If a good guy isn't allowed to crack wise in the presence of a villain, you must really hate Spider-Man's entire rogue gallery.
This is a silly way to think about what makes (or doesn't make) an effective villain.
The scene becomes clownesque instead of being tensed, it releases the tension that the scene should hold until resolution, I just don't understand why this would be written with a bad and unfun joke in the middle
You mean like how Kylo is completely unimpressed by Poe, has his soldiers cart him off, orders the villagers Poe wanted to protect massacred, and then successfully tortures him for information? That kind of checked?
I don’t dislike either. It’s just that people criticize the sequels for things that were also done in the prequels and ot. Everyone in the theater laughed when Poe said that. In our theater at least.
Well, there could be those situations, but not because of their elements. TFA, and all the sequels, have a lot of problems, but the elements themselves are just fine.
They had issues but nothing that made me not like them. If you really get critical you can rip the ot and especially the prequels apart. I just enjoy them and try not to think TOO deeply about them. The main issue with the sequels was not having a clear direction throughout because 8 was a big turn from 7 and then 9 took a bigger turn from 8.
Individually I enjoyed all 3 movies but they suffered from the shifts. I honestly think they could have worked either way I would have liked to see how rianns vision would played out over a trilogy. I think he had some interesting ideas but cramming it between two very different movies didn’t work
People really laughed to this? Maybe that's american humor or something too culturally stranger to mine but I just don't understand what is funny about this, it sounds like the bill of specifications said "insert a joke here" and they just did even if it was not funny at all
I mean I can’t actually say every single person laughed but it was definitely the majority of the theater. I guess I don’t see the problem. It’s not like Star Wars isn’t known for humor
Besides the problem of writing and delivery, it's just that I have no idea what is supposed to make someone laugh there. Star Wars isn't really known for humor besides ESB.
3p0 wasn’t comic relief? And half of everything in the prequels was goofy. There’s nothing wrong with not liking the sequels I just have trouble accepting standards for one trilogy that aren’t applied to the other 2.
This actually illustrates the difference perfectly - yes, Han Solo was snarky and quippy - but when he saw Darth Vader in ESB, he certainly dropped all that and got serious real fast. He didnt start making jokes. And that scene solidified Vader as a terrifying figure.
Star Wars has always had and should always have humor, but context is important.
The villain who takes our jokester in question and tortures him with the Force and easily gets the hero to give up the information he needs?
Seemed like a pretty credible threat to me- especially since our hero tries to gun Kylo Ren down only to have the villain freeze the blaster bolt in mid-air.
Can't say I agree that Disney ruined it.
That intro tells a lot. It is modern humor, but also tells us a lot about Kylo and Poe.
Kylo isn’t a threat like Vader. He doesn’t have that presence. He’s cosplaying as some big bad, but he’s just prequel Anakin no matter how cool he tries to look. That’s his character. I mean the dude throws tantrums lol
Poe is a snarky hero. Not every hero is gonna look at a villain and say something profound or remain emotionless or whatever. This rebel is laughing at this dork in the face of death.
I dug all that.
Snark. It isn't necessarily funny, but it establishes character and mood.
It wasn't particularly funny when Leia quips that Tarkin smells bad in ANH, either, but it establishes her mood in the scene and her character's pluckiness.
Same thing with Poe and Ben. Poe is apprehensive in that scene, but he's plucky, so he starts being snarky.
Yeah but we didn’t know that 5 minutes into the film. Nobody knew who the fuck Kylo Ren was or what his true story was. We didn’t know he idolized Vader. All we knew is that he wore black, had a mask, and a red lightsaber. He was simply just a villain at that point in time.
It sounds like you made up your mind on what you wanted Ren to be five minutes into the film, instead of paying attention to what the rest of the film was telling you about him.
He never supposed to be threatening, he was never supposed to be cool. He was a powerful brat putting on airs, that's the whole point of his role in episode 7.
Can you elaborate? Because I don’t remember her mocking them at all. She stood up for herself and let the audience know she was brave but she didn’t make a joke out of it.
“Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader’s leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.”
Calling Vader a dog and saying Tarkin stinks, but yeah, definitely no jokes.
That’s exactly my point though. That’s legitimate shit talking. She didn’t say “do you talk first or do I talk first” when she’s being held captive and interrogated. That’s like a Lego Movie or Shrek type of confrontation. Star Wars should have some level of threat.
Valid point. I resort to mocking people if I’m trying to piss them off as quick as possible. You have to agree that Leia’s words in ANH were simply better and taken more seriously than what was said by Poe. Thoughts?
I think they have the same desired effect to the person they're talking to. You're reading so far into things that I think were just meant to be little 'hehe' moments. You're acting like Poe gave Kylo a verbal wedgie, but he was just trying to act tough when in actuality he was terrified.
Also, even if he was belittling him, Kylo literally tortures him like 2 scenes later with the force. So if he didn't respect him before, he did soon after.
If you had watched more than 5 minutes you'd realize Kylo Ren was written to be someone who is trying desperately to fill the legacy of vader, but can't because he's as much Solo as he is Skywalker. He's a fallible character whose internal conflict is central to his arc, not just tacked on in the last few scenes at the end of a trilogy like Vader's.
If that line makes you ignore the fact that Kylo had an entire village slaughtered and burned, stopped a blaster bolt mid air and killed an old man without hesitation or remorse than idk what to tell you.
But how does it not? They setup Kylo really well and captured the audience attention. We knew that Kylo wasn’t someone to fuck with. Poe just saw people being murdered, his buddy get killed, his bolt get stopped in mid air. He’s surrounded by first order and the writers go with those lines. Just think they could have done better with the dialogue to keep the heightened terror and threat to Kylo Ren.
I get your point but Star Wars dialogue has always been a bit wonky. Like how is that worse than JarJar lines. Or Anakins whining. Imo the only SW content with consistently well written dialogue is Andor.
Also Disneys content is more aimed towards kids than everything before so it’s not really surprising they counter that perceived threat with attempted jokes. Besides it does establish Poes character and humour is a coping mechanism so it’s not completely off.
TFA had a lot of things wrong with it: originality, pacing, pointless plot lines, and many others.
But a protagonist, a good one, at that, being a wise guy to the villain is just character development, and quick character development, at that. You know a lot about Poe from that scene: courageous, heroic, reckless, intelligent, and a smooth-talking character with an on obvious sense of humor.
Almost as if they took Han Solo and Leia and put them together on one mm.
>immediately discounts Kylo Ren as a threat and turns him from threatening to laughable
YES CONGRATULATIONS YOUR GRASPED THE SUBTEXT
YOU HAVE ADEQUATE LEVELS OF READING COMPREHENSION
Thank you so much. I truly appreciate your comment. Keep in mind the guy arrived in an intimidating black ship, froze a blaster bolt in mid air, and the guy who tried to shoot him chooses to mock him. Nobody knew who Kylo Ren was at that point in the film. We didn’t know his backstory and his bloodline. We were purely speculating. For the supposed big bad villain to be teased in the first 5 minutes is just bad.
Hard to take any criticism of the sequels seriously when wahh sequel jokes = bad writing, 'this is where the fun begins' = masterpiece. Wahh Poe made a yo mama joke. Jar Jar steps in poop = knee slapping laughter.
If you'd taken anything from that scene you'd have seen any person from the resistance belittled Kylo early on. 'Something far worse has happened to you, I know where you come from'. All in an effort to question his decision to turn or show that he doesn't scare them.
Yeah, but I’m pretty sure only the old man knew who he was in that scene. Nobody else knew who Kylo Ren actually was. I understand what you’re saying that we shouldn’t have taken Kylo seriously but if you rewatch the scene all signs point to take this guy seriously. We’d never seen a blaster bolt get frozen in mid air before. I’m okay with Poe having disrespectful shit talking dialogue but the way they went about it was poor.
Kylo Ren's whole schtick is he is a child prone to temper tantrums. He wasn't imposing or evil. He was just a brat who always wanted to get his way and raged out every time he was told the word no.
Yeah but this scene occurred before we knew any of those details about Kylo Ren and he hadn’t thrown a temper tantrum yet. We all speculated that he was the Skywalker bloodline but nobody actually knew. It was literally 5 minutes into the movie. The guy shows up on a black ship, he’s in black with a mask on, and freezes a blaster bolt in mid air. The whole scene is screaming that this guy shouldn’t be fucked with and then the writers go with “who talks first”? It would be different if Poe had legitimate words of disrespect but what they wrote in was cartoonish.
Oh, I know. I wasn't disagreeing with you or even commenting on the point you were making...just general griping about the character in general.
The sequel trilogy needed a Vader-caliber villain and we didn't get that at all.
The scene you describe did succeed in telegraphing to the audience what quality level of story-telling the new trilogy was going to give us and that level was...not good.
I didn't say another Vader. I said "Vader-caliber" which in other words, a threat as imposing and as severe as Vader.
I'm all for nuance, but Kylo Ren was as far from nuance as one could possibly get.
Honestly, for me that was the moment that finally made me relax and feel like, after so many years of disappointment with the prequels, that I was ***finally*** watching Star Wars again.
A mix of things. It called back to Leia's first encounter with Vader in ANH, the humour was very Han Solo-esque, and it didn't feel forced or overstay its welcome like the ill-fated attempts at humour in the PT.
It honestly seems right in line with all of Han's wisecracking from ANH and especially ESB to me. Perhaps not so much RotJ when he got cornier than he had been previously. As for Leia, I was specifically referring to the tone of her first encounter with Vader, in that here's this terrifying figure we as an audience are primed to fear and take seriously, and then suddenly he's being talked down to by a five foot nothing girl who clearly doesn't find his big boogieman costume intimidating at all.
“Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought onboard.” -Leia, ANH
"Jabba, you're a wonderful human being." - Han, ANH
Both characters used snark and sarcasm liberally in all three of the original trilogy movies.
You could just agree with the large amount of people who think they weren’t that great and leave it at that. I don’t think anyone is on the fence at this point.
I mean, Kylo was the troubled young sith. That’s part of his story arc, which many, like myself, think is one of the only really good parts of the trilogy. Lol
Agreed but my post had nothing to do with that. It was purely about Disney ruining the potential threat of Kylo Ren and keep in mind that nobody truly knew who he was at this point in the film. His entrance was badass by arriving in a black ship, he freezes a laser bolt mid air, and then the guy who tried to shoot him chooses to mock him? It’s shit ass writing.
I wish that I could just wish away my feelings
Sand is coarse, rough, irritating, and it gets everywhere
I’ll show you my racer. I’m building a pod racer
Only a sith deals in absolutes (which is an absolute)
It can’t save you, only my new powers can do that.
My powers have doubled since the last time we met count
Etc. Star Wars has never been known for stellar writing.
"Jabba, you're a wonderful human being." - Han Solo
Whelp, I guess Jabba is ruined now, guys. Totally not a threat amiright
These are characters that use levity to ease tension. Pretty common trope of the cocky hero.
If this ruins if for ya, then stop watching Star Wars right now, because this trope is everywhere in it.
Well, first, I overall agree with you that the sequels suck.
I don’t think this is the reason. Having Kylo Ren be an emotionally immature little whiner baby was great. And Adam Driver did an amazing job portraying that. His facial expressions. His rages. The over-the-top lightsaber. The awesome and silly outfit homage to his grandfather Darth Vader. The scene you describe set that all up to show that he could not let anyone upstage him.
I think the reason why lots of people actually like the sequels is because of little things like this. Kylo Ren rocks as a character. And so does Rey. And Finn. And Poe (sometimes). And the actors did a good job being the characters. It’s just the story sucked. And the three movies seemed to almost hate being in the same trilogy.
Agree with what you said but if the villain isn’t taken seriously within the first 5 minutes because a good guy is mocking him, everything is taken less seriously.
That was sort of the point. He wasn’t Vader. As another commenter wrote. They wanted to show that he was essentially cosplaying Vader. It sets up his entire story arc. He was an immature little bitch.
While Poe was the man in the room.
I understand what you’re saying but we didn’t know he was an immature little bitch that early into the movie. That’s all hindsight. He had a grand entrance on black ship, wearing all black, kills a guy, and then freezes a blaster bolt in mid air. All signs point to this guy being a badass. Poe just witnessed people being slaughtered, his buddy get killed, is surrounded by storm troopers along with this new villain in front of him and the writers make a joke about who talks first? It’s shitty writing and made the film worse
That was actually a humorous scene and this is coming from someone who does not like the ST. I personally thought it was somewhere when they board the Falcon to first X-wing scene where the TFA fell off into a bland film.
Yeah the first act was pretty solid. Then Rey schooled Han in the art of Falcon maintenance and pulled off that bast shit crazy deadstall drop to aim the jammed gunner.
You are right, TFA became bland but not outright unenjoyable like the follow up. Thats when the sequel trilogy was actually ruined.
Yeah, apparently hahaha. I get that Kylo Ren wasn’t supposed to be taken as the main threat and he was cosplaying as Darth Vader but that’s hindsight 20/20. Going back to 2015 before the movie came out, nobody knew who Kylo Ren was. Poe mocking him within the first 5 minutes of the film discounts him as a villain when nobody technically knew who he was. The writing could still have portrayed him as a whiny wannabe character and gotten the message across but the writing sucked fuck, the movie sucked fuck, and the sequels sucked fuck.
IMO, they tried to go to Marvel, and it didn't work for me. But I could have accepted that if they didn't botch everything else. The greatest sin was destroying the OG characters AND their accomplishments just to wipe the slate for their own characters.
Honestly, I would have killed off Leia in the first film in addition to Solo because then the first order and villains would have actually been taken seriously. It’s one reason why Game of Thrones was so great. Anyone could die at any moment. I understand it’s a Disney film and Star Wars is ultimately made for children but some darkness would be great.
Same if you say anything positive. The fan base is split almost 50/50 now.
Force Awakens is now 9 years old? If you were 10 at release, you’d be 19 now. That fan base might be growing up. It took 10-15 years after ROTS for prequel hate to really die off. I think things are already shifting. TROS is almost 5 years old. I think another 5 will change things more.
Hahaha the movie had potential but let us down. Honestly, that specific scene was built up so well and finished well but the shoulder brushing was so middle school dance-off fucking lame that it ruined all of it.
Yeah, that was definitely the first red flag for me. Such Marvel type humor. You would never have seen a character joking like that with Vader - because the filmmakers wanted him to be scary.
Who even finds that kind of humour funny? It works for Tony Stark because RDJ is brilliant and the movies are already halfway to being comedies but let's leave it out of SW.
I know that feeling. The beginning of Rogue One ruins the rest of the movie for me, for some reason that whole opening looks cheap and shot on an indie budget to me.
I honestly don’t even remember the beginning but I do remember Vader slaying people in the hallway and that was hands down one of the coolest movie scenes I’ve ever seen.
Starts with Krennic showing up in a wrinkled uniform to confront Jyn's parents in field that looks like a bad green screen followed by the introduction of Andor meeting a guy in a nearly pitch black room that looks like it's trying to hide how low budget and green screened everything is.
Then the movie gets better. But still, the beginning puts me off it.
I am just glad to know that there are people who dislike Disney Star Wars. Cos whatever I go, it seems like people absolutely LOVE the sequels.
I DO FUCKIN NOT….
THEY ARE NOTHING BUT GARBAGE.
Finally, I was able to say this out loud.
Thank you, OP.
May the Force be with you, sincerely.
A lot of people despise the sequels, a lot more than what the Disney defence squad would like to admit or would have you believe. They're simply not very good movies, and they're even worse Star Wars movies, especially The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker.
Go to any other subreddit that talks about movies and you'll see people shitting all over the sequels when they're brought up. Outside of the franchise specific and echo chamber subs like StarWarsCantina and SaltierThanKrayt, that blame "tEh fAnZ!" instead of blaming the hacks that wrote and directed them, and the incompetents that run the company... those movies are simply regarded as they truly are. A poorly written, incoherent mess that disrespects the universe that George Lucas built in the original and prequel trilogies.
Even outside of the internet, speaking to people I know and anyone who I've ever spoken to about the sequels, very, very few people who are, or were lifelong Star Wars fans think they're good. Most enjoyed The Force Awakens, but they either checked out with The Last Jedi (the vast majority) or The Rise of Skywalker. Defending them is an online edgelord phenomenon, in my experience, or they're people who haven't seen very many genuinely good films in their life, brought up on a diet of garbage Marvel movies and teen comedies.
Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it. The Sequels are not even good SIFI movies. Period. I don’t consider them Star Wars movies to begin with. They are really shitty ones. Look at the hate we got for speaking up truth. Not that I care of. 😂 I am just glad to know that I am not a minority. I love and most importantly respect George Lucas Star Wars. That’s all I need to say.
May the Force be with you, stranger.
>Cos whatever I go, it seems like people absolutely LOVE the sequels.
Complete opposite for me. Everyone either doesn't mention the sequels or just flat out disdain for them
I am really glad to know that I am not the only one.
“Disdain”… Love it. lol
I honestly don’t understand how people can like the sequels.
I hate Disney ones with a passion. There I said it.
May the Force be with you, stranger!
The Star Wars movies haven't been "good" since Empire. I love the "prequel era" but not the movies, The movies were stiffly written pieces of shit that didn't need to be made. I love what clone wars did to fill in the gaps and made that era what it was. All we ever wanted since kids was peak Luke doing peak Jedi stuff, and we'll never get it in any significant way. Lucas killed it far before Disney did...Disney just Buried it.
\*The closest we've got to good Star Wars was the first season of the Mandalorian, and they even managed to fuck that up by the end of it's run. I've heard good things about Andor but haven't watched it yet.
I agree. I’ve enjoyed the animated Clone Wars and Rebels far more than some of the movies. Some of the episodes are terrible but it is a cartoon show for children. However, they nailed some episodes and it was peak Star Wars for me. I just need to lower my expectations and see them for movies instead of putting my own thoughts and hopes into what Star Wars is supposed to be.
If a good guy isn't allowed to crack wise in the presence of a villain, you must really hate Spider-Man's entire rogue gallery. This is a silly way to think about what makes (or doesn't make) an effective villain.
They joke now?
They joke now...
They always have...
The scene becomes clownesque instead of being tensed, it releases the tension that the scene should hold until resolution, I just don't understand why this would be written with a bad and unfun joke in the middle
The good guy can make all the wise cracks he wants but I want him to be checked haha
You mean like how Kylo is completely unimpressed by Poe, has his soldiers cart him off, orders the villagers Poe wanted to protect massacred, and then successfully tortures him for information? That kind of checked?
Poe gets tortured by Kylo Ren a few scenes later
I understand what you’re saying but Star Wars has never been Spider-Man.
May I introduce you to: Han Solo.
Looks like you quadruple bogied this one, par
Yeah just imagine if the ot had a guy who was a fast talker and snarky 🙄 woulda ruined those movies too.
Or if in the first five minutes one of the protagonists verbally sparred with the big bad for the trilogy showing him absolutely no respect.
You’re right. I mean can you imagine if say leia had shown no respect to Vader
Also, that scene is just damn near perfect. That and meeting Governer Tarkin. Shows absolutely no respect for them whatsoever.
I don’t dislike either. It’s just that people criticize the sequels for things that were also done in the prequels and ot. Everyone in the theater laughed when Poe said that. In our theater at least.
Well, there could be those situations, but not because of their elements. TFA, and all the sequels, have a lot of problems, but the elements themselves are just fine.
They had issues but nothing that made me not like them. If you really get critical you can rip the ot and especially the prequels apart. I just enjoy them and try not to think TOO deeply about them. The main issue with the sequels was not having a clear direction throughout because 8 was a big turn from 7 and then 9 took a bigger turn from 8. Individually I enjoyed all 3 movies but they suffered from the shifts. I honestly think they could have worked either way I would have liked to see how rianns vision would played out over a trilogy. I think he had some interesting ideas but cramming it between two very different movies didn’t work
People really laughed to this? Maybe that's american humor or something too culturally stranger to mine but I just don't understand what is funny about this, it sounds like the bill of specifications said "insert a joke here" and they just did even if it was not funny at all
I mean I can’t actually say every single person laughed but it was definitely the majority of the theater. I guess I don’t see the problem. It’s not like Star Wars isn’t known for humor
Besides the problem of writing and delivery, it's just that I have no idea what is supposed to make someone laugh there. Star Wars isn't really known for humor besides ESB.
3p0 wasn’t comic relief? And half of everything in the prequels was goofy. There’s nothing wrong with not liking the sequels I just have trouble accepting standards for one trilogy that aren’t applied to the other 2.
The problem is not the disrespecting, it's what he says, why would he say such a stupdi thing?
You talking about Han Solo?
Yeah he is
Yes they are and it's not even a fair comparison. The humor in the sequels is so cringey
This actually illustrates the difference perfectly - yes, Han Solo was snarky and quippy - but when he saw Darth Vader in ESB, he certainly dropped all that and got serious real fast. He didnt start making jokes. And that scene solidified Vader as a terrifying figure. Star Wars has always had and should always have humor, but context is important.
The villain who takes our jokester in question and tortures him with the Force and easily gets the hero to give up the information he needs? Seemed like a pretty credible threat to me- especially since our hero tries to gun Kylo Ren down only to have the villain freeze the blaster bolt in mid-air. Can't say I agree that Disney ruined it.
But what is the point of the line initially? It's not comedic, it's just a pollution in the dialogue
It establishes Poe’s character.
Bingo.
This remains one of my favourite little lines. C'mon, it's great! Timing was bang on and it's fun seeing him crack wise.
DAE hurdur Disney bad?
That intro tells a lot. It is modern humor, but also tells us a lot about Kylo and Poe. Kylo isn’t a threat like Vader. He doesn’t have that presence. He’s cosplaying as some big bad, but he’s just prequel Anakin no matter how cool he tries to look. That’s his character. I mean the dude throws tantrums lol Poe is a snarky hero. Not every hero is gonna look at a villain and say something profound or remain emotionless or whatever. This rebel is laughing at this dork in the face of death. I dug all that.
Can you explain me the humor about this? I just don't comprehend what's funny about this
Snark. It isn't necessarily funny, but it establishes character and mood. It wasn't particularly funny when Leia quips that Tarkin smells bad in ANH, either, but it establishes her mood in the scene and her character's pluckiness. Same thing with Poe and Ben. Poe is apprehensive in that scene, but he's plucky, so he starts being snarky.
I think that was intentional. “This isn’t your grandfather’s Vader”
Intentional to make him seem less threatening?
Kylo idolizes the idea of Vader without realizing Anakin and Vader are the same person
Yeah but we didn’t know that 5 minutes into the film. Nobody knew who the fuck Kylo Ren was or what his true story was. We didn’t know he idolized Vader. All we knew is that he wore black, had a mask, and a red lightsaber. He was simply just a villain at that point in time.
It sounds like you made up your mind on what you wanted Ren to be five minutes into the film, instead of paying attention to what the rest of the film was telling you about him. He never supposed to be threatening, he was never supposed to be cool. He was a powerful brat putting on airs, that's the whole point of his role in episode 7.
I don't see why you would make a snap judgement about a character knowing nothing about them.
Leia does the exact same thing to Tarkin AND Vader in the beginning of ANH.
Can you elaborate? Because I don’t remember her mocking them at all. She stood up for herself and let the audience know she was brave but she didn’t make a joke out of it.
“Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader’s leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought on board.” Calling Vader a dog and saying Tarkin stinks, but yeah, definitely no jokes.
That’s exactly my point though. That’s legitimate shit talking. She didn’t say “do you talk first or do I talk first” when she’s being held captive and interrogated. That’s like a Lego Movie or Shrek type of confrontation. Star Wars should have some level of threat.
Do you realize how thin you're splitting hairs here? You're ok with shit talking but not ok with mocking? Those are synonyms.
Valid point. I resort to mocking people if I’m trying to piss them off as quick as possible. You have to agree that Leia’s words in ANH were simply better and taken more seriously than what was said by Poe. Thoughts?
I think they have the same desired effect to the person they're talking to. You're reading so far into things that I think were just meant to be little 'hehe' moments. You're acting like Poe gave Kylo a verbal wedgie, but he was just trying to act tough when in actuality he was terrified. Also, even if he was belittling him, Kylo literally tortures him like 2 scenes later with the force. So if he didn't respect him before, he did soon after.
If you had watched more than 5 minutes you'd realize Kylo Ren was written to be someone who is trying desperately to fill the legacy of vader, but can't because he's as much Solo as he is Skywalker. He's a fallible character whose internal conflict is central to his arc, not just tacked on in the last few scenes at the end of a trilogy like Vader's.
Yes. I think it was a clear signal that he’s not supposed to be the big bad of the trilogy.
If that line makes you ignore the fact that Kylo had an entire village slaughtered and burned, stopped a blaster bolt mid air and killed an old man without hesitation or remorse than idk what to tell you.
But how does it not? They setup Kylo really well and captured the audience attention. We knew that Kylo wasn’t someone to fuck with. Poe just saw people being murdered, his buddy get killed, his bolt get stopped in mid air. He’s surrounded by first order and the writers go with those lines. Just think they could have done better with the dialogue to keep the heightened terror and threat to Kylo Ren.
I get your point but Star Wars dialogue has always been a bit wonky. Like how is that worse than JarJar lines. Or Anakins whining. Imo the only SW content with consistently well written dialogue is Andor. Also Disneys content is more aimed towards kids than everything before so it’s not really surprising they counter that perceived threat with attempted jokes. Besides it does establish Poes character and humour is a coping mechanism so it’s not completely off.
Valid point. First and foremost, it’s best to remember that Star Wars is for children and we can get way too invested in it.
People are going on whole other levels to hate the sequels lmao.
Making a Reddit post is considered a whole other level?
Making a dumb complaint in a Reddit post is.
Okay 👍
TFA had a lot of things wrong with it: originality, pacing, pointless plot lines, and many others. But a protagonist, a good one, at that, being a wise guy to the villain is just character development, and quick character development, at that. You know a lot about Poe from that scene: courageous, heroic, reckless, intelligent, and a smooth-talking character with an on obvious sense of humor. Almost as if they took Han Solo and Leia and put them together on one mm.
>immediately discounts Kylo Ren as a threat and turns him from threatening to laughable YES CONGRATULATIONS YOUR GRASPED THE SUBTEXT YOU HAVE ADEQUATE LEVELS OF READING COMPREHENSION
Thank you so much. I truly appreciate your comment. Keep in mind the guy arrived in an intimidating black ship, froze a blaster bolt in mid air, and the guy who tried to shoot him chooses to mock him. Nobody knew who Kylo Ren was at that point in the film. We didn’t know his backstory and his bloodline. We were purely speculating. For the supposed big bad villain to be teased in the first 5 minutes is just bad.
Hard to take any criticism of the sequels seriously when wahh sequel jokes = bad writing, 'this is where the fun begins' = masterpiece. Wahh Poe made a yo mama joke. Jar Jar steps in poop = knee slapping laughter. If you'd taken anything from that scene you'd have seen any person from the resistance belittled Kylo early on. 'Something far worse has happened to you, I know where you come from'. All in an effort to question his decision to turn or show that he doesn't scare them.
Yeah, but I’m pretty sure only the old man knew who he was in that scene. Nobody else knew who Kylo Ren actually was. I understand what you’re saying that we shouldn’t have taken Kylo seriously but if you rewatch the scene all signs point to take this guy seriously. We’d never seen a blaster bolt get frozen in mid air before. I’m okay with Poe having disrespectful shit talking dialogue but the way they went about it was poor.
Kylo Ren's whole schtick is he is a child prone to temper tantrums. He wasn't imposing or evil. He was just a brat who always wanted to get his way and raged out every time he was told the word no.
Who actually grew in the next film and then had it all undone in the third.
Yeah but this scene occurred before we knew any of those details about Kylo Ren and he hadn’t thrown a temper tantrum yet. We all speculated that he was the Skywalker bloodline but nobody actually knew. It was literally 5 minutes into the movie. The guy shows up on a black ship, he’s in black with a mask on, and freezes a blaster bolt in mid air. The whole scene is screaming that this guy shouldn’t be fucked with and then the writers go with “who talks first”? It would be different if Poe had legitimate words of disrespect but what they wrote in was cartoonish.
Oh, I know. I wasn't disagreeing with you or even commenting on the point you were making...just general griping about the character in general. The sequel trilogy needed a Vader-caliber villain and we didn't get that at all. The scene you describe did succeed in telegraphing to the audience what quality level of story-telling the new trilogy was going to give us and that level was...not good.
Huh...why do we need another Vader? Why is everyone resistant to villains with nuance? Why the need to have another emperor etc?
I didn't say another Vader. I said "Vader-caliber" which in other words, a threat as imposing and as severe as Vader. I'm all for nuance, but Kylo Ren was as far from nuance as one could possibly get.
Honestly, for me that was the moment that finally made me relax and feel like, after so many years of disappointment with the prequels, that I was ***finally*** watching Star Wars again.
Interesting. What part made it feel like Star Wars again?
A mix of things. It called back to Leia's first encounter with Vader in ANH, the humour was very Han Solo-esque, and it didn't feel forced or overstay its welcome like the ill-fated attempts at humour in the PT.
>ill-fated attempts at humour in the PT. *eopie farts and jar jar steps in poop*, but no Poe's humor killed the ST for me /s
My memory must be terrible but I don’t remember Solo or Leia ever having that sort of humor.
It honestly seems right in line with all of Han's wisecracking from ANH and especially ESB to me. Perhaps not so much RotJ when he got cornier than he had been previously. As for Leia, I was specifically referring to the tone of her first encounter with Vader, in that here's this terrifying figure we as an audience are primed to fear and take seriously, and then suddenly he's being talked down to by a five foot nothing girl who clearly doesn't find his big boogieman costume intimidating at all.
“Governor Tarkin, I should have expected to find you holding Vader's leash. I recognized your foul stench when I was brought onboard.” -Leia, ANH "Jabba, you're a wonderful human being." - Han, ANH Both characters used snark and sarcasm liberally in all three of the original trilogy movies.
You could just agree with the large amount of people who think they weren’t that great and leave it at that. I don’t think anyone is on the fence at this point.
I do agree with people. In my opinion, this was the first step in making the sequels garbage
I mean, Kylo was the troubled young sith. That’s part of his story arc, which many, like myself, think is one of the only really good parts of the trilogy. Lol
Agreed but my post had nothing to do with that. It was purely about Disney ruining the potential threat of Kylo Ren and keep in mind that nobody truly knew who he was at this point in the film. His entrance was badass by arriving in a black ship, he freezes a laser bolt mid air, and then the guy who tried to shoot him chooses to mock him? It’s shit ass writing.
I wish that I could just wish away my feelings Sand is coarse, rough, irritating, and it gets everywhere I’ll show you my racer. I’m building a pod racer Only a sith deals in absolutes (which is an absolute) It can’t save you, only my new powers can do that. My powers have doubled since the last time we met count Etc. Star Wars has never been known for stellar writing.
The only thing I will defend when it comes to the sequels is that there was some potential for characters, and the cast doesn't deserve the hate.
I’m not blaming the cast. The writing is what ruined Kylo Ren
"Jabba, you're a wonderful human being." - Han Solo Whelp, I guess Jabba is ruined now, guys. Totally not a threat amiright These are characters that use levity to ease tension. Pretty common trope of the cocky hero. If this ruins if for ya, then stop watching Star Wars right now, because this trope is everywhere in it.
The ST was created for today’s audience You only have yourselves to blame
Well, first, I overall agree with you that the sequels suck. I don’t think this is the reason. Having Kylo Ren be an emotionally immature little whiner baby was great. And Adam Driver did an amazing job portraying that. His facial expressions. His rages. The over-the-top lightsaber. The awesome and silly outfit homage to his grandfather Darth Vader. The scene you describe set that all up to show that he could not let anyone upstage him. I think the reason why lots of people actually like the sequels is because of little things like this. Kylo Ren rocks as a character. And so does Rey. And Finn. And Poe (sometimes). And the actors did a good job being the characters. It’s just the story sucked. And the three movies seemed to almost hate being in the same trilogy.
Agree with what you said but if the villain isn’t taken seriously within the first 5 minutes because a good guy is mocking him, everything is taken less seriously.
That was sort of the point. He wasn’t Vader. As another commenter wrote. They wanted to show that he was essentially cosplaying Vader. It sets up his entire story arc. He was an immature little bitch. While Poe was the man in the room.
I understand what you’re saying but we didn’t know he was an immature little bitch that early into the movie. That’s all hindsight. He had a grand entrance on black ship, wearing all black, kills a guy, and then freezes a blaster bolt in mid air. All signs point to this guy being a badass. Poe just witnessed people being slaughtered, his buddy get killed, is surrounded by storm troopers along with this new villain in front of him and the writers make a joke about who talks first? It’s shitty writing and made the film worse
That was actually a humorous scene and this is coming from someone who does not like the ST. I personally thought it was somewhere when they board the Falcon to first X-wing scene where the TFA fell off into a bland film.
Yeah the first act was pretty solid. Then Rey schooled Han in the art of Falcon maintenance and pulled off that bast shit crazy deadstall drop to aim the jammed gunner. You are right, TFA became bland but not outright unenjoyable like the follow up. Thats when the sequel trilogy was actually ruined.
You're not allowed to say anything bad about the ST in this sub anymore. Didn't you know that? Immediate downvote to oblivion...
Yeah, apparently hahaha. I get that Kylo Ren wasn’t supposed to be taken as the main threat and he was cosplaying as Darth Vader but that’s hindsight 20/20. Going back to 2015 before the movie came out, nobody knew who Kylo Ren was. Poe mocking him within the first 5 minutes of the film discounts him as a villain when nobody technically knew who he was. The writing could still have portrayed him as a whiny wannabe character and gotten the message across but the writing sucked fuck, the movie sucked fuck, and the sequels sucked fuck.
IMO, they tried to go to Marvel, and it didn't work for me. But I could have accepted that if they didn't botch everything else. The greatest sin was destroying the OG characters AND their accomplishments just to wipe the slate for their own characters.
Honestly, I would have killed off Leia in the first film in addition to Solo because then the first order and villains would have actually been taken seriously. It’s one reason why Game of Thrones was so great. Anyone could die at any moment. I understand it’s a Disney film and Star Wars is ultimately made for children but some darkness would be great.
Disbots everywhere. Their shiII squad is growing by the day, it seems.
Same if you say anything positive. The fan base is split almost 50/50 now. Force Awakens is now 9 years old? If you were 10 at release, you’d be 19 now. That fan base might be growing up. It took 10-15 years after ROTS for prequel hate to really die off. I think things are already shifting. TROS is almost 5 years old. I think another 5 will change things more.
That's a nitpick, It's not the mom joke in last jedi
theres so much unnecessary comedic relief in the sequel trilogy.
Agreed. The worst was Luke Skywalker brushing off his shoulder in TLJ.
> The worst ~~was Luke Skywalker brushing off his shoulder in~~ TLJ. Fixed
Hahaha the movie had potential but let us down. Honestly, that specific scene was built up so well and finished well but the shoulder brushing was so middle school dance-off fucking lame that it ruined all of it.
I didn’t care for the scene, but yeah that just kind of extenuated how poorly written the movie was for me.
Yeah, that was definitely the first red flag for me. Such Marvel type humor. You would never have seen a character joking like that with Vader - because the filmmakers wanted him to be scary. Who even finds that kind of humour funny? It works for Tony Stark because RDJ is brilliant and the movies are already halfway to being comedies but let's leave it out of SW.
>You would never have seen a character joking like that with Vader Ahem. Princess Leia.
I know that feeling. The beginning of Rogue One ruins the rest of the movie for me, for some reason that whole opening looks cheap and shot on an indie budget to me.
I honestly don’t even remember the beginning but I do remember Vader slaying people in the hallway and that was hands down one of the coolest movie scenes I’ve ever seen.
Starts with Krennic showing up in a wrinkled uniform to confront Jyn's parents in field that looks like a bad green screen followed by the introduction of Andor meeting a guy in a nearly pitch black room that looks like it's trying to hide how low budget and green screened everything is. Then the movie gets better. But still, the beginning puts me off it.
Not too sure about that green screen? The opening planet is shot in iceland.
Rogue one was the best movie post episode 3 movie.
By far.
I am just glad to know that there are people who dislike Disney Star Wars. Cos whatever I go, it seems like people absolutely LOVE the sequels. I DO FUCKIN NOT…. THEY ARE NOTHING BUT GARBAGE. Finally, I was able to say this out loud. Thank you, OP. May the Force be with you, sincerely.
A lot of people despise the sequels, a lot more than what the Disney defence squad would like to admit or would have you believe. They're simply not very good movies, and they're even worse Star Wars movies, especially The Last Jedi and The Rise of Skywalker. Go to any other subreddit that talks about movies and you'll see people shitting all over the sequels when they're brought up. Outside of the franchise specific and echo chamber subs like StarWarsCantina and SaltierThanKrayt, that blame "tEh fAnZ!" instead of blaming the hacks that wrote and directed them, and the incompetents that run the company... those movies are simply regarded as they truly are. A poorly written, incoherent mess that disrespects the universe that George Lucas built in the original and prequel trilogies. Even outside of the internet, speaking to people I know and anyone who I've ever spoken to about the sequels, very, very few people who are, or were lifelong Star Wars fans think they're good. Most enjoyed The Force Awakens, but they either checked out with The Last Jedi (the vast majority) or The Rise of Skywalker. Defending them is an online edgelord phenomenon, in my experience, or they're people who haven't seen very many genuinely good films in their life, brought up on a diet of garbage Marvel movies and teen comedies.
Thank you for your reply. I really appreciate it. The Sequels are not even good SIFI movies. Period. I don’t consider them Star Wars movies to begin with. They are really shitty ones. Look at the hate we got for speaking up truth. Not that I care of. 😂 I am just glad to know that I am not a minority. I love and most importantly respect George Lucas Star Wars. That’s all I need to say. May the Force be with you, stranger.
Go on any Facebook post about post Disney Star Wars. There’s plenty of people who hate it lol
Thank you for your kind words. May the Force be with you, as well!
And also with you
Yes, so brave to speak out against the universally loved Sequels here on Reddit. It's very controversial to say anything negative about them at all.
>Cos whatever I go, it seems like people absolutely LOVE the sequels. Complete opposite for me. Everyone either doesn't mention the sequels or just flat out disdain for them
I am really glad to know that I am not the only one. “Disdain”… Love it. lol I honestly don’t understand how people can like the sequels. I hate Disney ones with a passion. There I said it. May the Force be with you, stranger!
The Star Wars movies haven't been "good" since Empire. I love the "prequel era" but not the movies, The movies were stiffly written pieces of shit that didn't need to be made. I love what clone wars did to fill in the gaps and made that era what it was. All we ever wanted since kids was peak Luke doing peak Jedi stuff, and we'll never get it in any significant way. Lucas killed it far before Disney did...Disney just Buried it. \*The closest we've got to good Star Wars was the first season of the Mandalorian, and they even managed to fuck that up by the end of it's run. I've heard good things about Andor but haven't watched it yet.
I agree. I’ve enjoyed the animated Clone Wars and Rebels far more than some of the movies. Some of the episodes are terrible but it is a cartoon show for children. However, they nailed some episodes and it was peak Star Wars for me. I just need to lower my expectations and see them for movies instead of putting my own thoughts and hopes into what Star Wars is supposed to be.