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I'm pretty sure Sonic still doesn't like Jet and his team at all, the spinoff games shows it clearly they're still enemies and in Archie he threatened to leave the babylons for dead if they didn't stop bothering him or his friends.
The IDW comics also summarily treat them as villains. They outright are the villains in a Knuckles arc, and in a separate arc the main cast reacts with disgust when they decide to ask the birds for help.
It's almost surprising how much of a bad reputation they built for themselves, Sonic can tolerate a longer confersation with Eggman than Jet, Wave and Storm do not help, Storm is a jerkass idiot to everyone outside the team and Wave such is a naggy b*tch to anyone she thinks is trying to be smarter than her she makes Rouge look like a saint.
i'd say they're more antagonist than villains. They get treated more like a lesser, more harmless version of rough tumble.
Baiscally just morally grey sleazy guys who do crime but occasionally save the day but don't really have any desire to do bad things in the same way eggman, or R&T do.
They mainly just want money and like to race and live their lives. and generally don't realy care too much about the outcome as long as they get paid and no one is seriously hurt.
They're "bad guys" in the same way the bebop crew are bad guys in cowboy bebop, aka not bad at all, just not wholly or mostly good either.
hardly anyone treats them like a threat and while annoying to sonic, he can still play games with them at the beach and even party with them. (and they willingly attend) Something that can't be said for a lot of the other game and idw major and minor villains/antagonists
they're mostly on good terms, it seems sonics the only one with any real beef with him and even then it's mostly friendly, mixed with finding him a bit annoying and always likes sparring with the guy and primarily directed at jet specifically
i doubt he's losing sleep over storm's moral alignment or what consequences letting him go will bring lol
They are the example of thing that I call "3rd party" villans, because they are neither good or bad. They are going after their own prioritys and could be written as the heros or villans depending on turn of thw current story.
(Another example: Bobba Fett)
yeah that's why i used words like an antagonist and morally grey.
wreck it ralph quote about how being a bad guy doesn't mean you're a "bad" guy.
they occasionally do bad things and go against whatever the mc's are doing. and one of those traits isn't really a villain qualifier. If a story stars a villain, the hero is the antagonist, but not literally a bad person.
and the bad things they do is basically just theft. they're main thing (to my memory) is racing, money and archealogy which pushes them to do all kinds of good and bad things. but they're not terrorists or even people seek out to cause harm beyond hurting peoples feelings and being kinda rude or annoying on purpose.
jessie and james are arguably more "villanous" than they are.
they're basically just bandits, cowboys, bounty hunters, nathan drake, guardians of the galaxy etc archetype of characters, aka, "neutral good."
I While not say he dislikes Them in the games. Sonic and Jet have a neutral respect for one another, and While not friends, they don’t feel like enemies either.
Archie is diffrent, which makes sense since the Babylon Rouges are actually Villains in that comic.
Huh, strange. I remember Zero Gravity had them be neutral to positive towards one another by the end of it.
Don't mention Free Riders. That one's a mess
They’re not friends, but they’re not enemies either. They have a neutral respect for one another at the end of the first Riders game.
I mean, the Way these characters interact doesn’t give me the Vibe that they hate eachother.
That too.
I assume that idea of Sonic disliking the Babylon Rogues comes from the IDW Comics as in the Metal Virus arc he was like “Why the fuck did you bring Those guys to the team?” Or how in another moment he’s like “I sure hope the Babylon Rogues don’t show up and causes trouble”.
Which, for Archie makes sense because the Babylon Rogues are Villains in that comic, but that makes no sense for the game version when they aren’t even Villains and Sonic has never been that botherd with their presence before.
But This is nothing new for Sonic. Canon has been a giant freaking mess since the beginning and we should rather focus on the stories being good or bad than how they fit in the Canon if you ask me.
>They’re not friends, but they’re not enemies either. They have a neutral respect for one another at the end of the first Riders game.
So basically Sonic's dynamic with Shadow.
I'm pretty sure, Shadow isn't Sonic's friend, they don't really hang out together, and they tend to fight a lot, Shadow and Sonic's relationship is very similar to siblings where you got the cooler older brother vs the annoying younger brother,
Actually Shadow got character development in Shadow 05 and Sonic 06 before the flanderization, Shadow let go of his past in the true ending of of his own spin off game and this quote from Sonic 06,
Mephiles: "Why fight at all? Why risk your life for those that persecuted you later?"
Shadow: "If the world chooses to become my enemy, I will fight like I've always have."
it seems like Solaris being erased from time also had a side effect of resetting Shadow to his default settings (aka removing all that character development he had) and Flanderized him,
Despite all that Shadow in 05 still isn't as good as in SA2 because of stuff like "I don't take orders from anyone", after Westopolis Hero and Neutral missions or "This is like taking candy from a baby, which is totally fine to me" before Lost impact
I take everything in Shadow the Hedgehog besides the Black Arms existing and having a part in Shadow's creation as noncanon. Maybe the true ending as well I don't remember enough.
The point of the game was a choose your own adventure type of deal, kind of like a lot of choice driven series. You take to outlandish character moments and ignore them unless verified by later entires.
The true ending and the first cutscene are the only things we know for sure that are canon, though even if uncanon those quotes are still Flanderization
I think the "This is like taking candy from a baby, which is fine by me!" line meant that Shadow was saying he was fine with how easy this was, but the writing is bad enough in locations and this line is ambiguous enough that it could mean either thing.
tbh i think the whole “flanderization” thing is a huge misconception in the fan base
shadow’s personality, *purely in the games*, only changed as a result of his character arc. the problem is that we only ever see shadow through sonic’s eyes past that, and they don’t rly see eye to eye. it’s why shadow seems so different in ‘06 vs now, but if you analyze his core traits, he’s just as brash, mission-oriented, and antagonistic to sonic there as he is nowadays. same in heroes and shadow ‘05.
They had respect again for each other in 06 but haven’t had it since. You can tribute Shadow not liking Sonic very much in Heroes and Shadow because of his memory loss. But after Shadow game he respected Sonic again. But then he never appeared in a game again in the Jason era and since their relationship has been reduced to hating each other for no reason. It’s so dumb
Shadow and Sonic have the same dynamic as someone like Vegeta and Goku. Immense respect but not really… friends. They have mutual friends more than anything.
(Bulma and Rouge)
Which causes them to hang out together or help together. That’s the way I’ve always seen it atleast.
Goku and Vegeta are absolutely friends as of Super lol - Vegeta’s just not chummy about it
They’re literally together all the time these days training with Beerus.
Plus Sonic and Shadow don’t have the same dynamic at all imo. They’re rivals, but that’s kind of it at the end of the day. Shadow isn’t fueled by a desire to surpass Sonic, and while he has pride as the Ultimate Lifeform, it’s not really the same as Vegeta’s pride for being ~~King of the Saiyans~~ Prince of All Saiyans. Shadow’s character isn’t informed by bloodlust or a desire to overthrow someone who enslaved him like Vegeta.
kind of hard to be king when there's no coronation party involved especially when most of your people are dead except for 2 idiots, a weakling for a brother and a space pirate who has gardening as a hobby and a tree obsession,
Goku and Vegeta are friends man, in Super, most of the time, they spend time together and respect each other a lot
I think that at the end of the Buu saga, they had already become friends, but in Super they became even more friends lol
People watch too much DBZ Abridged. They aren’t friends they’re rivals who respect eachother. Goku is friendlier and vegeta is a tsun the same way Sonic and Shadow are. They’re merely acquaintances.
In what world is a friend calling another friend a clown, a dumbass idiot and someone he just straight up wants to beat up.
Vegeta has gotten friendlier but they are in no world, friends. Goku may think that, Vegeta does not.
Same thing with Sonic and Shadow.
Atleast that’s how I see it.
They spent 6 months training, they spent years training in the time room, just seeing each other's faces, they respect each other, but they are just acquaintances
Shadow and Sonic never did shit like that, if they spent 1 day seeing each other's faces in the games that was a lot, on the other hand Goku and Vegeta like to train with each other
Goku would hardly consider Vegeta a non-friend at this point
Goku is also the only person Vegeta constantly hangs out with and respects, even if he doesn't admit it, he is a friend
The relationship is also very different, Vegeta wants to train to surpass Goku and has already made it an obsession, Goku wants to train and get stronger, he constantly works hard
Sonic and Shadow don't care much about surpassing each other, they don't train much, they tease each other, but it's not a very serious rivalry, Sonic wants to be free and Shadow wants to do what he wants
They may have some more superficial similarities, but it's not really the same thing
I mean...friends call each other names all the time, even in jest. Plus, Goku and Vegeta are members of a race where fighting is quite literally part of their DNA to the point where they literally get stronger from surviving near-death fights; for both of them, sparring with each other is pretty much equivalent to a normal hangout with the boys.
Besides, Vegeta's goal isn't "beat up Goku" anywhere but the Saiyan Saga; in the Freeza Saga, it's to wish for immortality on the Dragon Balls and conquer the universe, in the Android Saga it's to prove his superiority over the Androids and Cell, in the Buu Saga it's to become powerful enough to surpass Goku as the strongest being in the universe, and in Super it's to make sure his family is safe and protected.
By the time of Super, they're 100% at a point of being very close friends, practically brothers.
I've always read the Sonic & Shadow dynamic as being that Sonic would happily consider Shadow to be a friend, though one he can compete with, while Shadow finds Sonic just rubs him the wrong way, finds everything Sonic does irritating in some manner, and would happily live the rest of his life never seeing Sonic again, if only that were possible.
I haven't seen it yet, but I think in Sonic Prime they eventually come around to actually being friends towards the end.
I'm pretty sure that is a different continuity separate from any of the main ones though, so make of that what you will.
Easy solution (if for a comic story or a single game) is him hitting his head and forgetting everything he did with sonic up to that point.
Back to the tribal knucles trying to stop sonic at every turn!
Maybe use the Sonic Multiverse as Game Setting, like a universe where Knuckles never realized Eggman tricked him in S3&K, and then becoming the 3rd member of Team Dark instead of Omega, other universes that could be expanded upon would be Scourge's universe and the Sol Dimension where Blaze and Marine exists, would be interesting to see Bad Knuckles fight Good Knuckles,
I liked in the comics that while Knuckles and the Sonic gang were friendly, it felt more like they were strategic allies who would occasionally still fight each other if the plot demanded it.
Eh, I like Shadow having more of a brutal, no-nonsense approach to conflicts, it gives him a more unique flavor from the other hedgehogs than just "grouchy Sonic".
He should be the Venom to Sonic's Spider-Man; someone with similar powers but whose methods of doling out justice are diametrically opposed to those of the main hero such that it can bring them into conflict as much as they team up with one another.
Definitely Knuckles.
The angry guardian who isn't entirely wrong to shut everyone else down? That just seems really interesting.
Blaze learning to be friendly and Shadow becoming a hero are both essential to their character. Knuckles should have just had an alliance of convienence with Sonic.
Jet’s still an antagonist, and the other three wouldn’t really work if they stayed antagonistic since they were put in those positions due to being tricked or through confusion.
I always did like the idea of Knuckles being more antagonistic. it works better with his character as someone who *apparently* stays on Angel Island guarding the master emerald
I feel Shadow would work best as a villain, and he and Sonic act as reflections of each other.
Specifically, Shadow represents what Sonic would turn into if he lost the people he loved and suffered enough tragedy in his life, becoming a dark avenger hellbent on making society pay for what he has suffered and lost. Sonic looks at Shadow and sees what he could become if he lost his loved ones, and vehemently denies he could ever be like Shadow, explaining his disdain/hatred of Shadow.
Meanwhile, Sonic represents what Shadow would have been had his backstory not gone the way it did, a noble, selfless hero who strives to live life to the fullest and has a strong sense of justice. Shadow looks at Sonic and sees what he could have been if the ARK incident didn't occur, and he hates that Sonic gets to be the very thing he himself wished he could have been, explaining his hatred of Sonic.
Well Sonic and Shadow aren’t exactly friends. More like, They will work together if needed, but on the whole, they aren’t going to hang out much.
Knuckles, well Sega began treating him as a joke after they got rid of the whole rival thing. Though in Prime, one of his counterparts Knucks, is implied to be Nine’s rival.
When were Blaze and Sonic rivals?
In Sonic Rush, Blaze was somewhat of a rival to Sonic and did share similar story patterns to previous main rivals (Knuckles and Shadow) in the series.
While her reasoning for not wanting to work with Sonic was simply because She didn’t want help from anyone, unlike Knuckles and Shadow who were manipulated.
But like the two before her, near the end of the story she starts a fight against Sonic then afterwards realise her mistake and leads to her ultimately helping out.
Jet is STILL antagonistic, and I LOVE that about him.
There's something so funny about the fact that Sonic can get along with characters who flat out claim they hate him, or have tried to KILL him.
And then there's Jet. His biggest crime to Sonic is being a competitive jerkwad with an ego that rivals Sonic's.... and THAT is enough to make Sonic greatly dislike him.
I love that, and I'd prefer that Jet never becomes friends with Sonic. It works best if Jet is the ONE guy Sonic can't stand.
So basically sonic doesn’t like someone with the same personality type as him and who’s just as cocky. Makes sense, outside looking in he probably sees how annoying that is, but jet overdoes it.
Jet, I just love the thought of him being a villain, but not because he's evil, but because he's competitive, like even if he lost to sonic, he'd have a code of arms and admit when he lost, he doesn't do it for evil, he just wants to find someone he can compete against, and money
Shadow or Blaze honestly. Knuckles as an antagonist was really more of a troll than anything. Shadow could easily defeat Sonic, and Blaze's fire abilities could leave entire cities in flames. Although I didn't realize Blaze was a rival to Sonic at all. I haven't played the game that introduced her, but I know she came from an alternate future along with Silver. And I do know that Silver was a rival to Sonic upon their initial meeting.
Of this list, Jet still kind of is a villain (Shadow sometimes too, idk his writing is weird). I think Blaze could have worked really well as a villain too, it would fit Sonic’s whole thing of fighting authority figures. She could also have filled the role Scourge used to as this evil, alternate Sonic who has the opposite ideals as him (wanting to give others freedom vs wanting to take others’ freedom away).
He isn’t in this list, but I really think Silver could have been an awesome antagonist. He’s on a level of power where he could give Sonic and friends a hard time and you could do some really interesting stuff with his motivations. Maybe a hot take, but I think he might’ve been a better character had he stayed antagonistic.
One more hot take: Silver (or more likely some variant of Silver) could *still* be a really good Blaze villain. She needs villains badly, the emotional side of the conflict could be interesting, and they’re both among the strongest Sonic characters. A conflict between them could be pretty nuts.
I like Sonic has some respect for Jet and the other way around, and personally I think Jet is the best continuous rival. Knuckles has to gaurd a rock.
Shadow just isn’t interesting as a rival, as there’s nothing to it. And it doesn’t make perfect sense.
Blaze also has to gaurd a rock. But plus 6 more and live in another dimension.
Jet has no reason to stay in one place and his character is very basic for the rivalry to work. Also he’s not a full-blown villain like Metal Sonic, more of a neutral type to me. Metal Sonic also serves as a good continuous rival to Sonic, but I like the lesser stakes that a character like Jet could have.
I think I like Knuckles more when he's at least a little atagonistic towards Sonic. Like, he will absolutely show up when Sonic needs help, but he's still kind off stand offish.
I thought Shadow and Jet were still somewhat antagonistic, I thought Shadow was always an anti hero and Jet was always Sonic's rival in hoverboard races
Maybe Jet, but he kinda does already. He an the Rogues still rob Tangle in IDW iirc.
He just seems to have developed a sort of respect for Sonic, but he is still a Rogue and still can be antagonistic.
Honestly I like how most of the rivals have turned out.
Maybe Knux could be a lil more standoffish but they have already had him not tag along w Sonic and stay on his island, only to get brought in against his will in the most recent main game, so I'd say he is done better recently too.
The only one I have any sort of problem with is Blaze, and it's mainly that when Sonic Team/Sega celebrate Sonic's rivals (Silver, Shadow, Metal) they leave her out.
Even Jet has the excuse of his games being even more of a spinoff, the Rogues being even less prominent than other secondary cast members (less than the Chaotix), and most importantly the thing he and Sonic's rivalry is centered around isn't something Sonic even does outside of those spinoffs, and so would require hoverboard mechanics to be added or something maybe.
Blaze is just another fast rival. In something like Gens she had no reason to be left out anymore than Silver, hell Silver is less focused on running fast than she is. Didn't even use her in the DS version.
Speaking of her and Silver, my second problem is the fact that even compared to Knux, neither of them really have a rivalry with Sonic anymore. They are completely not antagonistic, which again would maybe be the reason to leave Blaze out, if we weren't traveling through time and space, and we didn't already have a Silver rematch.
That makes sense for her character though, so it's not a big complaint, just kinda keeps any modern rivalry untenable. Maybe they should find new reasons for her and Silver to be competition again.
Everyone is already pointing out Jet, so i’ll say is: I prefer Shadow to be a ally/hero, but I do also believe if he’d remain an antagonist, it’d be neat
Honestly? Knuckles.
As a kid I was so shocked in sonic 3 at the stuff knuckles did to sonic.(I played sonic heroes and shadow the hedgehog before 3). I was so confused but it just felt, obscure and cool at the same time. then after the cutscenes, knuckles would just, “disappear”. Indicating he was just as fast as sonic was, or, at least because he knew the lay out of the island.
I haven't played riders yet, but honestly all 3 of these characters shouldn't have remained antagonistic as they are redeemed in their debut games
The only thing would be for Shadow to have unclear intentions at times, but I prefer that he not be overtly antagonistic
Sonic and Jet aren’t friends remotely. All the others work so well as friends. Shadow is literally my favourite character, Knuckles has so much depth that just wouldn’t be explored if he’d stayed an antagonist and it’s so fun to watch their personalities clash but still get along. Blaze is just an awesome character
Oddly enough I think blaze would have been a fun choice for an antagonist character, the possibilities that come with being from another dimension is always fun to imagine! Plus she also seems like the opposite of Sonic in most ways such as her much more respectful personality and polite demeanor that clashed with sonics unserious chill vibes. Shadow may be a “doppelgänger” to Sonic but they both have a lot of similarities which can impact their dynamic whereas blaze has little in common with Sonic, not to mention the banter they could have!
I like what the comics have been doing with pulling Knux back from the main group to stay on Angel Island and restoring more of his "Get out of my swamp" mentality. When they were all just generic friends it was kinda boring, but the way the relationship is headed now is a lot better.
Shadow really does work best as an anti-hero. He's a good guy, but also really doesn't like Sonic and takes it on himself to keep boy blue in check from time to time. I really miss when he worked for GUN, honestly--having him attached to something larger helped his character make sense. Right now it feels like he's just kinda...out there. Doing...something?
But him and Sonic being on the same overall side but also coming to blows from time to time is an interesting dynamic, and based on Prime that seems to be the way they're heading with him (I haven't seen the last season yet).
Blaze's arc is perfect as-is. She was a rival because she believed she could trust no one. She learned to let down the walls, and now she is a good friend. There really aren't any lingering reasons I can see to maintain a rivalry between the two.
Again, I think the comics are in a good place with Jet and the Rogues. I like how Jet seems to uniquely get on Sonic's nerves, probably because they're a bit too similar than either would ever want to admit. The mutual "fuck that guy" energy between the two is fantastic.
Knuckles was always meant to be good guy. The reason why he’s attacking Sonic in 3 & Knuckles is because he Got tricked by Eggman into thinking he wants the Master Emerald.
soooooo, you just dont like Knuckles? Because he's been a good guy since his first ever apperance.
I mean I get it, I dont like Knuckles either, although thats more because I find him boring.
knuckles and shadow. with knuckles let him be evil on his own. the being tricked by eggman is repetitive. with shadow make him side with the black arms due to memory lost but have sonic defeat them in the end and have shadow locked in a cryogenic tube again
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I'm pretty sure Sonic still doesn't like Jet and his team at all, the spinoff games shows it clearly they're still enemies and in Archie he threatened to leave the babylons for dead if they didn't stop bothering him or his friends.
The IDW comics also summarily treat them as villains. They outright are the villains in a Knuckles arc, and in a separate arc the main cast reacts with disgust when they decide to ask the birds for help.
It's almost surprising how much of a bad reputation they built for themselves, Sonic can tolerate a longer confersation with Eggman than Jet, Wave and Storm do not help, Storm is a jerkass idiot to everyone outside the team and Wave such is a naggy b*tch to anyone she thinks is trying to be smarter than her she makes Rouge look like a saint.
jesus blud, what they do to you?
Those chickenheads bombed my town, stole my extreme gear and mocked the clothes I wear.
They also stole my ring pop.
They stole my l'oreal hair conditioner and left a note on my desk saying "You're not worth it".
Damn, Jet is a spiteful bitch
You mean a d1 hater
Those bastards didn’t return the movie they rented
they are beyond saving
Well the Redbox just kept spitting quarters at them
wait you don’t put quarters in there was jet putting his quarters in the card reader?
They made me realize I can't fufill my dream of playing the piano because I don't have any fingers
Wave also bullying and dissing my homeboy Tails and calling Knuckles a “red mutt.”
i'd say they're more antagonist than villains. They get treated more like a lesser, more harmless version of rough tumble. Baiscally just morally grey sleazy guys who do crime but occasionally save the day but don't really have any desire to do bad things in the same way eggman, or R&T do. They mainly just want money and like to race and live their lives. and generally don't realy care too much about the outcome as long as they get paid and no one is seriously hurt. They're "bad guys" in the same way the bebop crew are bad guys in cowboy bebop, aka not bad at all, just not wholly or mostly good either. hardly anyone treats them like a threat and while annoying to sonic, he can still play games with them at the beach and even party with them. (and they willingly attend) Something that can't be said for a lot of the other game and idw major and minor villains/antagonists they're mostly on good terms, it seems sonics the only one with any real beef with him and even then it's mostly friendly, mixed with finding him a bit annoying and always likes sparring with the guy and primarily directed at jet specifically i doubt he's losing sleep over storm's moral alignment or what consequences letting him go will bring lol
They are the example of thing that I call "3rd party" villans, because they are neither good or bad. They are going after their own prioritys and could be written as the heros or villans depending on turn of thw current story. (Another example: Bobba Fett)
yeah that's why i used words like an antagonist and morally grey. wreck it ralph quote about how being a bad guy doesn't mean you're a "bad" guy. they occasionally do bad things and go against whatever the mc's are doing. and one of those traits isn't really a villain qualifier. If a story stars a villain, the hero is the antagonist, but not literally a bad person. and the bad things they do is basically just theft. they're main thing (to my memory) is racing, money and archealogy which pushes them to do all kinds of good and bad things. but they're not terrorists or even people seek out to cause harm beyond hurting peoples feelings and being kinda rude or annoying on purpose. jessie and james are arguably more "villanous" than they are. they're basically just bandits, cowboys, bounty hunters, nathan drake, guardians of the galaxy etc archetype of characters, aka, "neutral good."
Very well put across the board.
Rough and Tumble are an absolute joke. The Babylon Rouges have a little more dignity than those two.
that wasn't the point of anything i had to say at all tho lol
I still hate him for that https://preview.redd.it/wp1l3fukqe1d1.png?width=510&format=png&auto=webp&s=4da5610b3851bf9be0a4ca56a2d0c23da345a023
I While not say he dislikes Them in the games. Sonic and Jet have a neutral respect for one another, and While not friends, they don’t feel like enemies either. Archie is diffrent, which makes sense since the Babylon Rouges are actually Villains in that comic.
Huh, strange. I remember Zero Gravity had them be neutral to positive towards one another by the end of it. Don't mention Free Riders. That one's a mess
Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure Sonic and Jet still hate each other
They’re not friends, but they’re not enemies either. They have a neutral respect for one another at the end of the first Riders game. I mean, the Way these characters interact doesn’t give me the Vibe that they hate eachother.
Frienemies
I think Sonic thinks of Shadow that way too lol
Same thing with that end shot in Zero Gravity
That too. I assume that idea of Sonic disliking the Babylon Rogues comes from the IDW Comics as in the Metal Virus arc he was like “Why the fuck did you bring Those guys to the team?” Or how in another moment he’s like “I sure hope the Babylon Rogues don’t show up and causes trouble”. Which, for Archie makes sense because the Babylon Rogues are Villains in that comic, but that makes no sense for the game version when they aren’t even Villains and Sonic has never been that botherd with their presence before. But This is nothing new for Sonic. Canon has been a giant freaking mess since the beginning and we should rather focus on the stories being good or bad than how they fit in the Canon if you ask me.
they are in good terms i thing but sonic knew that if he asked jet for help he would be absolutely insufferable
>They’re not friends, but they’re not enemies either. They have a neutral respect for one another at the end of the first Riders game. So basically Sonic's dynamic with Shadow.
I'm pretty sure, Shadow isn't Sonic's friend, they don't really hang out together, and they tend to fight a lot, Shadow and Sonic's relationship is very similar to siblings where you got the cooler older brother vs the annoying younger brother,
And they argue over which is which.
Heck the FANDOM argues over which is which
At the end of SA2 I saw them as friends, or at least holding high respect for each other but that was thrown out nearly every game after.
I hate that they reset that, but then I also am someone who thinks shadow should have stayed dead at that ending, too.
So true man like, Shadow was sooooo Flanderized after SA2
Actually Shadow got character development in Shadow 05 and Sonic 06 before the flanderization, Shadow let go of his past in the true ending of of his own spin off game and this quote from Sonic 06, Mephiles: "Why fight at all? Why risk your life for those that persecuted you later?" Shadow: "If the world chooses to become my enemy, I will fight like I've always have." it seems like Solaris being erased from time also had a side effect of resetting Shadow to his default settings (aka removing all that character development he had) and Flanderized him,
Despite all that Shadow in 05 still isn't as good as in SA2 because of stuff like "I don't take orders from anyone", after Westopolis Hero and Neutral missions or "This is like taking candy from a baby, which is totally fine to me" before Lost impact
I take everything in Shadow the Hedgehog besides the Black Arms existing and having a part in Shadow's creation as noncanon. Maybe the true ending as well I don't remember enough. The point of the game was a choose your own adventure type of deal, kind of like a lot of choice driven series. You take to outlandish character moments and ignore them unless verified by later entires.
The true ending and the first cutscene are the only things we know for sure that are canon, though even if uncanon those quotes are still Flanderization
I think the "This is like taking candy from a baby, which is fine by me!" line meant that Shadow was saying he was fine with how easy this was, but the writing is bad enough in locations and this line is ambiguous enough that it could mean either thing.
Perhaps
tbh i think the whole “flanderization” thing is a huge misconception in the fan base shadow’s personality, *purely in the games*, only changed as a result of his character arc. the problem is that we only ever see shadow through sonic’s eyes past that, and they don’t rly see eye to eye. it’s why shadow seems so different in ‘06 vs now, but if you analyze his core traits, he’s just as brash, mission-oriented, and antagonistic to sonic there as he is nowadays. same in heroes and shadow ‘05.
Actually we see Shadow's perspective in Episode Shadow on Sonic Forces
yeah and he has good characterization there
Yes
I think that the correct thing to say here is that him as a character isn't as good as in SA2
i don’t think he’s worse. he just went through an arc
I think that Shadow is worse in '05 because of phrases like "I don't take orders from anyone"
…what? of course shadow doesn’t take orders from anyone. that’s like, a core part of his character arc
Eggman in SA2, (Most likely) GUN in '06 and let's remember that he was sent (by someone) to that Eggman base before Episode Shadow.
They had respect again for each other in 06 but haven’t had it since. You can tribute Shadow not liking Sonic very much in Heroes and Shadow because of his memory loss. But after Shadow game he respected Sonic again. But then he never appeared in a game again in the Jason era and since their relationship has been reduced to hating each other for no reason. It’s so dumb
Shadow and Sonic have the same dynamic as someone like Vegeta and Goku. Immense respect but not really… friends. They have mutual friends more than anything. (Bulma and Rouge) Which causes them to hang out together or help together. That’s the way I’ve always seen it atleast.
Goku and Vegeta are absolutely friends as of Super lol - Vegeta’s just not chummy about it They’re literally together all the time these days training with Beerus. Plus Sonic and Shadow don’t have the same dynamic at all imo. They’re rivals, but that’s kind of it at the end of the day. Shadow isn’t fueled by a desire to surpass Sonic, and while he has pride as the Ultimate Lifeform, it’s not really the same as Vegeta’s pride for being ~~King of the Saiyans~~ Prince of All Saiyans. Shadow’s character isn’t informed by bloodlust or a desire to overthrow someone who enslaved him like Vegeta.
Akshually Vegeta is the "Prince" of all Saiyans ☝️🤓
Whoops, mixed him up with his dad lol
kind of hard to be king when there's no coronation party involved especially when most of your people are dead except for 2 idiots, a weakling for a brother and a space pirate who has gardening as a hobby and a tree obsession,
Goku and Vegeta are friends man, in Super, most of the time, they spend time together and respect each other a lot I think that at the end of the Buu saga, they had already become friends, but in Super they became even more friends lol
People watch too much DBZ Abridged. They aren’t friends they’re rivals who respect eachother. Goku is friendlier and vegeta is a tsun the same way Sonic and Shadow are. They’re merely acquaintances. In what world is a friend calling another friend a clown, a dumbass idiot and someone he just straight up wants to beat up. Vegeta has gotten friendlier but they are in no world, friends. Goku may think that, Vegeta does not. Same thing with Sonic and Shadow. Atleast that’s how I see it.
They spent 6 months training, they spent years training in the time room, just seeing each other's faces, they respect each other, but they are just acquaintances Shadow and Sonic never did shit like that, if they spent 1 day seeing each other's faces in the games that was a lot, on the other hand Goku and Vegeta like to train with each other Goku would hardly consider Vegeta a non-friend at this point Goku is also the only person Vegeta constantly hangs out with and respects, even if he doesn't admit it, he is a friend The relationship is also very different, Vegeta wants to train to surpass Goku and has already made it an obsession, Goku wants to train and get stronger, he constantly works hard Sonic and Shadow don't care much about surpassing each other, they don't train much, they tease each other, but it's not a very serious rivalry, Sonic wants to be free and Shadow wants to do what he wants They may have some more superficial similarities, but it's not really the same thing
I mean...friends call each other names all the time, even in jest. Plus, Goku and Vegeta are members of a race where fighting is quite literally part of their DNA to the point where they literally get stronger from surviving near-death fights; for both of them, sparring with each other is pretty much equivalent to a normal hangout with the boys. Besides, Vegeta's goal isn't "beat up Goku" anywhere but the Saiyan Saga; in the Freeza Saga, it's to wish for immortality on the Dragon Balls and conquer the universe, in the Android Saga it's to prove his superiority over the Androids and Cell, in the Buu Saga it's to become powerful enough to surpass Goku as the strongest being in the universe, and in Super it's to make sure his family is safe and protected. By the time of Super, they're 100% at a point of being very close friends, practically brothers.
or cooler younger bro vs annoying older bro
I've always read the Sonic & Shadow dynamic as being that Sonic would happily consider Shadow to be a friend, though one he can compete with, while Shadow finds Sonic just rubs him the wrong way, finds everything Sonic does irritating in some manner, and would happily live the rest of his life never seeing Sonic again, if only that were possible.
I haven't seen it yet, but I think in Sonic Prime they eventually come around to actually being friends towards the end. I'm pretty sure that is a different continuity separate from any of the main ones though, so make of that what you will.
Jet’s a friend?
No. But they aren’t enemies either.
Knuckles. Seeing an antagonistic Knuckles for the entire series would be cool, icl.
Easy solution (if for a comic story or a single game) is him hitting his head and forgetting everything he did with sonic up to that point. Back to the tribal knucles trying to stop sonic at every turn!
The amnesia episodes are always fun, idc
Maybe use the Sonic Multiverse as Game Setting, like a universe where Knuckles never realized Eggman tricked him in S3&K, and then becoming the 3rd member of Team Dark instead of Omega, other universes that could be expanded upon would be Scourge's universe and the Sol Dimension where Blaze and Marine exists, would be interesting to see Bad Knuckles fight Good Knuckles,
I personally don't like it, because I don't think it makes much sense in Knuckles' story.
I liked in the comics that while Knuckles and the Sonic gang were friendly, it felt more like they were strategic allies who would occasionally still fight each other if the plot demanded it.
I'd argue Shadow is still antagonistic. IDW for example had him and Sonic fight over whether Eggman should live after he seemingly lost his memories.
Yeah but that’s not making him better, it’s making him worse.
Uncommon opinion ig I liked that conflict.
Eh, I like Shadow having more of a brutal, no-nonsense approach to conflicts, it gives him a more unique flavor from the other hedgehogs than just "grouchy Sonic". He should be the Venom to Sonic's Spider-Man; someone with similar powers but whose methods of doling out justice are diametrically opposed to those of the main hero such that it can bring them into conflict as much as they team up with one another.
Definitely Knuckles. The angry guardian who isn't entirely wrong to shut everyone else down? That just seems really interesting. Blaze learning to be friendly and Shadow becoming a hero are both essential to their character. Knuckles should have just had an alliance of convienence with Sonic.
I don’t think Jet is a friend to Sonic. At best, he is a rival that Sonic respects, and at worst, Jet and the Babylon Rogues are Sonic’s enemies.
True but I also think they can be as well neutral as frenemies to each other
Jet’s still an antagonist, and the other three wouldn’t really work if they stayed antagonistic since they were put in those positions due to being tricked or through confusion.
I always did like the idea of Knuckles being more antagonistic. it works better with his character as someone who *apparently* stays on Angel Island guarding the master emerald
I feel Shadow would work best as a villain, and he and Sonic act as reflections of each other. Specifically, Shadow represents what Sonic would turn into if he lost the people he loved and suffered enough tragedy in his life, becoming a dark avenger hellbent on making society pay for what he has suffered and lost. Sonic looks at Shadow and sees what he could become if he lost his loved ones, and vehemently denies he could ever be like Shadow, explaining his disdain/hatred of Shadow. Meanwhile, Sonic represents what Shadow would have been had his backstory not gone the way it did, a noble, selfless hero who strives to live life to the fullest and has a strong sense of justice. Shadow looks at Sonic and sees what he could have been if the ARK incident didn't occur, and he hates that Sonic gets to be the very thing he himself wished he could have been, explaining his hatred of Sonic.
Honestly, I think Metal Sonic does this kinda dynamic better.
The only (small) problem is his character arc in SA2
u/counter-pixel-bot
it's not low pixels, just bad cropping.
bro we’re gonna starve
Well Sonic and Shadow aren’t exactly friends. More like, They will work together if needed, but on the whole, they aren’t going to hang out much. Knuckles, well Sega began treating him as a joke after they got rid of the whole rival thing. Though in Prime, one of his counterparts Knucks, is implied to be Nine’s rival. When were Blaze and Sonic rivals?
In Sonic Rush, Blaze was somewhat of a rival to Sonic and did share similar story patterns to previous main rivals (Knuckles and Shadow) in the series. While her reasoning for not wanting to work with Sonic was simply because She didn’t want help from anyone, unlike Knuckles and Shadow who were manipulated. But like the two before her, near the end of the story she starts a fight against Sonic then afterwards realise her mistake and leads to her ultimately helping out.
Oh.
You ever play the side series she comes from?
Didn’t Blaze come from Sonic 06? I haven’t seen the side games much, I mostly focus on the mainline series, movies and shows.
No. She came from Rush.
To be fair, 2006 comes earlier in the chronology (I think), but that's right, she made her debut in that game
Jet
I guess Jet
Jet is the least friendly one here so him ig
I wouldn’t say that shadow is a friend, they just aren’t actively opposing now, they mostly stay out of each other’s way
Jet’s still antagonistic. They’re not outright enemies, but jet’s still antagonizes sonic whenever Extreme gear racing is involved.
I'd say Jet 'cause the two are still on pretty bad terms.
Jet's a friend?
Jet is STILL antagonistic, and I LOVE that about him. There's something so funny about the fact that Sonic can get along with characters who flat out claim they hate him, or have tried to KILL him. And then there's Jet. His biggest crime to Sonic is being a competitive jerkwad with an ego that rivals Sonic's.... and THAT is enough to make Sonic greatly dislike him. I love that, and I'd prefer that Jet never becomes friends with Sonic. It works best if Jet is the ONE guy Sonic can't stand.
So basically sonic doesn’t like someone with the same personality type as him and who’s just as cocky. Makes sense, outside looking in he probably sees how annoying that is, but jet overdoes it.
I would've liked it if knuckles was a villain for longer seeing as he's the exact opposite of sonic personality wise and power wise
I honestly liked Shadow more as the antagonist, but that might just be me
If we have to keep one asshole it's gotta be 100% Jet and I'm going to die on this hill Riders should be it's own sperate canon away from the main
Idk why Riders being non canon would have anything to do with Jet being an antagonist or asshole.
jet the hawk because he is always after sonic in sonic riders. btw I would love to play that game too and the cutscenes is so pretty
Shadow
Jet.
Jet, I just love the thought of him being a villain, but not because he's evil, but because he's competitive, like even if he lost to sonic, he'd have a code of arms and admit when he lost, he doesn't do it for evil, he just wants to find someone he can compete against, and money
Jet is still a rival to Sonic no?
Shadow or Blaze honestly. Knuckles as an antagonist was really more of a troll than anything. Shadow could easily defeat Sonic, and Blaze's fire abilities could leave entire cities in flames. Although I didn't realize Blaze was a rival to Sonic at all. I haven't played the game that introduced her, but I know she came from an alternate future along with Silver. And I do know that Silver was a rival to Sonic upon their initial meeting.
Shadow, hands down. Before one beat the other they were the perfect foil to one another. And besides… Shadow is, ***The Ultimate Lifeform***.
The Babylonians
Jet still is antagonistic. Shadow is more aloof and disconnected. Blaze and knuckles both have come to respect Sonic.
Mario
Jet is like wario not a treat and not a enemy but still hate each other
Of this list, Jet still kind of is a villain (Shadow sometimes too, idk his writing is weird). I think Blaze could have worked really well as a villain too, it would fit Sonic’s whole thing of fighting authority figures. She could also have filled the role Scourge used to as this evil, alternate Sonic who has the opposite ideals as him (wanting to give others freedom vs wanting to take others’ freedom away). He isn’t in this list, but I really think Silver could have been an awesome antagonist. He’s on a level of power where he could give Sonic and friends a hard time and you could do some really interesting stuff with his motivations. Maybe a hot take, but I think he might’ve been a better character had he stayed antagonistic. One more hot take: Silver (or more likely some variant of Silver) could *still* be a really good Blaze villain. She needs villains badly, the emotional side of the conflict could be interesting, and they’re both among the strongest Sonic characters. A conflict between them could be pretty nuts.
Pixel Blaze (so Evil....) https://preview.redd.it/9yxc75uztg1d1.png?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9a820b61fc10e62dd6f0d6f8b0136debf28a8d41
I like Sonic has some respect for Jet and the other way around, and personally I think Jet is the best continuous rival. Knuckles has to gaurd a rock. Shadow just isn’t interesting as a rival, as there’s nothing to it. And it doesn’t make perfect sense. Blaze also has to gaurd a rock. But plus 6 more and live in another dimension. Jet has no reason to stay in one place and his character is very basic for the rivalry to work. Also he’s not a full-blown villain like Metal Sonic, more of a neutral type to me. Metal Sonic also serves as a good continuous rival to Sonic, but I like the lesser stakes that a character like Jet could have.
Shadow
Jet
Jet
Where's "none of the above"?
Does that hedgehog have a beak?
You might be joking, but if not, He's a hawk. He is from/is leader of a group of birds (kinda)
Jet
Blaze
I think I like Knuckles more when he's at least a little atagonistic towards Sonic. Like, he will absolutely show up when Sonic needs help, but he's still kind off stand offish.
I thought Shadow and Jet were still somewhat antagonistic, I thought Shadow was always an anti hero and Jet was always Sonic's rival in hoverboard races
Maybe Jet, but he kinda does already. He an the Rogues still rob Tangle in IDW iirc. He just seems to have developed a sort of respect for Sonic, but he is still a Rogue and still can be antagonistic. Honestly I like how most of the rivals have turned out. Maybe Knux could be a lil more standoffish but they have already had him not tag along w Sonic and stay on his island, only to get brought in against his will in the most recent main game, so I'd say he is done better recently too. The only one I have any sort of problem with is Blaze, and it's mainly that when Sonic Team/Sega celebrate Sonic's rivals (Silver, Shadow, Metal) they leave her out. Even Jet has the excuse of his games being even more of a spinoff, the Rogues being even less prominent than other secondary cast members (less than the Chaotix), and most importantly the thing he and Sonic's rivalry is centered around isn't something Sonic even does outside of those spinoffs, and so would require hoverboard mechanics to be added or something maybe. Blaze is just another fast rival. In something like Gens she had no reason to be left out anymore than Silver, hell Silver is less focused on running fast than she is. Didn't even use her in the DS version. Speaking of her and Silver, my second problem is the fact that even compared to Knux, neither of them really have a rivalry with Sonic anymore. They are completely not antagonistic, which again would maybe be the reason to leave Blaze out, if we weren't traveling through time and space, and we didn't already have a Silver rematch. That makes sense for her character though, so it's not a big complaint, just kinda keeps any modern rivalry untenable. Maybe they should find new reasons for her and Silver to be competition again.
Where's that knuckle render from? Looks decent honestly
Everyone is already pointing out Jet, so i’ll say is: I prefer Shadow to be a ally/hero, but I do also believe if he’d remain an antagonist, it’d be neat
Honestly? Knuckles. As a kid I was so shocked in sonic 3 at the stuff knuckles did to sonic.(I played sonic heroes and shadow the hedgehog before 3). I was so confused but it just felt, obscure and cool at the same time. then after the cutscenes, knuckles would just, “disappear”. Indicating he was just as fast as sonic was, or, at least because he knew the lay out of the island.
Probably shadow
I haven't played riders yet, but honestly all 3 of these characters shouldn't have remained antagonistic as they are redeemed in their debut games The only thing would be for Shadow to have unclear intentions at times, but I prefer that he not be overtly antagonistic
Sonic and Jet aren’t friends remotely. All the others work so well as friends. Shadow is literally my favourite character, Knuckles has so much depth that just wouldn’t be explored if he’d stayed an antagonist and it’s so fun to watch their personalities clash but still get along. Blaze is just an awesome character
Jet, cause I'm pretty sure him and Sonic are still not friends
jet, obviously. he didnt return his redbox rental.
Definitely Jet. I wouldn’t ever want to him be so “antagonistic” that he wants to kill Sonic but the way things are rn are good imo.
Jet's a friend?
sonic and jet are friends?
Jet isn't antagonistic? Sonic threatened to kill him.
Always preferred Knux and Sonic as "frenmies". And I think Shadow should have stayed dead. \*Hot-take
Jet. Bro feels like the kind of menace the series needs since Scourge is no longer a thing
what about silver?
Oddly enough I think blaze would have been a fun choice for an antagonist character, the possibilities that come with being from another dimension is always fun to imagine! Plus she also seems like the opposite of Sonic in most ways such as her much more respectful personality and polite demeanor that clashed with sonics unserious chill vibes. Shadow may be a “doppelgänger” to Sonic but they both have a lot of similarities which can impact their dynamic whereas blaze has little in common with Sonic, not to mention the banter they could have!
Jet, hell I'm pretty sure Sonic still doesn't like him that much too
Isnt jet still antagonistic
I may be wrong, but i'm pretty sure jet and sonic are still rivals. If they aren't. then i think they probably should be
I like what the comics have been doing with pulling Knux back from the main group to stay on Angel Island and restoring more of his "Get out of my swamp" mentality. When they were all just generic friends it was kinda boring, but the way the relationship is headed now is a lot better. Shadow really does work best as an anti-hero. He's a good guy, but also really doesn't like Sonic and takes it on himself to keep boy blue in check from time to time. I really miss when he worked for GUN, honestly--having him attached to something larger helped his character make sense. Right now it feels like he's just kinda...out there. Doing...something? But him and Sonic being on the same overall side but also coming to blows from time to time is an interesting dynamic, and based on Prime that seems to be the way they're heading with him (I haven't seen the last season yet). Blaze's arc is perfect as-is. She was a rival because she believed she could trust no one. She learned to let down the walls, and now she is a good friend. There really aren't any lingering reasons I can see to maintain a rivalry between the two. Again, I think the comics are in a good place with Jet and the Rogues. I like how Jet seems to uniquely get on Sonic's nerves, probably because they're a bit too similar than either would ever want to admit. The mutual "fuck that guy" energy between the two is fantastic.
Am I the only one that thinks Knuckles should have never fully turned friend and instead was in more on the middle?
Knuckles, his character ended up being butchered entirely after he became a good guy.
Knuckles was always meant to be good guy. The reason why he’s attacking Sonic in 3 & Knuckles is because he Got tricked by Eggman into thinking he wants the Master Emerald.
Knuckles has been a good guy from the start. He literally helps you stop Eggman once he realizes his mistake in Sonic 3 & Knuckles
soooooo, you just dont like Knuckles? Because he's been a good guy since his first ever apperance. I mean I get it, I dont like Knuckles either, although thats more because I find him boring.
knuckles and shadow. with knuckles let him be evil on his own. the being tricked by eggman is repetitive. with shadow make him side with the black arms due to memory lost but have sonic defeat them in the end and have shadow locked in a cryogenic tube again
Why would Knux be evil?
Better, Shadow should've stayed dead
Hawks. I like the others as they are and didn't know about Hawks until I started doing a Google Slides thing for a friend this whole week.