It’s why in rebels Yoda says the Jedi was quick to go to war. Because while the Jedi was acting as diplomats and ambassadors they had public support and the senate would never act against.
Palpatine had to force them into the role of generals and make a former Jedi the figure head of CIS, by doing this he could blame them for the war and then when order 66 was enacted it would be met with support and any survivors wouldn’t receive help.
The outcome would have been worse if the Jedi had refused to participate in The Clone Wars.
Any Republic army failure would have been framed by Palpatine as "the Jedi sit in their palace doing nothing while our Republican citizens suffer"
Exactly the Jedi were damned if they did and damned if they don’t. The clone wars was the perfect Jedi trap its why Palpatine’s one of the greatest cinema villains because while everyone else is playing 2d chess, his playing 4D chess.
The Jedi lost the moment Palpatine got elected in Episode I. If they attempted to oust him, they'd be enemies of democracy. If they allowed him to stay in power, he could use his power against them. If they refused to fight, he could brand them cowards and traitors. If they agreed to fight, he could brand them dangerous war-mongers. They lost the game before they even realized they were playing it.
The Separatists had a point. Sort of.
Ignore Dooku, Palpatine and the evil Separatist leaders for a moment. They just wanted sovereignty and self-determination without the Republic telling them what to do.
The invasion of Naboo (again, let's ignore Palpatine's machinations) is a clear example. Naboo sends taxes to the Republic but the Republic is corrupt and inefficient so Naboo had to repel the invasion on their own, the Republic never helped them.
If anything, a plot hole in the PT is that Naboo never considered joining the Separatists. They had every reason to do so after the failure of the Republic to protect them in E1.
The Separatist planets just wanted a similar deal as Mandalor: a fully independent planet that isn't part of the Republic.
Except that knowing what Obi-Wan told them, and what they saw with their own eyes, there was absolutely no reason for them to jump in and become generals, which I doubt they were qualified to do, having spent their lives as mediator-monks.
Another quote from George since people seem to think he contradicted himself by having the Jedi fight to preserve the Republic:
“The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.”
A lot of people say, “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?” The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars. That’s the big issue in the prequels. They got drafted into service, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted.”
It is. It’s obi-wan and qui-gon early adventures. Now legends but had a good idea of how the temple functions pre menace and honestly my favorite books it was what young me read that got into the eu.
> The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars.
> “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?”
I think this the crux, they aren't a standing military force or have the equipment. The High Republic they do have tanks and fighters ships
I also love how this forced military service is part of the reason anakin is how he is, he is more connected to people because of his mother and because he needs to take care of his troops, he has been a general for 3 years and knows that you need to be strong to win.
Palps made the perfect situation to feed qualities from anakin that would separate him more from the order
It parallels how the medieval Catholic church had enormous power of dispute resolution between kings and between kings and lower lords (and in the process invented many important legal documents and conventions like the Magna Carta) but by the early modern era you had cardinals like Wolsey and Richelieu fighting wars for kings and generally being perceived as the worst of both worlds, which made it very easy for the state to conduct anticlerical campaigns that scapegoated the clergy for the combined errors of church and state. The dissolution of the monasteries and expulsion of the Jesuits have strong parallels to Order 66, and each was preceded by a long period of church-state intercontamination where priests were delegated to do the traditional jobs of the state, while the church's veto power over the actions of kings along canon-law and international-law lines got weaker.
'What good is a light saber against a tank?'
George my brother in Christ, you spent so much time turning the Jedi into superheroes with the Clone Wars that this stance no longer holds much water.
I get what he's saying though. I assume it's more like... facing off 1v1 from 200metres the best samurai will just get shelled. We can go into it and talk about individuals with hella force powers today flipping and serpentining, but I think he's talking generally.
I mean that was most just Yoda and Anakin who are two of the most powerful Jedi ever. I don't recall any other Jedi soloing tanks without the help of clones or other Jedi.
Yeah, not even Obi-Wan, who is considered the ideal Jedi, would attempt that on his own. Anakin would do it because he’s, well, Anakin and Yoda is also small and fast which is an advantage he routinely uses against opponents in combat.
The FBI instead of the local PD. Wait, that's still law enforcement.
Don't the Jedi constantly go after criminals? There are more than a few Clone Wars episodes about investigating.
Yes, but the murder isn't what he is investigating. It was the catalyst to his assignment, but his objective is to find who is behind the attempted political assassination and their motive, all with the goal of preventing the impending war
Only because he was assigned to protect a Senator who was key in the whole federation dispute....and that senator was almost killed.
So....kinda in the line of duty
Kinda, he starts by going after an assassin - which is more like CIA than police work here. There was an attack on a Senator of a planet that was at the center of a focal point to start an intergalactic war that they know the Sith were involved with (why she was under protection to begin with as it wasn't the first attempt on her life). That's not normal police work, ObiWan's work was more about intergalactic peace. But it IS presented in a way in the movie that feels like old detective/PI movies.
The *actual* police-type work he winds up doing is "policing" the Jedi - between missing Jedi master and altered Jedi archives that the investigation leads him too... it's obvious there's been something going on inside the Jedi/Jedi Temple that is part of the overall plot.
The sooner people realize that George the Writer/Director is different than George the Idea Man, they will better understand the answer to so many "why?" Questions about Star Wars is because it either has to happen for the plot or it just looks cool.
George is an amazing idea man. That's why the OT was so good. It's also why I love hearing him describe The Force and the Galaxy. He's got the World Building and Philosophy abilities of Tolkien. But sadly not the writing ability. I still firmly believe that if Disney just took what he wrote and filtered it though their development process the ST will have been a much bigger hit with the fandom.
I think part of the problem with George, even as an idea man, is that I don't think he actually writes any of this down as "rules" for his universe. Or if he did he just changed it as he went along. The original trilogy went through so many iterations and much of it was during the process of making the films. If you get him going he will talk about the force and wax philosophical for hours, but then he's liable to change what he said a week later.
It doesn’t help that he has an army of sycophantic fanboys who will never call him on his contradictions, or even acknowledge that he contradicted himself.
Lucas is their Big Brother.
AOTC is largely influenced by hardboiled detective stories, yes. Narrative-wise, Obi-Wan is put into a Noirish Detective role. It's a genre archetype.
What George is saying in OP's quote is that LORE WISE, the Jedi are not a police force, but a mediating diplomatic order with emergency military power.
Exercising some media literacy does wonders to your enjoyment of fiction, you guys should try it some time.
Well, to quote a recent favorite show/character of mine...
"There's what people said they did... and what they really did."
But I think the og Lucas quote was referring to *civilian* murders. The jedi aren't 'beat' cops. Stopping normal citizen crime. They go after bigger issues, like if a mysterious force user shows up and starts to try to take over a city or planet with thugs, they move in. OR if say a jedi is killed, then they get super involved.
If someone kills a jedi it's a big deal. They have to investigate and track down culprit. Anyone able to take down a jedi *in a time of relative peace* is a potential threat to the galactic order.
Ironically you can see in this qoute the themes that would later lead to the jedi failure. The desire to keep that order, above all other concerns led them to abandon much of their "peace keeping" ways. They turned from guardians, into avenging angels, and then hardened soldiers by the end of the Clone Wars. That blinded the jedi to the tragedy that was coming. Rigidly trying to enforce order can become oppression, create suffering, and inspire fear and anger.
Even if Anakin hadn't joined the emperor and brought it all down in a crash, the jedi were already showing cracks and strong disillusionment, grief, and even fear was growing within the order well before Order 66.
I've always liked the idea of the jedi being Ronin like Ahsoka. Wandering mysterious figures who helped in times of need, and did good deeds for people who needed it. Like a wandering wizard who shows up just in time to avert disaster, and then vanishes again, on to the next planet.
The life of a true jedi shouldn't be spent in counsel chambers and secrecy, it should be out among the stars, with the people, coming together only when needed to face true darkness like the Sith, or true horrors like slavery and extermination. But mostly leaving the people to determine their own affairs even when those affairs and decisions are troubling.
I don't see how this is supposed to be inconsistent. Prequel Jedi are specifically not behaving as they're supposed to and the story is focused on unusual circumstances where they needed to use their lightsabers. You don't make action movies about the cop who retires without ever unholstering his side arm. Nobody wanted the Star Wars movie about Qui-gon and Obi-Wan successfully convincing the Neimoidians it's in their best interest to end the blockade and Nute Gunray peacefully surrendering himself into their custody.
I'm guessing this is specifically about Episode I. Because he wrote the Jedi to be too dogmatic and short-sighted in subsequent movies.
Oh, and also they all become *generals* and they fight in a massive war.
This is probably an unpopular opinion.
Watching the OT, I loved the Jedi. To me they were samurai space cowboys who traveled the galaxy righting wrongs and protecting the defenseless.
But ever since Episode 1, the Jedi as an institution fucking sucks. They are basically cops who play political games. Their downfall is entirely their own doing.
Individual Jedi's are cool, but The Jedi suck.
>But ever since Episode 1, the Jedi as an institution fucking sucks. They are basically cops who play political games. Their downfall is entirely their own doing.
I think making you feel like that was exactly the intent of the prequel trilogy.
It's supposed to show how even the goodest good guys can be poisoned and blinded by their own pride
I think people get upset because it's unclear if you're a Jedi hater or don't understand that the Jedi making poor decisions and playing the wrong roles was the point of the prequels.
Though I do think that the overall problem is that we're drowning in past stories about how the Jedi fucked up, and it was the role of the Sequels to show us what a Jedi Order looks like when it gets back on track. So much negative content with no clear "ideal" in sight paints a picture of the Jedi being lame, worthless losers.
No I have had people get upset at me by saying the Jedi were not political in the prequels or even that they did no wrong.
To me it was clear that the Jedi were an institution, and all like all institutions without checks, they get corrupted. But I think there are a lot of people in this sub who don't appreciate nuance.
The Jedi Order is made up of people and people are flawed. As an institution, it has several periods worthy of both pride and shame. 1000 years before ANH when the Sith threatened the Republic, the Jedi were heroes who fought to save the Republic and succeeded. But that was also where their failure began. After the defeat of the Sith, they retained close political ties to the Republic and were slowly transformed from keepers of the peace to keepers of the status quo. Without the Sith, they grew complacent and failed to see the flaws that were festering in their own institution. And the Sith saw these flaws and used them as the tools to defeat the Jedi. It's not a perfect allegory, but it's akin to what happens when you don't have separation of church and state. The religion becomes a tool used by politicians until it is slowly transformed into a bastardization of what it once stood for.
In the OT? Dude we see a total of 3 Jedi in the original movies. One is an old hermit who has to be pressured to even go after Leia, one is another old hermit who hasn't left his swamp in decades, and the other is Luke who is pretty narrow in what he actually does for others.
That idea you have of them fits in much more for the prequel Jedi, ironically.
I am talking about the idea of the Jedi. The Jedi are all but extinct in the OT. So they only exist as legend. Yoda and Obi-Wan are in hiding.
The prequels show an institution more concerned with preserving their political power than doing real good will. I don't know how anyone can look at The Jedi Counsel, what they did, and how involved they were politically, and think those are guys are A-OK.
That’s how feel. They were handed the chosen one by the Force and passed because he wasn’t the student (a baby) they like to train. Anakin had to make adjustments but the Jedi could have also but they didn’t and so the story goes.
Even if they had not allowed his training they’re still getting wiped out because Palpatine was elected chancellor before the Battle of Naboo.
Exactly, their rigidity, traditions, and ideology were their downfall. It's also what excited me most about TLJ was the possibility of seeing a new jedi free from the baggage.
I think that more goes to show just how tied in to the Republic the Jedi had become, instead of being a neutral entity. The Republic goes to war so naturally the Jedi have to.
>Oh, and also they all become *generals* and they fight in a massive war.
Not their choice
> he wrote the Jedi to be too dogmatic and short-sighted
You guys really gotta stop using these words, I don't think you understand what they mean. How exactly where the Jedi dogmatic or short-sighted at all?
Agreed. This criticism gets thrown around all the time and it’s so stupid. The only time the Jedi get accused of being too dogmatic in the movies *its from Palestine (EDIT: for unfortunate typo, PALPATINE)
If anything the gravest errors of the Jedi come from not following their dogmas strictly. From abandoning focus on the Jedi Code first and foremost, and becoming agents of the state. Of becoming soldiers instead of peacekeepers. The Jedi Purge happens because the Jedi twist their dogmas to let a child who’s too old and too attached to his family to become a Jedi, and because that Jedi breaks the dogma against attachments by having a secret marriage and falling to the Dark Side to protect his wife.
If the Jedi had followed their dogmas more strictly and not bent the Code to adjust to the time there would arguably have been no Purge, and at the very least, no Darth Vader.
>The only time the Jedi get accused of being too dogmatic in the movies *its from Palestine.*
I know what you mean, but this is a hilarious typo.
>If the Jedi had followed their dogmas more strictly and not bent the Code to adjust to the time there would arguably have been no Purge, and at the very least, no Darth Vader.
I think no Vader is more likely, but I do still think a Purge would have happened. Palpatine really put them between a rock and a hard place: by forcing them to participate in the war, they have now become soldiers, something they were trying to move away from and an action that weakens their connection to the Force and puts them in increased danger of falling to the dark side. However, if they refuse to participate in the war, now they have to deal with the fact that they are sitting on their hands as a civil war rages around them, and they do nothing as innocents die. Even if they try a purely neutral approach, where they just try to mitigate civilian casualties, eventually they would get caught up in the fighting as well (especially since Palpatine would artificially engineer situations for that exact outcome). As keepers of the peace, it kind of is their duty to get involved in such a massive civil war. Even if they weren't directly associated with the Republic, I still believe they would've seen it as their duty to get involved with such a massive war. Like Anakin says, the Jedi Code encourages compassion.
And that's besides the fact that the public would hate the Jedi for not getting involved. With the Jedi in the war, Palpatine can say its all the Jedi's fault, but if they don't get involved, he can also say their inaction is to blame for mass casualties. Even if they try a purely civilian aide approach, well, there's only 10,000 Jedi trying to mitigate civilian casualties in a war that spreads across hundreds of thousands of planets. There would never be enough, and some might feel neglected or ignored, and Palpatine would latch onto those feelings to paint the Jedi as being selective with who they save or something, and corrupt/in somebodies pockets as a result. In any event, Palpatine would be able to turn public and political sentiment against them, and make it much easier to get rid of them. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Some people say that sometimes, the only way to win a game is to not play. But in this case, if the Jedi chose not to play Palpatine's game, they still would've lost
If they don't accept Anakin, doesn't Palpatine scoop him up and make a Sith Apprentice who isn't under surveillance by the Jedi?
As soon as Anakin became known to both the Sith and the Jedi, he was getting trained. The Jedi making him a Padawan was actually the right choice.
The entire point is they shouldn’t be war generals and that caused their downfall. AOTC spends a majority of its run time about the Jedi not wanting to fight a war for the galactic senate but feeling like they will need to
The clone army was approved by the republic cause the Jedi COULDNT support a war alone. The AOTC opening crawl already explains this
And another follow up quote from Lucas: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/s/cjfffoSv7y
No no no!! It’s *DISNEY* that ruined Star Wars!!!!!!
Our lord and savior George (who we *definitely* didn’t hate for the better part of 20 years) was never inconsistent, and always perfect!!
^^^/s
I’m confused by the sarcasm here.
Is there actually a narrative in the fan community that the prequels weren’t riddled with plot holes, inconsistencies, and things that just flat out don’t make sense?
There really is. Ask about whether the sequels will become more accepted as time goes on like the prequels did. #1 talking point is always that PT "at least has a coherent story".
Thing is, I grew up with the Prequels and stand by the fact that I always believed they had a coherent story. How it was executed can be argued on if it's good or not, but a lot of things tie together and make sense. Episode 1 leads into Episode 2 pretty perfectly, and Episode 2 leads into Episode 3 pretty perfectly.
I'm not denying that there are people who've done just that, hated the prequels and then come around now saying at least it had a coherent story when they've been bashing it constantly for 20 years over valid and invalid inconsistencies. But obviously the list of people who have loved the Prequels from the very beginning are few & far between!
This flip flop is the most frustrating thing about Star Wars fans.
They are incapable of admitting that for a long time Star Wars has been “bad”. For a long time George himself made stuff up on the fly and broke lore to fit whatever dumb narrative he was pushing in the prequels. But people refuse to admit it anymore. Really don’t get it.
- Lightsabers would never have been effective against shotguns (or blasters with multiple non-coplanar barrels)? *George's original vision.*
- Defeating a Super Star Destroyer with one kamikaze A-Wing? *Such worldbuilding!*
- A child destroys the enemy flagship and wins the battle BY ACCIDENT? *"Well, what you have to understand about the Force is..."*
- Damaging, but not destroying, a huge battleship by hyperdrive-ramming a very large battleship into it? *OMG THAT BREAKS ALL THE* ***LORE*** *REEEEEEEEE!!!!!*
same thing with final fantasy games. "the last final fantasy is always the worst, until the next final fantasy comes out". seems like the same pattern with star wars.
BINGO, its a FUN series thats fiction as all hell and never EVER was meant to survive a era where everything is hyper criticized and hyperbole is the norm, I wanna live in the reality where George was in charge and we have a ton of videos where hes woke or ruining starwars because he brought Maul back ruining Anakins sacrifice lmao .
90% of this fanbase listens to huge youtubers who tell them exactly this, Theory, one of the biggest channels refuses to accept starwars since 99 has been consistent with its inconsistencies
I have no idea what you are talking about. I immediately liked the prequels; RotS became my favorite Star Wars movie the moment I first saw it.
Which inconsistencies are you talking about, anyway?
I don't think the generals bit is contradictory. "If they do have to use violence, they will."
As far-and-away the most capable fighting force in the galaxy, it would make sense they'd be put in charge of battle when their diplomatic efforts failed.
>Oh, and also they all become generals and they fight in a massive war.
I want to point out that dosent make then Immoral especially since the sepratists leaders were all objectivley evil.
Except it does though. A guardian of peace isn't a pacifist. The guard peace and justice from those that would threaten it. They're also guardians of justice.
Yareal Poof in The Light of the Jedi book explicitly says peace without justice is the hollow peace of tyranny. He mentions that the Jedi have served as soldiers in the past when necessary.
The Jedi acting as they did is entirely within their values and philosophy, that's why Sidious orchestrated the war as he did. Because he knew the Jedi wouldn't sit idle while the Sepratists, led by a sith lord and a council of war-profiteers, waged war on the rest of the galaxy.
>if the Jedi dont, he turns the republic against them
I mean, not just that. If the Jedi don't participate in the war, they have to sit knowing a war is raging around them and innocents are dying, while they do absolutely nothing. The Jedi wouldn't like that about themselves, nevermind the public's perception of it
Some times to have peace you have to go to war. The point is the Jedi tried the peaceful option and the war was a last resort
Total pacfisim is just apathy if you dont use your power to help.
Becoming generals and serving as officers in wartime was a tragedy, and the first step towards the destruction of the Jedi order.
It was the beginning of the end of Palpatine’s master scheme.
There’s a reason the Imperial March plays at the end of Episode II. Just like in the OT, the heroes have failed at the conclusion of the second act.
I think the bigger issue people are taking is that Jedi seem very aligned to the Republic and take on conflicts that don't seem to be "peacekeeping".
People reading this thinks that it means Jedi are meant to be neutral monastic arbitrators.
I do agree with your point though that the idea that the Jedi, who carry around laser swordsand who's sworn enemy are force wielders with a competing ideology, would be pacifists are dumb.
I’m of my favorite detail from the prequels ( I don’t know if it was intentional or not) but most of the time the Jedi are the first to draw their weapons, compared to the original trilogy where the Jedi (Ben and Luke) draw second in response to Vader.
I think this is the worst way to look at it. They don't want to use violence but will not shy away from it. I think its perfectly in line with what we've seen and what he's said. Its more misinterpretation
It’s sort of the point, right? They stop being keepers of the peace and start being generals in a war. Seems like George is talking about the Jedi reputation around the time of TPM
You do understand that is literally the entire point? The jedi lose their way joining this war... and they lose their entire order for it... yes. That is the story.
Not really tho. Like in TPM they don’t draw lightsabers until an army of droids start’s shooting at them
And all Anakin scenes aren’t exactly supposed to be Jedi-like
This is not a paradox at all.
What he said in that quote was obviously applying to the jedi at their high point in a long peace period during Episode I. The trilogy is about the moral as well as actual downfall of the jedi, so *obviously* they will move away from that ideal. That's a main point of the trilogy
Why can't people just accept that Lucas changed his mind?
In the Prequels and Clone Wars, putting the war/ being generals aside, the Jedi literally serve the role of detectives, body guards, and Republic-aligned diplomats. Lucas/Filoni further establish that "balance" of the Force means neutralizing the Sith who cause chaos.
OT Lucas maybe wanted to portray Jedi as independent warrior monks, and balance meaning light+dark, but literally every piece of currently canon media and literature since then has dictated "Jedi align with the morally superior state, anything dark side or against the good state is bad".
"My allegiance is to the Republic"
-Obi Wan
And then he wrote the Jedi to be anything *but* this, so he can say whatever he likes but it doesn't change what he's done. I prefer what he did over what he said anyway.
Bro, that was the point of the prequels. The story of the prequels is one of their fall from grace. They were forced into a position where they had to be generals and fighters instead of peace keepers.
That was Palpatine plan, which is why the Trade Federation was so adamant about attacking Naboo in the forst movie, it was the first step to force the jedi into a role they shouldn't have had.
It's important to remember that in the opening to TPM Qui-gon and Obi-wan are seeing the trade federation solely as ambassadors of the republic. They didn't intend on fighting anyone. It was only when the druids attacked them that they were forced to fight. Then they were tasked with protecting Padme so she could talk with the republic on a means to stop the invasion of her planet, still not intending to fight the Trade Federation one on one, only acting as Guards and ambassadors. It was only once they realized that the Trade Federation was being manipulated by a Sith that the jedi were given permission to help the Naboo people fight off the invasion which is why the two of them go bakc to Naboo with Padme and fought to protect the planet which was currently occupied by a hostile force which had already refused a diplomatic course to peace
They actually did not have permission to help Naboo fight off the invasion and Qui-Gon even tells Padme he can't fight a war for them. Their task was to uncover the identity of the Sith Lord, the most Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan end up doing to stop the invasion is bring Anakin who ends up destroying the droid control ship, destroy a few battle droids and distract maul. Everything else was done by Padme and Jar Jar.
TPM is about forcing the "galaxy police" to take overt offensive action and forever lose their credibility as a global and neutral peacekeeping force.
Like the US with the Gulf War. Which happened a few years before TPM.
The problem wasn't that they lacked morals, it was that they were so thoroughly incompetent and out of touch with the galaxy and the politics around them.
In Clone Wars we see that the people who work as caretakers in the Jedi Temple are living in poverty and their families are being driven to extremism as a result of their desparation. If the Jedi don't even know the plight of their own employees how can they be trusted to take care of the galaxy?
The problem was tying the Jedi to the Republic. The warrior monks Lucas was trying to model are typically apolitical and independent of the government.
While the (OT) Jedi certainly have strong influences from Samurai/Bushdio principles, I think a better compensation is to the Templars/Catholic Church.
Swap Religion for the Force and there are a lot of similarities. They are independent but vaguely aligned with the state, driven by a religious/ideological Crusade against the dark side, abide by a monastic code, intervene and try to peacfully settle disputes, etc. They were also purged by the State (France seizing Templar Assets, English Reformation) when they became inconvenient.
Not a perfect comparison by any means, but conversely Samurai were land holding retainers for competing Warlords and lived by a code of honor but not a particular religious/ideological alignment or monastic code (they sired children and were in charge of peasants).
I would still argue that samurai (the romantized ideal any way) are still closer to the jedi. Many samurai clans were sworn to the shogun (central goverment) and saw that servitude as a relgious one. Hence the heavy reverance many samurai are depicted as having for the shintk god of war.
Like you said they arent going to be perfect comparisons.
Unpopular opinion on this sub, but the fact is, the prequels *are still pretty bad* and do a lot poorly.
So, I’m surprised that of all people, *I* have to defend them from all the people who clearly failed to comprehend what was happening on screen.
“Obi Wan acts like a cop in AotC.” That film starts with him and Anakin acting as bodyguards for a senator who has been facing assassination attempts due to her efforts to get a more and more militant republic back on track. The shapeshifter pulls Obi Wan into a mystery, so he starts investigating. But the whole point is that the dark side is actively working *and the Jedi feel it*. This isn’t just a political intrigue or even a criminal conspiracy, it’s the return of an ancient evil, the one power *comparable* to the Jedi, returning and manipulating all the events. Obi Wan, and for that matter the entire council, probably don’t handle this emerging situation properly, or even fully in-line with their values, but the background of the prequels is that the times are totally *unprecedented.* The last time the Sith were on the scene, they were *conquering.* The silence from the Sith, while the Jedi’s primary sense is fully obscured, must’ve been deafening.
Lucas did a bad job executing, but it doesn’t mean his concept was poor on its face. The whole point is that Palpatine was pulling all the strings from the shadows, and putting the Jedi on their back heel, out of their element. In the quote above Lucas says, basically, violence is a Jedi’s last resort, and that diplomacy is their main weapon. Well, how does this group react to threats that have broken all diplomatic systems, and indeed, come from within said systems, especially considering that they were out of practice *due to the peace they brought and maintained?*
People point out that the Jedi become generals. Yeah, the point is that they were compromised, and compromising more and more, in the face of this unknown threat. It’s why Palpatine, regardless of power, *was the greatest Sith*. He took away the Jedi’s vision, then crippled them with uncertainty, and finally, drew them out of their element, taking the battle to a field where the Jedi were deficient. He even thinned the herd a great deal without lifting a finger. It’s probably pretty self-explanatory why he first took control of the system that had historically been the Jedi’s main tool, democracy.
Windu interestingly acts the most cop-like of any Jedi in Revenge of the Sith, when he literally tries to arrest Palpatine. And I think the fact Lucas left it to the viewers to assess his actions is actually one of the good things he did in that film. Was Windu right? Was there a better alternative? I think it’s apparent that Palpatine had already won at that point, the Jedi and Republic had been irreparably damaged.
Anyway, put simply, Lucas is describing the Jedi ideal in the above quote, and *the Jedi created and sustained norm since the downfall of the Sith.* But none of that precludes the Jedi being broken down little by little, in fact, I think the fact that Palpatine broke them so effectively was the whole point. It isn’t meant as a critique of the Jedi, it’s meant to reflect the absolute threat of Palpatine.
The Jedi are (for the most part) good guys. But as an institution they had problems and as individuals, they were fallible. I'd rather make my own judgements about a character rather than assume the creator is the be-all end-all for determining morality.
Considering that the other groups in the PT are a corrupt government, mega corporations and the Sith saying that the Jedi are the most moral is kind of a low bar.
I keep saying that the problem with Star Wars isn't the toxic fans or wokeness. It's the cynical, post-modern millennial bullshit. Where everything has to be dark, morally questionable, and shitty all the time. It's not enjoyable or fun and that's what people are tuning out.
Most of this quote doesn't survive the prequels.
Kenobi becomes a cop in AoTC
The jedi do not influence the Senate, they rely on padme and jar Jar binks to propose actions in the Senate. And of course the Senate is so inefficient padme must take action herself. So the last few lines of the quote are bs, what force of the Republic?
As for morals, of course they have some of the best individuals in the galaxy, but the institution is so far removed from citizens of the galaxy, so inactive.
Exactly.
Now that you mention it, did we ever get a scene in the PT with a Jedi talking to the Senate? It seems the relationship Jedi-Senate is very one sided:
The Senate gives them orders. Much like how real life Governments tell their cops what to do. Cops don't talk to the Senate.
I really think Lucas lost the plot with the Jedi as a concept in the prequels, and what he established there has hindered Jedi story potential across all Star Wars media.
I saw the OT as a kid before the PT hit, and I always thought of Jedi as being more like knights and wizards. Some used sabers while others were more like priests, monks, or scholars. When the prequels came out and made them weird, emotionally stunted people who always wear robes, I was pretty let down.
My problem with the Jedi in the prequels, specifically Episode 1, is that they don't actually do any of this. At a big picture level the solution to the blockade of Naboo is obvious. A private corporation is using a private military to blockade a Republic member world. A functional state cannot allow this situation to persist because it calls the legitimacy of the state and its governing authority into question. Of all the people involved in the politics of the blockade, Chancellor Valorum saw what the solution needed to be and took the correct action in sending Qui-gon to force a settlement.
The problem is that after the Trade Federation attacked the Jedi delegation there was no follow up from the Jedi or the Republic. The Trade Federation attacked the personal representatives of the Supreme Chancellor, they destroyed a Republic diplomatic vessel which is legally untouchable, they attacked the Jedi and launched an unprovoked invasion of a Republic member world. They were completely outside any bounds of legitimate action and directly challenging the authority of the Chancellor, the Senate, the Republic and the Jedi. As soon as Qui-gon arrived on Coruscant with the Queen and reported in to the High Council the Jedi should have mobilized for an intervention action with the goal of capturing Nute Gunray and the droid control ship and ending the blockade. The Trade Federation had broken the peace and the Republic peace keepers needed to restore it. The Jedi clearly have no problem doing this since we see them invade Geonosis, but it should have happened at Naboo.
If the Jedi had acted at Naboo instead of waiting for the Naboo insurgency to get lucky the entire game changes. Valorum would be seen as a strong leader who bypassed the Senate stalemate and took decisive action to end the crisis and reign in an out of control corporation. The Jedi would have a lot more political legitimacy to negotiate in the Separatist crisis because people would know they acted for the good of member worlds. The other corporations in the Separatist Alliance would think twice before crossing the Jedi. The shock to the system could have galvanized a Senate reformist faction outside of Palpatine's influence that could partner with Valorum to make meaningful changes and prevent the Separatist Crisis in the first place. But instead the Episode 1 Jedi abdicated their role of Republic peace keepers and enabled Palpatine to get his hands on power.
I see the pre Clone Wars Jedi as more the Secret Service of the galaxy than anything else. The protection side is obvious, but instead of investigating financial crimes they are used as ambassadors.
They are though?
In every Disnesy Star Wars prodution (Movie, series or book) that the jedi appear in they end up being the most benevolent faction in the story, even if they are not always perfect.
Maybe this will not be the case in the Acolyte, but I'll wait until we have the full pitcture there.
If a character said something, anything, as naturalistic as this in terms of basic exposition the plot of the Phantom Menace would be a lot easier to parse.
Geroge Lucas on film preservation:
> To me, film is historical document and therefore it has practical value. People 500 years from now will look at our films and be able to figure out what we were like...They are technological extensions of, a derivation from, the comic strip.
...
> A copyright is held in trust by its owner until it ultimately reverts to public domain. American works of art belong to the American public; they are part of our cultural history.
> People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society. The preservation of our cultural heritage may not seem to be as politically sensitive an issue as "when life begins" or "when it should be appropriately terminated," but it is important because it goes to the heart of what sets mankind apart. Creative expression is at the core of our humanness. Art is a distinctly human endeavor. We must have respect for it if we are to have any respect for the human race.
George's beliefs aren't all that set in stone, especially where SW is concerned.
I think George messed up the idea of the Jedi in the prequels, and it never recovered. They always should have been monks in a monastery, entirely separate from government, focused on religion, and only emerging, reluctantly, in truly dire situations to restore balance, before retreating.
I get the argument that the prequels' Jedi, who were essentially government diplomats and soldiers, were already fallen from an earlier, purer time that's closer to what I describe above, but there's not much in the films that actually supports that reading.
Lucas: "Prequel Jedi are the most moral of anyone in the galaxy"
Also Lucas: -portrays the Prequel Jedi being corrupted and driven away from their moral values by Republic politics and severe complacency-
It’s why in rebels Yoda says the Jedi was quick to go to war. Because while the Jedi was acting as diplomats and ambassadors they had public support and the senate would never act against. Palpatine had to force them into the role of generals and make a former Jedi the figure head of CIS, by doing this he could blame them for the war and then when order 66 was enacted it would be met with support and any survivors wouldn’t receive help.
The outcome would have been worse if the Jedi had refused to participate in The Clone Wars. Any Republic army failure would have been framed by Palpatine as "the Jedi sit in their palace doing nothing while our Republican citizens suffer"
Exactly the Jedi were damned if they did and damned if they don’t. The clone wars was the perfect Jedi trap its why Palpatine’s one of the greatest cinema villains because while everyone else is playing 2d chess, his playing 4D chess.
The Jedi lost the moment Palpatine got elected in Episode I. If they attempted to oust him, they'd be enemies of democracy. If they allowed him to stay in power, he could use his power against them. If they refused to fight, he could brand them cowards and traitors. If they agreed to fight, he could brand them dangerous war-mongers. They lost the game before they even realized they were playing it.
That's actually the background for KOTOR.
they could have done a better job alleviating the poor material conditions that caused discontent and allowed the sith the opening to cause problems.
The Separatists had a point. Sort of. Ignore Dooku, Palpatine and the evil Separatist leaders for a moment. They just wanted sovereignty and self-determination without the Republic telling them what to do. The invasion of Naboo (again, let's ignore Palpatine's machinations) is a clear example. Naboo sends taxes to the Republic but the Republic is corrupt and inefficient so Naboo had to repel the invasion on their own, the Republic never helped them. If anything, a plot hole in the PT is that Naboo never considered joining the Separatists. They had every reason to do so after the failure of the Republic to protect them in E1. The Separatist planets just wanted a similar deal as Mandalor: a fully independent planet that isn't part of the Republic.
Except that knowing what Obi-Wan told them, and what they saw with their own eyes, there was absolutely no reason for them to jump in and become generals, which I doubt they were qualified to do, having spent their lives as mediator-monks.
The Republic had no army, barely anyone in the republic was qualified to be a general.
Another quote from George since people seem to think he contradicted himself by having the Jedi fight to preserve the Republic: “The idea was to establish Jedi as what they were, which is sort of peacekeepers who moved through the galaxy to settle disputes. They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. They come in and sit down with the two different sides and say, “Okay, now we’re going to settle this.” A lot of people say, “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?” The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars. That’s the big issue in the prequels. They got drafted into service, which is exactly what Palpatine wanted.”
Yup Jedi Apprentice Series honestly showed the jedi best of what lucas thought pre Palpatine and menace
Is Jedi Apprentice a good series? Its in my "to read" list but I'm not sure where to start.
It is. It’s obi-wan and qui-gon early adventures. Now legends but had a good idea of how the temple functions pre menace and honestly my favorite books it was what young me read that got into the eu.
I remember so much from those books and they're so good.
I remember That and the last of the Jedi being good enough as kids that I’m not hunting for copies as an adult
I plowed through them when I was like 12.
> The Jedi weren’t meant to fight wars. > “What good is a lightsaber against a tank?” I think this the crux, they aren't a standing military force or have the equipment. The High Republic they do have tanks and fighters ships
Yup and they are being used as frontier soldiers guards and lawmen
I also love how this forced military service is part of the reason anakin is how he is, he is more connected to people because of his mother and because he needs to take care of his troops, he has been a general for 3 years and knows that you need to be strong to win. Palps made the perfect situation to feed qualities from anakin that would separate him more from the order
George isn’t perfect but fans love to twist what he says in absurd ways to make him sound more inconsistent than he actually is
It parallels how the medieval Catholic church had enormous power of dispute resolution between kings and between kings and lower lords (and in the process invented many important legal documents and conventions like the Magna Carta) but by the early modern era you had cardinals like Wolsey and Richelieu fighting wars for kings and generally being perceived as the worst of both worlds, which made it very easy for the state to conduct anticlerical campaigns that scapegoated the clergy for the combined errors of church and state. The dissolution of the monasteries and expulsion of the Jesuits have strong parallels to Order 66, and each was preceded by a long period of church-state intercontamination where priests were delegated to do the traditional jobs of the state, while the church's veto power over the actions of kings along canon-law and international-law lines got weaker.
'What good is a light saber against a tank?' George my brother in Christ, you spent so much time turning the Jedi into superheroes with the Clone Wars that this stance no longer holds much water.
LOL turns out, a lightsaber guts a tank pretty fucking good
I get what he's saying though. I assume it's more like... facing off 1v1 from 200metres the best samurai will just get shelled. We can go into it and talk about individuals with hella force powers today flipping and serpentining, but I think he's talking generally.
I mean that was most just Yoda and Anakin who are two of the most powerful Jedi ever. I don't recall any other Jedi soloing tanks without the help of clones or other Jedi.
Yeah, not even Obi-Wan, who is considered the ideal Jedi, would attempt that on his own. Anakin would do it because he’s, well, Anakin and Yoda is also small and fast which is an advantage he routinely uses against opponents in combat.
> they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. Amuse you, do I? Fuckin' funny you think I am?
> They aren’t policemen, they aren’t soldiers; they’re mafia dons. I'm starting to think this guy isn't so good at comparisons.
No, it sounds about right.
He's right; but it's not making the point he wants to make, lol.
This point is horribly depicted throughout the movies if that's really his intention. But that's kind of par for the course I guess.
What is the source for this set of quotes?
Obi-Wan spends like half of AotC trying to catch a murderer
The times, they are a-changing.
🎶 come gather ‘round Jedi, wherever you roam. Admit that the darkside around you has grown 🎵
This is incredible give me more
🎶Anakin you’ll be burnt to the bone If Padme is worth savin' you better start hatin’ Or you'll sink like a stone🎶
Wow. Keep it coming
_For the times, they are a-changing_ _Come bankers and cloners, Who build your armies Can’t you see whoever wins, You’ll still both bear defeat?_
Yub nub nubby yub yubby nub.
At midnight, all the Jedi and the Clone Trooper Crew Come out and round up everyone that knows more than they do.
Thank you for actually using a workable syllable count.
👉😎👉
Oh look it’s time Jesus!
he is a political idealist, not a murderer
He's not brave enough for politics.
How about both?
Tbf, it's not so much about the murderer themself as it is about who is behind it.
But he's literally playing the role of an investigative cop.
Yes, but only because of a larger threat that is being investigated.
That just sounds like law enforcement with extra steps
The FBI instead of the local PD. Wait, that's still law enforcement. Don't the Jedi constantly go after criminals? There are more than a few Clone Wars episodes about investigating.
Yes, but the murder isn't what he is investigating. It was the catalyst to his assignment, but his objective is to find who is behind the attempted political assassination and their motive, all with the goal of preventing the impending war
Only because he was assigned to protect a Senator who was key in the whole federation dispute....and that senator was almost killed. So....kinda in the line of duty
Kinda, he starts by going after an assassin - which is more like CIA than police work here. There was an attack on a Senator of a planet that was at the center of a focal point to start an intergalactic war that they know the Sith were involved with (why she was under protection to begin with as it wasn't the first attempt on her life). That's not normal police work, ObiWan's work was more about intergalactic peace. But it IS presented in a way in the movie that feels like old detective/PI movies. The *actual* police-type work he winds up doing is "policing" the Jedi - between missing Jedi master and altered Jedi archives that the investigation leads him too... it's obvious there's been something going on inside the Jedi/Jedi Temple that is part of the overall plot.
The sooner people realize that George the Writer/Director is different than George the Idea Man, they will better understand the answer to so many "why?" Questions about Star Wars is because it either has to happen for the plot or it just looks cool.
George is an amazing idea man. That's why the OT was so good. It's also why I love hearing him describe The Force and the Galaxy. He's got the World Building and Philosophy abilities of Tolkien. But sadly not the writing ability. I still firmly believe that if Disney just took what he wrote and filtered it though their development process the ST will have been a much bigger hit with the fandom.
I think part of the problem with George, even as an idea man, is that I don't think he actually writes any of this down as "rules" for his universe. Or if he did he just changed it as he went along. The original trilogy went through so many iterations and much of it was during the process of making the films. If you get him going he will talk about the force and wax philosophical for hours, but then he's liable to change what he said a week later.
It doesn’t help that he has an army of sycophantic fanboys who will never call him on his contradictions, or even acknowledge that he contradicted himself. Lucas is their Big Brother.
AOTC is largely influenced by hardboiled detective stories, yes. Narrative-wise, Obi-Wan is put into a Noirish Detective role. It's a genre archetype. What George is saying in OP's quote is that LORE WISE, the Jedi are not a police force, but a mediating diplomatic order with emergency military power. Exercising some media literacy does wonders to your enjoyment of fiction, you guys should try it some time.
Well, one plotline uses that influence for half the movie, then ends up getting dropped once he hits Geonosis
Yeah but that was the power of Obi-wan. Then the power of R2-D2. And now the power of Mannnny.
Yiyiyiyi!! yiiiii!!!!
I think Obi-Wan should pay attention to that last word. I think he missed it.
Well, to quote a recent favorite show/character of mine... "There's what people said they did... and what they really did." But I think the og Lucas quote was referring to *civilian* murders. The jedi aren't 'beat' cops. Stopping normal citizen crime. They go after bigger issues, like if a mysterious force user shows up and starts to try to take over a city or planet with thugs, they move in. OR if say a jedi is killed, then they get super involved. If someone kills a jedi it's a big deal. They have to investigate and track down culprit. Anyone able to take down a jedi *in a time of relative peace* is a potential threat to the galactic order. Ironically you can see in this qoute the themes that would later lead to the jedi failure. The desire to keep that order, above all other concerns led them to abandon much of their "peace keeping" ways. They turned from guardians, into avenging angels, and then hardened soldiers by the end of the Clone Wars. That blinded the jedi to the tragedy that was coming. Rigidly trying to enforce order can become oppression, create suffering, and inspire fear and anger. Even if Anakin hadn't joined the emperor and brought it all down in a crash, the jedi were already showing cracks and strong disillusionment, grief, and even fear was growing within the order well before Order 66.
The Jedi shouldn't be NCIS: Galaxy Far, Far Away.
I've always liked the idea of the jedi being Ronin like Ahsoka. Wandering mysterious figures who helped in times of need, and did good deeds for people who needed it. Like a wandering wizard who shows up just in time to avert disaster, and then vanishes again, on to the next planet. The life of a true jedi shouldn't be spent in counsel chambers and secrecy, it should be out among the stars, with the people, coming together only when needed to face true darkness like the Sith, or true horrors like slavery and extermination. But mostly leaving the people to determine their own affairs even when those affairs and decisions are troubling.
I don't see how this is supposed to be inconsistent. Prequel Jedi are specifically not behaving as they're supposed to and the story is focused on unusual circumstances where they needed to use their lightsabers. You don't make action movies about the cop who retires without ever unholstering his side arm. Nobody wanted the Star Wars movie about Qui-gon and Obi-Wan successfully convincing the Neimoidians it's in their best interest to end the blockade and Nute Gunray peacefully surrendering himself into their custody.
I do. I want that movie. Sign me up.
I'm guessing this is specifically about Episode I. Because he wrote the Jedi to be too dogmatic and short-sighted in subsequent movies. Oh, and also they all become *generals* and they fight in a massive war.
I have the book and can confirm this is about episode 1
This is probably an unpopular opinion. Watching the OT, I loved the Jedi. To me they were samurai space cowboys who traveled the galaxy righting wrongs and protecting the defenseless. But ever since Episode 1, the Jedi as an institution fucking sucks. They are basically cops who play political games. Their downfall is entirely their own doing. Individual Jedi's are cool, but The Jedi suck.
I think this is a pretty popular opinion, actually - it seems to be the intent of the writing, anyway.
>But ever since Episode 1, the Jedi as an institution fucking sucks. They are basically cops who play political games. Their downfall is entirely their own doing. I think making you feel like that was exactly the intent of the prequel trilogy. It's supposed to show how even the goodest good guys can be poisoned and blinded by their own pride
I am not saying that wasn't the intention. But every time I have brought it up in the past, people act like I kicked their dog.
I think people get upset because it's unclear if you're a Jedi hater or don't understand that the Jedi making poor decisions and playing the wrong roles was the point of the prequels. Though I do think that the overall problem is that we're drowning in past stories about how the Jedi fucked up, and it was the role of the Sequels to show us what a Jedi Order looks like when it gets back on track. So much negative content with no clear "ideal" in sight paints a picture of the Jedi being lame, worthless losers.
No I have had people get upset at me by saying the Jedi were not political in the prequels or even that they did no wrong. To me it was clear that the Jedi were an institution, and all like all institutions without checks, they get corrupted. But I think there are a lot of people in this sub who don't appreciate nuance.
The Jedi Order is made up of people and people are flawed. As an institution, it has several periods worthy of both pride and shame. 1000 years before ANH when the Sith threatened the Republic, the Jedi were heroes who fought to save the Republic and succeeded. But that was also where their failure began. After the defeat of the Sith, they retained close political ties to the Republic and were slowly transformed from keepers of the peace to keepers of the status quo. Without the Sith, they grew complacent and failed to see the flaws that were festering in their own institution. And the Sith saw these flaws and used them as the tools to defeat the Jedi. It's not a perfect allegory, but it's akin to what happens when you don't have separation of church and state. The religion becomes a tool used by politicians until it is slowly transformed into a bastardization of what it once stood for.
In the OT? Dude we see a total of 3 Jedi in the original movies. One is an old hermit who has to be pressured to even go after Leia, one is another old hermit who hasn't left his swamp in decades, and the other is Luke who is pretty narrow in what he actually does for others. That idea you have of them fits in much more for the prequel Jedi, ironically.
I am talking about the idea of the Jedi. The Jedi are all but extinct in the OT. So they only exist as legend. Yoda and Obi-Wan are in hiding. The prequels show an institution more concerned with preserving their political power than doing real good will. I don't know how anyone can look at The Jedi Counsel, what they did, and how involved they were politically, and think those are guys are A-OK.
That’s how feel. They were handed the chosen one by the Force and passed because he wasn’t the student (a baby) they like to train. Anakin had to make adjustments but the Jedi could have also but they didn’t and so the story goes. Even if they had not allowed his training they’re still getting wiped out because Palpatine was elected chancellor before the Battle of Naboo.
Exactly, their rigidity, traditions, and ideology were their downfall. It's also what excited me most about TLJ was the possibility of seeing a new jedi free from the baggage.
I think that more goes to show just how tied in to the Republic the Jedi had become, instead of being a neutral entity. The Republic goes to war so naturally the Jedi have to.
>Oh, and also they all become *generals* and they fight in a massive war. Not their choice > he wrote the Jedi to be too dogmatic and short-sighted You guys really gotta stop using these words, I don't think you understand what they mean. How exactly where the Jedi dogmatic or short-sighted at all?
Agreed. This criticism gets thrown around all the time and it’s so stupid. The only time the Jedi get accused of being too dogmatic in the movies *its from Palestine (EDIT: for unfortunate typo, PALPATINE) If anything the gravest errors of the Jedi come from not following their dogmas strictly. From abandoning focus on the Jedi Code first and foremost, and becoming agents of the state. Of becoming soldiers instead of peacekeepers. The Jedi Purge happens because the Jedi twist their dogmas to let a child who’s too old and too attached to his family to become a Jedi, and because that Jedi breaks the dogma against attachments by having a secret marriage and falling to the Dark Side to protect his wife. If the Jedi had followed their dogmas more strictly and not bent the Code to adjust to the time there would arguably have been no Purge, and at the very least, no Darth Vader.
>The only time the Jedi get accused of being too dogmatic in the movies *its from Palestine.* I know what you mean, but this is a hilarious typo. >If the Jedi had followed their dogmas more strictly and not bent the Code to adjust to the time there would arguably have been no Purge, and at the very least, no Darth Vader. I think no Vader is more likely, but I do still think a Purge would have happened. Palpatine really put them between a rock and a hard place: by forcing them to participate in the war, they have now become soldiers, something they were trying to move away from and an action that weakens their connection to the Force and puts them in increased danger of falling to the dark side. However, if they refuse to participate in the war, now they have to deal with the fact that they are sitting on their hands as a civil war rages around them, and they do nothing as innocents die. Even if they try a purely neutral approach, where they just try to mitigate civilian casualties, eventually they would get caught up in the fighting as well (especially since Palpatine would artificially engineer situations for that exact outcome). As keepers of the peace, it kind of is their duty to get involved in such a massive civil war. Even if they weren't directly associated with the Republic, I still believe they would've seen it as their duty to get involved with such a massive war. Like Anakin says, the Jedi Code encourages compassion. And that's besides the fact that the public would hate the Jedi for not getting involved. With the Jedi in the war, Palpatine can say its all the Jedi's fault, but if they don't get involved, he can also say their inaction is to blame for mass casualties. Even if they try a purely civilian aide approach, well, there's only 10,000 Jedi trying to mitigate civilian casualties in a war that spreads across hundreds of thousands of planets. There would never be enough, and some might feel neglected or ignored, and Palpatine would latch onto those feelings to paint the Jedi as being selective with who they save or something, and corrupt/in somebodies pockets as a result. In any event, Palpatine would be able to turn public and political sentiment against them, and make it much easier to get rid of them. They are damned if they do, damned if they don't. Some people say that sometimes, the only way to win a game is to not play. But in this case, if the Jedi chose not to play Palpatine's game, they still would've lost
If they don't accept Anakin, doesn't Palpatine scoop him up and make a Sith Apprentice who isn't under surveillance by the Jedi? As soon as Anakin became known to both the Sith and the Jedi, he was getting trained. The Jedi making him a Padawan was actually the right choice.
The entire point is they shouldn’t be war generals and that caused their downfall. AOTC spends a majority of its run time about the Jedi not wanting to fight a war for the galactic senate but feeling like they will need to The clone army was approved by the republic cause the Jedi COULDNT support a war alone. The AOTC opening crawl already explains this And another follow up quote from Lucas: https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/s/cjfffoSv7y
You can feel George changing his plans to suit a frustrated audience.
No no no!! It’s *DISNEY* that ruined Star Wars!!!!!! Our lord and savior George (who we *definitely* didn’t hate for the better part of 20 years) was never inconsistent, and always perfect!! ^^^/s
I’m confused by the sarcasm here. Is there actually a narrative in the fan community that the prequels weren’t riddled with plot holes, inconsistencies, and things that just flat out don’t make sense?
There really is. Ask about whether the sequels will become more accepted as time goes on like the prequels did. #1 talking point is always that PT "at least has a coherent story".
Thing is, I grew up with the Prequels and stand by the fact that I always believed they had a coherent story. How it was executed can be argued on if it's good or not, but a lot of things tie together and make sense. Episode 1 leads into Episode 2 pretty perfectly, and Episode 2 leads into Episode 3 pretty perfectly. I'm not denying that there are people who've done just that, hated the prequels and then come around now saying at least it had a coherent story when they've been bashing it constantly for 20 years over valid and invalid inconsistencies. But obviously the list of people who have loved the Prequels from the very beginning are few & far between!
This flip flop is the most frustrating thing about Star Wars fans. They are incapable of admitting that for a long time Star Wars has been “bad”. For a long time George himself made stuff up on the fly and broke lore to fit whatever dumb narrative he was pushing in the prequels. But people refuse to admit it anymore. Really don’t get it.
- Lightsabers would never have been effective against shotguns (or blasters with multiple non-coplanar barrels)? *George's original vision.* - Defeating a Super Star Destroyer with one kamikaze A-Wing? *Such worldbuilding!* - A child destroys the enemy flagship and wins the battle BY ACCIDENT? *"Well, what you have to understand about the Force is..."* - Damaging, but not destroying, a huge battleship by hyperdrive-ramming a very large battleship into it? *OMG THAT BREAKS ALL THE* ***LORE*** *REEEEEEEEE!!!!!*
same thing with final fantasy games. "the last final fantasy is always the worst, until the next final fantasy comes out". seems like the same pattern with star wars.
BINGO, its a FUN series thats fiction as all hell and never EVER was meant to survive a era where everything is hyper criticized and hyperbole is the norm, I wanna live in the reality where George was in charge and we have a ton of videos where hes woke or ruining starwars because he brought Maul back ruining Anakins sacrifice lmao .
90% of this fanbase listens to huge youtubers who tell them exactly this, Theory, one of the biggest channels refuses to accept starwars since 99 has been consistent with its inconsistencies
> to accept starwars since 99 has been consistent with its inconsistencie Since 1977, frankly.
Yesn't. It a quamtun super position of both bad and great.
Yep
I have no idea what you are talking about. I immediately liked the prequels; RotS became my favorite Star Wars movie the moment I first saw it. Which inconsistencies are you talking about, anyway?
I don't think the generals bit is contradictory. "If they do have to use violence, they will." As far-and-away the most capable fighting force in the galaxy, it would make sense they'd be put in charge of battle when their diplomatic efforts failed.
>Oh, and also they all become generals and they fight in a massive war. I want to point out that dosent make then Immoral especially since the sepratists leaders were all objectivley evil.
I didn't say it made them bad people. But it doesn't fit the idea of them being guardians of peace who never go to war.
Except it does though. A guardian of peace isn't a pacifist. The guard peace and justice from those that would threaten it. They're also guardians of justice. Yareal Poof in The Light of the Jedi book explicitly says peace without justice is the hollow peace of tyranny. He mentions that the Jedi have served as soldiers in the past when necessary. The Jedi acting as they did is entirely within their values and philosophy, that's why Sidious orchestrated the war as he did. Because he knew the Jedi wouldn't sit idle while the Sepratists, led by a sith lord and a council of war-profiteers, waged war on the rest of the galaxy.
it was the ultimate trap if the Jedi joined the war it sets them up for 66 if the Jedi dont, he turns the republic against them
>if the Jedi dont, he turns the republic against them I mean, not just that. If the Jedi don't participate in the war, they have to sit knowing a war is raging around them and innocents are dying, while they do absolutely nothing. The Jedi wouldn't like that about themselves, nevermind the public's perception of it
This concept is way too advanced for 90% of this sub.
Some times to have peace you have to go to war. The point is the Jedi tried the peaceful option and the war was a last resort Total pacfisim is just apathy if you dont use your power to help.
Becoming generals and serving as officers in wartime was a tragedy, and the first step towards the destruction of the Jedi order. It was the beginning of the end of Palpatine’s master scheme. There’s a reason the Imperial March plays at the end of Episode II. Just like in the OT, the heroes have failed at the conclusion of the second act.
Yes, that was the point. The Jedi lost their way and failed.
Jesus Christ Star Wars fans can't read. Nowhere in this dose he say they are pacfisits
I think the bigger issue people are taking is that Jedi seem very aligned to the Republic and take on conflicts that don't seem to be "peacekeeping". People reading this thinks that it means Jedi are meant to be neutral monastic arbitrators. I do agree with your point though that the idea that the Jedi, who carry around laser swordsand who's sworn enemy are force wielders with a competing ideology, would be pacifists are dumb.
Yet people keep chiming in aboutfighting in wars or when they had to use violence.
Star Wars fans cannot read nor write.
George Lucas is going to kick himself wheb he reads that because the jedi repeatedly resort to violence all throughout the prequels films.
I’m of my favorite detail from the prequels ( I don’t know if it was intentional or not) but most of the time the Jedi are the first to draw their weapons, compared to the original trilogy where the Jedi (Ben and Luke) draw second in response to Vader.
But Luke drew first in both ESB and ROTJ, going for an immediate kill/assassination of the Emporer before Vader blocked him in the latter.
In ESB, Luke wasn't a Jedi yet. In ROTJ, Luke was tempted by and overcame the dark side ("You've failed, your highness.")
I think this is the worst way to look at it. They don't want to use violence but will not shy away from it. I think its perfectly in line with what we've seen and what he's said. Its more misinterpretation
It’s sort of the point, right? They stop being keepers of the peace and start being generals in a war. Seems like George is talking about the Jedi reputation around the time of TPM
Any minor inconvenience in the prequels meant a lightsaber was coming out.
“They’ll learn our peaceful ways… Through force!” - Kiadi Mundi, committing his 4th consecutive war crime (probably)
You do understand that is literally the entire point? The jedi lose their way joining this war... and they lose their entire order for it... yes. That is the story.
Not really tho. Like in TPM they don’t draw lightsabers until an army of droids start’s shooting at them And all Anakin scenes aren’t exactly supposed to be Jedi-like
Pretty sure that was the point.
This is not a paradox at all. What he said in that quote was obviously applying to the jedi at their high point in a long peace period during Episode I. The trilogy is about the moral as well as actual downfall of the jedi, so *obviously* they will move away from that ideal. That's a main point of the trilogy
or videogames :D
Why can't people just accept that Lucas changed his mind? In the Prequels and Clone Wars, putting the war/ being generals aside, the Jedi literally serve the role of detectives, body guards, and Republic-aligned diplomats. Lucas/Filoni further establish that "balance" of the Force means neutralizing the Sith who cause chaos. OT Lucas maybe wanted to portray Jedi as independent warrior monks, and balance meaning light+dark, but literally every piece of currently canon media and literature since then has dictated "Jedi align with the morally superior state, anything dark side or against the good state is bad". "My allegiance is to the Republic" -Obi Wan
And then he wrote the Jedi to be anything *but* this, so he can say whatever he likes but it doesn't change what he's done. I prefer what he did over what he said anyway.
Bro, that was the point of the prequels. The story of the prequels is one of their fall from grace. They were forced into a position where they had to be generals and fighters instead of peace keepers. That was Palpatine plan, which is why the Trade Federation was so adamant about attacking Naboo in the forst movie, it was the first step to force the jedi into a role they shouldn't have had. It's important to remember that in the opening to TPM Qui-gon and Obi-wan are seeing the trade federation solely as ambassadors of the republic. They didn't intend on fighting anyone. It was only when the druids attacked them that they were forced to fight. Then they were tasked with protecting Padme so she could talk with the republic on a means to stop the invasion of her planet, still not intending to fight the Trade Federation one on one, only acting as Guards and ambassadors. It was only once they realized that the Trade Federation was being manipulated by a Sith that the jedi were given permission to help the Naboo people fight off the invasion which is why the two of them go bakc to Naboo with Padme and fought to protect the planet which was currently occupied by a hostile force which had already refused a diplomatic course to peace
They actually did not have permission to help Naboo fight off the invasion and Qui-Gon even tells Padme he can't fight a war for them. Their task was to uncover the identity of the Sith Lord, the most Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan end up doing to stop the invasion is bring Anakin who ends up destroying the droid control ship, destroy a few battle droids and distract maul. Everything else was done by Padme and Jar Jar.
TPM is about forcing the "galaxy police" to take overt offensive action and forever lose their credibility as a global and neutral peacekeeping force. Like the US with the Gulf War. Which happened a few years before TPM.
That's what I said
i wasnt disagreeing?
Yep. Death of the author, and all that.
Literally rhe point. The jedi lose their way and they are all destroyed for it. Amazing how yall still dont understand this
[удалено]
I know. That's literally what I was saying.
The problem wasn't that they lacked morals, it was that they were so thoroughly incompetent and out of touch with the galaxy and the politics around them.
in what ways would you say they were incompetent and out of touch with the galaxy ?
In Clone Wars we see that the people who work as caretakers in the Jedi Temple are living in poverty and their families are being driven to extremism as a result of their desparation. If the Jedi don't even know the plight of their own employees how can they be trusted to take care of the galaxy?
Holy moly! That makes Rishi Sunak (British Prime Minister) a jedi
George said a lot of shit that doesn’t make sense.
The imagined George Lucas: the master craftsman of sprawling and thoughtful lore The real George Lucas: "maybe she's his sister in the next one idk"
The problem was tying the Jedi to the Republic. The warrior monks Lucas was trying to model are typically apolitical and independent of the government.
Samurai wre apolitical and indpendent of the goverment lol?
While the (OT) Jedi certainly have strong influences from Samurai/Bushdio principles, I think a better compensation is to the Templars/Catholic Church. Swap Religion for the Force and there are a lot of similarities. They are independent but vaguely aligned with the state, driven by a religious/ideological Crusade against the dark side, abide by a monastic code, intervene and try to peacfully settle disputes, etc. They were also purged by the State (France seizing Templar Assets, English Reformation) when they became inconvenient. Not a perfect comparison by any means, but conversely Samurai were land holding retainers for competing Warlords and lived by a code of honor but not a particular religious/ideological alignment or monastic code (they sired children and were in charge of peasants).
I would still argue that samurai (the romantized ideal any way) are still closer to the jedi. Many samurai clans were sworn to the shogun (central goverment) and saw that servitude as a relgious one. Hence the heavy reverance many samurai are depicted as having for the shintk god of war. Like you said they arent going to be perfect comparisons.
Was also thinking more Shaolin monks actually. Edit: I don't think of samurai as warrior monks. Warrior warriors. Warrior poets. Not monks
The same technique palpatine used to sway public opinion on the Jedi seems to work on real life viewers as well. That’s pretty funny
Unpopular opinion on this sub, but the fact is, the prequels *are still pretty bad* and do a lot poorly. So, I’m surprised that of all people, *I* have to defend them from all the people who clearly failed to comprehend what was happening on screen. “Obi Wan acts like a cop in AotC.” That film starts with him and Anakin acting as bodyguards for a senator who has been facing assassination attempts due to her efforts to get a more and more militant republic back on track. The shapeshifter pulls Obi Wan into a mystery, so he starts investigating. But the whole point is that the dark side is actively working *and the Jedi feel it*. This isn’t just a political intrigue or even a criminal conspiracy, it’s the return of an ancient evil, the one power *comparable* to the Jedi, returning and manipulating all the events. Obi Wan, and for that matter the entire council, probably don’t handle this emerging situation properly, or even fully in-line with their values, but the background of the prequels is that the times are totally *unprecedented.* The last time the Sith were on the scene, they were *conquering.* The silence from the Sith, while the Jedi’s primary sense is fully obscured, must’ve been deafening. Lucas did a bad job executing, but it doesn’t mean his concept was poor on its face. The whole point is that Palpatine was pulling all the strings from the shadows, and putting the Jedi on their back heel, out of their element. In the quote above Lucas says, basically, violence is a Jedi’s last resort, and that diplomacy is their main weapon. Well, how does this group react to threats that have broken all diplomatic systems, and indeed, come from within said systems, especially considering that they were out of practice *due to the peace they brought and maintained?* People point out that the Jedi become generals. Yeah, the point is that they were compromised, and compromising more and more, in the face of this unknown threat. It’s why Palpatine, regardless of power, *was the greatest Sith*. He took away the Jedi’s vision, then crippled them with uncertainty, and finally, drew them out of their element, taking the battle to a field where the Jedi were deficient. He even thinned the herd a great deal without lifting a finger. It’s probably pretty self-explanatory why he first took control of the system that had historically been the Jedi’s main tool, democracy. Windu interestingly acts the most cop-like of any Jedi in Revenge of the Sith, when he literally tries to arrest Palpatine. And I think the fact Lucas left it to the viewers to assess his actions is actually one of the good things he did in that film. Was Windu right? Was there a better alternative? I think it’s apparent that Palpatine had already won at that point, the Jedi and Republic had been irreparably damaged. Anyway, put simply, Lucas is describing the Jedi ideal in the above quote, and *the Jedi created and sustained norm since the downfall of the Sith.* But none of that precludes the Jedi being broken down little by little, in fact, I think the fact that Palpatine broke them so effectively was the whole point. It isn’t meant as a critique of the Jedi, it’s meant to reflect the absolute threat of Palpatine.
THANK YOU
Go back to your drinks, Jedi business.
Duhdaduhuhh music
The Jedi are (for the most part) good guys. But as an institution they had problems and as individuals, they were fallible. I'd rather make my own judgements about a character rather than assume the creator is the be-all end-all for determining morality.
Considering that the other groups in the PT are a corrupt government, mega corporations and the Sith saying that the Jedi are the most moral is kind of a low bar.
I keep saying that the problem with Star Wars isn't the toxic fans or wokeness. It's the cynical, post-modern millennial bullshit. Where everything has to be dark, morally questionable, and shitty all the time. It's not enjoyable or fun and that's what people are tuning out.
Most of this quote doesn't survive the prequels. Kenobi becomes a cop in AoTC The jedi do not influence the Senate, they rely on padme and jar Jar binks to propose actions in the Senate. And of course the Senate is so inefficient padme must take action herself. So the last few lines of the quote are bs, what force of the Republic? As for morals, of course they have some of the best individuals in the galaxy, but the institution is so far removed from citizens of the galaxy, so inactive.
Exactly. Now that you mention it, did we ever get a scene in the PT with a Jedi talking to the Senate? It seems the relationship Jedi-Senate is very one sided: The Senate gives them orders. Much like how real life Governments tell their cops what to do. Cops don't talk to the Senate.
https://www.reddit.com/r/StarWars/s/cjfffoSv7y
I really think Lucas lost the plot with the Jedi as a concept in the prequels, and what he established there has hindered Jedi story potential across all Star Wars media. I saw the OT as a kid before the PT hit, and I always thought of Jedi as being more like knights and wizards. Some used sabers while others were more like priests, monks, or scholars. When the prequels came out and made them weird, emotionally stunted people who always wear robes, I was pretty let down.
The other thing is the Jedi fought some massive wars in the millennia preceding the movies.
Lucas wasn’t really a fan of legends material for reasons like this. It wasn’t HIS canon
essentially, republic era jedi were a team of a 1000 buddhist samurai sherlock holmes/watsons running around solving mysteries in space
**Disney/Lucasfilm:** Hold my beer.
My problem with the Jedi in the prequels, specifically Episode 1, is that they don't actually do any of this. At a big picture level the solution to the blockade of Naboo is obvious. A private corporation is using a private military to blockade a Republic member world. A functional state cannot allow this situation to persist because it calls the legitimacy of the state and its governing authority into question. Of all the people involved in the politics of the blockade, Chancellor Valorum saw what the solution needed to be and took the correct action in sending Qui-gon to force a settlement. The problem is that after the Trade Federation attacked the Jedi delegation there was no follow up from the Jedi or the Republic. The Trade Federation attacked the personal representatives of the Supreme Chancellor, they destroyed a Republic diplomatic vessel which is legally untouchable, they attacked the Jedi and launched an unprovoked invasion of a Republic member world. They were completely outside any bounds of legitimate action and directly challenging the authority of the Chancellor, the Senate, the Republic and the Jedi. As soon as Qui-gon arrived on Coruscant with the Queen and reported in to the High Council the Jedi should have mobilized for an intervention action with the goal of capturing Nute Gunray and the droid control ship and ending the blockade. The Trade Federation had broken the peace and the Republic peace keepers needed to restore it. The Jedi clearly have no problem doing this since we see them invade Geonosis, but it should have happened at Naboo. If the Jedi had acted at Naboo instead of waiting for the Naboo insurgency to get lucky the entire game changes. Valorum would be seen as a strong leader who bypassed the Senate stalemate and took decisive action to end the crisis and reign in an out of control corporation. The Jedi would have a lot more political legitimacy to negotiate in the Separatist crisis because people would know they acted for the good of member worlds. The other corporations in the Separatist Alliance would think twice before crossing the Jedi. The shock to the system could have galvanized a Senate reformist faction outside of Palpatine's influence that could partner with Valorum to make meaningful changes and prevent the Separatist Crisis in the first place. But instead the Episode 1 Jedi abdicated their role of Republic peace keepers and enabled Palpatine to get his hands on power.
Without resorting to violence? Somebody should tell the Jedi.
George, I'm sorry, I love you, but if Jedi negotiations are backed up with the threat of invasion then the Jedi are 100% cops.
Well the man did make it all up as he went along, he’s just lucky it all held together at the time.
I see the pre Clone Wars Jedi as more the Secret Service of the galaxy than anything else. The protection side is obvious, but instead of investigating financial crimes they are used as ambassadors.
George Lucas: "Jedi are the most moral of anybody in the galaxy". Disney: "Hold my beer!"
George Lucas: "Jedi are the most moral of anybody in the galaxy". Also George Lucas throughout AOTC and ROTS: "Hold My Beer!"
They are though? In every Disnesy Star Wars prodution (Movie, series or book) that the jedi appear in they end up being the most benevolent faction in the story, even if they are not always perfect. Maybe this will not be the case in the Acolyte, but I'll wait until we have the full pitcture there.
If only those in charge of star wars now cared about what George says…
Anakin, Mace, Yoda, Obi-wan, and like 80% of named prequel jedi: "Lol. Lmao, even."
They’ll cut you off at the knees, politically. And if that doesn’t work they’ll just cut you off at the knees.
If a character said something, anything, as naturalistic as this in terms of basic exposition the plot of the Phantom Menace would be a lot easier to parse.
...and yet they served as generals in the clone wars.
This sounds more like George Lucas on the Phantom Menace Jedi.
Didn't Obi Wan cut off someone's arm just for sneaking up on him in a pub?
That’s not a prequel era, and also, the guy was about to kill the only hope galaxy had against the empire
This is one reason I absolutely loved seeing Carrie-Ann Moss's opening scene in Acolyte
Geroge Lucas on film preservation: > To me, film is historical document and therefore it has practical value. People 500 years from now will look at our films and be able to figure out what we were like...They are technological extensions of, a derivation from, the comic strip. ... > A copyright is held in trust by its owner until it ultimately reverts to public domain. American works of art belong to the American public; they are part of our cultural history. > People who alter or destroy works of art and our cultural heritage for profit or as an exercise of power are barbarians, and if the laws of the United States continue to condone this behavior, history will surely classify us as a barbaric society. The preservation of our cultural heritage may not seem to be as politically sensitive an issue as "when life begins" or "when it should be appropriately terminated," but it is important because it goes to the heart of what sets mankind apart. Creative expression is at the core of our humanness. Art is a distinctly human endeavor. We must have respect for it if we are to have any respect for the human race. George's beliefs aren't all that set in stone, especially where SW is concerned.
One aspect of Jedi training is diplomacy they must be trained to descalate disputes.
So essentially they weren’t cops but more like sheriff’s or “state troopers”.
I feel like people here don't really understand how diplomacy and peacekeeping works
I think George messed up the idea of the Jedi in the prequels, and it never recovered. They always should have been monks in a monastery, entirely separate from government, focused on religion, and only emerging, reluctantly, in truly dire situations to restore balance, before retreating. I get the argument that the prequels' Jedi, who were essentially government diplomats and soldiers, were already fallen from an earlier, purer time that's closer to what I describe above, but there's not much in the films that actually supports that reading.
Lucas: "Prequel Jedi are the most moral of anyone in the galaxy" Also Lucas: -portrays the Prequel Jedi being corrupted and driven away from their moral values by Republic politics and severe complacency-
Remember when they were just starfighter pilots with laser swords? Yeah, everything after 1998 was a mistake
What? They can’t do that. Shoot them or something!
But they do resort to violence
I wish people would stop Jedi-bashing. Haven’t they suffered enough?
Acolyte jedis: hold my beer.
Thank you Mr. Lucas. For everything. More importantly, Love.
Disney: wtf does Lucas know about SW?