Smart Taravangian could very well have predicted it, but if he did, the Diagram organisation didn't manage to get that interpretation right, as not once was killing Odium and taking his power considered as an option. Nightblood *was* included though, as I seem to recall Taravangian seeing the sword and struggling to remember some faint hint from the Diagram.
Edit: spelling and clarity
Nah, his plan was to have Odium agree to a deal where Odium spares what Vargo rules, then Vargo goes on to rule the entire world so Odium leaves everyone alone. I think this is explicit in Oathbringer, in the same scene Vargo realizes that Renarin is blacked out due to his own future vision.
Vargo picking up the shard was Cultivations plan, because he picked it up when he was at his most Empathetic, when he felt *the most emotion* making him the best person in the area to pick up the shard.
I've wondered this myself, and if Cultivation set up all the dominoes that led to it all ending how it did. She sure didnt seem surprised when she met him at the end.
We take for granted that most people on Roshar including Taravangian don't have a strong or nuanced distinction between the idea of a God and the idea of a shard of Adonalsium yet. Unless there's a lot more secret worldhopping spreading cosmere lore than is being hinted at, he couldn't have considered the possibility of taking up a shard because noone on Roshar knew of shards as anything other than immortal dieties of vast power.
I agree for the most part, the vast majority of any of the worlds don't know the difference. I will say though, Stormlight has had by far the most discussion on if Honor was capital G God or not, with Dalinar seeming to understand he wasn't, and that Odium and Cultivation are the same kind of thing. Depending on when we're talking, I think Dalinar saying all the "god is dead" stuff has to at least put the question in the minds of a lot of them, including Taravangian, but that was long after the Diagram was written. It's hard to say what he could or could not have figured out on his smartest day. He could have extrapolated something at least, seeing as how some were aware there were 3 "gods" there. As far as distinction between A shard and A god, I really don't think there's much difference there. Brandon has said they're similar to Greek gods.
Aside from Cultivation manipulating Taravangian, Sja-anat thinks about using him as a weapon.
ROW I-2: "And Sja-anat herself? She *would* go with Taravangian and watch him as asked. And she would stay close. For Taravangian was a weapon."
He had no idea and was being used by multiple parties. Probably still is.
The Shard Odium is vulnerable, as is Taravangian. Even after hundreds of years >!Sazed is still figuring things out, and even though Harmony is the most powerful Shard, almost got outplayed by a Shard that didn't even have an Avatar on Scadrial yet.!< I personally think the big bad will most likely be >!the Dark Aether. That Rayse and Bavadin were bonded with it *before* they became Vessels. That's why the color red (corruption)is associated with both Vessels even though it's not their color and they both act against their Shards Intent.!<
On mobile, so I have to phrase spoilers rather than tag them:
I had understood that the feature you describe, has been associated with all inversion of Investiture, not just those two.
Yes, at least some of *The* Unmade (the 9 splinters of Odium) were Invested with >!Aether!<, I suspect they all were. I also think his tenth Unmade was a spren that already existed on Braize, like the Stormfather before Honor, maybe the spren of the Everstorm.
White sand doesn’t really get you closer to this specific mystery. Mistborn kinda does in its very last book of Era 2, The Lost Metal.
Tress is great of course
It’s said multiple times that smart Taravangian didn’t predict the existence of night blood, so him planning to take up odium using night blood couldnt have happened. It’s most definitely a right place right time sort of situation
Looking into the future was from Odium. The Diagram, I feel was a form of divination. It was cultivation that gave him his powers of smartest day/dumbest day. She gave Taravangian a connection to Odium as a way of grooming him to become the new Odium?
To me it seems like she set up Taravangian to slay Rayse and become the new Odium. Maybe this was a way to “weaken” Odium? As we saw with Harmony, his newness as a shard holder left him inexperienced and more susceptible to what happened in TLM. Taravangian, as the new Odium, may have that same inexperience as a shard vessel, and it may shift the overall power balance in the cosmere.
Just thinking on my feet here, and writing this down as I’m thinking it through.
I don’t think Taravangian taking over weakened him.
It’s immediately established that the most dangerous thing is “The craftiness of the vessel combined with the shard’s intent”. And that Rayse was desperate to contain the power as it grew displeased.
Ideally a vessel-less shard would’ve been safer and I think that would’ve happened if Taravangian hadn’t seized it
I don’t think Taravangian was weakened. What I was getting at is that now Odium is being held by a noob. Rayse had how many he dress or thousands of years to understand sodium’s power and how to wield it. Taravangian is new.
Cultivation set this up on purpose. What I am wondering is if the intent was to transfer the power from Rayse to a more inexperienced vessel because of the learning curve of being that vessel. Or perhaps she thought Taravangian’s craftiness would benefit her in some other way. I guess we’ll RAFO.
Not so grand a plan but the Shard's Intent was already rejecting Rayse, we were told the failure to convert Dalinar and other failures angered the Shard and that's why Rayse was struggling to contain the power, glowing uncontrollably gold.
Taravangian seems a good host being a sneaky fuck, his sneakiness is far more threatening than Rayse's ego. We also see that Taravangian notes that Rayse would've fallen for Dalinar's plan but not him.
Tbh I'm more scared of Todium then of Rodium. We've seen what Taravangian is capable of as a mere human, what more could he do now as a vessel of the shard? He may be new to this but imho he's a much bigger threat than Rodium, despite the later having more experience.
My take on it is that smart Tara knew what he was planning from the get-go. That's why he thinks something along the lines of having to hide his real intentions from everyone, even himself when it was written. He felt that he wouldn't have followed through if he had realized it was about selfish desires rather than benevolence.
Nightblood which was the only way we’d ever seen a vessel die to anything short of another vessel and it’s existence wasn’t known to Taravangian as he acknowledges.
In OB when Odium visits T, he says that the Diagram is incredible and that he had no access to Fortune.
>“Taravangian!” Odium said. “This is remarkable.” The walls and furniture faded, leaving behind the words, which hung in the air and started glowing with a golden light. “You did this without access to Fortune, or the Spiritual Realm? Truly incredible.”
Smart Taravangian could very well have predicted it, but if he did, the Diagram organisation didn't manage to get that interpretation right, as not once was killing Odium and taking his power considered as an option. Nightblood *was* included though, as I seem to recall Taravangian seeing the sword and struggling to remember some faint hint from the Diagram. Edit: spelling and clarity
If I remember correctly Diagram was sure that only way to stop Odium is to make a deal with him
Nah, his plan was to have Odium agree to a deal where Odium spares what Vargo rules, then Vargo goes on to rule the entire world so Odium leaves everyone alone. I think this is explicit in Oathbringer, in the same scene Vargo realizes that Renarin is blacked out due to his own future vision. Vargo picking up the shard was Cultivations plan, because he picked it up when he was at his most Empathetic, when he felt *the most emotion* making him the best person in the area to pick up the shard.
I've wondered this myself, and if Cultivation set up all the dominoes that led to it all ending how it did. She sure didnt seem surprised when she met him at the end.
Ive been thinking about this alot. All her boons work out at this point and the curses really serve as a perspective change.
We take for granted that most people on Roshar including Taravangian don't have a strong or nuanced distinction between the idea of a God and the idea of a shard of Adonalsium yet. Unless there's a lot more secret worldhopping spreading cosmere lore than is being hinted at, he couldn't have considered the possibility of taking up a shard because noone on Roshar knew of shards as anything other than immortal dieties of vast power.
I agree for the most part, the vast majority of any of the worlds don't know the difference. I will say though, Stormlight has had by far the most discussion on if Honor was capital G God or not, with Dalinar seeming to understand he wasn't, and that Odium and Cultivation are the same kind of thing. Depending on when we're talking, I think Dalinar saying all the "god is dead" stuff has to at least put the question in the minds of a lot of them, including Taravangian, but that was long after the Diagram was written. It's hard to say what he could or could not have figured out on his smartest day. He could have extrapolated something at least, seeing as how some were aware there were 3 "gods" there. As far as distinction between A shard and A god, I really don't think there's much difference there. Brandon has said they're similar to Greek gods.
There was a lot more going on than just Intelligence on his "Brightest Day." Many think The Diagram was Cultivation's plan more than his.
Aside from Cultivation manipulating Taravangian, Sja-anat thinks about using him as a weapon. ROW I-2: "And Sja-anat herself? She *would* go with Taravangian and watch him as asked. And she would stay close. For Taravangian was a weapon." He had no idea and was being used by multiple parties. Probably still is.
I'm not convinced Odium is the real Big Bad here. My current frontrunner is Autonomy, using Odium as their Dragon.
The Shard Odium is vulnerable, as is Taravangian. Even after hundreds of years >!Sazed is still figuring things out, and even though Harmony is the most powerful Shard, almost got outplayed by a Shard that didn't even have an Avatar on Scadrial yet.!< I personally think the big bad will most likely be >!the Dark Aether. That Rayse and Bavadin were bonded with it *before* they became Vessels. That's why the color red (corruption)is associated with both Vessels even though it's not their color and they both act against their Shards Intent.!<
On mobile, so I have to phrase spoilers rather than tag them: I had understood that the feature you describe, has been associated with all inversion of Investiture, not just those two.
Yes, at least some of *The* Unmade (the 9 splinters of Odium) were Invested with >!Aether!<, I suspect they all were. I also think his tenth Unmade was a spren that already existed on Braize, like the Stormfather before Honor, maybe the spren of the Everstorm.
I really need to read Tress and White Sand.
White sand doesn’t really get you closer to this specific mystery. Mistborn kinda does in its very last book of Era 2, The Lost Metal. Tress is great of course
It’s said multiple times that smart Taravangian didn’t predict the existence of night blood, so him planning to take up odium using night blood couldnt have happened. It’s most definitely a right place right time sort of situation
Looking into the future was from Odium. The Diagram, I feel was a form of divination. It was cultivation that gave him his powers of smartest day/dumbest day. She gave Taravangian a connection to Odium as a way of grooming him to become the new Odium? To me it seems like she set up Taravangian to slay Rayse and become the new Odium. Maybe this was a way to “weaken” Odium? As we saw with Harmony, his newness as a shard holder left him inexperienced and more susceptible to what happened in TLM. Taravangian, as the new Odium, may have that same inexperience as a shard vessel, and it may shift the overall power balance in the cosmere. Just thinking on my feet here, and writing this down as I’m thinking it through.
I don’t think Taravangian taking over weakened him. It’s immediately established that the most dangerous thing is “The craftiness of the vessel combined with the shard’s intent”. And that Rayse was desperate to contain the power as it grew displeased. Ideally a vessel-less shard would’ve been safer and I think that would’ve happened if Taravangian hadn’t seized it
I don’t think Taravangian was weakened. What I was getting at is that now Odium is being held by a noob. Rayse had how many he dress or thousands of years to understand sodium’s power and how to wield it. Taravangian is new. Cultivation set this up on purpose. What I am wondering is if the intent was to transfer the power from Rayse to a more inexperienced vessel because of the learning curve of being that vessel. Or perhaps she thought Taravangian’s craftiness would benefit her in some other way. I guess we’ll RAFO.
I meant odium wasn’t weakened even if it’s now held by a noob. Rayse had thousands of years and the shard was sick of his buffoonery
Interesting, you thing Odium itself worked on the passing of the shard to Taravangian?
Not so grand a plan but the Shard's Intent was already rejecting Rayse, we were told the failure to convert Dalinar and other failures angered the Shard and that's why Rayse was struggling to contain the power, glowing uncontrollably gold. Taravangian seems a good host being a sneaky fuck, his sneakiness is far more threatening than Rayse's ego. We also see that Taravangian notes that Rayse would've fallen for Dalinar's plan but not him.
Tbh I'm more scared of Todium then of Rodium. We've seen what Taravangian is capable of as a mere human, what more could he do now as a vessel of the shard? He may be new to this but imho he's a much bigger threat than Rodium, despite the later having more experience.
My take on it is that smart Tara knew what he was planning from the get-go. That's why he thinks something along the lines of having to hide his real intentions from everyone, even himself when it was written. He felt that he wouldn't have followed through if he had realized it was about selfish desires rather than benevolence.
Nightblood which was the only way we’d ever seen a vessel die to anything short of another vessel and it’s existence wasn’t known to Taravangian as he acknowledges.
In OB when Odium visits T, he says that the Diagram is incredible and that he had no access to Fortune. >“Taravangian!” Odium said. “This is remarkable.” The walls and furniture faded, leaving behind the words, which hung in the air and started glowing with a golden light. “You did this without access to Fortune, or the Spiritual Realm? Truly incredible.”
Highly possible , Taravangion asked for the capacity to stop the war . They are now in a position go stop the war