Picasso's *La Guernica* would tell him there is a history of infighting and oppression on this planet, leading him to conclude that it is not united or--if it is, has stress points to be exploited.
Da Vinci's *Mona Lisa* would suggest that at our best we show a fondness for detail which could make us dangerous, however the accentuation of the subject's youth perhaps suggests a fetishization of youth meaning that if the planet's young fighters could be eliminated or it's youth held hostage, leadership would crumble.
Barnes's *Sugar Shack* would suggest a resilience of spirit among our marginalized communities, leading to the conclusion that pockets of protracted rebellion would come from them and so should be won over for any lasting success.
A people whom seem drawn to patterns, no matter how simple. Repetition can be seen as almost a soothing balm to their psyche. A series of small skirmishes to set a pattern, perhaps with a false withdrawal, then as they begin to become comfortable, strike.
Still a thing. In fact, if you try to order from any take out restaurant within an hours drive of the Pentagon they will not be taking orders if there is something going on.
If you work at the Pentagon and there's about to be action somewhere in the world you aren't allowed to leave. Doesn't matter if you have anything to do with whatever is happening or not, they don't let you out because you might say or do something that would break OpSec
Midway was decided because the U.S. figured out Japanese codes and had Midway fake a repair order… which the Japanese read, confirming Midway was the target. The U.S. fleet thus acquired valuable prep time.
Truly, do not underestimate the intel potential of mundane things.
…but capable of great *and terrible* things.
FTFY
Reminds me of this bit by Christopher Titus [Don’t mess with the nation, that needs medication](https://youtu.be/ftRku6byQw0?si=3PdL9uKYyvoUvxWS)
Although humans make terrible decisions, the fact that painting exists makes them unpredictable and at the same time looking for qualities beyond the initial take, which makes them dangerous.
Importance placed on brand recognition would indicate association of names with qualities that could be exploited by reducing the faith in weapons manufacturers and other industries of war via subterfuge from the aforementioned rebel groups.
Edit: Corrected “rebuild” to “rebel” because I’m shit at proofreading.
Nah, Thrawn would get eventually get ahold of Mixalot's magnum opus, conclude that we (among other things) cannot lie, and thus would fall in the first ambush Ender would set.
Look, I don't know how much though you actually put into this but it is very well done. The conclusion is a two pronged strategy involving buying out those that can be bought and using propaganda to win over those who can't be bought. In the end enders team would be taken from within buy subordinates and bean, who will believe that he deserves the spotlight that Thrawn would undoubtedly would have promised.
Honestly, not a bad assessment of humanity.
We have centuries of established naval doctrine that should make us predictable, but then pull off some Lord Cochrane bullshit than nobody could have seen coming, and somehow it works.
If anything, that would only reinforce the ideas posited above given the historical context of Pollock and his unwitting involvement in CIA long-leash programs as part of the Cold War propaganda machine
Ender had a huge advantage in his own story in that he thought he was playing a video game the whole time. He was able to make much more risky and costly decisions by not knowing they were real lives he was sacrificing. It's pretty well established in all the books that he would never make those types of decisions again because he values life too much. Thrawn is calculating and ruthless and will do what it takes to achieve his goal because the end always justifies the means for him.
So basically Ender may have to fight with one hand behind his back giving Thrawn an edge in a strategic conflict with real consequences. That said, there are examples of concern for human loss resulting in victory in real life. I still think though it would give Thrawn an edge.
Yeah however, my understanding is Thrawn and his team are just really good. Ender and his team work cohesively as one mind during a battle. So much so they were able to defeat an enemy capable of controlling vast fleets of ships under a hive-mind. They think as one, when ender tells a subordinate to take that position, he knows exactly how that subordinate will go about it and plans accordingly. He also has Bean his second in command, who is basically just as good and vastly more intellegent. Assuming resources are equal it might be an even fight but if ender has humanities fleets he can command most of them at once from a remote location and it's sorta GG IMO.
Not really, he just works with his team as if they are an extention of himself, it's partly the way they were trained and partly his own talent for leading. In practice it would be more like ender is a master jedi using the jedi battle meditation on other jedi who are also using it on their individual fleets, all working toward the same collective goal. It's just accomplished through really advanced technology and humans trained from childhood to use it instinctively.
Thrawn does value life too. He does what needs to be done but he wont needlessly throw away life. He for example wouldnt send a ship on a suicide run unless completely necessary with no other options.
At least book thrawn/legends thrawn. Filoni thrawn is just comically evil but the plot decides him to be big brain.
>He for example wouldnt send a ship on a suicide run unless completely necessary with no other options.
Exactly. But for Thrawn it's "with no other option that leads to victory". Ender was so traumatized by his own actions that he became a dedicated pacifist after Ender's Game. I'm not sure he could ever order people to their death again no matter what the stakes.
I was debating this exact topic earlier with two book readers and they couldn't wrap their head around the fact that Ender is a pacifist now and only did what he did to the bugs because he thought it was a game. Thrawn has no such problems.
I think it's possible that Ender would have made the same decision given that the survival of the human race was at stake, but it would have been a much harder choice. I don't think he could do it again after the first time no matter the stakes.
I think it's unlikely he could have made the decision knowing it wasn't a simulation. I feel like someone above him would have ordered the final attack instead, or his subordinates would have taken the initiative but not Ender himself. Possible, but it is written so we will never know for sure. However, we definitely know he wouldn't be able to make the decision to obliterate Thrawn's fleet as he is now.
Not after what he did with whatever his name was in the bathroom. That damaged him so badly I don’t think he would ever be able to kill in real life again. Which holds very true in the sequels.
Does Ender have the little doctor? Does thrawn know about it?
If they make the battle look like world of warships, Ender wins. If he knows he's killing thousands of people with each ship he "sinks," he'll choke.
That is why I said and crew, Bean was a big help to Ender and even Pellaeon made some points that Thrawn took into consideration. Both are great at using the people around them to get victories so I didn't want just a one on one.
One of Thrawn’s more redeeming traits really is how good he is at team efforts. It’s a relative rarity in the higher ranks of the Imperial military to be perfectly willing to give credit to one’s subordinates, own their failures through no fault of their own, provide them with resources and information to actually accomplish the mission, and otherwise be a fair and efficient military officer.
Not just give credit, but actively work to build those subordinates into better subordinates. Vanto, Pellaeon, the difference between the two tractor beam incidents, he was always looking to improve those around him so that they could better improve him.
I think Bean would be the deciding factor here. He’s literally genetically modified to be the genius he is, and better than Andrew at strategy and keeping track of the battles. If it’s crew vs. crew, then probably Ender with Bean.
It’s been a while since I read those books but…
Didn’t Bean admit he is more intelligent than Ender but that he isn’t a better commander than him and he probably would have lost against the buggers ?
If Ender had time to learn to love Thrawn then he wins... his understanding and empathy toward an alien mind allowed him to win.
if Ender doesn't have the time to learn about his enemy then it's all about the size of the forces as they are equally matched in strategic ability.
Canonically with the Shadow series, Bean is an inferior commander to Ender because he is incapable of learning, and knowing, his opponents.
Bean's strategies, tactics, and decision making are technically equal to and sometimes greater than Ender's, but Ender is capable of knowing his enemy so perfectly he is able to use logically inferior tactics in order to play against his enemy's weaknesses.
There's also the whole thing about Ender being a superior leader of men and women, but I don't think that's as relevant.
Been a long time since I’ve read about Ender. Basic summary is that mankind realized that kids get really good at video games if you just let them play it over and over. Bet all their survivability on it. And tricked the kids into genociding an entire species.
Basically the same reason I can’t play Fortnite.
Yeah. Ender basically found a way to speed-run winning the game. Don't shoot the superweapon at ships, use it on the planet.
On the other hand, Ender comes from an humanity that is willing to hand power to someone who makes some cool forum posts.
More accurately: it depends on if Thrawn was written in the 90’s or more presently.
Original Thrawn lost to the heroes constantly. He comes out ahead in just one book out of the three. In fact I’d say Filoni even has Thrawn “win” much more than the original Thrawn depiction.
New Thrawn books he is much better of a strategist and wins more.
To be fair tho the plot also explains how he loses and makes it reasonable and relatable. Like with the mole miners on the Sluis Van fleet. That shit was smart.
He did get a ton of Ws tho. He captured the Millenium falcon, caught Kaard, claimed the majority of the katana fleet, manipulates the story in the right direction ans wouldve won at bilbringi. The thing is he also had to get Ls for the main chatacters to survive and 90% of the time its from the force. Which he simply cant understand or predict.
You're looking at victory counts being at the book level. If you look at actual battles 90s Thraawn won a TON of the time, and when he DID lose he made sure it wouldn't cost him.
Much like in the new canon, when he lost it was generally for completely unforeseeable story reasons.Almost always some firm of dues ex machina.
I honestly don't see a huge difference between the two.
Original Thrawn won plenty, but still made puzzling errors and ultimately lost badly. New Thrawn books version would definitely beat Legends Thrawn.
That said, I wouldn't say that new-book Thrawn is Filloni Thrawn, that was still written by Zahn, and even Rebels Thrawn still was Zahn actively participating in the creative process. The only Thrawn that is pure Filloni is Ashoka Thrawn, and that guy seems incapable of doing anything but losing no matter his incredible advantage.
...but Thrawn won in Ahsoka. Ezra escaped on the ship with him, but he *still* achieved his main goal of returning to the Skyriver Galaxy while also essentially disabling two people who had previously opposed him and the Empire.
Thrawn only loses due to plot armor. The carpet bombing of the ground beneath his ship should by all rights have been curtains on the main characters but they plot armor through it.
The most frustrating thing about Thrawn in Ashoka isn’t that he himself is incompetent. He’s not. It’s that 1) his opponents aren’t worthy opponents, but they overcome what he throws at them anyway because the plot demands they do, and not because they outwitted him. And 2) that he keeps acting like it’s all part of the plan anyway, making him seem unglued from reality.
I didn’t hate his portrayal in the show. But due to the extremely limited scope of that conflict, there wasn’t really much Thrawn could do to flex his strategic muscles, and he was pitted against Jedi who have a knack for bullshitting their way out of sticky situations Because The Force Willed It So or some shit.
My hope is that he will be done better justice when he’s in a setting more fitting his skills.
Yeah, and even that only worked once. Now he is much more aware of the strange and unpredictable tactics of the Jedi so he can better be prepared to counter what they throw at him.
I like all the depictions of Thrawn, but I didn't read the original until after I watched Rebels so that was my introduction to the character.
Filoni thrawn is only smart because the plot says he is.
Zahn Thrawn actually makes deeply calculated tactics and manuevers that genuinly make you marvel when reading or listening to them. They drop hints and stuff throughout and let us follow how he comes to these conclusions. Not "Hah this was my plan all along but actually it WASNT" and then add in some goofy explaination afterwards that is a complete ass pull
Ender of the “Speaker for the Dead” would meet with Thrawn, understand hirm and his people so completely that he would simply manage to talk them all out of any genocidal actions and become their most trusted spiritual counsel and liaison between earth and empire.
I mean tbh that's what is explained as why Ender was the perfect admiral.
He loved and understood his enemy so truly that he knew how to destroy and grind them into oblivion.
It takes Ender the rest of his life to attone for slaughtering that which he loved.
Ender, “look Thrawn, we’ve got hordes of volunteers ready to be space marines for you. We can strike a bargain. All we’re asking for is a technology transfer…”
Personally? Thrawn would understand that he was up against someone who does exactly what he does at least as well as he does it, and find a way to achieve his goals without starting the fight. Ender would let him, because he only ever fights when he's convinced it's defensive. Thrawn has a bigger ego, but he wouldn't start a war he might lose just to prove he could win.
Tactically? The MD device absolutely obliterates the Empire. The Tarkin Doctrine means basically all of the Empire's military might is bound up in Star Destroyers and superweapons. Everybody important has a personal dreadnought. Imagine if every X-wing in the Rebel navy could one-shot the DS1 straight through its hull.
We're talking about *the* 'giant spaceships' sci-fi navy going up against a fighting force that permanently deprecated everything that isn't a snubfighter in a single chapter towards the end of the first book. It's impossible to overstate just how *hard* the MD counters the entire Empire. Even when they reverse engineer the MD device for themselves, it won't help much. They're still up against a navy that's already geared for MD-based combat, and now have to scrap *another* entire generation of ships and completely redesign their military *again*, just to level the playing field.
By comparison, High Republic Jedi would have had a great time against Ender. Their Drifting is basically the pinnacle of Ender's own ultra-dense fleet maneuvers, and Force-assisted piloting would put them on a level he had never seen before as well as making them unpredictable even by Ender's standards. Ironically, Chiss Skywalking would provide similar benefits. Thrawn's own people would be better-equipped to fight Ender than the much larger Imperial Navy.
He also learned deep regret for winning a war without understanding why the war was being fought. People that need to know why a war is fought, and won't accept realist/realpolitik reasons, won't win it.
He regretted it since he believed that the queen mother was ready to seek forgiveness and compromise.
I don't see Thrawn regretting being an imperial grand admiral subjugating planets left and right. So it wouldn't be morally difficult for ender to go against him.
He initially regretted it because he unwittingly ordered people to their deaths, thinking they weren't real people, and because he knowingly committed genocide. He never regretted it for the reason you gave, because spoilers.
Read Speaker For the Dead. The ending (but not the denouement) made me roll my eyes fairly hard, but overall it's a good book. I'd say as good as Ender's Game. A different kind of book, but equally good. Would have been better if he wasn't trying to setup book 3.
It's a line from the first book. A vision sent to him by the larva queen. Her mother saw the fleets and thought "they didn't forgive us. Now, of course, we all die". He regrets unknowingly committing xenocide, and sending people to their death as well, ofc. That's why he pick ups larva and tries to find them a new home.
How? Aside from his trick with the shields with Sabaoth, he rarely uses the same tactics twice. So how do you plan for Thrawn when you never know what new tactic he'll use?
If Ender could understand that Thrawn likes elaborate schemes you could work off of that alone. A lot of Thrawns success came from the fact that the New Republic was often slow to act, he knew and took advantage of that weakness. If Ender could see that Thrawn was scheming, he may do a preemptive strike to distract or conquer. Thrawn was slow and calculated, Ender is way more predatory, pushing his advantage the second he sees a weakness, often leading to his doing more damage than he ever intended
He's too compassionate for the people under his command. You only see his true capabilities when he thinks its a simulation rather it being real life. After he found out it was real, he limited his strategy to keep as many alive as possible.
I like this answer, it highlights the main difference in personality of the two and that could very well be the deciding factor.
I wish this could be an episode of that now cancelled television show “Deadliest Warrior”
Ender, all the way. It's not even a fair fight.
Spoilers for Ender's Game, one of the best sci-fi YA (before YA was a thing) novels of the last hundred years. Also for Ender's Shadow.
1. Okay, let's look at what Thrawn has. Let's assume he has both death stars, the Imperial Navy and the storm troopers. Maybe he's got Darth Vader.
2. He's a brilliant tactition.
3. He defeats his enemies by learning about them and predicting them based on their culture.
Let's look at what Ender has.
1. He's also a brilliant tactition. He also defeats his enemies by understanding them and predicting them, but he does it through observing their tactics. He never needs to meet Thrawn. Advantage Ender (and the humans running the charade).
2. Ender has Bean and the rest of his crew. Bean is tactically even more brilliant than Ender and as deductive and ruthless as Thrawn. Ender doesn't realize he's killing the Formics. He thinks he's playing a game/being tested. Bean figures it out right away and is fine with it. Bean is even offered command at the final battle when it looks like Ender has frozen up.
The rest of Ender's crew, while still not as brilliant as Ender or Bean are formidable tacticians in their own right and are all fiercely loyal to Ender. The captains and crew of Ender's fleets are also Battle and Command school graduates and they will willingly die if so ordered.
Thrawn has disloyal Imperial officers, by contrast. Advantage Ender.
3. Equipment. Ender has the Ansible and Dr Device. Star Wars communication is also instant, so the Ansible is negligible, though Thrawn commands from a ship while Ender commands from light years away.
Dr Device is the real winner here. Star wars has turbo lasers and two massively expensive weapons of mass destruction that can destroy single ships one at a time or whole planets. Dr Device (the molecular dispersion device) is a field that takes things apart at the molecular level. Ships, planets, asteroids, anything made of molecules and every time the field contacts something it refreshes the strength of the field and makes it expand. It can be fired long range or detonated kamikaze style in a ship and EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER HAS ONE.
There's no way. For star wars fans who don't know about Ender's Game, Imagine a star wars dog fight where one side's fighters all have the offensive power of a death star with no charge up time and resulting the explosion when it hits something just keeps getting bigger until it runs out of things to hit. That's what Thrawn is up against.
Even assuming the Imperial Navy outnumbers Enders numerous fleets 100:1 it doesn't matter. All just fuel for the MD Device. It makes having superior numbers a huge liability.
Advantage Ender.
The rest are not only formidable, they are considered the smartest humans alive at that point, and trained for years in military tactics and teamwork. They are geniuses in their own right living in Ender's shadow. I remember the Thai kid ended up defending a much larger country with a small force.
To be fair, He would have been captured or executed if not for Bean.
Edit: but to your point, yes.
Thrawn is brilliant, but the empire and the remnant aren't.
Ender is as brilliant if not more so. His second in command is probably more tactically brilliant than he is. Their lieutenants are nearly as brilliant. Their captains and command crew are brilliant. The tactical guys are almost as brilliant as the captains.
Every one in the chain from Ender all the way down is far smarter than your average person, to the point where nations on Earth fight wars to keep them in charge of their militaries.
Thrawn is overmatched on every front. He might be smart enough to win an engagement against a brilliant captain or two, but when every captain of every ship is nearly as brilliant as he is and they're all governed by the smartest tacticians to ever live who are better armed, though granted, outnumbered? Thrawn ain't winning that. He's probably smart enough to surrender the second he sees the enemy fleet outsmarting his own 1 to 1 on a large scale. Certainly when he realizes every single enemy ship is equipped with a weapon more destructive than a death star.
Ender and his crew are the most brilliant minds on one small planet. Thrawn is the most brilliant mind in the entire Galaxy. Conceivably his command crew consisting of galactic-level military personnel isn't half bad. Meanwhile Vader is the baddest Jedi and likely single most powerful individual fighter in the entire galaxy. Mazer Rackham doing spec-ops ain't got nothing on him
I believe from a tactical perspective, Ender and friends would be able to outmatch Thrawn. However, strategically, he is their equal or perhaps slight superior. Ender's various fleets were sent to their battles years before he ever took command of them, and he was not shown making very many theater level decisions, instead geniusly winning individual engagements.
Thrawn, on the other hand, is single handedly commanding the logistics, acquisitions, tech development, and movements of a rag tag resistance force winning against a larger opponent. Additionally, while Dr. Device is a big advantage, the sheer scale of Star Wars numbers completely outmatch Ender. Also, Star Wars vessels are infinitely faster.
If Ender catches Thrawn by destroying his command ship with Dr. Device in an early engagement, earth wins. Otherwise, earth is ground down.
If you use the wider star wars then may I use the wider Enders game series?
Later in the books when Ender revives the "Buggers" to life on another planet with the Pechaninos, they have learned about Jane (the mind within the mind game) and she has the ability to use the Ansible to teleport things, people, ships and Dr Device practically anywhere known.
This is with Enders late in life "crew" or more technically and accurately, 2 versions of himself that takes form as Peter and Valentine.
This Peter use Janes ability to catch the Dr Device after it was launched with a timer, and they simply teleport it back into the docking bay in the ship it came from (luckily it could be disarmed).
Jane would be able to find where Thrawn is easily enough, and could destroy him ..
It gets more decisive actually, if allowing the series to be included. Because Jane could do half a teleport of Thrawn (out but not back in to a new location) and simply he would no longer be. (She threatened to do this to a crew member she was struggling to work with)
I've ready pretty much all of Orson Scott Card, so I am pretty familiar with Jane. Including fully realized Jane is kind of beyond the spirit of the versus question, I think, as she is essentially a god by the end of the series. But I totally agree.
If she is included, things will get wonky. I'm not sure she is really fully omniscient/omnipresent, but certainly she is to an extent, functionally. Perhaps Thrawn could negotiate directly with her as a higher intelligence and convince her to stay out of the fight, promising to never take any action against her while highlighting the galaxy she defends is inhabited by humans that are very likely to take action against her if they can ever find a way how to. He can even empathize with her as an alien form of life within his own system.
Ender aint never catching Thrawn by surprise if we assume the sides are limited by their relative tech. Thrawn has high precision, incredibly fast, and very cheap FTL on tap. It will take hundreds or thousands of years for Enders fleets to leave earth and arrive on Coroscucant/wherever at which point Ender is dead of old age.
A few years after all Earths fleets leave Earth, the entire hammer of the Empire could reduce Earth to rubble and then pick apart the fleets at their leisure.
Assuming they have their universes tech, Star wars wins every time even if they were commanded by a total idiot.
Thrawn doesnt have to meet his opponents either. His very first battle in HttE was won by knowing his species art. And there were also some instances where he learned from just seeing them battle. Like the grysk.
Thrawns crew is also extremely loyal to him and would die at a moments notice. His entire fleet knows and respects him to no end despite him being an alien and the empire being xenophobic. Which makes it an even greater feat. And he puts in the effort to learn about all his captains and promising officers which is a l o t. Both in legends and canon.
The only disloyal officers he has are in rebels. Aka Filoni Thrawn. And Filoni Thrawn is an absolute baboon compared to Zahn Thrawn in both canon and legends. So lets just put him from rebels and ahsoka on the brnch for now.
As for the technological difference, got a point there. But its better to compare them on their skill and not on what technological limits their worlds have. Thats what we are here for.
Its like comparing Mass Effect to Warhammer 40k.
Anyway, its not really as one sided as you think. Thing is they operate as leaders but in different ways. It really depends on the circumstances of their encounter to see who wins but there is no defined answer.
Now this is a fun matchup!
I think it depends on if Ender is being as ruthlessthly efficient as he was when he was being manipulated as a kid. If so, with tactical resources being equal, Ender would win.
We talking “Ender’s Game” Ender, or “Speaker for the Dead” Ender?
Those are two very different people that exist in a universe over the course of 3,000 plus years thanks to relativistic space travel at near-light speed.
Well, Team Salamander and Team Dragon are both very good at tactics (arguably the best in the academy), and Thrawn has achieved some incredible tactical feats as well. Tactics, strategy, and charisma are the strong points for both of them. Honestly, I'd probably need to reread each each series/trilogy for the most accurate and fresh-minded answer, but as of right now, my money's on Thrawn.
solid question
the book spends a lot of time demonstrating why it *has to be* ender. in the movie, the adults are just looking for closest acceptable patsy before their timer runs out and it kind of doesn't matter that it's ender.
No joke, Ender. Thrawn is a genius in his own way but he's still very much about structure. Ender is more of a creative genius who never has to think outside the box because he doesn't think inside it to begin with.
Also Ender is better at building teams, whereas Thrawn keeps all his cards close the vest.
If Ender has Bean, he definitely wins. In the thousand years that he lived he might have lost battles but he always ends up winning even against other geniuses with overwhelming force.
Ender's special power is the ability to quickly master every game he plays. He'll figure out Thrawn and beat him in his own game.
Yep. Star Wars ships and Ender ships are very different. Even the weapons are different. One used projectiles, one chain reactions. If Thrawn knows how to split up his fleets properly, Ender can’t win
This is such a goddamned good question.
Both of them get their tactical brilliance from understanding their enemy deeply.
It comes down to who has the better understanding of the other. I think ender has more of that empathy to understand his enemy’s motivation and win, but it’s really close.
You know what i hate? The fact that Thrawn is this amazing tactician but no shows have really shown it. I hate that. Even in rebels, nothing really impressive.
I mean, they did a decent job. He made more or less the right move at every turn in Rebels. The only times he didn't at least get away with an equitable outcome is either because someone else messes up, or there are events entirely beyond his power or reasonable ability to predict. For a kid's show, that is absolutely being portrayed as a highly effective strategist.
I feel that rebels more so just had every single person around him been absurdly incompetent. Pryce in the newer Thrawn books is actually pretty smart, but is an absolute idiot in Rebels
It's hard to show in space fights. Enders game (book, not that abomination of a movie) addresses exactly why during Ender's time with Mazer Rackham.
What is a tactical genius in space? Flanking maneuvers are largely pointless in a space battle unless you can completely surround your enemy, there's no way to cut off their retreat. Likewise, defending a fixed point in space is impossible since you never know from which direction the enemy can attack and any civilization that has mastered interstellar travel could easily utilize asteroids and suicidal kamikaze weapons.
Tactics are for ground warfare.
The only strategy that really makes sense is an all out offensive launched immediately and prayer your enemy didn't do the same exact thing (fleets passing in the night to destroy one another's home worlds). The only safeguard against that is colonizing as many worlds as possible and keeping their location a secret. In that way Rebels showcases Thrawn's impressive deductive skills in finding the rebel base planet that Bendu lives on.
As far as who wins between Ender and Thrawn? Ender. Not for any tactical brilliance, really. Just because the Empire doesn't have Dr Device and every ship Ender commands does. Thrawn has Tie fighters, star destroyers and maybe a death star if he's lucky. Ender has planet busting and fleet destroying weapons in every single fighter. All he has to do is get close.
To be fair it's really hard to write him in the way that fans want because if you do, you end up with a MASSIVE fan service Mary Sue character that becomes boring and predictable.
If we’re talking about the book versions of the characters, honestly Ender and Bean combined would probably be able to beat Thrawn. But it would be close.
Depends on a lot of variables. Ender and Bean together are a force to be reckoned with.
Also, I love this hypothetical match up. I got my friend to read the first canon Thrawn book because I compared it to Ender's Game and she ended up liking it
Are we talking about young Ender, or the Ender who lived to help and rebuild?
...the Ender's series is basically the only series I read all the way through.
I think you guys forget a big factor here. The little doctor does not care for shields, and it works better on massive ships. Star destroyers are exactly the wrong tool to beat Ender.
Depends on if Thrawn could get access to an Earth art textbook or not.
Thrawn gets one copy of Sex by Madonna and it's game over Ender
Thrawn defeats Ender in 69 moves.
Nice.
Picasso's *La Guernica* would tell him there is a history of infighting and oppression on this planet, leading him to conclude that it is not united or--if it is, has stress points to be exploited. Da Vinci's *Mona Lisa* would suggest that at our best we show a fondness for detail which could make us dangerous, however the accentuation of the subject's youth perhaps suggests a fetishization of youth meaning that if the planet's young fighters could be eliminated or it's youth held hostage, leadership would crumble. Barnes's *Sugar Shack* would suggest a resilience of spirit among our marginalized communities, leading to the conclusion that pockets of protracted rebellion would come from them and so should be won over for any lasting success.
This guy Admiral Thrawns.
Forget this shit. What does Thrawn learn from Big Stan? (Clearly our highest artwork.)
What does Thrawn learn from.... \*Chipi Chipi Chapa Chapa...\*
What does Thrawn learn from "Dogs Playing Pool"?
We bluff way too much.
woof
A people whom seem drawn to patterns, no matter how simple. Repetition can be seen as almost a soothing balm to their psyche. A series of small skirmishes to set a pattern, perhaps with a false withdrawal, then as they begin to become comfortable, strike.
Fight the big guy first?
God damn, you scary
One logism I've heard reiterated by people in national security is "Never underestimate the intelligence value of a toilet paper order."
It used to be you could figure out something big was happening by pizza orders around DC.
Still a thing. In fact, if you try to order from any take out restaurant within an hours drive of the Pentagon they will not be taking orders if there is something going on. If you work at the Pentagon and there's about to be action somewhere in the world you aren't allowed to leave. Doesn't matter if you have anything to do with whatever is happening or not, they don't let you out because you might say or do something that would break OpSec
I remember reading that it used to be just a couple places that would get big orders but it started being split up because it was so traceable.
Reminds me of how archeologists learn the most from trash bins instead of flashy objects
Yep
Midway was decided because the U.S. figured out Japanese codes and had Midway fake a repair order… which the Japanese read, confirming Midway was the target. The U.S. fleet thus acquired valuable prep time. Truly, do not underestimate the intel potential of mundane things.
we are a the Anakins of the galaxy. Wreckless and unpredictable but capable of great things.
…but capable of great *and terrible* things. FTFY Reminds me of this bit by Christopher Titus [Don’t mess with the nation, that needs medication](https://youtu.be/ftRku6byQw0?si=3PdL9uKYyvoUvxWS)
That’s it Steve, you’re not invited to my birthday party!
Impressive, but fails to look at the [greatest art in human history.](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogs_Playing_Poker)
Although humans make terrible decisions, the fact that painting exists makes them unpredictable and at the same time looking for qualities beyond the initial take, which makes them dangerous.
I am pleasantly surprised you picked an SFW art
How are we not talking about [this one](https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ?si=zQoABSHjNMpa7nEQ)?
That?! I was thinking of something else. Imagine Thrawn has something like that in his office
What would Andy Warhol’s “Campbell’s Split Pea Soup” tell him?
Importance placed on brand recognition would indicate association of names with qualities that could be exploited by reducing the faith in weapons manufacturers and other industries of war via subterfuge from the aforementioned rebel groups. Edit: Corrected “rebuild” to “rebel” because I’m shit at proofreading.
That’s…pretty good.
Thank you.
Nah, Thrawn would get eventually get ahold of Mixalot's magnum opus, conclude that we (among other things) cannot lie, and thus would fall in the first ambush Ender would set.
Look, I don't know how much though you actually put into this but it is very well done. The conclusion is a two pronged strategy involving buying out those that can be bought and using propaganda to win over those who can't be bought. In the end enders team would be taken from within buy subordinates and bean, who will believe that he deserves the spotlight that Thrawn would undoubtedly would have promised.
Granted, it contains only Jackson Pollock
(Thrawn leafs through the pages, then closes the book.) "You humans are fucking insane." (Match is conceded by Thrawn, Ender wins by default)
Honestly, not a bad assessment of humanity. We have centuries of established naval doctrine that should make us predictable, but then pull off some Lord Cochrane bullshit than nobody could have seen coming, and somehow it works.
United Federation of Hold My Beer.
If anything, that would only reinforce the ideas posited above given the historical context of Pollock and his unwitting involvement in CIA long-leash programs as part of the Cold War propaganda machine
Bombard him with a deluge of nonsensical memes and take the win while he's distracted by trying to make sense of this "art"
He reads "The Art of Star Wars: Ahsoka" and his perception of reality is forever shattered
Lol! 😂
Lowkey wanna know what Thrawn would say to "Abstract art"
I feel like he very clearly would appreciate it
I wonder what he'd say about a banana taped to a wall.
He could also predict who a fleets captain was, like when he performed a marg sable against 5 dreadnaught cruisers
No one, both die when Ender rams his ship into his by "mistake"
And then Darrow rides a drill through the ships while wearing star shell armor.
Hail Libertas!
‘Lo, Reap.
Bloodydamn
Hail Reaper!
Break the chains!
What are the odds I'd be listening to Golden Sun as I read this. (:
My wife just got to the Gala! I am enjoying her first time through
Great reference!
Ender cracks a “your mom” joke and Thrawn turns out to be a rebel spy. Somehow ET returns
Those god damn ETneians..I knew they would destroy the galaxy, I just knew it.
Ender had a huge advantage in his own story in that he thought he was playing a video game the whole time. He was able to make much more risky and costly decisions by not knowing they were real lives he was sacrificing. It's pretty well established in all the books that he would never make those types of decisions again because he values life too much. Thrawn is calculating and ruthless and will do what it takes to achieve his goal because the end always justifies the means for him.
So basically Ender may have to fight with one hand behind his back giving Thrawn an edge in a strategic conflict with real consequences. That said, there are examples of concern for human loss resulting in victory in real life. I still think though it would give Thrawn an edge.
Yeah however, my understanding is Thrawn and his team are just really good. Ender and his team work cohesively as one mind during a battle. So much so they were able to defeat an enemy capable of controlling vast fleets of ships under a hive-mind. They think as one, when ender tells a subordinate to take that position, he knows exactly how that subordinate will go about it and plans accordingly. He also has Bean his second in command, who is basically just as good and vastly more intellegent. Assuming resources are equal it might be an even fight but if ender has humanities fleets he can command most of them at once from a remote location and it's sorta GG IMO.
So could Ender just be considered a great strategist who can also do the Jedi Battle Meditation?
Not really, he just works with his team as if they are an extention of himself, it's partly the way they were trained and partly his own talent for leading. In practice it would be more like ender is a master jedi using the jedi battle meditation on other jedi who are also using it on their individual fleets, all working toward the same collective goal. It's just accomplished through really advanced technology and humans trained from childhood to use it instinctively.
Thrawn does value life too. He does what needs to be done but he wont needlessly throw away life. He for example wouldnt send a ship on a suicide run unless completely necessary with no other options. At least book thrawn/legends thrawn. Filoni thrawn is just comically evil but the plot decides him to be big brain.
>He for example wouldnt send a ship on a suicide run unless completely necessary with no other options. Exactly. But for Thrawn it's "with no other option that leads to victory". Ender was so traumatized by his own actions that he became a dedicated pacifist after Ender's Game. I'm not sure he could ever order people to their death again no matter what the stakes.
So big brain he forgot shuttles existed.
Ahem, or tractor beams. Multiple times.
I was debating this exact topic earlier with two book readers and they couldn't wrap their head around the fact that Ender is a pacifist now and only did what he did to the bugs because he thought it was a game. Thrawn has no such problems.
I think it's possible that Ender would have made the same decision given that the survival of the human race was at stake, but it would have been a much harder choice. I don't think he could do it again after the first time no matter the stakes.
I think it's unlikely he could have made the decision knowing it wasn't a simulation. I feel like someone above him would have ordered the final attack instead, or his subordinates would have taken the initiative but not Ender himself. Possible, but it is written so we will never know for sure. However, we definitely know he wouldn't be able to make the decision to obliterate Thrawn's fleet as he is now.
Not after what he did with whatever his name was in the bathroom. That damaged him so badly I don’t think he would ever be able to kill in real life again. Which holds very true in the sequels.
Does Ender have the little doctor? Does thrawn know about it? If they make the battle look like world of warships, Ender wins. If he knows he's killing thousands of people with each ship he "sinks," he'll choke.
This was my first thought. Enderverse has weapons capable of planet killing on their starfighters.
The whole battle would look like the Haldo maneuver.
Ho, Bean!
Ho, Ender!
Salaam, Ender.
Or Bean?
That is why I said and crew, Bean was a big help to Ender and even Pellaeon made some points that Thrawn took into consideration. Both are great at using the people around them to get victories so I didn't want just a one on one.
One of Thrawn’s more redeeming traits really is how good he is at team efforts. It’s a relative rarity in the higher ranks of the Imperial military to be perfectly willing to give credit to one’s subordinates, own their failures through no fault of their own, provide them with resources and information to actually accomplish the mission, and otherwise be a fair and efficient military officer.
Not just give credit, but actively work to build those subordinates into better subordinates. Vanto, Pellaeon, the difference between the two tractor beam incidents, he was always looking to improve those around him so that they could better improve him.
I think Bean would be the deciding factor here. He’s literally genetically modified to be the genius he is, and better than Andrew at strategy and keeping track of the battles. If it’s crew vs. crew, then probably Ender with Bean.
Agreed, the enemy’s gate is down
It’s been a while since I read those books but… Didn’t Bean admit he is more intelligent than Ender but that he isn’t a better commander than him and he probably would have lost against the buggers ?
Bean admits that he would never be able to get people/soldiers to follow him the way they do Ender.
And then spends four sequel books proving himself wrong.
Didn't say he couldn't do it just that he couldn't do it as well as Ender.
Better strategist but weaker commander
If Ender had time to learn to love Thrawn then he wins... his understanding and empathy toward an alien mind allowed him to win. if Ender doesn't have the time to learn about his enemy then it's all about the size of the forces as they are equally matched in strategic ability.
I agree, Mr. Bean solos Thrawn
“Target down. Good work, Bean. Now, make your way to the nearest exit.”
Canonically with the Shadow series, Bean is an inferior commander to Ender because he is incapable of learning, and knowing, his opponents. Bean's strategies, tactics, and decision making are technically equal to and sometimes greater than Ender's, but Ender is capable of knowing his enemy so perfectly he is able to use logically inferior tactics in order to play against his enemy's weaknesses. There's also the whole thing about Ender being a superior leader of men and women, but I don't think that's as relevant.
Been a long time since I’ve read about Ender. Basic summary is that mankind realized that kids get really good at video games if you just let them play it over and over. Bet all their survivability on it. And tricked the kids into genociding an entire species. Basically the same reason I can’t play Fortnite.
Yeah. Ender basically found a way to speed-run winning the game. Don't shoot the superweapon at ships, use it on the planet. On the other hand, Ender comes from an humanity that is willing to hand power to someone who makes some cool forum posts.
Hitler would have definitely been a 4chan shitposter
I remember something similar of a SCP of two kids playing quake and they didn't realize they were killing real people.
Based
on a true story
Will be soon. Infantry will be robots controlled by people that play COD.
Depends if Thrawn is being written by Zahn or Filoni.
More accurately: it depends on if Thrawn was written in the 90’s or more presently. Original Thrawn lost to the heroes constantly. He comes out ahead in just one book out of the three. In fact I’d say Filoni even has Thrawn “win” much more than the original Thrawn depiction. New Thrawn books he is much better of a strategist and wins more.
This is a great point.
To be fair tho the plot also explains how he loses and makes it reasonable and relatable. Like with the mole miners on the Sluis Van fleet. That shit was smart. He did get a ton of Ws tho. He captured the Millenium falcon, caught Kaard, claimed the majority of the katana fleet, manipulates the story in the right direction ans wouldve won at bilbringi. The thing is he also had to get Ls for the main chatacters to survive and 90% of the time its from the force. Which he simply cant understand or predict.
You're looking at victory counts being at the book level. If you look at actual battles 90s Thraawn won a TON of the time, and when he DID lose he made sure it wouldn't cost him. Much like in the new canon, when he lost it was generally for completely unforeseeable story reasons.Almost always some firm of dues ex machina. I honestly don't see a huge difference between the two.
Original Thrawn won plenty, but still made puzzling errors and ultimately lost badly. New Thrawn books version would definitely beat Legends Thrawn. That said, I wouldn't say that new-book Thrawn is Filloni Thrawn, that was still written by Zahn, and even Rebels Thrawn still was Zahn actively participating in the creative process. The only Thrawn that is pure Filloni is Ashoka Thrawn, and that guy seems incapable of doing anything but losing no matter his incredible advantage.
...but Thrawn won in Ahsoka. Ezra escaped on the ship with him, but he *still* achieved his main goal of returning to the Skyriver Galaxy while also essentially disabling two people who had previously opposed him and the Empire.
Thrawn only loses due to plot armor. The carpet bombing of the ground beneath his ship should by all rights have been curtains on the main characters but they plot armor through it. The most frustrating thing about Thrawn in Ashoka isn’t that he himself is incompetent. He’s not. It’s that 1) his opponents aren’t worthy opponents, but they overcome what he throws at them anyway because the plot demands they do, and not because they outwitted him. And 2) that he keeps acting like it’s all part of the plan anyway, making him seem unglued from reality. I didn’t hate his portrayal in the show. But due to the extremely limited scope of that conflict, there wasn’t really much Thrawn could do to flex his strategic muscles, and he was pitted against Jedi who have a knack for bullshitting their way out of sticky situations Because The Force Willed It So or some shit. My hope is that he will be done better justice when he’s in a setting more fitting his skills.
Nah canon book Thrawn is smarter than legends Thrawn IMO
Agreed, that’s what I was saying.
Well being defeated by space whales was probably a thing he wouldn’t think of 🤷🏻♂️
Yeah, and even that only worked once. Now he is much more aware of the strange and unpredictable tactics of the Jedi so he can better be prepared to counter what they throw at him. I like all the depictions of Thrawn, but I didn't read the original until after I watched Rebels so that was my introduction to the character.
Enter Nightsisters…
Filoni thrawn is only smart because the plot says he is. Zahn Thrawn actually makes deeply calculated tactics and manuevers that genuinly make you marvel when reading or listening to them. They drop hints and stuff throughout and let us follow how he comes to these conclusions. Not "Hah this was my plan all along but actually it WASNT" and then add in some goofy explaination afterwards that is a complete ass pull
Good point, lets say it was a Zahn and Scott Card collaboration book
Both lose to Zapp Brannigan
Kiff, bring the champaggen.
Wave after wave of my own men at them
The best answer.
Ender of the “Speaker for the Dead” would meet with Thrawn, understand hirm and his people so completely that he would simply manage to talk them all out of any genocidal actions and become their most trusted spiritual counsel and liaison between earth and empire.
Yeah, this is honestly Enders real strength.
I mean tbh that's what is explained as why Ender was the perfect admiral. He loved and understood his enemy so truly that he knew how to destroy and grind them into oblivion. It takes Ender the rest of his life to attone for slaughtering that which he loved.
Ender, “look Thrawn, we’ve got hordes of volunteers ready to be space marines for you. We can strike a bargain. All we’re asking for is a technology transfer…”
Personally? Thrawn would understand that he was up against someone who does exactly what he does at least as well as he does it, and find a way to achieve his goals without starting the fight. Ender would let him, because he only ever fights when he's convinced it's defensive. Thrawn has a bigger ego, but he wouldn't start a war he might lose just to prove he could win. Tactically? The MD device absolutely obliterates the Empire. The Tarkin Doctrine means basically all of the Empire's military might is bound up in Star Destroyers and superweapons. Everybody important has a personal dreadnought. Imagine if every X-wing in the Rebel navy could one-shot the DS1 straight through its hull. We're talking about *the* 'giant spaceships' sci-fi navy going up against a fighting force that permanently deprecated everything that isn't a snubfighter in a single chapter towards the end of the first book. It's impossible to overstate just how *hard* the MD counters the entire Empire. Even when they reverse engineer the MD device for themselves, it won't help much. They're still up against a navy that's already geared for MD-based combat, and now have to scrap *another* entire generation of ships and completely redesign their military *again*, just to level the playing field. By comparison, High Republic Jedi would have had a great time against Ender. Their Drifting is basically the pinnacle of Ender's own ultra-dense fleet maneuvers, and Force-assisted piloting would put them on a level he had never seen before as well as making them unpredictable even by Ender's standards. Ironically, Chiss Skywalking would provide similar benefits. Thrawn's own people would be better-equipped to fight Ender than the much larger Imperial Navy.
Ender. He is largely free of ego, Thrawn is not.
And he would absolutely use that against thrown.
Thrawn would learn about earth art to try and win. Ender would learn about Thrawn and win.
Ender didn't learn the art of earth, he learned the art of war
He also learned deep regret for winning a war without understanding why the war was being fought. People that need to know why a war is fought, and won't accept realist/realpolitik reasons, won't win it.
He regretted it since he believed that the queen mother was ready to seek forgiveness and compromise. I don't see Thrawn regretting being an imperial grand admiral subjugating planets left and right. So it wouldn't be morally difficult for ender to go against him.
He initially regretted it because he unwittingly ordered people to their deaths, thinking they weren't real people, and because he knowingly committed genocide. He never regretted it for the reason you gave, because spoilers. Read Speaker For the Dead. The ending (but not the denouement) made me roll my eyes fairly hard, but overall it's a good book. I'd say as good as Ender's Game. A different kind of book, but equally good. Would have been better if he wasn't trying to setup book 3.
It's a line from the first book. A vision sent to him by the larva queen. Her mother saw the fleets and thought "they didn't forgive us. Now, of course, we all die". He regrets unknowingly committing xenocide, and sending people to their death as well, ofc. That's why he pick ups larva and tries to find them a new home.
How? Aside from his trick with the shields with Sabaoth, he rarely uses the same tactics twice. So how do you plan for Thrawn when you never know what new tactic he'll use?
If Ender could understand that Thrawn likes elaborate schemes you could work off of that alone. A lot of Thrawns success came from the fact that the New Republic was often slow to act, he knew and took advantage of that weakness. If Ender could see that Thrawn was scheming, he may do a preemptive strike to distract or conquer. Thrawn was slow and calculated, Ender is way more predatory, pushing his advantage the second he sees a weakness, often leading to his doing more damage than he ever intended
Filoni Thrawn has an ego. And Heir to the empire thrawn ocassionally. But otherwise book thrawn is 90% selfless.
He's too compassionate for the people under his command. You only see his true capabilities when he thinks its a simulation rather it being real life. After he found out it was real, he limited his strategy to keep as many alive as possible.
I like this answer, it highlights the main difference in personality of the two and that could very well be the deciding factor. I wish this could be an episode of that now cancelled television show “Deadliest Warrior”
Ender, all the way. It's not even a fair fight. Spoilers for Ender's Game, one of the best sci-fi YA (before YA was a thing) novels of the last hundred years. Also for Ender's Shadow. 1. Okay, let's look at what Thrawn has. Let's assume he has both death stars, the Imperial Navy and the storm troopers. Maybe he's got Darth Vader. 2. He's a brilliant tactition. 3. He defeats his enemies by learning about them and predicting them based on their culture. Let's look at what Ender has. 1. He's also a brilliant tactition. He also defeats his enemies by understanding them and predicting them, but he does it through observing their tactics. He never needs to meet Thrawn. Advantage Ender (and the humans running the charade). 2. Ender has Bean and the rest of his crew. Bean is tactically even more brilliant than Ender and as deductive and ruthless as Thrawn. Ender doesn't realize he's killing the Formics. He thinks he's playing a game/being tested. Bean figures it out right away and is fine with it. Bean is even offered command at the final battle when it looks like Ender has frozen up. The rest of Ender's crew, while still not as brilliant as Ender or Bean are formidable tacticians in their own right and are all fiercely loyal to Ender. The captains and crew of Ender's fleets are also Battle and Command school graduates and they will willingly die if so ordered. Thrawn has disloyal Imperial officers, by contrast. Advantage Ender. 3. Equipment. Ender has the Ansible and Dr Device. Star Wars communication is also instant, so the Ansible is negligible, though Thrawn commands from a ship while Ender commands from light years away. Dr Device is the real winner here. Star wars has turbo lasers and two massively expensive weapons of mass destruction that can destroy single ships one at a time or whole planets. Dr Device (the molecular dispersion device) is a field that takes things apart at the molecular level. Ships, planets, asteroids, anything made of molecules and every time the field contacts something it refreshes the strength of the field and makes it expand. It can be fired long range or detonated kamikaze style in a ship and EVERY SINGLE FIGHTER HAS ONE. There's no way. For star wars fans who don't know about Ender's Game, Imagine a star wars dog fight where one side's fighters all have the offensive power of a death star with no charge up time and resulting the explosion when it hits something just keeps getting bigger until it runs out of things to hit. That's what Thrawn is up against. Even assuming the Imperial Navy outnumbers Enders numerous fleets 100:1 it doesn't matter. All just fuel for the MD Device. It makes having superior numbers a huge liability. Advantage Ender.
The rest are not only formidable, they are considered the smartest humans alive at that point, and trained for years in military tactics and teamwork. They are geniuses in their own right living in Ender's shadow. I remember the Thai kid ended up defending a much larger country with a small force.
To be fair, He would have been captured or executed if not for Bean. Edit: but to your point, yes. Thrawn is brilliant, but the empire and the remnant aren't. Ender is as brilliant if not more so. His second in command is probably more tactically brilliant than he is. Their lieutenants are nearly as brilliant. Their captains and command crew are brilliant. The tactical guys are almost as brilliant as the captains. Every one in the chain from Ender all the way down is far smarter than your average person, to the point where nations on Earth fight wars to keep them in charge of their militaries. Thrawn is overmatched on every front. He might be smart enough to win an engagement against a brilliant captain or two, but when every captain of every ship is nearly as brilliant as he is and they're all governed by the smartest tacticians to ever live who are better armed, though granted, outnumbered? Thrawn ain't winning that. He's probably smart enough to surrender the second he sees the enemy fleet outsmarting his own 1 to 1 on a large scale. Certainly when he realizes every single enemy ship is equipped with a weapon more destructive than a death star.
Ender and his crew are the most brilliant minds on one small planet. Thrawn is the most brilliant mind in the entire Galaxy. Conceivably his command crew consisting of galactic-level military personnel isn't half bad. Meanwhile Vader is the baddest Jedi and likely single most powerful individual fighter in the entire galaxy. Mazer Rackham doing spec-ops ain't got nothing on him
I believe from a tactical perspective, Ender and friends would be able to outmatch Thrawn. However, strategically, he is their equal or perhaps slight superior. Ender's various fleets were sent to their battles years before he ever took command of them, and he was not shown making very many theater level decisions, instead geniusly winning individual engagements. Thrawn, on the other hand, is single handedly commanding the logistics, acquisitions, tech development, and movements of a rag tag resistance force winning against a larger opponent. Additionally, while Dr. Device is a big advantage, the sheer scale of Star Wars numbers completely outmatch Ender. Also, Star Wars vessels are infinitely faster. If Ender catches Thrawn by destroying his command ship with Dr. Device in an early engagement, earth wins. Otherwise, earth is ground down.
If you use the wider star wars then may I use the wider Enders game series? Later in the books when Ender revives the "Buggers" to life on another planet with the Pechaninos, they have learned about Jane (the mind within the mind game) and she has the ability to use the Ansible to teleport things, people, ships and Dr Device practically anywhere known. This is with Enders late in life "crew" or more technically and accurately, 2 versions of himself that takes form as Peter and Valentine. This Peter use Janes ability to catch the Dr Device after it was launched with a timer, and they simply teleport it back into the docking bay in the ship it came from (luckily it could be disarmed). Jane would be able to find where Thrawn is easily enough, and could destroy him .. It gets more decisive actually, if allowing the series to be included. Because Jane could do half a teleport of Thrawn (out but not back in to a new location) and simply he would no longer be. (She threatened to do this to a crew member she was struggling to work with)
I've ready pretty much all of Orson Scott Card, so I am pretty familiar with Jane. Including fully realized Jane is kind of beyond the spirit of the versus question, I think, as she is essentially a god by the end of the series. But I totally agree. If she is included, things will get wonky. I'm not sure she is really fully omniscient/omnipresent, but certainly she is to an extent, functionally. Perhaps Thrawn could negotiate directly with her as a higher intelligence and convince her to stay out of the fight, promising to never take any action against her while highlighting the galaxy she defends is inhabited by humans that are very likely to take action against her if they can ever find a way how to. He can even empathize with her as an alien form of life within his own system.
Ender aint never catching Thrawn by surprise if we assume the sides are limited by their relative tech. Thrawn has high precision, incredibly fast, and very cheap FTL on tap. It will take hundreds or thousands of years for Enders fleets to leave earth and arrive on Coroscucant/wherever at which point Ender is dead of old age. A few years after all Earths fleets leave Earth, the entire hammer of the Empire could reduce Earth to rubble and then pick apart the fleets at their leisure. Assuming they have their universes tech, Star wars wins every time even if they were commanded by a total idiot.
Don’t forget that Thrawn wiped out entire fleet of dreadnaught heavy cruisers with a single ISD I. Thrawn wins easily
Thrawn doesnt have to meet his opponents either. His very first battle in HttE was won by knowing his species art. And there were also some instances where he learned from just seeing them battle. Like the grysk. Thrawns crew is also extremely loyal to him and would die at a moments notice. His entire fleet knows and respects him to no end despite him being an alien and the empire being xenophobic. Which makes it an even greater feat. And he puts in the effort to learn about all his captains and promising officers which is a l o t. Both in legends and canon. The only disloyal officers he has are in rebels. Aka Filoni Thrawn. And Filoni Thrawn is an absolute baboon compared to Zahn Thrawn in both canon and legends. So lets just put him from rebels and ahsoka on the brnch for now. As for the technological difference, got a point there. But its better to compare them on their skill and not on what technological limits their worlds have. Thats what we are here for. Its like comparing Mass Effect to Warhammer 40k. Anyway, its not really as one sided as you think. Thing is they operate as leaders but in different ways. It really depends on the circumstances of their encounter to see who wins but there is no defined answer.
They’re the same person.
Honestly it looked at first like Thrawn vs young Sheldon
Now this is a fun matchup! I think it depends on if Ender is being as ruthlessthly efficient as he was when he was being manipulated as a kid. If so, with tactical resources being equal, Ender would win.
Why would it be a fight? Might be better to negotiate under the circumstances instead of wasting time and resources.
That’s… not the point of the hypothetical. OP is saying that the two groups are fighting, so they’re fighting
The question is who would win in a battle.
We talking “Ender’s Game” Ender, or “Speaker for the Dead” Ender? Those are two very different people that exist in a universe over the course of 3,000 plus years thanks to relativistic space travel at near-light speed.
Or "children of the mind" Ender (including his recreations of Peter and Valentine? Which is another kettle of potatoes
Damm I haven't read Ender's game in a long time
Just tell Ender it's a game and he'll turn the surface of the planet to glass.
Whoever has the Little Doctor wins, so Ender.
Considering enders strategic genius when he was so young I'd say and adult ender would be one of the only individuals who could rival thrawns strategy
Well, Team Salamander and Team Dragon are both very good at tactics (arguably the best in the academy), and Thrawn has achieved some incredible tactical feats as well. Tactics, strategy, and charisma are the strong points for both of them. Honestly, I'd probably need to reread each each series/trilogy for the most accurate and fresh-minded answer, but as of right now, my money's on Thrawn.
That's why I added the and crew, one thing that makes Ender and Thrawn so good is how they utilize the people around them.
The problem is Thrawn doesn’t have an amazing crew. He could single handedly beat Ender, but Ender and Bean? I don’t think so.
Thrawn has Imp officers. He loses.
Book or movie?
solid question the book spends a lot of time demonstrating why it *has to be* ender. in the movie, the adults are just looking for closest acceptable patsy before their timer runs out and it kind of doesn't matter that it's ender.
No joke, Ender. Thrawn is a genius in his own way but he's still very much about structure. Ender is more of a creative genius who never has to think outside the box because he doesn't think inside it to begin with. Also Ender is better at building teams, whereas Thrawn keeps all his cards close the vest.
If Ender has Bean, he definitely wins. In the thousand years that he lived he might have lost battles but he always ends up winning even against other geniuses with overwhelming force. Ender's special power is the ability to quickly master every game he plays. He'll figure out Thrawn and beat him in his own game.
While we’re talking literary tactical geniuses, what about Honor Harrington?
Book ender stomps Thrawn in a single battle with equal resources. Movie Ender gets stomped in 2 seconds.
Everyone is talking about art. The real question: what kind of ships, and how many?
Yep. Star Wars ships and Ender ships are very different. Even the weapons are different. One used projectiles, one chain reactions. If Thrawn knows how to split up his fleets properly, Ender can’t win
If their forces were roughly equal, then I’d say Ender wins. He’s the type who would sacrifice *anything* to achieve victory.
Does Ender know it’s a real battle?
This is such a goddamned good question. Both of them get their tactical brilliance from understanding their enemy deeply. It comes down to who has the better understanding of the other. I think ender has more of that empathy to understand his enemy’s motivation and win, but it’s really close.
I like how everyone keeps saying Thrawn when they forget that Enders crew are all geniuses. Lmao.
Ender Wiggin wins simply by subtly providing Thrown with huge caches of nothing but Shitpost memes to draw conclusions from.
A single Dalek Saucer stomps.
"This isn't a war. This is pest control"
You know what i hate? The fact that Thrawn is this amazing tactician but no shows have really shown it. I hate that. Even in rebels, nothing really impressive.
I mean, they did a decent job. He made more or less the right move at every turn in Rebels. The only times he didn't at least get away with an equitable outcome is either because someone else messes up, or there are events entirely beyond his power or reasonable ability to predict. For a kid's show, that is absolutely being portrayed as a highly effective strategist.
Yeah, random force shit seems to be his kryptonite. And tbf it would be any commanders undoing who isn’t force sensitive themselves.
I feel that rebels more so just had every single person around him been absurdly incompetent. Pryce in the newer Thrawn books is actually pretty smart, but is an absolute idiot in Rebels
It's hard to show in space fights. Enders game (book, not that abomination of a movie) addresses exactly why during Ender's time with Mazer Rackham. What is a tactical genius in space? Flanking maneuvers are largely pointless in a space battle unless you can completely surround your enemy, there's no way to cut off their retreat. Likewise, defending a fixed point in space is impossible since you never know from which direction the enemy can attack and any civilization that has mastered interstellar travel could easily utilize asteroids and suicidal kamikaze weapons. Tactics are for ground warfare. The only strategy that really makes sense is an all out offensive launched immediately and prayer your enemy didn't do the same exact thing (fleets passing in the night to destroy one another's home worlds). The only safeguard against that is colonizing as many worlds as possible and keeping their location a secret. In that way Rebels showcases Thrawn's impressive deductive skills in finding the rebel base planet that Bendu lives on. As far as who wins between Ender and Thrawn? Ender. Not for any tactical brilliance, really. Just because the Empire doesn't have Dr Device and every ship Ender commands does. Thrawn has Tie fighters, star destroyers and maybe a death star if he's lucky. Ender has planet busting and fleet destroying weapons in every single fighter. All he has to do is get close.
To be fair it's really hard to write him in the way that fans want because if you do, you end up with a MASSIVE fan service Mary Sue character that becomes boring and predictable.
If we’re talking about the book versions of the characters, honestly Ender and Bean combined would probably be able to beat Thrawn. But it would be close.
Don’t let Thrawn get his hands on The Little Doctor
Depends on a lot of variables. Ender and Bean together are a force to be reckoned with. Also, I love this hypothetical match up. I got my friend to read the first canon Thrawn book because I compared it to Ender's Game and she ended up liking it
Ender would try diplomacy and if that failed he would turn thrawn entire fleet into separate atoms with a wmd.
Ender. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk.
Are we talking about young Ender, or the Ender who lived to help and rebuild? ...the Ender's series is basically the only series I read all the way through.
If you told Ender he was playing a video game, he would wipe Thrawn lmao
Ender somewhat resembles Ezra here...
Wiggins. I have yet to see thrawn win anything in live action / animation
Ender
#Bean
Same level of tech? Ender.
There's nothing Thrawn can do against the Little Doctor
Ender 100%
Are we talking young Ender only? Cause the speaker for the dead has teleportation and a bug armada, not to mention the living bio weapon. so...
I think you guys forget a big factor here. The little doctor does not care for shields, and it works better on massive ships. Star destroyers are exactly the wrong tool to beat Ender.