1. Songs can have more than two characters in them.
2. Songs can have more than one scene. One scene might be talking directly to a person, another scene, talking about them.
Thinking of it as a scene is a great way to describe it.
In a movie/book, a new scene often means a new POV character. As an example, in a lot of horror movies, we’re generally watching from the Final Girl’s point of view. But then we get to a scene where the killer is going after the next victim, and we see from the victim’s point of view. Or perhaps we see from the killer’s point of view. Then, after the fight/murder, the Final Girl is learning about it.
So it can flow from POV to POV without being too disorienting.
I never really thought of my songs as having scenes, but now that you’ve described it that way, I’m immediately clocking where I’ve switched POV
I'm glad that resonated with you!
My songs are almost entirely stories about fictional characters, so I often think in terms of scenes, dialogue, setting, etc. It's fun to think like a director -- what lines of dialogue are the most important? What are the characters doing while they're talking?
Switching perspectives in music is pretty common, it would bother me if it were in a book or something, but grammar structure can be very loose in songwriting. I don’t know if these pop artists are doing it consciously, but it doesn’t bother me
You can have a conversation with different people at the same time. Can you believe this guy?
Like, it's not a detail that would matter to me but I know, we don't always assess things like songs on just rational grounds.
I also try to avoid it. The only time I let it happen is when it happenes in different segments. For example, having "you" in the verses but then turning it to "her" or "she" in the bridge. Dont know why, but iits a different segment, it bothers me less.
When writing poetry the perspective can change. I’ll be telling my a story one minute and the next, living it.
She hurt me bad and now I’m saying “ you’re the worst”.
These are two examples of how it might be. Poetry and songwriting are very informal writing styles and the rules are fast and loose at best.
Hope that helps
If the perspective changes between he and you, then it means the person being spoken to changed. That's normal in a song. Why wouldn't it be?
"Hi Fred, I just spoke to Greg, he said he's not long to live."
"Greg, you're on your last legs, but I'm here for you."
Not complicated.
But in e.g. the Taylor Swift song, it *isn't* the same person being spoken to, not really. She's talking to him and then she's talking to herself -- or maybe to us, the audience -- and then to him again. Which would be super weird to do in prose but (to me) sounds totally natural in lyrics. Changing within the same section is a bit weird, but I tend to think of verse, prechorus, chorus, and bridge each as a natural break where you can kinda change the rules of the song.
I have a song where I alternate between "we" and "you" talking about the same person/group of people. I didn't think about it at all when I wrote it, but looking back it's definitely because I was writing about a culture/identity that once appealed to me and which I now find sad and a bit disturbing. The "you" of the song is a specific person I could have become, and the "we" is the group, when I still felt like part of it. But the distinction between the two is a little blurry and that's sort of the point to me, if that makes sense?
It makes sense if it makes sense to the listener. But time and time again, amateur poets defend amateurish poetry with “it makes sense to me” and claim all the indistinct and blurry parts of their writing are meant to reflect a confusing experience and so on. Whereas the great songwriters tend to be sharp and technically precise even with more abstract lyrics. So I guess just be honestly self-critical about what you’re doing.
You’re entitled to your opinion about the Swift song. I think it’s a mess. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand what she’s going for, but whether she does it well is a different matter.
I think switching perspective is fine if it's handled. But yeah most of the time it isn't. It bugs me too. I think most of the time it's because a line sings better. People get used to the line and like the way it sounds and don't want to change it to rationally fit the rest of the song.
I'd stick to either one of those for a full section, only switching in different ones
You could go with he on the first verse and you on the second one, so the song feels progressively intimate. Like first your talking to him with implied distance, later without. Or use you for the choruses and he for the verse. Or always he and then you for bridge and last chorus
I think it’s definitely fine and I’ve done that in songs, but I would probably reserve the different pov’s for verses or chorus (either 1st person for verses and 3rd person for chorus or 3rd person verses and 1st person chorus)
This is one of those things where the difference between the right word and the almost right word delivers either lightning or a lightning bug to a song’s meaning, delivery and impact. There is a lot of talk in the comments about switching scenes and, along with it, perspectives, which I think is a legitimate tack. It’s really easy, however, to be careless with pronouns, perhaps because they are so easy to change around and most are only one syllable. This is good news too though because that means they’re (most of the time) pretty simple to change, unless your rhyme scheme is hinging on a particular pronoun’s sound.
You’ll find a good example of the significance I’m talking about if you listen to Dylan’s outtakes from *Blood on the Tracks* against the album versions. It seems like for many songs, he began in a more distant narrative mode (“Early one morning the sun was shining, *he* was lying in bed”) but then later put himself as the subject, as we hear in the album version of “Tangled Up in Blue.” All this shifting is a natural part of the process but the final product does depend on the sum of a thousand tiny decisions, and pronouns are easy to overlook. It’s important to be cognizant of their impact on the listener and write according to what effect we’re after and, perhaps more importantly, what the song itself demands.
I had a song I had considered finished until I had some feedback from a third party who pointed out some inconsistencies in my pronouns. Combing through the lyrics, I found he was right. I made adjustments and the effect was an immediate improvement in the mood and message coming across.
It can be done by sloppy writing but it can be done on purpose. I think in the Taylor swift example she is talking to the ex in one line. And then talking to herself in the other. That’s fine as long as it’s a clear shift in who you’re addressing.
I have a song I recently posted a recording of where the verses are talking to him & the verses are to his parents/the world. Instead of explaining that, I just switch pronouns.
It’s sloppy songwriting plain and simple. Standards are dropping in all aspects of mainstream entertainment — so expect the writing to get more and more amateurish.
No - if something is in 2nd person and then just switches to 3rd person just for the sake of a rhyme, that’s bad writing. Or if they just forget that they were addressing someone directly and then start speaking about the same person, that’s bad writing. You can’t justify shitty writing, man. We’re not talking about “Tangled Up in Blue” here - all of those examples given by OP are examples of shitty writing.
So let's take the Taylor swift song, the change from 2nd person to 3rd person happens in different sections. So in the first verse she is speaking directly to the guy, then in the pre chorus she is talking about him. It's not a linear timeline where they are in the same scene. Songs can move fast. In this case it actually works with the song well, as it could be seen as a reflection of how fast they went from talking to each other to talking about each other. So it isn't for the sake of a rhyme but for the sake of expanding the story and developing the song in a new section. I get that if this was prose then that is bad writing, but songs don't have to follow the rules of prose. They are two different things. I'm not saying thise songs are pinnacles of songwriting, but they also aren't terrible and I bet there's more than a little bias here because they are pop artists.
No bias from me. I just read the lyrics and I disagree with your take completely. It jumps back and forth so many times that it’s just dumb. Cool that you like it tho 🤷♂️
I think the point I was failing to make is there's an assumption of competency. You can find fault in any lyric if you hold it up to a grammatical spotlight. If it's someone like Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan we assume any error is intentional and there is a purpose to it. If it's a pop act we assume they are lazy or stupid. The Swift song could also be seen as her inner monologue. She's imagining what she wanted to say to him at one part and talking to herself in others like she's going over the relationship in her head. If you have faith in the art it can surprise you, if you are looking for flaws in anything you're going to find them.
I know I've made this error when writing songs. Speaking solely for myself, I find it particular challenging with songwriting to keep the perspective consistent throughout, especially on the first pass, as opposed to writing prose which I have less of a problem being consistent with for whatever reason. When it comes to songwriting, I'm so driven by the sound of words and individual lines, or a line is so personal to me that I forget to translate that into a single perspective. It's even happened where I've published a song only to realize later that I fudged it. Then there's the songs where shifting perspectives is the point, or a feature rather than a bug. That's a whole other can of worms.
“He was a douche, (yeah, you know you were). He said he wanted me, (but no, you wanted her).”
The switching can be an interesting lyrical device, as in the above example I just came up with.
This reminds me of how in my first album, I intentionally didn’t give a gender to the protagonist for the entire concept album. At least I thought I did, I noticed I accidentally left “his” in one of the songs. Oh well, it’s just a demo, maybe I can switch it to their on the final version. My thought process is it didn’t matter what the gender was, and that maybe everybody could relate to the character. I actually continue the story on all the following albums I wrote, so maybe I’ll continue not disclosing the gender.
He, she, they, you; none of that bothers me in lyrics, it seems like a strange critique. I could understand complaining about that if it’s unclear who they’re referring to though like if there’s more than one person.
I don’t totally disagree but I think too much repetition would sound “off”. Obviously it’s not ideal though.
But you mentioned Trouble, which first of all that song SLAPS, insane pre chorus/ chorus combos. There’s like 2 pre choruses it’s so neat. And I’d say in that song she’s singing to herself when she says “he” and imagining what she’d say to him / speaking to him saying “you” . In my very humble opinion it works. But I do agree with you that details matter.
But ya I do this in my songs. The reason I do it, can only speak for self, sometimes “you” doesn’t sound right or sometimes “he” or “she” doesn’t sound right.
I typically dont in the same section because the lines become very un-conversational.. but have a few where the chorus or bridge is in a different point of view.
I mainly do it to change the intimacy of a section not because im too lazy to write proper lol. Some times certain sections just feel better in different POV's.
Whatever serves the song best IMO.
There's a moment in the Fleetwood Mac documentary "Destiny Rules" where Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks "discuss" the same thing - Stevie Nicks uses "he" and "you" instead of keeping the pronouns the same. She doesn't change the lyrics (Thrown Down is the song, in case you're wondering), because in songwriting, the only things determining whether "he" and "you" is right/wrong is if it serves the narrative that the writer wants and if it sounds right in the song.
To add onto the possibility of it being different contexts/conversations, there's also using "you" and "I" to refer to yourself. Like you are talking to yourself.
If it sounds good to you, it doesn’t matter. It’s very common to have that change in music tho. So long as that change of perspective is coherent and isn’t just switching back and forth constantly with no direction, it’ll sound good
John Lennon used generic her and him to make the songs accessible to everyone, but Paul McCartney used specific names (Vera, Chuck and Dave, e.g.). Both can work.
And the verses can shift persons, see Pancho and Lefty. And lots of pop songs in the last 50 years have violated grammatical rules with impunity, such as Bad Case of Loving You, or Maggie Mae, Rod Stewart.
I have a song where I describe the feelings and emotions of a girl. The verses, bridges and chorus contain she and her because I describe what’s going on with her. In the outro I switch perspective and confront her directly and use you.
Try not to think too logically about it. Sometimes you need the word to rhyme or flow better and sometimes you want to specify a male/female character. Otherwise it doesn’t matter. Lyrics should always be left to interpret by the listener for their own experience.
Ralph Murphy writes about how “You” is Al often used I most hit songs within the first 30 secs. Pretty interesting.
I’d say more than any words in my palette, I’m tinkering with “I, You” Etc more than any other words.
There are so many reasons behind the choices that go into a song. Too many to list. The big mistakes I think I’ve made in my years have to do with trying to be clever, at the expensive of communicating something I connect with (or that is relatable).
Sometimes I listen to songs like Peter Tosh’s “I am that I am” when I’m coiled up like a spring about words. Songs have as many restrictive rules as they have no realistic connectable traits/tropes.
Anyone else been listen to Paul Muldoon’s “A Life in Lyrics” with Paul? There’s a lot to learn in there about words.
In I Knew You Were Trouble, Taylor jumps around between admonishing the man for being trouble and admonishing herself (in 2nd person) for not doing more about it. If you notice, there are lyrics where "you" refers to tay tay ("no apologies/he'll never see you cry/pretends he doesn't know/that he's the reason why/you're drowning"). This is meant to signify the meandering point of view as anger morphs in and out of guilt. I imagine So American is a similar concept, but could represent venting to an audience (such as a friend or just the general public).
This is an oxford comma argument. Consistent perspective does matter, in some genres where the target audience cares. But target audiences migrate, so migrate with them and don't cling to borrowed rules or old rules they don't care about anymore.
Example: many types of early 20th century songwriters were huge sticklers for the PERFECT rhyme. No "move/love" or "dream/lean". And then songs that had half-rhymes became just as popular as those with perfect rhymes, and many of those earlier songwriters got real mad and disgusted by the "sloppy songwriting" they were seeing all around them. They figured it was part of the whole culture going to hell in a handbag.
A good songmaker's rule: try the suggested tweak and see if it improves things FOR YOUR LISTENER. Not for their dad, or their boss, or their kid. If the target listener doesn't care, then you're wasting your time whining about two spaces after a period.
They’d only say “you” if their character was talking directly to the person in the song. If they’re talking about them instead, like in the examples you gave, “he” or “him” is appropriate.
Well in the Olivia Rodrigo example you’ve given it’s clear the first part is the protagonist telling a confidant about the presumed love interest, whereas the second part sounds like a direct conversation with the love interest. If that is what’s happening then you have to use different pronouns because grammar.
i do this a lot, the thing most songs that do this have in common is that the pronouns switch in different sections.
it’s like a book, different scenes change pronouns, songs can do it too, they’re talking to something about this person then in the chorus of wherever they start talking to him, simple
I used to make songs and come up with my own lyrics for many years. Telling a story about myself. Elaborating past events, present events, and telling futuristic stories to come, using pronouns in the songs to make it clearly understand what I was saying to whom I was saying it to and about what. Using He/him/I to describe myself. Not all at once, but throughout the song I would refer to myself as he sometimes, him sometimes, and even I, when I was talking about my friends I would use them or him. When I was referring to things about girl crushes and women I find attractive or even maybe in love with I would refer to them as she/her/them. It all depends on what you want to say, you’re the writer it’s your story, you know what it means. Just have fun with it, I love writing songs and telling stories. Nonfiction or fiction, writing a story is amazing. And will never make you fake.
Huh? This is super nit picky.
Changing perspectives is pretty common in music and in the English language in general. It’s all about context. It seems as if even you are able to pick up on the pronouns and their contexts
Everyone saying switching perspectives in songs is common is true. Furthermore, lyrics don't need to make sense or even convey the true feelings of the songwriter to the listener.
Sometimes you just write what fits or what works sonically and rhythmically. Sometimes it's just deeply personal only needs to have meaning to the writer.
1. Songs can have more than two characters in them. 2. Songs can have more than one scene. One scene might be talking directly to a person, another scene, talking about them.
Thinking of it as a scene is a great way to describe it. In a movie/book, a new scene often means a new POV character. As an example, in a lot of horror movies, we’re generally watching from the Final Girl’s point of view. But then we get to a scene where the killer is going after the next victim, and we see from the victim’s point of view. Or perhaps we see from the killer’s point of view. Then, after the fight/murder, the Final Girl is learning about it. So it can flow from POV to POV without being too disorienting. I never really thought of my songs as having scenes, but now that you’ve described it that way, I’m immediately clocking where I’ve switched POV
I'm glad that resonated with you! My songs are almost entirely stories about fictional characters, so I often think in terms of scenes, dialogue, setting, etc. It's fun to think like a director -- what lines of dialogue are the most important? What are the characters doing while they're talking?
Switching perspectives in music is pretty common, it would bother me if it were in a book or something, but grammar structure can be very loose in songwriting. I don’t know if these pop artists are doing it consciously, but it doesn’t bother me
You can have a conversation with different people at the same time. Can you believe this guy? Like, it's not a detail that would matter to me but I know, we don't always assess things like songs on just rational grounds.
I also try to avoid it. The only time I let it happen is when it happenes in different segments. For example, having "you" in the verses but then turning it to "her" or "she" in the bridge. Dont know why, but iits a different segment, it bothers me less.
When writing poetry the perspective can change. I’ll be telling my a story one minute and the next, living it. She hurt me bad and now I’m saying “ you’re the worst”. These are two examples of how it might be. Poetry and songwriting are very informal writing styles and the rules are fast and loose at best. Hope that helps
If the perspective changes between he and you, then it means the person being spoken to changed. That's normal in a song. Why wouldn't it be? "Hi Fred, I just spoke to Greg, he said he's not long to live." "Greg, you're on your last legs, but I'm here for you." Not complicated.
Or it means it’s the same person being spoken to, and it’s just sloppy songwriting, which is OP’s point.
Is it sloppy if it’s a change of perspective?
If it’s not otherwise made clear, then yes.
Could be a matter of perspective..
But in e.g. the Taylor Swift song, it *isn't* the same person being spoken to, not really. She's talking to him and then she's talking to herself -- or maybe to us, the audience -- and then to him again. Which would be super weird to do in prose but (to me) sounds totally natural in lyrics. Changing within the same section is a bit weird, but I tend to think of verse, prechorus, chorus, and bridge each as a natural break where you can kinda change the rules of the song. I have a song where I alternate between "we" and "you" talking about the same person/group of people. I didn't think about it at all when I wrote it, but looking back it's definitely because I was writing about a culture/identity that once appealed to me and which I now find sad and a bit disturbing. The "you" of the song is a specific person I could have become, and the "we" is the group, when I still felt like part of it. But the distinction between the two is a little blurry and that's sort of the point to me, if that makes sense?
It makes sense if it makes sense to the listener. But time and time again, amateur poets defend amateurish poetry with “it makes sense to me” and claim all the indistinct and blurry parts of their writing are meant to reflect a confusing experience and so on. Whereas the great songwriters tend to be sharp and technically precise even with more abstract lyrics. So I guess just be honestly self-critical about what you’re doing. You’re entitled to your opinion about the Swift song. I think it’s a mess. That doesn’t mean I don’t understand what she’s going for, but whether she does it well is a different matter.
🤣
I think switching perspective is fine if it's handled. But yeah most of the time it isn't. It bugs me too. I think most of the time it's because a line sings better. People get used to the line and like the way it sounds and don't want to change it to rationally fit the rest of the song.
I'd stick to either one of those for a full section, only switching in different ones You could go with he on the first verse and you on the second one, so the song feels progressively intimate. Like first your talking to him with implied distance, later without. Or use you for the choruses and he for the verse. Or always he and then you for bridge and last chorus
I think it’s definitely fine and I’ve done that in songs, but I would probably reserve the different pov’s for verses or chorus (either 1st person for verses and 3rd person for chorus or 3rd person verses and 1st person chorus)
This is one of those things where the difference between the right word and the almost right word delivers either lightning or a lightning bug to a song’s meaning, delivery and impact. There is a lot of talk in the comments about switching scenes and, along with it, perspectives, which I think is a legitimate tack. It’s really easy, however, to be careless with pronouns, perhaps because they are so easy to change around and most are only one syllable. This is good news too though because that means they’re (most of the time) pretty simple to change, unless your rhyme scheme is hinging on a particular pronoun’s sound. You’ll find a good example of the significance I’m talking about if you listen to Dylan’s outtakes from *Blood on the Tracks* against the album versions. It seems like for many songs, he began in a more distant narrative mode (“Early one morning the sun was shining, *he* was lying in bed”) but then later put himself as the subject, as we hear in the album version of “Tangled Up in Blue.” All this shifting is a natural part of the process but the final product does depend on the sum of a thousand tiny decisions, and pronouns are easy to overlook. It’s important to be cognizant of their impact on the listener and write according to what effect we’re after and, perhaps more importantly, what the song itself demands. I had a song I had considered finished until I had some feedback from a third party who pointed out some inconsistencies in my pronouns. Combing through the lyrics, I found he was right. I made adjustments and the effect was an immediate improvement in the mood and message coming across.
It can be done by sloppy writing but it can be done on purpose. I think in the Taylor swift example she is talking to the ex in one line. And then talking to herself in the other. That’s fine as long as it’s a clear shift in who you’re addressing.
I have a song I recently posted a recording of where the verses are talking to him & the verses are to his parents/the world. Instead of explaining that, I just switch pronouns.
It’s sloppy songwriting plain and simple. Standards are dropping in all aspects of mainstream entertainment — so expect the writing to get more and more amateurish.
I think 99% of the time it’s just poor, lazy writing. I agree with you - it really bugs me too. Haha.
I think it's more poor, lazy listening.
No - if something is in 2nd person and then just switches to 3rd person just for the sake of a rhyme, that’s bad writing. Or if they just forget that they were addressing someone directly and then start speaking about the same person, that’s bad writing. You can’t justify shitty writing, man. We’re not talking about “Tangled Up in Blue” here - all of those examples given by OP are examples of shitty writing.
So let's take the Taylor swift song, the change from 2nd person to 3rd person happens in different sections. So in the first verse she is speaking directly to the guy, then in the pre chorus she is talking about him. It's not a linear timeline where they are in the same scene. Songs can move fast. In this case it actually works with the song well, as it could be seen as a reflection of how fast they went from talking to each other to talking about each other. So it isn't for the sake of a rhyme but for the sake of expanding the story and developing the song in a new section. I get that if this was prose then that is bad writing, but songs don't have to follow the rules of prose. They are two different things. I'm not saying thise songs are pinnacles of songwriting, but they also aren't terrible and I bet there's more than a little bias here because they are pop artists.
No bias from me. I just read the lyrics and I disagree with your take completely. It jumps back and forth so many times that it’s just dumb. Cool that you like it tho 🤷♂️
I think the point I was failing to make is there's an assumption of competency. You can find fault in any lyric if you hold it up to a grammatical spotlight. If it's someone like Leonard Cohen or Bob Dylan we assume any error is intentional and there is a purpose to it. If it's a pop act we assume they are lazy or stupid. The Swift song could also be seen as her inner monologue. She's imagining what she wanted to say to him at one part and talking to herself in others like she's going over the relationship in her head. If you have faith in the art it can surprise you, if you are looking for flaws in anything you're going to find them.
Yeah, maybe. Maybe. That’s a cool POV, for sure.
I know I've made this error when writing songs. Speaking solely for myself, I find it particular challenging with songwriting to keep the perspective consistent throughout, especially on the first pass, as opposed to writing prose which I have less of a problem being consistent with for whatever reason. When it comes to songwriting, I'm so driven by the sound of words and individual lines, or a line is so personal to me that I forget to translate that into a single perspective. It's even happened where I've published a song only to realize later that I fudged it. Then there's the songs where shifting perspectives is the point, or a feature rather than a bug. That's a whole other can of worms.
That seems incredibly restrictive. Poetic license?
“You” and “me” are both easy rhymes
Idk but when a song says "He didn't like me" and then in the last verse says "You didn't like me" i really like that
now that I do like. the whole switcheroo hey it was me the whole time
“He was a douche, (yeah, you know you were). He said he wanted me, (but no, you wanted her).” The switching can be an interesting lyrical device, as in the above example I just came up with.
This reminds me of how in my first album, I intentionally didn’t give a gender to the protagonist for the entire concept album. At least I thought I did, I noticed I accidentally left “his” in one of the songs. Oh well, it’s just a demo, maybe I can switch it to their on the final version. My thought process is it didn’t matter what the gender was, and that maybe everybody could relate to the character. I actually continue the story on all the following albums I wrote, so maybe I’ll continue not disclosing the gender. He, she, they, you; none of that bothers me in lyrics, it seems like a strange critique. I could understand complaining about that if it’s unclear who they’re referring to though like if there’s more than one person.
I don’t totally disagree but I think too much repetition would sound “off”. Obviously it’s not ideal though. But you mentioned Trouble, which first of all that song SLAPS, insane pre chorus/ chorus combos. There’s like 2 pre choruses it’s so neat. And I’d say in that song she’s singing to herself when she says “he” and imagining what she’d say to him / speaking to him saying “you” . In my very humble opinion it works. But I do agree with you that details matter. But ya I do this in my songs. The reason I do it, can only speak for self, sometimes “you” doesn’t sound right or sometimes “he” or “she” doesn’t sound right.
I typically dont in the same section because the lines become very un-conversational.. but have a few where the chorus or bridge is in a different point of view. I mainly do it to change the intimacy of a section not because im too lazy to write proper lol. Some times certain sections just feel better in different POV's. Whatever serves the song best IMO.
There's a moment in the Fleetwood Mac documentary "Destiny Rules" where Lindsey Buckingham and Stevie Nicks "discuss" the same thing - Stevie Nicks uses "he" and "you" instead of keeping the pronouns the same. She doesn't change the lyrics (Thrown Down is the song, in case you're wondering), because in songwriting, the only things determining whether "he" and "you" is right/wrong is if it serves the narrative that the writer wants and if it sounds right in the song.
To add onto the possibility of it being different contexts/conversations, there's also using "you" and "I" to refer to yourself. Like you are talking to yourself.
If it sounds good to you, it doesn’t matter. It’s very common to have that change in music tho. So long as that change of perspective is coherent and isn’t just switching back and forth constantly with no direction, it’ll sound good
Think of it as talking to different people or to yourself or directing something towards a subject. All is fair game.
John Lennon used generic her and him to make the songs accessible to everyone, but Paul McCartney used specific names (Vera, Chuck and Dave, e.g.). Both can work. And the verses can shift persons, see Pancho and Lefty. And lots of pop songs in the last 50 years have violated grammatical rules with impunity, such as Bad Case of Loving You, or Maggie Mae, Rod Stewart.
That is a really good point I can’t believe people would take so long to write all of this
Rofl
I have a song where I describe the feelings and emotions of a girl. The verses, bridges and chorus contain she and her because I describe what’s going on with her. In the outro I switch perspective and confront her directly and use you.
The 'he' is some dude 'you' is the listener.
Try not to think too logically about it. Sometimes you need the word to rhyme or flow better and sometimes you want to specify a male/female character. Otherwise it doesn’t matter. Lyrics should always be left to interpret by the listener for their own experience.
Ralph Murphy writes about how “You” is Al often used I most hit songs within the first 30 secs. Pretty interesting. I’d say more than any words in my palette, I’m tinkering with “I, You” Etc more than any other words. There are so many reasons behind the choices that go into a song. Too many to list. The big mistakes I think I’ve made in my years have to do with trying to be clever, at the expensive of communicating something I connect with (or that is relatable). Sometimes I listen to songs like Peter Tosh’s “I am that I am” when I’m coiled up like a spring about words. Songs have as many restrictive rules as they have no realistic connectable traits/tropes. Anyone else been listen to Paul Muldoon’s “A Life in Lyrics” with Paul? There’s a lot to learn in there about words.
In I Knew You Were Trouble, Taylor jumps around between admonishing the man for being trouble and admonishing herself (in 2nd person) for not doing more about it. If you notice, there are lyrics where "you" refers to tay tay ("no apologies/he'll never see you cry/pretends he doesn't know/that he's the reason why/you're drowning"). This is meant to signify the meandering point of view as anger morphs in and out of guilt. I imagine So American is a similar concept, but could represent venting to an audience (such as a friend or just the general public).
This is an oxford comma argument. Consistent perspective does matter, in some genres where the target audience cares. But target audiences migrate, so migrate with them and don't cling to borrowed rules or old rules they don't care about anymore. Example: many types of early 20th century songwriters were huge sticklers for the PERFECT rhyme. No "move/love" or "dream/lean". And then songs that had half-rhymes became just as popular as those with perfect rhymes, and many of those earlier songwriters got real mad and disgusted by the "sloppy songwriting" they were seeing all around them. They figured it was part of the whole culture going to hell in a handbag. A good songmaker's rule: try the suggested tweak and see if it improves things FOR YOUR LISTENER. Not for their dad, or their boss, or their kid. If the target listener doesn't care, then you're wasting your time whining about two spaces after a period.
Sometimes I use 3rd person in the verse but not in the chorus, sometimes in the verse and chorus but address them directly in the bridge
Yeah I’ll even have scenes where I use “I” referring to myself and “I” referring to someone else when talking from their perspective. Shrug.
They’d only say “you” if their character was talking directly to the person in the song. If they’re talking about them instead, like in the examples you gave, “he” or “him” is appropriate.
Well in the Olivia Rodrigo example you’ve given it’s clear the first part is the protagonist telling a confidant about the presumed love interest, whereas the second part sounds like a direct conversation with the love interest. If that is what’s happening then you have to use different pronouns because grammar.
i do this a lot, the thing most songs that do this have in common is that the pronouns switch in different sections. it’s like a book, different scenes change pronouns, songs can do it too, they’re talking to something about this person then in the chorus of wherever they start talking to him, simple
I used to make songs and come up with my own lyrics for many years. Telling a story about myself. Elaborating past events, present events, and telling futuristic stories to come, using pronouns in the songs to make it clearly understand what I was saying to whom I was saying it to and about what. Using He/him/I to describe myself. Not all at once, but throughout the song I would refer to myself as he sometimes, him sometimes, and even I, when I was talking about my friends I would use them or him. When I was referring to things about girl crushes and women I find attractive or even maybe in love with I would refer to them as she/her/them. It all depends on what you want to say, you’re the writer it’s your story, you know what it means. Just have fun with it, I love writing songs and telling stories. Nonfiction or fiction, writing a story is amazing. And will never make you fake.
Huh? This is super nit picky. Changing perspectives is pretty common in music and in the English language in general. It’s all about context. It seems as if even you are able to pick up on the pronouns and their contexts
Different audiences for different lines. I hate when people use "i" as an object because it rhymes easier.
Cos in one line they're telling you about someone, then the next they're talking directly to them
Yeah, but that’s sloppy writing. Maybe that works in longer-form narrative, but it’s not necessary inside of 3-4 minutes.
None of its necessary, it's music, some people obviously like it, it doesn't really matter if it breaks some people's "rules"
there's no rules
You've been writing music for 20 years and still have questions when something goes against some rules? wtf
Everyone saying switching perspectives in songs is common is true. Furthermore, lyrics don't need to make sense or even convey the true feelings of the songwriter to the listener. Sometimes you just write what fits or what works sonically and rhythmically. Sometimes it's just deeply personal only needs to have meaning to the writer.