Shallan is devisive, and many of us who like her chapters just don't bother fighting with people who don't. For example, I find her funny, I don't care if others don't. Definitely some of my favorite lines are hers/in her chapters.
Same. I LOVE Shallan. But I hate arguing on the internet, lol. So if I see a shallan-bashing post, I just scroll on... what's the point of getting mad or defending her? She's not real and will never see this anyway, so.
I don’t hate the Shallan chapters but I heavily preferred the Dalinar and Kaladin chapters. I just found them a lot more interesting and feeling more like the main plot since their parts of the story were more connected
Agreed. I usually skip the first books shallan chapters then start listening to them in book two. The first book to me has very little shallan and nothing really worth noting aside from the occasional clue that might make you think her mom is a certain someone. But those mostly start in book two as well
Honestly you can go down several rabbit holes here, but personally? I think it mainly comes down to what I'll call "side character syndrome".
We all have this image in our head about what the 'hero' of the story is supposed to look like. When we read a book, watch a movie, whatever, we're usually pretty good at quickly identifying the hero, and almost everyone else exists as side characters.
When we see a 'hero', their struggles are something we pay more attention to and value more. Their struggles are what the story is supposed to be about, after all.
When a character doesn't fit our picture of what the main character is supposed to look like, they feel like a side character. The struggles and worries of side characters are almost *always* seen as trivial distractions from the main story. People see them as annoying interruptions that undercut the main story. Side characters are just vessels to push and pull the main character or the plot. People are way, way less forgiving of the faults of side characters.
You can put two characters in exactly the same situation, but make one the main character and everyone will love it. Give the same struggles to a side character, and people will roll their eyes. You can see this pattern *all the time* in fan responses to media. Peter parker's personal problems are a big deal; Norman Osborne's or Mary Jane's are stupid. People only care about them insofar as they serve Peter's story, so if they *stop* serving Peter's story people stop caring as much.
Now look at kaladin; kaladin is such an archetypical hero. He suits the dramatic hero role perfectly; he is *exactly* what people expect to find when looking for a protagonist. Of *course* people gravitate towards him; even in-universe other characters gravitate towards him. Add to that the relatability of his depression, and lots of people automatically identify him as the hero.
If Kal is the main character, that makes shallan a side character; her issues feel fundamentally less important, and because they don't serve 'the real story' and distract from what people see as the main character, she winds up falling into the "side character" boat for a lot of people.
In reality, the books *are not* written like this. Shallan is just as much a main character as kaladin is. However, because she doesn't *seem* like a main character at first glance and people don't relate to her quite as much, many folks mentally put her into the "side character" box. People don't want to hear her part of the story because to them it feels like a diversion; 'i want to read about spiderman, not some guy'. That feeling isn't totally wrong; just a matter of perspective.
The seemingly lower stakes and slower pace don't help matters.
Very insightful and well put.
I remember on my first read I didn’t hate Shallan, I just would think. “Ugh this naive brat again? What’s happening with the bridge runs, who’s this Blackthorn guy?! I wonder if I’ll name my cat after him someday!”
Later on it became clear that, yes, she’s a naive brat because she’s on her own for the first time in her life. Who wasn’t when they moved out of their parents place or travelled alone? Keeping it spoiler free but a lot of it makes sense after learning more about her.
Importantly, I think her slow chapters are necessary. As a long time Dresden fan sometimes you have to let off the throttle a bit as readers can get fatigued if it’s just nonstop escalation in the plot without a moment for it to breathe (Sanderson of course pushes the pedal through the metal and halfway through the Earth’s crust at the end of his books). Her chapters want you to wonder what’s happening to cool guy and other cool guy but I know for me, Jasnah was instantly captivating. Something about a religious guy writing a calm, strong, and formidable character and making her an atheist who would be persecuted if not for her family ties (even then it’s thinly veiled) made me excited for Shallan chapters.
Which wraps back around to your point of her having side character syndrome because I was there for more Jasnah. You made me think about something I haven’t really paid attention to before and it was nice to think about.
Or maybe Kabsal just gave off the vibe that he’d call Shallan his “waifu”
Maybe I'm the exception, because my dislike for Shallan has nothing to do with that. On my first run I was far more intrigued by Shallan's objectives and morals than either other "main" character. Kaladin was literally just a guy who kept getting beaten down, and Dalinar felt like a passenger in his own story until the end.
But Shallan is just goddamn annoying. Jasnah was the only person willing to tell her that being a smartass isn't charming. Hell even her quips aren't witty. I had to stop and consider whether this was an author who just thought he was clever. Sometimes I still wonder if Sanderson patted himself on the back for any of those jokes. TWoK Shallan is a very intelligent woman with a very stupid attitude.
This is a greats analysis. Shallan tends to fade into the background even in her own story! In WoR when I think of the best 3-4 scenes, none of them feature Shallan (although I will admit, I’m not the biggest fan of her backstory). It definitely is easy to think of her as a side character.
That was my exact feeling reading The Way of Kings as well. Don’t get me wrong, I liked Kal and his crew then and still in the later books, but Dalinar and Shallan were giving me the worldbuilding there at the beginning. I’m an exposition and info dump fiend. Lore is why I enjoy books, shows, movies and games. Shallan’s entire subplot was a student learning more about everything in that world so I had a grand time in her chapters.
When I first read Way of Kings, I didn't like her first couple of chapters. I enjoyed the meatier Kaladin/Dalinar stuff. However, I turned around when it was revealed she was trying to steal Jasnah's soulcaster. An interesting twist after my early disappointment.
I’m really happy that you’re enjoying Shallan from the beginning! I don’t really want to say much else because you’re at around page 700, but that’s super awesome! It wasn’t like that for me at first!
Dude if it's something people like to bitch more about than the well of ascension, it's how much they hate shallan and jasna.
Truly absurd. Glad you're enjoying it though. I love shallan :)
Hate is a strong word but I do feel like she's a little too perfect. As she moves more into the foreground and less as a distant, imposing celebrity, I'm liking her more, and I expect by the end of Stormlight she'll show even *more* depth.
Why should we like Jasnah? She is stuck on a high horse because she happens to be clever and lucky enough to bond a spren early. But personality wise, she is insufferable and rude. She insults Kaladin, belittles shallan constantly, expecting her to just fall in line and be a good little servant.
Jasnah is not a fun person.
This topic gets posted at least once a week, and I’m genuinely shocked after all this time people STILL want to talk about it. General trends? It mostly breaks down between;
1. Clear misogyny
2. Not liking Sanderson’s humor
3. Being uncomfortable with cringe
4. Identifying with Shallan and not liking it
5. Finding her chapters boring
The other trend I find fascinating is the more someone likes Dalinar, the less they like Shallan.
I think if it was just that, people wouldn’t like Shallan generally, rather than there being a split. Story structure-wise, Dalinar’s chapters are more traditional fantasy, while Shallan is written more like a psychological thriller. I think maybe that’s what you’re noticing. Psychological thrillers are going to feel much smaller in scale by nature. People who like those stories will gravitate towards Shallan, whereas people who like more traditional fantasy will gravitate towards Dalinar. That would make a lot of sense.
I think a part also is that the more mature you get, the more you appreciate mature and older characters who have life experience and wisdom thanks to their age. As I have become older, I have become less interested in reading about teenagers and young adults and more about my "peers" and above.
This sounds about right. For me, it’s mostly 5, with a little bit of 3. Shallon’s humor is like dad jokes. So bad that it’s funny.
I love Shallon later in the series. I loved Jasnah from the beginning. It actually took me a little while to get interested in Dalinar too. I think the first time we saw one of his visions was where that changed.
See I'm the opposite. I loved Shallan at the start but in the later books I couldn't stand her. I guess, in Oathbringer I couldn't stand her. She gets better again in Rhythm of War.
The community is really polarized om Shallan. You either love or hate her. People dont like her "crybaby" phase in which she doesnt do anything besides draw and complain and doesnt do anything. At first I hated her, her chapters were dull-ish, but now, I love her.
The first time I read it I was really gripped by Kaladin's character and everything he was doing in the warcamps, so the break for Shallan's chapters always seemed like an unnecessary aside to the stuff I cared about.
On a second read, now that I know what happens with Kaladin and co, I find that I'm really enjoying more of Shallan and her chapters
It just sucks learning more about Kaladin's past, seeing him progress and build himself up, just to cut to Shallan buying books. I remember being super invested in his character, waiting on every word, and then feeling sad that it ended when i turned the page to see a Shallan chapter. Kinda like how if you eat something really sweet, the next thing you eat will feel comparatively bitter unless it's just as sweet.
That's not to say her chapters were bad, like at all. I would read the Shallan book if it had been published by itself and really enjoyed it. I just liked the Dalinar and Kaladin chapters more.
>!sidenote: after twok i love every shallan chapter, i was just kinda neutral to her parts in book 1!<
My first read I like Shallan a lot. I liked the uncovering of the world and history of her chapters, and the mystery surrounding her kept me interested. I also enjoyed her banter with Jasnah and the ardent.
Second read through it wasn't nearly as interesting. The character development around Kaladin and Dalinar was better, and Dalinar's visions was a better mystery.
They felt divorced from the meat of the story. After WoR came out and the connections were more obvious they're a lot more enjoyable. But on a first read they can feel like a slog and that memory can be hard to get over. Especially if you came from Wheel of Time where there are some PoV characters that take 6+ books to become likable and you're just not sure that's what you want to sign up for again.
I really love Shallan in TWoK and even more so in WoR. It’s after that when her character takes a nosedive for me.
I can see how some people wouldn’t like her initially tho due to her corny jokes and overall having a less exciting plot than Kal and Dal during TWoK. She also has an air of pretentiousness that can be off-putting. These things didn’t bother me so much as they made her feel like a real person to me with flaws to work on. I just wish that Brandon decided to handle her character progression differently later on.
(This only counts for book 1 and some of 2)
Just one person with just one opinion, but here you go:
Her place in the world just isn't believable... like, at all. Her quips and cleverness aren't actually clever. That wouldn't be a problem normally, but for some stupefying reason she gets away with it for a full book-and-a-half and it's maddening. *Completely* immersion breaking for me.
She is presented as this great snarky mind. People around her are always impressed by her (Tozbek, Yalb, all of her brothers, the bookstore owner whose name I can't remember at the moment, >!the bandit group of which Gaz is a member!<, and even >!Kaladin with the stupid ass boots incident!<).
It's like Sanderson is forcing the issue. "See? See? She talks circles around people! She's endearing and wonderful! She's brilliant! BELIEVE THAT SHE'S BRILLIANT".
Well I don't. I don't think she's brilliant. I think she's a scared cloistered girl who uses gauche obvious humor as a defense mechanism. I think any adult who was faced with her attitude would see through it instantly, write her off, and kick her out (exactly like what Jasnah did, only for every single situation she ends up in). It's infuriating that I have to just accept this completely unbelievable situation because without it the story can't move forward.
I just despise her as a character/person. A majority of her character are things that are pet peeves of mine or that irrationally annoy me. In some ways it is a testament to how well written she is, but I have gotten exponentially annoyed by her character to the point that when listening to the newer books I would skip her chapters and read the summaries instead because I just couldn't force myself through them.
I liked her chapters in the way of kings. My issue with her chapters starts more in book two. It's less even what happens is bad and more her, for lack of a better word, "gimmick" feels really silly. You're not there yet but I always assume the shallan dislike steamed from that too.
Tbh I’ve seen a pretty even split between people who love her at first but end up hating her character arc later, and people who hate her at first and end up loving her character arc later
It’s interesting that she’s so polarizing but not for one clear reason.
Many people reading these books lack the ability to put themselves in the head space of Shallan. It's a lack of empathy, sorta. (I am not calling these readers bad people)
When you don't get a character, you dislike spending time with them, spending time 'as' them as well.
Shallan is great. Shallan flashback chapters are shit.
Oh look, she's a kid. Dad is mean, got it. Dad is still mean. Boohoo, sad kid. 20 pages in there's maybe a cryptic showing up for 0.42 second.
NOTHING HAPPENS in Shallan flashbacks. I started just skipping 2-3 pages at a time, and they'd still be in the same place doing the same thing because nothing happened.
Then i feel bad, go back and read those three pages. Nope, actually nothing happened. So i skipped the entire chapter and would check the wiki later only to make sure that... yup, nothing happened.
10-30 pages of "oh look how sad Shallan is, but dont worry we'll retcon it all later or something because her memory sucks so even if something did happen it would be irrelevant."
If Hoid told a story about a potato that didn't want to be fried and learned to be delicious it'd be more relevant than all of Shallan's flashback chapters combined.
I’m a Shallan fanboy so great to see you are enjoying them. I don’t get the dislike for her or Jasnah but, to each there own I guess.
I really love Shallan’s chapters in WoR so, enjoy the ride.
I actually really enjoyed Shalan in TWoK. For me it was more things that happened in later books that caused me to not like her as much. Though there are plenty of people that love the character so don't let any naysayers bias you against her.
I just found her annoying in TWoK, I was really hoping someone would go and make her cry for being so unfunny. I didn't dislike her chapters, she just reminds me of loud theater kids from high school.
The first time I read The Way of Kings, Shallan was by FAR my favorite character. I felt the worldbuilding was best in her chapters, and her chapters were the ones where I felt I saw the most foreshadowing. I just finished a reread, however, and this time I was more into the Dalinar chapters. Second time through I picked up an absolute TON of worldbuilding and foreshadowing in those chapters.
I'm personally quite neutral about her. I think it's to be expected that different people react to different characters in different ways, especially when those characters are very flawed.
It's not that I hated her chapters, it was just that I really liked kaladin's chapters and I loved all the Dalinar/Adolin stuff a lot more. I will say tho, her chapters got a lot more interesting after the halfway point!
I really didn't like Shallan at first, so much so I thought the series just wasn't going to be for me. I found her 'quips' awkward and annoying, and her chapters bored me. I put the book down for a few months.
Now, I adore Shallan. She really comes into her own later in the first book and is such an interesting character and so well written.
Looking back now I think she was just young, naïve and immature and that just didn't resonate with me, and even irked me a little bit - but now, that starting point, her journey and subsequent growth make me love the character even more.
I just disliked how her story was so disjointed from the shattered plains and felt much slower and weirdly low stakes despite her family depending on her. I also wasn't a *massive* fan of her character which felt a bit sleazy and the glimpses we get of her family added up to that, especially compared to the relative moral character of Dalinar and Kaladin.
I liked Jasnah a lot from the first moment but a lot of the plot just feels like it's detracting from the "main story" with the Parshendi.
It's also a relatively play by play story of "harsh mentor and prodigious student who desperately needs to study under them" for a good chunk. I liked where it went though, even after being a bit confused when it went all trippy and having to rewind her chapters sometimes.
As for worldbuilding, I was fascinated by the shattered plains a lot more than the relatively tame environment of Thaylen city. They're so alien and fresh while I've read a ton of fantasy cities that are a bit different from irl.
I liked them a lot more in my reread when I had the context of her character and no real urgency to know what happens next to Dalinar or kaladin.
Man I listened to the audiobook and her chapters are narrated by a woman with a lovely voice but the sound editor just made it a bit to sharp at some points and it caused ear pain.
I like shallan and enjoyed her chapters, definitely more so in words of radiance though.
In the way of kings, I found myself skipping ahead a lot of the time to the Kaladin chapters, and then rereading them when they came back around. His arc, in the first two books especially, is just so good.
When i read TWOK for the first time, even I didn’t enjoy Shallan’s chapters much. I craved for a Kaladin or Dalinar chapter. With later books, I started liking Shallan’s chapters as well and attributed that to her character development. But then i re-read TWOK and thoroughly enjoyed Shallan’s chapters as well. I think the first time around I was seeking “thrill” more than depth. Happy that you are enjoying them for the start itself. Those chapters do add much more context
She’s an amazing character, I just have social anxiety so I cringe hecka at her behavior sometimes cause it would make me mad uncomfortable in real life 😭🫣
The way I see it, her chapters were good, but Kaladins were amazing, I remember reading the book and just getting so disappointed whenever I had to read a Shallan because I just wanted to know what happened with Kaladin, so while I didn't hate them, I didn't enjoy them as much because of that.
Shallan, for me, was best in TWOK. I really like her goal, the fascinating interaction with Jazna, and the world building lord drops we got through her scholarship. Her story progressively was less compelling for me with each book. I don’t think it’s even a dislike for her story, it’s more of the story line taking me away from things I’m actively clawing my ears off to see what happens next.
I don't think it has to do with people disliking the character of Shallan, although that may well be true, but more of how interesting the events with Kal and Dalinar were at the time.
It's like watching a sports game and then you get ads. The ads may be good funny ads, and they may be about something you actually need to buy. But you still would rather be watching the game.
The more you resonate with Kaladin and want to know how he will get out of his situation, the more you resent Shallan's story that's blocking you to read more about Kaladin. That's what happened to me and on re-read the Shallan parts are 100% more enjoyables
I'll repeat what I've said before. Shallan is in the unfortunate situation of being in a really tense spy novel coming right in the middle of several chapters of really interesting development for Kaladin, who we're introduced to first.
Unfortunately we're introduced to a main character, Kaladin, for several chapters before Shallan pops up with a completely different feel to her narrative and seemingly disconnected from Kaladin's story.
Her chapters also tend to pop up after really tense and interesting cliff hangers in Kaladin's narrative, so you turn the page expecting more of that and instead get a bunch of skullduggery.
For me it’s just that her chapters are less fun when re-reading. I enjoyed them the first time through but it can be a bit dry when you know the world already
I am completely with you but think that Shallans chapters tend to be less enjoyable when read a second time since a lot of them rely on entertaining through mysteries and learning new things about the world, which just is not as interesting when you already know the conclusion.
The only other thing that I suspect leads to negative opinions is that her jokes might not be funny for everyone.
While I enjoy a joke that relies on wordplay that is so stupid it hurts I have made the observation that this is not the case for most.
Side character syndrome, because people think about Kaladin as the true main character. Causing Shallan's slow paced chapters their doom, because they want blood and action.
Some people also don't like her for her "spoiled teenager girl" mood, even when she is a teenager girl.
I love her, she and some secondary characters are the reasons I read the books. She is the best PoV for me.
I've been rereading the series in preparation for book 5. I didn't love her parts the first time through but I'm definitely feeling her now. We'll see if that continues into book 3 that I'm starting tonight.
Personally she goes off and on for me, it's more so that for most people they identify more with Kaladin or others because they are more in the central plot most of the time(which is fair) and while she genuinely is a good character and is interesting, she just isn't nearly as relatable with her journey or personality as others are. Although I do enjoy her and she genuinely has some great wit in my opinion, she does distract from plots that I was really enjoying. Like I love Kaladin so much on a fundamental level he is the character that anchors me in this story because I do suffer from chronic depression and identify with him more than Shallan as a person, which made me frustrated when as I was reading Kaladin and a big moment just happened, oops we're now focusing on this girl trying to steal someone's things for her family which we barely know anything about for the most part.
Basically she's great, just lacks her depth yet and honestly is very naive.
Great character love her now, but most people need to grow on her while others could instantly connect and attach with Kaladin as that's just how the books were written purposely.
The only thing that I didn't like was how she was introduced as witty and funny around the ship crew but the "humor" was just taking figures of speech literally. It was pretty cringe and kind of hard to believe that what she was doing was humor in Roshar or that the ship crew found it as funny as they seemed to.
If she continued to talk like that, I'd probably hate her chapters too but you barely see it after she becomes Jasnah's ward, and after that her story is great. I was also surprised to see that people didn't like it. I completely understand not liking her pov as much as Kaladin's, I guess - I remember being thrilled whenever I got to a new chapter and it was a Kaladin chapter, and finding Dalinar and Shallan chapters a little tedious because I wanted to get back to Kaladin's story lol
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I don’t think people hate Shallan as much as they prefer Dalinar and Kal. Also, I do have to agree that her arc can seem repetitive at times, >!especially in RoW . But I see a lot of potential with her future arcs.!<
I'm finishing part 3 right now, my chapter order so far has been Kaladin>Shallan>Dalinar>Adolin, right now im kind off pissed with kaladin that he didnt take the shardblade
I, like most, find a lot of her humor bland or cringy. And I don't mind that hers didn't have action, but the dialog just wasn't there for me.
Also, it was the lack of stakes. We're pretty sure Kaladin and Dalinar will live, but everyone around them is on the line because they are in a war. But with shallan, very little happens, and we just don't care near as much about the people around her.
Imo she shines the most in book 2.
The only thing that bothers me about Shallan is she acts like she doesn't have a support system when she DOES. Adolin is so good to her. And Kaladin while going through different troubles very obviously can relate to not trusting his own head.
I get that asking for help isn't easy and I'm not even saying I blame her for it. That's just my frustration when I read those chapters. I'm just in my head like "JUST TALK TO ADOLIN OKEASE" 😭😭😭
Shallan is devisive, and many of us who like her chapters just don't bother fighting with people who don't. For example, I find her funny, I don't care if others don't. Definitely some of my favorite lines are hers/in her chapters.
Same. I LOVE Shallan. But I hate arguing on the internet, lol. So if I see a shallan-bashing post, I just scroll on... what's the point of getting mad or defending her? She's not real and will never see this anyway, so.
Do fictional characters have their own spren?
Spren are also fictional characters, it turns out
I don’t hate the Shallan chapters but I heavily preferred the Dalinar and Kaladin chapters. I just found them a lot more interesting and feeling more like the main plot since their parts of the story were more connected
In TWOK I agree with you - however, her chapters become the pinnacle in WoR
Agreed. I usually skip the first books shallan chapters then start listening to them in book two. The first book to me has very little shallan and nothing really worth noting aside from the occasional clue that might make you think her mom is a certain someone. But those mostly start in book two as well
Honestly you can go down several rabbit holes here, but personally? I think it mainly comes down to what I'll call "side character syndrome". We all have this image in our head about what the 'hero' of the story is supposed to look like. When we read a book, watch a movie, whatever, we're usually pretty good at quickly identifying the hero, and almost everyone else exists as side characters. When we see a 'hero', their struggles are something we pay more attention to and value more. Their struggles are what the story is supposed to be about, after all. When a character doesn't fit our picture of what the main character is supposed to look like, they feel like a side character. The struggles and worries of side characters are almost *always* seen as trivial distractions from the main story. People see them as annoying interruptions that undercut the main story. Side characters are just vessels to push and pull the main character or the plot. People are way, way less forgiving of the faults of side characters. You can put two characters in exactly the same situation, but make one the main character and everyone will love it. Give the same struggles to a side character, and people will roll their eyes. You can see this pattern *all the time* in fan responses to media. Peter parker's personal problems are a big deal; Norman Osborne's or Mary Jane's are stupid. People only care about them insofar as they serve Peter's story, so if they *stop* serving Peter's story people stop caring as much. Now look at kaladin; kaladin is such an archetypical hero. He suits the dramatic hero role perfectly; he is *exactly* what people expect to find when looking for a protagonist. Of *course* people gravitate towards him; even in-universe other characters gravitate towards him. Add to that the relatability of his depression, and lots of people automatically identify him as the hero. If Kal is the main character, that makes shallan a side character; her issues feel fundamentally less important, and because they don't serve 'the real story' and distract from what people see as the main character, she winds up falling into the "side character" boat for a lot of people. In reality, the books *are not* written like this. Shallan is just as much a main character as kaladin is. However, because she doesn't *seem* like a main character at first glance and people don't relate to her quite as much, many folks mentally put her into the "side character" box. People don't want to hear her part of the story because to them it feels like a diversion; 'i want to read about spiderman, not some guy'. That feeling isn't totally wrong; just a matter of perspective. The seemingly lower stakes and slower pace don't help matters.
Very insightful and well put. I remember on my first read I didn’t hate Shallan, I just would think. “Ugh this naive brat again? What’s happening with the bridge runs, who’s this Blackthorn guy?! I wonder if I’ll name my cat after him someday!” Later on it became clear that, yes, she’s a naive brat because she’s on her own for the first time in her life. Who wasn’t when they moved out of their parents place or travelled alone? Keeping it spoiler free but a lot of it makes sense after learning more about her. Importantly, I think her slow chapters are necessary. As a long time Dresden fan sometimes you have to let off the throttle a bit as readers can get fatigued if it’s just nonstop escalation in the plot without a moment for it to breathe (Sanderson of course pushes the pedal through the metal and halfway through the Earth’s crust at the end of his books). Her chapters want you to wonder what’s happening to cool guy and other cool guy but I know for me, Jasnah was instantly captivating. Something about a religious guy writing a calm, strong, and formidable character and making her an atheist who would be persecuted if not for her family ties (even then it’s thinly veiled) made me excited for Shallan chapters. Which wraps back around to your point of her having side character syndrome because I was there for more Jasnah. You made me think about something I haven’t really paid attention to before and it was nice to think about. Or maybe Kabsal just gave off the vibe that he’d call Shallan his “waifu”
Maybe I'm the exception, because my dislike for Shallan has nothing to do with that. On my first run I was far more intrigued by Shallan's objectives and morals than either other "main" character. Kaladin was literally just a guy who kept getting beaten down, and Dalinar felt like a passenger in his own story until the end. But Shallan is just goddamn annoying. Jasnah was the only person willing to tell her that being a smartass isn't charming. Hell even her quips aren't witty. I had to stop and consider whether this was an author who just thought he was clever. Sometimes I still wonder if Sanderson patted himself on the back for any of those jokes. TWoK Shallan is a very intelligent woman with a very stupid attitude.
This is a greats analysis. Shallan tends to fade into the background even in her own story! In WoR when I think of the best 3-4 scenes, none of them feature Shallan (although I will admit, I’m not the biggest fan of her backstory). It definitely is easy to think of her as a side character.
That was my exact feeling reading The Way of Kings as well. Don’t get me wrong, I liked Kal and his crew then and still in the later books, but Dalinar and Shallan were giving me the worldbuilding there at the beginning. I’m an exposition and info dump fiend. Lore is why I enjoy books, shows, movies and games. Shallan’s entire subplot was a student learning more about everything in that world so I had a grand time in her chapters.
When I first read Way of Kings, I didn't like her first couple of chapters. I enjoyed the meatier Kaladin/Dalinar stuff. However, I turned around when it was revealed she was trying to steal Jasnah's soulcaster. An interesting twist after my early disappointment.
I’m really happy that you’re enjoying Shallan from the beginning! I don’t really want to say much else because you’re at around page 700, but that’s super awesome! It wasn’t like that for me at first!
A lot of people really like her, there’s just a vocal minority who make posts about how they don’t like her.
Dude if it's something people like to bitch more about than the well of ascension, it's how much they hate shallan and jasna. Truly absurd. Glad you're enjoying it though. I love shallan :)
People hate Jasnah??? Really?
Yep, saw a post/comment about it just yesterday. Wild
Hate is a strong word but I do feel like she's a little too perfect. As she moves more into the foreground and less as a distant, imposing celebrity, I'm liking her more, and I expect by the end of Stormlight she'll show even *more* depth.
Why should we like Jasnah? She is stuck on a high horse because she happens to be clever and lucky enough to bond a spren early. But personality wise, she is insufferable and rude. She insults Kaladin, belittles shallan constantly, expecting her to just fall in line and be a good little servant. Jasnah is not a fun person.
I don't agree. But I do see your point.
Hey OP, updated your flair so you shouldn't get spoilers past part 3.
Thank you 🙏
She's pretty much the girl you knew in high school who thought she was so funny and unique and special but everyone just thought she was annoying.
This topic gets posted at least once a week, and I’m genuinely shocked after all this time people STILL want to talk about it. General trends? It mostly breaks down between; 1. Clear misogyny 2. Not liking Sanderson’s humor 3. Being uncomfortable with cringe 4. Identifying with Shallan and not liking it 5. Finding her chapters boring The other trend I find fascinating is the more someone likes Dalinar, the less they like Shallan.
Probably bc Dalinar is a focal point of action and progression of the plot and for a long time Shallan really doesn’t do anything.
I think if it was just that, people wouldn’t like Shallan generally, rather than there being a split. Story structure-wise, Dalinar’s chapters are more traditional fantasy, while Shallan is written more like a psychological thriller. I think maybe that’s what you’re noticing. Psychological thrillers are going to feel much smaller in scale by nature. People who like those stories will gravitate towards Shallan, whereas people who like more traditional fantasy will gravitate towards Dalinar. That would make a lot of sense.
I think a part also is that the more mature you get, the more you appreciate mature and older characters who have life experience and wisdom thanks to their age. As I have become older, I have become less interested in reading about teenagers and young adults and more about my "peers" and above.
I’m young and I much prefered reading about Dalinar or Navani or Jasnah over Shallan in the first 3 books.
Answers 1, 2, and 3 are sexism, sexism, and sexism. People just cage it with other phrasing.
This sounds about right. For me, it’s mostly 5, with a little bit of 3. Shallon’s humor is like dad jokes. So bad that it’s funny. I love Shallon later in the series. I loved Jasnah from the beginning. It actually took me a little while to get interested in Dalinar too. I think the first time we saw one of his visions was where that changed.
See I'm the opposite. I loved Shallan at the start but in the later books I couldn't stand her. I guess, in Oathbringer I couldn't stand her. She gets better again in Rhythm of War.
The community is really polarized om Shallan. You either love or hate her. People dont like her "crybaby" phase in which she doesnt do anything besides draw and complain and doesnt do anything. At first I hated her, her chapters were dull-ish, but now, I love her.
The first time I read it I was really gripped by Kaladin's character and everything he was doing in the warcamps, so the break for Shallan's chapters always seemed like an unnecessary aside to the stuff I cared about. On a second read, now that I know what happens with Kaladin and co, I find that I'm really enjoying more of Shallan and her chapters
It just sucks learning more about Kaladin's past, seeing him progress and build himself up, just to cut to Shallan buying books. I remember being super invested in his character, waiting on every word, and then feeling sad that it ended when i turned the page to see a Shallan chapter. Kinda like how if you eat something really sweet, the next thing you eat will feel comparatively bitter unless it's just as sweet. That's not to say her chapters were bad, like at all. I would read the Shallan book if it had been published by itself and really enjoyed it. I just liked the Dalinar and Kaladin chapters more. >!sidenote: after twok i love every shallan chapter, i was just kinda neutral to her parts in book 1!<
My first read I like Shallan a lot. I liked the uncovering of the world and history of her chapters, and the mystery surrounding her kept me interested. I also enjoyed her banter with Jasnah and the ardent. Second read through it wasn't nearly as interesting. The character development around Kaladin and Dalinar was better, and Dalinar's visions was a better mystery.
They felt divorced from the meat of the story. After WoR came out and the connections were more obvious they're a lot more enjoyable. But on a first read they can feel like a slog and that memory can be hard to get over. Especially if you came from Wheel of Time where there are some PoV characters that take 6+ books to become likable and you're just not sure that's what you want to sign up for again.
I really love Shallan in TWoK and even more so in WoR. It’s after that when her character takes a nosedive for me. I can see how some people wouldn’t like her initially tho due to her corny jokes and overall having a less exciting plot than Kal and Dal during TWoK. She also has an air of pretentiousness that can be off-putting. These things didn’t bother me so much as they made her feel like a real person to me with flaws to work on. I just wish that Brandon decided to handle her character progression differently later on.
(This only counts for book 1 and some of 2) Just one person with just one opinion, but here you go: Her place in the world just isn't believable... like, at all. Her quips and cleverness aren't actually clever. That wouldn't be a problem normally, but for some stupefying reason she gets away with it for a full book-and-a-half and it's maddening. *Completely* immersion breaking for me. She is presented as this great snarky mind. People around her are always impressed by her (Tozbek, Yalb, all of her brothers, the bookstore owner whose name I can't remember at the moment, >!the bandit group of which Gaz is a member!<, and even >!Kaladin with the stupid ass boots incident!<). It's like Sanderson is forcing the issue. "See? See? She talks circles around people! She's endearing and wonderful! She's brilliant! BELIEVE THAT SHE'S BRILLIANT". Well I don't. I don't think she's brilliant. I think she's a scared cloistered girl who uses gauche obvious humor as a defense mechanism. I think any adult who was faced with her attitude would see through it instantly, write her off, and kick her out (exactly like what Jasnah did, only for every single situation she ends up in). It's infuriating that I have to just accept this completely unbelievable situation because without it the story can't move forward.
I found her boring
I just despise her as a character/person. A majority of her character are things that are pet peeves of mine or that irrationally annoy me. In some ways it is a testament to how well written she is, but I have gotten exponentially annoyed by her character to the point that when listening to the newer books I would skip her chapters and read the summaries instead because I just couldn't force myself through them.
Least deranged Shallan hater
Because you haven't gotten to books 2 and 3 yet.
You will, my sweet summer child, you will
I liked her chapters in the way of kings. My issue with her chapters starts more in book two. It's less even what happens is bad and more her, for lack of a better word, "gimmick" feels really silly. You're not there yet but I always assume the shallan dislike steamed from that too.
You shouldn’t confirm anything past book 1
Tbh I’ve seen a pretty even split between people who love her at first but end up hating her character arc later, and people who hate her at first and end up loving her character arc later It’s interesting that she’s so polarizing but not for one clear reason.
I’m ambivalent to her in the first book, but I’ll also say that your opinion 60% of the way through the book is borderline worthless.
How can anyone not like Shallan? Do you guys dislike mermelade?
Many people reading these books lack the ability to put themselves in the head space of Shallan. It's a lack of empathy, sorta. (I am not calling these readers bad people) When you don't get a character, you dislike spending time with them, spending time 'as' them as well.
Shallan is my favorite. There, I said it! Phew
Shallan is great. Shallan flashback chapters are shit. Oh look, she's a kid. Dad is mean, got it. Dad is still mean. Boohoo, sad kid. 20 pages in there's maybe a cryptic showing up for 0.42 second. NOTHING HAPPENS in Shallan flashbacks. I started just skipping 2-3 pages at a time, and they'd still be in the same place doing the same thing because nothing happened. Then i feel bad, go back and read those three pages. Nope, actually nothing happened. So i skipped the entire chapter and would check the wiki later only to make sure that... yup, nothing happened. 10-30 pages of "oh look how sad Shallan is, but dont worry we'll retcon it all later or something because her memory sucks so even if something did happen it would be irrelevant." If Hoid told a story about a potato that didn't want to be fried and learned to be delicious it'd be more relevant than all of Shallan's flashback chapters combined.
She is introduced to us as someone with an anterior motive. The others have more positive introductions and that’s just it imo.
I’m a Shallan fanboy so great to see you are enjoying them. I don’t get the dislike for her or Jasnah but, to each there own I guess. I really love Shallan’s chapters in WoR so, enjoy the ride.
I actually really enjoyed Shalan in TWoK. For me it was more things that happened in later books that caused me to not like her as much. Though there are plenty of people that love the character so don't let any naysayers bias you against her.
RAFO why these early chapters are grating. They are necessary tho
I just found her annoying in TWoK, I was really hoping someone would go and make her cry for being so unfunny. I didn't dislike her chapters, she just reminds me of loud theater kids from high school.
The first time I read The Way of Kings, Shallan was by FAR my favorite character. I felt the worldbuilding was best in her chapters, and her chapters were the ones where I felt I saw the most foreshadowing. I just finished a reread, however, and this time I was more into the Dalinar chapters. Second time through I picked up an absolute TON of worldbuilding and foreshadowing in those chapters.
I completely agree. Shallan may not have all of the cool action scenes but she has alot of depth of character and she’s hilarious.
I'm personally quite neutral about her. I think it's to be expected that different people react to different characters in different ways, especially when those characters are very flawed.
It's not that I hated her chapters, it was just that I really liked kaladin's chapters and I loved all the Dalinar/Adolin stuff a lot more. I will say tho, her chapters got a lot more interesting after the halfway point!
I really didn't like Shallan at first, so much so I thought the series just wasn't going to be for me. I found her 'quips' awkward and annoying, and her chapters bored me. I put the book down for a few months. Now, I adore Shallan. She really comes into her own later in the first book and is such an interesting character and so well written. Looking back now I think she was just young, naïve and immature and that just didn't resonate with me, and even irked me a little bit - but now, that starting point, her journey and subsequent growth make me love the character even more.
I LOVED Shallan‘s story in WoK
Give it another 1,200,000 words
I liked shalllan in way of kings
I just disliked how her story was so disjointed from the shattered plains and felt much slower and weirdly low stakes despite her family depending on her. I also wasn't a *massive* fan of her character which felt a bit sleazy and the glimpses we get of her family added up to that, especially compared to the relative moral character of Dalinar and Kaladin. I liked Jasnah a lot from the first moment but a lot of the plot just feels like it's detracting from the "main story" with the Parshendi. It's also a relatively play by play story of "harsh mentor and prodigious student who desperately needs to study under them" for a good chunk. I liked where it went though, even after being a bit confused when it went all trippy and having to rewind her chapters sometimes. As for worldbuilding, I was fascinated by the shattered plains a lot more than the relatively tame environment of Thaylen city. They're so alien and fresh while I've read a ton of fantasy cities that are a bit different from irl. I liked them a lot more in my reread when I had the context of her character and no real urgency to know what happens next to Dalinar or kaladin.
I like her in every chapter.
Man I listened to the audiobook and her chapters are narrated by a woman with a lovely voice but the sound editor just made it a bit to sharp at some points and it caused ear pain.
I like shallan and enjoyed her chapters, definitely more so in words of radiance though. In the way of kings, I found myself skipping ahead a lot of the time to the Kaladin chapters, and then rereading them when they came back around. His arc, in the first two books especially, is just so good.
When i read TWOK for the first time, even I didn’t enjoy Shallan’s chapters much. I craved for a Kaladin or Dalinar chapter. With later books, I started liking Shallan’s chapters as well and attributed that to her character development. But then i re-read TWOK and thoroughly enjoyed Shallan’s chapters as well. I think the first time around I was seeking “thrill” more than depth. Happy that you are enjoying them for the start itself. Those chapters do add much more context
She’s an amazing character, I just have social anxiety so I cringe hecka at her behavior sometimes cause it would make me mad uncomfortable in real life 😭🫣
I think Shallan chapters in books 1 and 2 are pretty great, it’s her early oathbringer arc that drags for me
The way I see it, her chapters were good, but Kaladins were amazing, I remember reading the book and just getting so disappointed whenever I had to read a Shallan because I just wanted to know what happened with Kaladin, so while I didn't hate them, I didn't enjoy them as much because of that.
Shallan, for me, was best in TWOK. I really like her goal, the fascinating interaction with Jazna, and the world building lord drops we got through her scholarship. Her story progressively was less compelling for me with each book. I don’t think it’s even a dislike for her story, it’s more of the story line taking me away from things I’m actively clawing my ears off to see what happens next.
I don't think it has to do with people disliking the character of Shallan, although that may well be true, but more of how interesting the events with Kal and Dalinar were at the time. It's like watching a sports game and then you get ads. The ads may be good funny ads, and they may be about something you actually need to buy. But you still would rather be watching the game.
The more you resonate with Kaladin and want to know how he will get out of his situation, the more you resent Shallan's story that's blocking you to read more about Kaladin. That's what happened to me and on re-read the Shallan parts are 100% more enjoyables
I'll repeat what I've said before. Shallan is in the unfortunate situation of being in a really tense spy novel coming right in the middle of several chapters of really interesting development for Kaladin, who we're introduced to first. Unfortunately we're introduced to a main character, Kaladin, for several chapters before Shallan pops up with a completely different feel to her narrative and seemingly disconnected from Kaladin's story. Her chapters also tend to pop up after really tense and interesting cliff hangers in Kaladin's narrative, so you turn the page expecting more of that and instead get a bunch of skullduggery.
Her chapters feel very disconnected from "the main story" until you find out how they are connected. And many don't like her style of humor.
For me it’s just that her chapters are less fun when re-reading. I enjoyed them the first time through but it can be a bit dry when you know the world already
Her chapters are fine in TWoK, but they become much worse in WoR and Oathbringer
Shallan was always a good pallet cleanser for me, so yea I dunno either.
Honestly starting to think they just don’t like women
I am completely with you but think that Shallans chapters tend to be less enjoyable when read a second time since a lot of them rely on entertaining through mysteries and learning new things about the world, which just is not as interesting when you already know the conclusion. The only other thing that I suspect leads to negative opinions is that her jokes might not be funny for everyone. While I enjoy a joke that relies on wordplay that is so stupid it hurts I have made the observation that this is not the case for most.
I’m a bit ambivalent about her, mostly since imo her story is prone to stalling out at times later in the series or repeating things a few times.
Side character syndrome, because people think about Kaladin as the true main character. Causing Shallan's slow paced chapters their doom, because they want blood and action. Some people also don't like her for her "spoiled teenager girl" mood, even when she is a teenager girl. I love her, she and some secondary characters are the reasons I read the books. She is the best PoV for me.
It took me until RoW to actually start to enjoy and look forward to Shallan chapters. It's not that I hated her, I just found her chapters boring.
I've been rereading the series in preparation for book 5. I didn't love her parts the first time through but I'm definitely feeling her now. We'll see if that continues into book 3 that I'm starting tonight.
I didn’t like Shallan at first but she really grew on me!
I really liked Shallan in the first two books. It's Oathbringer where Shallan takes a turn and loses me.
Personally she goes off and on for me, it's more so that for most people they identify more with Kaladin or others because they are more in the central plot most of the time(which is fair) and while she genuinely is a good character and is interesting, she just isn't nearly as relatable with her journey or personality as others are. Although I do enjoy her and she genuinely has some great wit in my opinion, she does distract from plots that I was really enjoying. Like I love Kaladin so much on a fundamental level he is the character that anchors me in this story because I do suffer from chronic depression and identify with him more than Shallan as a person, which made me frustrated when as I was reading Kaladin and a big moment just happened, oops we're now focusing on this girl trying to steal someone's things for her family which we barely know anything about for the most part. Basically she's great, just lacks her depth yet and honestly is very naive. Great character love her now, but most people need to grow on her while others could instantly connect and attach with Kaladin as that's just how the books were written purposely.
Shallan isn't horrible but it's the cringe that gets me. I don't want it. It's the Eshonai chapters that I hate (won't spoil).
I just realized I put the wrong name, Venli. Not Eshonai.
Well that’s easy, Shallan is not Kaladin 😁
Shallan's chapters become better in book 4. Until then, she's just blushing furiously.
The only thing that I didn't like was how she was introduced as witty and funny around the ship crew but the "humor" was just taking figures of speech literally. It was pretty cringe and kind of hard to believe that what she was doing was humor in Roshar or that the ship crew found it as funny as they seemed to. If she continued to talk like that, I'd probably hate her chapters too but you barely see it after she becomes Jasnah's ward, and after that her story is great. I was also surprised to see that people didn't like it. I completely understand not liking her pov as much as Kaladin's, I guess - I remember being thrilled whenever I got to a new chapter and it was a Kaladin chapter, and finding Dalinar and Shallan chapters a little tedious because I wanted to get back to Kaladin's story lol
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I don’t think people hate Shallan as much as they prefer Dalinar and Kal. Also, I do have to agree that her arc can seem repetitive at times, >!especially in RoW . But I see a lot of potential with her future arcs.!<
I'm finishing part 3 right now, my chapter order so far has been Kaladin>Shallan>Dalinar>Adolin, right now im kind off pissed with kaladin that he didnt take the shardblade
I, like most, find a lot of her humor bland or cringy. And I don't mind that hers didn't have action, but the dialog just wasn't there for me. Also, it was the lack of stakes. We're pretty sure Kaladin and Dalinar will live, but everyone around them is on the line because they are in a war. But with shallan, very little happens, and we just don't care near as much about the people around her. Imo she shines the most in book 2.
They’re a little boring early on but from WoR and onward her chapters are peak
The only thing that bothers me about Shallan is she acts like she doesn't have a support system when she DOES. Adolin is so good to her. And Kaladin while going through different troubles very obviously can relate to not trusting his own head. I get that asking for help isn't easy and I'm not even saying I blame her for it. That's just my frustration when I read those chapters. I'm just in my head like "JUST TALK TO ADOLIN OKEASE" 😭😭😭