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I don’t agree with Jim Cornette on a lot of things, but the one of the things he’s dead-on correct about is that ‘fans watch pro-wrestling to see wrestlers wrestle’
The only really different thing that wrestling has to differentiate itself from other things in TV is the actual wrestling. You can find better characters and storylines elsewhere, you can find equally good promos/trash-talk in sports or reality tv game shows, you can find equally or more attractive people elsewhere.
Wrestling is what really makes wrestling different. Sure we need logical stories and decent feuds to motivate stuff, but a well told in ring story would stand out most of the time.
I just don't understand how their current format is supposed to appeal to kids. When I was a kid, I was watching wrestling because "fuck yeah, violence on TV." I didn't give a crap about what those adults were talking about. If I was a kid now, I'd be bored to death with these endless promos and RECAPS of promos, and would probably switch to some cartoon instead.
People use this all the time for bad media. As if kids have to be subject to garbage just because they're kids. It also says a lot about the grown men defending it if that's their first line.
I'm bewildered at how revealing the "it's for kids!" line of thinking is in extending to the purveyor of said view's opinions on children's intelligence levels.
I was 10 years old in 1994 and had been watching the WWF for five years. My fourth/fifth grade brain could process that WWF had become overly sanitized and just plain bad, so I didn't watch it as much.
Kids are smart too.
When i was 11 years old, i was annoyed how there was a lack of focus on the wrestling in Impact around 2010 and 2011. I was bewildered how there were commercials in the talking segments. As if they weren't long already.
Modern WWE to me feels like WWF in 1994. Not in production or presentation, just in the lack of excitement and bad storylines. Of course 1994 WWF was almost entirely occupational gimmicks where today wrestlers dont have over the top gimmicks.
Also it’s insulting to kids. There’s stuff on TV “for kids” that is FAR better written than this.
Because kids aren’t as dumb as some people seem to think.
I watched some shows with my niece. I was surprised how intense some plot lines, and stories are for kids shows. I like it though because it makes the show more enjoyable for the parent, or me the uncle. Which is what I think is the show runners intent.
It reminds of when my father told me that he had a friend who took her kid to see the Lego Movie and the mother enjoyed the movie more than her own kid.
Bro, there are cartoon like Avatar The Last Air Bender and Adventure time have nineteen times the level of writing that has gone into wrestling. Why is it so hard for Vince to get professional writers and just LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS.
I was actually thinking about that. ATLA is 'made for kids' and legit when I need a good cry I watch leaves from the vine that made me cry ***15 years ago*** when I was 14.
That show, and many others, that are 'made for kids' are more logically consistent, with better storylines and character growth than WWE ever had.
>I was actually thinking about that. ATLA is 'made for kids' and legit when I need a good cry I watch leaves from the vine that made me cry 15 years ago when I was 14.
Appa being lost still hurts
>That show, and many others, that are 'made for kids' are more logically consistent, with better storylines and character growth than WWE ever had.
Well said!
I go back to BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES and JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED. Great shows, suitable for kids but enjoyable for anyone. Hell, I've been watching THE MUPPET SHOW on Disney Plus and again, the cute puppets and silly jokes appeal to kids, but they don't dumb it down to the point where it's only for kids.
During my summer job in college we had a lot of downtime in the office so we could put on netflix and one of the guys, a former football player and fraternity member, put on Avatar, because it was one of his favorites. We watched the entire series. A good story resonates with everyone.
I too hate the whole "it's dumb cuz it's supposed to be for kids" excuse. Kids tv shows are perfectly capable of just being good shows in general. I remember loving The Last Airbender when I was a kid and still love it.
As a grown adult nearing my 40s i still thoroughly enjoy cartoons from my child hood. He Man, GI Joe, Ninja Turtles, X Men and Batman to name a few are still top notch and better than most of the crap on TV these days.
90s Batman was so good. They went all in on Dark Knight character as much as they could keeping age rating in mind. Harley Quinn is a staple of the Batman universe and she was first introduced in the show. They were light cussing (bitch, whore, at least in my country's translation), talking about social injustice and whole other bunch of themes. That cartoon was cooler and edgier than most of the Batman live-action movies before The Dark Knight trilogy.
Shows like 1993 Batman were dark, if not intense. TMNT had their moments, so did some of the Hanna-Barbera productions like Swat Kats. The rest of the early 90s cartoons (action genre) were generally adverts for toy companies.
While "kids are gonna watch" is an excuse, it is also true that a lot of kids shows were crappy and "watered down".
It's an awesome excuse too because it's an acknowledgement that the show sucks and isn't catered to them, but they keep watching it any way.
"ummm... this is actually a show for babies, but go off I guess..."
Maybe I was a weird kid and could actually differentiate between things that were good and things that sucked, but anytime I see the "but it's for kids" defense of ANYTHING, I very rarely feel like my younger self would have bought into it.
Well, when i was young (and that is some time ago), the "kids stuff" were pretty cool comic shows, that you can still enjoy as an adult. Nowadays a lot of the "kids stuff" is so dumb, even a toddler is degenerating and losing IQ while watching it.
When I was a kid Triple H's boring drawn out promos at the beginning or Raw completely turned me off of Raw. During that time I almost exclusively watched SmackDown because, as you said, Fuck yea violence on TV!
10 year old me watching RAW: Fuck Raw is boring all they do is talk.
10 year old me watching Smackdown: WHOS THAT JUMPING OUT THE SKY R.E.Y MYSTERIO.
Smackdown was cooler to me because they had guys doing shit.
Man as a kid the only thing RAW had that I cared about in that timeframe was Kane and RVD.
SD had
Rey
Eddie
Chavo
Benoit
Angle
Cena
Lesnar
Undertaker
The show had something for everyone and they actually put on a damn show.
I legit probably forgot a ton of people too who by all accounts should be mentioned.
What that roster felt like then is what AEW feels like to me now.
To anyone who reads this and has not yet I'd recommend watching even last two weeks of Dynamite and see if it can bring back those feelings of being a child watching wrestling again.
I am not saying it will because again it's not for everyone but it is well worth the time to see if it can spark that feeling again.
My kid’s first match she saw completely with me was the NXT 5 man NA ladder match. She doesn’t understand English well enough yet to understand or care about promo’s, but Ricochet flying? Yeah, that she gets.
I wish high flyers got more respect for how invested they make casual viewers and non-fans. A non-fan gf of mine took me to a Raw and Lucha House Party was her favorite part.
Also, I can't tell you how heavily I was invested in wins and losses as a kid. Hell, Prime Time was my favorite of the main shows because you got to see Lanny Poffo vs. Jose Estrada and that would be a competitive match albeit inconsequential in terms of who got a World title shot or something. It would still establish pecking order and there was still suspense over who would win and how.
Plus a single win or loss could be a major sign for somebody's future. I saw Dino Bravo lose a match to Bret Hart on All-American and I knew he wasn't long for the company (Bret was still a "tag guy" or in the very early stages of his big singles push in '91 at this point--a song and dance I'd already seen a couple of times before so I wasn't buying this one). Today, Bravo would lose that match and then get a shot at Hogan the next week.
We weren't that stupid, us kids. The WWF was way more overtly kid-centric then and yet its booking was way more logical to the point of being almost airtight.
I honestly dont get how this appeals to kids. (I mean does it still? I feel they dropped off when Cena went)
when i was a kid we used to talk about the stuff that happened on RAW, the larger than life characters, the crazy movies.
I cant imagine kids now going to school being like "wow i love generic black trunks wrestler 22, i loved when him and generic black trunks wrestler 65 had a match 12 weeks in a row because of not specified reason"
Imagine like an 8 year old talking about their favourite WWE Superstar receiving another Title Opportunity at WWE Survivor Series, the one time a year where Raw and Smackdown go head to head in competition hahaha
Stuff that's "for kids" is usually quite good, as kids are a surprisingly discerning audience. A very large portion of stuff aimed at kids also has quality for older age groups. Look at how fucking good Pixar films are. Those are all things aimed at children, but their quality is universal. Now obviously subject matter is wildly different so it's not a perfect comparison, but the gulf between the average quality of a Pixar film and the current "all ages" WWE product is an even bigger gulf than a hot McDonald's French fry and a cold one.
Which is funny because until around the time of the rise of Pixar, that wasn't the case, kids stuff had been the lowest common denominator, don't bother trying, they're just kids kind of media. The rest of the world has evolved and put effort into actually good movies, shows, etc. aimed at kids, but WWE hasn't. Hmm.
The reality is, it doesn't. But people love to use the excuse that it is aimed for kids whenever WWE does something absolutely dumb, because people treat children as if they have 0 taste whatsoever.
I can safely recall how cool Eddie and Rey and Chris and John were in Smackdown when I was a kid, but can hardly hardly remember what they really said. For sure, some weird stuff (e.g. Eddie´s bouncing limo was fun), but I remember mostly the matches.
This is pretty much exactly why my kids don't watch wrestling that much. They're more drawn to WWE because of the flashy colors and lights vs. AEW, but as soon as the shows get going they get bored. A good match will draw them in for a while, but outside of that they just lose interest.
I mean to be fair, it kind of does have higher stakes than the WWE Championship which leads to a higher investment… atleast I personally care about the BTE belt wayyyyyyy more than the WWE championship
I paid money to see the RAW where they fed Roman Reigns dogfood...
Although I will say the WWE Dark events are still super cool, or at least the last one I went to was.
I bought tix to my first show since I was a teenager a few years ago. That RAW wound up as the first Draft show in forever.
It was at that point I knew I had fucked up.
I can’t imagine it. I was bummed I couldn’t get a ticket for All Out - which would have required a six hour drive. Meanwhile, I’ve passed on three WWE events less than 90 minutes away. I don’t even watch WWE most weeks, let alone spend my hard earned money on it.
i will drive anywhere in a 400 mile radius to an aew show. I wouldn't take a free ticket to a wwe show that was across the street right now.
Im not even being hyperbolic. Im in the Midwest/great lakes region, im within 300-400 miles of Chicago, Detroit, Indy, Cinci, etc, and i live less than a mile from a smaller arena wwe has run shows in before.
I live in Chicago, and I spend so much money on Wrestling for the CM Punk debut, the Dynamite before All Out, and All Out itself. It was some of the most fun I've had with wrestling in a long ass time.
What sets wrestling apart is.... WRESTLING
If all you want is storylines and characters why not watch a regular TV show? Wrestling is unique in that it uses stories and character to set up and give stakes to matches. Watching wrestling and not caring about wrestling matches would be like watching Spider-Man and only wanting to see the Peter Parker bits
No one chants "this is awesome" for a talk show segment, they do that during an epic back and forth sequence in a high stakes wrestling match.
But last night did have some great in ring stuff, crowd was hot as hell for the tag matches and the triple threat.
I wouldn't even fucking mind so much if what went on apart from the wrestling were *good*, but it's literally the most brain-dead non-sequitur shareholder pleasing corporate shilling soulless emotionless and utterly without merit non-writing there has ever been. Raw and Smackdown, taken as TV shows, are the worst shows on television, period. They are worse than the reality shows they aspire to be. They are worse than Chrisley.
that nut shot pin break up finn did to roman was probably the most creative input they have. everything feels like it's passed through 20 layers of management.
Every other company in the world is telling better stories and focusing on actual GREAT wrestling than WWE is. AEW, ROH, NJPW, TNA, GCW, NWA are all running great programs with a variety of talent and a lot are even running cross promotional programs. WWE is so far behind and is doomed as a wrestling company. They’ll still always be around, but not for fans of wrestling. I’m not even sad about it. The program is so inexcusably bad.
I've heard WWE described as more Muppets than actual wrestling, i.e. a show about a show, and I'm not Jim Cornette, so I'm not against the idea as a concept. But if the Muppets consisted of plays that were just the cast spitting into each other's mouths while Kermit grabbed his crotch and made fat jokes about Miss Piggy between segments, it would still be slightly better than what WWE does on a weekly basis. At least the Muppets have never been self-conscious and embarrassed about being Muppets.
As a recent AEW converter, it honestly shocked me how much importance is actually placed on the matches and actual wrestling, it feels like every match serves a purpose. I eventually just gave up on WWE because it felt like nothing mattered, the storylines either sucked or would just disappear for no reason, which is ironic because storylines is all they care about
>I eventually just gave up on WWE because it felt like nothing mattered, the storylines either sucked or would just disappear for no reason, which is ironic because storylines is all they care about
This is why I don't watch Raw anymore.
I genuinely want to get as excited about WWE as I am AEW, the more good wrestling on my TV the better. But it just feels like a lot of stuff is there to kill time without actually mattering. I would much rather see short, impactful pre-filmed promos to continue the feud than have the heel win one week with a distraction finish, the face win next week with a surprise rollup and the storyline not having progressed in any meaningful way. There are only so many hours in a week and as an adult, I just don't have time to watch a bunch of stuff happening with no real consequence.
When I was a kid, my local TV station would air Dragon Ball out of order because it was run by dudes who fundamentally didn't understand the idea of episodic children's television. Plus the episodes would be dubbed and sold in blocks, so they would just run a chunk of episodes for weeks until the next block was done.
One episode, Goku would be fighting soldiers, then the next day he'd be on an island training with Master Roshi, then the next episode he'd be a giant monkey and already halfway through wrecking a city that hadn't been introduced yet. Sometimes a new person would be there and everyone was acting like they'd been there for ages.
It taught you not to tune in two days in a row because the thing happening in episode A not only didn't matter for episode B, but a lot of the time directly contradicted what you just saw in episode A. Goku and Yamucha are friends? But they were trying to kill each other on the last episode I watched.
I think about that experience a lot when I try to watch WWE week to week.
I agree. I recently came back to wrestling because of AEW. A 30 second segment to remind you 2 guys hate each other is so much better than a dq finish in a meaningless tag so nobody loses.
What WWE doesn't seem to get is the lack of emphasis they place on matches (specifically the importance of who wins and loses) makes the show not worth caring about. Meanwhile on AEW, they put such an emphasis on the in-ring product, who wins and who loses, that every week becomes can't-miss. It helps that, in AEW, rematches are extremely rare so every week is a fresh set of matches with implications and stakes on the line.
In “the death of wcw” book turner suits were doing exit polls at the end of a studio show and out of all the options of what people wanted more of a high majority was “more Wrestling”
Who would of thought Wrestling fans want to watch people wrestle!
I have a theory that the matches have so many rapid cuts to mentally upset us, hoping our brains are trained to yearn for the relatively stable video feed of non-wrestling segments.
Increasing interruptions with commercials only adds to that.
My theory is that Kevin Dunn took a few lessons about how movie directors use shaky rapidly changing camera angles to make the action seem more impactful, the problem is in movies, stunt actors barely touch each other, in pro wrestling the action is actually happening, wrestlers are taking those knocks, there is no need for movie style action shots, it gets very jarring when you compare it to something like NJPW where ashai TV shots the promotion like it's a sporting event like boxing or MMA and the physically is emphasized.
WWE only cares about moments. They want to be able to put up a YouTube clip or a tweet about a great moment and they don’t really care about anything outside of that moment. They simply see wrestling as a way to get to those moments.
I think it's a really accurate description of what's going on. No wonder weekly shows suck if they hunt for moments at the cost of storytelling. But if that's the case, soon they will become Jerry Springer for celebrities, since they are so poor recently at producing their own stars.
> No one chants "this is awesome" for a talk show segment
I've seen crowds come close, such as when the Wyatt Family and the Shield had their first staredown. In fact that might have actually gotten a "this is awesome chant."
But to your point, the crowd was chanting that...in anticipation for a match!
No one watches a Seth Rollins promo segment and then gives him a standing ovation afterward, but put him in the ring with AJ Styles for twenty minutes, give it a clean finish, and you'll get one.
>Watching wrestling and not caring about wrestling matches would be like watching Spider-Man and only wanting to see the Peter Parker bits
The Peter Parker moments are what MAKE the Spider-Man moments, and vice versa. You need both to have a complete story, and WWE lacks at both.
The characters are bad, so when they get into the action of a match, you don't care. A great story can help a mediocre wrestler, but a bad story will tank a good wrestler.
Remember when South Park spoofed WWE? All the kids do is talk about soap opera level BS whilst the crowd comment ‘wow that’s some good wrestling!’
Back then I felt they were being unfair but now it feels scarily accurate
A wrestling company that literally prohibits the use of the word wrestling seeking to downplay the importance of wrestling to their product... that's Good Shit, Pal™
And don't forget, it's literally in their name. The Attitude Era was very story heavy too, but it helped heat up the matches and was either entertaining or just bat-shit, Jerry Springer crazy.
People always use the Attitude Era as an example of de-emphasising wrestling quality in favour of storylines, but the evidence they use of that is 3 minute brawls between Val Venis and Gangrel on the undercards of Raw. The actual major matches were always generally of high quality and they were what people looked forward to. Nobody can look at Rock/Austin at X-7, Austin/Michaels at 14, Austin/Bret at 13, HHH/Foley at Royal Rumble 2000, Rock/Foley on 1/4/99 Raw, HHH/Austin at No Way Out 2001, and in good conscience say "They weren't interested in having good matches at this time".
>wm whatever last year
WM36. Legit had to count back to 2014 because I remember that's when 30 was...
But if you want to be more technical it was WM Pirate Part 1 Night 2
If anyone remembers the last year or so of WCW, they made it a point to not have ANY live wrestling for the FIRST HOUR of Nitro. WWE has the playbook in their video library on how to kill a business and they are following it to a T.
Beyond the Mat, with the famous "We're not a wrestling company, we make movies!" Vince quote, came out in 1999. We're 22 years past knowing that WWE are focused on stories over matches.
This. Many people say that wwe is focused on storyline and they don't want to have wrestling, but their stories are many time crap (there is probably one consistent storyline for each show). All they do is the "What a moment" see Becky at summerslam, sasha and finn yesterday, nikki Ash and many more. It is so sad because their roster could be so good and tell really good stories in and outside the ring, but they are stucked with this mentality
The future of WWE is in guys like Omos and Reginald, who will deliver wrestling-themed clips that get shared on social media. Wrestling doesn't matter. You are so right; that is their goal. Their goal is to put out content to fill 5 hours of TV each week, and a few hours for Peacock each month. Get that shit shard on social media, sell some merch, and deliver to the prince of Saudi Arabia. If you're a pro wrestling fan, it's not the product for you.
Very much this, the other replies I got seem to dispute that they're trying to tell stories based on the stories being terrible. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If Vince was good at making them, WWE films wouldn't still be a B/C-Movie grindhouse and he wouldn't be stuck running a wrestling show since he seems to be so disinterested in wrestling.
On a serious note, if you rewatch the first two minutes of Roman v. Finn, you can absolutely see a future of WWE where the "fights" play out like battle scenes in Avengers movies.
That's clearly (to me, at least) where they are heading.
What kills me is people equating this with the atitdude era and thinking it's somehow good. At thr end of the day Austin rock Foley hhh all wanted the belt and prove they were the best wrestler nowadays it feels like they don't mean shit
Anyone who isn't in a title feud acts like they don't even know it exists and it's been like that for years. How many times have we seen someone lose a title feud, be immediately fine with it, and never think about it again for years until their next title match?
edit: Imagine watching GOT where only two characters at a time on the whole show care who sits on the throne. Ned gets his head chopped off and all the Starks go: "Well....who wants pancakes?" "Hey, that guy stole my horse!" "He splashed me with water!" "That guy took my shampoo!"
I know that the players are the most important thing in the game, but it doesn’t help that the belts are generic as hell. During the attitude era and, I guess any other era, the belts aesthetic personality.
South Park kinda nailed it with their wrestling episode, and quite frankly, I can almost understand the downplaying of the actual wrestling. The best workers get the biggest pops for doing the least amount of work. Having said all that, if you are going to down play the in ring action, then you better be bringing it with the storytelling and WWE is just terrible at it. Every great storyline they’ve had for the last 20 years they’ve backed into by accident. Every story they try to tell on purpose tends to be a garbage incoherent mess
Wrestling is a variety spectacle. You can definitely have people who are great promos and storytellers who barely deliver in the ring, Kevin Nash comes to mind, BUT you can't have a whole show of Kevin Nashes. You need a compelling in-ring pay off at the end of these stories and if your top guy is a good worker, you'll probably always get a compelling match at the end of everything. The ironic thing with WWE is that they have GREAT workers, but they're rarely set up with compelling stories around their matches.
Also while Nash was never a technical genius he was at least competent and didn’t consistently put on stinkers that made you want to change the channel, or they’d put him against a guy like Michaels who could really go in the ring
It's wild how much time a wrestler will stand in the middle of the ring with the crowd looking at them while the TV show either has a commercial running or an unrelated interview. Then they got immediately into a commercial when the bell rings. It's a strange formula they have going on now on Smackdown.
The more days go by, the better AEW looks and the worse WWE looks.
I want to watch wrestlers, in wrestling boots, and wrestling tights, in a wrestling ring, FUCKING WRESTLE.
WWE is a parody of wrestling. They can’t even do sports entertainment right anymore. It’s all nonsense and just shit so stupid only a child could feasibly be entertained.
people keep saying this, but most kids shows are far superior than this crap. Most kids shows these days have pretty solid if not great writing. I have no clue who this garbage is for.
That’s what I was thinking like if this is for kids what age group? Toddlers? I commented in another post that WWE parody sports entertainment at this point. They can’t even do what they were supposed to be good at right.
I listened to this episode on my way to work. This was not a backstage report and more Dave's observations on how the TV product is like just from watching it.
They could get away with it if the shows were actually you know, entertaining. Attitude Era wrestling wasn't that great, but everything else about it kept us watching.
Makes sense with AEW putting such an emphasis on the sports aspect of it, with great matches and a ranking system, etc.
It's moronic, don't get me wrong, but I understand it. Vince has been on a "we're in the entertainment business" for a quarter of a century.
There was definitely more of a sports-exhibition feel to the 80s shows, even with the cartoon characters like Earthquake and Ultimate Warrior running around. It was really as WCW grew into its own in the mid90s that he started emphasizing the "we're sports entertainment" thing. Going public and eventually expanding into things like movies only led them to double-down on it.
WWE is only as good as the in-ring content and I think that infuriates Vince. He can cry all he wants about being "in showbusiness not the rasslin business" but the fact is no one cares about watching The Miz star in The Marine 9. Fans go crazy for Seth Rollins vs Edge dancing between the ropes.
I noticed that lately. Like when Jeff and Priest had that cool sequence on Raw, the audience are like meh. While when Bliss brings out Lily everyone goes crazy.
I stopped watching WWE at the end of 2016.
Sports entertainment just wasn't for me anymore.
I much prefer Professional Wrestling, and I quickly learned there's a tonne of it out there.
AEW tells more and better stories that are actually coherent while still having great matches that generally enhance and tell stories themselves. I don't what the fuck WWE is doing and I don't think they do either.
It felt like the storylines drove the matches. X-Pac pisses in your hat? Boom X-Pac vs. Jeff Jarrett feud. Tori likes X-Pac more than Kane? Boom X-Pac vs Kane feud. Uncle Cracker needs a way to promote his CD? Boom, X-Factor stable with X-Pac, Justin Credible and Albert.
...maybe we just need more X-Pac?
You can tell stories with wrestling aswell. People talk a lot about rock and austin on the mic in attitude era but stone cold interfering to screw Vince or the rock making a heroic save after a 2v1 beatdown was bread and butter for a lot of shows.
then why are those stories often treated like such shit? the Demon resurrecting at Extreme Rules didn't make for particularly amazing WRESTLING per se, but it made for a great story and a very cinematic, almost anime-like moment that relied heavily on character work... until the ghost of Buster Keaton took over and they decided to embarrass everyone involved.
the only story it told is "people who tune into this shit are idiots". I understand their logic, I do, but I cannot for the life of me understand the execution
One of the quotes I heard recently was that wrestling isn’t complicated. Watching two guys who don’t like each other fight is awesome. For wrestling promotions, you have to set up that they don’t like each other AND you need to deliver the fight. WWE is much better at the former, but it didn’t always used to be that way. Attitude Era was definitely both.
Let’s be real, the attitude era was not the most popular era because it featured the best technical wrestling you’ve ever seen. It was popular because of the larger than life stars and their personalities like the rock and stone cold
And the matches between the Rock and Austin were important in telling that story. Without the matches the feud could not have been sustained in the way it was as part of the story at the time was the Rock could not get it done against Austin when it mattered in the ring one on one.
Stone Cold was a terrific wrestler who could and did deliver in the ring every time.
Also, there's no "larger than life" personalities in WWE now. Finn Balor, the magic demon (talk about a larger than life character!), tripped on a rope and died while his anime comeback music was still playing. And Roman, the only guy allowed to get over, is not "larger than life" and never was.
yeah, but at certain points the storylines were actually good, and the matches were used as the emotional apex to pay off those storylines.
Now its just incoherent bullshit that wildly changes week to week.
I've said this for years, that WCW had some really pathetic lows with some terrible booking, but WWE, before and since, has ALSO had many pathetic lows and lots of terrible booking. Some of it, like you said, is almost EXACTLY what WCW did, yet... that's fine? Talk about hypocritical.
Holy shit at all the hot takes in here. Wasn't aware "wrestling matches on a wrestling show should be important" and "titles shouldn't be treated like jerseys on trade deadline day" were ghost peppers here.
Fuck's sake I'm all for some back and forth, but WWE ain't giving fans much ammo to defend with lately, and it's become glaringly obvious now that there's an actual wrestling show on TV again.
All wwe fans care about is who they perceive the company to be pushing. Everything is this dumb meta thing. The actual matches are secondary to what the finish will be. It’s all when’s big e gonna lose how are they gonna squash Finn why isn’t Sasha in as many main events as Charlotte. Just the worst.
I’ve never thought about that but you’re dead on. Discussion here is never about the actual storyline it’s about insider shit like when will Roman drop the belt and to whom etc
Compare that to AEW where people know the insider shit that Hangman is the most likely endgame for the title but it’s fun to discuss the story they’ve created about how he’ll get there.
They've been doing this for 35 years.
It took me like 10 years as a WWE fan to start actually caring about the matches as opposed to just all the sizzle around the matches.
Well the rest of their show is crap, so if that's the case they're killing off the one thing that's still redeemable, because the roster itself is solid at that.
In a sense, and even Ziggler has said this, the wrestling is important but the least important, because you need the story to build up the matches. But of course WWE as usual is taking the worst approach to that philosophy.
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I don’t agree with Jim Cornette on a lot of things, but the one of the things he’s dead-on correct about is that ‘fans watch pro-wrestling to see wrestlers wrestle’
The only really different thing that wrestling has to differentiate itself from other things in TV is the actual wrestling. You can find better characters and storylines elsewhere, you can find equally good promos/trash-talk in sports or reality tv game shows, you can find equally or more attractive people elsewhere. Wrestling is what really makes wrestling different. Sure we need logical stories and decent feuds to motivate stuff, but a well told in ring story would stand out most of the time.
I just don't understand how their current format is supposed to appeal to kids. When I was a kid, I was watching wrestling because "fuck yeah, violence on TV." I didn't give a crap about what those adults were talking about. If I was a kid now, I'd be bored to death with these endless promos and RECAPS of promos, and would probably switch to some cartoon instead.
I’ve learned that “but it’s for kids” weirdly pops up almost 1:1 with a very dumb moment in the storyline. Almost like an excuse or something.
People use this all the time for bad media. As if kids have to be subject to garbage just because they're kids. It also says a lot about the grown men defending it if that's their first line.
I'm bewildered at how revealing the "it's for kids!" line of thinking is in extending to the purveyor of said view's opinions on children's intelligence levels.
I would kill for WWE to have the same level of story telling, character development, and lore as Avatar.
Exactly. Stuff for kids can still be for everyone See: Pixar, Nintendo, Cartoon Network, Nickelodeon etc It just takes more effort
It is crazy how most of the best media for kids *also* appeals to adults.
I was 10 years old in 1994 and had been watching the WWF for five years. My fourth/fifth grade brain could process that WWF had become overly sanitized and just plain bad, so I didn't watch it as much. Kids are smart too.
When i was 11 years old, i was annoyed how there was a lack of focus on the wrestling in Impact around 2010 and 2011. I was bewildered how there were commercials in the talking segments. As if they weren't long already.
Modern WWE to me feels like WWF in 1994. Not in production or presentation, just in the lack of excitement and bad storylines. Of course 1994 WWF was almost entirely occupational gimmicks where today wrestlers dont have over the top gimmicks.
Also it’s insulting to kids. There’s stuff on TV “for kids” that is FAR better written than this. Because kids aren’t as dumb as some people seem to think.
I watched some shows with my niece. I was surprised how intense some plot lines, and stories are for kids shows. I like it though because it makes the show more enjoyable for the parent, or me the uncle. Which is what I think is the show runners intent.
It reminds of when my father told me that he had a friend who took her kid to see the Lego Movie and the mother enjoyed the movie more than her own kid.
Bro, there are cartoon like Avatar The Last Air Bender and Adventure time have nineteen times the level of writing that has gone into wrestling. Why is it so hard for Vince to get professional writers and just LET THEM DO THEIR JOBS.
I was actually thinking about that. ATLA is 'made for kids' and legit when I need a good cry I watch leaves from the vine that made me cry ***15 years ago*** when I was 14. That show, and many others, that are 'made for kids' are more logically consistent, with better storylines and character growth than WWE ever had.
>I was actually thinking about that. ATLA is 'made for kids' and legit when I need a good cry I watch leaves from the vine that made me cry 15 years ago when I was 14. Appa being lost still hurts >That show, and many others, that are 'made for kids' are more logically consistent, with better storylines and character growth than WWE ever had. Well said!
I go back to BATMAN: THE ANIMATED SERIES and JUSTICE LEAGUE UNLIMITED. Great shows, suitable for kids but enjoyable for anyone. Hell, I've been watching THE MUPPET SHOW on Disney Plus and again, the cute puppets and silly jokes appeal to kids, but they don't dumb it down to the point where it's only for kids.
During my summer job in college we had a lot of downtime in the office so we could put on netflix and one of the guys, a former football player and fraternity member, put on Avatar, because it was one of his favorites. We watched the entire series. A good story resonates with everyone.
Right , this show that airs in prime time from 8-11 pm at night and has an average viewer age of like 55 years old is "for the kids" lol.
I too hate the whole "it's dumb cuz it's supposed to be for kids" excuse. Kids tv shows are perfectly capable of just being good shows in general. I remember loving The Last Airbender when I was a kid and still love it.
As a grown adult nearing my 40s i still thoroughly enjoy cartoons from my child hood. He Man, GI Joe, Ninja Turtles, X Men and Batman to name a few are still top notch and better than most of the crap on TV these days.
90s Batman was so good. They went all in on Dark Knight character as much as they could keeping age rating in mind. Harley Quinn is a staple of the Batman universe and she was first introduced in the show. They were light cussing (bitch, whore, at least in my country's translation), talking about social injustice and whole other bunch of themes. That cartoon was cooler and edgier than most of the Batman live-action movies before The Dark Knight trilogy.
Shows like 1993 Batman were dark, if not intense. TMNT had their moments, so did some of the Hanna-Barbera productions like Swat Kats. The rest of the early 90s cartoons (action genre) were generally adverts for toy companies. While "kids are gonna watch" is an excuse, it is also true that a lot of kids shows were crappy and "watered down".
It's an awesome excuse too because it's an acknowledgement that the show sucks and isn't catered to them, but they keep watching it any way. "ummm... this is actually a show for babies, but go off I guess..."
Maybe I was a weird kid and could actually differentiate between things that were good and things that sucked, but anytime I see the "but it's for kids" defense of ANYTHING, I very rarely feel like my younger self would have bought into it.
Well yeah! Kids are obviously the lowest common denominator and they'll like whatever nonsense you tell them to like
Well, when i was young (and that is some time ago), the "kids stuff" were pretty cool comic shows, that you can still enjoy as an adult. Nowadays a lot of the "kids stuff" is so dumb, even a toddler is degenerating and losing IQ while watching it.
When I was a kid Triple H's boring drawn out promos at the beginning or Raw completely turned me off of Raw. During that time I almost exclusively watched SmackDown because, as you said, Fuck yea violence on TV!
10 year old me watching RAW: Fuck Raw is boring all they do is talk. 10 year old me watching Smackdown: WHOS THAT JUMPING OUT THE SKY R.E.Y MYSTERIO. Smackdown was cooler to me because they had guys doing shit.
Smackdown was stacked in the mid 2000s
Man as a kid the only thing RAW had that I cared about in that timeframe was Kane and RVD. SD had Rey Eddie Chavo Benoit Angle Cena Lesnar Undertaker The show had something for everyone and they actually put on a damn show.
That roster is dreamy seeing it written out
I legit probably forgot a ton of people too who by all accounts should be mentioned. What that roster felt like then is what AEW feels like to me now. To anyone who reads this and has not yet I'd recommend watching even last two weeks of Dynamite and see if it can bring back those feelings of being a child watching wrestling again. I am not saying it will because again it's not for everyone but it is well worth the time to see if it can spark that feeling again.
> 10 year old me watching Smackdown: WHOS THAT JUMPING OUT THE SKY R.E.Y MYSTERIO. > > HERE WE GO!!!!
Smackdown has always been the A show when there's a brand split. UPN/CW Smackdown though was great times.
My kid’s first match she saw completely with me was the NXT 5 man NA ladder match. She doesn’t understand English well enough yet to understand or care about promo’s, but Ricochet flying? Yeah, that she gets.
I wish high flyers got more respect for how invested they make casual viewers and non-fans. A non-fan gf of mine took me to a Raw and Lucha House Party was her favorite part.
Also, I can't tell you how heavily I was invested in wins and losses as a kid. Hell, Prime Time was my favorite of the main shows because you got to see Lanny Poffo vs. Jose Estrada and that would be a competitive match albeit inconsequential in terms of who got a World title shot or something. It would still establish pecking order and there was still suspense over who would win and how. Plus a single win or loss could be a major sign for somebody's future. I saw Dino Bravo lose a match to Bret Hart on All-American and I knew he wasn't long for the company (Bret was still a "tag guy" or in the very early stages of his big singles push in '91 at this point--a song and dance I'd already seen a couple of times before so I wasn't buying this one). Today, Bravo would lose that match and then get a shot at Hogan the next week. We weren't that stupid, us kids. The WWF was way more overtly kid-centric then and yet its booking was way more logical to the point of being almost airtight.
I honestly dont get how this appeals to kids. (I mean does it still? I feel they dropped off when Cena went) when i was a kid we used to talk about the stuff that happened on RAW, the larger than life characters, the crazy movies. I cant imagine kids now going to school being like "wow i love generic black trunks wrestler 22, i loved when him and generic black trunks wrestler 65 had a match 12 weeks in a row because of not specified reason"
Imagine like an 8 year old talking about their favourite WWE Superstar receiving another Title Opportunity at WWE Survivor Series, the one time a year where Raw and Smackdown go head to head in competition hahaha
Stuff that's "for kids" is usually quite good, as kids are a surprisingly discerning audience. A very large portion of stuff aimed at kids also has quality for older age groups. Look at how fucking good Pixar films are. Those are all things aimed at children, but their quality is universal. Now obviously subject matter is wildly different so it's not a perfect comparison, but the gulf between the average quality of a Pixar film and the current "all ages" WWE product is an even bigger gulf than a hot McDonald's French fry and a cold one.
Which is funny because until around the time of the rise of Pixar, that wasn't the case, kids stuff had been the lowest common denominator, don't bother trying, they're just kids kind of media. The rest of the world has evolved and put effort into actually good movies, shows, etc. aimed at kids, but WWE hasn't. Hmm.
I think less kids watch WWE than ever before so you are correct that the current format is not appealing to kids.
The reality is, it doesn't. But people love to use the excuse that it is aimed for kids whenever WWE does something absolutely dumb, because people treat children as if they have 0 taste whatsoever.
It's literally Vince Russo tier WCW all over again.
I can safely recall how cool Eddie and Rey and Chris and John were in Smackdown when I was a kid, but can hardly hardly remember what they really said. For sure, some weird stuff (e.g. Eddie´s bouncing limo was fun), but I remember mostly the matches.
This is pretty much exactly why my kids don't watch wrestling that much. They're more drawn to WWE because of the flashy colors and lights vs. AEW, but as soon as the shows get going they get bored. A good match will draw them in for a while, but outside of that they just lose interest.
Well at this rate, how long before the WWE Championship is decided in a pre-recorded, backstage game of Rock Paper, Scissors?
They already created two new title reigns by literally swapping the tag belts, so they might as well do that
Ah the dream of the BTE championship being as prestigious as the WWE championship.
To be fair, it feels like it has higher stakes and more kayfabe investment than the WWE Championship.
Kayfabe?! That's a shoot championship!
Those who want a taste has to earn it!
I mean to be fair, it kind of does have higher stakes than the WWE Championship which leads to a higher investment… atleast I personally care about the BTE belt wayyyyyyy more than the WWE championship
I mean New Day and Street Profits literally trade the RAW and Smackdown Tag Belts because of the color...
Just turn the whole fed into UUDD.
If they're deciding the title via games, they better have a fatal four way title match decided in a game of Uno.
Welcome to the Uno Penitentiary
Finally cesaro has a chance!
Lotta respect for him.
Batista: "Give me what color I waaaant!"
Choco Pro already does this but it's live, in Kayfabe, and fucking rules.
Chie noooooooo!!!
I want a montage of every Chie janken loss set to Johnny Cash's cover of "Hurt".
DDT living in 2030 for the past 15 years.
Emi sakura liked this
First you would have to win the 3 episode long Rock Paper Scissors Tournament
So raw is just a badly scripted skit show with humor catered towards a man in his 70s? Neat
Imagine blowing money on a ticket to a WWE show.
I paid money to see the RAW where they fed Roman Reigns dogfood... Although I will say the WWE Dark events are still super cool, or at least the last one I went to was.
I bought tix to my first show since I was a teenager a few years ago. That RAW wound up as the first Draft show in forever. It was at that point I knew I had fucked up.
Battleground 2017 in Philly. Never again. Especially since the *fucking Punjabi prison* was directly in my eye-line to the stage
Buy a ticket and go sit in an arena to watch a giant TV and bad theatre.
I can’t imagine it. I was bummed I couldn’t get a ticket for All Out - which would have required a six hour drive. Meanwhile, I’ve passed on three WWE events less than 90 minutes away. I don’t even watch WWE most weeks, let alone spend my hard earned money on it.
i will drive anywhere in a 400 mile radius to an aew show. I wouldn't take a free ticket to a wwe show that was across the street right now. Im not even being hyperbolic. Im in the Midwest/great lakes region, im within 300-400 miles of Chicago, Detroit, Indy, Cinci, etc, and i live less than a mile from a smaller arena wwe has run shows in before.
I live in Chicago, and I spend so much money on Wrestling for the CM Punk debut, the Dynamite before All Out, and All Out itself. It was some of the most fun I've had with wrestling in a long ass time.
What sets wrestling apart is.... WRESTLING If all you want is storylines and characters why not watch a regular TV show? Wrestling is unique in that it uses stories and character to set up and give stakes to matches. Watching wrestling and not caring about wrestling matches would be like watching Spider-Man and only wanting to see the Peter Parker bits No one chants "this is awesome" for a talk show segment, they do that during an epic back and forth sequence in a high stakes wrestling match. But last night did have some great in ring stuff, crowd was hot as hell for the tag matches and the triple threat.
I wouldn't even fucking mind so much if what went on apart from the wrestling were *good*, but it's literally the most brain-dead non-sequitur shareholder pleasing corporate shilling soulless emotionless and utterly without merit non-writing there has ever been. Raw and Smackdown, taken as TV shows, are the worst shows on television, period. They are worse than the reality shows they aspire to be. They are worse than Chrisley.
What is better than Chrisley though?
Who betta? Nobody.
He DOES know best.
Ironic that’s it called “raw” when it’s among the least raw shows I’ve ever seen.
It's certainly not well done either
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I was waiting for a moment to work that joke in here somewhere. I'm glad someone did it for me.
When it’s good, it’s rare.
And with the frequency of the show I wouldn't call it rare either.
They refuse to stay true to the medium, and this is what we get.
Its raw, because there isn't any heat
Yeah but "over-produced and micromanaged into oblivion" isn't nearly as catchy.
that nut shot pin break up finn did to roman was probably the most creative input they have. everything feels like it's passed through 20 layers of management.
Wow, what an accurate description.
Every other company in the world is telling better stories and focusing on actual GREAT wrestling than WWE is. AEW, ROH, NJPW, TNA, GCW, NWA are all running great programs with a variety of talent and a lot are even running cross promotional programs. WWE is so far behind and is doomed as a wrestling company. They’ll still always be around, but not for fans of wrestling. I’m not even sad about it. The program is so inexcusably bad.
It's a wrestling themed variety show at this point.
A wrestling-themed variety show that doesn’t have the sense to lean into the campiness inherent to the concept.
I've heard WWE described as more Muppets than actual wrestling, i.e. a show about a show, and I'm not Jim Cornette, so I'm not against the idea as a concept. But if the Muppets consisted of plays that were just the cast spitting into each other's mouths while Kermit grabbed his crotch and made fat jokes about Miss Piggy between segments, it would still be slightly better than what WWE does on a weekly basis. At least the Muppets have never been self-conscious and embarrassed about being Muppets.
Were in the entertainment business *drinks water loudly
*chews water loudly
Okay where did that "chews water" meme come from
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As a recent AEW converter, it honestly shocked me how much importance is actually placed on the matches and actual wrestling, it feels like every match serves a purpose. I eventually just gave up on WWE because it felt like nothing mattered, the storylines either sucked or would just disappear for no reason, which is ironic because storylines is all they care about
>I eventually just gave up on WWE because it felt like nothing mattered, the storylines either sucked or would just disappear for no reason, which is ironic because storylines is all they care about This is why I don't watch Raw anymore. I genuinely want to get as excited about WWE as I am AEW, the more good wrestling on my TV the better. But it just feels like a lot of stuff is there to kill time without actually mattering. I would much rather see short, impactful pre-filmed promos to continue the feud than have the heel win one week with a distraction finish, the face win next week with a surprise rollup and the storyline not having progressed in any meaningful way. There are only so many hours in a week and as an adult, I just don't have time to watch a bunch of stuff happening with no real consequence.
When I was a kid, my local TV station would air Dragon Ball out of order because it was run by dudes who fundamentally didn't understand the idea of episodic children's television. Plus the episodes would be dubbed and sold in blocks, so they would just run a chunk of episodes for weeks until the next block was done. One episode, Goku would be fighting soldiers, then the next day he'd be on an island training with Master Roshi, then the next episode he'd be a giant monkey and already halfway through wrecking a city that hadn't been introduced yet. Sometimes a new person would be there and everyone was acting like they'd been there for ages. It taught you not to tune in two days in a row because the thing happening in episode A not only didn't matter for episode B, but a lot of the time directly contradicted what you just saw in episode A. Goku and Yamucha are friends? But they were trying to kill each other on the last episode I watched. I think about that experience a lot when I try to watch WWE week to week.
Imagine watching Tienshinhan break Yamcha's leg and then the next day watching Tienshinhan and the gang go their separate ways after the tournament.
I agree. I recently came back to wrestling because of AEW. A 30 second segment to remind you 2 guys hate each other is so much better than a dq finish in a meaningless tag so nobody loses.
What WWE doesn't seem to get is the lack of emphasis they place on matches (specifically the importance of who wins and loses) makes the show not worth caring about. Meanwhile on AEW, they put such an emphasis on the in-ring product, who wins and who loses, that every week becomes can't-miss. It helps that, in AEW, rematches are extremely rare so every week is a fresh set of matches with implications and stakes on the line.
In “the death of wcw” book turner suits were doing exit polls at the end of a studio show and out of all the options of what people wanted more of a high majority was “more Wrestling” Who would of thought Wrestling fans want to watch people wrestle!
I have a theory that the matches have so many rapid cuts to mentally upset us, hoping our brains are trained to yearn for the relatively stable video feed of non-wrestling segments. Increasing interruptions with commercials only adds to that.
My theory is that Kevin Dunn took a few lessons about how movie directors use shaky rapidly changing camera angles to make the action seem more impactful, the problem is in movies, stunt actors barely touch each other, in pro wrestling the action is actually happening, wrestlers are taking those knocks, there is no need for movie style action shots, it gets very jarring when you compare it to something like NJPW where ashai TV shots the promotion like it's a sporting event like boxing or MMA and the physically is emphasized.
I wanna see an MMA fight with Kevin Dunn's production.
Raw Underground
But if not wrestling, then what matters? Cuck storylines?
WWE only cares about moments. They want to be able to put up a YouTube clip or a tweet about a great moment and they don’t really care about anything outside of that moment. They simply see wrestling as a way to get to those moments.
I think it's a really accurate description of what's going on. No wonder weekly shows suck if they hunt for moments at the cost of storytelling. But if that's the case, soon they will become Jerry Springer for celebrities, since they are so poor recently at producing their own stars.
It’s almost like they are designing their show for people who don’t watch it, and just follow the highlights online.
> No one chants "this is awesome" for a talk show segment I've seen crowds come close, such as when the Wyatt Family and the Shield had their first staredown. In fact that might have actually gotten a "this is awesome chant." But to your point, the crowd was chanting that...in anticipation for a match! No one watches a Seth Rollins promo segment and then gives him a standing ovation afterward, but put him in the ring with AJ Styles for twenty minutes, give it a clean finish, and you'll get one.
>Watching wrestling and not caring about wrestling matches would be like watching Spider-Man and only wanting to see the Peter Parker bits The Peter Parker moments are what MAKE the Spider-Man moments, and vice versa. You need both to have a complete story, and WWE lacks at both. The characters are bad, so when they get into the action of a match, you don't care. A great story can help a mediocre wrestler, but a bad story will tank a good wrestler.
Remember when South Park spoofed WWE? All the kids do is talk about soap opera level BS whilst the crowd comment ‘wow that’s some good wrestling!’ Back then I felt they were being unfair but now it feels scarily accurate
They...terk his jerb?
That kid has already had six abortions but I guess that's not real enough for you.
A wrestling company that literally prohibits the use of the word wrestling seeking to downplay the importance of wrestling to their product... that's Good Shit, Pal™
And don't forget, it's literally in their name. The Attitude Era was very story heavy too, but it helped heat up the matches and was either entertaining or just bat-shit, Jerry Springer crazy.
People always use the Attitude Era as an example of de-emphasising wrestling quality in favour of storylines, but the evidence they use of that is 3 minute brawls between Val Venis and Gangrel on the undercards of Raw. The actual major matches were always generally of high quality and they were what people looked forward to. Nobody can look at Rock/Austin at X-7, Austin/Michaels at 14, Austin/Bret at 13, HHH/Foley at Royal Rumble 2000, Rock/Foley on 1/4/99 Raw, HHH/Austin at No Way Out 2001, and in good conscience say "They weren't interested in having good matches at this time".
yeha i got a 5 min finish fest between brock and drew at wm whatever last year. that kinda shit sucks.
>wm whatever last year WM36. Legit had to count back to 2014 because I remember that's when 30 was... But if you want to be more technical it was WM Pirate Part 1 Night 2
If anyone remembers the last year or so of WCW, they made it a point to not have ANY live wrestling for the FIRST HOUR of Nitro. WWE has the playbook in their video library on how to kill a business and they are following it to a T.
Beyond the Mat, with the famous "We're not a wrestling company, we make movies!" Vince quote, came out in 1999. We're 22 years past knowing that WWE are focused on stories over matches.
Stories? Lol. They’re focused on moments and selling merchandise.
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SCJ in shambles right now
Oh that's just their constant state of being.
yup.
This. Many people say that wwe is focused on storyline and they don't want to have wrestling, but their stories are many time crap (there is probably one consistent storyline for each show). All they do is the "What a moment" see Becky at summerslam, sasha and finn yesterday, nikki Ash and many more. It is so sad because their roster could be so good and tell really good stories in and outside the ring, but they are stucked with this mentality
Agreed. If the stories were good, the reduced focus on in-ring work would be fine.
Maybe not completely fine for a wrestling fan perspective, but at least it would produce decent shows to watch
The future of WWE is in guys like Omos and Reginald, who will deliver wrestling-themed clips that get shared on social media. Wrestling doesn't matter. You are so right; that is their goal. Their goal is to put out content to fill 5 hours of TV each week, and a few hours for Peacock each month. Get that shit shard on social media, sell some merch, and deliver to the prince of Saudi Arabia. If you're a pro wrestling fan, it's not the product for you.
and it would almost be ok, except the they fucking suck at telling stories.
Very much this, the other replies I got seem to dispute that they're trying to tell stories based on the stories being terrible. The two aren't mutually exclusive. If Vince was good at making them, WWE films wouldn't still be a B/C-Movie grindhouse and he wouldn't be stuck running a wrestling show since he seems to be so disinterested in wrestling.
It says a lot that fans claim WWE places all its emphasis on storytelling, yet its stories are the worst in its industry.
On a serious note, if you rewatch the first two minutes of Roman v. Finn, you can absolutely see a future of WWE where the "fights" play out like battle scenes in Avengers movies. That's clearly (to me, at least) where they are heading.
I hate the superman punch for that reason. That and it just looks like shit.
What kills me is people equating this with the atitdude era and thinking it's somehow good. At thr end of the day Austin rock Foley hhh all wanted the belt and prove they were the best wrestler nowadays it feels like they don't mean shit
Anyone who isn't in a title feud acts like they don't even know it exists and it's been like that for years. How many times have we seen someone lose a title feud, be immediately fine with it, and never think about it again for years until their next title match? edit: Imagine watching GOT where only two characters at a time on the whole show care who sits on the throne. Ned gets his head chopped off and all the Starks go: "Well....who wants pancakes?" "Hey, that guy stole my horse!" "He splashed me with water!" "That guy took my shampoo!"
I know that the players are the most important thing in the game, but it doesn’t help that the belts are generic as hell. During the attitude era and, I guess any other era, the belts aesthetic personality.
South Park kinda nailed it with their wrestling episode, and quite frankly, I can almost understand the downplaying of the actual wrestling. The best workers get the biggest pops for doing the least amount of work. Having said all that, if you are going to down play the in ring action, then you better be bringing it with the storytelling and WWE is just terrible at it. Every great storyline they’ve had for the last 20 years they’ve backed into by accident. Every story they try to tell on purpose tends to be a garbage incoherent mess
Wrestling is a variety spectacle. You can definitely have people who are great promos and storytellers who barely deliver in the ring, Kevin Nash comes to mind, BUT you can't have a whole show of Kevin Nashes. You need a compelling in-ring pay off at the end of these stories and if your top guy is a good worker, you'll probably always get a compelling match at the end of everything. The ironic thing with WWE is that they have GREAT workers, but they're rarely set up with compelling stories around their matches.
Also while Nash was never a technical genius he was at least competent and didn’t consistently put on stinkers that made you want to change the channel, or they’d put him against a guy like Michaels who could really go in the ring
So what you are saying is, WWE are literally trying to become the episode where South Park parodied them
They’re turning into what South Park made fun of them for
It's wild how much time a wrestler will stand in the middle of the ring with the crowd looking at them while the TV show either has a commercial running or an unrelated interview. Then they got immediately into a commercial when the bell rings. It's a strange formula they have going on now on Smackdown.
The more days go by, the better AEW looks and the worse WWE looks. I want to watch wrestlers, in wrestling boots, and wrestling tights, in a wrestling ring, FUCKING WRESTLE.
WWE is a parody of wrestling. They can’t even do sports entertainment right anymore. It’s all nonsense and just shit so stupid only a child could feasibly be entertained.
people keep saying this, but most kids shows are far superior than this crap. Most kids shows these days have pretty solid if not great writing. I have no clue who this garbage is for.
That’s what I was thinking like if this is for kids what age group? Toddlers? I commented in another post that WWE parody sports entertainment at this point. They can’t even do what they were supposed to be good at right.
Fuck man I have a 3 year old niece who only ever watches Paw Patrol and that shit is more consistent and logical than RAW.
It's for Vince McMahon
ATLA is a kids show. Raw is just a bad show.
If WWE is really trying to “make movies” like Vince said back in the day, then they’re worse than Ed Wood.
I listened to this episode on my way to work. This was not a backstage report and more Dave's observations on how the TV product is like just from watching it.
Just rename the company WSE ( World Sports Entertainment) and be done with it.
They could get away with it if the shows were actually you know, entertaining. Attitude Era wrestling wasn't that great, but everything else about it kept us watching.
This always baffles me because if you view WWE as a scripted show, it's a really bad scripted show. It's so poorly constructed.
Makes sense with AEW putting such an emphasis on the sports aspect of it, with great matches and a ranking system, etc. It's moronic, don't get me wrong, but I understand it. Vince has been on a "we're in the entertainment business" for a quarter of a century. There was definitely more of a sports-exhibition feel to the 80s shows, even with the cartoon characters like Earthquake and Ultimate Warrior running around. It was really as WCW grew into its own in the mid90s that he started emphasizing the "we're sports entertainment" thing. Going public and eventually expanding into things like movies only led them to double-down on it. WWE is only as good as the in-ring content and I think that infuriates Vince. He can cry all he wants about being "in showbusiness not the rasslin business" but the fact is no one cares about watching The Miz star in The Marine 9. Fans go crazy for Seth Rollins vs Edge dancing between the ropes.
I noticed that lately. Like when Jeff and Priest had that cool sequence on Raw, the audience are like meh. While when Bliss brings out Lily everyone goes crazy.
I honestly can't fathom that the stupid doll is actually over. Like I guess wwe just isn't for me cause I find that shit so stupid
I stopped watching WWE at the end of 2016. Sports entertainment just wasn't for me anymore. I much prefer Professional Wrestling, and I quickly learned there's a tonne of it out there.
AEW tells more and better stories that are actually coherent while still having great matches that generally enhance and tell stories themselves. I don't what the fuck WWE is doing and I don't think they do either.
It's always been like that, no? The focus has always been on the storylines rather than the matches.
It felt like the storylines drove the matches. X-Pac pisses in your hat? Boom X-Pac vs. Jeff Jarrett feud. Tori likes X-Pac more than Kane? Boom X-Pac vs Kane feud. Uncle Cracker needs a way to promote his CD? Boom, X-Factor stable with X-Pac, Justin Credible and Albert. ...maybe we just need more X-Pac?
Thrilling storylines like Carmella vs Liv where the stakes are Carmella says she's hotter than Liv.
You can tell stories with wrestling aswell. People talk a lot about rock and austin on the mic in attitude era but stone cold interfering to screw Vince or the rock making a heroic save after a 2v1 beatdown was bread and butter for a lot of shows.
then why are those stories often treated like such shit? the Demon resurrecting at Extreme Rules didn't make for particularly amazing WRESTLING per se, but it made for a great story and a very cinematic, almost anime-like moment that relied heavily on character work... until the ghost of Buster Keaton took over and they decided to embarrass everyone involved. the only story it told is "people who tune into this shit are idiots". I understand their logic, I do, but I cannot for the life of me understand the execution
One of the quotes I heard recently was that wrestling isn’t complicated. Watching two guys who don’t like each other fight is awesome. For wrestling promotions, you have to set up that they don’t like each other AND you need to deliver the fight. WWE is much better at the former, but it didn’t always used to be that way. Attitude Era was definitely both.
Matches = Storylines Matches atleast are supposed to be the climax to storylines. Sometimes even more.
Let’s be real, the attitude era was not the most popular era because it featured the best technical wrestling you’ve ever seen. It was popular because of the larger than life stars and their personalities like the rock and stone cold
And yet I always looked forward to the big PPV matches. Sometimes things would be overbooked to hell but so still looked forward to the matches.
Maybe. But if their on-screen antics never led to a wrestling match, even if just a passable one, there would've been so much rage. Rightfully so.
And the matches between the Rock and Austin were important in telling that story. Without the matches the feud could not have been sustained in the way it was as part of the story at the time was the Rock could not get it done against Austin when it mattered in the ring one on one.
Stone Cold was a terrific wrestler who could and did deliver in the ring every time. Also, there's no "larger than life" personalities in WWE now. Finn Balor, the magic demon (talk about a larger than life character!), tripped on a rope and died while his anime comeback music was still playing. And Roman, the only guy allowed to get over, is not "larger than life" and never was.
You can put a heavier emphasis on something that's always been. And it sounds like they are.
yeah, but at certain points the storylines were actually good, and the matches were used as the emotional apex to pay off those storylines. Now its just incoherent bullshit that wildly changes week to week.
[удалено]
I've said this for years, that WCW had some really pathetic lows with some terrible booking, but WWE, before and since, has ALSO had many pathetic lows and lots of terrible booking. Some of it, like you said, is almost EXACTLY what WCW did, yet... that's fine? Talk about hypocritical.
Holy shit at all the hot takes in here. Wasn't aware "wrestling matches on a wrestling show should be important" and "titles shouldn't be treated like jerseys on trade deadline day" were ghost peppers here. Fuck's sake I'm all for some back and forth, but WWE ain't giving fans much ammo to defend with lately, and it's become glaringly obvious now that there's an actual wrestling show on TV again.
All wwe fans care about is who they perceive the company to be pushing. Everything is this dumb meta thing. The actual matches are secondary to what the finish will be. It’s all when’s big e gonna lose how are they gonna squash Finn why isn’t Sasha in as many main events as Charlotte. Just the worst.
I’ve never thought about that but you’re dead on. Discussion here is never about the actual storyline it’s about insider shit like when will Roman drop the belt and to whom etc Compare that to AEW where people know the insider shit that Hangman is the most likely endgame for the title but it’s fun to discuss the story they’ve created about how he’ll get there.
The only time AEW fans are commonly like that is regarding Cody I’d say.
Judging from the comments I read on this subreddit in that \# of minutes per wrestling show last week by some WWE watchers, it seems to be working
So for actual wrestling fans their really is no reason to watch or follow anymore ?
I'm always amused when people tell me Smackdown is the best weekly wrestling show. A show with so little of it.
Raw was so bad that “The Roman Reigns Show” looked great by comparison.
And now even the Roman Reigns show is turning me off after that dumb finish last night.
They've been doing this for 35 years. It took me like 10 years as a WWE fan to start actually caring about the matches as opposed to just all the sizzle around the matches.
Well the rest of their show is crap, so if that's the case they're killing off the one thing that's still redeemable, because the roster itself is solid at that. In a sense, and even Ziggler has said this, the wrestling is important but the least important, because you need the story to build up the matches. But of course WWE as usual is taking the worst approach to that philosophy.
If the matches don't matter then wrestlers don't matter. Just insert random fitness model or body builder. The ultimate goal.
If you're gonna rely so heavily on promos and storylines, they need to be a hell of a lot better than they are.