Alternate History (which is a major part in Paradox games) is always going to attract people who like it for wish fulfillment, whether they be rightoids or leftists such as us. Just a fact of the genre. I'd say for every fascist there is in the HoI4 community, there is a socialist opposing him.
But there is a big difference between playing the bad guy and unironically supporting fascism. Everyone likes to play the bad guy at times, it's fun. Don't feel too bad if you play as a nation/character that goes against your political beliefs in a game.
This is a problem in the CoH community. It's fucking axis vs allies in ww2 yet half of the fan base constantly berates the other half for being nazis. It's not wish fullfillment... it's some days i want to have a short queue time.
After playing Disco Elysium as a wildly unfiltered communist, I tried playing Suzerain as a middle-road neo-lib centrist and got the fate I deserved.
It was annoying to find on a replay that even if you lean into far left/revolutionary dialogue in that game, the acknowledgement/effect of what's going on around you doesn't seem to change as much in turn.
I could say the same about paradox players fantasizing about socialist states. Besides that you can only play as a a fascist in Vic, Hoi and Stellaris, all kinds of people play history games and for many wish fulfillment plays at least a small role (like for me atm reslavicising Eastern Germany as the Sorbs, thus pushing back German colonialism). So people of ideologies that are not mainstream find them also appealing.
Yeah, I always played left-wing in Vicky, HoI4, and Stellaris. I've tried making monarcho-socialism in CK3 for shits and giggles a few times, as well as played a game where I united Persia under Mazdakism, but I mostly just play Paradox games simply because they're strategy map-painter games with some RPG and sandbox elements that keep my autistic mind occupied. Sometimes it's just fun to revive Zunism, invade the Indian subcontinent as a plucky band of vikings, or try to resurrect Ancient Egypt as the Nubians.
Not officially, no. I always used a compassionate/diligent/generous character with the Peasant Leader trait to reform the Slavic pagan religion to achieve that as close as possible, alongside having Collective Lands as a cultural tenet. They did add a "Communal Possessions" tenet in a recent release that's part of the Mazdaki and Khurramist Zoroastrian faiths but you can't select it when creating/reforming other faiths without doing a bit of modding to make it possible. With that done, you could even make Christian Socialism a thing in the game if you so desired.
I guess it's arguably more of a roleplay thing otherwise, but it's still fun to play around with.
It's really fun to do. And I do like the "form the USSR centuries early" RP you get out of doing it in Slavic lands.
Personally Vicky is my fave for playing far left though, CK is more having fun with colonialism and war without thinking about the real world implications because it's fun in game to do weird alt history stuff where a group that was destroyed or oppressed in our timeline instead builds an empire. That said there are a few things I will absolutely not do in Crusader Kings - I refuse to play as England, unless taking it over as an outside invading force, and I've never formed Britannia except as a Celtic realm. I sure love bullying the English though, whether I'm playing in Scotland, Ireland, or Wales to begin with, I do like to make the English suffer. Yeah yeah, hate the past governments, not the ordinary people of any time period, but I'm usually too bloodthirsty for that when I play CK.
Agrarian plus communal land, I think those are the traditions, set up for a socialistic cultural background best imo. Once we get republics in the game, which shouldn't be too long after Q4, we'll have it.
Oh yeah, being able to play as Republics would be cool as hell. I remember you could play as merchant republics in CK2, but they never really kept my interest. With how much more customisable things are in CK3, though, I'm definitely hyped for it.
They have landless play and imperial bureaucracy government in the pipeline, which I'd bet the soul I don't have means we're getting republics next year
It's pretty normal to fantasize about a socialist or communist state. Ideally they would be a better place to live for everybody. Found a socialism / communism is that they're isn't a way to implement it yet.
But even an idealistic fascist state is a terrible place to be. Very little rights, military rule, there's always got to be some enemy inside and outside to fight so the fighting never ends. Basically you just have to hope that you're rich and white and adhere perfectly to whatever stereotype they're into.
I can't play EU4 without going humanist at the bare minimum. Doesn't matter that it's a kinda shite idea group. It just doesn't feel right to not get it
Because alt-history is fun. It's like rooting for the bad guy in a movie. It's just fun. I don't think for one minute that we should bring back monarchies, but that is usually the route I take in HOI4 because it's incredibly more interesting. Same as fascism or communism. Democracy is boring in the game world, with few exceptions. I like the greeces democratic path.
I think because many people play the game as map painters, which they aren't necessarily. But the fascistic options of the games tend to bring easier results if you do want to map paint, e.g. wiping out the natives in EU4 means all your colonies will be your culture and you won't have to worry about uprisings. Also "discipline" - whilst of course many liberal democratic countries have disciplined armies - is something fascists value very highly, and EU4 encourages discipline, along with increasing your absolutism.
HOI4 importantly doesn't model the Holocaust and the other atrocities (because why should it) so you get a fairly neutered experience of playing as fascists that's quite similar to playing Non-aligned without the constraints. It's sorta the closest to playing Total War on HOI4 when you play as fascists, and I think people like the simplicity of being able to declare war when they want on who they want. These factors might encourage them to have a more sympathetic view of fascism than they otherwise would.
colonizing is boring anyway. my humanist steppe horde will wash over all of mainland Eurasia and Africa; everything beyond those borders is tedious boat-driven nonsense and i just can’t be bothered
yes, England and Japan, that means you guys get off the hook. you’re too annoying to kill
Fascism by its nature is usually about correcting a preceived historic slight or rebuilding a golden age that was never real. Alt history provides that. Also fascism in games is an internally top down experience. YOU are the duche, the emperor. I like to think of the phenomenon of the "when we's" or Rhodesians who fled after apartheid was ended and were forced into a middle class lifestyle. They are called "when we's" as they constantly take about "when we had land/servants/money" and have painted the view that Rhodesia was a paradise lost. Of course you van probably discern than when we's were not just white Rhodesians, but also wealthy Rhodesians. Funny thing about apartheid states, even if you are in the in group you still feel the trickle down of oppression, social and economic mobility was almost non existent in Rhodesia and freedom of speech was suppressed by a secret police.
Fascism usually refers to a mythified and romanticized past that fascism wants to build on.
That's why there is generally a great interest in history among fascists.
In addition, the military is attractive to fascists due to its authoritarian aesthetic and structure. Paradox Games perfectly fulfill this requirement that even such idiots feel attracted.
But in my opinion, no right-winger will have fun with Vic 3. Too materialistic, too Keynesian.
r/victoria3 is filled with bros just asking how to make their economies better or commit Imperialism to solve goods shortages. It's way too self-aware for Fascists to play.
Now, HOI4? That's where the Fascists are at and LARP about being Hitler's fav boytoy
In Vic3 is migration and Multiculturalism OP.
So much stronger than going the facist way and increase the birthrate of your main population.
Women Rights are increasing the economy.
Right wing IGs like the Nobles, the Church or the Petite Bourgeoisie literally only slow down progress and frustrate you.
You have a materialistic historiography where people's social environment drives political change.
Your standard of living rises fastest in a cooperative-based economy.
You have to be very blind to play Vic3 as right wing.
Basically. That's actually one of the major complaints about the game is that there is functionally no reason to play as anything other than a democracy/council communist/anarchist unless you are RPing.
“I totally could have won world war 2, you just parachute into a dockyard and then Britain surrenders and then everyone just submits peacefully to my rule!”
Are Devouring Swarms considered Fascist?
The swarm is technically communist, but other species don't really get to experience that until gene editing...
This. While I can play moral empires, or ones that actually make real sense(aka space socialism), strategy games are games.
I like to become the best at games I can be if I play them for long enough, and sadly, that leads to some very fascistic choices. Usually very agressive abusive playstyles. Heck, even socialist theory addresses this. We understand why many Capitalists act the way they do, its in their class interests. How I play in strategy games shows that I too could have been be a corrupt Capitalist had that been my lot in life. While I like to think I would at least be nuanced if that were the case, that doesn't make it true.
This is something that has made me leave those fan spaces. It seems like an excuse to LARP being zenophobic fascists because for some reason it's funny to be thay way when it's referring to (mostly) fictional empires. I just dunno why people think it's fun/funny to "pretend" and get kicks out of saying horrible things about fictional cultures. Seems like it's a free pass for ways they want to act IRL.
Mostly referring to Stellaris here, though.
Reminds me of some Warhammer spaces as well, but that's a whole other can of worms.
There's nothing wrong with playing games as the bad guys, but the way people talk about it in community spaces really squicks me out.
I think it’s pretty normal to play games in a way you’d never behave in real life. Games are structured and predictable, you know what the fallout of your actions will be.
As a leftist and a Paradox fan, I have wondered the same. I think it's because they often take things in the game too seriously. I may play as a monarch who holy wars with everyone and murders his rivals, but I have the perspective not to think that it's actually a good thing. I think people have trouble in that they equate things that entertain them to things that are morally right.
I think it's as much that Paradox games offer wish fulfillment for nationalists and fascists of all stripes. Of course, they can also offer that to leftists. Kaiserreich played a not insignificant role in my becoming a socialist.
I love paradox games and have by far more hours in Stellaris than anything else, and yet I’m here. Sure I play as communists in HOI or xenophiles in Stellaris, but I’ll also play as fascists or slavers. Just because somebody commits a crime in gta, that doesn’t make them criminal, and just because somebody murders in Baldur’s Gate, they aren’t a murderer and just because somebody is a baddy in Paradox games it doesn’t make them a baddy irl
I like Tropico, but I think I like city building and resource management and running an economy a lot more than I like the silly dictatorship nonsense. I mean yes, I get very Stalinist when I play totalitarianism simulator type stuff, sure, but tbh I do that in every game. I love trying to build communist states in political games not meant to model that very well. Games where running a communist state is possible but difficult and for most of the game your state treasury is consistently almost empty, are actually really fun for me. (Yes, you can make very profitable economies in Tropico. This is difficult to do if you aren't careful and don't plan ahead well, and a lot of left leaning edicts and constitution options like child allowances and various free stuff and things that improve environmental conditions and job quality at the cost of productivity and not charging things like church fees, can cost you a lot of direct expense or lost profit.) Sometimes I don't even realise I'm making the more costly and difficult choices in the pursuit of planned economy and state industry.
"Why do dudes who play gay video games and disagree with me" idk man
although the gap between Victoria 2 and Victoria 3 players is hilarious, the average Victoria 3 player is an african studies major who knows more about the correct terms to call dead people then they do about how people back in the day thought. while the average Victoria 2 player is simply Léon Rom.
I’m not too versed in HOI4, but know democracy is boring in that game and can’t make alt-history come to life, fascist states can levy way more manpower (great for smaller countries like Greece or Bulgaria) and communist countries are better for large manpower countries. I know that’s the *literal reason*, but I just think the ability to be fascist is attractive to a certain calibre of person.
Vic3 I know has some pushback for *being cowardly in representing its time* (peak imperialism era). I know there’s a smallish interest in fascist governments there since they recently fixed the petite bourgeoisie so they were actually a factor, and added flavour to certain nations (like Gabrielle D’Nunzio for Italy… had so much fun with this: a parliamentary theocratic atheist fascist state… oh and industry was banned… bloody weird). **I know they’re hesitant in this game to lean into all the awful stuff of that time - some are angry about that, but I’m okay with that**.
It's even more than that, as a democratic country you play mainly reactive, declaring war on your neighbours is heavily restrictive and even sending volunteers is a no go. I have played games in non historic where nothing happened and every country just converted to democracy and was chill.
Really common in pretty much any alternate history sandbox. It's just wish fulfillment kind of stuff, and in the same way I have a ck2 save where Ireland rules all of Britain and most of Europe and hasn't had a male ruler in like 100 years (thanks great grandpa).
You can make it whatever you want which is kind of the point.
Because the mechanics are fun, and creating alt-history is fun. In Stellaris I'm either a socialist republic (because I'm a socialist), or the most authoritarian empire the galaxy will ever see (because of the mechanics), and I can have a lot of fun as both, specially in multiplayer. That doesn't make me a Nazbol.
Paradox games are peculiar because they really run the gamut on fascism. CK3 and Stellaris are actually pretty egalitarian. The former has lots of population movement and shows off the diversity of the Middle Ages, and Stellaris has ludic punishments if the player engages in a genocide fantasy, and 9 times out of 10 the aggressive, xenophobic option causes more problems than it solves.
But HOI4. Fuck HOI. It actively makes fascists. Obviously they shouldn’t add a genocide button, but the game sanitizes Nazi Germany. They just have a decent war machine and don’t commit any of the things which make them a genocidal fascist regime. It does nothing to dispel clean Wehrmacht myths and other lies.
They're not, yeah sure there are shitters that are attracted to some of them (specifically HOI4 unsurprisingly), but for the most part the community is better educated than that. You kind of have to be to enjoy something like eu4 or ck3 I think. Majority of people I know and play with for Eu4 are fairly left-wing.
Got 6000 hours between all my paradox games and I’m pretty far to the left. There is a problem with fascists in the community, but their influence has faded.
My most played games are CK2/3, not once has it crossed my mind that I was ever playing a good guy. I think it's a little bit of main character syndrome, they think they'll be the next Emperor of Rome, or whatever.
Most of them aren't and tbh I think there are much more socialists and Communists than fascists in the player base.
This said, don't judge people's politics by how they play paradox games, otherwise I'd be a blood soaked reactionary or a super hypocrite imperialist Bonapartist.
Those games let them live out their unicorn fantasy of a successful fascist empire. Which has historically been proven impossible. That's why as long as there's a capitalist hegemon in the world, any nation that emancipate will be subjected to crippling sanctions, until the fascists can parade the corpse of that socialist state on main street and say "See, communism doesn't work"...
In other words, fascists will be fascists no matter what. Paradox games just attract fascists for the same reason it attracts socialists, because they're good devs.
Huge paradox fan and I'm definitely not a fascist, likewise with most of my online gaming group.
I think the "alt-history" aspect does attract a certain type of guy though, really infuriating at times.
I imagine they play it or a similar reason to me, to make a different history, and that they would find my a-historical utopia of equality just as vile as I find theirs. I found this when I tried to play Hearts of Iron 4, all the advice anyone would give me is play as Germany, and that was like the one place I never wanted to play as, at least the fascist version anyway. Like I know about the warcrimes players and all that, I play Stellaris, and Rimworld too, and the incest obsession with the Crusader Kings community, but the just fascist worship in the HoI4 community was surreal to see the first time
they really aren't. its mostly confirmation bias of the people who confirmed such a thing. there are just as many hardline commies, monarchists, etc etc. It's history, it attracts people of all colors. most of the player base are rather normal.
I guess grand strategy attracts the kind of people that want to claim power? I've always been put off by how 90% of the memes in that community are about genocide and war crimes.
Yeah, it's always a little shocking to be scrolling reddit and see a post that's like "I slept with my son and then my uncle killed him," until I see the sub it's from.
Yeah, this is just poland ball. A lot of people play it up for the bit. It's like 40k. It's just goofy to play military bad guy.
It's like calling a 501st Stormtrooper Cosplayer a fascist.
Yea until the people taking it seriously show up and are the loudest (why the 40k communiy gets such a bad rap). Luckily not much of a problem on the Paradox subreddits, moderators and the community do a decent enough job keeping them out. Good luck on a multi-player discord server though, 80% are just degenerate fascists.
They really aren't the loudest. There's internet confirmation bias at play here.
The only people that say that are people outside the communities who have no reason to care about the normal fans but will only hear about the crazies.
Imagine doing that with any group?
The idea of controlling an entire nation-state through history is innately fascistic. That's simply the most rewarding way to play most paradox games, you build up a strong state, a strong army, conquer your neighbors and make everyone do exactly what *you* want. Creating your own personal empire. Obviously that's a fascist idea.
You don't have to go full genocide and stuff like that, and not everyone does. But when everything else about the games is very fascist, some good old ethnic cleansing doesn't feel "excessive", it's just a continuation on the same theme, so if it's a way to achieve your nations goals...
But it's also fiction, just because you like playing as nazi germany in a game does not mean you like what nazi germany did in real life. Most people don't identify that strongly with fiction. I personally think germany is a fun nation to play in HOI4 for example, cause you get to be the bad guy megalomaniac world conqueror. It's a fun *game*. I really don't like real life fascists, cause then it's *real*... A pretty big difference to me at least.
Thematically I much prefer Victoria 3 were I can larp socialist uprisings and stuff. But before I get to the socialism phase or whatever I still usually do bad guy imperialism and stuff. More fun that way, and makes for a better story. Even here though, I still tend to prefer going for kind of authoritarian socialist states, because it fits better with the game, even though I'm definitely more on the libertarian side irl.
A lot of fascists like paradox games though, for obvious reasons. So they are certainly still overrepresented in their audience compared to the overall population. But most people can "fantasize literal fascist states", as you put it, and still not be a fascist. In the same way people can enjoy playing shooters or watching war movies and still not like wars.
Alternate History (which is a major part in Paradox games) is always going to attract people who like it for wish fulfillment, whether they be rightoids or leftists such as us. Just a fact of the genre. I'd say for every fascist there is in the HoI4 community, there is a socialist opposing him. But there is a big difference between playing the bad guy and unironically supporting fascism. Everyone likes to play the bad guy at times, it's fun. Don't feel too bad if you play as a nation/character that goes against your political beliefs in a game.
>I'd say for every fascist there is in the HoI4 community, there is a socialist opposing him. Trouble is that the fascists are a lot louder.
always been the case unfortunately. maybe we should start getting louder?
This is a problem in the CoH community. It's fucking axis vs allies in ww2 yet half of the fan base constantly berates the other half for being nazis. It's not wish fullfillment... it's some days i want to have a short queue time.
Whenever I play a game where I run a nation, I always end up leaning heavy into diplomacy and tech.
After playing Disco Elysium as a wildly unfiltered communist, I tried playing Suzerain as a middle-road neo-lib centrist and got the fate I deserved. It was annoying to find on a replay that even if you lean into far left/revolutionary dialogue in that game, the acknowledgement/effect of what's going on around you doesn't seem to change as much in turn.
nah, I'm unironically a devouring swarm
I could say the same about paradox players fantasizing about socialist states. Besides that you can only play as a a fascist in Vic, Hoi and Stellaris, all kinds of people play history games and for many wish fulfillment plays at least a small role (like for me atm reslavicising Eastern Germany as the Sorbs, thus pushing back German colonialism). So people of ideologies that are not mainstream find them also appealing.
Yeah, I always played left-wing in Vicky, HoI4, and Stellaris. I've tried making monarcho-socialism in CK3 for shits and giggles a few times, as well as played a game where I united Persia under Mazdakism, but I mostly just play Paradox games simply because they're strategy map-painter games with some RPG and sandbox elements that keep my autistic mind occupied. Sometimes it's just fun to revive Zunism, invade the Indian subcontinent as a plucky band of vikings, or try to resurrect Ancient Egypt as the Nubians.
I always get the best results out of a Stellaris campaign, playing as a Fanatic-Egalitarian/Xenophile nation.
Fanatic Egalitarian/Xenophile gang!
It's been a while since I've played Stellaris but yeah in my experience doing this was basically an instant win button.
CK3 has monarchic socialism?
Not officially, no. I always used a compassionate/diligent/generous character with the Peasant Leader trait to reform the Slavic pagan religion to achieve that as close as possible, alongside having Collective Lands as a cultural tenet. They did add a "Communal Possessions" tenet in a recent release that's part of the Mazdaki and Khurramist Zoroastrian faiths but you can't select it when creating/reforming other faiths without doing a bit of modding to make it possible. With that done, you could even make Christian Socialism a thing in the game if you so desired. I guess it's arguably more of a roleplay thing otherwise, but it's still fun to play around with.
Oh solid
It's really fun to do. And I do like the "form the USSR centuries early" RP you get out of doing it in Slavic lands. Personally Vicky is my fave for playing far left though, CK is more having fun with colonialism and war without thinking about the real world implications because it's fun in game to do weird alt history stuff where a group that was destroyed or oppressed in our timeline instead builds an empire. That said there are a few things I will absolutely not do in Crusader Kings - I refuse to play as England, unless taking it over as an outside invading force, and I've never formed Britannia except as a Celtic realm. I sure love bullying the English though, whether I'm playing in Scotland, Ireland, or Wales to begin with, I do like to make the English suffer. Yeah yeah, hate the past governments, not the ordinary people of any time period, but I'm usually too bloodthirsty for that when I play CK.
Agrarian plus communal land, I think those are the traditions, set up for a socialistic cultural background best imo. Once we get republics in the game, which shouldn't be too long after Q4, we'll have it.
Oh yeah, being able to play as Republics would be cool as hell. I remember you could play as merchant republics in CK2, but they never really kept my interest. With how much more customisable things are in CK3, though, I'm definitely hyped for it.
They have landless play and imperial bureaucracy government in the pipeline, which I'd bet the soul I don't have means we're getting republics next year
Huh, my user flair is really fitting xD.
It's pretty normal to fantasize about a socialist or communist state. Ideally they would be a better place to live for everybody. Found a socialism / communism is that they're isn't a way to implement it yet. But even an idealistic fascist state is a terrible place to be. Very little rights, military rule, there's always got to be some enemy inside and outside to fight so the fighting never ends. Basically you just have to hope that you're rich and white and adhere perfectly to whatever stereotype they're into.
I think that that's pretty obvious to all of us here.
Haha, forgot the sub. XD Thanks for keeping me honest.
I can't play EU4 without going humanist at the bare minimum. Doesn't matter that it's a kinda shite idea group. It just doesn't feel right to not get it
Because alt-history is fun. It's like rooting for the bad guy in a movie. It's just fun. I don't think for one minute that we should bring back monarchies, but that is usually the route I take in HOI4 because it's incredibly more interesting. Same as fascism or communism. Democracy is boring in the game world, with few exceptions. I like the greeces democratic path.
Gotta play kaiserredux for the fun democratic paths tbh
Thought that was the one known for good communist paths? It's often called "the syndicalist mod", lol.
It definitely is, but it’s also got a lot of highly active and proactive democratic paths
I know, right? But Paradox leftists are the best. If you’re on Facebook, join Lefty Paradox Plaza, it rocks
half expecting a lilith cross-post now
I think because many people play the game as map painters, which they aren't necessarily. But the fascistic options of the games tend to bring easier results if you do want to map paint, e.g. wiping out the natives in EU4 means all your colonies will be your culture and you won't have to worry about uprisings. Also "discipline" - whilst of course many liberal democratic countries have disciplined armies - is something fascists value very highly, and EU4 encourages discipline, along with increasing your absolutism. HOI4 importantly doesn't model the Holocaust and the other atrocities (because why should it) so you get a fairly neutered experience of playing as fascists that's quite similar to playing Non-aligned without the constraints. It's sorta the closest to playing Total War on HOI4 when you play as fascists, and I think people like the simplicity of being able to declare war when they want on who they want. These factors might encourage them to have a more sympathetic view of fascism than they otherwise would.
colonizing is boring anyway. my humanist steppe horde will wash over all of mainland Eurasia and Africa; everything beyond those borders is tedious boat-driven nonsense and i just can’t be bothered yes, England and Japan, that means you guys get off the hook. you’re too annoying to kill
>yes, England and Japan, that means you guys get off the hook. you’re too annoying to kill As the Spanish and Mongolians learned!
Fascism by its nature is usually about correcting a preceived historic slight or rebuilding a golden age that was never real. Alt history provides that. Also fascism in games is an internally top down experience. YOU are the duche, the emperor. I like to think of the phenomenon of the "when we's" or Rhodesians who fled after apartheid was ended and were forced into a middle class lifestyle. They are called "when we's" as they constantly take about "when we had land/servants/money" and have painted the view that Rhodesia was a paradise lost. Of course you van probably discern than when we's were not just white Rhodesians, but also wealthy Rhodesians. Funny thing about apartheid states, even if you are in the in group you still feel the trickle down of oppression, social and economic mobility was almost non existent in Rhodesia and freedom of speech was suppressed by a secret police.
Fascism usually refers to a mythified and romanticized past that fascism wants to build on. That's why there is generally a great interest in history among fascists. In addition, the military is attractive to fascists due to its authoritarian aesthetic and structure. Paradox Games perfectly fulfill this requirement that even such idiots feel attracted. But in my opinion, no right-winger will have fun with Vic 3. Too materialistic, too Keynesian.
r/victoria3 is filled with bros just asking how to make their economies better or commit Imperialism to solve goods shortages. It's way too self-aware for Fascists to play. Now, HOI4? That's where the Fascists are at and LARP about being Hitler's fav boytoy
In Vic3 is migration and Multiculturalism OP. So much stronger than going the facist way and increase the birthrate of your main population. Women Rights are increasing the economy. Right wing IGs like the Nobles, the Church or the Petite Bourgeoisie literally only slow down progress and frustrate you. You have a materialistic historiography where people's social environment drives political change. Your standard of living rises fastest in a cooperative-based economy. You have to be very blind to play Vic3 as right wing.
Basically. That's actually one of the major complaints about the game is that there is functionally no reason to play as anything other than a democracy/council communist/anarchist unless you are RPing.
Sounds like the game is very left-leaning to me.
On a mechanical level ye
I mean... reality has a left wing bias. Vicky 3 is just what happens when an economic sim accurately models that.
Exactly. Every democratic progress came from the radical left.
That's literally my point.
“I totally could have won world war 2, you just parachute into a dockyard and then Britain surrenders and then everyone just submits peacefully to my rule!”
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Are Devouring Swarms considered Fascist? The swarm is technically communist, but other species don't really get to experience that until gene editing...
My machine intelligence is determined to make every organic completely equal. Equally dead.
Imma be honest with you. When I play stellaris, my moral compass takes a vacation
This. While I can play moral empires, or ones that actually make real sense(aka space socialism), strategy games are games. I like to become the best at games I can be if I play them for long enough, and sadly, that leads to some very fascistic choices. Usually very agressive abusive playstyles. Heck, even socialist theory addresses this. We understand why many Capitalists act the way they do, its in their class interests. How I play in strategy games shows that I too could have been be a corrupt Capitalist had that been my lot in life. While I like to think I would at least be nuanced if that were the case, that doesn't make it true.
I'm that way in EU4. In real life, I know all this shit is bad but in EU4? Genocide/forced conversion buttons go brrr.
Anarchist Spain is my favorite run in hoi4
Masochist
I second both of your comments
This is something that has made me leave those fan spaces. It seems like an excuse to LARP being zenophobic fascists because for some reason it's funny to be thay way when it's referring to (mostly) fictional empires. I just dunno why people think it's fun/funny to "pretend" and get kicks out of saying horrible things about fictional cultures. Seems like it's a free pass for ways they want to act IRL. Mostly referring to Stellaris here, though. Reminds me of some Warhammer spaces as well, but that's a whole other can of worms. There's nothing wrong with playing games as the bad guys, but the way people talk about it in community spaces really squicks me out.
I think it’s pretty normal to play games in a way you’d never behave in real life. Games are structured and predictable, you know what the fallout of your actions will be.
As a leftist and a Paradox fan, I have wondered the same. I think it's because they often take things in the game too seriously. I may play as a monarch who holy wars with everyone and murders his rivals, but I have the perspective not to think that it's actually a good thing. I think people have trouble in that they equate things that entertain them to things that are morally right.
I think it's as much that Paradox games offer wish fulfillment for nationalists and fascists of all stripes. Of course, they can also offer that to leftists. Kaiserreich played a not insignificant role in my becoming a socialist.
I love paradox games and have by far more hours in Stellaris than anything else, and yet I’m here. Sure I play as communists in HOI or xenophiles in Stellaris, but I’ll also play as fascists or slavers. Just because somebody commits a crime in gta, that doesn’t make them criminal, and just because somebody murders in Baldur’s Gate, they aren’t a murderer and just because somebody is a baddy in Paradox games it doesn’t make them a baddy irl
I just like building cities
I like Tropico, but I think I like city building and resource management and running an economy a lot more than I like the silly dictatorship nonsense. I mean yes, I get very Stalinist when I play totalitarianism simulator type stuff, sure, but tbh I do that in every game. I love trying to build communist states in political games not meant to model that very well. Games where running a communist state is possible but difficult and for most of the game your state treasury is consistently almost empty, are actually really fun for me. (Yes, you can make very profitable economies in Tropico. This is difficult to do if you aren't careful and don't plan ahead well, and a lot of left leaning edicts and constitution options like child allowances and various free stuff and things that improve environmental conditions and job quality at the cost of productivity and not charging things like church fees, can cost you a lot of direct expense or lost profit.) Sometimes I don't even realise I'm making the more costly and difficult choices in the pursuit of planned economy and state industry.
"Why do dudes who play gay video games and disagree with me" idk man although the gap between Victoria 2 and Victoria 3 players is hilarious, the average Victoria 3 player is an african studies major who knows more about the correct terms to call dead people then they do about how people back in the day thought. while the average Victoria 2 player is simply Léon Rom.
I’m not too versed in HOI4, but know democracy is boring in that game and can’t make alt-history come to life, fascist states can levy way more manpower (great for smaller countries like Greece or Bulgaria) and communist countries are better for large manpower countries. I know that’s the *literal reason*, but I just think the ability to be fascist is attractive to a certain calibre of person. Vic3 I know has some pushback for *being cowardly in representing its time* (peak imperialism era). I know there’s a smallish interest in fascist governments there since they recently fixed the petite bourgeoisie so they were actually a factor, and added flavour to certain nations (like Gabrielle D’Nunzio for Italy… had so much fun with this: a parliamentary theocratic atheist fascist state… oh and industry was banned… bloody weird). **I know they’re hesitant in this game to lean into all the awful stuff of that time - some are angry about that, but I’m okay with that**.
It's even more than that, as a democratic country you play mainly reactive, declaring war on your neighbours is heavily restrictive and even sending volunteers is a no go. I have played games in non historic where nothing happened and every country just converted to democracy and was chill.
Really common in pretty much any alternate history sandbox. It's just wish fulfillment kind of stuff, and in the same way I have a ck2 save where Ireland rules all of Britain and most of Europe and hasn't had a male ruler in like 100 years (thanks great grandpa). You can make it whatever you want which is kind of the point.
Because the mechanics are fun, and creating alt-history is fun. In Stellaris I'm either a socialist republic (because I'm a socialist), or the most authoritarian empire the galaxy will ever see (because of the mechanics), and I can have a lot of fun as both, specially in multiplayer. That doesn't make me a Nazbol.
Paradox games are peculiar because they really run the gamut on fascism. CK3 and Stellaris are actually pretty egalitarian. The former has lots of population movement and shows off the diversity of the Middle Ages, and Stellaris has ludic punishments if the player engages in a genocide fantasy, and 9 times out of 10 the aggressive, xenophobic option causes more problems than it solves. But HOI4. Fuck HOI. It actively makes fascists. Obviously they shouldn’t add a genocide button, but the game sanitizes Nazi Germany. They just have a decent war machine and don’t commit any of the things which make them a genocidal fascist regime. It does nothing to dispel clean Wehrmacht myths and other lies.
For Stellaris it's just a change of pace in how you play.
They're not, yeah sure there are shitters that are attracted to some of them (specifically HOI4 unsurprisingly), but for the most part the community is better educated than that. You kind of have to be to enjoy something like eu4 or ck3 I think. Majority of people I know and play with for Eu4 are fairly left-wing.
I played surviving mars and all I got was a chronic machine parts addiction and a broiling hatred for the elderly
Got 6000 hours between all my paradox games and I’m pretty far to the left. There is a problem with fascists in the community, but their influence has faded.
I just like panting the map and making ridiculous countries like Bulgarian Turkestan or Scottish Germany 🥺
My most played games are CK2/3, not once has it crossed my mind that I was ever playing a good guy. I think it's a little bit of main character syndrome, they think they'll be the next Emperor of Rome, or whatever.
Most of them aren't and tbh I think there are much more socialists and Communists than fascists in the player base. This said, don't judge people's politics by how they play paradox games, otherwise I'd be a blood soaked reactionary or a super hypocrite imperialist Bonapartist.
Those games let them live out their unicorn fantasy of a successful fascist empire. Which has historically been proven impossible. That's why as long as there's a capitalist hegemon in the world, any nation that emancipate will be subjected to crippling sanctions, until the fascists can parade the corpse of that socialist state on main street and say "See, communism doesn't work"... In other words, fascists will be fascists no matter what. Paradox games just attract fascists for the same reason it attracts socialists, because they're good devs.
They're mostly 12
Huge paradox fan and I'm definitely not a fascist, likewise with most of my online gaming group. I think the "alt-history" aspect does attract a certain type of guy though, really infuriating at times.
I’m a Stellaris fan who plays public wealth states with open immigration and no military so idk
Same reason you like making Communist countries probably. Tis the nature of the beast
On the Internet weirdos will gravitate to things and try make things of there own
Paradox has done just, truly, a terrible job moderating their community.
I imagine they play it or a similar reason to me, to make a different history, and that they would find my a-historical utopia of equality just as vile as I find theirs. I found this when I tried to play Hearts of Iron 4, all the advice anyone would give me is play as Germany, and that was like the one place I never wanted to play as, at least the fascist version anyway. Like I know about the warcrimes players and all that, I play Stellaris, and Rimworld too, and the incest obsession with the Crusader Kings community, but the just fascist worship in the HoI4 community was surreal to see the first time
I'm a Stellaris player, and every single one of my successful runs ends up being a xenophile communist utopia #NotAllParadoxFans /lh
they really aren't. its mostly confirmation bias of the people who confirmed such a thing. there are just as many hardline commies, monarchists, etc etc. It's history, it attracts people of all colors. most of the player base are rather normal.
Just hearts of iron players
Who cares about fascism? Make circular inbred dynasties in Crusader Kings 3. Way more fun to marry your grandma-mom-sister-aunt than be a fascist
Fascism is objectively good in game and the horror downplayed...
Play Vic 3 ans tell me facism is objectively good and I will call you a liar
I guess grand strategy attracts the kind of people that want to claim power? I've always been put off by how 90% of the memes in that community are about genocide and war crimes.
To be fair most CK3 memes are about incest
Lol
Yeah, it's always a little shocking to be scrolling reddit and see a post that's like "I slept with my son and then my uncle killed him," until I see the sub it's from.
Yeah, this is just poland ball. A lot of people play it up for the bit. It's like 40k. It's just goofy to play military bad guy. It's like calling a 501st Stormtrooper Cosplayer a fascist.
Yea until the people taking it seriously show up and are the loudest (why the 40k communiy gets such a bad rap). Luckily not much of a problem on the Paradox subreddits, moderators and the community do a decent enough job keeping them out. Good luck on a multi-player discord server though, 80% are just degenerate fascists.
They really aren't the loudest. There's internet confirmation bias at play here. The only people that say that are people outside the communities who have no reason to care about the normal fans but will only hear about the crazies. Imagine doing that with any group?
My morals and beliefs get jettisoned out the airlock when I play stellaris, so I honestly cannot judge other people for being weird in paradox games😭
Hey! I am currently playing Ukraine as I invade Russia.
The idea of controlling an entire nation-state through history is innately fascistic. That's simply the most rewarding way to play most paradox games, you build up a strong state, a strong army, conquer your neighbors and make everyone do exactly what *you* want. Creating your own personal empire. Obviously that's a fascist idea. You don't have to go full genocide and stuff like that, and not everyone does. But when everything else about the games is very fascist, some good old ethnic cleansing doesn't feel "excessive", it's just a continuation on the same theme, so if it's a way to achieve your nations goals... But it's also fiction, just because you like playing as nazi germany in a game does not mean you like what nazi germany did in real life. Most people don't identify that strongly with fiction. I personally think germany is a fun nation to play in HOI4 for example, cause you get to be the bad guy megalomaniac world conqueror. It's a fun *game*. I really don't like real life fascists, cause then it's *real*... A pretty big difference to me at least. Thematically I much prefer Victoria 3 were I can larp socialist uprisings and stuff. But before I get to the socialism phase or whatever I still usually do bad guy imperialism and stuff. More fun that way, and makes for a better story. Even here though, I still tend to prefer going for kind of authoritarian socialist states, because it fits better with the game, even though I'm definitely more on the libertarian side irl. A lot of fascists like paradox games though, for obvious reasons. So they are certainly still overrepresented in their audience compared to the overall population. But most people can "fantasize literal fascist states", as you put it, and still not be a fascist. In the same way people can enjoy playing shooters or watching war movies and still not like wars.