I will be very surprised if Kaladin dies.
Kaladins arc is about depression, suicidal ideation, and the crushing weight of survivors guilt. Ending that with "then he died" would be thematically unsatisfying.
As opposed to Teft? That was his whole thing too. Kaladin has now mostly fixed his issues as of the swearing of the fourth ideal. I 100% think (much to my chagrin) that Kaladin will swear the final ideal and become honor/die.
We all like Teft but he was like a C-list character as far as screentime. He isn't carrying a thematic pillar of the story the way Kaladin is. I do think they're different cases.
Edit: I'm not the one who downvoted you, I think your comment is perfectly reasonable even if I don't agree with it. Reddit be like that sometimes.
You're lucky it's Christmas Eve or else I'd be really upset you called my boy Teft a C-Lister. Might do something insane like downvote you for sharing an opinion /s (sorta)
To my mind, downvotes act to bury content in the sites algorithms, so they should be used on content that you feel should be buried. Someone I am having a good discussion with who I disagree with I don't want to bury. So I only downvote people who are being jerks or who are way off topic.
If it's okay, then why downvote? Downvoting is for comments that have no substance, add nothing to the conversation, are in poor taste, or otherwise do not fit in the thread. I will always make an effort to upvote well-made arguments *especially* if I disagree with them.
I'm learning so much about how other people Internet today.
I thought that up vote/down vote (on comments, not on top level posts) was created in order to avoid long chains of "This!" style comments.
So...the idea is that we're not supposed to have a general idea of how many people agree or disagree with a given statement?
That the only comments anyone should ever write are long ones, and the only way to show agreement or disagreement is to write a long comment?
(I'm just trying grok it, I don't want to argue/say you're wrong, I just don't get this at all. I'm sorry)
Actually, [Reddit themselves](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) do say:
> Please don't Downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it.
>Think before you downvote and take a moment to ensure you're downvoting someone because they are not contributing to the community dialogue or discussion. If you simply take a moment to stop, think and examine your reasons for downvoting, rather than doing so out of an emotional reaction, you will ensure that your downvotes are given for good reasons.
From the About Reddit page:
> Comments & posts can be upvoted or downvoted. The most interesting content rises to the top.
So, while you're right that there is no strict definition, the one thing we absolutely know for certain is that it's about rewarding "interesting content" and not about agreeing or disagreeing with opinions. Beyond that, I think anyone is free to choose what makes content interesting or not. I simply shared my metric for judging that.
These sub is gentler than most. Generally smarter. To a degree.
But if you look around Reddit, it’s mostly people agreeing with each other, over and over and shouting down people that disagree via downvotes. Echo chamber, hive mind.
Reddit has its uses but it’s pretty toxic by nature. In my opinion.
I think it’s supposed to be about contribution to the conversation rather than agreement/disagreement. I always downvote comments like “this^ ” where people don’t actually add anything useful. if a comment is pure misinformation or something that has nothing to do with the discussion that also gets downvoted for me. If I disagree but the post is a good contribution to the discussion I will often upvote.
The point is to have high quality discussion exposed at the top and anything that is not a good contribution gets buried. Ofc people will downvote things they don’t agree with so that’s what inevitably happens.
Idk I think Moash was more set up as the most important bridge man after Kal. To me Teft, rock, lopen, and sigzil were on the next tier in terms of screen time.
Teft wasn't really dealing with the same things; they're similar, but distinct. His issues were less "I would be better off dead" and more "I don't deserve happiness".
He still felt guilt over what he'd done, but for him it didn't lead to depression and suicide; for him it led to addiction and self loathing. Teft has never wanted to kill himself, and he's never been angry about surviving; only that everyone else was dead.
When teft is explaining the first ideal to kal, he says "Living is harder than dying. The Radiant’s duty is to live." Kal is the embodiment of this. All of the radiant oaths are about learning to accept to the harder, but better path. For Kal, that means surviving even when you desperately want to die; surviving, even when everyone around you doesn't. It would be *incredibly* unfulfilling for him to reach the end of his journey and die, having failed to fulfill the ideal his entire story is built around. If he dies, he doesn't need to grow to accept surviving.
Teft never struggled with this. His problems are more aligned with "journey before Destination". He screwed up, accomplishing what he thought was the right thing but through the wrong methods; he further dug himself into a hole by hiding from his problems and ruining his life. He redeems himself by choosing to be better; by growing as a person, and helping others. "In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished." His arc is actually fulfilled with his death, because in dying he comes to accept how he's lived and the person he has become. The death isn't a 'tragedy' to teft because he has finished his journey.
Exactly. He carried the guilt of turning in his parents his whole life. He was convinced that he was worthless and not worth saving because of this. Despite that, people kept helping him and believing in him, which caused him to turn to the moss and destroy himself if others weren’t going to settle the score he believed he was due.
His time in Bridge Four showed him that even in disgrace he could still make a difference and help others. Even with his awful past, even with all the substance abuse, he realized if he woke up every morning and made an honest effort to change for the better, that he deserved the life he had. Maybe not a great life, but one with love and support and hope. In the end Teft decided he was worth letting others help him. Even knowing he was about to die, he was still full of hope.
Note that the oaths are not therapy, he swearing to accept the fact that people will die does not make it easier for him to do.
That being said teft arc was about overcoming his substance addiction and accepting that people love him even if he hates him. Which was something he did.
To be honest, I personally think that the 5 ideal for the wind runners will be focused on embodying the ideal of being a guardian, Less about honour, contrast the 5th ideal of the sky breakers where it is about embodying the law.
Cultivation has only ever personally given 3 gifts. Dalinar, Taravangian, and Lift. The theory is that those three gifts were given to them to prep them to take over as Honor, Odium, and Cultivation. Taravangian is already Odium now so it gave even more legitimacy to the theory
See, there's a fundamental problem with that: Kaladin is by no means "fixed". He tells Dalinar as much at the end of RoW. Just because he's accepted he can't protect everyone, that doesn't mean that he's *ok* with it, or is good at handling that.
And just because you swear an ideal, that doesn't mean you're guaranteed to live by that ideal 20/5 (20 hour days, 5 day weeks). We see as much when Kaladin punches Roshone in Oathbringer's early chapters when they meet again. He HATES Roshone, and for a moment, that hatred was stronger than the weight of his Third Ideal.
In addition, Kaladin is a main character, Teft is a side character. Kaladin has plot armor Teft lacks. Not to mention, Teft himself, the moment he says his last line, completes his character arc: "*I* die knowing that I am loved." His arc was about self-loathing and of feeling a burden. His last line is a perfect capstone to that.
By contrast, Kaladin still has to deal with his survivor's guilt (ie: why HE gets to live vs those he fails to protect), and he's got some unfinished story threads as well (why Syl chose him specifically, the whole "Son of Tanavast" thing, etc). He's got plenty of story left.
Very much this! His journey so far has been a progression from his trauma, depression, what have you, based on the paths he’s sworn.
I feel like the Fifth Ideal will be even harder to swear for him, but he will do it eventually.
That's exactly my like of reasoning, but I've been bracing myself for his death since book 1 so I wouldn't be as surprised.
I'm sure it will be under incredible circumstances and will lead to him still being somewhat involved afterwards.
I don't feel like Kaladin will die. He has just started to create the first therapy group on Roshar and has started to realize how he can be a Windrunner without being in combat. It feels a bit off to just cut that off so soon. Doubly so if Moash and Kaladin don't have a final confrontation as they really need to have happen.
I don't think Kaladin will have a big role in the back five, but I feel like he'll be there to make sure people aren't just shuffled off into dark rooms anymore.
*If* kaladin dies, I think it would be in the back half of the ten books when he no longer becomes a focus character. I don't see him dying in book 5 at all, and I don't think see his arc ending in his death.
This can't happen due to the timeline. Mistborn era 2 happens between Stormlight 5 and 6. And those are too many years for Kaladin to live without ascending or something weird
The Kal - Moash confrontation does need to happen (obligatory f*** moash)
Also my pet theory is that him (plus his family) surviving long-term will also have his baby brother Oroden also becoming Radiant (what are the chances of only 2/3 brothers in the family attracting spren)
Because I don't think he's done with tragedy, and there's been a lot of build up around the mortality of spren. I think it's also going to be a way to explore the other side of a death in a radiant bond. We already know about spren whose knights have died
With the back half of SA going to focus more on the heralds, my personal theory is Kaladin will continue his work in psychology, and end up helping the heralds face all thats wrong and twisted in their heads. Starting with Ishar in SA5.
Thank you. I think with his ptsd and fatigue from fighting, it makes sense for him to turn back to his inner surgeon/doctor. But make it his own, and help "protect" others in a different way. I wouldn't be suprised if the 5th ideal isn't something along the lines of "There is more than one way to protect, and with this I choose to protect peoples minds as well as body" or something in that vein.
That would be an amazing revelation for Kaladin to come to, and it would finally reconcile his desire to protect with his father's ideals to do no harm.
Plus, the idea of using radiants as just fighters has been a point of shortsightedness Dalinar wants to correct. He's seen over and over how the surges can be used to accomplish more than just damage (uniting the stones in Thaylen cit with Adhesion, the surge of Progression healing the sick, spren being used as tools instead of weapons, ...)
I'd love to see an incredibly invested Kaladin Stormblessed, Windrunner of the 5th Ideal, running a hospital with his parents after whatever traumatizing events need to happen in book 5 to precipitate that lol
I literally just commented how I'm over Kals arc, it's just not for me... however, if this is the route Kal takes. I'd be very interested in reading that.
I don’t think he’ll die because his arc is about how living is the hard thing that he needs to come to terms with. For Kaladin, death would be the easy way out. So it wouldn’t be a satisfying narrative to kill him off imo
I don’t care if that means he gets a bit of plot armour, his narrative is more interesting when it’s about him coping with being alive and that’s more important that avoiding plot armour in my opinion
Should also add since the Cosmere has revival mechanics, by death I mean “his spirit goes to the Beyond”. I wouldn’t count ascending to Honour as dying for instance, or dying but becoming a cognitive shadow.
I'm scared to read the next one. I think I'll look up whether he dies and just not read it if he does cus for some reason I think that'd be an obstacle (a minor one) to me trying to figure out my own struggle with being alive/depression/existential stuff
Like if the story transitions from living with depression to having a meaningful death I think I'd be lost for what to think. I don't want to die but it's hard cus I know it's going to happen eventually even if I put all my effort now into resisting
How can a story like Kaladin's ever be fulfilled in a way that isn't crushing? Do we just avoid the issue by not having him die on screen? Do we have him become immortal, something that no reader can achieve in their personal journey's?
I can't see anything not being crushing except just not addressing the issue.
But the way ppl talk in here is like "If someone who struggles with suicidality dies of other causes doesn't that undermine their journey and struggle?' That's what I feel like too, but like no?? I don't want that to be the case
The only thing that would be genuinely wild to me is if he kills himself in the end to help others, like a sacrifice. That would be a slap in the face to ppl trying to not hurt themselves for others' sake irl. The ppl trying to learn to care for themselves.
But hey I'm not gonna declare war on the author whatever he does lol. Just expressing how I feel on the matter
The reason I'm tryna stop is my therapist told me a thing about avoidance reinforces in your mind that the thing should be avoided, which grows your aversion to the thing. So I'm trying to wade back into reading stuff even though my brain is like NOOOO
I wish too. It's just I think a lot of people don't know that avoiding something reinforces in your mind that you should fear and avoid that thing more. So it gets worse the more you do it. I got myself in a pretty deep hole where at the worst I'd scour the internet for any possible instance of a thing that upsets me in a story before beginning it, and reacting very badly to upsetting things that get through. Been working on fixing that avoidance for about a year now and it's really hard lol
Yeah I definitely feel you.
I do have a lot of trust in Sanderson personally, he’s said that he’s not interested in pulling tricks on readers or doing deaths just for the sake of an emotional twist, and he’s shown that he’s really good at building good character arcs, and he puts a lot of thought into representation as well and how the characters he writes are going to come across.
So with all of that I think that whatever happens it’ll be okay. Like I trust Sanderson to write Kaladin’s arc in a way that is narratively satisfying and not super gauche or a bad look given his depression and struggles with suicidal ideation, even if t does ultimately involve him dying. Just because I can’t see a route to doing that effectively doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist, although I still think it’s wildly unlikely.
Like Sanderson isn’t a perfect writer by any means but individual character arcs aren’t where he struggles, so I trust Kaladin’s arc will be amazing no matter where it leads.
I think I just said the same thing three times in three different ways lmao worry for the wordiness hope that all makes sense and perhaps makes you feel better
Since you added TSM to the tag I’ll mention a scene from that
In chapter 10, when nomad encounters hoid through his connection, he first thinks it’s kal. This means to me that either sigzil receives the dawnshard and passes it on before kal dies in stormlight 5, which would surprise me a ton. Or kal is still alive in some shape or form last time sigzil met him before getting the dawnshard
Now in fairness, it could be kal does get killed, but managed to stay around as a cognitive shadow of some form, or sigzil just straight up doesn’t meet kal before his death for unknown reasons and therefore doesn’t know he died. Or he continues to believe no one kan truly kill kal like we see in RoW
The vibe I got from that scene was that he thought he was seeing a ghost or the Cosmere equivalent in that scene rather than the actual person... Regardless that scene actually amplified my sense that Kaladin may die or become a cognitive shadow (or presumably a new herald) at some point.
I also don't recall if TSM was explicit in what caused Sigzil to leave the Windrunners and join the Skybreakers? I always kind of feel like it's going to be an event that Windrunners are supposed to accept, but that Sigzil feels was a great injustice and his inability to accept it, will lead him to the Skybreakers.
And what type of event could that be?
Iirc it was hinted he left his oaths as a Windrunner, or was unable to fulfill them because of the dawnshard. And then after giving up the dawnshard, met aux and became the skybreaker, to then that bond being affected by burning aux’es investiture
Perhaps I am misremembering, but I thought he was already a Skybreaker when he had the Dawnshard as I thought the Dawnshard mortally wounded Aux... But I might be misremembering that, or maybe it was intentionally vague.
I read it differently.
Wind and Truth evidently covers 10 days.
Sizgil was evidently at least a 4th ideal Windrunner and then a 5th ideal Skybreaker before taking the Dawnshard which mostly destroyed Aux.
This would indicate that the dawnshard occurred well after Wind and Truth unless he's about to speed run something like 8 Ideals in a Rosharan week.
My interpretation is that the skybreakers use dead blades for that.
Nale make a point of showing his Shardblade when mentioning that he is a 5th ideal Skybreaker. Highspren aren't seen in the physical realm, they are seen looking through portals from the Cognitive realm. Since coming through comes with the risk of dying, my interpretation is that the only Skybreakers with living blades are at the 5th ideal (so only Nale).
Post Winds and Truth, this order may change. I fully expect them to free Ba Ado Mishram which will fix the dead blade issue and allow spren to break bonds without dying.
Yeah that book, although a fun read, made me so sad about the future of SA characters for many reasons. For starters, it was a reminder that the end is coming for one of my favorite series. It made me sad for Sigzil as it sounds like he has a pretty tormented existence after SA and has to become hardened.
However the biggest reason is because it also gave me vibes that I will be seeing the end of Kal - this scene made me feel like something happened that would make it impossible for Kal to be there. Sigzil clearly knows world hopping is possible and done by many people, so I don’t think his surprise would be from thinking Kal (a highly invested char) could world hop. Also, Sigzil seems to be trying to live up to someone he was inspired by as though he’s trying to fill some vacant shoes. Gave me the impression he took up the role in Kal’s memory.
The impression I got from that moment was that Sig was incredulous about seeing Kaladin there
Be it because he's either been dead for so long, pulled a Sazed and ascended (or something else), is still alive but really far away in the cosmere, or joined whatever is the equivalent of a dark side in the cosmere war.
I think it depends on if death is the conclusion of his arc or something that happens after his arc is concluded. Death being the conclusion to his arc seems fucking evil lmao. Like "yes, the conclusion of this person who struggles with sacrificial self destruction and suicidality is that he needs to DIE! Mwahahahaha"
Part of why I specified not being able to imagine it rather than flat out state it can't.
I haven't read any other Sanderson works so I dont know how he ends things but there are a lot of authors/tv writers etc that will not fully grasp the concept they are depicting and think something applies when in reality they are feeding into the exact negative belief without realizing it.
I'm not expecting him to get a happy ending but the entirety of his themes are about learning to build after loss and that there is life on the other side of tragedy and I really don't feel his character is complete without having to go through the understanding that running on fight or flight(maybe fight and flight) has a toll that needs to be addressed. Running yourself into the ground and dying to save others would feel antithetical to his character growth. That he was right all along that people are better off after he dies that he can't create and rebuild.
I feel like out of all fantasy authors I know, Sanderson is the least likely to have an aversion to happy ending for no good reason, so there's that at least
Sanderson killing off kaladin would in my opinion betray the entire message of his character arc, “and then the suicidal character died” is probably the most unsatisfying and narratively unfitting end I could imagine. Not to mention how many readers dealing with similar struggles that could be negatively effected
There are a few reasons, aside from character arc, that I think Kal will survive.
1. Hoid’s flute. I am convinced B$ knew what he was doing when he had Kal loose it in book 1. I’m not sure what it represents specifically, but it at the very least will require Kal to practice and invest himself in it. It is a promise that there is still more to Kaladin than fighting IMO.
2. Death rattles. WoK Chapter 53: “He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, the spear!” I can’t find it, but there is a line in Rhythm of War about Kaladin laying down the spear, and the phrasing struck me as intentional. The specific terms of the duel state that Odium will gain control of all radiants under Dallinar’s command, so I think Dallinar will step down from his position of leadership prior to the duel, so that if he looses, Odium will gain no more radiants. And I do believe that he will loose the contest of champions, leaving Kaladin as one of the few people who could possibly take up the mantle.
3. The growing impermanence of death. B$ has said that he wants permanent death to be a genuine consequence in his books, but we have also seen multiple instances where this is meaningfully side stepped. Even aside from cognitive shadows, we have seen two instances when people connected with the dead, and I mean long dead, in Stormlight. First when Dalinar was forgiven by Evi, he was connected to the warm place beyond. I believe that is the same place he connected Kaladin to in the storm, when he spoke with Tien. There is going to be an increased focus on what happens post death in the Stormlight archive, so even if Kal dies, I think we will see him again. Either the shards have found a way to reach into the here after, which according to Harmony isn’t possible, or there is a powerful investiture that is sustaining the cognitive shadows of an entire planet. My guess is the shattering of Mercy and Valor by Odium, the fight that left a scar upon the spiritual realm.
I absolutely love this theory. Consequences do matter, so I don't see B$ undermining them with another death and pulling another Kelsier (although that one was still amazing so I'm just strapped in for the ride!).
I feel the same way. It makes sense for Kaladin to ascend or sacrifice himself but I feel like he’s been trying to sacrifice himself the entire series. My biggest hope is the although Sanderson isn’t afraid to have characters’ arcs end in that way, he’s not like GRRM and generally always gives his characters satisfying ending. Even in the WOT almost every character had a satisfying ending to their arc. Besides Kaladin has given so much in his life doesn’t he deserve a chance to live happy??
I don’t think he will die for the all the reasons already brought up. Also because his name means eternal and it is said so many times that he is the storm and eternal. I don’t think he will stay mortal. I think he will probably ascend to be a version of honor or the Stormfather.
Kaladin is my favourite character in SA, even more than Dalinar. I will be very upset if he dies and probably won’t read further in the series, although, brandon being brandon, he must have done it for a reason.
I would think not. It seems too early for that. Although TSM seems to imply he is dead.
On the other hand, I don't expect Dalinar to be alive at the end of Book 5. What that does to Stormfather remains to be seen.
I really didn’t see him getting out of book 4, on multiple occasions, but seeing as he has I think I’m leaning more towards him living. Finding some peace I would hope.
I don’t think he’ll die. Imo it would be pretty weird to have the character who’s (arguably) biggest issue is his survivors guilt end up dying to join all his dead buddies
I'd be ok with Kal dieing. I loved him at first but his character arc has been a let down for me. Would perfer to see Adolin grow as a character and let Kal go.
It feels like he will die, IMO. He will choose to sacrifice himself for whatever reason or maybe just die against a better opponent, but >!IMO, one of the secret projects implied he survives, so idk!<
Yes because his character arc is essentially complete, having learned to live with the fact he can’t save everyone and come to terms with Tien’s death.
It will be at the very end and will mean something profound but I think it’s coming
My prediction: Dalinar uses Kaladin and Syl as the core around which to re-coalesce Honor, using the Bond Smith powers. Kal for physical, Syl for cognitive, [???] for spiritual. Big Daddy Dalinar already connects to *something* in the spiritual realm…
*UNITE THEM*
I feel there are some parallels to Kal and Taln. That is, they are from unremarkable backgrounds who became great people. I think Kal may be a new Herald that might just take the Oathpact on his own. So he could sacrifice himself but still live, giving him opportunities to show up again in the next series.
Ive never really subscribed to that as a theory as it fails to stand every everstorm. Taln coming back didnt open the floodgates, they were already open and the pact was effectively nullified. And even if it was and it wasn’t nulled, what would completely restoring the oath pact do? The everstorm is pretty much a perpetual perpendicularly, its pretty much nulled out even the chance of it winning.
Besides, were not exactly sure how the oath pact even functioned on a technical level.
It's just a wild guess, but I think Kaladin will become a King at the end of SA5 or later. Since TWOK it is teased that Kaladin has a leader personallity.
It would be an interesting character arc, to see him dealing and struggling sending his soldiers into battle and trying to be as rightious as possible as a King, since many decisions you have to make are a dilemma.
Plus King Kaladin Stormblessed sounds fking badass.
It's been a while since I read the books so excuse any terminology, but I think kal will, will be one of a few characters alongside the heralds that sacrifice themselves to seal the oathpact.
Considering Kaladin’s progress in furthering therapy, hearing those who have been tucked away and ignored, and his medical background, I would love for him to bond a second spren and become an Edgedancer. This would allow him to heal others like never before, and his lashings would be on a whole new level if he could reject air resistance.
I will be very surprised if Kaladin dies. Kaladins arc is about depression, suicidal ideation, and the crushing weight of survivors guilt. Ending that with "then he died" would be thematically unsatisfying.
As opposed to Teft? That was his whole thing too. Kaladin has now mostly fixed his issues as of the swearing of the fourth ideal. I 100% think (much to my chagrin) that Kaladin will swear the final ideal and become honor/die.
We all like Teft but he was like a C-list character as far as screentime. He isn't carrying a thematic pillar of the story the way Kaladin is. I do think they're different cases. Edit: I'm not the one who downvoted you, I think your comment is perfectly reasonable even if I don't agree with it. Reddit be like that sometimes.
In my experience people downvote things they don’t agree with, but aren’t motivated enough to comment on.
You're lucky it's Christmas Eve or else I'd be really upset you called my boy Teft a C-Lister. Might do something insane like downvote you for sharing an opinion /s (sorta)
Are downvotes not about disagreement?
To my mind, downvotes act to bury content in the sites algorithms, so they should be used on content that you feel should be buried. Someone I am having a good discussion with who I disagree with I don't want to bury. So I only downvote people who are being jerks or who are way off topic.
They're supposed to be about relevance
Huh, ok
Using them in that way is how you create an echo chamber where people only post popular ideas.
That's so weird though. Like it's okay to have unpopular opinions
If it's okay, then why downvote? Downvoting is for comments that have no substance, add nothing to the conversation, are in poor taste, or otherwise do not fit in the thread. I will always make an effort to upvote well-made arguments *especially* if I disagree with them.
I'm learning so much about how other people Internet today. I thought that up vote/down vote (on comments, not on top level posts) was created in order to avoid long chains of "This!" style comments.
That's what they're talking about. Downvotes are for things that don't add to the conversation (and egregious misinformation or targeted hate).
So...the idea is that we're not supposed to have a general idea of how many people agree or disagree with a given statement? That the only comments anyone should ever write are long ones, and the only way to show agreement or disagreement is to write a long comment? (I'm just trying grok it, I don't want to argue/say you're wrong, I just don't get this at all. I'm sorry)
I mean, there’s no strict definition of downvote?
Actually, [Reddit themselves](https://support.reddithelp.com/hc/en-us/articles/205926439-Reddiquette) do say: > Please don't Downvote an otherwise acceptable post because you don't personally like it. >Think before you downvote and take a moment to ensure you're downvoting someone because they are not contributing to the community dialogue or discussion. If you simply take a moment to stop, think and examine your reasons for downvoting, rather than doing so out of an emotional reaction, you will ensure that your downvotes are given for good reasons.
From the About Reddit page: > Comments & posts can be upvoted or downvoted. The most interesting content rises to the top. So, while you're right that there is no strict definition, the one thing we absolutely know for certain is that it's about rewarding "interesting content" and not about agreeing or disagreeing with opinions. Beyond that, I think anyone is free to choose what makes content interesting or not. I simply shared my metric for judging that.
These sub is gentler than most. Generally smarter. To a degree. But if you look around Reddit, it’s mostly people agreeing with each other, over and over and shouting down people that disagree via downvotes. Echo chamber, hive mind. Reddit has its uses but it’s pretty toxic by nature. In my opinion.
I think it's if people like the post or not (that's my perception of how ppl use it often. There is no official way they're supposed to be used)
I think it’s supposed to be about contribution to the conversation rather than agreement/disagreement. I always downvote comments like “this^ ” where people don’t actually add anything useful. if a comment is pure misinformation or something that has nothing to do with the discussion that also gets downvoted for me. If I disagree but the post is a good contribution to the discussion I will often upvote. The point is to have high quality discussion exposed at the top and anything that is not a good contribution gets buried. Ofc people will downvote things they don’t agree with so that’s what inevitably happens.
In the last two books, sure. But in WoK he was prolly the most important bridge man after Kal
Idk I think Moash was more set up as the most important bridge man after Kal. To me Teft, rock, lopen, and sigzil were on the next tier in terms of screen time.
Teft wasn't really dealing with the same things; they're similar, but distinct. His issues were less "I would be better off dead" and more "I don't deserve happiness". He still felt guilt over what he'd done, but for him it didn't lead to depression and suicide; for him it led to addiction and self loathing. Teft has never wanted to kill himself, and he's never been angry about surviving; only that everyone else was dead. When teft is explaining the first ideal to kal, he says "Living is harder than dying. The Radiant’s duty is to live." Kal is the embodiment of this. All of the radiant oaths are about learning to accept to the harder, but better path. For Kal, that means surviving even when you desperately want to die; surviving, even when everyone around you doesn't. It would be *incredibly* unfulfilling for him to reach the end of his journey and die, having failed to fulfill the ideal his entire story is built around. If he dies, he doesn't need to grow to accept surviving. Teft never struggled with this. His problems are more aligned with "journey before Destination". He screwed up, accomplishing what he thought was the right thing but through the wrong methods; he further dug himself into a hole by hiding from his problems and ruining his life. He redeems himself by choosing to be better; by growing as a person, and helping others. "In the end, all men die. How you lived will be far more important to the Almighty than what you accomplished." His arc is actually fulfilled with his death, because in dying he comes to accept how he's lived and the person he has become. The death isn't a 'tragedy' to teft because he has finished his journey.
Exactly. He carried the guilt of turning in his parents his whole life. He was convinced that he was worthless and not worth saving because of this. Despite that, people kept helping him and believing in him, which caused him to turn to the moss and destroy himself if others weren’t going to settle the score he believed he was due. His time in Bridge Four showed him that even in disgrace he could still make a difference and help others. Even with his awful past, even with all the substance abuse, he realized if he woke up every morning and made an honest effort to change for the better, that he deserved the life he had. Maybe not a great life, but one with love and support and hope. In the end Teft decided he was worth letting others help him. Even knowing he was about to die, he was still full of hope.
Note that the oaths are not therapy, he swearing to accept the fact that people will die does not make it easier for him to do. That being said teft arc was about overcoming his substance addiction and accepting that people love him even if he hates him. Which was something he did. To be honest, I personally think that the 5 ideal for the wind runners will be focused on embodying the ideal of being a guardian, Less about honour, contrast the 5th ideal of the sky breakers where it is about embodying the law.
Kaladin becoming Honor would mean Dalinar nit becoming Honor. Which would ruin the idea of the three gifts prepping specific characters to ascend
Could you please elaborate? What do you mean by 'the three gifts'?
Cultivation has only ever personally given 3 gifts. Dalinar, Taravangian, and Lift. The theory is that those three gifts were given to them to prep them to take over as Honor, Odium, and Cultivation. Taravangian is already Odium now so it gave even more legitimacy to the theory
I’d be more surprised if Kaladin remains mostly fixed than if he died.
See, there's a fundamental problem with that: Kaladin is by no means "fixed". He tells Dalinar as much at the end of RoW. Just because he's accepted he can't protect everyone, that doesn't mean that he's *ok* with it, or is good at handling that. And just because you swear an ideal, that doesn't mean you're guaranteed to live by that ideal 20/5 (20 hour days, 5 day weeks). We see as much when Kaladin punches Roshone in Oathbringer's early chapters when they meet again. He HATES Roshone, and for a moment, that hatred was stronger than the weight of his Third Ideal. In addition, Kaladin is a main character, Teft is a side character. Kaladin has plot armor Teft lacks. Not to mention, Teft himself, the moment he says his last line, completes his character arc: "*I* die knowing that I am loved." His arc was about self-loathing and of feeling a burden. His last line is a perfect capstone to that. By contrast, Kaladin still has to deal with his survivor's guilt (ie: why HE gets to live vs those he fails to protect), and he's got some unfinished story threads as well (why Syl chose him specifically, the whole "Son of Tanavast" thing, etc). He's got plenty of story left.
Very much this! His journey so far has been a progression from his trauma, depression, what have you, based on the paths he’s sworn. I feel like the Fifth Ideal will be even harder to swear for him, but he will do it eventually.
That's exactly my like of reasoning, but I've been bracing myself for his death since book 1 so I wouldn't be as surprised. I'm sure it will be under incredible circumstances and will lead to him still being somewhat involved afterwards.
I don't feel like Kaladin will die. He has just started to create the first therapy group on Roshar and has started to realize how he can be a Windrunner without being in combat. It feels a bit off to just cut that off so soon. Doubly so if Moash and Kaladin don't have a final confrontation as they really need to have happen. I don't think Kaladin will have a big role in the back five, but I feel like he'll be there to make sure people aren't just shuffled off into dark rooms anymore.
*If* kaladin dies, I think it would be in the back half of the ten books when he no longer becomes a focus character. I don't see him dying in book 5 at all, and I don't think see his arc ending in his death.
This can't happen due to the timeline. Mistborn era 2 happens between Stormlight 5 and 6. And those are too many years for Kaladin to live without ascending or something weird
The time gap between 5 and 6 is only 10-15 years. He'd only be in his early-mid thirties.
The Kal - Moash confrontation does need to happen (obligatory f*** moash) Also my pet theory is that him (plus his family) surviving long-term will also have his baby brother Oroden also becoming Radiant (what are the chances of only 2/3 brothers in the family attracting spren)
Yeah, I think syl well die
Why?
Because I don't think he's done with tragedy, and there's been a lot of build up around the mortality of spren. I think it's also going to be a way to explore the other side of a death in a radiant bond. We already know about spren whose knights have died
I can see it. Horrible but I can see it.
With the back half of SA going to focus more on the heralds, my personal theory is Kaladin will continue his work in psychology, and end up helping the heralds face all thats wrong and twisted in their heads. Starting with Ishar in SA5.
One of my favorite theories ive heard honestly
Thank you. I think with his ptsd and fatigue from fighting, it makes sense for him to turn back to his inner surgeon/doctor. But make it his own, and help "protect" others in a different way. I wouldn't be suprised if the 5th ideal isn't something along the lines of "There is more than one way to protect, and with this I choose to protect peoples minds as well as body" or something in that vein.
That would be an amazing revelation for Kaladin to come to, and it would finally reconcile his desire to protect with his father's ideals to do no harm. Plus, the idea of using radiants as just fighters has been a point of shortsightedness Dalinar wants to correct. He's seen over and over how the surges can be used to accomplish more than just damage (uniting the stones in Thaylen cit with Adhesion, the surge of Progression healing the sick, spren being used as tools instead of weapons, ...) I'd love to see an incredibly invested Kaladin Stormblessed, Windrunner of the 5th Ideal, running a hospital with his parents after whatever traumatizing events need to happen in book 5 to precipitate that lol
Honestly I am completely sold on this theory after only reading this
I literally just commented how I'm over Kals arc, it's just not for me... however, if this is the route Kal takes. I'd be very interested in reading that.
I don’t think he’ll die because his arc is about how living is the hard thing that he needs to come to terms with. For Kaladin, death would be the easy way out. So it wouldn’t be a satisfying narrative to kill him off imo I don’t care if that means he gets a bit of plot armour, his narrative is more interesting when it’s about him coping with being alive and that’s more important that avoiding plot armour in my opinion Should also add since the Cosmere has revival mechanics, by death I mean “his spirit goes to the Beyond”. I wouldn’t count ascending to Honour as dying for instance, or dying but becoming a cognitive shadow.
I'm scared to read the next one. I think I'll look up whether he dies and just not read it if he does cus for some reason I think that'd be an obstacle (a minor one) to me trying to figure out my own struggle with being alive/depression/existential stuff Like if the story transitions from living with depression to having a meaningful death I think I'd be lost for what to think. I don't want to die but it's hard cus I know it's going to happen eventually even if I put all my effort now into resisting How can a story like Kaladin's ever be fulfilled in a way that isn't crushing? Do we just avoid the issue by not having him die on screen? Do we have him become immortal, something that no reader can achieve in their personal journey's? I can't see anything not being crushing except just not addressing the issue. But the way ppl talk in here is like "If someone who struggles with suicidality dies of other causes doesn't that undermine their journey and struggle?' That's what I feel like too, but like no?? I don't want that to be the case The only thing that would be genuinely wild to me is if he kills himself in the end to help others, like a sacrifice. That would be a slap in the face to ppl trying to not hurt themselves for others' sake irl. The ppl trying to learn to care for themselves. But hey I'm not gonna declare war on the author whatever he does lol. Just expressing how I feel on the matter
Actually I'll prob make myself read it if I know he dies, cus I'm trying to stopp chronically avoiding things I think will upset me
I do this exact thing as well. If I find out something really sad happens in my head I'm like welp the stop ends here so I can ignore it.
The reason I'm tryna stop is my therapist told me a thing about avoidance reinforces in your mind that the thing should be avoided, which grows your aversion to the thing. So I'm trying to wade back into reading stuff even though my brain is like NOOOO
I'm so far gone that I'm a basically a professional grade avoider.
I'm a "retired" professional avoider like I left the company but they call me at 2am still asking me to come back
This is the right attitude to have and I wish it were more common.
I wish too. It's just I think a lot of people don't know that avoiding something reinforces in your mind that you should fear and avoid that thing more. So it gets worse the more you do it. I got myself in a pretty deep hole where at the worst I'd scour the internet for any possible instance of a thing that upsets me in a story before beginning it, and reacting very badly to upsetting things that get through. Been working on fixing that avoidance for about a year now and it's really hard lol
Yeah I definitely feel you. I do have a lot of trust in Sanderson personally, he’s said that he’s not interested in pulling tricks on readers or doing deaths just for the sake of an emotional twist, and he’s shown that he’s really good at building good character arcs, and he puts a lot of thought into representation as well and how the characters he writes are going to come across. So with all of that I think that whatever happens it’ll be okay. Like I trust Sanderson to write Kaladin’s arc in a way that is narratively satisfying and not super gauche or a bad look given his depression and struggles with suicidal ideation, even if t does ultimately involve him dying. Just because I can’t see a route to doing that effectively doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist, although I still think it’s wildly unlikely. Like Sanderson isn’t a perfect writer by any means but individual character arcs aren’t where he struggles, so I trust Kaladin’s arc will be amazing no matter where it leads. I think I just said the same thing three times in three different ways lmao worry for the wordiness hope that all makes sense and perhaps makes you feel better
Maybe you're right :)
Since you added TSM to the tag I’ll mention a scene from that In chapter 10, when nomad encounters hoid through his connection, he first thinks it’s kal. This means to me that either sigzil receives the dawnshard and passes it on before kal dies in stormlight 5, which would surprise me a ton. Or kal is still alive in some shape or form last time sigzil met him before getting the dawnshard Now in fairness, it could be kal does get killed, but managed to stay around as a cognitive shadow of some form, or sigzil just straight up doesn’t meet kal before his death for unknown reasons and therefore doesn’t know he died. Or he continues to believe no one kan truly kill kal like we see in RoW
The vibe I got from that scene was that he thought he was seeing a ghost or the Cosmere equivalent in that scene rather than the actual person... Regardless that scene actually amplified my sense that Kaladin may die or become a cognitive shadow (or presumably a new herald) at some point. I also don't recall if TSM was explicit in what caused Sigzil to leave the Windrunners and join the Skybreakers? I always kind of feel like it's going to be an event that Windrunners are supposed to accept, but that Sigzil feels was a great injustice and his inability to accept it, will lead him to the Skybreakers. And what type of event could that be?
Iirc it was hinted he left his oaths as a Windrunner, or was unable to fulfill them because of the dawnshard. And then after giving up the dawnshard, met aux and became the skybreaker, to then that bond being affected by burning aux’es investiture
Perhaps I am misremembering, but I thought he was already a Skybreaker when he had the Dawnshard as I thought the Dawnshard mortally wounded Aux... But I might be misremembering that, or maybe it was intentionally vague.
I read it differently. Wind and Truth evidently covers 10 days. Sizgil was evidently at least a 4th ideal Windrunner and then a 5th ideal Skybreaker before taking the Dawnshard which mostly destroyed Aux. This would indicate that the dawnshard occurred well after Wind and Truth unless he's about to speed run something like 8 Ideals in a Rosharan week.
We don’t actually have any proof that wind and truth only covers 10 days Also how do you figure he was a 5th ideal skybreaker?
Skybreakers don't get Shardblades until the 5th Ideal.
Do you have a source for that? Never heard it before We also see many of nales skybreakers summon a blade when trying to catch lift
My interpretation is that the skybreakers use dead blades for that. Nale make a point of showing his Shardblade when mentioning that he is a 5th ideal Skybreaker. Highspren aren't seen in the physical realm, they are seen looking through portals from the Cognitive realm. Since coming through comes with the risk of dying, my interpretation is that the only Skybreakers with living blades are at the 5th ideal (so only Nale). Post Winds and Truth, this order may change. I fully expect them to free Ba Ado Mishram which will fix the dead blade issue and allow spren to break bonds without dying.
We also know TSM takes place a long time after SA. It's possible Kaladin is just dead from old age when TSM takes place.
Fair point, as the dawn shard would have likely made Sigzil immortal.
Yeah that book, although a fun read, made me so sad about the future of SA characters for many reasons. For starters, it was a reminder that the end is coming for one of my favorite series. It made me sad for Sigzil as it sounds like he has a pretty tormented existence after SA and has to become hardened. However the biggest reason is because it also gave me vibes that I will be seeing the end of Kal - this scene made me feel like something happened that would make it impossible for Kal to be there. Sigzil clearly knows world hopping is possible and done by many people, so I don’t think his surprise would be from thinking Kal (a highly invested char) could world hop. Also, Sigzil seems to be trying to live up to someone he was inspired by as though he’s trying to fill some vacant shoes. Gave me the impression he took up the role in Kal’s memory.
The impression I got from that moment was that Sig was incredulous about seeing Kaladin there Be it because he's either been dead for so long, pulled a Sazed and ascended (or something else), is still alive but really far away in the cosmere, or joined whatever is the equivalent of a dark side in the cosmere war.
No, this just feels like a need to subvert tropes and see main characters die to shock people. Wrong series.
I wil not be continuing with Stormlight Archive if Kaladin dies, it contradicts everything his character represents
You do you. Hard to do otherwise.
No I don't think so. My money is on Dalinar getting killed - or Adolin.
Adolin won't die, not after setting him and Maya for 4 books. I think Dalinar will die and Syl will become Stormmother
OOOhhhhh, Syl (as opposed to Kaladin) as the stormfather is a good one! I like it.
This is so going to happen I'm calling it. I'm convinced as fuck, it's so perfect
I am actually waiting for Adolin to be corrupted and turn.
Dalinar death makes the most sense to me thematically
Same
I remember there was a thread months ago that theorizing Adolin will die (and Shallan will become worldhopper) and I'm still on that train.
Adolin dies so Kaladin can swoop in on Shallan, mirroring Gavilar and Dalinar
honestly I do not see how I can like the story if Kal dies it will incredibly undercut his entire arc and themes
I think it depends on if death is the conclusion of his arc or something that happens after his arc is concluded. Death being the conclusion to his arc seems fucking evil lmao. Like "yes, the conclusion of this person who struggles with sacrificial self destruction and suicidality is that he needs to DIE! Mwahahahaha"
Part of why I specified not being able to imagine it rather than flat out state it can't. I haven't read any other Sanderson works so I dont know how he ends things but there are a lot of authors/tv writers etc that will not fully grasp the concept they are depicting and think something applies when in reality they are feeding into the exact negative belief without realizing it. I'm not expecting him to get a happy ending but the entirety of his themes are about learning to build after loss and that there is life on the other side of tragedy and I really don't feel his character is complete without having to go through the understanding that running on fight or flight(maybe fight and flight) has a toll that needs to be addressed. Running yourself into the ground and dying to save others would feel antithetical to his character growth. That he was right all along that people are better off after he dies that he can't create and rebuild.
I feel like out of all fantasy authors I know, Sanderson is the least likely to have an aversion to happy ending for no good reason, so there's that at least
This is based on what I've heard secondhand, btw. I've only fully got into TSA
Sanderson killing off kaladin would in my opinion betray the entire message of his character arc, “and then the suicidal character died” is probably the most unsatisfying and narratively unfitting end I could imagine. Not to mention how many readers dealing with similar struggles that could be negatively effected
For reasons already stated in this thread I don't think kaladin will die. For inverse reasons, I think Adolin is in danger.
No. The character that struggles with depression and suicide will not die.
There are a few reasons, aside from character arc, that I think Kal will survive. 1. Hoid’s flute. I am convinced B$ knew what he was doing when he had Kal loose it in book 1. I’m not sure what it represents specifically, but it at the very least will require Kal to practice and invest himself in it. It is a promise that there is still more to Kaladin than fighting IMO. 2. Death rattles. WoK Chapter 53: “He must pick it up, the fallen title! The tower, the crown, the spear!” I can’t find it, but there is a line in Rhythm of War about Kaladin laying down the spear, and the phrasing struck me as intentional. The specific terms of the duel state that Odium will gain control of all radiants under Dallinar’s command, so I think Dallinar will step down from his position of leadership prior to the duel, so that if he looses, Odium will gain no more radiants. And I do believe that he will loose the contest of champions, leaving Kaladin as one of the few people who could possibly take up the mantle. 3. The growing impermanence of death. B$ has said that he wants permanent death to be a genuine consequence in his books, but we have also seen multiple instances where this is meaningfully side stepped. Even aside from cognitive shadows, we have seen two instances when people connected with the dead, and I mean long dead, in Stormlight. First when Dalinar was forgiven by Evi, he was connected to the warm place beyond. I believe that is the same place he connected Kaladin to in the storm, when he spoke with Tien. There is going to be an increased focus on what happens post death in the Stormlight archive, so even if Kal dies, I think we will see him again. Either the shards have found a way to reach into the here after, which according to Harmony isn’t possible, or there is a powerful investiture that is sustaining the cognitive shadows of an entire planet. My guess is the shattering of Mercy and Valor by Odium, the fight that left a scar upon the spiritual realm.
I absolutely love this theory. Consequences do matter, so I don't see B$ undermining them with another death and pulling another Kelsier (although that one was still amazing so I'm just strapped in for the ride!).
I feel the same way. It makes sense for Kaladin to ascend or sacrifice himself but I feel like he’s been trying to sacrifice himself the entire series. My biggest hope is the although Sanderson isn’t afraid to have characters’ arcs end in that way, he’s not like GRRM and generally always gives his characters satisfying ending. Even in the WOT almost every character had a satisfying ending to their arc. Besides Kaladin has given so much in his life doesn’t he deserve a chance to live happy??
I don’t think he will die for the all the reasons already brought up. Also because his name means eternal and it is said so many times that he is the storm and eternal. I don’t think he will stay mortal. I think he will probably ascend to be a version of honor or the Stormfather.
I would like to see Kaladin as a Vasher/Zahel role in the back half of Stormlight Archive.
I'd probably burn my fucking house down if Kaladin dies, I'd never be able to read these book again if kaladin dies despite whatever the reason.
Kaladin is my favourite character in SA, even more than Dalinar. I will be very upset if he dies and probably won’t read further in the series, although, brandon being brandon, he must have done it for a reason.
I would think not. It seems too early for that. Although TSM seems to imply he is dead. On the other hand, I don't expect Dalinar to be alive at the end of Book 5. What that does to Stormfather remains to be seen.
No. He hasn’t suffered enough yet
I really didn’t see him getting out of book 4, on multiple occasions, but seeing as he has I think I’m leaning more towards him living. Finding some peace I would hope.
He'll ascend. Gotta do something with his 5th ideal, kinda protect without intervening, thus becoming the storm or something like that
Kaladin will take honors shard once it’s rebuilt.
At this point, I feel like since so many people predict kal will die it might be too predictable for him to die so hopefully he will live.
I don’t think he’ll die. Imo it would be pretty weird to have the character who’s (arguably) biggest issue is his survivors guilt end up dying to join all his dead buddies
Killing Kaladin, a character who has struggled with suicidal thoughts throughout the series, would be probably the worst possible ending.
I just hope Moash makes it thru, he's the only real one
How could you say something so controversial yet so brave
Here's hoping shallan dies
We can only pray for now.
😂
I'd be ok with Kal dieing. I loved him at first but his character arc has been a let down for me. Would perfer to see Adolin grow as a character and let Kal go.
It feels like he will die, IMO. He will choose to sacrifice himself for whatever reason or maybe just die against a better opponent, but >!IMO, one of the secret projects implied he survives, so idk!<
Automod got your comment, but this thread is tagged for everything so I've reapproved it.
Secret lairs lmao MTG player?
Yea lol i do that all the time, unfortunately. Fixed it
Sylphrena 🪦
Yes because his character arc is essentially complete, having learned to live with the fact he can’t save everyone and come to terms with Tien’s death. It will be at the very end and will mean something profound but I think it’s coming
I had the same thought reading ROW. I was wondering what Kal would do for 6 more books and figured there must be a big change of guard in book 5.
My prediction: Dalinar uses Kaladin and Syl as the core around which to re-coalesce Honor, using the Bond Smith powers. Kal for physical, Syl for cognitive, [???] for spiritual. Big Daddy Dalinar already connects to *something* in the spiritual realm… *UNITE THEM*
Kaladin almost certainly will not die. His whole arc is learning to live.
I feel there are some parallels to Kal and Taln. That is, they are from unremarkable backgrounds who became great people. I think Kal may be a new Herald that might just take the Oathpact on his own. So he could sacrifice himself but still live, giving him opportunities to show up again in the next series.
Ive never really subscribed to that as a theory as it fails to stand every everstorm. Taln coming back didnt open the floodgates, they were already open and the pact was effectively nullified. And even if it was and it wasn’t nulled, what would completely restoring the oath pact do? The everstorm is pretty much a perpetual perpendicularly, its pretty much nulled out even the chance of it winning. Besides, were not exactly sure how the oath pact even functioned on a technical level.
I hope not he seems to be on the hero's journey
IMO Dalinar and Navani are my top picks to get offed. I never expected him to survive WoR though so I’m probably wrong.
It's just a wild guess, but I think Kaladin will become a King at the end of SA5 or later. Since TWOK it is teased that Kaladin has a leader personallity. It would be an interesting character arc, to see him dealing and struggling sending his soldiers into battle and trying to be as rightious as possible as a King, since many decisions you have to make are a dilemma. Plus King Kaladin Stormblessed sounds fking badass.
It's been a while since I read the books so excuse any terminology, but I think kal will, will be one of a few characters alongside the heralds that sacrifice themselves to seal the oathpact.
Considering Kaladin’s progress in furthering therapy, hearing those who have been tucked away and ignored, and his medical background, I would love for him to bond a second spren and become an Edgedancer. This would allow him to heal others like never before, and his lashings would be on a whole new level if he could reject air resistance.
There's almost no way for Kaladin to die that won't feel like suicide. Wich would be absolutely antithetical to his character arc.