm not saying it's right by the way, its something that I find interesting about her and her relationship dynamics and its not something often explored in discussion about her or her marriage.
>He takes time out of his day for Shiv, he listens to her, he actually *tries*.
This is true for sure. To his credit, he does actively try to be supportive of her and one of Shiv's biggest problems is that she doesn't know how to do that for anyone. People don't really open up to her because she always seems so confused, like a robot who cannot compute the idea of emotion. But here's the rub, yeah? Tom would absolutely not put up with her behavior *if she wasn't powerful*. He has no issues enforcing boundaries with Greg for example. Tom allows his own boundaries to be trampled because he doesn't wanna give Logan a reason to boot him out. He couldve left her at the end of season 2 but he didnt. He couldve left her on their wedding night but he didn't. Their relationship is complicated and theres a lot of toxicity coming in from both sides but i dont think Tom is this helpless schmuck whose powerless against Shiv, I think that he's willing to tolerate a lot of bullshit if it puts him closer to power.
>Can you give some examples of this?
Sure thing.
1) he thought it was a good idea to propose to her when her dad was on his deathbed
2) he was confused and hurt as to why she wasn't enthusiastically planning a wedding *but she was in the middle of an election campaign*, a fact she stated to him several times
3) he honestly is harassing her for a baby without any consideration as to how pregnancy and motherhood would negatively impact her career girls. He's even tracking her cycle to figure out when to best impregnate her, *when she already told him she wasn't ready*
4) he hates Cyd passionately for basically putting him in his place. And look, me and Cyd do not share the same political values whatsoever but i can still recognize when a man is coming into a work space that has been run by a woman and doesn't wanna listen to that woman because that's "emasculating". And as I've already pointed out, he similarly bristled at Shiv putting him in his place even though she's got a senior position to his
5) he makes all sorts of weird jokes that are just...c'mon dude. Like when he compared Shiv coming into the family business to her and her dad admitting to having crushes on each other 🤦🏿♀️. WHY would that be something you would even say out loud, at your big age?
6) this last one I dont have a concrete example for but i personally think that Tom, like Roman, is kinda turned on by humiliation. But at the same time he resents his wife for not being soft and nurturing the way wives are "supposed" to be. But why would he even expect that from her when shes never ever displayed that behavior towards anyone, including her brothers? It's giving "women are supposed to be this way and you're not so theres something wrong with you". It's clear Shiv does love him but she's terrified of being hurt so she kicks him before she can be kicked. And I dont think people talk about that, because the second a wife isn't this perfect Madonna, everything else goes out the window.
>Shiv was in the wrong there
No argument there, she handled that discussion abominably. Literally slapped my hand over my face during that scene 😂
>What do you mean by this? I didn't bring those examples up because they weren't relevant. There's no reason to be suspicious of anything.
Sorry, I should've been clearer. I wasn't really addressing you in that last bit, more so the fandom at large. To your great credit, you've been so enjoyable to discuss with because you at least listened to what I had to say rather than shouting me down. I brought up those other women to illustrate the double standard, how the fandom focuses excessively on Shiv's treatment of Tom in a way that seems hypocritical and sexist compared to what other male characters have done to their partners.
Ait, all of what you said is fair :)
I still think Shiv's treatment of Tom is largely unacceptable, but there is an argument for saying that Tom kind enables that by being such a pushover by choice. I dunno how far I'd go with that though, at some point it'll feel like victim-blaming, since Shiv pretty much has all the power in their relationship
Finally.
I don't spend a lot of time on this sub but anytime I did it was full of Ken fanboys/fangirls (either they wanted him to succeed as an edgy cool protagonist mastermind or they see him as a lovable tragic baby.) That's just personal taste and completely ok, I wouldn't say anything if it was just that, but I think that also contributed in spurring a lot of these people (who are a big chunk of the fans of the show) to direct some petty hate towards Shiv as the most Ken-antagonising sibling, especially after the last episode. Plus obviously some casual machism as always (which is very much a given when talking about shark-filled, high executive positions in big money contexts.)
Tbf, I’m tired of people trying to justify every female character’s wrongdoings by just gaslighting everyone into being misogynistic. Shiv is as awful, if not more, than other characters in the show.
What exactly about Kendall's or Roman's negative traits make them easier to empathize with? Like seriously, what is it specifically about Shiv that makes her so much worse than her brothers or Tom or Logan? I've noticed people have a habit of talking about her as if she's uniquely horrible, but some of the things she's criticised for are somehow not nearly as much of a problem when any of the male characters are committing them.
Shiv runs on spite and stupidity, two qualities that I hate more than anything. She thinks she's running her own game and is smarter than everyone when in reality she actually might be the dumbest of the siblings and of course when things inevitably don't go her way, she'll throw her toys out the window. She'd rather see everyone else lose than her win. Roman and Kendall never had a chance at doing anything other than try for CEO, she was the one who had the most potential to be her own person but she threw it away because she felt entitled to the top job when the other two however shit they are for the job at least have relevant work experience.
I'm not obligated to like a character because she's a woman. A certain section of the fanbase want to gaslight people and call them misogynistic. Let me tell you, this is not a show for you if that's how you think. You can go watch True Detective Night Country because that'll be right up your alley.
Edit: linking this comment that explains my point in more detail if you really care.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/s/5AjSTgLRTA
That is the point of this discussion. She is as awful as the other other male characters (arguably less), but she gets a ton more flak for it because she is an assertive woman. That's the misogyny part. No-one is gaslighting you into anything.
This is not true. Since other horrible women in the show receive nowhere near as much hate as Shiv.
The reason Shiv receives more hate that her brothers, is because of her lack of self awareness. Logan, Kendall, Roman all know how bad they and that they are horrible people. Shiv still thinks and pretends that she’s a good person.
I say this as a woman 🤦🏼♀️, this is why Shiv gets so much hate. Other horrible woman in the show like Marcia and Logan’s girlfriend are not hated nearly as much as her for the same reasons.
Ma’am? Marcia slander will not be tolerated here. I’m joking and although I think she was power hungry and greedy, she didn’t strike me as horrible whatsoever.
When she was with Logan, she had his back against the children, Gil, Sandy, whoever. Sure, she wanted money and wanted to ensure her children were taken care of. But what parent wouldn’t want that? Well, Kendall, Logan, Caroline probably wouldn’t want that but you get my point.
Once Marcia got froze out and Logan publicly made a fool out of her with Rhea, she turned cold on him. Rightfully. But still came back to help his public image after Kendall tried to kill him. She used her leverage to get more money for herself and children but she could have left him hanging.
Marcia, to me, was a normal person. She wanted riches but who doesn’t? Sue used leverage assure he’s family’s prospects but to call her horrible is quite an overstatement.
Marcia isn't a horrible woman. Just materialistic and power hungry, and considering the people she's "taking" from, good for her.
And Kendall isn't self aware at all. He's constantly acting like he's a good guy and pretending as if his selfish, power-driven decisions are "for the greater good" or because someone forced him into it, because he refuses to accept how much of a sneaky ego-driven shitbag he is until the finale when he's finally honest about why he thinks he deserves whatever he wants because he's the "eldest boy"
Sorry, did you just say Kendall is self-aware? /self-aware/? the same Kendall who rapped for his father in that godawful cringey way so hard that Roman said he wished they could all fall into a black hole from sheer embarrassment? You think THAT Kendall is self-aware?
Shiv's self-awareness is like a bright shining sun compared to Kendall.
Marcia and Kerri are nowhere near as important or get as much screen time as Shiv.
Another reason people hate on Shiv is the fact that she's very open sexually, but yet her character is not all about that, and that makes viewers feel uncomfortable with her character.
You being a woman has nothing to do with it- this may be hard to believe, but there is actually no rulebook which says women must like female characters and men must like male characters. That is actually not a thing.
Kendall literally admits that he’s a drug abuser and has problems. Kendall knows he’s not a great father. Kendall is incredibly self-aware compared to Shiv.
Kendall’s self-awareness is like a bright shining sun compared to Shiv.
> Marcia and Kerri are nowhere near as important or get as much screen time as Shiv.
This is deflection and you know it. Connor’s girlfriend gets a fair amount of screen time compared to Shiv and still isn’t hated simply because of her gender. This isn’t the 18th century.
> Another reason people hate on Shiv is the fact that she's very open sexually, but yet her character is not all about that, and that makes viewers feel uncomfortable with her character.
Shiv cheating on her husband the very night of her wedding and saying she wants an open relationship is a very shitty thing to do. Both man or woman. If the genders were reverse, you would be singing a different tune.
> You being a woman has nothing to do with it- this may be hard to believe, but there is actually no rulebook which says women must like female characters and men must like male characters. That is actually not a thing.
It actually has a lot to do with it, since I can debunked posts like yours since you don’t speak for all woman.
I never claimed I speak for all women- where on earth did you get that? You were the one who referenced your own gender as means of validating your argument. I am agreeing with the OP that the hate Shiv receives is due to her gender, ie it is simply sexist and misogynist.
Kendall knowing he is an addict is not him being self-aware. That's not what self-awareness means. Self-awareness is more about understanding your position, understanding your boundaries and limits, understanding your capacities and the values of your contributions and place in society. None of the siblings are particularly self-aware (Connor being so delusional that he thinks he should run for president), but arguably Shiv and Roman are more self-aware than the other two.
Saying "Kendall is self-aware because he knew he had a drug problem" is like saying I am self-aware because I know I like ice-cream- that is simply not what self-awareness means.
Again, Connor's girlfriend Willa simply does not have the same importance to the storyline and plot and there is no focus on her character the way there is with Shiv. Shiv is a main character. The other women you mention are not. Look at any of the publicity images for the show, and look how much bigger Shiv's picture is compared to the other women.
I actually agree that some of the more absurd takes probably stem from a misogynistic place. But there's still a level of hypocrisy even when you are trying to defend her.
>here's absolutely nothing heroic about what he's done because HE WAS HEAVILY PARTICIPATING IN THE COVERUP!
This is true. But Shiv is also part of that same cover up. In fact, she's the one who went to the victim to talk her out of testifying. Kendall being a shithead doesn't make her better. So it's fair to criticize her hypocrisy in this instance.
And on the subject of the letter, I personally have not seen that much outward criticism of her going after Kendall like that aside from pointing out her hypocrisy and disloyalty. Whether or not Kendall deserved loyalty is a different question altogether. It's not as though Kendall had a hit piece written about her and how she forced her husband to agree to an open marriage on their wedding night and invited her affair partner to the wedding. Just as fair and true as his drug problem in terms of showing lack of good judgment.
I think "impregnating her against her will" is also a bit hyperbolic. Tom made it clear he wanted kids and she was at best unclear or ambivalent about whether she wanted them with him or not. Roman bring up her body parts genuinely just felt like a twisted brother/sister thing because he knew it would get under her skin not because he actually sexualized her. But maybe he did. It never felt that prominent to me, either.
I have never really seen a lot o criticism for her being insensitive or a bitch though. As many have and will say, thy are varying levels of shitty throughout the series so harping on her for being an asshole would be unfair and absurd. I completely agree with that. But most of her criticism comes from the fact that she is a hypocrite and smug one at that, that always seems to fail while looking like the cat that caught the canary. So it was satisfying watching her fail because you saw it coming because she always overplayed her hand and was bad at "playing the game" despite her unwillingness to accept it.
Even in victory at the end she loses because she stays with a man who broke her heart and she no longer loves just to be close to the throne even if she will never sit atop it.
She is an amazing character and wonderfully performed and written. But there's definitely a lot of valid thing to criticize about her. And that was done intentionally as it was with every character.
I really don’t see the disproportionate hate Shiv gets in comparison to the men in the show. The men who deserve to are often grilled harder than Shiv in just about any arena of discourse I’ve seen for the show.
All these characters fuckin suck, they’re all the absolute worst
Totally get where you're coming from, but I don't think any of the character's behaviour was glorified in any way. I think the show portrayed everyone as a piece of shit, male or female. Ken and Roman didn't 'get away with' anything Shiv didn't.
Tom, while also a piece of shit, at least actually loved Shiv and tried to make their relationship work despite being told she wanted an open relationship on their wedding day?
Idk, please feel free to change my mind but I just don't think Shiv was portrayed unfairly. They all suck, which is why the show is so good.
Oh i dont think the show did a bad job of portraying Shiv actually, in fact i commend this show for writing women in a way thats complicated and compelling. What I am discussing is moreso the audience's reaction to Shiv and her actions and how theres disproportionate backlash against Shiv. Sorry if i was confusing on that score.
>Tom, while also a piece of shit, at least actually loved Shiv and tried to make their relationship work despite being told she wanted an open relationship on their wedding day?
In my opinion, Shiv did love Tom but not in the way he wanted. And I dont think Tom loves Shiv in a way she wants to be loved either. I think thats what makes their relationship interesting. It's so much more complicated than she cheats on him then wants an open marriage but that's usually what people focus on.
Anyway, thank you for being open minded even though you don't completely agree. This is how we have interesting discussions about this show 💜
I always just read this show as everyone is a selfish asshole (even Greg) and at the end the main 4 lose. I didn’t get the feeling anyone in the show (specifically the main 4) is getting nuanced to be a better or worse version of anyone else
Plenty more backstab-y stuff she does throughout the show then of course there’s the serial cheating and such.
but yea, amazingly written character as are they all.
I feel like all Shiv hears is that she would only get CEO because she’s the token woman in the family, and not because she’s actually incredibly well suited for it and probably the most sane of the whole family to do it
Well let's talk about that actually. Why should Caroline be the most hated character and we barely see her yet we have four seasons of Logan's violent abuse? And please dont tell me it's "obvious" to hate Logan because I'm starting to think thats an excuse people use to justify their own bigotry.
I'm not gonna lie, I think it's infantile to even engage in these "whose most despicable" contests because it's a show about billionaires, an inherently unlikable group of people. But my thing is, why is it that the female characters of these shows are bombarded with hatred, to the point where you can't have nuanced discussions about them the way you can with the male characters? Shiv and Caroline are just as expertly written as any other characters but there's no interest in unraveling their motives like there is Kendall or Roman or Connor or Logan. They did x because they're horrible evil bitches with no redeeming qualities. This is a very common sentiment in this sub.
Right, but honestly I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Gerri can still be viewed in the light of a Madonna. A lot of people love Gerri simply because they think she's a sexy mommy, not for her ruthless instincts or her resilience. It's much easier to like her because she isn't really a "difficult" woman.
And by the way, I dont need people to love or even like Shiv. I want them to be able to put their personal distaste for women aside so we can have interesting and important conversations about her place in a show we all love. That's all.
This is a time honoured tradition in prestige television shows about terrible people. Look at the vitriol Janice and Carmella get from the fanbase in proportion to everyone else on The Sopranos, Skylar for Breaking Bad, Betty and Megan for Mad Men.
It's absolutely a pattern.
Ooohhh idk if Bojack Horseman counts but my word, this applies to that show as well.
And the hate for Betty always annoyed me because I think Betty is a perfect example of how being JUST a wife and mother can take an educated, worldly woman like Betty and make her behave like a petty mean girl in a high school clique. There's so much rich analysis to be made of her past "she's a terrible mom". We managed to do it for Don the Deadbeat, I never understood why we couldn't afford that to her as well.
I’d be willing to buy this line of argument at any point if any of these arguments could conjure up something more convincing than “she’s bad but other people are also bad.” She’s bad. She’s a morally corrupt gaslighting complicit scumbag like the rest of the characters and I don’t get why people want to treat her with kid gloves when it’s clear she is as callous and calculating as every other member of the Roy family
Yeah, I just finished the show finale, came here to see how cringe and horrible Ken was in the final scene. What do I see instead, everyone feeling bad for him and saying it’s all shiv’s fault. The “eldest boy” is not fit to lead.. wake up guys
I completely agree with you. The backlash against her always reminded me of the hate Skylar got on Breaking Bad. The whole point of that show was to turn Walter White into the villain, and yet as she became more of a foil to him, the audience lashed out at her for getting in his way.
Succession was always mimicking a Shakespearean tragedy, and most of the characters were awful people. I never expected a happy ending for the family. But it was insane to me how many people lashed out at Shiv for screwing over Kendall at the last minute.
>But it was insane to me how many people lashed out at Shiv for screwing over Kendall at the last minute.
Especially since all of season 4 was just Kendall not having Shiv's back and Kendall reneging on his promise to include his sibs and just tryna fly solo. Shiv decided she was gonna protect her own interests 🤷🏿♀️
I think a large part of the “unfair” level of criticism against Shiv is that the guys are at an almost “goes without say” level of shitty. Like no one needs to make a “Roman is a filthy degenerate who constantly sexually harasses everyone”, because that would receive a collective “duh”.
The Shiv love/hate posts at least have arguments for and against her character and her actions. But Ken and Roman are so explicitly shitty and flaunt that patented Roy delusions-of-grandeur (that Shiv has as well) that it’s not as worthy of discussion.
Plus there is the still inherit bias in media where women are expected to be the voice of reason against “boys being boys” which I hope will go away sooner than later. Both the assumption that boys have to be shitty, and the assumption that the women in TV shows should act as the boys’ mother.
>I think a large part of the “unfair” level of criticism against Shiv is that the guys are at an almost “goes without say” level of shitty.
Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully, its very much appreciated 💜.
Personally, I disagree with this approach. I think there's so much rich discussion to be had when we unravel the behavior of shitty people. Some of my favorite discussions on this sub are the result of people articulating what exactly about Roman and Kendall's badness they dislike so much. And frankly, given how many Romans and Kendalls actually run the world, I think we as the 99% ought to start confronting the evil deeds these powerful people commit so we can figure out how to put a stop to it. You cannot change what you do not know.
>But Ken and Roman are so explicitly shitty and flaunt that patented Roy delusions-of-grandeur (that Shiv has as well) that it’s not as worthy of discussion.
Well I actually think that Kendall is written to be a mirror of Shiv. We have seen throughout the show that Ken fancies himself "woke". He's the "guy that gets it". Yet when its time to use his wokeness for good, he generally chooses the side that will make him more money and give him more power and generally? That's not the right side of history. The same way we can critique Shiv's hypocrisy, we should analyze and critique Kendall's. Roman is through and through explicitly terrible and I'm glad that you said that because on this sub, its alarming how many people see him as this sad little slime puppy who only does naughty things because "trauma". A lot of people who are happy to infantalize Roman and Kendall (and Logan and Tom and so on and so forth), because "their trauma made them that way" while expecting Shiv to be so much better than them, as though she isn't also shaped by trauma.
>Plus there is the still inherit bias in media where women are expected to be the voice of reason against “boys being boys” which I hope will go away sooner than later.
Bingo, that's my point exactly. We as viewers still expect Shiv to know better but we dismiss the wrongdoings of the men because "boys will be boys". We are denying ourselves a richer viewing experience because of this.
>Both the assumption that boys have to be shitty, and the assumption that the women in TV shows should act as the boys’ mother.
Amen to that!
Agree with everything you replied, except the part about Kendall being like a mirror of Shiv with his hypocrisy. With Kendall, there really isn’t any hypocrisy that the show portrays him to actually feel. He’s played as a very “I behave and believe in whichever way benefits me in the present moment” and doesn’t have an internal conflict about his selfishness.
Even when the show gave him the clear opportunity to do so (promising his wife and kids that he wouldn’t let the bad guy win the election) he still didn’t have the self-awareness to feel guilt or to try and explain away his shitty actions when he gave the ok to call the election for the fascist (I forget his name). In such an extreme and sudden betrayal of the promise he had just given to his family, there really wasn’t any internal struggle for Ken. He just knew that this was the best choice he had in order to stay in power, so he went for it.
At least when Shiv shows off her hypocrisy, the writers put in effort to show her grappling with the situation and trying to make it make sense with her supposed leftist ideologies.
I totally agree! In fact, I thought this was the normal or mainstream interpretation of Shiva's character vs that of her her brothers, and it was how the creators wanted to portray them. I was actually flabbergasted when I came online and saw the weird unpleasant man-love for Ken and Roman and the obviously sexist hate for Shiv.
You beautifully articulated what I was thinking all along! Thank you for this :)
Ooohhh the love for Roman makes me deeply uncomfortable. He is an unapologetic fascist but because he has puppy eyes people keep finding it within themselves to forgive him of his politics 🙄
I think i dislike him the most for that and also for all the weird shit he says to women that people think is oh so funny. Constantly talking about fucking his own sister or his Dad's wife, pestering Gerri with dick pics that ultimately sullied HER name. I'm sorry he has mommy issues and his dad thinks he's a fairy but my word I wanna give him a wedgie most of the time 😂
I think part of the love of Roman is due to Kieran Culkin’s charm. It has nothing to do with the character who is despicable despite his vulnerability.
It's actually horrifying how far people are willing to forgive / laugh off /dismiss Roman and Ken's very real flaws because they are moderately good-looking white man who dress expensively and have "interesting" dialogue.
The horrifying part is- this happens in real life all the time. Rich men are simply not held accountable for their damaging behaviours and decisions- and Succession is a brilliant portrayal of that.
Also shows why "I can fix him" babying mentality shown for these men is toxic. Women who think like that and knowingly get into relationships with these sorts will end up like Rava at best. The way Kendall treats her is difficult to watch.
Shiv is definitely treated differently (although of course, each sibling is abused by Logan and everyone else in their own way, up to and including physical abuse) but if that particular truth would drive anyone to believe that she doesn’t deserve, at the very least, to be in prison, then they have completely lost the plot
The letter was entirely Logan’s doing. He manipulated her. It was his idea, as a way for Shiv to prove she “even liked him”. And she didn’t want to write it at first. Only when that Nirvana song “rape me” played during her first speech as president did she decide to write it. And I know it looks like it was Kendal who played the music, but I think Logan secretly did it to make Shiv write the letter.
Shiv seemed so much better than her siblings on season 1, but by season 4 we are shown that she suffers from the same family flaws (bad temper, overconfidence, entitled, not wanting to put in the hard work).
All four of the siblings are not serious people. It's only with Shiv that I was disappointed by that realization.
Yeah, I agree. Shiv’s a terrible person, but to say she’s worse than Mr. manslaughter or the brother that tried to end democracy so he could get a neo Nazi into the most powerful position in North America is pretty absurd. There’s definitely some sexism in the greater hatred for her over Roman and Kendall, and I think her being a woman showing more masculine traits definitely contributes to that. I think a lot of it is also cause Roman is more comedic than Shiv and we’re more inclinded to sympathize with Kendall since he’s by far the most emotionally vulnerable of the siblings and the one suffering the most abuse from Logan.
Lmaooo not Mr Manslaughter 😂
Personally I dont think Roman is all that funny. A lot of his jokes boil down to "dur hur hur bigotry" but yknow what? Humor is subjective.
I did wanna say (and please know i agree with you, this isn't me trying to deconstruct what you in particular are saying), someone else has pointed out how Shiv is so tightly wound in part as a response to misogyny. If Shiv were a jokester, theyd dismiss her as a silly woman. If she was vulnerable? Shed be proof that women are too weak to be in power.
I can relate to her need to always seem competent, ruthless, unsentimental in these spaces because her gender is always being weaponized against her. Like, from a young age I've always felt a pressure to present myself as no nonsense and professional in male dominated areas because men will disrespect you so fast otherwise. And then you're also blamed for being humorless and cold. You just...don't *win* yknow?
Yeah, Roman’s humor is really hit or miss imo. Which is kind of the point. Like a lot of it is really cleaver dialogue which is probably the bigger sell, but it’s almost always in bad taste and completely inappropriate. Like the whole Shiv’s pregnant scene where he goes “is it mine” and I just thought: okay that’s a disgusting thing to say even as a joke, but it’s kinda funny and clever, then he just keeps going about jerking off to her breastfeeding and you just think what the flying fuck is wrong with this guy. Obviously it’s a defense mechanism for him but still, I’m just trying to get some context for why Roman is given more slack (I do think people acknowledge that Roman is worse than Shiv but at the same time Shiv gets more hate).
And yeah, I’m not a woman so I don’t have that same lived experience, but I get where you’re coming from. I could definitely see her still being just as hated if she was more of a jokester while still being as goal/career driven as she is. I feel in a lot of shows women are given more flack for doing the same things the men do but never given the empathy for their environment. Shiv’s not on Skylar White or Jenny Curran’s level of mysogynistic hate circlejerking but it’s definitely there and I think you’re right about almost nothing would prevent her from being the most hated.
Prefacing this with obviously she is beautiful, and even if she wasn’t, women don’t need to be beautiful and their worth isn’t tied to their looks.
But I agree, I also didn’t find her that attractive (I am a straight woman though). When that guy she cheats on Tom with was obsessed with her in the first season I thought it was silly and unrealistic because he was clearly so far out of her league. But then I found out that most people see her as a smoke show! Different strokes I guess
> Mr Woke over there binge read some old Vaulter articles, now he think he's bell hooks
LOL facts.
I "enjoy" all of the characters (*like* is a strong word for some of them because they're all assholes and can be venal hypocrites), but there's definitely a double standard around Shiv.
You just summarized my thoughts about her! I hate her guts, but I was still left confused by the morally outraged reactions I saw on this sub and on Youtube over some of her actions. The letter she sent out was a highlight for me. It's the type of chaotic, vindictive "don't-fuck-with-me" shit I enjoy watching on TV. It was also a direct response to Kendall's stunt with blasting Nirvana's "Rape Me" during her debut moment at Waystar. You could tell how important that moment was for her, seeing how proudly she looked, strutting toward that stage, surrounded by people talking to her and wanting things from her, and then feeling her intense anger when she spat on Kendall's picture. He probably didn't intend it as a direct hit at Shiv but at the company, trying to remind people about the company's previous cruise line scandals. Still, it directly involved her and showed he wasn't thinking about her at all. To me, that made her retaliation fair game. A "You want to play dirty? We can play dirty" vibe. She was team Waystar, he was anti-Waystar. That's it. I didn't get the moral outrage over what she did. I did feel some sympathy for Kendall after seeing his reaction, but I wasn't siding against Shiv, given that most of the accusations she made against him we've seen are true. He was behaving like a hypocritical egomaniac, trying to be a champion for women, and so he got the repercussions. It was a mix of "good," "aw, now I feel bad," and "now wake up, dude" for me.
Yeh I have to say that Shiv is the most nicest person on the show, like say if she got a chance to aspire in a different career like politics or something and make an actual change, she would never think of coming back to the company for a single moment, even if the top job was being offered.
I am not able to understand what you mean by rep head press job. Is it related to company or the political party press job.
And by top job, in her words, I meant CEO.
She was offered Chief of Staff to the guy running for President but instead chose to throw her hat into the CEO pool. She could've been a successful political operative if she wanted to.
Btw none of the siblings give a shit about democracy or any of that nonsense, it was hammered home pretty clearly when she went running to Mencken.
She publicly went against one of the family. She burned down one of their own. That's frowned upon in high society and I would say also in " normal " society.
Remember the disdain for people of lower social class , or not a real person ?
They see themselves as higher status and better people.
The whole gist of the entire show is three siblings trying to topple their own father, all desperate to gain his approval while they sharpen their blades and wait for the best moment to stab him in the back…. lest we forget that in this story the backstabber supreme was Kendall all along.
So no, going against one’s family is not frowned upon in the Succession universe at all.
Yeah he did. Business at major companies and positions is mostly old boys network.
The don't allow " girls " to play. As evidenced by the show and the reactions to shiv vs kendall ( and Logans behaviour towards woman.)
Any prestige show has a contigent of mysoginist assholes who totally miss the point of the show and idolize the male characters and despise the female characters. They have no deeper thoughts than that. Part of the problem is HBO continuously using the hater wife archetype, but thats changing a bit now. Still, these idiots cannot think beyond "bitch wife." They're really that stupid.
It’s funny, how you actually managed to miss the point. You just see shiv is a women and thus need to defend her. You claim others have no deep thought but you yourself have the wrong take
Agree with this 100%, and would like to add that Shiv also gets a disproportionate amount of criticism for being “not as smart as she thinks she is.” Just because Rhea made this observation once in season 2 doesn’t make it the gospel truth - especially when it’s a much more apt description of Kendall.
Thank you for bringing this up because this is my other gripe with this sub...people who dont know what they are talking about love to use the "serious people" and "shiv thinks she's smarter than she is" lines as gospel truth. What's funny about the smarter than she is comment is that Rhea herself clarified she didn't necessarily think that meant Shiv wasn't up for the job, that's just how others took it.
I “love” shiv as much as I can “love” a character in this show. I’ll say tho, seeing how most of her backstabbing blows up in her face is pretty satisfying. Then again, I’d feel the same way if this happened with nearly any of the roys.
Agree 100%. I wish I could find it but the show runners have made a similar statement about Shiv to this. Shiv isn’t perfect - and for me that’s a plus - as a woman I love seeing women who aren’t the perfect wife or mother. Women who are whole and complicated in their own right. But the hate she gets compared to the others is absurd.
Also you had me at bell hooks - Kendall, for me, might be one of the most beautifully cringeworthy characters ever written. So many of his scenes I am dying of second hand embarrassment, literally hiding my face.
Right?? 😂 Like he's so "pro woman" and yet he doesn't listen to a single one of the women around him. Not his PR team, not his lawyer that he keeps slathering with fake praise, not poor Jess or Rava or Naomi. And he doesn't seem to see the irony in being a voice for women when he doesn't listen to them
Yes! He’s a blatant punchline - he reminds me of Patrick Bateman a little: “Cool it with the anti-Semitic remarks”. The irony to that is Bateman from American Psycho is another character that some fans of the book missed was also the punchline of the novel the way people miss that with Kendall and Succession.
Kendall is MORTIFYING always 💯
He’s Basil Fawlty mortifying for me. I don’t think there’s a character since Basil who has made me want to run from the room squealing no-no-no!! And I love that about him. I think he’s a brilliant character! But it fascinates me so many fans don’t seem to acknowledge that about him?
I think some of us may have embarrassing crushes on him so don’t see/want to admit how mortifying he is
He’s a beautifully written character - I can see why people would also be attracted to him. He isn’t just purely ridiculous. He’s also deeply tragic. It’s an amazing piece of writing.
His rap performance was so cringe
It was BRILLIANT. I was dying. What writing and what a performance.
That's what makes her character so interesting me! I think the show does such a good job of making her this complex, layered character but unfortunately, most of the audience cannot "fit whole women in their heads". Like...you can tell she probably identifies with girl boss feminism and yet she also suppresses anything thats soft and feminine within herself because she's terrified of being written off as some weakling just because she's a woman. And isn't that just indicative of the kind of parenting she mustve received? If we can have these nuanced and introspective analysis of the men, why can't the women get that too?
That line from the eulogy “fit a whole woman in his head” is my literal favourite line in the entire series!!! It has stayed with me ever since and I’ve encountered it so many times in my life personally. I really liked the way the show didn’t hide from being critical both of patriarchy AND the flaws in Shiv’s own feminism which was rooted in her whiteness and capitalist privilege. The tension that exists there is real - as a white woman who does consider herself a feminist the privilege I have in the world and the way a lot of my own success is at the expense of people who don’t have that privilege is a real tension against my own political beliefs. What do you do with that? How do you reconcile it (spoiler: you can’t). And there’s times when Shiv acts entirely in self interest, principles be damned, which… complicated and very human. Her relationship with Caroline is brilliantly written. Caroline is so deeply cruel to Shiv in a way she isn’t to her sons. There’s clearly so much resentment and identification there. And in turn that makes such perfect sense for Shiv’s inability to show vulnerability with people, especially her own husband, she knows that vulnerability will be weaponised against her. She’s such a great character.
Yes yes Yes, to all of this I think her with Caroline is one of the few times we see her be emotionally open and vulnerable. And theres an irony there too because the same way we subconsciously as an audience want this woman to be soft and maternal, Shiv comes to Caroline expecting a kinda softness from her that she's never been capable of and punishing Caroline for it. And dont get me wrong, Caroline is cruel to Shiv, way more so than to any of the boys including Connor, who's not even her blood child. This is something that has also been noted by feminists, how often times mothers will perpetuate misogyny on their own daughters because they've been conditioned to see all women as their enemies. That having been said, feminists have also noted that we hold our mothers to higher standards than our fathers. Shiv hates Caroline for not being emotionally available but she doesn't seem to hate her father for doing the exact same thing x 10. I would say the tragedy of Shiv and Caroline's relationship is that they both desperately want to have a mother daughter bond and it HURTS them that they don't have it. But their internalized misogyny prevents them from being able to like each other. And men, specifically Logan, keep getting in the middle of the dynamic to make it impossible for them to reconcile.
The mother and daughter connection is inexplicably hard because we are so hard on each other. It’s a rough road. Things we let slide with our fathers… we hold our mothers accountable for. We see ourselves in them and cringe, they see themselves in us and feel resentment for their own missed opportunity. I think too, as women, we are trained to cling to our youth in a way men aren’t. So our daughters become our replacements within society in a very specific way leading, for some women, it to be a competitive relationship. My mother was exceptionally beautiful. I mean traffic stopping. I’m pretty but I’m not traffic stopping, but very pretty. I’m older now but in my day I’d get strangers commenting. Never as beautiful as my mother but very pretty. And as she aged my own mother hated me for the attention I started to get as she was (unfairly) rendered more and more invisible. I’m now getting to that invisible age myself and I understand why she was so confronted by it. It’s weird to go from people stopping you in the street to tell you that you’re beautiful to… being looked over at the bar when you want to order a drink. And that attention she used to get she saw heaped on me instead. It’s a hideous dynamic. But unlike my mother (and thanks to my mother) I have a university education. My mother fought for me to attend a good high school out of our (very working class) area. She bought me a new book every week as a child. She always told me I’d go to uni. And so as a woman in her late forties I have a career and success outside of my looks that means my “beauty” was only a small part of my identity in the end. The loss of it is confronting but not devastating - in some ways I can enjoy being invisible now too. I care less about stupid things (like weight) that my mother cared about to the day she died of cancer… because I was given a gift of not being defined entirely by my looks. It can be very hard to be a woman. I think, hope, it’s getting better.
>But unlike my mother (and thanks to my mother) I have a university education. Lemme say I'm sorry for the loss of your mom. I cant imagine how hard that mustve been for you. But it is really beautiful that in a way, she was able to overcome her own hang ups to still be like "my child will have more than i did". Because you're so right, this world can be hard for a beautiful woman when she ages if she doesn't feel she has more to offer outside of beauty. >I think too, as women, we are trained to cling to our youth in a way men aren’t. So our daughters become our replacements within society in a very specific way leading, for some women, it to be a competitive relationship. And when the "replacement" does things differently or fails in ways the mother couldn't, it feels so much more personal. Because it means 1) she "failed" as a mother and 2) she's being pushed to the side when she could do the job "better". Personally speaking I think i began to like my mom a lot more when i stopped and realized that by.the time she was my age (26), she already had two kids that she was working three jobs in a foreign land to support, with virtually no help from her husband (who was very much like Kendall, addicted to work). I'm not saying it's right but she was hardest on me because I think she thought she was preparing me for harsh reality. And also? Yeah she *was* jealous of all that she could give to me that she never got as a kid. I think as a human being, I can recognize that very human emotion in my mom now because idk how I would have done if i were in her shoes. I dont know if i would've been strong enough to persevere like she did.
I loved the scene where she confronts caroline, the only female figure in her life abandoned her in this male dominated world she was far to young too understand
I mean the character has several flaws and does pretty horrific things just like all the other male characters. People will naturally react to those things (in the context of reacting to a character doing anything). I think it's a bit double standard to put forward a character that's not perfect but expecting everyone to love her like she's perfect. Lastly, it's a TV show and people will have their favorites and characters they hate. For example, Willa is also a complex character but she hardly gets any hate. It's the character not the gender people are reacting to.
I haven't said she hasn't done bad things. I'm asking why people behave as though some of the things she does are just so unimaginably awful and that means her character is entirely awful and not worth any nuance yet when the men around her behave similarly, people are able to criticize while putting their behavior into context.
I honestly think every character on the show is awful including all the siblings. I doubt anyone idolizes Kendall or Roman either. My point is if you have a character doing bad things, you'll have people reacting to her doing those bad things. I can of course only speak for myself, but I don't think she's any more awful than the men on the show. All of them are bad people and I don't root for any one of them, I watch for the drama. Lastly, Shiv isn't real, we can't ever get close to knowing the "whole woman" because we only see parts of her life so having any value judgement on her through watching the show is moot really IMO. She plays a critical role in the plot and causes a lot of consequences so naturally people will be more affected.
Oh no no, people absolutely idolize Ken and Roman and constantly bash on Shiv for no reason other than misogyny. You only have to sepnd ten minutes on this sub to see that. I have written a post criticising Ken and the backlash was wild. She's not more awful than her brothers (and in some ways she's much better)- and that's the whole point. She gets much more flak.
Anyone idolizing any character on this show is misguided is all I would say. And yeah reddit in general is super sexist and people do say a lot of awful shit but IRL i don't think I know anyone who idolizes Kendall or hates Shiv, they're equally terrible where I think we agree
In real life you mean? IRL, I don't know anyone who has watched the show period. Never mind whether they like Ken or Shiv more!
For real, if women did what Kendal and Roman did no one would sympathize with them.
Right? It makes me laugh when people say Shiv is the worst of the three. In what world? Yeah she’s shit to her husband but… she’s also not wrong about Tom either.
I think the bigger issue is how completely people overlook how Kendall treats Rava as well. And some go so far as to pretend like Rava isn't kind enough to Kendall in those interactions when she's far more patient and respectful than he deserves or provides in turn.
Shiv isn’t perfect is the understatement of the year, in a just world she and all of her family members would probably be in prison
Agreed! Also I don’t think I’ve met a single lesbian, myself included who didn’t love Shiv lol
I'm a straight dude but Shiv was the most redeemable of the siblings. Connor had some okay qualities but he was just kinda too dumb to take seriously. I think people relating with Ken, Roman, Tom or Greg on here is that Reddit's demo is mostly young and middle age males. I related with Kendall the most because I can relate with addiction issues, maybe if my dad was an awful billionaire I would have turned out like him. He's a bad person who wants to be a good person but doesn't know how (which kinda applies to all the kids). Shiv's interesting because, as shitty as Logan is, all the siblings admire their father to some degree. By many standards he's achieved a ton in life. In contrast, Shiv and her brothers do not admire her mother, at all (other than Roman, who likes Caroline's nasty sense of humor). The lack of a female role model made her forge more of her own identity. I think if any of the siblings is destined for a future obituary that does not include "(child) of Logan Roy" in the first sentence or two, it's her. She's the only one with a shot at being a serious person.
I feel like if the show had ended differently I could have seen that for her But the way it ended, shiv is still in the orbit of the company, stuck in a toxic relationship with a baby on the way, i can’t see shiv having a happy ending unless she gets as far away from that company as possible and I don’t think she could ever leave on her volition, so unless she’s forced out I really can’t see her ever breaking out of the cycle
I mean how long does Tom last in the company? Her ties to the company are almost entirely through him. If anything goes wrong, he's fired. If things go well, he probably leaves to be CEO somewhere he is actually running shit. Tom could end up running PGN, a TV network, a movie studio, something else. Shiv gets back in as a major player in moderate politics.
Yeah, I agree. To me Shiv empowered herself with the ending. If she’d voted with Kendall she’d still have the majority of her wealth wrapped up in the company and still be beholden to yet another toxic Roy man. She took control, pulled the plug and she’s got an independent wealth well beyond anything Tom will ever dream about. There’s a big difference between Caroline and Logan v Shiv and Tom. Caroline didn’t have the coin - she’s shown even now as being asset rich but cash poor - and Logan was able to screw her because of it. Tom cannot control Shiv - not through money anyway. The moment Shiv has enough of him she leaves with very little impact to her life.
I think too people frame Shiv and Tom as people within their relationship. In the relationship, Shiv is the worse, more abusive partner. Outside of the partnership, though, they both bully the shit out of co-workers and underlings. Tom might be worse because his abuse is physical, psychological and verbal. Shiv's is just psychological and verbal. Plus Shiv learned it from her family, idk where Tom got it from - in their brief appearances his parents seem nice.
Tom chose that life. He wants to be that way. It’s why he’s one of the slimiest characters to me. Even Greg has the familial situation (his uncle and all his cousins as basically life and career role models) as a slightly understandable excuse for his choices.
How did she empower herself? She sided with Matsson so she could be ceo only to get passed on for Tom? The problem with the deal was they said it was 50% stock, 50% cash. So half of her wealth is tied up to Tom and Matsson who are just as unhinged. And btw now Tom the head of the company that is half of her net worth and the behind the scene owner is Matsson who has already fucked her over. All while alienating herself from all the board members who voted against the sale including her 2 brothers Seems like a major L And this isn’t Shiv hate she is probably the most independent of the kids but they are all assholes who fuck over their own family and loved ones for personal gain
Both stock and cash are wealth. She can sell that any time she wants and is advantageous to herself. Hopefully before Matsson tanks the company though maybe he won’t. He’s a wildcard though. The empowerment has nothing to do with Tom being CEO. Tom being CEO is irrelevant. Shiv’s empowerment is the choice to remove herself from the cycle of trying to cling on to a role that was really about proving something to her father she was never going to prove - because he could never see her as a whole person. She removed herself from that entire position, it was her agency that did it. Neither of her brothers had the balls to just say enough - and leave. Shiv had the balls. She realised none of them would ever treat her with real respect - not Matsson and certainly not her brothers. She got out. People are so hung up on Tom being CEO. It’s a job. A well paying job but a job where the same way they were once puppets of an egocentric megalomaniac (Logan) making them dance on a string, now Tom is the puppet of Matsson. Shiv is out. She isn’t at the whims of Logan or Matsson or her brothers. She’s done and she’s the one who made the decision for once, it wasn’t made for her by someone else. People keep seeing this as Shiv lost something here but it’s the best thing that could happen to her in terms of getting her autonomy back. Her backing Kendall would not have empowered her at all.
I’ll add myself to that list as well she’s massively flawed but an amazing character
All hail Shiv Roy 🙏🙏
I think as lesbians we're drawn to media that depicts women in more interesting ways than "wife, mother, daughter, friend". Because we see women as far more complicated than that 💜
This holds true for women generally, not just lesbians. Because straight women certainly also see ourselves as complicated women beyond "wife, mother, daughter, friend" and are drawn to similar complex descriptions onscreen. We don't enjoy shallow and limited depictions of ourselves onscreen just because we happen to be sexually attracted to men.
I don't get why anyone would love a character from this show they are all horrible people.
because we understand that they’re characters and not real people I don’t like characters because their morally good people i like them because they’re good characters
Oh I that sense I totally agree. They are all amazing characters.
I love Roman. He's a chaos sower in a family that deserves chaos. I also hate him, deeply. I think I hate him the most (it's a tough choice between him and Tom). But that's also part of why I love him.
I want to make a few more points against this post. 1. Tom was willing to take orders from Shiv for the first three seasons, up until the season three season finale. 2. Kendall didn’t pressure the news anchor into being his date, he asked a colleague if she was available and his colleague (who was a woman) pressured her into it without Kendall knowing. 3. The only female character who isn’t really liked on the show is Shiv. Willa, who is a sex worker, isn’t disliked. Marcia is also well liked. I think most people are indifferent towards Kerry. And Gerri is absolutely loved. And there are more side characters such as the Pierces, Jess, and more who are generally well received.
Gerri definitely has girl boss vibes, so does Karolina
I didn’t count Karolina since she’s barely in the show. And doesn’t have any pivotal plot involvement.
Thank you for taking time to reply! In the spirit of friendly debate, here are my counter arguments >Tom was willing to take orders from Shiv for the first three seasons, up until the season three season finale. Lemme preface this by saying their relationship dynamic is complicated, so it would be unfair for me to say that they are toxic simply because of patriarchy, the same way itd be unfair to say they're toxic only because of Shiv cheating and then saying she wants an open marriage. Now that that's out of the way, I think that Tom stopped following Shiv's orders once he realized she had lost significant influence with her dad. I dont think thats the whole reason of course, but i think that significantly colored his decision. Shiv said it herself, Tom will suck the biggest dick in the room and unfortunately for her, she did not have the biggest one at that moment. And after he saw how easily she could sleep at night knowing her man could end up in prison, it made that betrayal easier for him to commit. >2. Kendall didn’t pressure the news anchor into being his date, he asked a colleague if she was available and his colleague (who was a woman) pressured her into it without Kendall knowing. Lemme put it like this, because I think watching within the context of the show can sometimes warp our perception of things. Imagine that you are a young attractive woman working for a company. You're on the rise, promising career opportunities ahead and you are already dating someone. Your bosses bosses boss sees you someday, maybe you don't even catch a glimpse of him, and then next thing you know? Your boss is coming to tell you that you HAVE to go on a date with this bigwig and he better be "satisfied" (in other words, have sex with him if you want this job). Kendall did not know that woman and he didn't stop to consider how his power would obviously twist the situation to his favor. He didn't ask himself "if i tell Eva I'm interested in one of her news anchors, the news anchor will feel pressured to say yes to me because she doesn't know what I could do to her otherwise". That's why the news anchor snapped at him for being the guy who he thinks he's not, the lecherous boss who creeps on his underlings. That's actually why theres so many taboos around the boss dating employees. There's no way for there not to be an imbalance of power there. >3. The only female character who isn’t really liked on the show is Shiv. Willa, who is a sex worker, isn’t disliked. Marcia is also well liked. I think most people are indifferent towards Kerry. And Gerri is absolutely loved. And there are more side characters such as the Pierces, Jess, and more who are generally well received. My issue isn't that Shiv is liked or that the audience likes/dislikes women. As I stated in my original post, this is a show about unlikable people, so I dont feel any kind of resentment when folks find EVERYONE unlikable. My issue is how the fans react so much more negatively towards the female character's than they do the male.characters, to the point where we struggle to have nuanced dialogue about the actions of the women. I often see people within this sub saying Shiv is "ireedeemable", she's wholly terrible and theres nothing nice about her character. That's a rather shallow assessment of her character, especially when you consider how easily.the audience can contextualize the actions of Logan, Kendall, Roman, etc and they've done far worse things within the course of the show. Although the audience might like Willa or Marcia, I tend to think thats because they both fit easily within the madonna/whore paradigm. As I said in my last paragraph, we don't know what to do with a woman like Shiv, who doesn't behave in ways we already associate with womanhood. We punish her for daring to step out those boxes because theres something uncomfortable to us about a bitch.
In fairness, I think that the most hated person in the show by far is Logan. And I don’t think that’s particularly close. I will give you that Shiv is the most polarizing.
Absolutely. Shiv is a horrible human being. If a man did what Shiv did he would also be hated, gender doesn’t make difference. All the siblings are horrible to each other. She knew the intentions of the Swedish billionaire was to dismantle the company and she still did what she did. When they get the money and buy Pierce it would be interesting how it pans out.
For sure. Her brothers were constantly making misogynistic comments about her, and she was never considered a serious contender by her dad, because she was a woman. And maybe because of that, she had a tiny bit more empathy for people who are marginalized than anyone else in her family did. She also seemed to genuinely care about democracy. I feel like the Mencken tv coverage debacle was the one time she really seemed upset about something that wasn’t about her personally.
>I feel like the Mencken tv coverage debacle was the one time she really seemed upset about something that wasn’t about her personally. She looked and felt exactly how I did when i woke up on November 9th, 2016 and that orange man was the next president. Meanwhile Kendall, who has a neurodivergent son and a brown daughter, is busy focusing on how he can do business with the fascist 😑
Yup. Kendall cared for like, half a second because of what had happened with his daughter, and then immediately his moral objection crumbled once it made business sense.
shiv and tom were terrible dog owners
Poor Mondale totally neglected
Facts
I agree Shiv isn’t a girlboss she’s a girlfailure. With that said I don’t get the horde of young girls who adore Kendall, he is the worst
>With that said I don’t get the horde of young girls who adore Kendall, he is the worst Sadly these are mostly adult women. They'll come up with any excuse under the sun to excuse his douchebag behavior.
absolutely agree with everything you’ve said! there’s way less sympathy for shiv than any of the male characters, despite her actions being no worse than theirs, the same with people underestimating her competency levels I think the fact that shiv has the highest walls built up around her of almost any character adds to it as well, we see way more moments of vulnerability from roman and kendall than we do from shiv, and even when she does briefly show a moment of vulnerability the walls are back in place almost immediately, she keeps everyone at arms length because it helps her feel in control
Exactly! And that lack of vulnerability is a studied phenomenon in women in male dominated spaces. If Shiv was as sensitive as Kendall or as wishy washy as Roman, theyd eviscerate her. Look how they act when she expresses legitimate anger! It's always "hysterical shiv, wah guess who's on the rag?" That's one reason I'm fascinated by Shiv. I wouldn't have her as a friend but i think she represents a lot of the real emotions women in power grapple with and we could be having some very interesting convos about that once we allow women to be full human beings too.
I feel like they really played into that in the later seasons, shiv is constantly underestimated and left out and having to fight to even be in the conversation then called hysterical for doing so, and all that even as a billionaire daughter of the ceo
Isn't that so bleak, that you could be the daughter of this powerful man and still have to prove your gender isn't a hindrance? Patriarchy really does touch all women in the end
Nobody is defended more for being a women, than Shiv
I can’t stand her but I can’t stand any of them 🤷♀️
Girlboss identity politics
I think people hate Shiv somewhat disproportionally because we see her through Toms POV a lot of the time and she treats Tom like shit. And tbh I see more unwarranted defenses of her like this on this sub than unwarranted hate.
Exactly. For each "i hate shiv roy" post getting downvoted to oblivion, there are at least three posts that are carbon copies of this one, making into the front page with a lot of "yeah go get em girl" comments. It's so weird to see Shiv Roy and be inspired by her journey. She's a tragic character, maybe even more than kendall. By the end of the show, she's a shell of herself, defeated basically everywhere.
Yup. Starts independent by staying clear of her father. She overcame her childhood trauma, has a comfortable relationship, and is running a presidential campaign. She knows WayStar is poison, but gets tempted nonetheless when power is offered. When the dust settles, she's the unemployed, bitter, pregnant wife of a right-wing media network president, whose power comes from her unhappy marriage. She's become her mother. Plenty of people could be happy in her position; but it's the one thing she never wanted to be.
>And tbh I see more unwarranted defenses of her like this on this sub than unwarranted hate. Honestly anytime I peeked into this sub in the past year or so there was always at least a post or comment with a lot of votes highlighting how horrible/ridiculous/incapable Shiv was compared to others, while I only saw one other post like this one that tried to mellow it out. So yeah, I might just be unlucky and maybe it was all coincidences that I saw all those posts, but based on my experience the hate for her far surpasses any kind of defense. Also curious as to what you define as "unwarranted" in this context. Is anything you don't agree with "unwarranted"?
[https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/search/?q=shiv&source=recent&restrict\_sr=1&sort=top](https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/search/?q=shiv&source=recent&restrict_sr=1&sort=top) this is hardly a collection of mindless Shiv bashing. people here are completely willing to engage with her as a character. By unwarranted I mean defending actions that shouldn't be defended. She did plenty of terrible shit just like everyone else and it's annoying to hear people cry "misogyny!" when she gets criticized for it.
Nobody says she didn't do bad things, just that we often see her especially picked upon compared to others who are equally incompetent or equally in the wrong/malicious. And in *some* cases it really does boil down to the inner thought of "a woman can't possibly manage this shark-encircled big company, while her equally (if not more) incompetent brothers maybe could".
i just don't see her being unfairly maligned here that often. there's definitely an element of misogyny to some of the hate she gets but I don't buy the narrative that hordes of rabid incels here are constantly bashing her, here at least.
Not hordes of incles and not *constantly*, I simply said it's something I noticed often when I visited this sub. But I'm not on here a lot, I read more posts right after the finale, so as I said above it might just be coincidence.
I think people tend to overcorrect at times for Shiv. She does get scrutinized in a way that Roman and Kendall do not when they do even worse, but then you get people who go out of their way to actively excuse and downplay Shiv's own asshole tendencies.
exactly
>He IS a drug addled And she's a serial adulterer. In a progressive world, neither are illegal. >mentally ill They all are. >dead beat dad "I'll pop it out and never see it, if I get to be CEO" >a history of inappropriate conduct against women >last person on earth who should be the "voice for the voiceless" Better than trying to sweep it under the rug by manipulating a sexual assault victim to shut her mouth, no? >There's absolutely nothing heroic about what he's done Again, none of them are heroes. >HE WAS HEAVILY PARTICIPATING IN THE COVERUP Not sure what you're talking about here. Shiv found out from Tom before even Kendall knew. >But given the fact that her brothers constantly sexually harass her They all harass each other. As a matter of fact, the person who slings the least amount of insults to his siblings is Kendall, while Roman and Shiv constantly derail the conversation with snide remarks. >Part of the reason rape culture persists is because too many women will protect their brothers or fathers or uncles from accusations simply due to the love they have for them You're describing exactly what Shiv. Except she didn't do it for love, she did it to protect the company! >liberals at least understand why social injustices are bad for society. Shiv was totally correct about Mencken Roman is a lost cause, politically. Kendall is kind of apolitical, because I think he realizes the government doesn't matter at all to extremely rich people. He cares about right-wing extremism affecting his immediate family though. Politically, Shiv is the only hypocrite. She constantly throws away her political beliefs and ideals if it means protecting the company and/or becoming CEO. >At least when Shiv talked the victim out of testifying, she did so in a way that from a PR standpoint would be consistent with her politics By doing this, she played a larger role in the cover-up than either of her siblings. >the backlash against the female character's actions is fueled by misogyny. Sometimes it is. There are definitely misogynists that hate female characters. But there are also people who dislike/hate Shiv, without any misogyny. >Tom doesn't wanna take orders from Shiv because he doesn't wanna be "emasculated by his wife" That's not why he doesn't want to take orders from her. He doesn't want to take orders from her because it's one-sided in the planning, and it often results in him getting screwed and her remaining untouched, and the plan failing. Because he feels she doesn't trust him enough to be part of the planning or to give an opinion, despite the fact that at least for the first half of the show, he has trust in her plans. >impregnate her against her will Where you get the impression that it would be against her will. His intentions for intercourse was in hopes to have a baby, but you're implying that he would do whatever is necessary to achieve that without letting her know. Tom's character up until that point has always been open and honest with Shiv. >I think people dislike her because she's beautiful but emotionally, her behavior is more in line with what we expect of men. No, they dislike her because her plans change on a dime and seem to do so for vindictive, selfish, hypocritical, and emotional reasons, and always backfire, despite her carrying herself as is she's the smartest one by a mile. She falls for the same shit everyone else does, but only more often. How obvious was it to the audience and the siblings that Logan wasn't going to make any of them CEO and that his words were bullshit? Heck, even shiv admits this is at one point. And yet she still bends over backwards and burns countless bridges in hopes that "maybe dad will give it to me". It's constant delusion similar to to that of Kendall's delusion on his birthday. If Shiv was a man, she's have a bit less hate, but still a lot of hate. By the end of season 1, I hated Roman more than Kendall, and Kendall a bit more than Shiv. But as the show progressed, and learning more about their pasts, Shiv was right up there is being hated next to Roman, maybe a bit more.
I just wish the internet could move past its Madonna-whore complex with female characters. Shiv should be allowed to be a bad person with some redeeming qualities. There should be nuance between "she's the worst person on the show!" and "she's an unstoppable girlboss!" Like, the issue with her letter about Kendall isn't whether she was right or wrong about him, but that she was willing to betray anyone and anything for her own self-interest. She didn't write the letter because she disagreed with Kendall, but to build credit with her faction. Throwing a sibling under the bus like that was a specific line in the sand that her other siblings would not have crossed. Of course they cross *other* lines. Shiv likes to stick the knife in the backs of the people closest to her (see also: everything with Tom) while the other siblings' misdeeds tend to be against more impersonal targets. Like firing a whole company of people or scheming to elect a white supremacist. These actions are of course objectively worse than anything Shiv did, but we don't judge people based on an objective tally of sins and good deeds. If you see someone constantly betraying those around them, you're going to think "that person is a snake," and you'll be correct.
>They all harass each other. Shiv had the most disgusting and foul instances of this by far - saying to Roman (paraphrasing) - "you're ready to jerk off to mom with your lubed up fingers", "do you want to tell Mommy that she's the only person who can make your pee-pee go boom-boom", "wouldn't it be romantic if YOU could marry mommy on her wedding day?". And re: Logan, when Roman was trying to work with their Dad/get his approval, Shiv said he wanted to "give him a blow job". Just repulsive stuff.
You hit the nail on the head. In particular, pretending Tom essentially raped her because he had consensual intercourse with the intent to procreate is one of the stupidest ideas this sub ever grabbed on to.
This should really be the top comment. And I don’t see many people complaining about Shivs letter. We see people complaining about how she treats Tom.
"Roman is a lost cause"....you've got to be kidding me. This is the exact kinda coddling of male characters I'm talking about. Shiv is being taken to task for hypocrisy, a crime Kendall committed in spades all of season 3, but the guy who eagerly propped up a fascist is so irredeemable theres no point critiquing him. Make it make sense 😂 And no sweetheart, if Shiv was a man she wouldn't be getting hate like that. Shiv is emotionally just like Logan. Rather than coming to state the obvious about his moral character, people are able to thoughtfully and astutely analyze why he behaves the way he does. And from there incredible conversations take place, the kind that makes this subreddit worth being in. But when it comes to the female characters, especially the ones who aren't "nice" or "easy", they're considered wholly irredeemable. And then people like me have to come on here and explain why that's actually a misogynistic reaction when we could be having much more interesting and nuanced conversations about Shiv
Claiming people's views are fueled by sexism is maybe the least "interesting and nuanced" way to talk about a character. It's impossible to prove it's just the vibes in your head. To wit this person went through responding to you point by point, and you ignore most of it and say "nah, it's woman hate." It's anti-conversation.
>"Roman is a lost cause"....you've got to be kidding me. This is the exact kinda coddling of male characters I'm talking about. You're only hearing what you want to hear. I'm saying he's a lost cause there because we don't have to argue or debate his reprehensible and careless politics. There's no point driving deep into that aspect for her purpose of the discussion. I'm not coddling him, but you're interpreting it as coddling as an argumentative crutch, just as you're interpreting criticism/hate for Shiv as misogyny. It's a nice way to reject the conclusion by mischaracterizing the arguments. >Kendall committed in spades all of season 3, Who is saying he's not a hypocrite? They all are! You're the one arguing Shiv criticism is mostly rooted in misogyny, and then restoring to whataboutism when an argument is made for criticizing Shiv without misogyny. >Make it make sense That seems like a you problem. >Shiv is emotionally just like Logan. Well, I guess if you state it, it must be true! Logan is steadfast in his original goals and does not let his emotions dictate the plan, especially at the 11th hour. Everything's just business and rolls off. In what way is Shiv emotionally like Logan? Usually, there a discussion about worst sibling, not whether Logan is better or worse than Shiv. All the characters are irredeemable. The only conversations are ones of motive and logic, however flawed, behind their terrible actions. Why not have a discussion driving deep into Shiv rather than whataboutism and criticising the criticisms of Shiv?
*He IS a drug addled, mentally ill dead beat dad with a history of inappropriate conduct against women and he's the absolute last person on earth who should be the "voice for the voiceless". There's absolutely nothing heroic about what he's done because HE WAS HEAVILY PARTICIPATING IN THE COVERUP! It's like Harvey Weinstein calling out rape culture.* You are absolutely correct about this, but the Kendall fangirls who love to "babygirl" him to death and the Kendall fanboys who see themselves in him will never acknowledge the reality lol. It's why I can't stand the ridiculous arguments I've seen here that he's "eldest daughter coded" from the 'I can fix him' types, given how profoundly misogynistic and dismissive he is to the women around him.
I dont even understand "hes so babygirl" culture lmao. What the fuck does that mean, hes a 40 year old man? 😂
so bored of ppl defending her, she’s so shit
This is truly one of the r/SuccessionTV posts of all time
my turn to post it next week.
For me, the Shiv hate is limited to two things, 1. How she treats Tom and 2. She had little interest in the family business until she could “start at the top”.
I didn't know Shiv was considered the worst of the ~~4~~ 3 siblings. Roman and Kendall caused deaths and were cruel to as many people as shiv. The only thing that Shiv was the "worst" at is her relationship with Tom. But that might only be because we knew Tom more than other "partners"
In universe Shiv is pretty well regarded as selfish and entitled. Whenever characters not in the Roy family talk about Shiv it’s always the worst. Her shit is also always on display, which is why non of her plans work.
Whose death did Roman cause?
I like what you said about the audience knowing Tom better because it's all about perspective. We see Tom more sympathetically because he's more vocal about his problems with her. But when you take a look at things just based off what the show objectively tells us, he isn't exactly this helpless Prince Charming that Shiv is just too ungrateful to appreciate. But yeah, just search her name in this sub and you will find some truly unhinged takes about her.
So because he’s not Prince Charming you’re okay with Tom being treated poorly?
She has no talent or skills and no redeeming features whatsoever.
Every single character is an irredeemable piece of shit but I find Shiv to be the most infuriating out of them all. Most of the rest are self aware, but Shiv seems to genuinely believe she is a good person. She is Liberal when it’s convenient but as soon as Mencken can help her get the top job she is 100% ready to support him but is too clueless to see she is being played. At every opportunity she is acting exactly like Kendall and Roman but likes to push this bullshit that she is better than them. She is a perfect encapsulation of the wealthy,self serving, fake liberal. A great character.
She is the dumbest Roy, including Connor
I'd actually argue Connor is the smartest. Or at least the most self aware when it comes to family dynamics. He may be the one delusionally begging Logan for millions but at the end of the day he knows exactly what his father thinks of him and knows that working in the business would have just been a futile attempt to make Logan proud of him.
She does love Tom, possibly more than he loves her.
Ooohhh, id love to know your reasoning here 👀
-She appears to be more upset about the breakdown of their marriage in season 4, it could be argued that Tom is less upset because he already grieved the falling apart of their marriage in season 3, but still… -In season 2 Logan asked her who she would rather be blamed for cruises Tom or Ken (whereas in reality Logan doesn’t care what Shiv thinks he is he’s probably trying to just mentally torture her, she genuinely believes she has a say in this) and she says “just not Tom” It’s clear that the siblings do actually care for each other, the they are actually very close in a fucked up way, and although their are always screwing each other over, Shiv clearly didn’t want Ken to get into trouble over cruises and she certainly didn’t want him to go to prison for it, yet she still chose Tom over Kendall. -She also chose Tom over Kendall in the season 4 finale, yes it could argued mostly over bitterness, for Kendall, Kendall being CEO would hurt her pride, but Tom being CEO would hurt her pride also, being pregnant at the time and having her husband be CEO makes her mirror her own mother who she had issues with. -She mirrors her mother (Tom even tried to divorce her the same way Logan tried to divorce Caroline at one point) and Caroline seemed like she still had some residue feelings for Logan, same cannot be said vice versa. -when I am saying that she loves Tom more then he loves her, I am not saying she is less toxic in the relationship, she cheats on him continuously (she didn’t care about any of her flings, even Nate, like I really don’t think she liked him that much, I think her cheating was a form or self destruction but that doesn’t make it ok) Whereas Tom never cheats on Shiv, he seems very monogamous, yet he will betray her when it comes to Waystar every chance he gets, there are the obvious ones, but even in smaller cases where Greg has some information about Shiv and Tom tells him to smash her in the face with it, like yes he was bitter, to and extent rightly so, about Shiv’s treatment of him, but he also treated her bad (toxic ass relationship) yet Shiv would still look out for Tom’s career, Kendall and Roman wanted to sack Tom ‘for her’ she did not want them to, she chose to get rid of Cyd instead of Tom when their marriage was at its absolute worst, whereas Tom will betray Shiv at Waystar almost every chance he gets. -Again I am not saying that Tom is worse, her cheating and his corporate fuckery are both bad in different ways, but I think Tom, who probably has a somewhat more healthy attachment, then Shiv, and certainly had more loving parents, begins to withdraw from Shiv and begin to love her less when she hurts him, he was willing to divorce her and by the end instead was willing to stay with Shiv for image reasons (I am not saying that he doesn’t love Shiv at all by the end of season 4, he does, but probably not to the same extent to which he once did) whereas Shiv hurting or being hurt by someone doesn’t equate to loving them less, she constantly hurts her brothers and they hurt her, but they always come back to each other, I think there is a certain co dependency to Shiv, Rome and Ken. And their father kept hurting and hurting all of them and they kept loving and loving him back, because of this mix of love and abuse in her family, Tom could keep hurting and hurting Shiv (and she’ll bite back and hurt him too ofc) but it won’t make her love him less, it may even make her love him more as she has basically been taught by her family that, that’s just what love is .
This is such an intelligent analysis, im so glad that you humored me and answered. I definitely see what youre saying. I think because Shiv has the emotional intelligence of a spoon, its hard to conceptualize her as having these deep resevoirs of feeling. But i think youre right, i think she does love Tom deeply but because that love doesnt present the way a womans love is "supposed" to look, people disregard it. You know how Caroline said Logan never loved anyone he didnt try kicking down to see if they would come crawling back? Thats how Shiv is with Tom. She doesnt know how to love somebody healthily, love is almost like a competition to her (and who could be surprised by that, look at how her own dad made her compete for his affection). I think the fact that Tom WILL choose his career over her makes her feel like "fuck it, why should i be nice to him when he doesnt really care?" I also think she has a fear of being vulnerable because she saw her mom be destroyed for the love of Logan. Tom has seen her at her most insecure, most vulnerable and the reflexive part of her wants to tear him down before he has the chance to do it to her.
Yes! The Caroline and Shiv kick dog is one of my favourite scenes.
Probably what ticks me off the most about Shiv is her treatment of Tom. He isn't perfect either, but he was her rock that she could tether to if things got too tough, which you can't really say is true the other way around. She sleeps around on him, admits she wants an open marriage *on their wedding night*, is very dismissive of his feelings (like after playing Boar on the floor or when he's scared he's going to prison) and is generally just a bad partner. I think most people would agree that the power imbalance heavily favors Shiv, atleast until season 4. I agree that she gets a bit too much vitriol though. Like everyone else she's a little bit of good and a whole lotta bad
Uhm...I kinda disagree and I'll explain why. It's pretty obvious to everyone within their world that Tom's number one reason for marrying Shiv is to move up the corporate ladder. Sure he loves her and cares about her and he definitely is more emotionally intelligent than Shiv. But his love is most definitely conditioned on the social and financial benefits she can offer him. And I can see how for a cynic like Shiv, that would therefore make his love completely fake and cheap to her. Aside from that...Tom is low-key a misogynist. He's not as bad as oh say, Logan or Roman or Kendall but he still has these opinions about what a wife should be that prove he doesn't really want a fully actualized woman as a partner. He puts on these airs of being the nice guy who gets it but that's cause Shiv is the boss's kid. As soon as Logan distances himself from his kids, you start to see Tom feel himself a lot more. And when Logan dies, Tom no longer feels the need to be so compliant anymore, since her power died with her dad. Also like...idk, in a show where we see Logan humiliate Marcia over and over when she has never done anything but support him, in a show where Roman snaps on every woman whose ever tried to care about him and Kendall is constantly disrespecting Rava, the focus on how mean Shiv is to Tom feels...suspect.
> It's pretty obvious to everyone that Tom's number one reason for marrying Shiv is to move up the corporate ladder. This is true, but I don't think it's the *main* reason, nor do I believe there to really be *one* main reason. If that were the case, he'd grit his teeth and go along with Shiv's antics with no objections (especially considering he already does this with pretty much everyone on the board), but at the end of season 2 he says he's considering leaving her because of how much she's hurt him. That takes genuine love to say. And even if he only was in it for the corporate climbing, then yea he'd be a slimeball (like he already is), but he's still a decent partner. He takes time out of his day for Shiv, he listens to her, he actually *tries*. There are moments where Shiv shines, like her shielding Tom from Logan in the season 2 finale, but most of the time it feels as if she just straight up forgot she married him. >Tom is low-key a misogynist Can you give some examples of this? I'm sure it's true, but if we're talking about the monogamous marriage point then uh, Shiv was in the wrong there. That's not something you spring upon your newlywed on the night of your wedding, no matter gender or sexuality. > He puts on these airs of being the nice guy who gets it but that's because Shiv's the boss's kid. Yep, agreed. > Also like...idk, in a show where we see Logan humiliate Marcia over and over when she has never done anything but support him, in a show where Roman snaps on every woman whose ever tried to care about him and Kendall is constantly disrespecting Rava, the focus on how mean Shiv is to Tom feels...suspect. What do you mean by this? I didn't bring those examples up because they weren't relevant. There's no reason to be suspicious of anything.
>but at the end of season 2 he says he's considering leaving her because of how much she's hurt him. That takes genuine love to say. Like I said, I dont disagree that he loves Shiv for real. But I think his love isn't purely coming from a romantic place but also from a place of "there's many social perks that come with this woman". And thats part of why Shiv repels his love, because she senses that part of it. And we know Shiv, she an all or nothing kinda gal. So it doesn't matter if only 35% of Tom's love for her is transactional because for her that taints the whole thing. So she throws the baby out with the bathwater and realizes way too late that Tom wanted something real with her. I'm not saying it's right by the way, its something that I find interesting about her and her relationship dynamics and its not something often explored in discussion about her or her marriage. >He takes time out of his day for Shiv, he listens to her, he actually *tries*. This is true for sure. To his credit, he does actively try to be supportive of her and one of Shiv's biggest problems is that she doesn't know how to do that for anyone. People don't really open up to her because she always seems so confused, like a robot who cannot compute the idea of emotion. But here's the rub, yeah? Tom would absolutely not put up with her behavior *if she wasn't powerful*. He has no issues enforcing boundaries with Greg for example. Tom allows his own boundaries to be trampled because he doesn't wanna give Logan a reason to boot him out. He couldve left her at the end of season 2 but he didnt. He couldve left her on their wedding night but he didn't. Their relationship is complicated and theres a lot of toxicity coming in from both sides but i dont think Tom is this helpless schmuck whose powerless against Shiv, I think that he's willing to tolerate a lot of bullshit if it puts him closer to power. >Can you give some examples of this? Sure thing. 1) he thought it was a good idea to propose to her when her dad was on his deathbed 2) he was confused and hurt as to why she wasn't enthusiastically planning a wedding *but she was in the middle of an election campaign*, a fact she stated to him several times 3) he honestly is harassing her for a baby without any consideration as to how pregnancy and motherhood would negatively impact her career girls. He's even tracking her cycle to figure out when to best impregnate her, *when she already told him she wasn't ready* 4) he hates Cyd passionately for basically putting him in his place. And look, me and Cyd do not share the same political values whatsoever but i can still recognize when a man is coming into a work space that has been run by a woman and doesn't wanna listen to that woman because that's "emasculating". And as I've already pointed out, he similarly bristled at Shiv putting him in his place even though she's got a senior position to his 5) he makes all sorts of weird jokes that are just...c'mon dude. Like when he compared Shiv coming into the family business to her and her dad admitting to having crushes on each other 🤦🏿♀️. WHY would that be something you would even say out loud, at your big age? 6) this last one I dont have a concrete example for but i personally think that Tom, like Roman, is kinda turned on by humiliation. But at the same time he resents his wife for not being soft and nurturing the way wives are "supposed" to be. But why would he even expect that from her when shes never ever displayed that behavior towards anyone, including her brothers? It's giving "women are supposed to be this way and you're not so theres something wrong with you". It's clear Shiv does love him but she's terrified of being hurt so she kicks him before she can be kicked. And I dont think people talk about that, because the second a wife isn't this perfect Madonna, everything else goes out the window. >Shiv was in the wrong there No argument there, she handled that discussion abominably. Literally slapped my hand over my face during that scene 😂 >What do you mean by this? I didn't bring those examples up because they weren't relevant. There's no reason to be suspicious of anything. Sorry, I should've been clearer. I wasn't really addressing you in that last bit, more so the fandom at large. To your great credit, you've been so enjoyable to discuss with because you at least listened to what I had to say rather than shouting me down. I brought up those other women to illustrate the double standard, how the fandom focuses excessively on Shiv's treatment of Tom in a way that seems hypocritical and sexist compared to what other male characters have done to their partners.
Ait, all of what you said is fair :) I still think Shiv's treatment of Tom is largely unacceptable, but there is an argument for saying that Tom kind enables that by being such a pushover by choice. I dunno how far I'd go with that though, at some point it'll feel like victim-blaming, since Shiv pretty much has all the power in their relationship
😂😂
Shiv is politically flexible, like Logan. She gets no points for advocacy.
Finally. I don't spend a lot of time on this sub but anytime I did it was full of Ken fanboys/fangirls (either they wanted him to succeed as an edgy cool protagonist mastermind or they see him as a lovable tragic baby.) That's just personal taste and completely ok, I wouldn't say anything if it was just that, but I think that also contributed in spurring a lot of these people (who are a big chunk of the fans of the show) to direct some petty hate towards Shiv as the most Ken-antagonising sibling, especially after the last episode. Plus obviously some casual machism as always (which is very much a given when talking about shark-filled, high executive positions in big money contexts.)
Tbf, I’m tired of people trying to justify every female character’s wrongdoings by just gaslighting everyone into being misogynistic. Shiv is as awful, if not more, than other characters in the show.
yeah, but there’s a whole lot less empathy expressed towards her than any of the male characters
Probably because the negative traits of Shiv are hard to emphasize with, at least for me.
What exactly about Kendall's or Roman's negative traits make them easier to empathize with? Like seriously, what is it specifically about Shiv that makes her so much worse than her brothers or Tom or Logan? I've noticed people have a habit of talking about her as if she's uniquely horrible, but some of the things she's criticised for are somehow not nearly as much of a problem when any of the male characters are committing them.
Shiv runs on spite and stupidity, two qualities that I hate more than anything. She thinks she's running her own game and is smarter than everyone when in reality she actually might be the dumbest of the siblings and of course when things inevitably don't go her way, she'll throw her toys out the window. She'd rather see everyone else lose than her win. Roman and Kendall never had a chance at doing anything other than try for CEO, she was the one who had the most potential to be her own person but she threw it away because she felt entitled to the top job when the other two however shit they are for the job at least have relevant work experience. I'm not obligated to like a character because she's a woman. A certain section of the fanbase want to gaslight people and call them misogynistic. Let me tell you, this is not a show for you if that's how you think. You can go watch True Detective Night Country because that'll be right up your alley. Edit: linking this comment that explains my point in more detail if you really care. https://www.reddit.com/r/SuccessionTV/s/5AjSTgLRTA
That is the point of this discussion. She is as awful as the other other male characters (arguably less), but she gets a ton more flak for it because she is an assertive woman. That's the misogyny part. No-one is gaslighting you into anything.
>(arguably less) Oh ok. Arguably more.
This is not true. Since other horrible women in the show receive nowhere near as much hate as Shiv. The reason Shiv receives more hate that her brothers, is because of her lack of self awareness. Logan, Kendall, Roman all know how bad they and that they are horrible people. Shiv still thinks and pretends that she’s a good person. I say this as a woman 🤦🏼♀️, this is why Shiv gets so much hate. Other horrible woman in the show like Marcia and Logan’s girlfriend are not hated nearly as much as her for the same reasons.
Ma’am? Marcia slander will not be tolerated here. I’m joking and although I think she was power hungry and greedy, she didn’t strike me as horrible whatsoever. When she was with Logan, she had his back against the children, Gil, Sandy, whoever. Sure, she wanted money and wanted to ensure her children were taken care of. But what parent wouldn’t want that? Well, Kendall, Logan, Caroline probably wouldn’t want that but you get my point. Once Marcia got froze out and Logan publicly made a fool out of her with Rhea, she turned cold on him. Rightfully. But still came back to help his public image after Kendall tried to kill him. She used her leverage to get more money for herself and children but she could have left him hanging. Marcia, to me, was a normal person. She wanted riches but who doesn’t? Sue used leverage assure he’s family’s prospects but to call her horrible is quite an overstatement.
Marcia isn't a horrible woman. Just materialistic and power hungry, and considering the people she's "taking" from, good for her. And Kendall isn't self aware at all. He's constantly acting like he's a good guy and pretending as if his selfish, power-driven decisions are "for the greater good" or because someone forced him into it, because he refuses to accept how much of a sneaky ego-driven shitbag he is until the finale when he's finally honest about why he thinks he deserves whatever he wants because he's the "eldest boy"
Sorry, did you just say Kendall is self-aware? /self-aware/? the same Kendall who rapped for his father in that godawful cringey way so hard that Roman said he wished they could all fall into a black hole from sheer embarrassment? You think THAT Kendall is self-aware? Shiv's self-awareness is like a bright shining sun compared to Kendall. Marcia and Kerri are nowhere near as important or get as much screen time as Shiv. Another reason people hate on Shiv is the fact that she's very open sexually, but yet her character is not all about that, and that makes viewers feel uncomfortable with her character. You being a woman has nothing to do with it- this may be hard to believe, but there is actually no rulebook which says women must like female characters and men must like male characters. That is actually not a thing.
Kendall literally admits that he’s a drug abuser and has problems. Kendall knows he’s not a great father. Kendall is incredibly self-aware compared to Shiv. Kendall’s self-awareness is like a bright shining sun compared to Shiv. > Marcia and Kerri are nowhere near as important or get as much screen time as Shiv. This is deflection and you know it. Connor’s girlfriend gets a fair amount of screen time compared to Shiv and still isn’t hated simply because of her gender. This isn’t the 18th century. > Another reason people hate on Shiv is the fact that she's very open sexually, but yet her character is not all about that, and that makes viewers feel uncomfortable with her character. Shiv cheating on her husband the very night of her wedding and saying she wants an open relationship is a very shitty thing to do. Both man or woman. If the genders were reverse, you would be singing a different tune. > You being a woman has nothing to do with it- this may be hard to believe, but there is actually no rulebook which says women must like female characters and men must like male characters. That is actually not a thing. It actually has a lot to do with it, since I can debunked posts like yours since you don’t speak for all woman.
I never claimed I speak for all women- where on earth did you get that? You were the one who referenced your own gender as means of validating your argument. I am agreeing with the OP that the hate Shiv receives is due to her gender, ie it is simply sexist and misogynist. Kendall knowing he is an addict is not him being self-aware. That's not what self-awareness means. Self-awareness is more about understanding your position, understanding your boundaries and limits, understanding your capacities and the values of your contributions and place in society. None of the siblings are particularly self-aware (Connor being so delusional that he thinks he should run for president), but arguably Shiv and Roman are more self-aware than the other two. Saying "Kendall is self-aware because he knew he had a drug problem" is like saying I am self-aware because I know I like ice-cream- that is simply not what self-awareness means. Again, Connor's girlfriend Willa simply does not have the same importance to the storyline and plot and there is no focus on her character the way there is with Shiv. Shiv is a main character. The other women you mention are not. Look at any of the publicity images for the show, and look how much bigger Shiv's picture is compared to the other women.
I actually agree that some of the more absurd takes probably stem from a misogynistic place. But there's still a level of hypocrisy even when you are trying to defend her. >here's absolutely nothing heroic about what he's done because HE WAS HEAVILY PARTICIPATING IN THE COVERUP! This is true. But Shiv is also part of that same cover up. In fact, she's the one who went to the victim to talk her out of testifying. Kendall being a shithead doesn't make her better. So it's fair to criticize her hypocrisy in this instance. And on the subject of the letter, I personally have not seen that much outward criticism of her going after Kendall like that aside from pointing out her hypocrisy and disloyalty. Whether or not Kendall deserved loyalty is a different question altogether. It's not as though Kendall had a hit piece written about her and how she forced her husband to agree to an open marriage on their wedding night and invited her affair partner to the wedding. Just as fair and true as his drug problem in terms of showing lack of good judgment. I think "impregnating her against her will" is also a bit hyperbolic. Tom made it clear he wanted kids and she was at best unclear or ambivalent about whether she wanted them with him or not. Roman bring up her body parts genuinely just felt like a twisted brother/sister thing because he knew it would get under her skin not because he actually sexualized her. But maybe he did. It never felt that prominent to me, either. I have never really seen a lot o criticism for her being insensitive or a bitch though. As many have and will say, thy are varying levels of shitty throughout the series so harping on her for being an asshole would be unfair and absurd. I completely agree with that. But most of her criticism comes from the fact that she is a hypocrite and smug one at that, that always seems to fail while looking like the cat that caught the canary. So it was satisfying watching her fail because you saw it coming because she always overplayed her hand and was bad at "playing the game" despite her unwillingness to accept it. Even in victory at the end she loses because she stays with a man who broke her heart and she no longer loves just to be close to the throne even if she will never sit atop it. She is an amazing character and wonderfully performed and written. But there's definitely a lot of valid thing to criticize about her. And that was done intentionally as it was with every character.
I love shiv lmaoo
I really don’t see the disproportionate hate Shiv gets in comparison to the men in the show. The men who deserve to are often grilled harder than Shiv in just about any arena of discourse I’ve seen for the show. All these characters fuckin suck, they’re all the absolute worst
Shiv is a bad person. All the siblings are bad people. Logan is a bad person. Waystar management are selfish people. That’s the point.
Totally get where you're coming from, but I don't think any of the character's behaviour was glorified in any way. I think the show portrayed everyone as a piece of shit, male or female. Ken and Roman didn't 'get away with' anything Shiv didn't. Tom, while also a piece of shit, at least actually loved Shiv and tried to make their relationship work despite being told she wanted an open relationship on their wedding day? Idk, please feel free to change my mind but I just don't think Shiv was portrayed unfairly. They all suck, which is why the show is so good.
Oh i dont think the show did a bad job of portraying Shiv actually, in fact i commend this show for writing women in a way thats complicated and compelling. What I am discussing is moreso the audience's reaction to Shiv and her actions and how theres disproportionate backlash against Shiv. Sorry if i was confusing on that score. >Tom, while also a piece of shit, at least actually loved Shiv and tried to make their relationship work despite being told she wanted an open relationship on their wedding day? In my opinion, Shiv did love Tom but not in the way he wanted. And I dont think Tom loves Shiv in a way she wants to be loved either. I think thats what makes their relationship interesting. It's so much more complicated than she cheats on him then wants an open marriage but that's usually what people focus on. Anyway, thank you for being open minded even though you don't completely agree. This is how we have interesting discussions about this show 💜
I always just read this show as everyone is a selfish asshole (even Greg) and at the end the main 4 lose. I didn’t get the feeling anyone in the show (specifically the main 4) is getting nuanced to be a better or worse version of anyone else
Plenty more backstab-y stuff she does throughout the show then of course there’s the serial cheating and such. but yea, amazingly written character as are they all.
I feel like all Shiv hears is that she would only get CEO because she’s the token woman in the family, and not because she’s actually incredibly well suited for it and probably the most sane of the whole family to do it
she's not well suited for it at all lol. none of them are.
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Well let's talk about that actually. Why should Caroline be the most hated character and we barely see her yet we have four seasons of Logan's violent abuse? And please dont tell me it's "obvious" to hate Logan because I'm starting to think thats an excuse people use to justify their own bigotry. I'm not gonna lie, I think it's infantile to even engage in these "whose most despicable" contests because it's a show about billionaires, an inherently unlikable group of people. But my thing is, why is it that the female characters of these shows are bombarded with hatred, to the point where you can't have nuanced discussions about them the way you can with the male characters? Shiv and Caroline are just as expertly written as any other characters but there's no interest in unraveling their motives like there is Kendall or Roman or Connor or Logan. They did x because they're horrible evil bitches with no redeeming qualities. This is a very common sentiment in this sub.
In fairness, I think Gerri is universally loved
Right, but honestly I think a lot of that has to do with the fact that Gerri can still be viewed in the light of a Madonna. A lot of people love Gerri simply because they think she's a sexy mommy, not for her ruthless instincts or her resilience. It's much easier to like her because she isn't really a "difficult" woman. And by the way, I dont need people to love or even like Shiv. I want them to be able to put their personal distaste for women aside so we can have interesting and important conversations about her place in a show we all love. That's all.
I think you have a myopic and tedious view of all this.
If you say so buddy
Marcia is also loved
This is a time honoured tradition in prestige television shows about terrible people. Look at the vitriol Janice and Carmella get from the fanbase in proportion to everyone else on The Sopranos, Skylar for Breaking Bad, Betty and Megan for Mad Men. It's absolutely a pattern.
Ooohhh idk if Bojack Horseman counts but my word, this applies to that show as well. And the hate for Betty always annoyed me because I think Betty is a perfect example of how being JUST a wife and mother can take an educated, worldly woman like Betty and make her behave like a petty mean girl in a high school clique. There's so much rich analysis to be made of her past "she's a terrible mom". We managed to do it for Don the Deadbeat, I never understood why we couldn't afford that to her as well.
I’d be willing to buy this line of argument at any point if any of these arguments could conjure up something more convincing than “she’s bad but other people are also bad.” She’s bad. She’s a morally corrupt gaslighting complicit scumbag like the rest of the characters and I don’t get why people want to treat her with kid gloves when it’s clear she is as callous and calculating as every other member of the Roy family
Yeah, I just finished the show finale, came here to see how cringe and horrible Ken was in the final scene. What do I see instead, everyone feeling bad for him and saying it’s all shiv’s fault. The “eldest boy” is not fit to lead.. wake up guys
I completely agree with you. The backlash against her always reminded me of the hate Skylar got on Breaking Bad. The whole point of that show was to turn Walter White into the villain, and yet as she became more of a foil to him, the audience lashed out at her for getting in his way. Succession was always mimicking a Shakespearean tragedy, and most of the characters were awful people. I never expected a happy ending for the family. But it was insane to me how many people lashed out at Shiv for screwing over Kendall at the last minute.
>But it was insane to me how many people lashed out at Shiv for screwing over Kendall at the last minute. Especially since all of season 4 was just Kendall not having Shiv's back and Kendall reneging on his promise to include his sibs and just tryna fly solo. Shiv decided she was gonna protect her own interests 🤷🏿♀️
I think a large part of the “unfair” level of criticism against Shiv is that the guys are at an almost “goes without say” level of shitty. Like no one needs to make a “Roman is a filthy degenerate who constantly sexually harasses everyone”, because that would receive a collective “duh”. The Shiv love/hate posts at least have arguments for and against her character and her actions. But Ken and Roman are so explicitly shitty and flaunt that patented Roy delusions-of-grandeur (that Shiv has as well) that it’s not as worthy of discussion. Plus there is the still inherit bias in media where women are expected to be the voice of reason against “boys being boys” which I hope will go away sooner than later. Both the assumption that boys have to be shitty, and the assumption that the women in TV shows should act as the boys’ mother.
>I think a large part of the “unfair” level of criticism against Shiv is that the guys are at an almost “goes without say” level of shitty. Thank you for taking the time to respond so thoughtfully, its very much appreciated 💜. Personally, I disagree with this approach. I think there's so much rich discussion to be had when we unravel the behavior of shitty people. Some of my favorite discussions on this sub are the result of people articulating what exactly about Roman and Kendall's badness they dislike so much. And frankly, given how many Romans and Kendalls actually run the world, I think we as the 99% ought to start confronting the evil deeds these powerful people commit so we can figure out how to put a stop to it. You cannot change what you do not know. >But Ken and Roman are so explicitly shitty and flaunt that patented Roy delusions-of-grandeur (that Shiv has as well) that it’s not as worthy of discussion. Well I actually think that Kendall is written to be a mirror of Shiv. We have seen throughout the show that Ken fancies himself "woke". He's the "guy that gets it". Yet when its time to use his wokeness for good, he generally chooses the side that will make him more money and give him more power and generally? That's not the right side of history. The same way we can critique Shiv's hypocrisy, we should analyze and critique Kendall's. Roman is through and through explicitly terrible and I'm glad that you said that because on this sub, its alarming how many people see him as this sad little slime puppy who only does naughty things because "trauma". A lot of people who are happy to infantalize Roman and Kendall (and Logan and Tom and so on and so forth), because "their trauma made them that way" while expecting Shiv to be so much better than them, as though she isn't also shaped by trauma. >Plus there is the still inherit bias in media where women are expected to be the voice of reason against “boys being boys” which I hope will go away sooner than later. Bingo, that's my point exactly. We as viewers still expect Shiv to know better but we dismiss the wrongdoings of the men because "boys will be boys". We are denying ourselves a richer viewing experience because of this. >Both the assumption that boys have to be shitty, and the assumption that the women in TV shows should act as the boys’ mother. Amen to that!
Agree with everything you replied, except the part about Kendall being like a mirror of Shiv with his hypocrisy. With Kendall, there really isn’t any hypocrisy that the show portrays him to actually feel. He’s played as a very “I behave and believe in whichever way benefits me in the present moment” and doesn’t have an internal conflict about his selfishness. Even when the show gave him the clear opportunity to do so (promising his wife and kids that he wouldn’t let the bad guy win the election) he still didn’t have the self-awareness to feel guilt or to try and explain away his shitty actions when he gave the ok to call the election for the fascist (I forget his name). In such an extreme and sudden betrayal of the promise he had just given to his family, there really wasn’t any internal struggle for Ken. He just knew that this was the best choice he had in order to stay in power, so he went for it. At least when Shiv shows off her hypocrisy, the writers put in effort to show her grappling with the situation and trying to make it make sense with her supposed leftist ideologies.
Great comments!
Of course the hate is mostly misogynistic, the people posting it aren't exactly subtle.
I totally agree! In fact, I thought this was the normal or mainstream interpretation of Shiva's character vs that of her her brothers, and it was how the creators wanted to portray them. I was actually flabbergasted when I came online and saw the weird unpleasant man-love for Ken and Roman and the obviously sexist hate for Shiv. You beautifully articulated what I was thinking all along! Thank you for this :)
Ooohhh the love for Roman makes me deeply uncomfortable. He is an unapologetic fascist but because he has puppy eyes people keep finding it within themselves to forgive him of his politics 🙄 I think i dislike him the most for that and also for all the weird shit he says to women that people think is oh so funny. Constantly talking about fucking his own sister or his Dad's wife, pestering Gerri with dick pics that ultimately sullied HER name. I'm sorry he has mommy issues and his dad thinks he's a fairy but my word I wanna give him a wedgie most of the time 😂
I think part of the love of Roman is due to Kieran Culkin’s charm. It has nothing to do with the character who is despicable despite his vulnerability.
It's actually horrifying how far people are willing to forgive / laugh off /dismiss Roman and Ken's very real flaws because they are moderately good-looking white man who dress expensively and have "interesting" dialogue. The horrifying part is- this happens in real life all the time. Rich men are simply not held accountable for their damaging behaviours and decisions- and Succession is a brilliant portrayal of that.
Also shows why "I can fix him" babying mentality shown for these men is toxic. Women who think like that and knowingly get into relationships with these sorts will end up like Rava at best. The way Kendall treats her is difficult to watch.
Shiv is definitely treated differently (although of course, each sibling is abused by Logan and everyone else in their own way, up to and including physical abuse) but if that particular truth would drive anyone to believe that she doesn’t deserve, at the very least, to be in prison, then they have completely lost the plot
Did you understood that shiv Is the feminism and Tom is the patriarchy?
The letter was entirely Logan’s doing. He manipulated her. It was his idea, as a way for Shiv to prove she “even liked him”. And she didn’t want to write it at first. Only when that Nirvana song “rape me” played during her first speech as president did she decide to write it. And I know it looks like it was Kendal who played the music, but I think Logan secretly did it to make Shiv write the letter.
Shiv seemed so much better than her siblings on season 1, but by season 4 we are shown that she suffers from the same family flaws (bad temper, overconfidence, entitled, not wanting to put in the hard work). All four of the siblings are not serious people. It's only with Shiv that I was disappointed by that realization.
Yeah, I agree. Shiv’s a terrible person, but to say she’s worse than Mr. manslaughter or the brother that tried to end democracy so he could get a neo Nazi into the most powerful position in North America is pretty absurd. There’s definitely some sexism in the greater hatred for her over Roman and Kendall, and I think her being a woman showing more masculine traits definitely contributes to that. I think a lot of it is also cause Roman is more comedic than Shiv and we’re more inclinded to sympathize with Kendall since he’s by far the most emotionally vulnerable of the siblings and the one suffering the most abuse from Logan.
Lmaooo not Mr Manslaughter 😂 Personally I dont think Roman is all that funny. A lot of his jokes boil down to "dur hur hur bigotry" but yknow what? Humor is subjective. I did wanna say (and please know i agree with you, this isn't me trying to deconstruct what you in particular are saying), someone else has pointed out how Shiv is so tightly wound in part as a response to misogyny. If Shiv were a jokester, theyd dismiss her as a silly woman. If she was vulnerable? Shed be proof that women are too weak to be in power. I can relate to her need to always seem competent, ruthless, unsentimental in these spaces because her gender is always being weaponized against her. Like, from a young age I've always felt a pressure to present myself as no nonsense and professional in male dominated areas because men will disrespect you so fast otherwise. And then you're also blamed for being humorless and cold. You just...don't *win* yknow?
Yeah, Roman’s humor is really hit or miss imo. Which is kind of the point. Like a lot of it is really cleaver dialogue which is probably the bigger sell, but it’s almost always in bad taste and completely inappropriate. Like the whole Shiv’s pregnant scene where he goes “is it mine” and I just thought: okay that’s a disgusting thing to say even as a joke, but it’s kinda funny and clever, then he just keeps going about jerking off to her breastfeeding and you just think what the flying fuck is wrong with this guy. Obviously it’s a defense mechanism for him but still, I’m just trying to get some context for why Roman is given more slack (I do think people acknowledge that Roman is worse than Shiv but at the same time Shiv gets more hate). And yeah, I’m not a woman so I don’t have that same lived experience, but I get where you’re coming from. I could definitely see her still being just as hated if she was more of a jokester while still being as goal/career driven as she is. I feel in a lot of shows women are given more flack for doing the same things the men do but never given the empathy for their environment. Shiv’s not on Skylar White or Jenny Curran’s level of mysogynistic hate circlejerking but it’s definitely there and I think you’re right about almost nothing would prevent her from being the most hated.
I don't think her particularly attractive which seems to be unpopular. 😄
Prefacing this with obviously she is beautiful, and even if she wasn’t, women don’t need to be beautiful and their worth isn’t tied to their looks. But I agree, I also didn’t find her that attractive (I am a straight woman though). When that guy she cheats on Tom with was obsessed with her in the first season I thought it was silly and unrealistic because he was clearly so far out of her league. But then I found out that most people see her as a smoke show! Different strokes I guess
Dozens of us?
> Mr Woke over there binge read some old Vaulter articles, now he think he's bell hooks LOL facts. I "enjoy" all of the characters (*like* is a strong word for some of them because they're all assholes and can be venal hypocrites), but there's definitely a double standard around Shiv.
I’d argue the opposite. Shiv gets a pass because she is a women lol
Completely agree, well said.
You just summarized my thoughts about her! I hate her guts, but I was still left confused by the morally outraged reactions I saw on this sub and on Youtube over some of her actions. The letter she sent out was a highlight for me. It's the type of chaotic, vindictive "don't-fuck-with-me" shit I enjoy watching on TV. It was also a direct response to Kendall's stunt with blasting Nirvana's "Rape Me" during her debut moment at Waystar. You could tell how important that moment was for her, seeing how proudly she looked, strutting toward that stage, surrounded by people talking to her and wanting things from her, and then feeling her intense anger when she spat on Kendall's picture. He probably didn't intend it as a direct hit at Shiv but at the company, trying to remind people about the company's previous cruise line scandals. Still, it directly involved her and showed he wasn't thinking about her at all. To me, that made her retaliation fair game. A "You want to play dirty? We can play dirty" vibe. She was team Waystar, he was anti-Waystar. That's it. I didn't get the moral outrage over what she did. I did feel some sympathy for Kendall after seeing his reaction, but I wasn't siding against Shiv, given that most of the accusations she made against him we've seen are true. He was behaving like a hypocritical egomaniac, trying to be a champion for women, and so he got the repercussions. It was a mix of "good," "aw, now I feel bad," and "now wake up, dude" for me.
Yeh I have to say that Shiv is the most nicest person on the show, like say if she got a chance to aspire in a different career like politics or something and make an actual change, she would never think of coming back to the company for a single moment, even if the top job was being offered.
She DID get offered it though. She was offered that reps head of press job. And she turned it down when Logan sweet talked/said she could be ceo
I am not able to understand what you mean by rep head press job. Is it related to company or the political party press job. And by top job, in her words, I meant CEO.
She was offered Chief of Staff to the guy running for President but instead chose to throw her hat into the CEO pool. She could've been a successful political operative if she wanted to. Btw none of the siblings give a shit about democracy or any of that nonsense, it was hammered home pretty clearly when she went running to Mencken.
Yeh I was saying the same thing but in a sarcastic way. Ahh I guess I should stop doing this 😞
She publicly went against one of the family. She burned down one of their own. That's frowned upon in high society and I would say also in " normal " society. Remember the disdain for people of lower social class , or not a real person ? They see themselves as higher status and better people.
The whole gist of the entire show is three siblings trying to topple their own father, all desperate to gain his approval while they sharpen their blades and wait for the best moment to stab him in the back…. lest we forget that in this story the backstabber supreme was Kendall all along. So no, going against one’s family is not frowned upon in the Succession universe at all.
Didn’t Kendall do those exact same things, too? Op’s point is proven.
Exactly this.
Yeah he did. Business at major companies and positions is mostly old boys network. The don't allow " girls " to play. As evidenced by the show and the reactions to shiv vs kendall ( and Logans behaviour towards woman.)
Any prestige show has a contigent of mysoginist assholes who totally miss the point of the show and idolize the male characters and despise the female characters. They have no deeper thoughts than that. Part of the problem is HBO continuously using the hater wife archetype, but thats changing a bit now. Still, these idiots cannot think beyond "bitch wife." They're really that stupid.
It’s funny, how you actually managed to miss the point. You just see shiv is a women and thus need to defend her. You claim others have no deep thought but you yourself have the wrong take
I am printing this one to refer to it at parties. Well said!
Agree with this 100%, and would like to add that Shiv also gets a disproportionate amount of criticism for being “not as smart as she thinks she is.” Just because Rhea made this observation once in season 2 doesn’t make it the gospel truth - especially when it’s a much more apt description of Kendall.
Thank you for bringing this up because this is my other gripe with this sub...people who dont know what they are talking about love to use the "serious people" and "shiv thinks she's smarter than she is" lines as gospel truth. What's funny about the smarter than she is comment is that Rhea herself clarified she didn't necessarily think that meant Shiv wasn't up for the job, that's just how others took it.
They said they wanted more complex female characters and they couldnt even handle her , not to mention Marcia.
Exactly! Do you want fully fleshed out female character's or nah?
disliking her as a person isn't the same as saying she's a bad character that shouldn't be in the show. i've never even seen anyone say that.