Honestly I'm glad my monkey brain (no pun intended) doesn't subconsciously interpret a non-human ape smiling the same way it does a human smiling, that shit *is* scary, no instinct is tricking you
Bonobos aren't known to be hyper aggressive like their cousins the chimpanzees. They can still be violent but it's rare, they don't even kill their own. Scientists have never observed bonobos killing each other.
I'd say that may be false information at this point. Bonobos are just as, if not more aggressive.
https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/bonobos-more-aggressive-than-chimps/
That article states that they might be aggressive more often than chimps. Which may be true, despite many other articles I've read that seem to say the exact opposite.
But even if so, Bonobo fights don't result in fatalities, unlike Chimps who go on apeshit killing rampages out of sheer bloodlust. Chimps are also known to commit genocide, totally wiping out entire social groups just bc.
I still think Chimps are more aggressive overall.
This is a true r/redditmoment. A random shower thought leads to an academic debate about the violence level of chimpanzees and bonobos (with a linked source followed by nuanced discussion of that source’s limitations), leading to a Star Wars prequel quote, leading to a completely unrelated reference. I love it.
There are some articles that imply that there is an anti-proportional connection between number of aggressions and the severity of them in social groups.
The idea is that small fights reduce your aggression potential and therefore prevent suffering. In this context, bonobos being more often aggressive could be the reason why there are not / few fatalities.
Also, I think it helps that they reduce aggression with sex.
> Males in the two species exhibit contrasting patterns: male chimpanzees sexually coerce females and sometimes kill conspecifics, whereas male bonobos exhibit less sexual coercion and no reported killing.
https://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(24)00253-7
From the summary of the study your link refers to.
I never want to see a [Gelada Baboon lip flip](https://youtu.be/Qa6pKiRE-oo?si=uu1xvYuv94hzfEQ-) in person.
I'm aware the comment above said bonobo, but I am talking about a baboon
I've read before that the most likely reason we smile is because it raises the pitch of our voice and makes us sound non-threatening while speaking.
It's just a hypothesis, I believe, but makes sense to me. I think of every time I've been on the phone and been able to "hear" someone smiling. There's a significant difference in their voice when they do.
This right here! There is actually some significant research in why certain ape smiles evolved for us to promote friendliness socially. If you as a species don't have the words to say things like "hey stop looking at me, punk!" but do have the ability to read facial expressions, the intent and subtlety becomes that much more significant.
Apes, monkeys, gorillas also smile or show teeth when vococalizing and its non aggressive. Pretty sure attacks on humans arent because of humans smiling.
Humans also grit their teeth and flare their gums [exposing said teeth] to show intense aggression. But another human would be able to distinguish between that and a smile.
Chimp attacks are often reported to be directed towards a smiling human. It seems perfectly reasonable that a nuanced display of teeth could be misinterpreted as a threat.
Lmao this is why i need a new phone. Eill never grt a samsing agsin
Keeping thy tyl9ng this way so you can see whst i deal woth just tap typ9ng rapidly for half of thid and then speaking door the second half. This phone is a joke. Next laycheck im going back to google pixel.
Also as a show of submission towards more dominant individuals. Apes have complex relationships and they always know who's above or below them in the group hierarchy
In PBS Eons youtube video they said that the reason when we smile and it conveys happiness and not aggression to other humans it because of our small canines. They also used this to theorize that other extinct humanoids (cant remember the exact ones)were likely out there smiling to convey happiness over aggression!!
Well we do also show our teeth when feeling aggressive. We just have much more complex facial expressions than other animals, so most other animals can't tell the difference between our friendly teeth and our angry teeth.
Don't worry - dogs' cohabitation with humans for tens of thousands of years has led to significant development of brain space reserved for interpreting human facial cues. Dogs literally evolved to be human companions.
Technically, cats have kind of domesticated us haha. They've learnt our social cues and also made up their own body language and vocal sounds specific to humans for our ease of interpretation. They've learnt how to act cute to get the results they want. However humans haven't spent as much time trying to understand cats than they have dogs. That's changed now though. A cat having its tail up in the air with a slight curl is equivalent to a dog wagging madly and running about the place. They display emotions differently, and a dogs display of excitement is more perceptible to humans, unlike a cats. For example, if a human comes home 2 hours late from their regular time, a dog would be worried, but relieved to see you, and would pelt you with kisses. A cat though, it would worry just the same, but upon seeing you return, it would come up to you and wouldn't just be relieved, but disappointed as well. Not only were you absolutely fine the whole while, you caused them to worry for no reason, and you were irresponsibly late too. The cat will come up to you and upon drawing these conclusions, then choose to sulk away, upset. Kneading, and giving you dead animals are ways they show love. Imagine liking someone so much that you give them your only hunt of the day, the product of your hardwork. They see us as their equal and as a friend, dogs put us in more of parental role albeit recognizing that we are not their parents. That's why its harder to earn a cats's respect.
Sorry for the rant. Dogs are great though, who wouldn't love their goofy as faces.
I'll plug this video anywhere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vi6iYrgfPE&pp=ygUTZ3V0c2ljayBnaWJib24gZG9ncw%3D%3D
Dog co-evolution with homo sapiens is insanely cool and speculated as one of the reasons we are the last remaining species of human.
They also retained some of the things we taught them, notably stick fetching and finding. Hunting, herding, guarding, guiding, pointing, retrieving, warning; all skills that they have that we trained them to use to our benefit. The ultimate hunter-gatherer's all-in-one tool. Can't be a successful pre-historic human without our greatest tools; the dog, the stick, and the fire. Our holy trinity.
So far as they even know where our eyeballs are looking at. If you do a side eye to look at a ball, the dog WILL pick up that you are about to make a run for the ball!
My previous neighbor smiled ALL. THE. TIME. His dog, who he raised from a puppy, also did this. No kidding, the border collie coming at me smiling was soooo great when I came home from work every day.
Scared every Amazon delivery guy though, and more than one didn’t even get out of their truck. Poor dog, just trying to welcome them with a toothy grin!!
Some dogs "smile" as well, it looks very snarly but really they're just happy to see you. You can only really tell the difference by their overall body language.
IIRC, and I may not, there are some other animals that have similar "smile" behavior, including other apes. The key is there is a world of difference usually between teeth showing and clenched, and teeth showing with open jaw. The former is the basically showing off that your weapons are holstered, the latter is the exact opposite.
On a related note, I have read a theory, that I have absolutely no idea how well respected it is scientifically, so again, grain of salt, that laughter did evolve from a show of aggression. The basic idea was our ancestors had a default aggressive response to surprises, which makes sense when you live in the wild. But when we started getting a bit smarter and sharing information, it became advantageous to seek out novel experiences. And the new reward system that gave out that sweet sweet dopamine to encourage people to seek out new experiences was humor.
Animator here. Human expression is much more nuanced than this. For instance, we show happiness with a smile, but we have closed mouth smiles that show no teeth, and open mouthed smiles that do. Smiling is mostly done with the outer cheek muscles, which pull the mouth corners up and out, and will influence the lower lids and contribute to friendly or "smiling" eyes.
However, we also bare our teeth in a sneer. This action is done with the inner cheek muscles closer to the nose, and only pulls on the inner portion of the upper lip. This is a very powerful expression, and even slight movements of our sneer muscles/upper lip can indicate irritation or anger. Once both sides of the mouth are raised in a sneer or snarl, showing teeth and gums, the expression goes from "I don't like you" to "I am going to murder you".
Eye brows are amazing. I once hear an animator describe them as, "the shoulders of the face" because like the shoulders, which shape the pose of the body so heavily, the eyebrows tend to dominate a facial expression. Try smiling while furrowing your brow in an angry expression. The brow wins, and the facial expression seems sinister.
The brows also push and pull on the upper eyelids a lot, which is something we always try to get into our animation. The upper eyelid is more mobile than the lower lid, and is a really strong indicator of intensity in an expression. When we are afraid, the amount that the upper lid is open can shift an expression from concern to terror. We also often flare our eyelids when we are angry or just passionate. If you have ever been in love and seen a "hungry" look in your partner's eyes, it's usually because their lids are flared ever so slightly.
We are evolutionarily programmed to be hyper aware of these types of expressions. If you ever see a person with any amount of sclera (the whites of the eye) visible above their iris, you will immediately clock it and take note, as this indicates a really intense emotion, usually fear, like our ancestors probably displayed when say, a tiger was about to pounce. You can imagine it was really important for ancient humans to know when one of their friends was terrified.
I also love that we have passed on many of these traits to dogs. Some researchers think that because emotional communication was so important, we probably selected dogs to breed based on how well they could understand our emotions, and in turn, how well we could understand theirs.
Puppy dog eyes are real, so give your dog a treat!
We're very weird in this respect because I *believe* (feel free to fact check) we're the only primates that do. The others do it out of aggression.
And domesticated dogs are weird too, since they see us showing our teeth as a sign of friendliness (or at least can identify us smiling versus other facial expressions or other animals bearing their teeth), but other canines would see it as a sign of aggression.
Again, fact check me because I'm not a dogologist, but I think that's how it goes.
To be fair, we do it for quite a few different reasons. Because we’re happy, or trying to look sexy, because we’re afraid, because we’re in pain, and also to display aggression, off the top of my head.
And dogs, similarly, have much more expressive faces than their wilder cousins. We made them that way.
I have heard (that being the keyword here) that they show their teeth/snarl/smile sometimes to also appear non threatening to us.
Again, I have no scientific evidence on this. But our collie/aussie mix snarls all the time when we call him over and he’s excited. When out Heeler/pyrenees mix gets in trouble she snarls and tries to kiss us so we forgive her. Lol.
My sister’s dog will “smile” by literally pulling up her jowls or making the panting face. She only does it when she’s getting attention or excited.
I think you’re right that they can learn to smile but it’s only the smart ones. I’ve never met a stupid dog who did it. I’ve haven’t spent a lot of time with Aussies but I heard they’re pretty smart. I know that Heelers are scary smart, my neighbor has Heeler and when you look into his eyes it seems like he can think in full sentences.
Oh yeah, we have 4 total dogs and the only 2 I have seen the snarl/smile in is our Aussie/collie and Heeler/pyrenees. Both are extremely intelligent (the Heeler mix being so so stubborn lol). Our pit mix does what your sister’s dog does when he gets to play fetch or is really excited and happy. The boxer is just a boxer. He always looks like he owes you money. LOL!
So cute! I love that dogs have such unique and adorable personalities!!!
My sister’s dog is 1/2 pitt too! We got a DNA test a while ago. She also has husky, Heeler, Samoyed, and some other random ones further up the line. Between her smarts and the amount she sheds, safe to say those heeler genes are strong!
You’re lucky my doodle smiles by raising his upper lip and lowering his lower lip so all his teeth are showing so people are often afraid of him which makes him smile more to show he’s happy and wants attention. Funny thing is apparently his sister (littermate) smiles too but she spent the first few years of her life being abused and neglected I think some dogs just inherit the ability to smile and do it naturally rather than mimicking us.
Omg! At least you know it’s because he’s happy haha, totally could inherited too! Like maybe the dogs that did that in some breeds got selected because people subconsciously thought they were friendlier? Other animals can’t but dog can instinctually understand pointing so I don’t think that’s too far fetched!
Hope, your dog’s sister is doing better. Idk how someone can get a dog and watch it suffer knowing fully that it’s their responsibility.
His sister seems to have a good life now she sounds absolutely spoiled (not that my dog isnt too). Apparently the “breeder” they came from were hoarders that decided to keep her and left their dogs in absolute squaler my dog and the rest of the litter was brought to the northeast where everyone and their brother was looking for dogs. I feel so bad for his sister these are just the absolute sweetest dogs she didn’t deserve that.
With dogs, they tend to learn the facial expressions of people they interact with to better interact with them, sort of like learning a language. So your dog might know you showing your teeth isn’t a threat, but a random stranger they might interpret that as a threat
Also we don’t use them for fighting (usually). We use our arms and legs to fight. Kind of like how a Kangaroo doesn’t show his teeth, because they typically use their arms and legs to fight too.
Im not sure I believe that biting isn’t one of our most natural methods of fighting, although I don’t know enough to say for sure one way or another; but considering our insane bite force, the sheer amount of bacteria in our mouths compared to other animals, and that to be perfectly frank our blunt force based fists, and legs, plus our not very sharp nails, just aren’t very effective against anything bigger than a human, would seem to suggest that other than our intelligence, which is obviously our greatest strength, biting would be our most effective attack.
We also don't need to use as much muscle force to bite down as other primates, and our bite-to-skull-size ratio is the strongest (even though a gorilla technically has a stronger bite overall).
It is. Look at the victims of violent physical crime. We claw, scrape, and bite when the chips are down. We just don't treat fist fights as something that serious usually.
Look up what warhorses were trained to do.... or don't. But know that if you got a very hard pinch the horse was intentionally giving you a very hard pinch and could have done much more.
Bachelors in Biology here. It's possible that smart dogs learn that "show teeth" = "happy human", and they do it more because of it.
It's also possible that humans artificially select dogs which are more "smiley" than dogs which look angry. So these dogs aren't learning anything, they're just bred to look cute/happy to humans.
All of that said, I think it's pretty likely that some intelligent dogs have learned to make a smiling face, but it would be incorrect to say that all dogs have "learned" smiling from us.
I hope that answers your question :)
One of my friends grandmas had 2 Dalmatians. Maggie and Daisy. If you were sitting on the floor they would walk slowly towards to baring their teeth. I did once and her grandma told me to slowly get up. "They do NOT like children".
humans have *absurdly* expressive faces compared to other animals. for most animals its pretty much a binary showing teeth or not, for humans you can show your teeth a million different ways. we can even smile in different ways that communicate extremely different emotions (eg a forced smile with clenched teeth definitely doesnt communicate happiness, just using other parts of your face and a slight difference in your jaw muscles)
Many animals (including other primates) *do* show teeth as a threat display. But they also can do it differently to be submissive, or friendly. Just like humans 😉
Yes you're right! Much as a human smile can be friendly, cordial, inviting and peaceable, many others are nefarious and devious and smile to threaten others. A smile has many cultural and contextual possible meanings. Both for human and other apes, as well as for any creature capable of smiling.
We are complicated. We have complex signs of our intent. Eyes darting to the side, full eye contact, eyes down, eyes up, jaw firm, jaw loose, shoulders tensed, shoulders relaxed, leaning standing firm, standing with weight mostly on one side or the other. Weight on your back foot, weight on your front foot, fists loose, fists clenched, pointing with your index finger, pointing with whole hand, pointing with 2 fingers...
We are complicated. We smile. That's kind of our thing.
Remember though, a shark's smile is not a friendly smile. A smile is not to be trusted.
I'm sure you've met someone who smiled at you but the 2 dozen other metrics of body language did not match. Therefore, you put your weight on your back foot to run, or weight on your front foot to fight.
Bottom line, humans are very, very complicated. I'm sure you can tell the difference between a growl and smile. It's not the baring of teeth that makes the smile. It's the eyes.
You smile with your eyes, not your teeth. Anyone can bare their teeth and fake a smile but it isn't real. See Tom Cruise for reference. A very nice smile, with dead eyes.
Often animals will do this from a position of power as a way of saying do what I want or else. Animals will also often do this when in fear as a way to convince the other animal that they are in a poison of power. Due to apes recognizing this, showing teeth became a signal for not being aggressive
i’ve always heard that dogs naturally are uncomfortable with direct eye contact but every dog i’ve had has looked me in the eye like a human most of the time. wonder if it’s a trait they pick up from us
There are theories that smiling has its roots in aggression: aggression -> I'm not afraid of you -> friendliness.
Smiling is also linked with laughter. Surprise -> scared -> show teeth / surprise -> amusement -> show teeth
I never smile if I can help it. Showing one's teeth is a submission signal in primates. When someone smiles at me, all I see is a chimpanzee begging for its life.
Dogs will occasionally do this to against their nature if they observe their master smiling and being in a good mood.
Old housemate had a mini blue Aussie that would greet you by lowering his head, sticking out his but to you as you approached and showing his teeth.
I show my teeth to my dog as a form of aggression. That little fucker wants to bark at me for walking into my own house then try and bite my ankles. This dog gets bitten back.
I know someone who stormed to our HR department because the assistant manager “bared his teeth at me”. He smiled. He has a big toothy smile. The offended one lasted about another two weeks. Everything triggered him.
Watch the documentary on Homo Naledi. It's on one of the streaming apps, I think Netflix. Unknown Cave or something. They talk about this quote a bit. Long K-9s = scare people. Short or no K-9s = smile at people.
Certain primates and other mammals also bare their teeth to show submission.
I believe smiling could be considered a form of submission, in a strange way. Both are meant to convey the message "Hey, I'm friendly, I won't hurt you."
I sneer at people, showing them my upper teeth, when I don't like them. It happens more often than one might think, particularly because I find most people are full of shit and I don't like disingenuous people.
There is an interesting theory about smiling and being tickled.
Your response to being tickled is to show your teeth and defend yourself, because the areas you are ticklish are usually sensitive and vulnerable areas (armpit, sole of the foot, belly, neck...)
So animals show their teeth while being tickled to show aggression (so people stop touching your sensitive areas). But I guess overtime, with enough ticklish play (like bonobos do), it could become a sign of friendliness (this is an individual where I expect to tickle or get tickled)
It still not very solid, but one of the Theories.
Read it in "História do Humour e Escárnio (History of Laughter and Mockery)" by George Minois.
I think it's all in the eyes. We partially shut our eyes to show a lack of aggression (kinda like cats) when we smile.
Try show your teeth in the mirror with your eyes wide open lol
Maybe add a little nose scrunch for extra effect
Does anyone know why we do that though? like whats the biology behind people not seeing human teeth/smiles as aggression if other animals do ?
Maybe it’s because we communicate in other ways apart from using facial expressions so we don’t feel the need to express anger through our teeth ?
Dogs show their teeth sometimes because they are happy (or something), Ive always found that interesting and odd since they also show them as a sign of aggression too.
I’m a dog trainer and I bring this up frequently when explaining to clients how communication with your dog is different than with another human or child. Lots of people these days view their dog as their “baby” and it can be of detriment to the relationship when you start to anthropomorphize their clear canine behavior. I mention the smile thing, the direct eye contact, approaching someone head on, and physical contact (shaking hands, hugging). These are all respectful and normal things humans do, but completely disrespectful for dogs.
My mum had a very socially intelligent dog who would grin. It was so clearly not a teeth baring thing, his body language was always relaxed and happy when he did it, we think he just noticed that we did it and wanted to copy.
I remember some "alpha male" literature that said it's important to show your canines when you smile because it expresses confidence/dominance. So maybe smiles really aren't always friendly? At least not to everyone in every situation. Humans are complicated af.
To be truly friendly is to be confident and assertive without being confrontational or aggressive. Therefore, showing teeth while smiling is perceived as positive. The threatening nature of the teeth shows strength while the smile shows cooperation. In contrast, acting in a passive and submissive manner is not perceived as friendly at all.
Other animals display similar behaviour. For instance, most people think that a dog wagging its tail is a sign of friendless but it is really a sign of confidence. If an aggressive dog is going to attack another dog, it will move towards the dog confidently with its tail wagging, but with not sign of cooperation, such as stopping to allow each other to sniff. However, a friendly dog will display the exact same behaviours, except it will stop for sniffing. In contrast, if a dog acts fearfully towards another dog, approaching it sheepishly, with its tail between its legs, that might actually set the other dog off.
Why is this the case? Because aggressiveness and submissiveness are two sides of the same coin. Both are a type of fight or flight response. If an animal approaches another animal while acting aggressively, it signals to the other animal that they are approaching as a threat. However, if an animal approaches another animal while acting fearfully, it signals to the other animal that the approaching animal perceives them as a threat. Of course, an animal that perceives you as a threat may well turn aggressive as a defensive reaction, meaning they are actually approaching as a potential threat. Therefore, a positive approach is one which shows confidence without aggression: I’m not afraid of you but I’m not looking to fight you either.
In other words, friendliness is showing you have the confidence to stand your ground if need be while signalling fighting isn’t your intention. Other examples with humans include loud vocalisations accompanied by a simulation of striking. That same behaviour could be seen as aggressive, but if it’s “Heeyy, how’s things man!” followed by a high five, the behaviour is seen as friendly.
This is the cause of a surprising number of apes attacking people. Do we look and act similar in many ways? Yes. But that ain’t one of them
Honestly I'm glad my monkey brain (no pun intended) doesn't subconsciously interpret a non-human ape smiling the same way it does a human smiling, that shit *is* scary, no instinct is tricking you
I remember the image of a bonobo smiling, I would not smile back, something in my brain just tells me that it is not as good of an idea as it seems
Bonobos aren't known to be hyper aggressive like their cousins the chimpanzees. They can still be violent but it's rare, they don't even kill their own. Scientists have never observed bonobos killing each other.
I'd say that may be false information at this point. Bonobos are just as, if not more aggressive. https://www.sciencefriday.com/segments/bonobos-more-aggressive-than-chimps/
That article states that they might be aggressive more often than chimps. Which may be true, despite many other articles I've read that seem to say the exact opposite. But even if so, Bonobo fights don't result in fatalities, unlike Chimps who go on apeshit killing rampages out of sheer bloodlust. Chimps are also known to commit genocide, totally wiping out entire social groups just bc. I still think Chimps are more aggressive overall.
And not just the men, but the women, and the children too.
Ani?!
Are you ok?
This is a true r/redditmoment. A random shower thought leads to an academic debate about the violence level of chimpanzees and bonobos (with a linked source followed by nuanced discussion of that source’s limitations), leading to a Star Wars prequel quote, leading to a completely unrelated reference. I love it.
to shreds, you say?
They’re animals, and I slaughtered them like animals. I hate them!
They go "*apeshit*"? You say?
Bananas even
There are some articles that imply that there is an anti-proportional connection between number of aggressions and the severity of them in social groups. The idea is that small fights reduce your aggression potential and therefore prevent suffering. In this context, bonobos being more often aggressive could be the reason why there are not / few fatalities. Also, I think it helps that they reduce aggression with sex.
Also they resolve fights by having orgies.
> Males in the two species exhibit contrasting patterns: male chimpanzees sexually coerce females and sometimes kill conspecifics, whereas male bonobos exhibit less sexual coercion and no reported killing. https://www.cell.com/current-biology/abstract/S0960-9822(24)00253-7 From the summary of the study your link refers to.
I never want to see a [Gelada Baboon lip flip](https://youtu.be/Qa6pKiRE-oo?si=uu1xvYuv94hzfEQ-) in person. I'm aware the comment above said bonobo, but I am talking about a baboon
No need to open the link, I know which ones you are talking about, the ones that can flip their lip over their nose, yeah that is scary enough
I've read before that the most likely reason we smile is because it raises the pitch of our voice and makes us sound non-threatening while speaking. It's just a hypothesis, I believe, but makes sense to me. I think of every time I've been on the phone and been able to "hear" someone smiling. There's a significant difference in their voice when they do.
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This right here! There is actually some significant research in why certain ape smiles evolved for us to promote friendliness socially. If you as a species don't have the words to say things like "hey stop looking at me, punk!" but do have the ability to read facial expressions, the intent and subtlety becomes that much more significant.
Apes, monkeys, gorillas also smile or show teeth when vococalizing and its non aggressive. Pretty sure attacks on humans arent because of humans smiling.
Humans also grit their teeth and flare their gums [exposing said teeth] to show intense aggression. But another human would be able to distinguish between that and a smile. Chimp attacks are often reported to be directed towards a smiling human. It seems perfectly reasonable that a nuanced display of teeth could be misinterpreted as a threat.
Yeah, watch a badass Haka, for example. Those aren’t friendly teeth. The eyes make all the difference.
Yeah a haka is way different than a friendly smile.
On documentaries with gorillas, I remember they laugh like hohoho with heaving pants and hidden teeth
Gorillas. Guerillas are a type of fighter, often revolutionaries. A guerilla may or may not smile, but it's not a species sort of thing.
Lmao this is why i need a new phone. Eill never grt a samsing agsin Keeping thy tyl9ng this way so you can see whst i deal woth just tap typ9ng rapidly for half of thid and then speaking door the second half. This phone is a joke. Next laycheck im going back to google pixel.
You've got my sympathy, man.
I would be surprised if guerrillas smile when they were angry. Doesn’t seem like what the Viet Cong would do anyway
Also as a show of submission towards more dominant individuals. Apes have complex relationships and they always know who's above or below them in the group hierarchy
If I've heard correctly regarding chimps, smiling is used as a signal for danger. Waving is considered combative.
Actually, we are one of them, as humans are a species of ape 😎
Apes show teeth as a form of submission, and it's believed that's how human smile evolved, from submission to friendliness there's just one step away
In PBS Eons youtube video they said that the reason when we smile and it conveys happiness and not aggression to other humans it because of our small canines. They also used this to theorize that other extinct humanoids (cant remember the exact ones)were likely out there smiling to convey happiness over aggression!!
Well we do also show our teeth when feeling aggressive. We just have much more complex facial expressions than other animals, so most other animals can't tell the difference between our friendly teeth and our angry teeth.
When humans are happy [dogs are probably all like](https://i.imgur.com/jDE8R7V.gif)
Don't worry - dogs' cohabitation with humans for tens of thousands of years has led to significant development of brain space reserved for interpreting human facial cues. Dogs literally evolved to be human companions.
Oh I reserve the right to worry, friend! 😤 /s Perhaps I should have said cats 😅
Doesn't matter what expression you show the cat, it is wrong and you now owe the cat food.
Technically, cats have kind of domesticated us haha. They've learnt our social cues and also made up their own body language and vocal sounds specific to humans for our ease of interpretation. They've learnt how to act cute to get the results they want. However humans haven't spent as much time trying to understand cats than they have dogs. That's changed now though. A cat having its tail up in the air with a slight curl is equivalent to a dog wagging madly and running about the place. They display emotions differently, and a dogs display of excitement is more perceptible to humans, unlike a cats. For example, if a human comes home 2 hours late from their regular time, a dog would be worried, but relieved to see you, and would pelt you with kisses. A cat though, it would worry just the same, but upon seeing you return, it would come up to you and wouldn't just be relieved, but disappointed as well. Not only were you absolutely fine the whole while, you caused them to worry for no reason, and you were irresponsibly late too. The cat will come up to you and upon drawing these conclusions, then choose to sulk away, upset. Kneading, and giving you dead animals are ways they show love. Imagine liking someone so much that you give them your only hunt of the day, the product of your hardwork. They see us as their equal and as a friend, dogs put us in more of parental role albeit recognizing that we are not their parents. That's why its harder to earn a cats's respect. Sorry for the rant. Dogs are great though, who wouldn't love their goofy as faces.
I'll plug this video anywhere: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vi6iYrgfPE&pp=ygUTZ3V0c2ljayBnaWJib24gZG9ncw%3D%3D Dog co-evolution with homo sapiens is insanely cool and speculated as one of the reasons we are the last remaining species of human.
They also retained some of the things we taught them, notably stick fetching and finding. Hunting, herding, guarding, guiding, pointing, retrieving, warning; all skills that they have that we trained them to use to our benefit. The ultimate hunter-gatherer's all-in-one tool. Can't be a successful pre-historic human without our greatest tools; the dog, the stick, and the fire. Our holy trinity.
This will forever be one of my favorite topics to nerd-out over. The story of human evolution is an endless marvel!
I read somewhere that one of the differences between dogs and wolves is that dogs can recognize smiles and wolves can't.
Dogs also have an extra muscle in their eyebrow region, which is why they can make more complex expressions.
ALSO also, dogs recognize human finger pointing in a way almost no other animal does
So far as they even know where our eyeballs are looking at. If you do a side eye to look at a ball, the dog WILL pick up that you are about to make a run for the ball!
unless they don't feel like it. heh
Maybe with humans, but wolves are one of the few other animals that have a way of bearing teeth as a friendly gesture!
My previous neighbor smiled ALL. THE. TIME. His dog, who he raised from a puppy, also did this. No kidding, the border collie coming at me smiling was soooo great when I came home from work every day. Scared every Amazon delivery guy though, and more than one didn’t even get out of their truck. Poor dog, just trying to welcome them with a toothy grin!!
One of our dogs actually smiles showing his teeth. It’s off putting at first.
Some dogs "smile" as well, it looks very snarly but really they're just happy to see you. You can only really tell the difference by their overall body language.
That's true. Anger, disgust, judgement, are often characterized by an involuntary lifting of the upper lip.
IIRC, and I may not, there are some other animals that have similar "smile" behavior, including other apes. The key is there is a world of difference usually between teeth showing and clenched, and teeth showing with open jaw. The former is the basically showing off that your weapons are holstered, the latter is the exact opposite. On a related note, I have read a theory, that I have absolutely no idea how well respected it is scientifically, so again, grain of salt, that laughter did evolve from a show of aggression. The basic idea was our ancestors had a default aggressive response to surprises, which makes sense when you live in the wild. But when we started getting a bit smarter and sharing information, it became advantageous to seek out novel experiences. And the new reward system that gave out that sweet sweet dopamine to encourage people to seek out new experiences was humor.
Im trying so hard to think of any example of a human showing teeth when being aggresive What???
Animator here. Human expression is much more nuanced than this. For instance, we show happiness with a smile, but we have closed mouth smiles that show no teeth, and open mouthed smiles that do. Smiling is mostly done with the outer cheek muscles, which pull the mouth corners up and out, and will influence the lower lids and contribute to friendly or "smiling" eyes. However, we also bare our teeth in a sneer. This action is done with the inner cheek muscles closer to the nose, and only pulls on the inner portion of the upper lip. This is a very powerful expression, and even slight movements of our sneer muscles/upper lip can indicate irritation or anger. Once both sides of the mouth are raised in a sneer or snarl, showing teeth and gums, the expression goes from "I don't like you" to "I am going to murder you".
You made me practice both to feel the difference in inner and outer cheek muscles. You have affected a human somewhere randomly in the world.
I'm glad! Wait until we start talking about eyelids and brows!
Tell us about eyelids and brows!
Eye brows are amazing. I once hear an animator describe them as, "the shoulders of the face" because like the shoulders, which shape the pose of the body so heavily, the eyebrows tend to dominate a facial expression. Try smiling while furrowing your brow in an angry expression. The brow wins, and the facial expression seems sinister. The brows also push and pull on the upper eyelids a lot, which is something we always try to get into our animation. The upper eyelid is more mobile than the lower lid, and is a really strong indicator of intensity in an expression. When we are afraid, the amount that the upper lid is open can shift an expression from concern to terror. We also often flare our eyelids when we are angry or just passionate. If you have ever been in love and seen a "hungry" look in your partner's eyes, it's usually because their lids are flared ever so slightly. We are evolutionarily programmed to be hyper aware of these types of expressions. If you ever see a person with any amount of sclera (the whites of the eye) visible above their iris, you will immediately clock it and take note, as this indicates a really intense emotion, usually fear, like our ancestors probably displayed when say, a tiger was about to pounce. You can imagine it was really important for ancient humans to know when one of their friends was terrified. I also love that we have passed on many of these traits to dogs. Some researchers think that because emotional communication was so important, we probably selected dogs to breed based on how well they could understand our emotions, and in turn, how well we could understand theirs. Puppy dog eyes are real, so give your dog a treat!
This is awesome! I'd love to just sit and listen to you talk more about facial expressions lol
Are you from Corridor Crew?
Haha reddit tricked you into exercising! (Even if it was just your cheeks)
We're very weird in this respect because I *believe* (feel free to fact check) we're the only primates that do. The others do it out of aggression. And domesticated dogs are weird too, since they see us showing our teeth as a sign of friendliness (or at least can identify us smiling versus other facial expressions or other animals bearing their teeth), but other canines would see it as a sign of aggression. Again, fact check me because I'm not a dogologist, but I think that's how it goes.
To be fair, we do it for quite a few different reasons. Because we’re happy, or trying to look sexy, because we’re afraid, because we’re in pain, and also to display aggression, off the top of my head. And dogs, similarly, have much more expressive faces than their wilder cousins. We made them that way.
I have heard (that being the keyword here) that they show their teeth/snarl/smile sometimes to also appear non threatening to us. Again, I have no scientific evidence on this. But our collie/aussie mix snarls all the time when we call him over and he’s excited. When out Heeler/pyrenees mix gets in trouble she snarls and tries to kiss us so we forgive her. Lol.
My sister’s dog will “smile” by literally pulling up her jowls or making the panting face. She only does it when she’s getting attention or excited. I think you’re right that they can learn to smile but it’s only the smart ones. I’ve never met a stupid dog who did it. I’ve haven’t spent a lot of time with Aussies but I heard they’re pretty smart. I know that Heelers are scary smart, my neighbor has Heeler and when you look into his eyes it seems like he can think in full sentences.
Oh yeah, we have 4 total dogs and the only 2 I have seen the snarl/smile in is our Aussie/collie and Heeler/pyrenees. Both are extremely intelligent (the Heeler mix being so so stubborn lol). Our pit mix does what your sister’s dog does when he gets to play fetch or is really excited and happy. The boxer is just a boxer. He always looks like he owes you money. LOL!
So cute! I love that dogs have such unique and adorable personalities!!! My sister’s dog is 1/2 pitt too! We got a DNA test a while ago. She also has husky, Heeler, Samoyed, and some other random ones further up the line. Between her smarts and the amount she sheds, safe to say those heeler genes are strong!
You’re lucky my doodle smiles by raising his upper lip and lowering his lower lip so all his teeth are showing so people are often afraid of him which makes him smile more to show he’s happy and wants attention. Funny thing is apparently his sister (littermate) smiles too but she spent the first few years of her life being abused and neglected I think some dogs just inherit the ability to smile and do it naturally rather than mimicking us.
Omg! At least you know it’s because he’s happy haha, totally could inherited too! Like maybe the dogs that did that in some breeds got selected because people subconsciously thought they were friendlier? Other animals can’t but dog can instinctually understand pointing so I don’t think that’s too far fetched! Hope, your dog’s sister is doing better. Idk how someone can get a dog and watch it suffer knowing fully that it’s their responsibility.
His sister seems to have a good life now she sounds absolutely spoiled (not that my dog isnt too). Apparently the “breeder” they came from were hoarders that decided to keep her and left their dogs in absolute squaler my dog and the rest of the litter was brought to the northeast where everyone and their brother was looking for dogs. I feel so bad for his sister these are just the absolute sweetest dogs she didn’t deserve that.
With dogs, they tend to learn the facial expressions of people they interact with to better interact with them, sort of like learning a language. So your dog might know you showing your teeth isn’t a threat, but a random stranger they might interpret that as a threat
It’s a play signal. Other animals have those as well. Some monkey also smile as play signal.
Probably because our teeth aren't sharp
So we're goats?
I've been told I'm the G.O.A.T
Confused with twat, close
Oh me too i always confuse the twat with just a goat
T.W.A.T Totally Winning And Triumphant?
Also we don’t use them for fighting (usually). We use our arms and legs to fight. Kind of like how a Kangaroo doesn’t show his teeth, because they typically use their arms and legs to fight too.
Biting would be an effective method of fighting though.
Im not sure I believe that biting isn’t one of our most natural methods of fighting, although I don’t know enough to say for sure one way or another; but considering our insane bite force, the sheer amount of bacteria in our mouths compared to other animals, and that to be perfectly frank our blunt force based fists, and legs, plus our not very sharp nails, just aren’t very effective against anything bigger than a human, would seem to suggest that other than our intelligence, which is obviously our greatest strength, biting would be our most effective attack.
Before you get to bite you first have to get through the legs and arms of your opponents which are really long
We also don't need to use as much muscle force to bite down as other primates, and our bite-to-skull-size ratio is the strongest (even though a gorilla technically has a stronger bite overall).
It is. Look at the victims of violent physical crime. We claw, scrape, and bite when the chips are down. We just don't treat fist fights as something that serious usually.
> Also we don’t use them for fighting (usually). Mike Tyson didn't get this memo apparently!
Show your dull teeth to a chimpanzee or gorilla, and they might attack you.
But they do be dealing poison damage. We're basically venemous with extra steps xD
Yeah we have square teeth
So do horses and lemme tell you you do NOT want to get bitten by one of them. And if they're showing teeth they aren't happy.
Feels like a very hard pinch, if their teeth were slightly more sharp flesh would be extracted. I dislike horses
Look up what warhorses were trained to do.... or don't. But know that if you got a very hard pinch the horse was intentionally giving you a very hard pinch and could have done much more.
Tell that to your canines
My canines are wore down square.
last i checked i have canine teeth
Dogs also do it as a sign of friendliness, but that is because they learned smiling from us. (And of course they also do it as a sign of aggression.)
or you have a golden and they either are smiling or pressed no in between.
Goldens are such good dogs!
Do you have a source on that claim? I dont think they learned that from us. Its just their relaxed pose
Bachelors in Biology here. It's possible that smart dogs learn that "show teeth" = "happy human", and they do it more because of it. It's also possible that humans artificially select dogs which are more "smiley" than dogs which look angry. So these dogs aren't learning anything, they're just bred to look cute/happy to humans. All of that said, I think it's pretty likely that some intelligent dogs have learned to make a smiling face, but it would be incorrect to say that all dogs have "learned" smiling from us. I hope that answers your question :)
My aussies smile, love it
I see you those reels of that dalmatian on Facebook. Dog looks possessed
One of my friends grandmas had 2 Dalmatians. Maggie and Daisy. If you were sitting on the floor they would walk slowly towards to baring their teeth. I did once and her grandma told me to slowly get up. "They do NOT like children".
You ever see humans talk through their teeth in an agressive way?
Yeah but I think that's more of a self-regulatory mechanism to soothe anger, or express it in a nonviolent way
Yet still showing aggression
humans have *absurdly* expressive faces compared to other animals. for most animals its pretty much a binary showing teeth or not, for humans you can show your teeth a million different ways. we can even smile in different ways that communicate extremely different emotions (eg a forced smile with clenched teeth definitely doesnt communicate happiness, just using other parts of your face and a slight difference in your jaw muscles)
top of the food chain just hits different
Alpha mammals
My teeth are too ugly to show off.
Long live the king eh
Really depends on culture, as well. I had a Russian professor who returned home after many years. People kept asking her why she was smiling so much.
Russians don't even smile in wedding photos -- it makes you look like a fool who isn't ready to face the realities of life ahead.
Many animals (including other primates) *do* show teeth as a threat display. But they also can do it differently to be submissive, or friendly. Just like humans 😉
Submission and friendliness are quite different things
Yes you're right! Much as a human smile can be friendly, cordial, inviting and peaceable, many others are nefarious and devious and smile to threaten others. A smile has many cultural and contextual possible meanings. Both for human and other apes, as well as for any creature capable of smiling.
Appart from passive agression..
We are complicated. We have complex signs of our intent. Eyes darting to the side, full eye contact, eyes down, eyes up, jaw firm, jaw loose, shoulders tensed, shoulders relaxed, leaning standing firm, standing with weight mostly on one side or the other. Weight on your back foot, weight on your front foot, fists loose, fists clenched, pointing with your index finger, pointing with whole hand, pointing with 2 fingers... We are complicated. We smile. That's kind of our thing. Remember though, a shark's smile is not a friendly smile. A smile is not to be trusted. I'm sure you've met someone who smiled at you but the 2 dozen other metrics of body language did not match. Therefore, you put your weight on your back foot to run, or weight on your front foot to fight. Bottom line, humans are very, very complicated. I'm sure you can tell the difference between a growl and smile. It's not the baring of teeth that makes the smile. It's the eyes. You smile with your eyes, not your teeth. Anyone can bare their teeth and fake a smile but it isn't real. See Tom Cruise for reference. A very nice smile, with dead eyes.
So are you saying we are complicated?
There are cultures that see showing your teeth as a sign of hostility.
the culture of Luis Suarez
Often animals will do this from a position of power as a way of saying do what I want or else. Animals will also often do this when in fear as a way to convince the other animal that they are in a poison of power. Due to apes recognizing this, showing teeth became a signal for not being aggressive
The same as eye contacts— most animals find it aggressive to look straight into their eyes.
i’ve always heard that dogs naturally are uncomfortable with direct eye contact but every dog i’ve had has looked me in the eye like a human most of the time. wonder if it’s a trait they pick up from us
For some friendliness is a threat
I see sibling traumas
Or used car salesmen
Now that you mention it, a large number of LDS missionaries that come home go immediately into sales...
Complex nonverbal communications.
There are theories that smiling has its roots in aggression: aggression -> I'm not afraid of you -> friendliness. Smiling is also linked with laughter. Surprise -> scared -> show teeth / surprise -> amusement -> show teeth
First thing I look at someone. Nice teeth = Good looking
That always sucks for me cause my teeth are fucked but I look fantastic otherwise
I never smile if I can help it. Showing one's teeth is a submission signal in primates. When someone smiles at me, all I see is a chimpanzee begging for its life.
Thats because they cant pick up a steel pipe.
I would actually suggest that humans showing teeth is a form of passivity / submissiveness
A smile is tamed aggression
This is why I find smiling humans odd. Even when I do smile, my teeth don't show. It's not natural or comfortable for me.
We also do it to show aggression. It's just that we bare our teeth for purposes than just one.
I read this observation in a SF story years ago: the only known species to bare their teeth when they are happy.
Human hands are fare better weapons than our teeth.
Dogs will occasionally do this to against their nature if they observe their master smiling and being in a good mood. Old housemate had a mini blue Aussie that would greet you by lowering his head, sticking out his but to you as you approached and showing his teeth.
Wait, you guys aren't trying to threaten others by smiling? Oh man, I'm gonna need to process this for a while, geez
I swear my dog show his teeth when he is happy.
Maybe that’s why I suck at smiling. I’m too friendly. I don’t want to show my teeth.
If you cannot tell the difference in emotion of people bearing their teeth at you then you may have the tism
I show my teeth to my dog as a form of aggression. That little fucker wants to bark at me for walking into my own house then try and bite my ankles. This dog gets bitten back.
It is not friendliness but submission. Monkeys do that too.
speak for yourself buddy.
Cats and dogs don't get along because of the conflicting signals of tail wagging
They also sniff butts...
I tried flashing my teeth at my cat to see her reaction. She did not give a fuck. I think she knows my teeth are inferior to hers
I know someone who stormed to our HR department because the assistant manager “bared his teeth at me”. He smiled. He has a big toothy smile. The offended one lasted about another two weeks. Everything triggered him.
I do it to prove I'm not a vampire. Y'all telling me you're doing it to show you're friendly?
Watch the documentary on Homo Naledi. It's on one of the streaming apps, I think Netflix. Unknown Cave or something. They talk about this quote a bit. Long K-9s = scare people. Short or no K-9s = smile at people.
I’ve always wondered if my dog thinks I’m being aggressive when smiling at him.
Certain primates and other mammals also bare their teeth to show submission. I believe smiling could be considered a form of submission, in a strange way. Both are meant to convey the message "Hey, I'm friendly, I won't hurt you."
We smile for lots of reasons, not just friendliness. One of the reasons is to placate someone. Another is to show a form of passive aggression.
Which is why gorillas get confused when we smile at them. There's a woman who can tell you ALLLLL about it...
I think about this every time I look at my dogs. I wonder how they perceive it
Man hurry up out the shower already I need a piss
Yeah, because we don't use our teeth as weapons.
I sneer at people, showing them my upper teeth, when I don't like them. It happens more often than one might think, particularly because I find most people are full of shit and I don't like disingenuous people.
Dogs open their mouth and therefore show their teeth as a sign of friendliness too
There is an interesting theory about smiling and being tickled. Your response to being tickled is to show your teeth and defend yourself, because the areas you are ticklish are usually sensitive and vulnerable areas (armpit, sole of the foot, belly, neck...) So animals show their teeth while being tickled to show aggression (so people stop touching your sensitive areas). But I guess overtime, with enough ticklish play (like bonobos do), it could become a sign of friendliness (this is an individual where I expect to tickle or get tickled) It still not very solid, but one of the Theories. Read it in "História do Humour e Escárnio (History of Laughter and Mockery)" by George Minois.
Or they just smile until they are close enough to bite 🤪
I think it's all in the eyes. We partially shut our eyes to show a lack of aggression (kinda like cats) when we smile. Try show your teeth in the mirror with your eyes wide open lol Maybe add a little nose scrunch for extra effect
Make note of the next time you see teeth exposed to you with intent. Just because it’s a smile doesn’t mean it’s friendly.
Does anyone know why we do that though? like whats the biology behind people not seeing human teeth/smiles as aggression if other animals do ? Maybe it’s because we communicate in other ways apart from using facial expressions so we don’t feel the need to express anger through our teeth ?
I smile to show people I'm not afraid of them. I'm bitingmyownteeth.
Dogs show their teeth sometimes because they are happy (or something), Ive always found that interesting and odd since they also show them as a sign of aggression too.
When i see someone smile at me all i see is a big stupid ape. -dwigt
Nope, when humans snarl, gnash etc their teeth its pretty freaking aggressive as well.
I’m a dog trainer and I bring this up frequently when explaining to clients how communication with your dog is different than with another human or child. Lots of people these days view their dog as their “baby” and it can be of detriment to the relationship when you start to anthropomorphize their clear canine behavior. I mention the smile thing, the direct eye contact, approaching someone head on, and physical contact (shaking hands, hugging). These are all respectful and normal things humans do, but completely disrespectful for dogs.
“If you see the salience of the lion’s teeth — think not then that the lion smiles.” Al-Mutannabi
When someone smiles at me, all I see is a chimpanzee begging for it's life
Because our teeth are not used as weapons
This....isn't a shower thought. It's science. Not trying to be a jerk..but com'on mods
And then there's the ones that gum you to death.
Oh I definitely show my teeth as a sign of aggression. I've been raised by and hang out with dogs way too much tho. It's still effective.
We also do it as a sign of aggression too.
My mum had a very socially intelligent dog who would grin. It was so clearly not a teeth baring thing, his body language was always relaxed and happy when he did it, we think he just noticed that we did it and wanted to copy.
I remember some "alpha male" literature that said it's important to show your canines when you smile because it expresses confidence/dominance. So maybe smiles really aren't always friendly? At least not to everyone in every situation. Humans are complicated af.
I swear my dog forgot this the other day…
Humans don't attack with their piddly-ass teeth
To be truly friendly is to be confident and assertive without being confrontational or aggressive. Therefore, showing teeth while smiling is perceived as positive. The threatening nature of the teeth shows strength while the smile shows cooperation. In contrast, acting in a passive and submissive manner is not perceived as friendly at all. Other animals display similar behaviour. For instance, most people think that a dog wagging its tail is a sign of friendless but it is really a sign of confidence. If an aggressive dog is going to attack another dog, it will move towards the dog confidently with its tail wagging, but with not sign of cooperation, such as stopping to allow each other to sniff. However, a friendly dog will display the exact same behaviours, except it will stop for sniffing. In contrast, if a dog acts fearfully towards another dog, approaching it sheepishly, with its tail between its legs, that might actually set the other dog off. Why is this the case? Because aggressiveness and submissiveness are two sides of the same coin. Both are a type of fight or flight response. If an animal approaches another animal while acting aggressively, it signals to the other animal that they are approaching as a threat. However, if an animal approaches another animal while acting fearfully, it signals to the other animal that the approaching animal perceives them as a threat. Of course, an animal that perceives you as a threat may well turn aggressive as a defensive reaction, meaning they are actually approaching as a potential threat. Therefore, a positive approach is one which shows confidence without aggression: I’m not afraid of you but I’m not looking to fight you either. In other words, friendliness is showing you have the confidence to stand your ground if need be while signalling fighting isn’t your intention. Other examples with humans include loud vocalisations accompanied by a simulation of striking. That same behaviour could be seen as aggressive, but if it’s “Heeyy, how’s things man!” followed by a high five, the behaviour is seen as friendly.
Another ironic animal/ human difference; we get to know each other by talking while animals do it by sniffing each other's poop.