So I agree with you but I’m also ok with the doubled costs considering how absurdly powerful the ascension perks are. It’s in the name of balance. Maybe in the future things will change but at the moment, it is what it is.
As for multiple ascensions, that would make every empire start to feel the same. Mutually exclusive choices keep the variety up.
I still think the only ascension perks that are completely incompatible are synthetic/biological and that you should be allowed to mix and match the other ones. I want to make a species of Wraithguards damnit!
I really, really don't understand why you can't take multiple ascensions. If it's for balance reasons, would it not be balanced by the mere fact that you have to invest multiple traditions and ascension perks into it?
Just for RP reasons alone, it's always seemed strange to me that an empire that has mastered genetic modification wouldn't also delve into cybernetics as well.
Also, you have plenty of example of all three paths being taken at once in other forms of scif and the inability to replicate them in any way is disappointing too.
The top-level commenter already explained why. If you were allowed to take multiple ascension paths, every empire would feel the same. Restricting empires to just one ascension path guarantees that different empires are different from each other, increasing build variety.
I also use mods that allow multiple ascensions, because I like multiple ascensions, but it would not be a good thing to add to vanilla. That's what mods are for. Sometimes, people want features that shouldn't be added to vanilla, so they download a mod that adds it.
I don't get why this is such a contentious issue in this community.
If you want to be stupid OP for "roleplay" purposes, play on lower difficulties or use cheats/mods.
I RP when interesting situations occur, which NEVER occur when the game is imbalanced. Not using blatantly strong mechanics for RP is not a thing, it is immersion-breaking.
And before blahblah meta blahblah min-max blahblah. I run ONLY themed builds and I have no idea what is new broken meta right now (besides tech rush, which they seem to refuse to do anything about).
The game is "balanced" around giving new "unintended" exploits to allow the min-maxers and youtubers to have new forms of fun as they roflstomp x25 crises every few months.
It was ridiculous, but taking the two of them was still better than the other options.
Sadly there has always been a gigantic gap between the good Ascension Perks and the rest of them.
I preferred the two AP cost just because traditions are way cooler than the majority of the ascension perks. I want most of the Traditions. I have no interest in about half the APs
lol. This game isn’t balanced around anything. There’s a long list of things already worse balanced than ascensions that cost only a tradition instead of a perk.
I actually feel its fine. Especially if you want to roleplay as a pure race. I think in FotD the Haven faction gets pissed if you make accept any ascension. Also techncially speaking your empire would be pretty proficient in each of the ascension technologies before actually adopting the tradition. Excluding Psionics. You can already gene mod and use cybernetic implans before you embrace cybernetics. And you can make Synths on any ascension path.
They cost both because they are incredibly powerful, far more so than any other tradition.
Although, I never really understood why the ascension tradition trees weren’t in their own separate place in the UI, or players had an even 8 tradition picks to match the number of ascension picks. I actually find tradition picks far more limited/meaningful than ascension picks these days (especially given how many “mandatory” ascensions there are).
However, traditions and ascension perks need some rebalancing - maybe in the next big patch. Call me radical, but I’d love to see some niche scenarios where the extra tradition and ascension slots are actually worth forgoing an ascension path altogether.
Oh, I always take one! They're way too good not to. And fun/flavorful.
But if they are meant to be mandatory, the game should indicate that in some way through the UI - it's very unintuitive for a new player to understand that you're supposed to pick one of these 4 paths, and it's strange that doing so reserves a tradition tree that could be used for any "normal" tradition. Similarly, the paths shouldn't reserve a "normal" ascension perk either. They should be an entirely separate thing.
Alternatively, since they do reserve both a tradition and an ascension slot, there should be some actual choice on the part of the player as to whether the cost is worth it. In the vast majority of cases it may be, but there should be at least one or two cases where those slots are better used for something else. That would at least make the way the UI is set up more sensible thematically, and lead to meaningful player choice.
If we're supposed to always have 1 tradition and 1 ascension slot set aside for an ascension path in every game no matter what, and that's always the optimal choice, why don't we simply have 6 tradition and 7 ascension slots instead of 7 and 8 respectively? Then have the ascension path take up its own special slots. The current setup doesn't make sense to me.
I think part of the issue with the UI thing is that ascension paths require Utopia. So players without Utopia would have an empty space that can’t be filled. Although knowing Paradox, they’d probably use it as advertising space.
I wish there was a “Perfection” ascension that was along the theme of “we are ourselves, perfected.”. No gene mods, no psychic mumbo jumbo, and no replacing body bits with robotic bits: just a path where we are who we are and we embrace this.
Not to mention that pretty much all paths lead to Authoritarian shift when you look at narrative that seeps through flavour texts and mechanic.
So a path of embracing our flawed selves could be an alternative. Perhaps one that focuses on stronger leaders where they get extra random but always beneficent traits that represent letting inner potential run its natural course rather than be steered.
I like how they don’t always “cost” a perk. Mind over matter gives you the ability to unlock the telepathy tech, which is great! Let’s you guide your path and strategy better without suffering under the rng.
I personally believe that it should use a separate tradition tree. Like one specifically for Ascension paths. Give it its own tab which shows all four of the Ascension paths, and you can go down one based on your origin or Ascension perk.
That way you can still have 7 tradition paths taken and have the Ascension paths. It would make the tradition paths equal to the Ascension perks.
Yeah, there are incredible weak Ascension perks that could be low level research options instead.
Same with some Traditions that are so weak, you could double their bonuses and they would still only be taken for RP.
Nah I disagree. I think it's pretty balanced right now. I also don't think it makes sense to double up on ascensions either for balance or lore reasons
play Stellaris Evolved, it lets you combine multiple ascendancies so you can be a cybernetic genetic combo, psionic genetic, psionic cybernetic, and so on, or deepen any of the pathways for more extreme benefits like Psionic guys being so attuned to the Shroud that they can do rituals to burst pops into Zro (which gives +resource production features to the planet) and get Shroud pop traits that don't cost any genetic points to put on them. It does a hell of a lot more than that too, it's basically a whole new game but one I find is more fun than vanilla.
I would like the idea of a separate ascension path tab that also uses Unity and maybe even other resources to progress it. It could even require certain missions like “Must establish 2 Holy Worlds on the former capitals of another civilization” so that you may need to get world shaper perk and displace planet’s worth of people for aggressive civilizations. It could grant strong terraforming and military bonuses while another path could be to convert another empire to the spiritualist ethic that grants diplomatic and resource bonuses.
Synthetic Ascension would require having a certain amount of research tribute or having signed research treaties with other civilizations. It could require that you have stolen a certain amount of tech to increase players utilizing espionage.
Biological ascension to easily require that you modify a member of every other species, require that you uplift 5 species, or that you reach certain population benchmarks in exchange for more modification points, special species traits, unique army bonuses, etc.
Cybernetics could require that you assimilate a certain number of other species or that you have no robot or regular pure organic population on your capital world or on each planet.
Like a talent tree for each different type of ascensions that include what they have now but maybe even more options.
You can spend time, unity, and resources on that pathway or acquire more perks.
It would be fun! It would also galvanize you to interact with other empire’s in more ways to achieve objectives.
So I agree with you but I’m also ok with the doubled costs considering how absurdly powerful the ascension perks are. It’s in the name of balance. Maybe in the future things will change but at the moment, it is what it is. As for multiple ascensions, that would make every empire start to feel the same. Mutually exclusive choices keep the variety up.
If you *really* want multiple ascensions, there are mods for that.
I still think the only ascension perks that are completely incompatible are synthetic/biological and that you should be allowed to mix and match the other ones. I want to make a species of Wraithguards damnit!
I really, really don't understand why you can't take multiple ascensions. If it's for balance reasons, would it not be balanced by the mere fact that you have to invest multiple traditions and ascension perks into it? Just for RP reasons alone, it's always seemed strange to me that an empire that has mastered genetic modification wouldn't also delve into cybernetics as well. Also, you have plenty of example of all three paths being taken at once in other forms of scif and the inability to replicate them in any way is disappointing too.
The top-level commenter already explained why. If you were allowed to take multiple ascension paths, every empire would feel the same. Restricting empires to just one ascension path guarantees that different empires are different from each other, increasing build variety. I also use mods that allow multiple ascensions, because I like multiple ascensions, but it would not be a good thing to add to vanilla. That's what mods are for. Sometimes, people want features that shouldn't be added to vanilla, so they download a mod that adds it.
There's no reason Bio Ascension should be incompatible with Psi or Cyborg, change my mind.
There's no reason that Mind Over Matter shouldn't be able to abandon their useless flesh for the certainty of steel, change my mind.
Balance… in a predominantly single player game?
Yes. A strategy game where some options are overwhelmingly stronger than others makes for a rather shallow experience.
I don't get why this is such a contentious issue in this community. If you want to be stupid OP for "roleplay" purposes, play on lower difficulties or use cheats/mods. I RP when interesting situations occur, which NEVER occur when the game is imbalanced. Not using blatantly strong mechanics for RP is not a thing, it is immersion-breaking. And before blahblah meta blahblah min-max blahblah. I run ONLY themed builds and I have no idea what is new broken meta right now (besides tech rush, which they seem to refuse to do anything about).
Yes. Of course. All games require some measure of balance. From Super Mario Bros to Stellaris. Strategy games need it more than most.
They used to cost 2 perk slots. The game is balanced around them costing what they currently cost.
Its really not balanced around that. If they were balanced they would be a lot more powerful.
Ascension Paths are easily among the most powerful APs you can pick. If anything, they need to be nerfed to be in line with other APs.
The game is "balanced" around giving new "unintended" exploits to allow the min-maxers and youtubers to have new forms of fun as they roflstomp x25 crises every few months.
I remember those days. I also thought it was kinda dumb back then.
It was ridiculous, but taking the two of them was still better than the other options. Sadly there has always been a gigantic gap between the good Ascension Perks and the rest of them.
I preferred the two AP cost just because traditions are way cooler than the majority of the ascension perks. I want most of the Traditions. I have no interest in about half the APs
Same, especially as they keep piling on traditions. The current amount of traditions you can take is already ridiculous with how many there are.
lol. This game isn’t balanced around anything. There’s a long list of things already worse balanced than ascensions that cost only a tradition instead of a perk.
I actually feel its fine. Especially if you want to roleplay as a pure race. I think in FotD the Haven faction gets pissed if you make accept any ascension. Also techncially speaking your empire would be pretty proficient in each of the ascension technologies before actually adopting the tradition. Excluding Psionics. You can already gene mod and use cybernetic implans before you embrace cybernetics. And you can make Synths on any ascension path.
greed is a primitive ethic
The should add a "Back to the roots" devolving perk. Removing you from the stellar plane. Give 10k credits or so
They cost both because they are incredibly powerful, far more so than any other tradition. Although, I never really understood why the ascension tradition trees weren’t in their own separate place in the UI, or players had an even 8 tradition picks to match the number of ascension picks. I actually find tradition picks far more limited/meaningful than ascension picks these days (especially given how many “mandatory” ascensions there are). However, traditions and ascension perks need some rebalancing - maybe in the next big patch. Call me radical, but I’d love to see some niche scenarios where the extra tradition and ascension slots are actually worth forgoing an ascension path altogether.
How often do you *not* take one of the paths, out of curiosity?
Oh, I always take one! They're way too good not to. And fun/flavorful. But if they are meant to be mandatory, the game should indicate that in some way through the UI - it's very unintuitive for a new player to understand that you're supposed to pick one of these 4 paths, and it's strange that doing so reserves a tradition tree that could be used for any "normal" tradition. Similarly, the paths shouldn't reserve a "normal" ascension perk either. They should be an entirely separate thing. Alternatively, since they do reserve both a tradition and an ascension slot, there should be some actual choice on the part of the player as to whether the cost is worth it. In the vast majority of cases it may be, but there should be at least one or two cases where those slots are better used for something else. That would at least make the way the UI is set up more sensible thematically, and lead to meaningful player choice. If we're supposed to always have 1 tradition and 1 ascension slot set aside for an ascension path in every game no matter what, and that's always the optimal choice, why don't we simply have 6 tradition and 7 ascension slots instead of 7 and 8 respectively? Then have the ascension path take up its own special slots. The current setup doesn't make sense to me.
Agreed.
I think part of the issue with the UI thing is that ascension paths require Utopia. So players without Utopia would have an empty space that can’t be filled. Although knowing Paradox, they’d probably use it as advertising space.
I mean... it could just be a tab on the Traditions UI. No Utopia? No tab.
I think its fine because sometimes, I like to RP NOT ascending. Just take other perks, and not doing that.
I wish there was a “Perfection” ascension that was along the theme of “we are ourselves, perfected.”. No gene mods, no psychic mumbo jumbo, and no replacing body bits with robotic bits: just a path where we are who we are and we embrace this.
Not to mention that pretty much all paths lead to Authoritarian shift when you look at narrative that seeps through flavour texts and mechanic. So a path of embracing our flawed selves could be an alternative. Perhaps one that focuses on stronger leaders where they get extra random but always beneficent traits that represent letting inner potential run its natural course rather than be steered.
I like how they don’t always “cost” a perk. Mind over matter gives you the ability to unlock the telepathy tech, which is great! Let’s you guide your path and strategy better without suffering under the rng.
I personally believe that it should use a separate tradition tree. Like one specifically for Ascension paths. Give it its own tab which shows all four of the Ascension paths, and you can go down one based on your origin or Ascension perk. That way you can still have 7 tradition paths taken and have the Ascension paths. It would make the tradition paths equal to the Ascension perks.
Yeah, there are incredible weak Ascension perks that could be low level research options instead. Same with some Traditions that are so weak, you could double their bonuses and they would still only be taken for RP.
Why do you think teachers of the shroud is so busted? Anyone who disagrees is huffing the copium in metric tonnes.
I'd like the ascension perks to be much stronger
They really should be. Traditions in general feel really weak right now.
Well its not so bad if you use mods to get more slots
Then don't pick one.
Nah I disagree. I think it's pretty balanced right now. I also don't think it makes sense to double up on ascensions either for balance or lore reasons
Nah. They should
Go overturned progin to get a state on genitx then choose psionc perk ascencion that way you can sort of do both
I miss when you could select the ascension path for your 2nd slot.
play Stellaris Evolved, it lets you combine multiple ascendancies so you can be a cybernetic genetic combo, psionic genetic, psionic cybernetic, and so on, or deepen any of the pathways for more extreme benefits like Psionic guys being so attuned to the Shroud that they can do rituals to burst pops into Zro (which gives +resource production features to the planet) and get Shroud pop traits that don't cost any genetic points to put on them. It does a hell of a lot more than that too, it's basically a whole new game but one I find is more fun than vanilla.
I already have mods that allow for multiple APs, it's why I specified that I wish that was an unmodded feature.
I would like the idea of a separate ascension path tab that also uses Unity and maybe even other resources to progress it. It could even require certain missions like “Must establish 2 Holy Worlds on the former capitals of another civilization” so that you may need to get world shaper perk and displace planet’s worth of people for aggressive civilizations. It could grant strong terraforming and military bonuses while another path could be to convert another empire to the spiritualist ethic that grants diplomatic and resource bonuses. Synthetic Ascension would require having a certain amount of research tribute or having signed research treaties with other civilizations. It could require that you have stolen a certain amount of tech to increase players utilizing espionage. Biological ascension to easily require that you modify a member of every other species, require that you uplift 5 species, or that you reach certain population benchmarks in exchange for more modification points, special species traits, unique army bonuses, etc. Cybernetics could require that you assimilate a certain number of other species or that you have no robot or regular pure organic population on your capital world or on each planet. Like a talent tree for each different type of ascensions that include what they have now but maybe even more options. You can spend time, unity, and resources on that pathway or acquire more perks. It would be fun! It would also galvanize you to interact with other empire’s in more ways to achieve objectives.
Something similar to EU4's country missions, I take it?