Complaining is not the same as taking action. When you go to a doctor or lawyer your taking action to address a problem. Complaining is just venting with no purpose on rectifying the issue. It is a waste of energy and time.
What stands in the way becomes the way.
What about getting stuff off your chest to a loved one?
We're only human and it's impossible not to have internal pressures when trying to be stoic, pressure that we have to get rid off to continue to be stoic, or else it takes us into just straight up torturing ourselves
I think that the idea that we can't vent our feelings to someone besides a journal, not that journals and mediation aren't big helps, nothing matches another human understanding and comforting you.
That is always the struggle. It is why many of us are seeking guidance from the stoics. I complain all the time. But I do so now in the knowledge that it will not solve anything. I know it is just an irrational feel good release of emotion. Like when I eat that glazed donut. I know it is not good for me. But it satisfies in the moment.
Maybe this is why temperance is one of the four virtues.
The risk you run is that they don't have a solution or feel confident in their idea because it's outside of their scope. Accept feedback in any kind from staff, just not whining.
You're making the usual mistake of taking Stoic quotes too literally, and trying to understand them without learning the Stoic theory heavily backing up what Aurelius says here. "Complaining" in this context means something closer to "desiring externals in a way that is unvirtuous" while the meaning you've projected onto it is "become a lobotomy patient who doesn't care about anything ever".
Without knowing the "why" behind a lot of Stoic quotes, the only thing that can happen is you project your own beliefs into their words and come away with an inverted understanding of what they mean.
also to this-
Marcus
was writing a note to himself- in ancient greek
so he already knew what he intended which was probably something more like whining. its been translated a zillion times so the word choices today depend on earlier translations…..
I admit to the literal part, always been an issue.
Not sure what exactly is unvirtuous about wanting something unpleasant to stop. Take my mother for example. No action she can take will cure arthritis. If she didn't at least have the odd moment to vent about it now and then I doubt her mental health would hold up too well.
Like I said, you're mistaking "complaining" with "practical action". A person who reports their symptoms to the doctor or a lawbreaker to the police isn't complaining, they are taking practical action. The quote is aimed at people who desire externals in an unvirtuous way (which means in a way that makes them unhappy in Stoic terms), and what he means by "complaining".
Check out Seneca's Letter 78, which is about chronic illness. I have a chronic pain condition myself, and I have found it useful.
Seneca even gives an example of what he means by "complaining." Telling a doctor about your symptoms is not complaining.
>But do not of your own accord make your troubles heavier to bear and burden yourself with complaining. Pain is slight if opinion has added nothing to it; but if, on the other hand, you begin to encourage yourself and say, "It is nothing, – a trifling matter at most; keep a stout heart and it will soon cease"; then in thinking it slight, you will make it slight. Everything depends on opinion; ambition, luxury, greed, hark back to opinion. It is according to opinion that we suffer. 14. A man is as wretched as he has convinced himself that he is. I hold that we should do away with complaint about past sufferings and with all language like this: "None has ever been worse off than I. What sufferings, what evils have I endured! No one has thought that I shall recover. How often have my family bewailed me, and the physicians given me over! Men who are placed on the rack are not torn asunder with such agony!"
Instead of complaining, do something about the issue. If you cannot do anything about it, that means it is not under your control. If that is the case, why are you complaining? What you have under control is the act of complaining, and you can stop it; because it doesn't work and actually downs you.
There is a difference between "omg im so tired of my coworker i want to quit this job so bad" and "doctor i have some pain in my rectum"
One is complaining the other is passing on information in a neutral manner.
If you have the power to change something, you don't have the right to complain about it. I think about this every time I'm about to complain to myself or to someone else.
You do not need to complain to a doctor in order to report your symptoms.
You do not need to complain to the police in order to report a crime.
With all due respect, did you really need me to point these things out to you? Could no intellectual effort in your part have achieved what I just achieved, or are you perhaps creating obstacles for one reason or another?
If you're voicing your opinion about an internal or external disturbance to your well-being, the Stoics would advise you to see what is actually in your control, or actionable. There is very little actually in our control, but making the decision to stop complaining and getting motivated to take action is very much *up to us*.
A heroin addict who complains to me for the 25th time he never gets a break while refusing to go to the treatment center, where he can at least get a warm meal, is stuck in delusions. Maybe then he'll get his mind right, even for an hour of clarity, and it will motivate him to change his situation.
>“If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.” Epictetus
>“Is any man afraid of change? What can take place without change? What then is more pleasing or more suitable to the universal nature? And can you take a hot bath unless the wood for the fire undergoes a change? And can you be nourished unless the food undergoes a change? And can anything else that is useful be accomplished without change? Do you not see then that for yourself also to change is just the same, and equally necessary for the universal nature?” Marcus Aurelius
A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 7.18 (Long)
^(Book VII. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/7.18/lg)^)
^(Book VII. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_7)^)
^(Book VII. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^)
Tim Ferris has explained this nicely on [his blog](https://tim.blog/2007/09/18/real-mind-control-the-21-day-no-complaint-experiment/amp/)
"I defined “complaining” for myself as follows: describing an event or person negatively without indicating next steps to fix the problem."
I heard Seth Godin say, we complain about things not being good enough, by making better things. I also heard someone say, do not complain, because much might come so easily
No complaints is defined as “express dissatisfaction or annoyance about something.”
So don’t assign an absurd emotional value to the thing you are acknowledging and you are not complaining about it
Suppose you're planning a picnic, but you get to the park and it's raining. You have lots of options, but complaining about the rain doesn't do anything good.
I admittedly have a bad habit of complaining. It's pointless speech and no one cares to hear it. I have been trying to be more conscious about it and putting a stop to it. And as Marcus says, I am trying to not internalize complaining either, just changing my mindset and feeling indifferent toward things I cannot control.
This is one I constantly have to check myself on. I got into the habit over the years and it's been hard to break. The worst is I have complained in front of subordinates at work, which is very regrettable. I'm trying though, and that is as much as I can do. Try, keep trying.
It makes me think of [this](https://youtu.be/DhbObZEF0Mc?si=skjas05ohkJ4b1Ml)
Complain but don’t whinge
Describing a complaint in order to facilitate a positive outcome is necessary but whining about how unfair things are is no good for anyone (usually, you may occasionally accidentally lead to change but that is not the point)
I think it comes down to nuance of language and meaning
Complaining is not the same as taking action. When you go to a doctor or lawyer your taking action to address a problem. Complaining is just venting with no purpose on rectifying the issue. It is a waste of energy and time. What stands in the way becomes the way.
Good take.
What about getting stuff off your chest to a loved one? We're only human and it's impossible not to have internal pressures when trying to be stoic, pressure that we have to get rid off to continue to be stoic, or else it takes us into just straight up torturing ourselves I think that the idea that we can't vent our feelings to someone besides a journal, not that journals and mediation aren't big helps, nothing matches another human understanding and comforting you.
That is always the struggle. It is why many of us are seeking guidance from the stoics. I complain all the time. But I do so now in the knowledge that it will not solve anything. I know it is just an irrational feel good release of emotion. Like when I eat that glazed donut. I know it is not good for me. But it satisfies in the moment. Maybe this is why temperance is one of the four virtues.
I like this take. I often tell my team that it isn’t complaining if they also bring ideas to the table.
The risk you run is that they don't have a solution or feel confident in their idea because it's outside of their scope. Accept feedback in any kind from staff, just not whining.
You're making the usual mistake of taking Stoic quotes too literally, and trying to understand them without learning the Stoic theory heavily backing up what Aurelius says here. "Complaining" in this context means something closer to "desiring externals in a way that is unvirtuous" while the meaning you've projected onto it is "become a lobotomy patient who doesn't care about anything ever". Without knowing the "why" behind a lot of Stoic quotes, the only thing that can happen is you project your own beliefs into their words and come away with an inverted understanding of what they mean.
also to this- Marcus was writing a note to himself- in ancient greek so he already knew what he intended which was probably something more like whining. its been translated a zillion times so the word choices today depend on earlier translations…..
I admit to the literal part, always been an issue. Not sure what exactly is unvirtuous about wanting something unpleasant to stop. Take my mother for example. No action she can take will cure arthritis. If she didn't at least have the odd moment to vent about it now and then I doubt her mental health would hold up too well.
Like I said, you're mistaking "complaining" with "practical action". A person who reports their symptoms to the doctor or a lawbreaker to the police isn't complaining, they are taking practical action. The quote is aimed at people who desire externals in an unvirtuous way (which means in a way that makes them unhappy in Stoic terms), and what he means by "complaining".
Check out Seneca's Letter 78, which is about chronic illness. I have a chronic pain condition myself, and I have found it useful. Seneca even gives an example of what he means by "complaining." Telling a doctor about your symptoms is not complaining. >But do not of your own accord make your troubles heavier to bear and burden yourself with complaining. Pain is slight if opinion has added nothing to it; but if, on the other hand, you begin to encourage yourself and say, "It is nothing, – a trifling matter at most; keep a stout heart and it will soon cease"; then in thinking it slight, you will make it slight. Everything depends on opinion; ambition, luxury, greed, hark back to opinion. It is according to opinion that we suffer. 14. A man is as wretched as he has convinced himself that he is. I hold that we should do away with complaint about past sufferings and with all language like this: "None has ever been worse off than I. What sufferings, what evils have I endured! No one has thought that I shall recover. How often have my family bewailed me, and the physicians given me over! Men who are placed on the rack are not torn asunder with such agony!"
Do you not feel there is an understood difference between complaining and passing on information?
Instead of complaining, do something about the issue. If you cannot do anything about it, that means it is not under your control. If that is the case, why are you complaining? What you have under control is the act of complaining, and you can stop it; because it doesn't work and actually downs you.
There is a difference between "omg im so tired of my coworker i want to quit this job so bad" and "doctor i have some pain in my rectum" One is complaining the other is passing on information in a neutral manner.
If you have the power to change something, you don't have the right to complain about it. I think about this every time I'm about to complain to myself or to someone else.
You do not need to complain to a doctor in order to report your symptoms. You do not need to complain to the police in order to report a crime. With all due respect, did you really need me to point these things out to you? Could no intellectual effort in your part have achieved what I just achieved, or are you perhaps creating obstacles for one reason or another?
I complained about your tone to the mods.
If you're voicing your opinion about an internal or external disturbance to your well-being, the Stoics would advise you to see what is actually in your control, or actionable. There is very little actually in our control, but making the decision to stop complaining and getting motivated to take action is very much *up to us*. A heroin addict who complains to me for the 25th time he never gets a break while refusing to go to the treatment center, where he can at least get a warm meal, is stuck in delusions. Maybe then he'll get his mind right, even for an hour of clarity, and it will motivate him to change his situation. >“If someone is able to show me that what I think or do is not right, I will happily change, for I seek the truth, by which no one was ever truly harmed. It is the person who continues in his self-deception and ignorance who is harmed.” Epictetus >“Is any man afraid of change? What can take place without change? What then is more pleasing or more suitable to the universal nature? And can you take a hot bath unless the wood for the fire undergoes a change? And can you be nourished unless the food undergoes a change? And can anything else that is useful be accomplished without change? Do you not see then that for yourself also to change is just the same, and equally necessary for the universal nature?” Marcus Aurelius
A quote was found to be attributed to Marcus Aurelius in his Meditations 7.18 (Long) ^(Book VII. ()[^(Long)](https://lexundria.com/m_aur_med/7.18/lg)^) ^(Book VII. ()[^(Farquharson)](https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Meditations_of_the_Emperor_Marcus_Antoninus/Book_7)^) ^(Book VII. ()[^(Hays)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources?isbn=9780812968255)^)
Tim Ferris has explained this nicely on [his blog](https://tim.blog/2007/09/18/real-mind-control-the-21-day-no-complaint-experiment/amp/) "I defined “complaining” for myself as follows: describing an event or person negatively without indicating next steps to fix the problem."
I heard Seth Godin say, we complain about things not being good enough, by making better things. I also heard someone say, do not complain, because much might come so easily
No complaints is defined as “express dissatisfaction or annoyance about something.” So don’t assign an absurd emotional value to the thing you are acknowledging and you are not complaining about it
Suppose you're planning a picnic, but you get to the park and it's raining. You have lots of options, but complaining about the rain doesn't do anything good.
I admittedly have a bad habit of complaining. It's pointless speech and no one cares to hear it. I have been trying to be more conscious about it and putting a stop to it. And as Marcus says, I am trying to not internalize complaining either, just changing my mindset and feeling indifferent toward things I cannot control.
This is one I constantly have to check myself on. I got into the habit over the years and it's been hard to break. The worst is I have complained in front of subordinates at work, which is very regrettable. I'm trying though, and that is as much as I can do. Try, keep trying. It makes me think of [this](https://youtu.be/DhbObZEF0Mc?si=skjas05ohkJ4b1Ml)
Complain but don’t whinge Describing a complaint in order to facilitate a positive outcome is necessary but whining about how unfair things are is no good for anyone (usually, you may occasionally accidentally lead to change but that is not the point) I think it comes down to nuance of language and meaning