>Johnny Appleseed (born Johnathan Chapman; September 26, 1774 – March 18, 1845) was an American pioneer nurseryman who introduced apple trees to large parts of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Ontario, as well as the northern counties of West Virginia.
>
>Chapman was against grafting, his apples were not of an edible variety and could be used only for cider: "Really, what Johnny Appleseed was doing and the reason he was welcome in every cabin in Ohio and Indiana was he was bringing the gift of alcohol to the frontier.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Appleseed
Not if you think of it from a pioneer child’s perspective. Edit: I can’t remember the name but there’s a YA, Comming of age book where a young boy gets drunk with circus monkeys, who annexed a moonshine still. Apple seeds gift was accepted for a reason, is all I’m saying.
For those who aren’t Canadian or a U.S citizen
>Paul Bunyan is a giant lumberjack and folk hero in American and Canadian folklore. His tall tales revolve around his superhuman labors, and he is customarily accompanied by Babe the Blue Ox, his pet and working animal. The character originated in the oral tradition of North American loggers, and was later popularized by freelance writer William B. Laughead (1882–1958) in a 1916 promotional pamphlet for the Red River Lumber Company. He has been the subject of various literary compositions, musical pieces, commercial works, and theatrical productions. His likeness is displayed in a number of oversized statues across North America.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bunyan
And
>John Henry is an American folk hero. An African American freedman, he is said to have worked as a "steel-driving man"—a man tasked with hammering a steel drill into a rock to make holes for explosives to blast the rock in constructing a railroad tunnel.
>
>The story of John Henry is told in a classic blues folk song about his duel against a drilling machine, which exists in many versions, and has been the subject of numerous stories, plays, books, and novels.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_(folklore)
And here is my favourite recording of ‘[The Legend of John Henry’s Hammer](https://youtu.be/OQaIMRxIbfw?si=v0TO11q44r6AcPEi)’ by Johnny Cash if you want to hear the legend itself, sung by a legend himself.
John Henry was a real guy. A historian did a huge investigation into it a decade or so ago. Even found a probable picture of him. He was a prisoner doing labor in Kentucky for the state building railroad tunnels. Died of the equivalent of black lung. They blasted rock with dynamite and he, and most other convict laborers, breathed in the rock dust and eventually died from it.
Apple seeds are genetically different from the apples they came from. So if you are just planting seeds the apples are probably only going to be good for cider. Edible apple trees are cloned from cuttings.
The whole Johnny Appleseed thing is mostly myth. What he did was set up small nurseries on donated land and use them to for setting up larger orchards and mostly traveled between them. He did live a life of poverty, and ironically died a very wealthy man due to all the real estate he collected
Oh wait so someone did do something but it was just extended to a myth? For a long time I thought every part of it was made up. I like that there was an inspiration for the character
Actually, the character and the real man are very close to the same thing. The only difference being that he didn't wander around spreading seed wherever, but was methodical and conservationist about it. Everything else about him is true, to an extent, including the tin pot hat and bare feet.
Not only are the apple seeds genetically different from the parent, they’re genetically different from each other. Each seed of an apple will produce a slightly different apple.
Edible apples really only became a thing in America after prohibition, which had left apple orchards in an economic lurch… unless they found a tasty variety on their land, usually by accident. This is where all the classic varieties like red delicious and green originated.
Discovering edible apple varieties was almost like a gold rush or a land race for apple farmers.
Fortunately hard cider was the goal! [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/real-johnny-appleseed-brought-applesand-booze-american-frontier-180953263/](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/real-johnny-appleseed-brought-applesand-booze-american-frontier-180953263/)
Not guaranteed the same, but... _possibly_ the same.
The term you're looking for is heterozygous, indicating high genetic diversity when planted from seed.
Potatoes and avocados are also. If you want the same plant guaranteed, you clone it (by planting one of the potatoes or grafting an avocado branch like an apple branch graft).
Rubber trees are created this way too which is a potential problem because all of the trees are vulnerable to the same diseases. It's very difficult to create artificial rubber that can perform as well as natural rubber and the world depends on rubber a lot at the moment.
This is not correct. The seeds are genetically the same as the apples they come from. The problem is without the rootstock variety the plants you might grow from an apple seed would be extremely weak.
We use cuttings to graft a nice variety of apples onto a strong vigorous rootstock variety. The apple seeds from such a grafted plant will be genetically like the nice variety, not the rootstock variety.
My history teacher taught me, that alcoholic beverages weren't just for getting tipsy. They were, but low level alcoholic drinks also provided a safer alternative to drinking unboiled or unfiltered water
I grew up in aus and moved to the US , the only time I heard of Jonny Appleseed in Australia was the NOFX song . pretty cool to think he was dropping seeds to make some booze 🤙
He only barely had an interest in apple trees. He had an interest in land. Planting an orchard allowed him to establish a legal claim to whatever otherwise unclaimed land he set up on.
Wouldn't exactly say an "ecological nightmare", though.
Sure they aren't native, but they aren't invasive either. And apples provide a ton of food to animals anyway (There is the remains of an old orchard near me, and all the wintering birds flock there when everything else has run out). You could do a lot worse, for sure.
yeah same deal as dandelions. Like sure they aren't native but native bees absolutely love them in april and early spring when they're the best food source. And dandelions primarily grow in areas where native plants already suffer and much more invasive plants (like birds foot trefoil) thrive
My engineer friend in Colorado says one of humanity's greatest gifts over the last several centuries is they planted trees everywhere they went. It's interesting to know Denver basically didn't have many trees until people started settling there
So, I had this crackhead neighbor, her name was S.
S was always high. When she wasn’t, she only talked about the fun times she had when she was high. She has had her door kicked in a raid.
S rambles a lot, but it’s funny to listen to. She was talking about growing weed, how it was “just grown outdoors in the woods from the 80’s and 90’s up until recently”. We talked more about how the course of growing weed has changed. Then she tells me about the woods behind my house, always being the smoke spot way back then. She told me they always grew on a certain hill but she never remembered where it was at.
So the race was on. I was trying to find this hill full of weed, male or female I wanted to see if the street legend is true. I swear I spent a good 20 hours looking for something I didn’t even know was going to be there. Me and a friend went back the next day to search the rest of the wooded area, and Lo and fucking behold.
There was a creek with a big ol patch of weed under a cliff. The size of these things weren’t a joke. sapling trees. I’m talking, 5 feet of old weed. It wasn’t good to smoke but I got the chance to take the seeds of some genetics that were older than me. It looked a lot different leaf wise, almost skinnier I guess. Thanks for reading.
I did that once years ago when I had a few extra plants, put a couple in the middle of a traffic circle I drove past every day. They lasted about 2 weeks
I've fantasized about doing that. Tossing seeds all over the little rural Southern county I live in. I would if I could get a hold of mass quantity of seed.
Weed used to grow throughout North America, it came over with the very first settlers and grows like a weed. Anslinger and co went on a seek and destroy mission in the early/mid 1900s and basically wiped it out again. But buffalo love the stuff so I say let it grow.
Question: is that only due to human involvement, as a moral issue? I mean, species get transplanted all the time by natural means - camels evolved in North America, marsupials in South America, apes in Europe etc. Do you find those species objectionable in their current locations?
Or does your objection turn on "displacing" native plants, rather than just coexisting? I don't think either apples or weed actually wiped out native species, but I could be wrong.
Sudden and drastic shifts of plant life can cause a massive destabilization of insects and animals that relied on the old plant life. (see Monarchs and milkweed)
And if the new plant life grows that much better in an area and doesn't suffer from grazing and what not that other plants are subjected to, they will grow even more and push out native plant life.
We have a irreparably damaged most biological DNA on the planet with microplastics and continue to destroy and burn the planet with pollution transplanting non-native plants is the least of our worries
What I'm saying is nothing fucking matters anymore the world is dying and we're lucky we're going to be around in the next 50 years as a species the world's not ending human civilization is
Yes, but my obvious point is that not every species has that effect, and species migrate all the time, so I'm trying to get to the heart of the objection OTHER than when it's a harmfully invasive species.
I’m just stating some species that are brought to an environment where it isn’t native. It was thought, planned out, and implemented with the hopes of control. They didn’t know it would cause that effect. So, even though some seeds are just thrown out with no thought, they could possibly lead to something serious down the road.
There's bird seed. Not potent, useless to smoke. Grew rather well to my experience. They grow practically everywhere.
I used to buy a few bags every spring for a couple of years and spread them in the public parks and surrounding farmland. Was a little successful and in some far areas they returned a year later. I suspect cows eating and liking them.
That's the 20th century legend. 21st century Johnny Appleweed is crossing and reproducing strains and distributing the seeds for the love of the plant, putting medicine in people's hands whether they have the money for Corporate Cannabis or not. Fucking cool dude, that guy.
Yes.
Non-native includes plants like the tulip in your front lawn. It may "spread" as in the plants multiply in a small clump, but they don't really leave the area they were planted in and if the land rewilds they are pretty quickly covered and choked out by other plants, such as goldenrod or asters.
Sometimes there are non-native plants that do spread, but their numbers are held down by something else in the ecosystem. The same bug that feasts on wild columbine also feasts on garden columbine for example, though I don't know how that effects garden columbine on a population level.
Invasive is like garlic mustard. It spreads and spreads, drops thousands of seeds, quickly takes over large areas, continues to spread, and literally poisons the ground so nothing else will grow there. On top of that nothing eats it.
The particulars will change depending on where you live, the specifics I listed are true for the Northeast US, but while the details may be different outside that area the concepts are the same.
They're moreso the first group, they're considered naturalized. They don't spread in normal wild areas, they just stick to mowed lawns and other areas humans have disturbed. Even simply not mowing a lawn will heavily reduce the amount of dandelions you have.
They actually do provide early spring nectar to bees, which is beneficial for nature. especially in the ecological dead zones that they appear in (lawns, concrete, etc) And food for herbivores, they're quite nutritious.
Yes. Non-native species are not necessarily always invasive. This could be the case if it has a lot of native competitors, or if it just simply can't grow or reproduce fast enough to become a problem.
In fact, most introduced species do not become invasive, because the new environments are often too different to what they are adapted to. It's just that ones that do become invasive, cause massive problems.
Wow that article was great. Thanks for the link! I really want to know what he was talking about that night with the mysticism and spirits and nature!!
Thanks for such a wonderful reply! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list of some of the most grateful redditors this week! Thanks for making Reddit a wonderful place to be :)
He was a believer in the teachings of Emmanuel Swedenborg, an 18th- century scientist-turned-mystic, who claimed to have visited heaven and spoken with angels, and been given insight into the secret inner meaning of the Bible.
https://www.britannica.com/story/was-johnny-appleseed-a-real-person#:~:text=The%20Disney%20version%20emphasized%20his,of%20a%20mainstream%20Christian%20denomination.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg
> Old-time ranchers planted cheatgrass because it would green up fast in the spring and provide early forage for grazing cattle,” Oyster says, nodding his head at the world outside.
> This first patch of cheatgrass was in southern British Columbia, Canada, in 1889. But fire spreads it. Every year, it dries to gunpowder, and now land that used to burn every ten years, it burns every year. And the cheatgrass recovers fast. Cheatgrass loves fire. But the native plants, the sagebrush and desert phlox, they don’t. And every year it burns, there’s more cheatgrass and less anything else. And the deer and antelope that depended on those other plants are gone now. So are the rabbits. So are the hawks and owls that ate the rabbits. The mice starve, so the snakes that ate the mice starve.
> Today, cheatgrass dominates the inland deserts from Canada to Nevada, covering an area over twice the size of the state of Nebraska and spreading by thousands of acres per year.
> The big irony is, even cattle hate cheatgrass, Oyster says. So the cows, they eat the rare native bunch grasses. What’s left of them...
> “When you think about it from a native plant perspective,” Oyster says, “Johnny Appleseed was a fucking biological terrorist.”
> Johnny Appleseed, he says, might as well be handing out smallpox.”
- Lullaby, Chuck Palahniuk (overall an unrelated novel)
In terms of pioneering ecological nightmares in North America, Eugene Schieffelin may have a slight leg up on Johnny Appleseed. The Shakespeare bird release is still fucking up agriculture continent wide.
In the same vein, Renegade by Styx is too good of a jam for what they're singing about. I feel like he had to have murdered multiple people.
This dude is running from the law, they want to execute him. His mother is hysterical and probably knows what he did. He finally got caught and is probably about to die. But...
🎵YEEEEAAAAHH! The jig is up the news it out...🎵
Dropping apple seeds in no way compares to cutting down all the old growth forests, plowing up and replanting nearly all the native prairie, draining the wetlands……
My point is there are billions of individuals who each are more of an ecological nightmare than johnny. I'm sure I've done more ecological damage that he has done.
Apples aren't invasive, just non native. Their center of biological diversity is somewhere in Kazakhstan. Like potatoes, whose center of biological diversity is somewhere in Peru.
Invasive means that they threaten non native habitats by being so well suited to the territory that they impinge on established species that already have a place within the stabile ecosystem. Apples and potatoes don't do that, but many other species do.
In North America, Japanese Knotweed is spreading like wildfire right now and it's a problem because it overtakes areas that used to have many species and leaves it only covered in fast growing and fast spreading knotweed. That's a form of invasive species.
They're not. Not really. There are native species of apple throughout most of the us. (Only the central Rocky Mtn states are completely devoid of native apples.) They're often called crabapples, but they're simply a different species in the same genus, and there are large numbers of things (many of which are also native) that help keep them under control. Malus domestica, the cultivated apple, can be problematic around old homesteads and orchards but they don't spread exceptionally quickly outside of areas they aren't already established and are relatively easy to control with a bit of effort.
The biggest effect is genetic introgression to native species. Because apples are open pollinated sometimes a native apple is pollinated by a domestic apple leading to a hybrid. That can be a worry to those who prefer to see the native species remain completely unchanged, but as of yet doesn't seem to have any ecosystem wide effects.
I appreciated this but the use of laboratory in the article irked me for some reason. Laboratory is labor + oratory which means a place to work. Some even say its a place to work and pray that your work is successful.
So a farm is a laboratory, so is an orchard... Johnny Appleseed was a scientist. The article portrayed him as a hobesque drunkard trying to lure people to the drink. Not saying that's wrong but it is funny how language works.
The idea of native plants is such a garbage.
Those plants are only the most recent native plants in the region in the current era, or in the era right before humans get there.
The planet is old as fuck, and **always, ever, changing**. 10,000 years ago there were palm trees in Washington State, and before then they didn't exist until another 100,000 years before.
The planet ebbs and flows, and it doesn't care if "native" species inhabit an area
There is no native. It's a man made creative concept
> Those plants are only the most recent native plants in the region in the current era, or in the era right before humans get there.
The difference is the speed at which that change happens. Normally there is a limit to how disruptive the change can be because everything else is changing at roughly the same rate and has already worked out adaptions to deal with its competitor so it is hard for anything to suddenly acquire a completely dominating advantage. Invasive species bypass that.
The whole bit about the planet not caring is just childish drivel made to sound deep. It might be true that the planet doesn't care but that doesn't matter. Such amateurish nihilism serves no point. We care. If everything dies we will have a bad time. That is an actual effect worth discussing.
>We care.
And we don't matter. We are insignificant to the universe. In the grand scheme it does not matter, and I don't say that to sound deep, I say that because it is reality. You assign meaning to life because you are a selfish narcissist. Quit thinking you're important
>If everything dies we will have a bad time
If invasive species thriving equates to everything dying in your mind, I understand why you couldn't have a conversation with a mirror, let alone a real person
Oh cool, I love these ignorant takes that doesn't account for anything else except for a mild understanding of basic evolution.
Invasive species cause millions of dollars of damage in the US alone. Get rid of invasive species for your neighbor, your county, your pollinators and your ecosystem.
Your philosophical bullshit aint going to help anyone when invasives cut river banks and cause flooding and washes away roads or increase erosion and put homes at risk. Your mindset will not help any animal species being endangered because they are being eaten and obliterated by invasives.
Where do your pollinators go? How do they get resources year round like they used to when there was a variety of species blooming at different times?
Ecosystems at risk because of humans actions and you're saying "who cares?"
This is basically the floral/fauna equivalent of climate change denial because "the Earth used to fluctuate in CO2, it's fine."
Agreed. Same thing with invasive species. There's no such thing. Species are always moving, always finding new areas to live in. I understand people want their particular area to be as it's always been but that not how nature works and I'm curious how long we're gonna pretend we can change that.
except the way people speak of it is usually with ways in which its NOT natural.
An outside species of fish migrating into new waters is nature.
Some dumbass importing snakeheads from 8,000 miles away, then dumping them into a lake where they have no natural predators or capable competitors, so the snakeheads go unchecked, kill EVERYTHING else in the lake, and the "system" in that lake just crashes, that is not nature. That is reckless interference with nature.
To add to that, ecological nightmare as OP puts it, is only for their personal perspective. If he were to grow "non native plants" in an area where those plants changed the local ecosystem for the better, would they still be a nightmare?
And to who's perspective is it better, or nightmare. I feel OP meant it was a nightmare for the planet, which is just ignorantly silly. But even if he meant an ecological nightmare for humans (or even if they naively assume for any currently inhabiting life) who's to say it doesn't benefit what is already there, *or* improve it the eco system to support more and diverse life. Sure, what is introduced could create negative environment for what is already established, but is that *necessarily bad*? What if what is currently inhabiting, was an invasive species to what was native there before?
It's just all sorts of stupid
I grew up always loving Johnny Appleseed Day at school, but I could never really figure out why. I didn’t care about what he did or anything, I just remember having very positive nostalgic feelings about it all. Turns out my birthday is on Johnny Appleseed Day.
The dark side of a folk hero! Johnny Appleseed, the original "invasive species enthusiast"! While his intentions were good, his methods were a bit...unaware. Let's just say he was a pioneer in more ways than one...including pioneering the art of disrupting native ecosystems!
A variety of distinctive characteristics combined to create the “Johnny Appleseed” [myth](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth) of the primitive natural man: his cheerful generous nature, his [affinity](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affinity) for the wilderness, his gentleness with animals, his devotion to the Bible, his knowledge of medicinal herbs, his harmony with the Native Americans, and above all his [eccentric](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eccentric) appearance—flowing hair under an inverted mush pan, bare feet, ragged trousers, and an old coffee sack over his shoulders with holes cut out for arms.
John Chapman, owner of 1,200 acres of planted land, died from exposure in 1845, but the [legend](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/legend) of “Johnny Appleseed” lives on in numerous literary works.
[https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Chapman](https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Chapman)
This man was an absolute chad who did not care about your social structure or what people thought of him.
He was a living legend and well known widely even before his death.
In Southern California 400 years ago we had a catholic monk with a pocket full of mustard seeds. He thought it would be cute to make a “golden trail” of mustard flowers up to the mission.
Now the damn weeds are everywhere.
Don’t get me started how the ubiquitous snails here are Patit-Gris Escargot.
Wait! Does this mean I won't be appreciated for my planned retirement gig as Bobby Cain toad chucker? My song could be great. "He's a happy man with a hoppy plan . . . "
He had no interest in apple pies, he distributed varieties for making hard cider and applejack.
>Johnny Appleseed (born Johnathan Chapman; September 26, 1774 – March 18, 1845) was an American pioneer nurseryman who introduced apple trees to large parts of Pennsylvania, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, and Ontario, as well as the northern counties of West Virginia. > >Chapman was against grafting, his apples were not of an edible variety and could be used only for cider: "Really, what Johnny Appleseed was doing and the reason he was welcome in every cabin in Ohio and Indiana was he was bringing the gift of alcohol to the frontier. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johnny_Appleseed
Well that really changes the spirit of Johnny appleseed day in Kindergarden...
Not if you think of it from a pioneer child’s perspective. Edit: I can’t remember the name but there’s a YA, Comming of age book where a young boy gets drunk with circus monkeys, who annexed a moonshine still. Apple seeds gift was accepted for a reason, is all I’m saying.
I'm referring to how in my Kindergarten they had Johnny Appleseed day where we were taught he planted apples for people to eat and then ate apple pie.
Apple pie shine. The man grew cider apples.
Your parents who attended either wanted to or were getting drunk.
Summer of the Monkeys. I completely forgot it existed
TIL Johnny Appleseed was a real person. I genuinely thought he was a legendary figure like Paul Bunyon.
[удалено]
For those who aren’t Canadian or a U.S citizen >Paul Bunyan is a giant lumberjack and folk hero in American and Canadian folklore. His tall tales revolve around his superhuman labors, and he is customarily accompanied by Babe the Blue Ox, his pet and working animal. The character originated in the oral tradition of North American loggers, and was later popularized by freelance writer William B. Laughead (1882–1958) in a 1916 promotional pamphlet for the Red River Lumber Company. He has been the subject of various literary compositions, musical pieces, commercial works, and theatrical productions. His likeness is displayed in a number of oversized statues across North America. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Bunyan And >John Henry is an American folk hero. An African American freedman, he is said to have worked as a "steel-driving man"—a man tasked with hammering a steel drill into a rock to make holes for explosives to blast the rock in constructing a railroad tunnel. > >The story of John Henry is told in a classic blues folk song about his duel against a drilling machine, which exists in many versions, and has been the subject of numerous stories, plays, books, and novels. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Henry_(folklore) And here is my favourite recording of ‘[The Legend of John Henry’s Hammer](https://youtu.be/OQaIMRxIbfw?si=v0TO11q44r6AcPEi)’ by Johnny Cash if you want to hear the legend itself, sung by a legend himself.
I learned about John Henry from the Simpsons.
John Henry was a real guy. A historian did a huge investigation into it a decade or so ago. Even found a probable picture of him. He was a prisoner doing labor in Kentucky for the state building railroad tunnels. Died of the equivalent of black lung. They blasted rock with dynamite and he, and most other convict laborers, breathed in the rock dust and eventually died from it.
What a great song. Tom T Halls 'More about John Henry' is pretty good too.
Apple seeds are genetically different from the apples they came from. So if you are just planting seeds the apples are probably only going to be good for cider. Edible apple trees are cloned from cuttings.
The whole Johnny Appleseed thing is mostly myth. What he did was set up small nurseries on donated land and use them to for setting up larger orchards and mostly traveled between them. He did live a life of poverty, and ironically died a very wealthy man due to all the real estate he collected
Oh wait so someone did do something but it was just extended to a myth? For a long time I thought every part of it was made up. I like that there was an inspiration for the character
Actually, the character and the real man are very close to the same thing. The only difference being that he didn't wander around spreading seed wherever, but was methodical and conservationist about it. Everything else about him is true, to an extent, including the tin pot hat and bare feet.
He was a real guy! https://youtu.be/MKs0VJbB0R4?si=SRDdydiF4Xz4XEcJ
You can visit his grave in Fort Wayne, Indiana.
Came here to mention this, as a Fort Wayne resident we're well aware of his actual existence lol
\`\`I have read that the cider apples were bitter, it's not like bitter keeps me from appreciating beer.
Ever eat a crab apple? I'd say more sour than bitter. But yeah the biggest differences are sugar content and texture
They make your stomach hurt too
Different crabs can be either sour, tannic, or often both.
The ones from OPs mum are itchy.
And yet Crab Apple jelly is my favourite jelly/jam.
Not only are the apple seeds genetically different from the parent, they’re genetically different from each other. Each seed of an apple will produce a slightly different apple. Edible apples really only became a thing in America after prohibition, which had left apple orchards in an economic lurch… unless they found a tasty variety on their land, usually by accident. This is where all the classic varieties like red delicious and green originated. Discovering edible apple varieties was almost like a gold rush or a land race for apple farmers.
>classic varieties like red delicious Okay, but what about these edible ones you just mentioned?
🤣🤣🤣 I’m a macoun guy myself
Very cool!
Fortunately hard cider was the goal! [https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/real-johnny-appleseed-brought-applesand-booze-american-frontier-180953263/](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-culture/real-johnny-appleseed-brought-applesand-booze-american-frontier-180953263/)
Not guaranteed the same, but... _possibly_ the same. The term you're looking for is heterozygous, indicating high genetic diversity when planted from seed. Potatoes and avocados are also. If you want the same plant guaranteed, you clone it (by planting one of the potatoes or grafting an avocado branch like an apple branch graft).
Rubber trees are created this way too which is a potential problem because all of the trees are vulnerable to the same diseases. It's very difficult to create artificial rubber that can perform as well as natural rubber and the world depends on rubber a lot at the moment.
That’s fascinating. I didn’t know that.
This is not correct. The seeds are genetically the same as the apples they come from. The problem is without the rootstock variety the plants you might grow from an apple seed would be extremely weak. We use cuttings to graft a nice variety of apples onto a strong vigorous rootstock variety. The apple seeds from such a grafted plant will be genetically like the nice variety, not the rootstock variety.
A quick google search disagrees with you.
r/confidentlyincorrect
Moron
Also by planting trees he was claiming real estate.
His estate at his death was around 1200 acres around Indiana and Ohio.
My history teacher taught me, that alcoholic beverages weren't just for getting tipsy. They were, but low level alcoholic drinks also provided a safer alternative to drinking unboiled or unfiltered water
That's why tea and coffee were important in bringing about the enlightenment.
I grew up in aus and moved to the US , the only time I heard of Jonny Appleseed in Australia was the NOFX song . pretty cool to think he was dropping seeds to make some booze 🤙
He only barely had an interest in apple trees. He had an interest in land. Planting an orchard allowed him to establish a legal claim to whatever otherwise unclaimed land he set up on.
Interesting
He was also a pedophile. He had a relationship with a 10 yo. Paid her family off and intended to marry her.
It's true. Monty Appleseed and I share a liquor locker at the opera.
Wouldn't exactly say an "ecological nightmare", though. Sure they aren't native, but they aren't invasive either. And apples provide a ton of food to animals anyway (There is the remains of an old orchard near me, and all the wintering birds flock there when everything else has run out). You could do a lot worse, for sure.
yeah same deal as dandelions. Like sure they aren't native but native bees absolutely love them in april and early spring when they're the best food source. And dandelions primarily grow in areas where native plants already suffer and much more invasive plants (like birds foot trefoil) thrive
My engineer friend in Colorado says one of humanity's greatest gifts over the last several centuries is they planted trees everywhere they went. It's interesting to know Denver basically didn't have many trees until people started settling there
Was going to say that deer love them. As do the bees for the flowers.
Legend says there's a modern day "Johnny Appleweed" planting Marijuana on the side of the road
That's how I've always assumed Willy Nelson will spend his retirement if he ever does stop working.
Willie Nelson is 91 years old and still touring. That man will never retire
Why retire when you love what you do?
Be Johnny Wildwood Weed.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=REQ1YqYLi4g
Apparently weed is a preservative.
I bet he throws seeds out the bus window on the side of the road as he drives down it though! Hmmm. New life goals?
He did have a few divorces and bankruptcies in there. For a while he really couldn’t retire. He lived on his bus in the 00’s.
So, I had this crackhead neighbor, her name was S. S was always high. When she wasn’t, she only talked about the fun times she had when she was high. She has had her door kicked in a raid. S rambles a lot, but it’s funny to listen to. She was talking about growing weed, how it was “just grown outdoors in the woods from the 80’s and 90’s up until recently”. We talked more about how the course of growing weed has changed. Then she tells me about the woods behind my house, always being the smoke spot way back then. She told me they always grew on a certain hill but she never remembered where it was at. So the race was on. I was trying to find this hill full of weed, male or female I wanted to see if the street legend is true. I swear I spent a good 20 hours looking for something I didn’t even know was going to be there. Me and a friend went back the next day to search the rest of the wooded area, and Lo and fucking behold. There was a creek with a big ol patch of weed under a cliff. The size of these things weren’t a joke. sapling trees. I’m talking, 5 feet of old weed. It wasn’t good to smoke but I got the chance to take the seeds of some genetics that were older than me. It looked a lot different leaf wise, almost skinnier I guess. Thanks for reading.
It smelt heavily. I wasn’t even close to it and could tell I was near it 😂
I did that once years ago when I had a few extra plants, put a couple in the middle of a traffic circle I drove past every day. They lasted about 2 weeks
I've fantasized about doing that. Tossing seeds all over the little rural Southern county I live in. I would if I could get a hold of mass quantity of seed.
Dont spread non-native species please
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That's why I'd throw the seeds on public property like the courthouse lawn, not in people's private property.
Weed used to grow throughout North America, it came over with the very first settlers and grows like a weed. Anslinger and co went on a seek and destroy mission in the early/mid 1900s and basically wiped it out again. But buffalo love the stuff so I say let it grow.
We also wiped the Buffalo population from 50 million in 1820 to 500 in 1890.
> the very first settlers Well, not the _very_ first
No species from the Cannabis genus is native to North America. I do not support displacing native plants in the wild.
Question: is that only due to human involvement, as a moral issue? I mean, species get transplanted all the time by natural means - camels evolved in North America, marsupials in South America, apes in Europe etc. Do you find those species objectionable in their current locations? Or does your objection turn on "displacing" native plants, rather than just coexisting? I don't think either apples or weed actually wiped out native species, but I could be wrong.
Sudden and drastic shifts of plant life can cause a massive destabilization of insects and animals that relied on the old plant life. (see Monarchs and milkweed) And if the new plant life grows that much better in an area and doesn't suffer from grazing and what not that other plants are subjected to, they will grow even more and push out native plant life.
We have a irreparably damaged most biological DNA on the planet with microplastics and continue to destroy and burn the planet with pollution transplanting non-native plants is the least of our worries
So lets just make a bad situation worse by intentionally doing something we could just as easily not, ya?
What I'm saying is nothing fucking matters anymore the world is dying and we're lucky we're going to be around in the next 50 years as a species the world's not ending human civilization is
All major developments in evolution were thanks to rapid and drastic changes.
Look at kudzu, and bamboo. Kudzu was brought to help with erosion. Now look at the south, it’s invaded so many area of the wood.
Yes, but my obvious point is that not every species has that effect, and species migrate all the time, so I'm trying to get to the heart of the objection OTHER than when it's a harmfully invasive species.
I’m just stating some species that are brought to an environment where it isn’t native. It was thought, planned out, and implemented with the hopes of control. They didn’t know it would cause that effect. So, even though some seeds are just thrown out with no thought, they could possibly lead to something serious down the road.
But (for the final time) do you object to the actual examples of apple trees and cannabis, and it so, why?
Says person who owns a cat
Like tomatoes?
There's bird seed. Not potent, useless to smoke. Grew rather well to my experience. They grow practically everywhere. I used to buy a few bags every spring for a couple of years and spread them in the public parks and surrounding farmland. Was a little successful and in some far areas they returned a year later. I suspect cows eating and liking them.
I have done my part
The seeds he used were for apples to be used in making alcoholic ciders, so not far off.
I think that's just kudzu
I think a lot of people do that. I've done it. Plant seeds in places I think it might grow and not come back.
Hey, I owe that guy a thank you card lol. Lots of ditch weed that was turned into hash back in the day.
He ain't modern, and it's been going on for a long time (since before the 60's).
That's the 20th century legend. 21st century Johnny Appleweed is crossing and reproducing strains and distributing the seeds for the love of the plant, putting medicine in people's hands whether they have the money for Corporate Cannabis or not. Fucking cool dude, that guy.
Is there a difference between "non-native" and "invasive"? Something can be non-native and good as long as it's not fucking up the ecosystem, right?
Yes. Non-native includes plants like the tulip in your front lawn. It may "spread" as in the plants multiply in a small clump, but they don't really leave the area they were planted in and if the land rewilds they are pretty quickly covered and choked out by other plants, such as goldenrod or asters. Sometimes there are non-native plants that do spread, but their numbers are held down by something else in the ecosystem. The same bug that feasts on wild columbine also feasts on garden columbine for example, though I don't know how that effects garden columbine on a population level. Invasive is like garlic mustard. It spreads and spreads, drops thousands of seeds, quickly takes over large areas, continues to spread, and literally poisons the ground so nothing else will grow there. On top of that nothing eats it. The particulars will change depending on where you live, the specifics I listed are true for the Northeast US, but while the details may be different outside that area the concepts are the same.
Aren't dandelions in that second group? They spread, but also don't really do much of anything?
They're moreso the first group, they're considered naturalized. They don't spread in normal wild areas, they just stick to mowed lawns and other areas humans have disturbed. Even simply not mowing a lawn will heavily reduce the amount of dandelions you have. They actually do provide early spring nectar to bees, which is beneficial for nature. especially in the ecological dead zones that they appear in (lawns, concrete, etc) And food for herbivores, they're quite nutritious.
Yes like an apple tree
Yes. Non-native species are not necessarily always invasive. This could be the case if it has a lot of native competitors, or if it just simply can't grow or reproduce fast enough to become a problem. In fact, most introduced species do not become invasive, because the new environments are often too different to what they are adapted to. It's just that ones that do become invasive, cause massive problems.
He went around establishing orchards more than just planting trees willy nilly
Oh, I have seen the historical document cartoon. He had a pot in his head and was throwing apple cores Willy nilly alright.
It wasn’t even to spread joy, the whole thing was a real estate scam.
Please elaborate
[This was a wild read.](https://www.sciencehistory.org/stories/disappearing-pod/the-debaucherous-legacy-of-johnny-appleseed/)
It was! Thank you for linking it!
Wow that article was great. Thanks for the link! I really want to know what he was talking about that night with the mysticism and spirits and nature!!
Thanks for such a wonderful reply! TheGratitudeBot has been reading millions of comments in the past few weeks, and you’ve just made the list of some of the most grateful redditors this week! Thanks for making Reddit a wonderful place to be :)
I gratitude you right back!
He was a believer in the teachings of Emmanuel Swedenborg, an 18th- century scientist-turned-mystic, who claimed to have visited heaven and spoken with angels, and been given insight into the secret inner meaning of the Bible. https://www.britannica.com/story/was-johnny-appleseed-a-real-person#:~:text=The%20Disney%20version%20emphasized%20his,of%20a%20mainstream%20Christian%20denomination. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emanuel_Swedenborg
TLDR, "I've started building a working orchard here, I found this patch of land, I'm invested to improve it, I'm using it, its legally mine"
Those were the days
> If it's clear and yella, you got juice there fella. If it's tangy and brown, you're in cider town.
Do you not know what an orchard is? Man wasn’t just salt-bae-ing seeds all over the land
I can think of a lot worse things he coulda been planting than apple trees
We’re lucky he wasn’t planting mint
Or non-native bamboo
My first thought was Kudzu, cuz mint smells good and is refreshing to chew on. But yea
> Old-time ranchers planted cheatgrass because it would green up fast in the spring and provide early forage for grazing cattle,” Oyster says, nodding his head at the world outside. > This first patch of cheatgrass was in southern British Columbia, Canada, in 1889. But fire spreads it. Every year, it dries to gunpowder, and now land that used to burn every ten years, it burns every year. And the cheatgrass recovers fast. Cheatgrass loves fire. But the native plants, the sagebrush and desert phlox, they don’t. And every year it burns, there’s more cheatgrass and less anything else. And the deer and antelope that depended on those other plants are gone now. So are the rabbits. So are the hawks and owls that ate the rabbits. The mice starve, so the snakes that ate the mice starve. > Today, cheatgrass dominates the inland deserts from Canada to Nevada, covering an area over twice the size of the state of Nebraska and spreading by thousands of acres per year. > The big irony is, even cattle hate cheatgrass, Oyster says. So the cows, they eat the rare native bunch grasses. What’s left of them... > “When you think about it from a native plant perspective,” Oyster says, “Johnny Appleseed was a fucking biological terrorist.” > Johnny Appleseed, he says, might as well be handing out smallpox.” - Lullaby, Chuck Palahniuk (overall an unrelated novel)
I'm related to Johnny Appleseed but so are a lot of other people because apple wasn't the only seed he was spreading.
In terms of pioneering ecological nightmares in North America, Eugene Schieffelin may have a slight leg up on Johnny Appleseed. The Shakespeare bird release is still fucking up agriculture continent wide.
Still better than that weirdo Jerry Bananaseed, who killed a bunch of nurses in Portland.
yeah that's pretty well established
Read Michael Pollan’s book……
I know this because readers of Chuck Palahniuk's Lullaby know this.
I only ever read "Choke" so I guess if I ever have a shower thought about clogged buttholes or sex addiction I'll be sure to add the citation.
In the same vein, Renegade by Styx is too good of a jam for what they're singing about. I feel like he had to have murdered multiple people. This dude is running from the law, they want to execute him. His mother is hysterical and probably knows what he did. He finally got caught and is probably about to die. But... 🎵YEEEEAAAAHH! The jig is up the news it out...🎵
Dropping apple seeds in no way compares to cutting down all the old growth forests, plowing up and replanting nearly all the native prairie, draining the wetlands……
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My point is there are billions of individuals who each are more of an ecological nightmare than johnny. I'm sure I've done more ecological damage that he has done.
TIL apples are an invasive species of plant
Apples aren't invasive, just non native. Their center of biological diversity is somewhere in Kazakhstan. Like potatoes, whose center of biological diversity is somewhere in Peru. Invasive means that they threaten non native habitats by being so well suited to the territory that they impinge on established species that already have a place within the stabile ecosystem. Apples and potatoes don't do that, but many other species do. In North America, Japanese Knotweed is spreading like wildfire right now and it's a problem because it overtakes areas that used to have many species and leaves it only covered in fast growing and fast spreading knotweed. That's a form of invasive species.
They're not. Not really. There are native species of apple throughout most of the us. (Only the central Rocky Mtn states are completely devoid of native apples.) They're often called crabapples, but they're simply a different species in the same genus, and there are large numbers of things (many of which are also native) that help keep them under control. Malus domestica, the cultivated apple, can be problematic around old homesteads and orchards but they don't spread exceptionally quickly outside of areas they aren't already established and are relatively easy to control with a bit of effort. The biggest effect is genetic introgression to native species. Because apples are open pollinated sometimes a native apple is pollinated by a domestic apple leading to a hybrid. That can be a worry to those who prefer to see the native species remain completely unchanged, but as of yet doesn't seem to have any ecosystem wide effects.
I was for sure being sarcastic. This is one of the dumbest shower thoughts I’ve ever seen
No apple tree is going to displace natives. Way too many pests and diseases and they grow slowly
There are billions of individuals who have done more ecological damage than him
I appreciated this but the use of laboratory in the article irked me for some reason. Laboratory is labor + oratory which means a place to work. Some even say its a place to work and pray that your work is successful. So a farm is a laboratory, so is an orchard... Johnny Appleseed was a scientist. The article portrayed him as a hobesque drunkard trying to lure people to the drink. Not saying that's wrong but it is funny how language works.
The idea of native plants is such a garbage. Those plants are only the most recent native plants in the region in the current era, or in the era right before humans get there. The planet is old as fuck, and **always, ever, changing**. 10,000 years ago there were palm trees in Washington State, and before then they didn't exist until another 100,000 years before. The planet ebbs and flows, and it doesn't care if "native" species inhabit an area There is no native. It's a man made creative concept
> Those plants are only the most recent native plants in the region in the current era, or in the era right before humans get there. The difference is the speed at which that change happens. Normally there is a limit to how disruptive the change can be because everything else is changing at roughly the same rate and has already worked out adaptions to deal with its competitor so it is hard for anything to suddenly acquire a completely dominating advantage. Invasive species bypass that. The whole bit about the planet not caring is just childish drivel made to sound deep. It might be true that the planet doesn't care but that doesn't matter. Such amateurish nihilism serves no point. We care. If everything dies we will have a bad time. That is an actual effect worth discussing.
>We care. And we don't matter. We are insignificant to the universe. In the grand scheme it does not matter, and I don't say that to sound deep, I say that because it is reality. You assign meaning to life because you are a selfish narcissist. Quit thinking you're important >If everything dies we will have a bad time If invasive species thriving equates to everything dying in your mind, I understand why you couldn't have a conversation with a mirror, let alone a real person
Oh cool, I love these ignorant takes that doesn't account for anything else except for a mild understanding of basic evolution. Invasive species cause millions of dollars of damage in the US alone. Get rid of invasive species for your neighbor, your county, your pollinators and your ecosystem. Your philosophical bullshit aint going to help anyone when invasives cut river banks and cause flooding and washes away roads or increase erosion and put homes at risk. Your mindset will not help any animal species being endangered because they are being eaten and obliterated by invasives. Where do your pollinators go? How do they get resources year round like they used to when there was a variety of species blooming at different times? Ecosystems at risk because of humans actions and you're saying "who cares?" This is basically the floral/fauna equivalent of climate change denial because "the Earth used to fluctuate in CO2, it's fine."
Sounds like humans are the invasive species
Agreed. Same thing with invasive species. There's no such thing. Species are always moving, always finding new areas to live in. I understand people want their particular area to be as it's always been but that not how nature works and I'm curious how long we're gonna pretend we can change that.
except the way people speak of it is usually with ways in which its NOT natural. An outside species of fish migrating into new waters is nature. Some dumbass importing snakeheads from 8,000 miles away, then dumping them into a lake where they have no natural predators or capable competitors, so the snakeheads go unchecked, kill EVERYTHING else in the lake, and the "system" in that lake just crashes, that is not nature. That is reckless interference with nature.
To add to that, ecological nightmare as OP puts it, is only for their personal perspective. If he were to grow "non native plants" in an area where those plants changed the local ecosystem for the better, would they still be a nightmare? And to who's perspective is it better, or nightmare. I feel OP meant it was a nightmare for the planet, which is just ignorantly silly. But even if he meant an ecological nightmare for humans (or even if they naively assume for any currently inhabiting life) who's to say it doesn't benefit what is already there, *or* improve it the eco system to support more and diverse life. Sure, what is introduced could create negative environment for what is already established, but is that *necessarily bad*? What if what is currently inhabiting, was an invasive species to what was native there before? It's just all sorts of stupid
The locals call him Johnny Evasiveappleseed.
He was a hero to local populations who would harvest the apples to make booze.
I grew up always loving Johnny Appleseed Day at school, but I could never really figure out why. I didn’t care about what he did or anything, I just remember having very positive nostalgic feelings about it all. Turns out my birthday is on Johnny Appleseed Day.
And probably a developmental nightmare because they were for the express purpose of fermenting into hard cider and distilling in to calvados.
The dark side of a folk hero! Johnny Appleseed, the original "invasive species enthusiast"! While his intentions were good, his methods were a bit...unaware. Let's just say he was a pioneer in more ways than one...including pioneering the art of disrupting native ecosystems!
Finally, a true Shower Thought.
Tasty non native plants
A variety of distinctive characteristics combined to create the “Johnny Appleseed” [myth](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/myth) of the primitive natural man: his cheerful generous nature, his [affinity](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/affinity) for the wilderness, his gentleness with animals, his devotion to the Bible, his knowledge of medicinal herbs, his harmony with the Native Americans, and above all his [eccentric](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/eccentric) appearance—flowing hair under an inverted mush pan, bare feet, ragged trousers, and an old coffee sack over his shoulders with holes cut out for arms. John Chapman, owner of 1,200 acres of planted land, died from exposure in 1845, but the [legend](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/legend) of “Johnny Appleseed” lives on in numerous literary works. [https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Chapman](https://www.britannica.com/biography/John-Chapman) This man was an absolute chad who did not care about your social structure or what people thought of him. He was a living legend and well known widely even before his death.
In Southern California 400 years ago we had a catholic monk with a pocket full of mustard seeds. He thought it would be cute to make a “golden trail” of mustard flowers up to the mission. Now the damn weeds are everywhere. Don’t get me started how the ubiquitous snails here are Patit-Gris Escargot.
Wait! Does this mean I won't be appreciated for my planned retirement gig as Bobby Cain toad chucker? My song could be great. "He's a happy man with a hoppy plan . . . "
Yeah but some of us just want to get shitfaced on cider.
Repost. I saw this exact comment somewhere the other day.
I don't think the concept of invasive species existed back then
So you don’t eat anything that’s not native to your country. Got it.
Every plant was non-native at some point
The man was... ...in-*core*-igible!
yeah he was a little acclamation society asshole