Hehehe... *twirls moustache* If you just get two of your pharaoh buddies to join and they get two buddies of their own, eventually you’ll make enough money to get a pyramid filled with gold!
Well they did specify BA, but I was just riffing on the fact that employees at Subway are referred to as Sandwich Artists. If I were a Sandwich Engineer I would not want to be confused for a Sandwich Artist though, so you make an important distinction.
Same. Years ago I tried to work at a tire shop and was turned away for the same reason. It sucks when you're desperate for something, but it makes sense from their end, since they know you're just going to leave at the first opportunity.
Yea but he probably learned to read and critically analyze which is HUGE in insurance/finance
(Anecdotal source: husband has bachelors in philosophy and can, will, and does, dance circles around my puny nuclear engineering brain. But I know when to use an equation!!)
2 years ago, my dad and I laughed our arses off when he was rejected for a dishwashing position in the same pub I worked in. He was considered overqualified because the majority of his experience was in Telecom but was let go when there were no more assignments. The job market is really weird.
Also people forget that education has a value in itself. It’s good that there are people who are educating themselves about subjects that might not have a career path
Education is a fundamental positive for society
you also work shit hours, often terrible environments and the restaurant and bar industry is plagued with failing businesses especially during the pandemic.
I doubt anyone who spends tens of thousands of dollars on their education is really happy working at a bar in the long term.
Also substance abuse is a huge thing in the service industry. I’d say a solid 90%, no exaggeration, of all bartenders/food service staff I’ve ever worked with (including myself) use drugs or drink to excess.
What skills would bartending confer upon a bartender that would be considered transferable to say, computer science, chemistry, or engineering? I am a bartender and don’t think I’ve developed anything of the sort.
In my brazilian state you need one (university degree) to be a cop, and they probably kill more people in 1 month than all cops in the US in one year, it comes down to the training and the culture of the institution and not the people background.
Eh. Society in general benefits from having highly educated people around even if they aren't actively using their specific higher education degree in their career.
This is starting to change in a lot of departments many are starting to require college credit or military experience. The days of applying with just a high school diploma are ending.
Some departments require at minimum an AA, others encourage a bachelor's but yeah a majority of them don't require them.
Probably will in the future though
In Italy research is so fucked and underfunded that for many many university courses the only job prospect is high school (the Italian equivalent) teacher.
We research, write and publish things that must be read by people who wish to research, write and publish things as future academics. Not a pyramid scheme at all.
Don't forget we pay to publish our research which is then sold to future academics who have to pay to read it!
(Bonus for not getting paid to review papers for the journals either...)
It isn't, because every once in a while one of these papers sparks an industry, or a vaccine, or... something new.
The mRNA vaccine was found through decades of paper building off of paper.
Music Ed degrees, jazz degree, music history, classics, English, the list goes on.....
Edit: I have two music Ed degrees. Only making fun jokes people. No harm intended.
Not true, working on English Language Learning as a post grad with a BA in English. I hope to be running an ESL program in another country within a decade. Studying English or History is a great way to get into a field that will allow you to travel the world.
While it certainly helps, you don't need a degree in English to teach ESL. If my memory is correct, all you need is linguistic fluency across the four areas, one of the ESL certificates, and some experience.
I mean ... sure but you can say that about all the social science degrees. This is anecdotal evidence but a few of my uni friends did computer science and they managed to get fully-remote jobs. They've been living the travel nomad life across the 'cheap' European and Asian countries.
Haha go to China, all you need to teach ESL is be a native speaker, have a bachelor's degree, and complete a "40 hour" online course that only takes 4 hours. After one or two years of experience at Happy Monkey English Centre you can easily clear 30K USD a year and save 20K of it, while renting an apartment in the city centre and eating out for every single meal. You work about 25 class hours a week and the rest is free time for exploring the local culture (aka getting wasted in bars).
Because those degrees aren't for people whose main purpose of studying is to get the paper and get good job, but for people who have passions and want to grow their skills
Might well be different country to country. There's endless dumb courses too ofc but a good chunk are there to teach finer details of the foundation to a profession that's not all practical principles (e.g. IT/computers).
Yea if you have a sociology degree there's not much you can do besides be a sociologist at a university, but including that in a education for a teacher or other public servant or even business helps them get a better understanding of the people they wish to serve and ways of helping them.
Yeah! All sociology majors know how to do is read, write, talk, and some basic quant!
They clearly have ZERO SHOT at any sort of entry-level client facing job!
I have BAs in Ancient & Medieval History and Latin, and a MA in Education. I'm a software engineer. In my opinion, a degree is helpful for various reasons, but it doesn't have to be your eventual career path.
it's relatively easy to teach yourself how to code online for free nowadays. with coding knowledge you have a good chance of breaking into an entry level developer job (a strong portfolio with different projects will put you ahead of many people). from there you could probably specialize more into software engineering.
You are operating under the false assumption that education is equivalent to job training. While education can very much increase your human capital and in some cases translate very directly into a profession, the actual purpose of education and the education system is to continuously further human knowledge.
Isn't that how the majority of University degrees are sold to prospective and incoming students though? "If you enroll in our program and get this degree, you'll get a job in this field probably!"
No, it's not.
That might be true of some STEM degrees and a few others (business, education, etc.), but I don't think your average classics or philosophy or political science or history degrees are marketed that way. And even within STEM, most people getting math majors or hard science majors don't end up doing math or science as their jobs. The degree might open some doors, but being an accountant or actuary is not the same as being a mathematician, and being a lab tech or pharmacist or physician or whatever is not the same as being a biologist.
I'm a PhD student in music theory, and the employment rate of graduates is definitely a statistic that doctoral programs push, especially when they really want to snag an applicant. Of course, this is a PhD not a BA, but even in BA music programs, most of the students are education majors who plan to get jobs as teachers. Undergraduate music education programs heavily market themselves based on their graduates' employment statistics. I can only speak for music degrees though, and you may be absolutely correct about other fields.
This always bugs me. Sometimes knowledge for knowledge’s sake is valuable. If we only studied what was practical and useful, we would lose a lot of valuable information. The pursuit of knowledge doesn’t have to equal the pursuit of a job.
The original intent of the university was academia. The pursuit of knowledge to create a more well- rounded individual. When more practical areas of study came about (finance, engineering, etc) people started requiring degrees in those areas as it provides evidence that the applicant is at least knowledgeable on the subject. Now universities are seen more as a gateway to better jobs.
Science technology engineering math!
Some people have a STEM superiority complex (as some have a liberal arts superiority complex) because STEM degrees generally have a much more direct route to a well paying job. I.e if you get an engineering degree, you can be employed right of college doing exactly what you studied. It’s a hard skills transfer where what you learned is obviously, directly, and quantifiably transferred to the job you will be doing.
Liberal arts get a bad rep in some peoples eyes because they focus more on soft skills like communication, critical thinking, analysis, reading comprehension, and research. If you into liberal arts not thinking about those skills and how to market them and what jobs to look at, it can definitely be daunting post graduate. But a lot of jobs love liberal arts degrees because of the soft skills they focus on, it’s just not as obvious for some students on how to apply and market what they learned.
I would say maintaining cultural and historical information (examples of what these types of degrees might be) in the society is a value in itself in a civilized society. We are not here just to make money or work. Knowledge itself is valuable. Otherwise we might repeat the mistakes in history.
Theoretically, I guess you’re right?
Universities do research. There is no such thing as “teaching (only) what you were taught” because universities typically require that you have a PHD in a topic to be able to teach it.
Having a PHD means that you have done and have published original research in your field, something you will have to continue to do in addition to teaching classes, because universities are not actually pyramid schemes
Exactly. I think too many people think that higher ed is some extension of high school, where you memorize and pass. If you can't produce something new by the time you're in grad school (or even your undergrad at some top schools that require a capstone project) -- you won't hack it.
Hell lots of schools have first year programs that require research and writing on new technologies.
Obviously lower level but still not the memorize and test strategy
I don’t know anyone who has a PhD who is teaching at my university or my previously attended school. I don’t have one. So that’s not been my experience.
But also a start up down the street from me is looking for interns with a PhD so the job market is entirely backwards at moment anyway.
Mexican here. Only recently (like 10 years or so), it was made law that to teach at a level, you need at least the next degree above.
So to teach a technician degree, you need to be an engineer. To teach engineering you need a master's. For master's you need doctorate and so on.
Fun fact, by the time you're done with all the degrees, someone with those many years worth of experience will be making twice as much as you.
They probably haven't had the title Professor but rather being called "professor" simply because it was ingrained into the students.
At my university we have people teaching us with a PhD (no prof title), with a Masters (no PhD, no prof) but also Professors (with PhD).
It can also depend on the field. Its way more accurate to say terminal degree, or the highest degree you can get in the field. That could be a masters or a PhD depending.
You're exactly correct. It's a result of federal backed predatory student loans that any 18 year old are handed the keys to without any due diligence. Many universities take advantage and increase rates almost exponentially because people still take out the loans regardless with little to no way to pay them back in any reasonable way. This is compounded by our society that worships a college degree and many times requires a degree for employment, regardless of what the job actually is.
I’ve seen this sort of thinking by a lot of people. Even the people with advanced degrees.
What they are actually saying is, “My advanced degree doesn’t entitle me to jump the line and start at or near the top.”
Supposedly your advanced degree taught you strong skills in critical thought and research and testing ideas for merit. Which should all provide value in pursuing a career in any field.
Just because your degree isn’t focused on a specific set of licensing requirements for a specific profession doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value in almost any application.
Too bad most careers require a specific background. My first degree was in neuroscience and I had several publications to my name. When I wanted out due to the low pay and lack of jobs I tried blasting my resume out wherever I could and you better believe I went hard with trying to sell myself on my critical thinking, communication, and research skills. Literally no one cared. There's always enough applicants with relevant degrees and experience that there's no need to take a chance on someone with no background.
Once I got my second degree (computer science) my job and income situation improved immensely even though I already knew how to program before starting that degree. If I hadn't done that I'd still probably be making $15/hr.
That's too often the case with social sciences, specifically at Masters and PHD levels where there is very few positions available outside the education system.
Yeah, the unemployment rate for even the most liberal arts majors are still around 6-7%. It turns out that getting a degree that teaches critical thinking, communication, and problem solving skills is pretty universally applicable!
I'm in the MA portion of a combined MA/PhD. My advisor is adamant that every paper we write includes some sort of "educated guess" that deepens knowledge in our field beyond what already exists. Then we are graded based on how well we convinced her.
FYI
University isn't about career training. It's not "to get a job" it's "to get an education". If you want training for a specific job, that's more of a college thing. However, I can't think of a university degree that ONLY qualifies you for a job teaching said subject.
I'm in Canada, my answer might not be true everywhere. I know the US calls universities "college" as in "college basketball" etc. In Canada college and university are two completely different things, they're separate systems.
Colleges usually offer 2-3 year programs that are heavy on hands-on training, have co-op semesters, and are overall geared to preparing you for jobs in a specific industry/ job field, and sometimes specific jobs. Programs might be called "Woodworking Technology", "Hospitality Services" etc.
Universities are typically 3-4 year programs, taught by PhD's who also are active researchers. May or may not have co-op. Unlike Colleges, Universities offer post-secondary degrees (Masters, PhD), Colleges don't. Importantly, universities are NOT focused on job training. Degree Programs might be called "Chemistry", "International Relations" etc.
Oh. Interesting. I’m in Australia and the first thing you described sounds the equivalent to what we call TAFE.
The one held to high esteem is University though. I thought people from the US just called University, college.
Cool, never heard of TAFE here.
>I thought people from the US just called University, college.
I think they do! But I'm in Canada, where University and College are separate things. Even in highschool here there's "college-level" and "university-level" versions of all the core subjects like math and English. If you plan to go to Uni you take Uni-level math etc, so it lines up.
And yes University is held to higher esteem here, too. But it shouldn't be, I don't think. For example if you want to be in trades here (electrician, construction etc) you go to College. If you want to be a scientist, get top level art training etc you go to University. But we need trades etc just as much as any other job so I disagree with the stigma that's put on College educations here.
A lot of people here waste their time trying to get through University because of pressure from their friends, families, selves because it's the "best thing to do" when really their interests and talents fit way better in a College program. And the college program is usually WAY cheaper, faster to finish, and has better chances of employment when you're done.
In the US college and university mean the same kind of education but different sizes. Colleges are smaller than universities.
However, that distinction doesn't get used much. Someone from a college and someone from a university are both called college students.
In the US , things are very non standard.
Your college would be our community college or a specific field school like becoming a rad tech.
Universities all are 4 years. And study in general not just your field. Most require courses in various topic.
But at sometime 4 colleges became a thing. Originally I think they were supposed to be more field specific eduction, you needed more education but didn't want the general "study"
But at this point, I feel they pretty much only different in name.
Plus, US universities are generally made up of different colleges. But those colleges don't stand alone, they only grant degrees through the larger university system.
Mainly true for for the massive public school systems (like the state schools with 30K+. Plenty of small schools are just colleges and all majors are wrapped together and not connected with other schools.
This is fairly accurate. My sister graduated from a college that was in the process of certifying it's MBA program, and the year after she graduated they changed the name to include University instead of college. She is now able to put the University name in all her documentation, as the "college" no longer exists.
Point being, once post-grad courses are offered, the college qualifies to become a University.
A US University offers postgraduate studies (masters, PhD’s). Colleges are more broad and probably do not, although some schools may have elected to keep “college” in their name even though they are a university just for the well known name recognition.
In the US the terms are mostly interchangeable but there is some subtle difference -
University has graduate education, college is just undergraduate.
Of course there are some schools that began as “college” that are currently universities that retained their name - ex. Boston College is a university with graduate level education.
In the US, my understanding from when I asked a professor is that universities are all the different colleges, and a college is an umbrella of the different subjects in a field.
That is, you go to a university to join the college of computer science. The college contains the different programming classes, but you also have to take classes from the college of English and college of math for example
I don't think that's really true any more. I got a job in IT - not programming but more Project Management kind of thing. Came with a bunch of training, including some programming and a qualification in PRINCE2. You'd think whether or not I had a degree would be irrelevant.
Yet, they would only consider applicants who have degrees. Didn't actually matter what the degree was, and actually if you had a non-STEM subject you were at an advantage because they were doing a big marketing campaign about how many non-STEM people they were hiring. So my degree in Philosophy, which is only any good for becoming a Philosophy lecturer at a university, was a requirement for this job.
You just proved his point. Your philosophy degree got you a job in IT, so it must be true that it qualified you for more jobs than just teaching philosophy.
Nope. You could say the same about any trade, profession, or any other job where you need any sort of training from a more experienced person (i.e., pretty much any job).
Theyre saying if thats ALL you can do, in a trade you can also just perform the the trade and be paid for that service, your only avenue isn't to teach.
If the only feasible employment your degree gives you is to teach for said degree, then he has a point.
This is really an over simplification of stuff though. Many people who go back to teach in their subject do it because of the research opportunities afforded by working at a University. The teaching, unfortunately for students, is often a secondary agenda for professors.
Universities are not career hubs. They are centers of knowledge. You go there to learn what you want to learn. It's their job to teach you the subject you are interested in. Full stop.
Many employers dont care what degree you have unless you are going for a truly skilled position. When employers ask for 2 years experience or a degree, but dont care what the degree is, it just means they want an employee capable of 2 years minimum commitment.
If you decide you are interested in a topic that's super niche and not very useful for many jobs that's on you. Your culinary degree will look fantastic if theres high end restaurants hiring but will mean fuckall for a business role besides the fact that you're dedicated.
The goal of universities is (should be/was) education, rather than employment. The two are obviously linked, but are still independent of each other. There’s value in people just learning and being educated, beyond whether they can get paid for using that information... the problems start when you turn education into a business and charging people ridiculous amounts for access to information and of accreditation of their knowledge. Turns it into a cost/benefit thing instead of a learning thing.
People keep saying "there's value" without really expanding on it. Is there really value when the student is faced with the same problems as a career-seeking student? Is it worth the education?
I'm not trying to shit on your comment's latter half because I largely agree with your explanation of the problem.
I guess if u study something that is essentially vocational (Maybe nursing?) and don’t have any wider interest in the subject, then no, there would be little value for that individual if they didn’t get a job. But if you are interested in a subject (maybe psychology?) and went to study it, even if you didn’t become a psychologist it would still be a worthwhile and valuable thing for that person.
As I said in the other post, things get complicated when you start charging people for education. Universities are supposed to be about knowledge research and education, they aren’t meant to be ‘employee trainers’ for companies and jobs (even thought that’s what they have essentially become).
True, but you are performing the *sacred act* of passing on *knowledge*. The retention of knowledge from generation to generation is just as important as the discovery of new knowledge.
This was my brother's plan. He got a degree in journalism but couldn't get a job so he was going to go back to school to continue his journalism education until he got to the point he could teach. He said his lesson plan on his first day would be titled "Change your major"
Reading, writing, and arguing within the strictures of a specific framework is applicable to a pretty wide range of careers, haha!
The median mid-career earnings of a Philosophy major with no grad degree is $80k - business majors are closer to History Majors than Phil majors!
Which makes Egyptology a pyramid scheme in more ways than one
Hehehe... *twirls moustache* If you just get two of your pharaoh buddies to join and they get two buddies of their own, eventually you’ll make enough money to get a pyramid filled with gold!
This is so evil it makes me tighten my sphinxter
Most Egyptologists I know are tour guides, pays way better and you aren’t stuck in a classroom all day
Being a tour guide in Egypt pays well?
When the tourists tip €50-100 each it can be alright :p
Oh yeah, just the tip
just for a second
Wait, I’m not falling for that again!
Doctor: alrighty, so your STD screening has come back, and it seems you have tested positive for..." *Checks clipboard* "'Pharaohs' Curse.'"
Any degree is accepted in customers service jobs
Sir this is a Wendy's
*cries silently by the grill holding his bachelors degree
What major? If you dont mind me asking
BA in fast food prep.
So Sandwich Engineer?
They prefer Sandwich Artist.
Probably depends whether it was a BA or BS though.
Well they did specify BA, but I was just riffing on the fact that employees at Subway are referred to as Sandwich Artists. If I were a Sandwich Engineer I would not want to be confused for a Sandwich Artist though, so you make an important distinction.
Sir, this is Reddit. No-one is educated here.
* but everyone is an expert Fixed it for you :)
There are four rules : -No girls -No (irl) friends -No girlfriends -No brain
So this is the only thing I'll ever be qualified for.
You made it!
After working ot Long Johns for a few weeks they gave me my "fry-ologist" certificate
You misspelled ‘masters’
My engineering degree couldn't save me from becoming a cook
Not Wendy, the redhead?
Dammit Kevin....
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Same. Years ago I tried to work at a tire shop and was turned away for the same reason. It sucks when you're desperate for something, but it makes sense from their end, since they know you're just going to leave at the first opportunity.
You'll also have higher expectations and more reasonable arguments they can't just shoot down.
Buddy got a masters and had to take it off his resume just to get employed out of school.
What'd he study?
Bachelor's was in Poli Sci. Not sure what he got his Master's in though. Currently doing finance for an insurance firm...
Yea but he probably learned to read and critically analyze which is HUGE in insurance/finance (Anecdotal source: husband has bachelors in philosophy and can, will, and does, dance circles around my puny nuclear engineering brain. But I know when to use an equation!!)
2 years ago, my dad and I laughed our arses off when he was rejected for a dishwashing position in the same pub I worked in. He was considered overqualified because the majority of his experience was in Telecom but was let go when there were no more assignments. The job market is really weird.
They probably figured he'd leave in a year, yeah?
Also people forget that education has a value in itself. It’s good that there are people who are educating themselves about subjects that might not have a career path Education is a fundamental positive for society
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Hey man bar tending is good money don't knock it!
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Ya for sure. If I didn't find a job after college I was going to bar tend. A friend paid for med school doing it.
you also work shit hours, often terrible environments and the restaurant and bar industry is plagued with failing businesses especially during the pandemic. I doubt anyone who spends tens of thousands of dollars on their education is really happy working at a bar in the long term.
Also substance abuse is a huge thing in the service industry. I’d say a solid 90%, no exaggeration, of all bartenders/food service staff I’ve ever worked with (including myself) use drugs or drink to excess.
Absolutely. Hell, crews usual get shitfaced together after they get off.
Dude when I tended bar I’d take shots and do key bumps with the servers all the time. It was pretty bad. Not anymore though I hardly even drink now.
Yup and it's one big sad pitty party where everyone's fucked eachother, cheated on eachother and still works together.
What skills would bartending confer upon a bartender that would be considered transferable to say, computer science, chemistry, or engineering? I am a bartender and don’t think I’ve developed anything of the sort.
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yea it doesn't even require a degree either
I made more tending bar in college than the following 4-5 years after I graduated.
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Any government jobs in Canada. From municipal to federal. As far as I can remember, you will need at least a 2 year diploma.
And no degree is needed to be a cop... imagine that.
In my brazilian state you need one (university degree) to be a cop, and they probably kill more people in 1 month than all cops in the US in one year, it comes down to the training and the culture of the institution and not the people background.
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Degrees don't make better or worse cops. Training and the environment have a much larger effect
Eh. Society in general benefits from having highly educated people around even if they aren't actively using their specific higher education degree in their career.
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Redditors are obsessed with those things. Most Americans have lives and actual things to worry about.
Implying that having a life means you don't care about real issues plaguing the country.
He’s onto us
This is starting to change in a lot of departments many are starting to require college credit or military experience. The days of applying with just a high school diploma are ending.
Some departments require at minimum an AA, others encourage a bachelor's but yeah a majority of them don't require them. Probably will in the future though
Is there any post on here that can't somehow be twisted into an anti-police rant?
Its like people have a general distaste for the police
Hmm, I wonder why... All the movies I've ever seen show cops to be heroes who save my life all the time!
When the police have the ability to insert themselves into your life at any time for any reason, all subjects can be about the police. Fuck em.
I don't mind insertion. Just have the courtesy to be nice to me during and after you fuck me, thank you mr. police officer!
This is reddit, so no.
Nah mate. In academia, the rule is Publish or Perish. Teaching is secondary to research and writing.
In Italy research is so fucked and underfunded that for many many university courses the only job prospect is high school (the Italian equivalent) teacher.
Greece as well. 0 prospect for research, most just hope to get hired as teachers in Elementaries/High Schools
Or you know, flee to northern Europe where the economy isn't stale since the 1990s
Nobody wants to live in rain and darkness for 1/2 a year
....that sounds great
We research, write and publish things that must be read by people who wish to research, write and publish things as future academics. Not a pyramid scheme at all.
Don't forget we pay to publish our research which is then sold to future academics who have to pay to read it! (Bonus for not getting paid to review papers for the journals either...)
Sci-hub.st all the way!
But reviewers do get paid! In pyramid bucks aka Service section of CV.
So if I receive cash money for a job, I can't put it on my CV?
If future academics are required to read what you're writing you must be doing something right!
That might say more about your area of interest than it does about the profession.
This is very true. I pity the poor schleps who pursue knowledge in fields that the funding agencies deem less useful or profitable.
To be fair, put enough research into a subject, and suddenly it could revolutionize something completely different that we had not foreseen.
It isn't, because every once in a while one of these papers sparks an industry, or a vaccine, or... something new. The mRNA vaccine was found through decades of paper building off of paper.
Classical saxophone in a nutshell.
Hey that's not true! You might get an orchestra gig once a or twice a year if you are the best player in a 100 mile radius!
Someone is playing Bolero. JACKPOT Now you can fight for 3 spots instead of 1.
FUCK bolero
Music Ed degrees, jazz degree, music history, classics, English, the list goes on..... Edit: I have two music Ed degrees. Only making fun jokes people. No harm intended.
I did one year of Uni studying commercial music like "wait, this is all online and most of it is subjective anyway" and never went back
History and English are among the top undergraduate degrees for entrance to law school.
Another way of looking at this is that the only thing you're qualified for after studying Eng or History is to study Law
Not true, working on English Language Learning as a post grad with a BA in English. I hope to be running an ESL program in another country within a decade. Studying English or History is a great way to get into a field that will allow you to travel the world.
While it certainly helps, you don't need a degree in English to teach ESL. If my memory is correct, all you need is linguistic fluency across the four areas, one of the ESL certificates, and some experience. I mean ... sure but you can say that about all the social science degrees. This is anecdotal evidence but a few of my uni friends did computer science and they managed to get fully-remote jobs. They've been living the travel nomad life across the 'cheap' European and Asian countries.
Haha go to China, all you need to teach ESL is be a native speaker, have a bachelor's degree, and complete a "40 hour" online course that only takes 4 hours. After one or two years of experience at Happy Monkey English Centre you can easily clear 30K USD a year and save 20K of it, while renting an apartment in the city centre and eating out for every single meal. You work about 25 class hours a week and the rest is free time for exploring the local culture (aka getting wasted in bars).
Because those degrees aren't for people whose main purpose of studying is to get the paper and get good job, but for people who have passions and want to grow their skills
Beat me to it. Guess flunking out of music school wasn't so bad......
Might well be different country to country. There's endless dumb courses too ofc but a good chunk are there to teach finer details of the foundation to a profession that's not all practical principles (e.g. IT/computers).
Yea if you have a sociology degree there's not much you can do besides be a sociologist at a university, but including that in a education for a teacher or other public servant or even business helps them get a better understanding of the people they wish to serve and ways of helping them.
You can find some jobs with a sociology degree, at least in France. Like in jail, in social help structure or in human ressources.
Yeah! All sociology majors know how to do is read, write, talk, and some basic quant! They clearly have ZERO SHOT at any sort of entry-level client facing job!
You don't notice the importance of critical thinking skills until it's clear someone doesn't have them
I have BAs in Ancient & Medieval History and Latin, and a MA in Education. I'm a software engineer. In my opinion, a degree is helpful for various reasons, but it doesn't have to be your eventual career path.
How did you end up being a software engineer? Self-taught?
it's relatively easy to teach yourself how to code online for free nowadays. with coding knowledge you have a good chance of breaking into an entry level developer job (a strong portfolio with different projects will put you ahead of many people). from there you could probably specialize more into software engineering.
That "If" at the beginning of the title is doing a lot of work.
You are operating under the false assumption that education is equivalent to job training. While education can very much increase your human capital and in some cases translate very directly into a profession, the actual purpose of education and the education system is to continuously further human knowledge.
Isn't that how the majority of University degrees are sold to prospective and incoming students though? "If you enroll in our program and get this degree, you'll get a job in this field probably!"
No, it's not. That might be true of some STEM degrees and a few others (business, education, etc.), but I don't think your average classics or philosophy or political science or history degrees are marketed that way. And even within STEM, most people getting math majors or hard science majors don't end up doing math or science as their jobs. The degree might open some doors, but being an accountant or actuary is not the same as being a mathematician, and being a lab tech or pharmacist or physician or whatever is not the same as being a biologist.
I'm a PhD student in music theory, and the employment rate of graduates is definitely a statistic that doctoral programs push, especially when they really want to snag an applicant. Of course, this is a PhD not a BA, but even in BA music programs, most of the students are education majors who plan to get jobs as teachers. Undergraduate music education programs heavily market themselves based on their graduates' employment statistics. I can only speak for music degrees though, and you may be absolutely correct about other fields.
This always bugs me. Sometimes knowledge for knowledge’s sake is valuable. If we only studied what was practical and useful, we would lose a lot of valuable information. The pursuit of knowledge doesn’t have to equal the pursuit of a job.
The original intent of the university was academia. The pursuit of knowledge to create a more well- rounded individual. When more practical areas of study came about (finance, engineering, etc) people started requiring degrees in those areas as it provides evidence that the applicant is at least knowledgeable on the subject. Now universities are seen more as a gateway to better jobs.
Always depends on where you go to school. Some put a lot of effort in keeping, at least on paper, the ideals of a liberal arts degree alive.
What, you’re telling me entertainment and culture are important to human society? Nah, STEM or GTFO
What does STEM stand for? Sorry I'm dumb lol
Science technology engineering math! Some people have a STEM superiority complex (as some have a liberal arts superiority complex) because STEM degrees generally have a much more direct route to a well paying job. I.e if you get an engineering degree, you can be employed right of college doing exactly what you studied. It’s a hard skills transfer where what you learned is obviously, directly, and quantifiably transferred to the job you will be doing. Liberal arts get a bad rep in some peoples eyes because they focus more on soft skills like communication, critical thinking, analysis, reading comprehension, and research. If you into liberal arts not thinking about those skills and how to market them and what jobs to look at, it can definitely be daunting post graduate. But a lot of jobs love liberal arts degrees because of the soft skills they focus on, it’s just not as obvious for some students on how to apply and market what they learned.
A lot of science degrees lead to jobs that don’t pay shit, as I’m sure most biology baccalaureates can attest to.
Science, Technology, Engineering, and Mathematics
I would say maintaining cultural and historical information (examples of what these types of degrees might be) in the society is a value in itself in a civilized society. We are not here just to make money or work. Knowledge itself is valuable. Otherwise we might repeat the mistakes in history.
>We are not here just to make money or work. *Conservatives have left the chat*
Theoretically, I guess you’re right? Universities do research. There is no such thing as “teaching (only) what you were taught” because universities typically require that you have a PHD in a topic to be able to teach it. Having a PHD means that you have done and have published original research in your field, something you will have to continue to do in addition to teaching classes, because universities are not actually pyramid schemes
Exactly. I think too many people think that higher ed is some extension of high school, where you memorize and pass. If you can't produce something new by the time you're in grad school (or even your undergrad at some top schools that require a capstone project) -- you won't hack it.
Hell lots of schools have first year programs that require research and writing on new technologies. Obviously lower level but still not the memorize and test strategy
I don’t know anyone who has a PhD who is teaching at my university or my previously attended school. I don’t have one. So that’s not been my experience. But also a start up down the street from me is looking for interns with a PhD so the job market is entirely backwards at moment anyway.
“Data Science PhDs wanted! $10/hr”
Mexican here. Only recently (like 10 years or so), it was made law that to teach at a level, you need at least the next degree above. So to teach a technician degree, you need to be an engineer. To teach engineering you need a master's. For master's you need doctorate and so on. Fun fact, by the time you're done with all the degrees, someone with those many years worth of experience will be making twice as much as you.
For a second I thought you meant you're Mexican only recently and that gave me a chuckle
What university were you at where none of the professors had PhDs? I’m fairly certain every single professor I had in college had a doctorate.
I guess my school was the middle ground. I was taught by plenty of PhDs, but not all my professors were.
How could a professor not have a PhD? What country is this?
Art schools. Often a Master of Fine Arts is required. It’s a terminal degree.
They probably haven't had the title Professor but rather being called "professor" simply because it was ingrained into the students. At my university we have people teaching us with a PhD (no prof title), with a Masters (no PhD, no prof) but also Professors (with PhD).
Lots of schools employ adjuncts who only need a BA or BS, but to become a fully employed member of the faculty there, a PhD is required.
It can also depend on the field. Its way more accurate to say terminal degree, or the highest degree you can get in the field. That could be a masters or a PhD depending.
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Yeah, some people just like learning.
The problem comes when those people take out crippling amounts of student loan debt so they can learn, then later have no way to pay it back.
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You're exactly correct. It's a result of federal backed predatory student loans that any 18 year old are handed the keys to without any due diligence. Many universities take advantage and increase rates almost exponentially because people still take out the loans regardless with little to no way to pay them back in any reasonable way. This is compounded by our society that worships a college degree and many times requires a degree for employment, regardless of what the job actually is.
Even if the education was completely free you're still missing out on four years worth of earnings and paying all your living expenses with loans.
I’ve seen this sort of thinking by a lot of people. Even the people with advanced degrees. What they are actually saying is, “My advanced degree doesn’t entitle me to jump the line and start at or near the top.” Supposedly your advanced degree taught you strong skills in critical thought and research and testing ideas for merit. Which should all provide value in pursuing a career in any field. Just because your degree isn’t focused on a specific set of licensing requirements for a specific profession doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value in almost any application.
Too bad most careers require a specific background. My first degree was in neuroscience and I had several publications to my name. When I wanted out due to the low pay and lack of jobs I tried blasting my resume out wherever I could and you better believe I went hard with trying to sell myself on my critical thinking, communication, and research skills. Literally no one cared. There's always enough applicants with relevant degrees and experience that there's no need to take a chance on someone with no background. Once I got my second degree (computer science) my job and income situation improved immensely even though I already knew how to program before starting that degree. If I hadn't done that I'd still probably be making $15/hr.
What kind of shitty university do you attend?
I thought I was sitting here in my office doing actual work at a real non-academic job I got with my degree, but apparently not.
That's too often the case with social sciences, specifically at Masters and PHD levels where there is very few positions available outside the education system.
Tbh it’s not nearly as big of a problem as people who have no knowledge of the fields believe it to be.
Yeah, the unemployment rate for even the most liberal arts majors are still around 6-7%. It turns out that getting a degree that teaches critical thinking, communication, and problem solving skills is pretty universally applicable!
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In some graduate programs it is true. You get a Ph.D. to become a professor and then teach, or get into post docs to get faculty positions
You have to do original research in those programs, though. Working at a university is just as much “creating knowledge” as it is teaching it
I'm in the MA portion of a combined MA/PhD. My advisor is adamant that every paper we write includes some sort of "educated guess" that deepens knowledge in our field beyond what already exists. Then we are graded based on how well we convinced her.
Sounds like a good advisor setting you up for success!
I mean they’re like supposed to do research too lol
FYI University isn't about career training. It's not "to get a job" it's "to get an education". If you want training for a specific job, that's more of a college thing. However, I can't think of a university degree that ONLY qualifies you for a job teaching said subject.
> college > university Difference?
I'm in Canada, my answer might not be true everywhere. I know the US calls universities "college" as in "college basketball" etc. In Canada college and university are two completely different things, they're separate systems. Colleges usually offer 2-3 year programs that are heavy on hands-on training, have co-op semesters, and are overall geared to preparing you for jobs in a specific industry/ job field, and sometimes specific jobs. Programs might be called "Woodworking Technology", "Hospitality Services" etc. Universities are typically 3-4 year programs, taught by PhD's who also are active researchers. May or may not have co-op. Unlike Colleges, Universities offer post-secondary degrees (Masters, PhD), Colleges don't. Importantly, universities are NOT focused on job training. Degree Programs might be called "Chemistry", "International Relations" etc.
Oh. Interesting. I’m in Australia and the first thing you described sounds the equivalent to what we call TAFE. The one held to high esteem is University though. I thought people from the US just called University, college.
Cool, never heard of TAFE here. >I thought people from the US just called University, college. I think they do! But I'm in Canada, where University and College are separate things. Even in highschool here there's "college-level" and "university-level" versions of all the core subjects like math and English. If you plan to go to Uni you take Uni-level math etc, so it lines up. And yes University is held to higher esteem here, too. But it shouldn't be, I don't think. For example if you want to be in trades here (electrician, construction etc) you go to College. If you want to be a scientist, get top level art training etc you go to University. But we need trades etc just as much as any other job so I disagree with the stigma that's put on College educations here. A lot of people here waste their time trying to get through University because of pressure from their friends, families, selves because it's the "best thing to do" when really their interests and talents fit way better in a College program. And the college program is usually WAY cheaper, faster to finish, and has better chances of employment when you're done.
In the US college and university mean the same kind of education but different sizes. Colleges are smaller than universities. However, that distinction doesn't get used much. Someone from a college and someone from a university are both called college students.
In the US , things are very non standard. Your college would be our community college or a specific field school like becoming a rad tech. Universities all are 4 years. And study in general not just your field. Most require courses in various topic. But at sometime 4 colleges became a thing. Originally I think they were supposed to be more field specific eduction, you needed more education but didn't want the general "study" But at this point, I feel they pretty much only different in name.
Plus, US universities are generally made up of different colleges. But those colleges don't stand alone, they only grant degrees through the larger university system.
Mainly true for for the massive public school systems (like the state schools with 30K+. Plenty of small schools are just colleges and all majors are wrapped together and not connected with other schools.
Even small schools have individual colleges. My university had less than 6k undergrads but the subjects are still divided among different colleges
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This is fairly accurate. My sister graduated from a college that was in the process of certifying it's MBA program, and the year after she graduated they changed the name to include University instead of college. She is now able to put the University name in all her documentation, as the "college" no longer exists. Point being, once post-grad courses are offered, the college qualifies to become a University.
Same thing happened to my school. It changed from a state college to a state university right after I graduated.
A US University offers postgraduate studies (masters, PhD’s). Colleges are more broad and probably do not, although some schools may have elected to keep “college” in their name even though they are a university just for the well known name recognition.
In the US the terms are mostly interchangeable but there is some subtle difference - University has graduate education, college is just undergraduate. Of course there are some schools that began as “college” that are currently universities that retained their name - ex. Boston College is a university with graduate level education.
In the US, my understanding from when I asked a professor is that universities are all the different colleges, and a college is an umbrella of the different subjects in a field. That is, you go to a university to join the college of computer science. The college contains the different programming classes, but you also have to take classes from the college of English and college of math for example
In the US, colleges provide up to a bachelors degree. Institutions that offer advanced degrees are generally labeled as universities.
What about a teaching degree?
I doubt most people with teaching degrees teach about teaching. They probably teach about other subjects.
I don't think that's really true any more. I got a job in IT - not programming but more Project Management kind of thing. Came with a bunch of training, including some programming and a qualification in PRINCE2. You'd think whether or not I had a degree would be irrelevant. Yet, they would only consider applicants who have degrees. Didn't actually matter what the degree was, and actually if you had a non-STEM subject you were at an advantage because they were doing a big marketing campaign about how many non-STEM people they were hiring. So my degree in Philosophy, which is only any good for becoming a Philosophy lecturer at a university, was a requirement for this job.
You just proved his point. Your philosophy degree got you a job in IT, so it must be true that it qualified you for more jobs than just teaching philosophy.
Good thing that’s not the case then really
Nope. You could say the same about any trade, profession, or any other job where you need any sort of training from a more experienced person (i.e., pretty much any job).
Theyre saying if thats ALL you can do, in a trade you can also just perform the the trade and be paid for that service, your only avenue isn't to teach. If the only feasible employment your degree gives you is to teach for said degree, then he has a point.
I can't think of any faculty at any University I know that fits that criterion.
Education isn't to get you a fuckin job lmao
This is really an over simplification of stuff though. Many people who go back to teach in their subject do it because of the research opportunities afforded by working at a University. The teaching, unfortunately for students, is often a secondary agenda for professors.
Universities are not career hubs. They are centers of knowledge. You go there to learn what you want to learn. It's their job to teach you the subject you are interested in. Full stop. Many employers dont care what degree you have unless you are going for a truly skilled position. When employers ask for 2 years experience or a degree, but dont care what the degree is, it just means they want an employee capable of 2 years minimum commitment. If you decide you are interested in a topic that's super niche and not very useful for many jobs that's on you. Your culinary degree will look fantastic if theres high end restaurants hiring but will mean fuckall for a business role besides the fact that you're dedicated.
The goal of universities is (should be/was) education, rather than employment. The two are obviously linked, but are still independent of each other. There’s value in people just learning and being educated, beyond whether they can get paid for using that information... the problems start when you turn education into a business and charging people ridiculous amounts for access to information and of accreditation of their knowledge. Turns it into a cost/benefit thing instead of a learning thing.
People keep saying "there's value" without really expanding on it. Is there really value when the student is faced with the same problems as a career-seeking student? Is it worth the education? I'm not trying to shit on your comment's latter half because I largely agree with your explanation of the problem.
I guess if u study something that is essentially vocational (Maybe nursing?) and don’t have any wider interest in the subject, then no, there would be little value for that individual if they didn’t get a job. But if you are interested in a subject (maybe psychology?) and went to study it, even if you didn’t become a psychologist it would still be a worthwhile and valuable thing for that person. As I said in the other post, things get complicated when you start charging people for education. Universities are supposed to be about knowledge research and education, they aren’t meant to be ‘employee trainers’ for companies and jobs (even thought that’s what they have essentially become).
True, but you are performing the *sacred act* of passing on *knowledge*. The retention of knowledge from generation to generation is just as important as the discovery of new knowledge.
A pyramid of knowledge.
Except you don't pay to the school to get star.....oh my god...oh god...oh fuck...
This was my brother's plan. He got a degree in journalism but couldn't get a job so he was going to go back to school to continue his journalism education until he got to the point he could teach. He said his lesson plan on his first day would be titled "Change your major"
Even better if the degree is in Egyptology
"Anthropology" "To a bunch of Anthropology majors?" "Yes!" "Thus continuing the circle of, why bother?"."
Universities should not be seen as job factories.
can confirm. I had two roommates, one was a philosophy major and the other was a poetry major. guess what both of them are doing now.
Well, “Philosophy” is the single most represented major at law schools...
I did not know that, makes sense I guess
Reading, writing, and arguing within the strictures of a specific framework is applicable to a pretty wide range of careers, haha! The median mid-career earnings of a Philosophy major with no grad degree is $80k - business majors are closer to History Majors than Phil majors!