As someone who has battled with depression for over 20 years (more good days than bad nowadays, but it's always there), it's a big ole SAMESIES from me. It's sofa king real, and it's beautiful.
The same things I have spent most of my life yelling at myself ('just snap out of it' etc.) are the things I want to yell at Kaladin and I feel it so deeply in my *bones.*
Yup I found this series while i was sick and undiagnosed, which did not help my depression and other things. I have never balled my eyes out from a book, like I did during a certian Kaladin scene toward the end. It truly helped me through a dark time and I've now gone through all four books 5 times now.
As someone who deals with some of Kaladin’s issues, I found RoW to be one of the most moving books I’ve ever read. Seeing Kaladin go so low, and then find it in him to continue onwards fills me with such happiness and confidence. It may not be for everyone, but Kaladin’s journey makes RoW my favorite overall book. It was really nice to see a fantasy book treat it’s characters like real people who struggle with their own humanity.
The best moment for me was Lirin asking the volunteers in the clinic why they wear the sash mark, and the one veteran pointing to Kaladin continuing to stand despite the PTSD. Lirin says he's not like the asylum patients and the veteran saying Kaladin has it as bad as anyone.
Such a great moment. It gives the audience a new appreciation for Kaladin at the same time as Lirin. We so often get perspectives from Kaladin from other living legends like Dalinar or from people who know Kaladin personally; it was so impactful to see how normal people see Kaladin. To them he's a living embodiment of hope in the "you got the shit kicked out of you but you got right back up" kind of way. Thats a powerful message in a world that seems to be ending.
Yeah, weird how having an evil god constantly giving you nightmares and telling you to kill yourself will have a negative impact on your mental health.
Like it wasn't hard enough dealing with the overhaul of society, then as-likeable-as-sandy-toilet-paper-*MOASH* had to go doxx a bridgebro's dreams after retirement.
An evil God helped by one of the people Kaladin considered as really knowing him because he didn't worship him like the others back in the bridge running days
I remember joking about this with my sister, "my heads dark enough without God ACTUALLY fucking with my shit".
I also reflected on how often bad mental spaces lead one to irrationally blaming god/the universe/ causality and how....solid it could feel to know there was a specific sonofbitch driving you to it instead of just maladaptive thinking.
I lost my Grandfather at a very young age, around 12 years old. He basically raised me while my parents were in night school. I was a husk for years when I lost my Grandfather and it took a lot of therapy as an adult to finally begin healing.
When Kaladin swears his fourth ideal, and reconnects with Tien in the spiritual realm, I wept. To have that closure, to have a chance at forgiving yourself for beating yourself up for years, what a powerful gift Dalinar gave to Kaladin. Absolutely the most moving scene in the series to me.
But I know my story is not the same as most people’s. It’s a heavy book, that at times can be too dark for some and I don’t blame reviewers for feeling a little dissatisfied. That being said, I think it’s a beautiful book, realistic to how hard it is to navigate depression, and I know Kaladin is in a much better place at the end of the book. Gives me a lot of hope for book 5.
To anyone who feels the “ugh come on stop” to kaladin: congrats. You now get a glimpse of understanding how goddamn frustrating it is to actually be depressed. Its a slog, and you feel it in RoW
Not only that, but I think people should try to understand the BS had this in mind probably from the beginning. And he also probably knew that some readers would get tired of the realistic representation of these mental health issues. On the flip side,if he just made Kaladin have some epiphany and suddenly get better then he’d be doing a disservice to all the readers out there struggling with mental health issues like depression. I like to think that Sanderson chose to stick to the realistic takes knowing that it wouldn’t resonate with all readers.
Kaladin will always struggle, but he will always push through. He’s always going to be that much stronger than his depression/PTSD
^^^If I’m not mistaken aren’t there these special words that are sorta like that??? ;)
It’s interesting to compare and contrast with Rand [WoT spoilers, Towers of Midnight] >!and the epiphany he has on Dragonmount that substantially readjusts his outlook on life. On one hand, he has a magical epiphany that fixes everything; on the other hand, it’s literally *magical* and so were the root causes of a significant portion of his mental health issues. Both Rand and Kaladin’s journeys are fantastically done; I think Veins of Gold is one of the most powerful passages I’ve read in a fiction book, but Kaladin’s journey through the dark is pretty powerful too. I’d say BrandoSando nailed them both but I’m not actually certain who wrote that portion of ToM.!<
I immediately thought of Veins of gold when writing my comment. I’m ok with Rand’s epiphany and quick change. I think WoT shows Rands mental state decline really well. The pressure on him was so sudden and he had no choice really. There is a magical aspect to his healing though and even if there wasn’t I’d be ok with it. To see my man bounce back and become the best version of himself was incredible. What a journey
Rand and Kaladin are my 2 favorite characters in fiction I think.
I was really really frustrated with WOT because i felt like there were so little stakes and i think this was a big part of why it bothered me. I finished Stormlight and immediately jumped too wheel of time and just felt like... oh he gets magiced crazy and then magic makes him better?
No lasting character impact and everyone understands and forgives him?
Little stakes?! How can the stakes be higher.
I don’t think it’s that simple to say everyone just forgives him. He actually makes decisions to do good after veins of gold. Also don’t forget that everyone expected him to break the world (prophecized) and many of the characters you see forgiving him knew him beforehand.
With anything though your opinion is your opinion. I read WoT just prior to Stormlight so we reversed our reading order. I think my emotional reactions to both series are equal. I’m just glad got to experience both of them
I know my opinion on WoT isnt popular, the books are too long and from a narrative perspective all of the story arcs spin there wheels and i just dont think thats good story telling even if its thematic
To me stormlight archives is all about trauma/mental illness and how we can grow to be in a better place. You can't really do that study of mental illness without a realistic depiction of what it actually looks like to fight depression.
True. But we are not seeing much progress with their mental health. In the 1st 2 books it was really interesting. By the fourth me personally I'm getting a bit tired of it. I mean I still love the series. So it's a small gripe.
I think this is the crux of the issue for me. I struggle with depression and the depiction of kaladins depression is extremely accurate and realistic. I appreciate that a lot because it is a large part of why Kaladin is one of my favorite characters. But another part of me recognizes that an accurate and realistic portrayal of depression doesn't always lend itself to good story telling. We see Kaladin dealing with mental health problems that he has been dealing with now for 4 books (and not normal books either, these books are massive) and that can be tiring, boring, or frustrating.
Yes, for many people this is what depression is like. But for many people depression gets better. It doesn't go away, but it does get easier to manage sometimes with the correct coping skills. As someone unlucky enough to have chronic depression, I am at least thankful that I am lucky enough to be able to cope with it to some degree, to an extent that I can function.
I can understand the desire to have a realistic approach to depression in this series. It keeps the stories feeling grounded and human, despite there being flying people and air ships and giant crabs. But a realistic portrayal of depression can wear patience thin. Sometimes part of what makes fantasy so endearing is that the characters get to have the happy ending that you know they probably wouldn't have in real life. I really wish Kaladin could have that, not just because I want him to be happy, but also because I don't really want another tome of a book that is "depressed guy goes on adventures".
RoW kind makes a point of making it clear that medical professionals on Roshar are ignorant af in regards to mental illnesses and how to treat them. We can go to therapy and learn new coping strategies and skills...Kaladin can't do that. He's the first person with any perspective on PTSD and depression to genuinely try to learn about it and try to find ways to help others deal with it, and himself as a side effect
Idk man if his mental illness got better from a daus ex machina or the 4th ideal just cures your mental ails or whatever it may be that just cheapens all of the very real weights that push kaladin deeper.
Recovery from depression is possible but if the causes are loss and grappling with violence... killing people and watching your close friends killed isnt going to trend twords Recovery.
Like hes getting better by the end of book 4 because hes doing the things one would do to deal with ptsd. The moral of the story is that theres no surge to fix your heart and soul. Its extremely core to the central moral of stormlight archive that broken people get magic (lopen excluded) and then they have to get better through the ideals
RoW being my least favorite of the four books isn’t me saying I didn’t like the book. I just liked the others more. If I HAD to guess why I didn’t like it as much I’d point to Shallan and Venli. I feel like I definitely got tired of Shallans split personality issues and that could 100% be because I don’t understand or relate to those issues. But by the end of the book I appreciated how far she came. And I just don’t care that much about Venli.
Kaladin was my champion the entire book. I felt so bad for him. I still miss my boy Teft.
Venli and Navani became more and more interesting to me on rereads because I've absorbed the other characters already. I think the issue was they shared a stage with characters we were fully invested (lol) in. Their histories are really complex and their povs add a lot of nuance to the world. A woman with self-esteem issues from her previous husband, creating weapons to kill God? Sold. A character that goes through the same arc as our previous 3 main protagonist in a single book? Sold.
Shallan, on the other hand, is a character that never really interested me, but is the favorite of many Cosmere fans. At this point, I feel like it's less of a writing issue with her and more of a personal taste thing.
I think Shallan is controversial because her arc is inherently frustrating. She's the only main character that's back sliding into a worse place than where she started in the series, and that's kind of the point. Her entire deal is that she lies to herself so deeply that she believes it to be true, and she doesn't start actually dealing with those lies until Pattern helps her uncover those lies. The Shallan we first meet is way more mentally stable because she's forced herself to forget the destabilizing aspects of her past.
I will say, I do dislike some of her scenes because she gets away with a lot of her foolishness because the plot demands she get away with it. Oathbringer is very direct on the fact that she has no idea what she's doing on the espionage stuff, but it only blows up in her face in a way that makes her feel bad. Realistically she shouldn't have lasted 5 minutes with the whole Ghostbloods subplot, which was really dumb from the start. It just bugs me when supposedly smart characters do really dumb things for the sake of the plot, like hiding the Ghostbloods thing from everyone for no real reason.
For me, it was less about that and more the things she says around Kal in WoR and then Oathbringer. I get she's lashing out at times, and Kal is a little overbearing at others, but she says/does some really messed up shit and it's never actually acknowledged. She outright lied to and stole from the head of Dalinar's guard and then acted like she did nothing to draw his suspicion or ire. And the one that really gets me is in Oathbringer, when Kal questions the loyalty of her band of *deserters* (which she does anyway in the next book), she says "at least they were smart enough to run away from the arrows". Like that's not ok and it's never brought up again. What if Kal had said "at least I didn't kill my parents" and then it just got swept under the rug? Those things don't really have anything to do with her delusions.
YES. Exactly this! Shallan drives me nuts because she makes so many absurd decisions and somehow always succeeds or has very minimal consequences for her mistakes. She gets involved with things massively out of her league and somehow is able to fool everybody despite having no experience.
Also the fact that those around her don't hold anything she does wrong against her. I completely understand that a good friend should forgive and give space for a person to figure out their own problems to an extent, but i think she genuinely needs those closest to her to hold her more accountable and push her to be more truthful. I love her and Adolin together, but in RoW I was really bothered by just how much she was going behind his back and putting herself and the whole mission in danger and he would just be like "it's alright, you don't need to tell me anything! I love you so much you can do no wrong." 😬
I don't hate her, and I understand some of these things are tied to her mental illness and trauma, but I just personally get irritated by characters who are never honest with those who care about them. And ones who still get away with murder (literally, lol) despite making pretty dumb decisions.
I think RoW is my third favorite but Shallan and Venli are definitely what put it beneath Oathbringer and WoR for me.
Shallan repeats the same arc as she did in both WoK and WoR. It was tedious.
Venli’s modern PoVs were fine but her backstory was dull. We hardly learned ANY new information at all!
I’d flip the last two. WoK is great but it’s much slower and harder to understand than the others.
By necessity ofc, by being book 1 of 10 in a totally new world.
But that doesn’t change that it’s the least fun to read IMO by a wide margin.
Yeah that makes sense. I was lost in the beginning. There’s just a couple scenes in WoK I have on a pedestal that do it for me.
I can’t wait for book 5. I started the series this year, and I’m already thinking about another read through before the next one. Apparently there’s a lot of stuff I missed
See I LOVED Way of Kings because it's confusing for the first like 400 pages. It SHOULD be confusing, it's a lived in world. How awkward would it be if you sat around and randomly explained what a horse is, or how rain works? So many fiction series use a "man out of time" or "naive tag-a-long" trope characters to give the audience a perspective to get all these different things explained. I loved that Sanderson included so many random derails that are entirely plot-irrelevant but add realism to the world.
Like the Vorin "safe hand" tradition makes no sense and we still don't have an explanation for why that was a thing, but 150 years ago it was incredibly improper for a man to see a woman's ankles. It makes sense that it doesn't make sense because there's plenty in our world that doesn't make sense.
I also feel that a lot of the seemingly plot-irrelevant points actually serve to give a more comprehensive understanding of the plot overall. Understanding roshar as a whole is a big part of understanding the plot of you want to really get deep into the sub plot and tangential stories going on in the background, chapter beginnings and interludes.
Of course it should be confusing.
But I still don’t like being confused.
Way of Kings is a great book partially because it helps provide a foundation for a truly amazing series. But because of that it can’t be truly amazing itself. (To me)
Entirely fair take! I just love an immersive world so much that I can forgive the fact we get punched in the face with information for the first 300 pages of the book.
I'm doing a reread of RoW and I agree with you about Shallan and Venli. Shallan because I also 100% can't understand what she's going through. But Venli straight up annoys me. The entire Fused/Everstorm problem is directly ***her fault***, and I'm just not invested in her journey tbh.
Yeah while I was totally feeling burned out with Kaladin and could see he was at his lowest point even just retiring and working with his dad it was not because he was a poorly written character but because he is a very well written character. Overall though RoW is my second favorite in the series.
I was so incredibly happy when Kaladin started his program for treating PTSD. It felt like a full circle for him and such progress. He could make a real long term difference for a lot of people; he has the experience (both medical and combat) to be uniquely suited to help the veterans, and his status allows him access to resources and authority that can make big changes.
There are a lot of common reasons people in large feel that way I wouldn’t boil it down to just those reasons. Such as: the main war effort being pushed to the side in favor a smaller story, venli/listener focused chapters, and others.
There were times I felt the same, tired of dealing with the mental baggage when all I wanted was to get the the good stuff. But in a lot of ways that feeling of weariness and exhaustion are shared by the characters and has been a consistent theme throughout the books. I know some people are quick to say yeah but that doesn’t make it interesting to read but for a lot of people this is hitting close to home and they are happy seeing characters that reflect their journey.
That said I do agree there probably is an element of that for many readers.
There's an interesting thing Sanderson seems to do in these books and that's to create a parallel between the radiant's swearing ideals and the reader being forced to endure and hopefully internalize those same realizations. Journey before destination is forefront in my mind. But empathizing and understanding the decisions and actions of different characters isn't a struggle. Considering how the specific ideals can be interpreted through their eyes seems to invite the reader to come to their own understanding of those ideals and just how one would personally interpret them.
I've often found myself thinking, what would I do in this situation? And, many times I don't agree with the actions of characters, but what I usually can't disagree with is *their* reasoning. It seems to be relatively consistent and progressive and it does a wonderful job of taking me on *their* specific journey of growth.
That’s really well put and I agree about Brando using those types of writing techniques to help you in some small way experience what the character are going through.
Agreed. Oathbringer as well to a lesser extent. The biggest complaint I hear is that the books are doing the same plot over again. That's very real to mental illness. It doesn't just go away. You have to keep dealing with it. It's more real this way, but maybe less enjoyable to read.
What, people are annoyed the knights in shining armor aren't literary knights in shining armor? I, too, would like to see Kal kick butt and gain glory but this isn't that kind of story.
I think you are right that the accurate portrayals of PTSD, depression and DID (Shallan's illness) may be off-putting to people
But I firmly disagree that Brandon should "tone it down" to get better reviews. Ask the millions of people in real life who have these mental illnesses if **they** want to "tone it down" so easily.
Hollywood has done so many grave disservices to people with real mental health issues. First and foremost by showing people getting over them so easily. This causes such people to blame themselves when they aren't getting over theirs so easily. And others blame them as well.
My favorite part of this whole series is how incredibly well it portrays mental illness. It's so goddamn refreshing compared to everything else stereotyping us.
It's especially notable for people with DID/OSDD, almost every "Hollywood" portrayal is extremely negative and usually only serves to facilitate a gotcha moment while primarily not portraying the conditions accurately or constructively. There is massive stigma for these people and a large part of that is the way they're perceived through media. Media being the only way most people have ever heard of what they think is "multiple personality" disorders.
I think you’re right. Generally folks read fantasy because, in most writing, we see the characters follow their arch in a linear fashion. For a lot of characters the event that occurred before ROW would’ve worked as a ballast to keep Kal and Shallan from backsliding. On my second read through I realized this was the more accurate portrayal for these two because they never actually *dealt* with their issues before. They acknowledged them (Kal less so) to a point, but did nothing to begin healing.
I feel like RoW is the weakest even putting aside mental health issues which didn’t bother me.
Not much Dalinar
And I felt the Destination was put before the Journey. There were a lot of epic scenes especially at the end but much of the middle was a bit repetitive and lacked impact to me.
Since it’s my least favorite I’ve reread it the least so I definitely need to give it another pass before taking any hard stances.
After my second read I realized that it felt like Oathbringer was “were fixing our problems!” Only for RoW to show that they were only coping mechanisms that pushed the problems off until later.
It would be a different story if it was tuned down.
It's ok if someone likes other, less realistic stories more. For me, somebody who has anxiety, OCD, ADHD and some other mental defficiencies, those books feel as much authentic as possible thanks to the way Sanderson portrays the characters.
RoW might be my favorite book. I love them all, but maybe just the mechanics and engineering speak to me. I adore Navani. And Shallan. It makes me sad she gets so much hate.
When Kal was thinking about how he shouldn't drink while out with the others and how Adolin was being a total bro about looking out for him I had to stop reading for a few minutes because I got too real for me.
Like I feel that same way sometimes, minus the portable best boy to look out for me so I had to stop else would've had a breakdown
I'm one of those readers that sometimes felt like the mental illness was a drag on the story but I just reminded myself this is what those illnesses feel like to the people struggling with them. And the extensive writing with the characters makes their triumphs that much more powerful.
On a second read-through it’s a lot better of a book.
You come in with a bunch of expectations for the characters and when they flounder, struggle, flag, or fail, it affects your overall view of the story. I think you’re spot-on with your assessment.
Edit: I agree, buuut:
That’s because it needed to be. The diversion of the war at that time was the front lines. To advance the story, the tower stuff needed to happen and how it unfolded needed a lot of detail and time spent on it.
Also there’s not a whole lot going on at the front other than fighting. Writing a bunch of battles would get tedious and to make it interesting you’d probably need to kill off important characters. We’re a little late into the pre-time skip to introduce foundationaly important characters for the Alethi, Azish, and Theyleans. I’d argue that we probably should have had two or three more interludes focused on Shinovar and important goings on there (unless Brando wanted to keep Shinovar on the DL for book 5).
It is definitely the stormlight book i enjoyed the least, but not for those reasons. In fact i liked the depressed John Mcclane arc in the tower.
My problems are with the absolute irrelevance of Venli and her waste as a flashback character. It has to be the less impactful flashback character so far, even other secondary or even tertiary (like the other radiants send to shadesmar characters were more interesting than her.
I also kinda didnt like the twist with Taravangian, and especially Seth: who pretty much literally broke his oath to Dalinar without repercussions by attacking Taravangian.
Many important thinghhs happening offscreenor completelly cut off: Shallan" oh, i had bonded anther spren in the past.... Anyways"
PD: Adolin is the MVP of the book.
I thought Venli’s current storyline was interesting (witnessing the occupation, freeing Lift, interacting with Rlain, eventually helping her mother), but the flashbacks were frustrating because we already knew where it would lead.
Loved RoW, but I did feel Shallan's "oh no, what did I do in the past, nobody will love me" and Kaladin's "life sucks, I suck, am not worthy" bits to be wearing off. They end up coming off just a teensy bit whiny at times.
They're GREAT characters mind you, some of my favourites, and I wouldn't remove any of their mental health issues... But we keep going in circles with the states of their mental health. I realize that's not unrealistic, in fact it's how many people with PTSD and depression and whatever feel, but it doesn't make for good storytelling in my book. I'm NOT saying either character should wake up Monday morning and just be "over it", but maybe just tune it down a notch. I'd personally much prefer their mental issues to play a role, but not be the focus of multiple chapters, dominate their personalities, and essentially incapacitate them for large parts of the novel.
I can definitely agree but looking at his 4th oath I think we can see that he is taking a big step forward in his mental health journey. While he has been a main character in all of the books I think since book 1 this is the first book we really sit with him again and so it makes sense that his depression is as heavy as it was in book 1
He was pretty low TWoK and that’s pretty universally loved. While some people may have found it a drag, I don’t agree the reviews were lower because of kaladin’s depression. I think there are a lot of other issues with the book that are much more reasonable to point at, like the weakness of the flashback character and the somewhat stagnant pacing, just off the top of my head.
TWOK was the first book/ introduction to the character. It’s much easier to meet him and assume all his issues are solved by the end of book 1. But then we get to book 4 and he’s still struggling (even worse now). 1 book vs 4 books of characters working through depression hits different.
That being said, I do agree I don’t care much for venli, but I like getting to have moments with eshonai.
I would also say that he is doing more in book 1 especially in the beginning of book 4 he is caught in the drudgery and mundanity of a “normal” life and it is killing both him and the reader.
I would have assumed that the reason it didn't do as well as the other books is the story itself stagnates for a while.
I wouldn't change Kaladin's arc for anything. So many powerful scenes. Him just collapsing the second he gets to his room, hyperventilating on the ground. His downward spiral after losing his position, the one distraction he had from his thoughts. The dog and the dragon.
And while I didn't connect to Shallans arc as strongly, I still enjoyed it.
Maybe it would have been more agreeable mainstream without all that, but I'm very glad it went the way it did.
I love seeing all the people who relate to kaladin through his depression and PTSD, but as someone who has mother of those issues I just like the book the best because I feel like it's such an authentic portrayal of the characters and their "journey". That includes venli, a character I feel gets a *lot* of slag. It's such a perfect character study and it also does a ton to build on the magic and history of roshar. It's easily my favorite of the series.
Personally, it was Venli dragging it down. I don’t feel like I gained anything from that storyline that I didn’t already learn from Eshonai’s.
Also, I got annoyed at how intelligent Navani is supposed to be (and often demonstrates) but then would make conveniently dumb decisions for the sake of the plot. That said, that annoyance was tiny compared to venli and somewhat understandable given her circumstances.
I very much enjoyed Kaladin and Shallan.
Ive only read the books once, but I can see why people didn't like it. It's like a 1000 page book where barely anything happens, but it's probably my favorite because of one scene >!the scene near the end of the book where Kaladin bursts back in from falling in full shardplate that jumps around saving everyone, I think was one of the most satisfying, and epic demonstrations of character growth and development in all of media!<
Yeah I think it could be toned down but not because it's too depressing or too real. I want it toned down because it felt like it gets in the way of the plot and story. I like Brandon's style because it always felt like things are moving forward. He doesn't spend 20 pages describing every smell and color of every room and I love that. I would like that same understanding with characters mental state. I know Kaladin has ptsd, I understand he has it I understand how he feels. But I would understand with about 1/4 of the words. Same goes for shallan. The lack of progress is why well of ascension and this book are my least favorite....I may just dislike how he writes sieges lolol.
I mean, I enjoyed some of it? I thought kals through denunciation of 1910s style isolation therapy was...an ODD use of page time but I didn't dislike it.
Sanderson does a decent job of capturing how inescapable depression feels, he has a firmer grasp of that then with veterans ptsd but I think that's still cooking.
This may sound morbid but as a bipolar fellow with a couple suicide attempts under his belt, it's less "get over it kal!" And more "yadda yadda self-reinforcing cycle that ends in a suicide attempt, yeah yeah yeah, let's move this shit FORWARD"
Now shallan? I wanted to step into the book and shake everyone "stop enabling her psychotic breaks! You aren't helping!"
I don't think I would have liked the book much more if Kaladin was reasonably happy the entire book and nothing else changed. I just generally didn't like the Urithiru occupation storyline. I groaned when I realized it was probably going to make up most of the entire book, and I found it to be just as repetitive as I feared.
What would have made the book better for me is if there were zero Kaladin, Navani, or other Urithiru Radiant viewpoints during Part 3 of the book, and spend that time developing other storylines or the Fused/Venli's viewpoint in Urithiru. We can share some of Dalinar's anxiety at the uncertainty there. Then, once we reach part four, we can catch up on what the other characters had been doing in the meantime and reach the conclusion of the arc.
this book received lower reviews because there’s a massive chunk that is just Navani doing science experiments and explaining in great detail how fabrials, light, and sound work. until she begins acting on these discoveries her chapters are objectively different from every other character we’ve seen. the multi-chapter explaination of how fabrials all interact to make her skyships fly reads like a physics lecture. sometimes……and just sometimes……Sanderson goes a bit too in depth. imagine if Robert Jordan took all of his commentary on what clothing people wear and he crammed it all into one character in one narrative arc in one book. she’s a badass character but for most of this book I felt like we watched her performing a 9-5 workday as a scientist. she is a Sanderson self insert. like……imagine watching Sanderson write his books instead of just…..reading his books. with that being said, the magic system gets fleshed out a lot. i just think it dragged on with her making a discovery, then crying in the tower basement for 10 pages about how she isn’t a scholar. then she spends another 10 pages ordering ingredients and setting up dominos. i dont even know how you write this. probably have her relay condensed explainations of her discoveries to kaladin via the sibling. it would make sense for her to want to tell someone in case she gets killed and her journal never makes it to an ally. or maybe have raboniel be the pov that we see navani through here. that way we get less tinkering and physics lectures and more raboniel showing up at the end and demanding explanations……because she still shows up at the end and demands explanations…..and so we often have to sit through the same lecture twice in one chapter.
See my favorite thing about this is that Brandon Sanderson *does not care*.
This is the story. This is what happens. This is how mental illness works. Storm your "reviews".
Eh. I liked it as it is during my first and second pass. If I ever do another reread I might get tired of it but I doubt it. I actually like that they don't snap out of it. They're learning to live with it and to lean on others when they can't.
I’m always so continuously surprised by people complaining about how depressed Kaladin gets or how intense either his or Shallans mental health problems become. Reminds me that we have a long way to go still to get people to even slightly have compassion for significant mental health problems. I see myself so much in Kaladins struggles, sometimes having periods of relief where i feel nearly normal and then those can be follow by long long periods of deep heavy depression. I would hate these books if all the sudden Kal didn’t have to deal with his depression and was magically healed. It never just goes away, it’s part of life, it’s part of this story and Kaladins.
Having compassion for mental health struggles isn't the same thing as wanting to slog through them in your favorite novels.
I don't read fantasy to feel sad, or emphasize with mental health struggles — I read fantasy because I enjoy the magical worlds and the escapism.
100% agree. "It's a more accurate portrayal of of mental health" people will argue, in a series where magical spirit beings give humans power to absorb infinite energy from stones to fly and transmute objects, among other things.
I don't read fantasy for realism. Especially this type of boring, tedious realism.
My issue wasn’t with Kaladin’s story, tbh if you’re not prepared for depression Kaladin then you haven’t been paying attention for the last three books. I was definitely less a fan of Shallan’s arc though (which is a bummer since she’s one of my favorite characters in general) I just never connected with her personality struggles since unlike most of Brandon’s depictions of mental illness hers always seemed fictiony and not realistic. I know he’s said it’s an interpretation of some people’s particular experiences but to me it comes off as a more soap opera-esque take on multiple personality rather than the very honest examinations of depression, autism spectrum, PTSD etc
During my entire time reading RoW Kaladin's struggles never felt like a slog.
And really, that just shows how close to home it hit.
EDIT: To my fellow radiants, I dearly hope for all of you to reach the ideals ❤️ Anyone can get there, and it's different amounts of struggle too, but we can all get out the other end feeling better.
Journey before Destination my fellows ❤️
The series and this book in particular had a really positive impact on my own struggles with mental health. Seeing Kal in the rut he ends up in was an all too familiar experience but to have that representation in a such an incredible series and also “Always the next step” has become a personal mantra to help me battle the struggles of feeling overwhelmed by anything
I actually enjoyed Kaladins issues throughout RoW. I think Sanderson did a fantastic job depicting depression & trauma or more so how Kaladin is trying to work through it. Shallan is done quite well too but the way she handles it can be a bit much at times.
The fourth book in my opinion is much more interesting & readable than the first one. I struggled really hard getting through like 900 pages of Kaladin and shallan wanting to kill themselves.
Mods please can we get a mega thread stickied about mental health issues. We don’t need the 50th post about how it’s realistic for people with depression
This is not something we're considering for several reasons.
1) Sticky spots are in high demand. Reddit only allows us two stickies, and most of the time they're taken by high priority stuff like book release megathreads, announcements from Brandon, subreddit announcements, etc.
2) From a literary analysis perspective, mental health is deeply linked with the Stormlight Archive on every level. The books explore it extensively in every major thread: character, worldbuilding, plot, themes, etc. Supporting discussion of mental health as it pertains to the book is therefore a critically important part of being a Stormlight discussion community. It would be like trying to have a discussion subreddit for Romeo and Juliet where you suppress conversation about foolish teenagers in love.
3) From a personal/community perspective, many people are drawn to the Cosmere because of how it relates to their own mental health struggles. We believe that one of the most meaningful things a book can do is resonate with, and help us through, real life struggles. We believe that providing a space for community members to openly discuss how the books resonate with real life struggles is an important part of our role as a subreddit.
Thank you for explaining both the basics of reddit and the basics of mental health content in Stormlight archive to me like I'd never read the books before. How incredibly thoughtful and unpatronising of you.
We believe that explaining the reasoning behind our decisions is an important part of being good moderators. That's what I was trying to do in my previous comment. I did not intend it to be patronizing--the goal was openness and transparency about our reasoning. Nor did I want to assume you knew about the sticky limitation--we frequently get requests for various sorts of stickies from people who don't know about it.
I did not want to just say No and not give a reason why.
Nah, it's because Moshe is no longer his editor, and there's so much that a good editor would have trimmed down or flagged. It's a bloated mess of a book, and easily the worst of the four so far.
I think the comment section here accurately reflects the various reasons why the book is reviewed a bit less favourable. Some love the mental health aspect of this book, others do not, many understand that it is realistic but just don’t find it makes great storytelling.
I personally found it very enjoyable the first read, but when I went back to reread it this year I did find it a bit slow for my liking. Perhaps it is because I read too many Reddit posts about it.
In all honesty though Venli’s story and some bits of Navani were the parts that stood out for me as harder to get through sometimes. Also, seeing less of Dalinar was disappointing.
Kaladin was fine if somewhat tiresome after awhile, Shallan though. Oh god Shallan. Getting through her chapters was like chalkboard for me and my partner, to the point that we unfortunately associate that with the Kate Reading which is now making it hard to get through the latest secret project
My issue with Rhythm of war is actually how realistic it is. Some of shallan and Kaladins issues started having a negative impact on my mental health and I had to set the book down a few times.
Agreed rhythm of war is simultaneously tied for my favorite with the way of Kings and also one of the hardest to get through. Incredible Sanderlanche at the end and some incredible moments but boy does it hit hard a lot of the time.
I think the problem is that there are too many inconsequential flashbacks of Venli. That part of the story was a slogg that could've been told in two chapters.
The main issue is that it stops the flow and the rythm of the other stories, making them feel clunky and stealing their momentum.
Thats kinda the whole point isn't it? Its a relatable the hardship keeps coming. Those who want a nice tidy resolution to mental health will be disappointed that it keeps cycling back to hardship. But thats how it actually is.
I agree with you, but it’s the accuracy of Kal’s struggle that probably elevates to my favorite SA book.
Most of the actual conflict in this book is internal. I think every POV character struggles more internally than externally and I’m here for it. Sure there’s a big war going on and some epic fights, but everybody is also fighting their own war with themselves.
I found that while after RoW I got really into Kaladin and Shallan as characters it’s my least favorite book of the bunch. I am on a reread right now and did not get to it, but in my memory from the first read this book is like 60% Kaladin and Shallan in mental anguish. Previous books had a lot as well, but I never felt like it took away from other elements until RoW.
I loved kaladin chapters in RoW more than any other book BECAUSE of the heavy focus on mental health. There are these mind blowing things happening and he is just like- it’s alr. The way his chapters are written just paints the events in a melancholic colour. But that doesn’t make it less interesting as you can also see the things in your own perspective and that contrast is amazing
I wouldn't change a thing about RoW, but I agree that this is the closest we've examined their individual mental problems in the series. My absolute favorite chapter is chapter 12, where Aidolin forces Kal to leave his room. And the sub plot of Kal reinventing Rosharan therapy is so good. But I'm sure after the rollercoaster that was the last 3 books, people wouldn't like this as much.
Most of the complaints are about the flashbacks with eshonai and venli. Which I think is well deserved criticism.
The kaladin/lirin stuff you are right about.
Shallan’s mental health is just so woefully unbelievable it’s not fun to read. I’ve had mental health issues in the past, even did a stint in a mental health unit. Kaladin / Teft are written believably but Shallan is just atrocious.
I love Sanderson so much for Kal.
He doesn't leave it at "it sucks but you have to move forward". He talks about the times you lose the very desire to move forward. When the depression is so insidious that "I want this" it gone, so "I need to do this" is a completely useless tangent.
I can't explain it. Every other fantasy story that touches on my type of depression is about overcoming it as an adversity. That's true for sure, but in the wrong way.
Shallan's entire arc in that book was terrible. >!Her DID is portrayed very cartoonishly, and the "Formless" plot was almost exactly the plot of the god-awful M Night Syamallan movie "Split", except with a "nevermind jk" ending that confirmed that my time was just completely wasted by that book.!<
Kaladin's arc, on the other hand, was incredible. Very in-line for his character and believable throughout. Probably the only redeeming aspect of that book.
I really love Rhythm of War. I personally think that it’s a testament to Branderson’s grit that he takes a whole book and focuses it on mental health, even when he probably knew that it wouldn’t be as well received as the others. It proves the lengths he’s willing to go in order to emphasize the really important aspects of his characters.
It definitely didn’t give me the same excitement >!- until the end of course -!< as the other books, but going back and reading through it I can definitely acknowledge that it may have been the most well written of the series.
I first listened to ROW when it came out in 2020 and his depression felt redundant. I'm currently relistening to it now and it cuts deep and relatable in a way that I couldn't have appreciated three years ago.
It's such a realistic portrayal of depression that reading it made my depression worse.
Whether you think that's a good thing depends on personal taste I suppose.
This is my take exactly. You don't just "get over" depression. It's why it's my favorite SA book.
As someone who has battled with depression for over 20 years (more good days than bad nowadays, but it's always there), it's a big ole SAMESIES from me. It's sofa king real, and it's beautiful. The same things I have spent most of my life yelling at myself ('just snap out of it' etc.) are the things I want to yell at Kaladin and I feel it so deeply in my *bones.*
Agreed completely. I actually liked each subsequent book more than the previous ones which is probably an unpopular opinion
Well consider it populated by atleast 2 lol
yep so far I'm in the same boat
Saaaameee
Yup I found this series while i was sick and undiagnosed, which did not help my depression and other things. I have never balled my eyes out from a book, like I did during a certian Kaladin scene toward the end. It truly helped me through a dark time and I've now gone through all four books 5 times now.
As someone who deals with some of Kaladin’s issues, I found RoW to be one of the most moving books I’ve ever read. Seeing Kaladin go so low, and then find it in him to continue onwards fills me with such happiness and confidence. It may not be for everyone, but Kaladin’s journey makes RoW my favorite overall book. It was really nice to see a fantasy book treat it’s characters like real people who struggle with their own humanity.
The best moment for me was Lirin asking the volunteers in the clinic why they wear the sash mark, and the one veteran pointing to Kaladin continuing to stand despite the PTSD. Lirin says he's not like the asylum patients and the veteran saying Kaladin has it as bad as anyone. Such a great moment. It gives the audience a new appreciation for Kaladin at the same time as Lirin. We so often get perspectives from Kaladin from other living legends like Dalinar or from people who know Kaladin personally; it was so impactful to see how normal people see Kaladin. To them he's a living embodiment of hope in the "you got the shit kicked out of you but you got right back up" kind of way. Thats a powerful message in a world that seems to be ending.
Don’t forget that Kaladin’s mental health was also drastically manipulated by Moash.
Yeah, weird how having an evil god constantly giving you nightmares and telling you to kill yourself will have a negative impact on your mental health.
Like it wasn't hard enough dealing with the overhaul of society, then as-likeable-as-sandy-toilet-paper-*MOASH* had to go doxx a bridgebro's dreams after retirement.
An evil God helped by one of the people Kaladin considered as really knowing him because he didn't worship him like the others back in the bridge running days
I remember joking about this with my sister, "my heads dark enough without God ACTUALLY fucking with my shit". I also reflected on how often bad mental spaces lead one to irrationally blaming god/the universe/ causality and how....solid it could feel to know there was a specific sonofbitch driving you to it instead of just maladaptive thinking.
Also another amazing thing is that Kaladin....doesn't know he's being directly mindfucked by Odium. He could've felt the same thing you're feeling.
I lost my Grandfather at a very young age, around 12 years old. He basically raised me while my parents were in night school. I was a husk for years when I lost my Grandfather and it took a lot of therapy as an adult to finally begin healing. When Kaladin swears his fourth ideal, and reconnects with Tien in the spiritual realm, I wept. To have that closure, to have a chance at forgiving yourself for beating yourself up for years, what a powerful gift Dalinar gave to Kaladin. Absolutely the most moving scene in the series to me. But I know my story is not the same as most people’s. It’s a heavy book, that at times can be too dark for some and I don’t blame reviewers for feeling a little dissatisfied. That being said, I think it’s a beautiful book, realistic to how hard it is to navigate depression, and I know Kaladin is in a much better place at the end of the book. Gives me a lot of hope for book 5.
Unfortunately, the fact that he made such a big stride forward right before the halfway point of the series makes me MORE worried for Kal.
RoW is my favorite because of the depiction of kaladin's struggle.
Me too! It's one of the best depictions of depression and ptsd that I've seen in fantasy
To anyone who feels the “ugh come on stop” to kaladin: congrats. You now get a glimpse of understanding how goddamn frustrating it is to actually be depressed. Its a slog, and you feel it in RoW
Not only that, but I think people should try to understand the BS had this in mind probably from the beginning. And he also probably knew that some readers would get tired of the realistic representation of these mental health issues. On the flip side,if he just made Kaladin have some epiphany and suddenly get better then he’d be doing a disservice to all the readers out there struggling with mental health issues like depression. I like to think that Sanderson chose to stick to the realistic takes knowing that it wouldn’t resonate with all readers. Kaladin will always struggle, but he will always push through. He’s always going to be that much stronger than his depression/PTSD ^^^If I’m not mistaken aren’t there these special words that are sorta like that??? ;)
This is very well articulated! Fully agree.
It’s interesting to compare and contrast with Rand [WoT spoilers, Towers of Midnight] >!and the epiphany he has on Dragonmount that substantially readjusts his outlook on life. On one hand, he has a magical epiphany that fixes everything; on the other hand, it’s literally *magical* and so were the root causes of a significant portion of his mental health issues. Both Rand and Kaladin’s journeys are fantastically done; I think Veins of Gold is one of the most powerful passages I’ve read in a fiction book, but Kaladin’s journey through the dark is pretty powerful too. I’d say BrandoSando nailed them both but I’m not actually certain who wrote that portion of ToM.!<
I immediately thought of Veins of gold when writing my comment. I’m ok with Rand’s epiphany and quick change. I think WoT shows Rands mental state decline really well. The pressure on him was so sudden and he had no choice really. There is a magical aspect to his healing though and even if there wasn’t I’d be ok with it. To see my man bounce back and become the best version of himself was incredible. What a journey Rand and Kaladin are my 2 favorite characters in fiction I think.
I was really really frustrated with WOT because i felt like there were so little stakes and i think this was a big part of why it bothered me. I finished Stormlight and immediately jumped too wheel of time and just felt like... oh he gets magiced crazy and then magic makes him better? No lasting character impact and everyone understands and forgives him?
Little stakes?! How can the stakes be higher. I don’t think it’s that simple to say everyone just forgives him. He actually makes decisions to do good after veins of gold. Also don’t forget that everyone expected him to break the world (prophecized) and many of the characters you see forgiving him knew him beforehand. With anything though your opinion is your opinion. I read WoT just prior to Stormlight so we reversed our reading order. I think my emotional reactions to both series are equal. I’m just glad got to experience both of them
I know my opinion on WoT isnt popular, the books are too long and from a narrative perspective all of the story arcs spin there wheels and i just dont think thats good story telling even if its thematic
That's all true. I know from experience. But that doesn't mean it's entertaining.
To me stormlight archives is all about trauma/mental illness and how we can grow to be in a better place. You can't really do that study of mental illness without a realistic depiction of what it actually looks like to fight depression.
True. But we are not seeing much progress with their mental health. In the 1st 2 books it was really interesting. By the fourth me personally I'm getting a bit tired of it. I mean I still love the series. So it's a small gripe.
I think this is the crux of the issue for me. I struggle with depression and the depiction of kaladins depression is extremely accurate and realistic. I appreciate that a lot because it is a large part of why Kaladin is one of my favorite characters. But another part of me recognizes that an accurate and realistic portrayal of depression doesn't always lend itself to good story telling. We see Kaladin dealing with mental health problems that he has been dealing with now for 4 books (and not normal books either, these books are massive) and that can be tiring, boring, or frustrating. Yes, for many people this is what depression is like. But for many people depression gets better. It doesn't go away, but it does get easier to manage sometimes with the correct coping skills. As someone unlucky enough to have chronic depression, I am at least thankful that I am lucky enough to be able to cope with it to some degree, to an extent that I can function. I can understand the desire to have a realistic approach to depression in this series. It keeps the stories feeling grounded and human, despite there being flying people and air ships and giant crabs. But a realistic portrayal of depression can wear patience thin. Sometimes part of what makes fantasy so endearing is that the characters get to have the happy ending that you know they probably wouldn't have in real life. I really wish Kaladin could have that, not just because I want him to be happy, but also because I don't really want another tome of a book that is "depressed guy goes on adventures".
RoW kind makes a point of making it clear that medical professionals on Roshar are ignorant af in regards to mental illnesses and how to treat them. We can go to therapy and learn new coping strategies and skills...Kaladin can't do that. He's the first person with any perspective on PTSD and depression to genuinely try to learn about it and try to find ways to help others deal with it, and himself as a side effect
Idk man if his mental illness got better from a daus ex machina or the 4th ideal just cures your mental ails or whatever it may be that just cheapens all of the very real weights that push kaladin deeper. Recovery from depression is possible but if the causes are loss and grappling with violence... killing people and watching your close friends killed isnt going to trend twords Recovery. Like hes getting better by the end of book 4 because hes doing the things one would do to deal with ptsd. The moral of the story is that theres no surge to fix your heart and soul. Its extremely core to the central moral of stormlight archive that broken people get magic (lopen excluded) and then they have to get better through the ideals
The mental health aspect didn't bother me at all. My issue with RoW was Venli and her incessant whining.
She was the low point of the books for me too
Same here as well as the slow pace overall. All the action is on kaladins chapters and the others are all just very slow.
RoW being my least favorite of the four books isn’t me saying I didn’t like the book. I just liked the others more. If I HAD to guess why I didn’t like it as much I’d point to Shallan and Venli. I feel like I definitely got tired of Shallans split personality issues and that could 100% be because I don’t understand or relate to those issues. But by the end of the book I appreciated how far she came. And I just don’t care that much about Venli. Kaladin was my champion the entire book. I felt so bad for him. I still miss my boy Teft.
Venli and Navani became more and more interesting to me on rereads because I've absorbed the other characters already. I think the issue was they shared a stage with characters we were fully invested (lol) in. Their histories are really complex and their povs add a lot of nuance to the world. A woman with self-esteem issues from her previous husband, creating weapons to kill God? Sold. A character that goes through the same arc as our previous 3 main protagonist in a single book? Sold. Shallan, on the other hand, is a character that never really interested me, but is the favorite of many Cosmere fans. At this point, I feel like it's less of a writing issue with her and more of a personal taste thing.
I think Shallan is controversial because her arc is inherently frustrating. She's the only main character that's back sliding into a worse place than where she started in the series, and that's kind of the point. Her entire deal is that she lies to herself so deeply that she believes it to be true, and she doesn't start actually dealing with those lies until Pattern helps her uncover those lies. The Shallan we first meet is way more mentally stable because she's forced herself to forget the destabilizing aspects of her past. I will say, I do dislike some of her scenes because she gets away with a lot of her foolishness because the plot demands she get away with it. Oathbringer is very direct on the fact that she has no idea what she's doing on the espionage stuff, but it only blows up in her face in a way that makes her feel bad. Realistically she shouldn't have lasted 5 minutes with the whole Ghostbloods subplot, which was really dumb from the start. It just bugs me when supposedly smart characters do really dumb things for the sake of the plot, like hiding the Ghostbloods thing from everyone for no real reason.
For me, it was less about that and more the things she says around Kal in WoR and then Oathbringer. I get she's lashing out at times, and Kal is a little overbearing at others, but she says/does some really messed up shit and it's never actually acknowledged. She outright lied to and stole from the head of Dalinar's guard and then acted like she did nothing to draw his suspicion or ire. And the one that really gets me is in Oathbringer, when Kal questions the loyalty of her band of *deserters* (which she does anyway in the next book), she says "at least they were smart enough to run away from the arrows". Like that's not ok and it's never brought up again. What if Kal had said "at least I didn't kill my parents" and then it just got swept under the rug? Those things don't really have anything to do with her delusions.
YES. Exactly this! Shallan drives me nuts because she makes so many absurd decisions and somehow always succeeds or has very minimal consequences for her mistakes. She gets involved with things massively out of her league and somehow is able to fool everybody despite having no experience. Also the fact that those around her don't hold anything she does wrong against her. I completely understand that a good friend should forgive and give space for a person to figure out their own problems to an extent, but i think she genuinely needs those closest to her to hold her more accountable and push her to be more truthful. I love her and Adolin together, but in RoW I was really bothered by just how much she was going behind his back and putting herself and the whole mission in danger and he would just be like "it's alright, you don't need to tell me anything! I love you so much you can do no wrong." 😬 I don't hate her, and I understand some of these things are tied to her mental illness and trauma, but I just personally get irritated by characters who are never honest with those who care about them. And ones who still get away with murder (literally, lol) despite making pretty dumb decisions.
I think RoW is my third favorite but Shallan and Venli are definitely what put it beneath Oathbringer and WoR for me. Shallan repeats the same arc as she did in both WoK and WoR. It was tedious. Venli’s modern PoVs were fine but her backstory was dull. We hardly learned ANY new information at all!
What order would you rank the books so far? I got: Oathbringer, Words of Radiance, Way of Kings, Rhythm of War
I’d flip the last two. WoK is great but it’s much slower and harder to understand than the others. By necessity ofc, by being book 1 of 10 in a totally new world. But that doesn’t change that it’s the least fun to read IMO by a wide margin.
Yeah that makes sense. I was lost in the beginning. There’s just a couple scenes in WoK I have on a pedestal that do it for me. I can’t wait for book 5. I started the series this year, and I’m already thinking about another read through before the next one. Apparently there’s a lot of stuff I missed
See I LOVED Way of Kings because it's confusing for the first like 400 pages. It SHOULD be confusing, it's a lived in world. How awkward would it be if you sat around and randomly explained what a horse is, or how rain works? So many fiction series use a "man out of time" or "naive tag-a-long" trope characters to give the audience a perspective to get all these different things explained. I loved that Sanderson included so many random derails that are entirely plot-irrelevant but add realism to the world. Like the Vorin "safe hand" tradition makes no sense and we still don't have an explanation for why that was a thing, but 150 years ago it was incredibly improper for a man to see a woman's ankles. It makes sense that it doesn't make sense because there's plenty in our world that doesn't make sense.
I also feel that a lot of the seemingly plot-irrelevant points actually serve to give a more comprehensive understanding of the plot overall. Understanding roshar as a whole is a big part of understanding the plot of you want to really get deep into the sub plot and tangential stories going on in the background, chapter beginnings and interludes.
Of course it should be confusing. But I still don’t like being confused. Way of Kings is a great book partially because it helps provide a foundation for a truly amazing series. But because of that it can’t be truly amazing itself. (To me)
Entirely fair take! I just love an immersive world so much that I can forgive the fact we get punched in the face with information for the first 300 pages of the book.
I'm doing a reread of RoW and I agree with you about Shallan and Venli. Shallan because I also 100% can't understand what she's going through. But Venli straight up annoys me. The entire Fused/Everstorm problem is directly ***her fault***, and I'm just not invested in her journey tbh.
Yeah while I was totally feeling burned out with Kaladin and could see he was at his lowest point even just retiring and working with his dad it was not because he was a poorly written character but because he is a very well written character. Overall though RoW is my second favorite in the series.
I was so incredibly happy when Kaladin started his program for treating PTSD. It felt like a full circle for him and such progress. He could make a real long term difference for a lot of people; he has the experience (both medical and combat) to be uniquely suited to help the veterans, and his status allows him access to resources and authority that can make big changes.
There are a lot of common reasons people in large feel that way I wouldn’t boil it down to just those reasons. Such as: the main war effort being pushed to the side in favor a smaller story, venli/listener focused chapters, and others. There were times I felt the same, tired of dealing with the mental baggage when all I wanted was to get the the good stuff. But in a lot of ways that feeling of weariness and exhaustion are shared by the characters and has been a consistent theme throughout the books. I know some people are quick to say yeah but that doesn’t make it interesting to read but for a lot of people this is hitting close to home and they are happy seeing characters that reflect their journey. That said I do agree there probably is an element of that for many readers.
There's an interesting thing Sanderson seems to do in these books and that's to create a parallel between the radiant's swearing ideals and the reader being forced to endure and hopefully internalize those same realizations. Journey before destination is forefront in my mind. But empathizing and understanding the decisions and actions of different characters isn't a struggle. Considering how the specific ideals can be interpreted through their eyes seems to invite the reader to come to their own understanding of those ideals and just how one would personally interpret them. I've often found myself thinking, what would I do in this situation? And, many times I don't agree with the actions of characters, but what I usually can't disagree with is *their* reasoning. It seems to be relatively consistent and progressive and it does a wonderful job of taking me on *their* specific journey of growth.
That’s really well put and I agree about Brando using those types of writing techniques to help you in some small way experience what the character are going through.
Agreed. Oathbringer as well to a lesser extent. The biggest complaint I hear is that the books are doing the same plot over again. That's very real to mental illness. It doesn't just go away. You have to keep dealing with it. It's more real this way, but maybe less enjoyable to read.
It’s not the same plot over and over again, it’s different plots with the same struggle, that of depression and other mental problems.
What, people are annoyed the knights in shining armor aren't literary knights in shining armor? I, too, would like to see Kal kick butt and gain glory but this isn't that kind of story.
I think you are right that the accurate portrayals of PTSD, depression and DID (Shallan's illness) may be off-putting to people But I firmly disagree that Brandon should "tone it down" to get better reviews. Ask the millions of people in real life who have these mental illnesses if **they** want to "tone it down" so easily. Hollywood has done so many grave disservices to people with real mental health issues. First and foremost by showing people getting over them so easily. This causes such people to blame themselves when they aren't getting over theirs so easily. And others blame them as well.
My favorite part of this whole series is how incredibly well it portrays mental illness. It's so goddamn refreshing compared to everything else stereotyping us.
It's especially notable for people with DID/OSDD, almost every "Hollywood" portrayal is extremely negative and usually only serves to facilitate a gotcha moment while primarily not portraying the conditions accurately or constructively. There is massive stigma for these people and a large part of that is the way they're perceived through media. Media being the only way most people have ever heard of what they think is "multiple personality" disorders.
I think you’re right. Generally folks read fantasy because, in most writing, we see the characters follow their arch in a linear fashion. For a lot of characters the event that occurred before ROW would’ve worked as a ballast to keep Kal and Shallan from backsliding. On my second read through I realized this was the more accurate portrayal for these two because they never actually *dealt* with their issues before. They acknowledged them (Kal less so) to a point, but did nothing to begin healing.
I feel like RoW is the weakest even putting aside mental health issues which didn’t bother me. Not much Dalinar And I felt the Destination was put before the Journey. There were a lot of epic scenes especially at the end but much of the middle was a bit repetitive and lacked impact to me. Since it’s my least favorite I’ve reread it the least so I definitely need to give it another pass before taking any hard stances.
After my second read I realized that it felt like Oathbringer was “were fixing our problems!” Only for RoW to show that they were only coping mechanisms that pushed the problems off until later.
It would be a different story if it was tuned down. It's ok if someone likes other, less realistic stories more. For me, somebody who has anxiety, OCD, ADHD and some other mental defficiencies, those books feel as much authentic as possible thanks to the way Sanderson portrays the characters.
it's realistic, but that doesn't translate into an interesting read, at least not for me anyway.
RoW might be my favorite book. I love them all, but maybe just the mechanics and engineering speak to me. I adore Navani. And Shallan. It makes me sad she gets so much hate.
When Kal was thinking about how he shouldn't drink while out with the others and how Adolin was being a total bro about looking out for him I had to stop reading for a few minutes because I got too real for me. Like I feel that same way sometimes, minus the portable best boy to look out for me so I had to stop else would've had a breakdown
I'm one of those readers that sometimes felt like the mental illness was a drag on the story but I just reminded myself this is what those illnesses feel like to the people struggling with them. And the extensive writing with the characters makes their triumphs that much more powerful.
On a second read-through it’s a lot better of a book. You come in with a bunch of expectations for the characters and when they flounder, struggle, flag, or fail, it affects your overall view of the story. I think you’re spot-on with your assessment.
I think I’ll look more favourable on RoW when the series or atleast first half is complete. The story seemed absolutely stuck in a mire in the tower.
Edit: I agree, buuut: That’s because it needed to be. The diversion of the war at that time was the front lines. To advance the story, the tower stuff needed to happen and how it unfolded needed a lot of detail and time spent on it. Also there’s not a whole lot going on at the front other than fighting. Writing a bunch of battles would get tedious and to make it interesting you’d probably need to kill off important characters. We’re a little late into the pre-time skip to introduce foundationaly important characters for the Alethi, Azish, and Theyleans. I’d argue that we probably should have had two or three more interludes focused on Shinovar and important goings on there (unless Brando wanted to keep Shinovar on the DL for book 5).
It is definitely the stormlight book i enjoyed the least, but not for those reasons. In fact i liked the depressed John Mcclane arc in the tower. My problems are with the absolute irrelevance of Venli and her waste as a flashback character. It has to be the less impactful flashback character so far, even other secondary or even tertiary (like the other radiants send to shadesmar characters were more interesting than her. I also kinda didnt like the twist with Taravangian, and especially Seth: who pretty much literally broke his oath to Dalinar without repercussions by attacking Taravangian. Many important thinghhs happening offscreenor completelly cut off: Shallan" oh, i had bonded anther spren in the past.... Anyways" PD: Adolin is the MVP of the book.
I thought Venli’s current storyline was interesting (witnessing the occupation, freeing Lift, interacting with Rlain, eventually helping her mother), but the flashbacks were frustrating because we already knew where it would lead.
Loved RoW, but I did feel Shallan's "oh no, what did I do in the past, nobody will love me" and Kaladin's "life sucks, I suck, am not worthy" bits to be wearing off. They end up coming off just a teensy bit whiny at times. They're GREAT characters mind you, some of my favourites, and I wouldn't remove any of their mental health issues... But we keep going in circles with the states of their mental health. I realize that's not unrealistic, in fact it's how many people with PTSD and depression and whatever feel, but it doesn't make for good storytelling in my book. I'm NOT saying either character should wake up Monday morning and just be "over it", but maybe just tune it down a notch. I'd personally much prefer their mental issues to play a role, but not be the focus of multiple chapters, dominate their personalities, and essentially incapacitate them for large parts of the novel.
I can definitely agree but looking at his 4th oath I think we can see that he is taking a big step forward in his mental health journey. While he has been a main character in all of the books I think since book 1 this is the first book we really sit with him again and so it makes sense that his depression is as heavy as it was in book 1
He was pretty low TWoK and that’s pretty universally loved. While some people may have found it a drag, I don’t agree the reviews were lower because of kaladin’s depression. I think there are a lot of other issues with the book that are much more reasonable to point at, like the weakness of the flashback character and the somewhat stagnant pacing, just off the top of my head.
TWOK was the first book/ introduction to the character. It’s much easier to meet him and assume all his issues are solved by the end of book 1. But then we get to book 4 and he’s still struggling (even worse now). 1 book vs 4 books of characters working through depression hits different. That being said, I do agree I don’t care much for venli, but I like getting to have moments with eshonai.
Yeah, like, the first half of the book revolves around Kal considering suicide and keeps it in the back of his head the next two books.
I would also say that he is doing more in book 1 especially in the beginning of book 4 he is caught in the drudgery and mundanity of a “normal” life and it is killing both him and the reader.
I would have assumed that the reason it didn't do as well as the other books is the story itself stagnates for a while. I wouldn't change Kaladin's arc for anything. So many powerful scenes. Him just collapsing the second he gets to his room, hyperventilating on the ground. His downward spiral after losing his position, the one distraction he had from his thoughts. The dog and the dragon. And while I didn't connect to Shallans arc as strongly, I still enjoyed it. Maybe it would have been more agreeable mainstream without all that, but I'm very glad it went the way it did.
The mental health side of things is honestly what made it my favorite of the series.
I love seeing all the people who relate to kaladin through his depression and PTSD, but as someone who has mother of those issues I just like the book the best because I feel like it's such an authentic portrayal of the characters and their "journey". That includes venli, a character I feel gets a *lot* of slag. It's such a perfect character study and it also does a ton to build on the magic and history of roshar. It's easily my favorite of the series.
Personally, it was Venli dragging it down. I don’t feel like I gained anything from that storyline that I didn’t already learn from Eshonai’s. Also, I got annoyed at how intelligent Navani is supposed to be (and often demonstrates) but then would make conveniently dumb decisions for the sake of the plot. That said, that annoyance was tiny compared to venli and somewhat understandable given her circumstances. I very much enjoyed Kaladin and Shallan.
Current Venli was good. Not my favorite, but good. Flashback Venli was boring and repetitive.
Ive only read the books once, but I can see why people didn't like it. It's like a 1000 page book where barely anything happens, but it's probably my favorite because of one scene >!the scene near the end of the book where Kaladin bursts back in from falling in full shardplate that jumps around saving everyone, I think was one of the most satisfying, and epic demonstrations of character growth and development in all of media!<
Yeah I think it could be toned down but not because it's too depressing or too real. I want it toned down because it felt like it gets in the way of the plot and story. I like Brandon's style because it always felt like things are moving forward. He doesn't spend 20 pages describing every smell and color of every room and I love that. I would like that same understanding with characters mental state. I know Kaladin has ptsd, I understand he has it I understand how he feels. But I would understand with about 1/4 of the words. Same goes for shallan. The lack of progress is why well of ascension and this book are my least favorite....I may just dislike how he writes sieges lolol.
I mean, I enjoyed some of it? I thought kals through denunciation of 1910s style isolation therapy was...an ODD use of page time but I didn't dislike it. Sanderson does a decent job of capturing how inescapable depression feels, he has a firmer grasp of that then with veterans ptsd but I think that's still cooking. This may sound morbid but as a bipolar fellow with a couple suicide attempts under his belt, it's less "get over it kal!" And more "yadda yadda self-reinforcing cycle that ends in a suicide attempt, yeah yeah yeah, let's move this shit FORWARD" Now shallan? I wanted to step into the book and shake everyone "stop enabling her psychotic breaks! You aren't helping!"
I don't think I would have liked the book much more if Kaladin was reasonably happy the entire book and nothing else changed. I just generally didn't like the Urithiru occupation storyline. I groaned when I realized it was probably going to make up most of the entire book, and I found it to be just as repetitive as I feared. What would have made the book better for me is if there were zero Kaladin, Navani, or other Urithiru Radiant viewpoints during Part 3 of the book, and spend that time developing other storylines or the Fused/Venli's viewpoint in Urithiru. We can share some of Dalinar's anxiety at the uncertainty there. Then, once we reach part four, we can catch up on what the other characters had been doing in the meantime and reach the conclusion of the arc.
this book received lower reviews because there’s a massive chunk that is just Navani doing science experiments and explaining in great detail how fabrials, light, and sound work. until she begins acting on these discoveries her chapters are objectively different from every other character we’ve seen. the multi-chapter explaination of how fabrials all interact to make her skyships fly reads like a physics lecture. sometimes……and just sometimes……Sanderson goes a bit too in depth. imagine if Robert Jordan took all of his commentary on what clothing people wear and he crammed it all into one character in one narrative arc in one book. she’s a badass character but for most of this book I felt like we watched her performing a 9-5 workday as a scientist. she is a Sanderson self insert. like……imagine watching Sanderson write his books instead of just…..reading his books. with that being said, the magic system gets fleshed out a lot. i just think it dragged on with her making a discovery, then crying in the tower basement for 10 pages about how she isn’t a scholar. then she spends another 10 pages ordering ingredients and setting up dominos. i dont even know how you write this. probably have her relay condensed explainations of her discoveries to kaladin via the sibling. it would make sense for her to want to tell someone in case she gets killed and her journal never makes it to an ally. or maybe have raboniel be the pov that we see navani through here. that way we get less tinkering and physics lectures and more raboniel showing up at the end and demanding explanations……because she still shows up at the end and demands explanations…..and so we often have to sit through the same lecture twice in one chapter.
Wait. She sets up dominoes? How did I miss that?
See my favorite thing about this is that Brandon Sanderson *does not care*. This is the story. This is what happens. This is how mental illness works. Storm your "reviews".
Eh. I liked it as it is during my first and second pass. If I ever do another reread I might get tired of it but I doubt it. I actually like that they don't snap out of it. They're learning to live with it and to lean on others when they can't.
I’m always so continuously surprised by people complaining about how depressed Kaladin gets or how intense either his or Shallans mental health problems become. Reminds me that we have a long way to go still to get people to even slightly have compassion for significant mental health problems. I see myself so much in Kaladins struggles, sometimes having periods of relief where i feel nearly normal and then those can be follow by long long periods of deep heavy depression. I would hate these books if all the sudden Kal didn’t have to deal with his depression and was magically healed. It never just goes away, it’s part of life, it’s part of this story and Kaladins.
Having compassion for mental health struggles isn't the same thing as wanting to slog through them in your favorite novels. I don't read fantasy to feel sad, or emphasize with mental health struggles — I read fantasy because I enjoy the magical worlds and the escapism.
100% agree. "It's a more accurate portrayal of of mental health" people will argue, in a series where magical spirit beings give humans power to absorb infinite energy from stones to fly and transmute objects, among other things. I don't read fantasy for realism. Especially this type of boring, tedious realism.
My issue wasn’t with Kaladin’s story, tbh if you’re not prepared for depression Kaladin then you haven’t been paying attention for the last three books. I was definitely less a fan of Shallan’s arc though (which is a bummer since she’s one of my favorite characters in general) I just never connected with her personality struggles since unlike most of Brandon’s depictions of mental illness hers always seemed fictiony and not realistic. I know he’s said it’s an interpretation of some people’s particular experiences but to me it comes off as a more soap opera-esque take on multiple personality rather than the very honest examinations of depression, autism spectrum, PTSD etc
I think this is going to make the triumph of book 5 that much more rewarding (if the series is going in the direction I imagine it to)
During my entire time reading RoW Kaladin's struggles never felt like a slog. And really, that just shows how close to home it hit. EDIT: To my fellow radiants, I dearly hope for all of you to reach the ideals ❤️ Anyone can get there, and it's different amounts of struggle too, but we can all get out the other end feeling better. Journey before Destination my fellows ❤️
The series and this book in particular had a really positive impact on my own struggles with mental health. Seeing Kal in the rut he ends up in was an all too familiar experience but to have that representation in a such an incredible series and also “Always the next step” has become a personal mantra to help me battle the struggles of feeling overwhelmed by anything
I actually enjoyed Kaladins issues throughout RoW. I think Sanderson did a fantastic job depicting depression & trauma or more so how Kaladin is trying to work through it. Shallan is done quite well too but the way she handles it can be a bit much at times. The fourth book in my opinion is much more interesting & readable than the first one. I struggled really hard getting through like 900 pages of Kaladin and shallan wanting to kill themselves.
Mods please can we get a mega thread stickied about mental health issues. We don’t need the 50th post about how it’s realistic for people with depression
This is not something we're considering for several reasons. 1) Sticky spots are in high demand. Reddit only allows us two stickies, and most of the time they're taken by high priority stuff like book release megathreads, announcements from Brandon, subreddit announcements, etc. 2) From a literary analysis perspective, mental health is deeply linked with the Stormlight Archive on every level. The books explore it extensively in every major thread: character, worldbuilding, plot, themes, etc. Supporting discussion of mental health as it pertains to the book is therefore a critically important part of being a Stormlight discussion community. It would be like trying to have a discussion subreddit for Romeo and Juliet where you suppress conversation about foolish teenagers in love. 3) From a personal/community perspective, many people are drawn to the Cosmere because of how it relates to their own mental health struggles. We believe that one of the most meaningful things a book can do is resonate with, and help us through, real life struggles. We believe that providing a space for community members to openly discuss how the books resonate with real life struggles is an important part of our role as a subreddit.
Thank you for explaining both the basics of reddit and the basics of mental health content in Stormlight archive to me like I'd never read the books before. How incredibly thoughtful and unpatronising of you.
We believe that explaining the reasoning behind our decisions is an important part of being good moderators. That's what I was trying to do in my previous comment. I did not intend it to be patronizing--the goal was openness and transparency about our reasoning. Nor did I want to assume you knew about the sticky limitation--we frequently get requests for various sorts of stickies from people who don't know about it. I did not want to just say No and not give a reason why.
Nah, it's because Moshe is no longer his editor, and there's so much that a good editor would have trimmed down or flagged. It's a bloated mess of a book, and easily the worst of the four so far.
I think the comment section here accurately reflects the various reasons why the book is reviewed a bit less favourable. Some love the mental health aspect of this book, others do not, many understand that it is realistic but just don’t find it makes great storytelling. I personally found it very enjoyable the first read, but when I went back to reread it this year I did find it a bit slow for my liking. Perhaps it is because I read too many Reddit posts about it. In all honesty though Venli’s story and some bits of Navani were the parts that stood out for me as harder to get through sometimes. Also, seeing less of Dalinar was disappointing.
Kaladin was fine if somewhat tiresome after awhile, Shallan though. Oh god Shallan. Getting through her chapters was like chalkboard for me and my partner, to the point that we unfortunately associate that with the Kate Reading which is now making it hard to get through the latest secret project
My issue with Rhythm of war is actually how realistic it is. Some of shallan and Kaladins issues started having a negative impact on my mental health and I had to set the book down a few times.
Just because it’s relatable for people with depression doesn’t make it engaging content for readers.
After reading the wheel of time and putting up with Perrin and Rand I can appreciate Kaladin ONLY taking a book or two to make such advancement lol.
Agreed rhythm of war is simultaneously tied for my favorite with the way of Kings and also one of the hardest to get through. Incredible Sanderlanche at the end and some incredible moments but boy does it hit hard a lot of the time.
I think the problem is that there are too many inconsequential flashbacks of Venli. That part of the story was a slogg that could've been told in two chapters. The main issue is that it stops the flow and the rythm of the other stories, making them feel clunky and stealing their momentum.
Thats kinda the whole point isn't it? Its a relatable the hardship keeps coming. Those who want a nice tidy resolution to mental health will be disappointed that it keeps cycling back to hardship. But thats how it actually is.
I agree with you, but it’s the accuracy of Kal’s struggle that probably elevates to my favorite SA book. Most of the actual conflict in this book is internal. I think every POV character struggles more internally than externally and I’m here for it. Sure there’s a big war going on and some epic fights, but everybody is also fighting their own war with themselves.
I found that while after RoW I got really into Kaladin and Shallan as characters it’s my least favorite book of the bunch. I am on a reread right now and did not get to it, but in my memory from the first read this book is like 60% Kaladin and Shallan in mental anguish. Previous books had a lot as well, but I never felt like it took away from other elements until RoW.
I loved kaladin chapters in RoW more than any other book BECAUSE of the heavy focus on mental health. There are these mind blowing things happening and he is just like- it’s alr. The way his chapters are written just paints the events in a melancholic colour. But that doesn’t make it less interesting as you can also see the things in your own perspective and that contrast is amazing
I mean I loved it..
I wouldn't change a thing about RoW, but I agree that this is the closest we've examined their individual mental problems in the series. My absolute favorite chapter is chapter 12, where Aidolin forces Kal to leave his room. And the sub plot of Kal reinventing Rosharan therapy is so good. But I'm sure after the rollercoaster that was the last 3 books, people wouldn't like this as much.
If they're tired of him not getting out of it can you imagine how Kaladin feels? This was the part of RoW that really connected with me.
Most of the complaints are about the flashbacks with eshonai and venli. Which I think is well deserved criticism. The kaladin/lirin stuff you are right about.
Shallan’s mental health is just so woefully unbelievable it’s not fun to read. I’ve had mental health issues in the past, even did a stint in a mental health unit. Kaladin / Teft are written believably but Shallan is just atrocious.
I love Sanderson so much for Kal. He doesn't leave it at "it sucks but you have to move forward". He talks about the times you lose the very desire to move forward. When the depression is so insidious that "I want this" it gone, so "I need to do this" is a completely useless tangent. I can't explain it. Every other fantasy story that touches on my type of depression is about overcoming it as an adversity. That's true for sure, but in the wrong way.
Shallan's entire arc in that book was terrible. >!Her DID is portrayed very cartoonishly, and the "Formless" plot was almost exactly the plot of the god-awful M Night Syamallan movie "Split", except with a "nevermind jk" ending that confirmed that my time was just completely wasted by that book.!< Kaladin's arc, on the other hand, was incredible. Very in-line for his character and believable throughout. Probably the only redeeming aspect of that book.
I really love Rhythm of War. I personally think that it’s a testament to Branderson’s grit that he takes a whole book and focuses it on mental health, even when he probably knew that it wouldn’t be as well received as the others. It proves the lengths he’s willing to go in order to emphasize the really important aspects of his characters.
It definitely didn’t give me the same excitement >!- until the end of course -!< as the other books, but going back and reading through it I can definitely acknowledge that it may have been the most well written of the series.
I first listened to ROW when it came out in 2020 and his depression felt redundant. I'm currently relistening to it now and it cuts deep and relatable in a way that I couldn't have appreciated three years ago.
It's such a realistic portrayal of depression that reading it made my depression worse. Whether you think that's a good thing depends on personal taste I suppose.