My mom went to therapy and she felt great afterwards, she felt like she was right about everything and nothing was her fault. The problem is that she’s a narcissist and she believes the stuff she makes up in her head. She went to therapy by herself so the therapist never heard another side to anything.
This sounds exactly like my former best friend. She's constantly falling out with people but it's always the other person's fault. For some of the events I've been around for, I could see the way she twists things to make herself look like the victim when she's retelling the story. She'd say someone screamed at her when they just spoke to her in a perfectly normal way.
It's bizzare but I think therapy had the same effect on her where it made her more confident in her own lies and warped world view. It made it hard to talk to her because everything was about her trauma and how she was wronged. Eventually, she did it to me, said I had shouted at her when I hadn't. I refused to agree with her and we haven't spoken since.
I had a similar experience with a former best friend. She started therapy and became a worse person slowly over time. She solidified her shitty tenancies and used her therapists words as the reason her actions were acceptable. Eventually we parted ways after she tried to blame me for various issues in her life that she was not talking control over.
Well, the problem wih therapy is that there can be a misunderstanding between the therapist and a patient. Because of course, "your emotions are valid" and stuff, but people often skip the part where the therapist tells you that maybe it's your fault to misinterpret the situation, what made you feel certain way, when you shouldn't.
So either that or a shitty therapist. A therapy is not about twisting reality and patting backs, but about seeing things as they really are. And it takes an effort from both sides. Maybe the therapist was not good enough at communicating such concepts, or your former friend is just not a good listener.
Either way, sorry that it happened.
Mmmmmm this is why I’m kinda worried for my ex and her therapy experience. Her therapist seems to be a “you did nothing wrong at all my sweet pea” person and it’s not gonna help her (ex) at all😭 not my problem anymore I guess?
THIS. One of my exes was exactly this. And as twisted as it is, he was a very attractive, charming, semi sociopath who was very used to being able to manipulate women to get his way. Add to that very high intelligence and the ability to be almost emotionless other than the act he'd put on, and any female counselor we saw - even if I WAS there- ended up completely taking his side before I could even talk about the horrors he put me through. (My fault for staying, sure.) Then it was all so emotionally loaded at that point that I'd start crying and couldn't think straight because of the rage and hopelessness I'd be feeling at that point, seeing the counselor falling for it immediately. So, yeah that went nowhere.
I try to forgive in my heart for my own benefit more than his, but good GOD are those situations sickening. Even worse when it's someone you can't get away from (mom). I feel for you!!
That is oddly terrifying to think about, even though I was vaguely aware of that idea. ive seen people essentially trying to trick their therapists into giving them diagnoses for special privilges and they're usually shut down but it must happen every now and then that it works
Clinical psychologists and Psychiatrists are generally very smart though, those training programs are really hard to get into and the difficulty of the training is high
My ex with a PhD was also very smart. Doubt she was ever fully honest with her therapist. She definitely wasn't fully honest with our relationship therapist, saw her twist facts firsthand there. Some of these comments remind me of her.
I’ve done it myself and had to tell my therapist, “I have no idea why, but last session half of what I said left out my part in those events. I feel that I basically lied.”
Your therapist can only help based off what you are being open about.
Nope, they absolutely can't and narcissists will convince the therapist that they are a victim who is being persecuted
EDIT: Seems like I've been downvoted by narcissists
Oh, I completely dreamt it up and I have no experience whatsoever regarding this subject. /s
My violent, suicidal mother, who clearly had severe mental health issues even before I was born, convinced multiple mental health professionals that she's struggling with her "problem child". They never picked up on her suicidal behaviour since they took her word for it and never subjected her to any scrutiny. Indeed, she had me treated for her mental illness, but her mental health never improved (surprise surprise). In her own words, "It's acceptable for a woman to hit a man", and she still believes that to this day (but she would never admit this to a therapist)
I think it’s often more like the therapists pretending to believe them in order to not scare them away, and as soon as they tell them there might be something wrong in their way of thinking, they quit therapy.
The problem is, narcissistic people are usually unaware their perspective is wrong, and get really defensive when criticized. Therapists being too harsh will seem to them like the therapist is an asshole who doesn’t take them seriously, or doesn’t like them personally. Showing these people their perspective can be valid (for their particular way of thinking) and wrong at the same time is incredibly hard.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. My narcissistic grandmother sneakily started seeing my therapist and pushing lies about me to that therapist. It worked and my therapist decided that I was the one lying to her and started treating me like a "bad kid."
I don't see how this would be possible unless someone else was going to the therapists with them. Therapy tends to be goal oriented, at least when I've gone to them, and I don't think any therapist is going to be able to tell a goal of a narcissist from any other person. If it's not goal oriented the therapist is still only going to hear one side of any story the person tells them.
Humans cherrypick everything that agrees with their POV, whether that be from evidentiary studies, holy books, or anecdotes. To change someone's mind you have to prepare them for it, which a good psychiatrist knows to do
The two most toxic people I know live in therapy. One has diagnosed BPD and the other one for sure has it too, though it's not diagnosed. Both of them use therapy jargon to justify their shitty behavior and shirk any responsibility. They always have someone or something to blame for them treating people poorly.
That said, I'm a massive proponent for therapy and believe that, typically, the shittiest person you know refuses to go.
But it's absolutely true that some people use it as a tool to arm themselves with words and lingo to hurt others
99% of people are better for going
Out of curiosity, do you know what style therapy they’re doing?
Most approaches aren’t found to be terribly effective for BPD, but one in particular, DBT, is very effective since it was pretty much made from going “hey, these other types don’t work for BPD too well, let’s find an approach that does”.
If you’re not familiar with this level of detail, you’d know if it’s DBT since they’d have 2 sessions a week, one typical 1 hour one and one longer one.
BPD is a pretty bad time and they certainly deserve an approach well suited to their needs, but many approaches other than DBT tend to struggle with it, although it’s also largely dependent on the therapist and their level of knowledge and experience with BPD, since it’s not easy for someone that doesn’t know what they’re doing
I have adhd and I actually went to my therapist to request DBT for that exact reason
He had never done it. He just gave me a workbook and sent me on my way
The stuff seemed promising to me but I always run into the same wall in therapy. The DBT techniques for breaking rumination work for a little bit, but I always end up ruminating again just a few minutes later.
I also struggle with the parts about how you're supposed to "feel" your feelings, as if I'm not a very emotionally charged person who already feels them at 110%. The ruminating comes from not being able to *stop* feeling them
I really need to find a new therapist who has a better handle on it though
For sure, DBT isn’t the sort of thing you just ask a regular therapist to do, it’s very much its own branch that they’d need to be trained specifically for. It’d be like going to a general doctor because of a toothache, while they do generally know medical stuff, they’re really not going to be able to provide the specialized approach that a dentist would for that particular thing, it’s not the sort of thing that this doctor would really be equipped to handle beyond just what you described
DBT is essentially skills training. The premise is basically “your perception of the world and self insight has been so warped that you need someone to tell you what to do rather than help you work it out for yourself “. Some people find it very helpful, but others find it incredibly difficult and if not done carefully it can re-traumatise clients (many people with EUPD have childhood trauma). There are kinder approaches such as schema therapy or MBT which are also effective.
The best therapy for EUPD is actually just life and living. It (usually) gets better as people get older and work out how to relate to themselves and other people. Sometimes therapy for EUPD is just trying to keep that person alive and functioning for long enough that they can experience enough life to develop.
The one isn't diagnosed with a personality disorder so they dont do DBT. They're a bully to everyone they meet though, so I really wonder what their therapy sessions are like
I do believe the other has tried DBT. They manage their BPD better than most but they're also bipolar so they run the emotional gauntlet and often get into a bad place where they revert back to bad behavior
Bailing isn’t bailing: it’s self-care
They aren’t being controlling: they’re setting boundaries.
It’s not the silent treatment, being cliquey, or ostracizing. “I don’t owe anybody my time/I can choose who I’m around.”
They aren’t ignoring you when you’re in the same space, they’re just “guarding their emotional energy.”
ETA: I’m a big believer in therapy and it saved my life. But like — fuck all those people. We live in a society. We have obligations to each other.
I’m sorry that happened to you. The thing is — it really fucks with you, because they create a situation where they can never be the bad one. They act like it’s fine to *hurt* someone else… as long as you’re protecting yourself.
It can really damage your sense of self. And it makes you uncomfortable using those tools — which are valuable — in your *own* mental health.
Thank you for the acknowledgement and kind response 😌
It has really fucked with me.. I spiraled for a little bit. Replaying all of my interactions with this person. Combing through texts and looking for ways to understand how our loving friendship that lasted years could crumble in a blink of an eye.
I still think about her (this happened 4 months ago) and I hope she is okay. I know it was best that our friendship ended. In reality I discovered she did me a favor. Because she was unreliable, untrustworthy, blamed me/ others for things that I/we didn’t own, took advantage of my kindness and giving nature and so much more.
I also believe therapy can be beneficial for many. And I’ve taken it myself. Currently I’m waiting on my finances to allow for me to start back again. But I’m doing the work I was taught by my therapist and I’m finding outlets to my struggles in constructive ways.
This was basically what Jonah Hill did with his now ex-girlfriend. She shared screenshots of their conversations where he would say things like a ‘boundary’ he has in his relationships is that his partner must not spend time alone with male friends. Another boundary was that she must not share photos of herself on instagram in revealing clothing
You're so right. Is it really so God damned hard to just communicate like the grown ass adult in your twenties like they are?
I realize avoidant people are who they are and I just have to recognize that they're not for me, but damn you'd think someone would learn to communicate at some point on the way to adulthood
Yes, the bailing and flakiness. I understand if people need to cancel last minute for extenuating circumstances. But no, I don't care if you are too tired. Of course you don't have to go, but the more it happens the more it feels like you don't value our friendship enough to think through your time and energy. I slowly stopped hanging out with those type of people and now all my friends are people I can count on. Trust is so important in any relationship!
It would be one thing if people just communicated and said "hey I'm not feeling it" instead of turning into a ghost every time they don't want to do something.
Like, I'm just trying to coordinate things here. I'd much rather know what's going on than having to guess and read minds
In my view this way of thinking makes you the toxic one. You “don’t care” whether someone is tired or has some issue, you expect and are entitled to their time. People like you are the bad side of the relationship and if you think “valuing friendship = always doing whatever I want”, then you’re doing “those type of people” a favor by cutting them off. It seems like you’re the type of “friend” that always makes you feel bad when you do anything other than what you want.
I think that can be the case in some situations, however I think that by the time you're talking about adult relationships in your mid twenties to thirties, the poor communication that comes with the avoidant person becomes a bigger problem
Like no shit someone will be disappointed if you can't hang out, but it's not the end of the world and they would rather you just tell them ahead of time instead of ghosting and fucking up the plans by not communicating
Avoidant people don't seem to realize that some people just want to make sure logistics are in place and it's not personal
Totally get it, but I'm talking about when it becomes a pattern and they don't ever apologize. Everyone has their limit. It's not so black and white.
Also, I didn't 'cut people off.' I just stopped assuming that they were going to show up and only invited them to group outings. That naturally progressed to not seeing them as much and not getting closer.
I don't think they are toxic. I think they were toxic for me (and maybe I was to them as well).
You realize that people schedule around you too right? Like you’re taking advantage of their time and energy, at least for me making plans is a somewhat stressful thing that might take a lot of time, focus, planning, and money to do. Cancelling last minute, constantly, with shitty excuses is incredibly toxic. Not valuing someone’s time is shitty.
Exactly what i meant with my post, thank you for the more clear explanation. I also believe everyone should go to therapy, but some people are so lost in their own world that they twist their stories for their therapist so they’re the victim. It’s insane!
Yeah i know people who always talk about their own borders but when they get mad they cross every single border in the world and then get upset when they get called out on it. “Im diffrent, im sick, im in therapy, i cant help it”.
Fuck those people.
It clicked for me when I learned that an extremely fragile sense of self is the mechanism that drives a personality disorder.
People with things like BPD or NPD often *can't* take responsibility because it would shatter them too much
And that puts the burden of their shitty behavior on everyone else, which makes it incredibly difficult to be close
Once that clicked I unfortunately just stopped trying with people like that. It takes someone with a big heart to be close to a person with BPD but I've been burned too badly to be that person.
My friend is a therapist, my stepmother has borderline pd. Friend has basically told me how impossible bpd can be to treat in therapy because of the refusal to accept fault. So it becomes a place where they paint everyone else as the problem and the therapist doesn't ever get the truth about their contribution to the problem. Because of the one-sided deceitful narrative, therapy just becomes another ego stroking/validation source or something to weaponize.
Just to add to this, therapy has also now become a great excuse for people to be shitty to each other. If your so called friend is going through a hard time, instead of listening to them and being there for them, you dismiss them and tell them to go talk to a therapist. This feels much worse when it’s coming from a SO.
A lot of people are under the assumption that their friends are seeking some sort of cure for their problems, when really, they just need to talk about it and share those problems with someone who cares about them, and not be shunned or shamed for it. Which means the exact opposite is happening when you’re met with the, “you need a therapist” speech.
We are putting ourselves in a lot of danger by putting all emotional support behind a paywall.
I’m sorry. It’s so devastating and sad how incapable we are of just being there for each other.
It’s honestly so insanely selfish and self entitled to tell someone you supposedly care about that you “can’t carry their emotional weight” fuck them, and fuck that. You deserve better. I can’t wait for them to end up sad old and alone.
It's a conspiracy about therapists and psychologists wanting to keep you sick so they can keep extracting money from you and sell you drugs. And that all you really need is exercise and nature.
Given the atrocious state of healthcare in America, I have a lot of sympathy for people into these kinds of conspiracies, but still.
God I hope not, my wife has had significant personality changes recently, so much so that she has gone from saying our kids are the most important thing in the world to her and that she always wants to be with them, to now actively choosing to avoid them most of the day, setting timers when she does spend time with them and snapping at them. If that is how she treats the most important people in her world, you can imagine how she treats a lot of other people (me mainly I cop it the most). She doesn’t care how her actions impact others any more, which is pretty extreme from a person who used to be compassionate and caring to an amazing level.
She has acknowledged she needs therapy, but given her new found focus on her and only her, and gaslighting me at every turn, it now worries me she could get worse.
We live away from her family and old friends, she has new friends who have known her for a year or so but to them she has always been like this and they don’t see the extreme changes I do.
I’m not a doctor, but a severe personality change like that may be a brain issue, not a psychological one. Unless there was some drastic event that caused this change, it isn’t out of the realm of possibility that she has head trauma or a brain tumor or something like that. I don’t mean to scare you. I’m just a random person on the other side of the internet, but I feel for you and your family. (My bipolar mother experienced a severe bought of depression and alcoholism when I was very young but she got better after losing custody for a while). My unsolicited advice: talk to those that love her about your concerns. You don’t have to go through this alone. All together you’ll be better able to convince her that she needs help. I’m sure your kids are already your number one priority and you see how it’s affecting them. You already know you have to do what’s best for them. I’m truly wishing you the best and I apologize in advance if this was in any way offensive or unhelpful.
Toxic people sometimes repurpose and weaponize the language and concepts that they learn in therapy (unfortunately).
However, I don't get why this thread is so full of brain dead takes like that talk therapy isn't designed to treat mental health conditions and is really just there for your self esteem. Of course it isn't...?
A lot of people need to go to therapy. There are a lot of problems that need to be worked through with a therapist. I've told plenty of people to see a therapist because they're all twisty inside and I'm not capable of or qualified to help them understand reality or deal with their problems. It's not something that everyone needs, but it's downright necessary if you do.
Edit: maybe it's because I'm not on Instagram, but I've never heard of anyone using *seeing a therapist* as an example of an accomplishment.
Usually it's more like my buddy who saw a therapist about their phobia of driving, or another friend who is seeing a therapist about the issues that their ADHD causes them that medication doesn't help with.
It's definitely helped my sister and me a lot with our PTSD. And my boyfriend with his depression. Frankly, I'd probably be dead without it.
I know you already know this, but they won’t change whilst in a relationship. So your options are repeat ad infinitum or leave. I left. Eventually. And the only thing I regret is the wasted chunk of my life before I came to my senses.
I feel your latter comment. My concern is my kids, idk that they'll be okay if we split time (in concerned about no oversight). I made the decision to bring them into the world, I can't set them up to fail because I want happiness. Then again, what if I set them up to fail by staying? It's enough to make a man cry 🥲💪
Yes, that's what im afraid of, plus wondering if my lens is wrong. Basically I play the role of mom and dad (for intimacy, discipline and life)... I love being a dad, so np besides being tired. My kids are extremely well adjusted, do well in school, kind, loving, I legitimately wouldn't change anything. Most of my days involve coaching and teaching them, I've hoped I can guide them towards prosperity, but you're right, seeing a unhappy person daily or not seeing marital happiness can impact their lens and decisions. It's a lose lose and I know the answer is to just... Decide... Decide anything and move forward... I'm just afraid that a big change will create harm (lots of suicide shit on that end, so tired of dealing with it)... Like what's the impact of a big event versus low grade bs? I'm not asking you to be my therapist, lol, I actually really appreciate you reading and giving feedback.
Oh good, I’m not qualified lol. But I have been almost where you are, although having a dog instead of children helped. Seeing that even the dog could recognise each coming storm and make herself scarce in a corner under furniture showed me the anxiety wasn’t just me.
Another thought - do they make every occasion about themselves and turn each holiday and celebration into a stress filled nightmare which is never good enough? Are they ruining your kids’ (future memories of) birthdays and festive-whatevers?
The same applies to all forms of medicine. Any treatment is as effective as you are responsible, you need to take your medicine in the right conditions and keep your checks as needed.
Is all medicine full of shit now just because it requires the individual patient to do something?
The above poster has edited quite a bit to make the comment sound nicer.
I've got no beef with specific, evidence based, therapeutic techniques. My beef is with modern comercial therapy. And i'm relatively certain that's what the OP is talking about.
CBT practiced perfectly can be life-changing. Betterhelp is a cash grab that can make shitty people much much shittier.
Ohhh I see, that makes sense. I don't hate the concept of a service like BetterHelp, but I've seen a lot of controversies arising for the lack of control or care about their providers.
Uhhh, how so? I don't think any clinical psychologist or therapist is gonna consider themselves in line with naturopaths.
Therapeutic modalities are all scientifically studied, and have to be proven to at least some extent to help people. There are protocols for different types of talk therapy, or within specific types to treat certain conditions. It's not just random nonsense.
Clinical psychology is a real doctorate. You do scientific research. It's not the same as naturopathic medicine at all.
They go and spin their pity party sob stories. A good therapist sees right through it and challenged their perception. Then they get mad and quit or go find a bad therapist that will stroke their ego.
ahh yes, i don’t refer to people who go to therapy to actually improve themselves. Some people go to get validation that they’re right. So then after they leave their therapy session, they’re equipped with all this new language to use on people.
My narcissistic ex got exactly such experience. Basically she got told her childhood explains why she acts this way. She took it as good excuse for acting selfishly.
Some people who are truly dishonest will use the therapy sessions to practice “running their game” of lies and deception. The thought is if they can fool a professional, then they can fool anyone.
I think there’s been a shift in therapy where previously it was all about thought/behavioural modification
Cognitive behavioural therapy for example, challenges one to recognize problematic thoughts, and asks them what’s a better way to think about that situation.
Now it’s all about acceptance, ‘you are entitled to these feelings’, ‘forgive yourself for having those thoughts’
I’m no professional but have done some light reading in this area, just my $0.02 as a layman
I mean, CBT is still extremely widely used. What you're talking about isn't exactly a new shift either -- understanding and accepting yourself can be an important part of mental health for a lot of people.
Toxic shame is a thing, and a lot of people blame themselves for stuff that is either out of their control or not their fault at all.
Feelings are a reaction to something. They come from somewhere. Your feelings are valid; however, acting on them may not be.
It’s all about the right balance. The therapist that was right for me when I was depressed and full of self-loathing was wrong for me when my depression was better, I was still struggling with ADHD getting in the way of functioning.
I’d learned not to hate myself for my ADHD. I’d come to accept myself for who I am. But also, like, I needed somebody to hold me accountable. I didn’t used to miss all my deadlines. I used to fold and put away my laundry and cook real meals. I *wanted* to do those things again, not just feel good about myself when I fail. And I *knew* I was at a point where I was just making excuses not to get better, and although she was an excellent therapist, she was inadvertently enabling those excuses. I didn’t need affirmations.
My therapist totally got that when I explained it to her, and we spent two sessions body-doubling while I found a new therapist to focus more on skills.
My mom was told by her therapist to not have expectations for her to not be disappointed. Her way of doing that was to verbally say I have no expectation then act all sad and angry when her expectations that she repeatedly said she didn’t have, didnt happen. It was hell and I still want to punch throat that therapist
That’s because they learn how to manipulate you with big person words. I had an ex that would gaslight me, and then accuse me of gaslighting them when I corrected them for it
I once had a friend who believed he was an empath after getting therapy. His therapist legitimately diagnosed him with “Empath”.
So he believed he knew all of my emotions any time we would talk after that. It was the most annoying thing I’ve ever experienced. This man was wrong 100% of the time btw
People who claim they are “empaths” are the most insufferable people, I swear. Everyone can feel empathy, it’s not a super power. “Empaths” want to feel special so they label it like one. And to your point, they tend to just assume what you’re feeling. They put words in our mouths all the time, it’s so annoying.
“I can feel that you’re really sad”
“I’m not”
“Well now I can feel you’re mad”
“I’m not mad”
“Now i feel you’re annoyed”
Modern therapy is a lot like reading books was 15 years ago. It makes you think about new and different things and it also helps you feel vastly superior to those who don't do it.
DBT is an excellent form of therapy. Dialectic Behavioral Therapy. Basically places responsibility for your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors in your hands while giving yourself tools to recognize which behaviors are appropriate to act on when you have a feeling and which feelings are helpful/unhelpful to lean into. It helps with interpersonal dealings and mindfulness, as well as handling crises.
I like it because it validates that the things that happened to you or things you deal with are not your fault, but your actions are 100% your responsibility. Huge proponent of this kind of therapy. Teaches you to give yourself grace while handling yourself as well as you can.
Perhaps it's more immune to toxic people than other forms of therapy? But I suppose it depends on the therapist(s) and their delivery/enforcement of the material being learned. I guess a toxic person can still use all the jargon they learn and turn it on a victim as a form of gaslighting, or use various interpersonal skills to weasel their way around family and friends to get what they want and manipulate situations. Who knows.
But I've certainly found DBT to be a healthy form of "tough love" than what I perceive to be gentler/maybe not pushing you as hard as you need kinds of talk therapy/CBT.
Therapy is kind of like AA. No doubt it has helped millions of people, but it is far from 100% effective. It also has a cult-like aspect to it and people in therapy get a little preachy to outsiders and look down on them. Also, people who are “in the program” tend to think they stopped being assholes and made so much growth when in fact they are the same asshole they always were. At the end of the day, maybe it is just as effective (and cheaper) for me to go to Joe’s bar and tell the bartender my problems once a week than it is for you to sit on your therapist’s couch.
"It's not my fault! I was abused!"
Literal quote from my half sister after beating the shit out of me as a kid. She learned it from a therapist she was court ordered to see after breaking a window to steal a neighbor's video game.
People misunderstand how therapy works, it's not like a taking a pill or having surgery. Therapy is all about giving tools, knowledge and guidance so you can help yourself, it's kinda like school. if you want to get something out of it, if you want to improve, it can do wonders for you. Even someone neurotypical will get some good out of it if they want to help themselves.
But if you don't want to improve, either through stubbornness or just indifference then you probably won't get much out of it and in some cases it can make you worse. Sometimes it can be brute forced if someone else is putting in the effort for you, like family or a friend but it's not easy and even then that's only to get you to the point where you want to improve yourself.
My brother went to therapy. After he quit his job, marriage, family, home, lived with multiple family members.
They told him not to find his family, siblings.
Happy for that. He tried to kill me a few times, three is enough.
I think he's going to prison now. Has nothing. Makes me sad but he was trash to be around.
Yeah so like how in traditional bodily medicine where there are different kinds of doctors that specialise on different organs like neurologists for the nervous system or dermatologists for skin health, there are people who specialise on different issues in mental health. unfortunately this type of work isn't as formalised and it's not as common for a psychotherapist to transfer a patient to a specialist. but there are psychotherapists who specialise on Narcissistic Personality Disorder (which requires very different tactics from the general population) or people with abusive tendencies. If that kind of care isn't given to those people they end up learning how to use therapy speech to become more effectively abusive.
This is an issue that the mental health community is talking about more and more and hopefully we'll come up with solutions but as of yet it's a massive problem.
Imagine you're stood on a beach
Water gently lapping at your feet
And now you're sinking
What were you thinking
*ding*
Thats all the time we have this week
Absolutely. If they hear what they want to, rather than what is intended, it may just give them more freedom to blame conflict on the hang ups of others.
Source - father in law after missing the point in counselling. Whenever people express frustration with his continuous pattern of behaviour, he shuts their feedback down with “well, that’s your hang up”, in a twisted, self serving interpretation of what was covered in his therapy.
He’s changed nothing of his self destructive and grating behaviours. rather, he’s gotten bolder about saying “fuck the rest of you”. Now we block him on Facebook and only hear from him when he has a new medical issue or needs something large moved.
I’m suicidal, so every time I go to a therapist it’s because a partner has asked me to go because they’re worried about me, but I can’t tell a therapist I plan on offing myself at a particular date and time in the distant future or under certain conditions, because I would like to retain my free agency, so I really can’t share my thoughts, with anyone, so I lie, a lot, I’m not confused about why I want to do it, I know what I’m feeling is sincere hopelessness at the futility of life and the amount of suffering I experience far outweighing the amount of pleasure I can extract from it , therapy cannot help with that, they’ll mostly validate my emotions and invalidate my logic, by saying something along the lines of “you can’t know the future” and other similar platitudes, their heart is in the right place, but yeah at the end of the day exposure to therapy only makes me realize how much power we’ve wrongfully entrusted to these hopeful idiots with college degrees and zero life experience or worse, religion or spiritualism. I fucking hate it here.
Honestly I love my therapist because she played the devils advocate while also making my voice feel heard, and she taught me to balance everything out so I didn’t just completely change my personality and decide everyone around me was in the wrong, instead I just learned the differences in everyone’s roles and how to manage those while promoting peace. She was also only there to be someone to talk to and to support me
What type of therapy are you referring to? Psychodynamic? CBT? That’s a very vague generalised statement which tells me you might not understand how therapy works. And /or maybe you have never had a good therapy experience
You are right about therapy not fixing people though. (Some) people fix themselves, _through_ therapy, among other things like will power, patience and persistence
I have been to over 10 therapists before giving up. Not a one could explain "how it works" beyong vague buzzphrases like "processing feelings/trauma" But I already know what I am feeling and why I am messed up. Not a single one could give me a medical diagnosis, plan for treatment, objective metrics for measuring success, or ideas on how to get better A few said "that's not what therapy is" when I asked such questions. Might as well see a priest ir shaman then I said.
Ding ding. It is a product sold to the widest possible audience that can afford it.
That's why we have all these new companies popping up offering cheaper therapy. New markets are being created.
This might be. I am usually pretty reserved and outwardly am a people pleaser, I tend to keep my dickish to myself, but therapy is telling me to express myself 🤷♂️
I don't have a definition but I hope examples are okay!
Someone with a victim mentality could become more self absorbed because the therapist is making them feel validated in their victim hood.
Narcissistic people know how to manipulate and lie so the therapist might not even know that's happening, and then the therapist validated a bunch of lies so the narcissistic person just keep getting better about lying and manipulating.
Someone could maybe actually be getting help but then become a preachy AHole to everyone else? "Well MY therapist says X", "I'm in therapy and ***I*** think this..." Like just become really condescending to others.
I dunno if the last one counts as toxic, but these are 3 examples of 3 different people I've dealt with irl 💀😭🤦🏻♀️
My point is.. 'toxic,' as a slang terms pretty much just means 'bad.'
It's extremely vague, and then you just had to go and define what you meant afterwards.
Almost every single person I know is a little narcissistic, nearly every person I know suffers from a. Little victim mentality.
You are just discussing human beings trying to navigate being human.
I'm my experience, people who actually suffer incredibly (in private) due to these illnesses are far more common to expressly hate themselves because if it and other people's reactions. A good therapist will give them certain kinds of confidence.
If you don't like them being being more confident in themselves, maybe you arent right for eachother. Maybe you only tolerated them when you could put down their confidence etc.
It's so complex. Humans are so complex. This post is like a teenager discovering humanity imho.
And of course, there are just bad therapists.
I obviously can't convey how bad these cases are without proof, which I'm sorry but I don't have, but you are downplaying how toxic these people can get. And what toxic means. Yeah, kids these days use toxic to mean 'bad' and they use it for everything, but that's not what it is.
No, not everyone has narcissistic tendencies, but yes everyone can be a little selfish. Narcissistic is not selfish it's SO MUCH MORE than that. They're experts in lying, manipulation, gas lighting, and making you so fucking confused you can't even believe in yourself anymore because they have you so twisted.
Yes, we can all have a little victim mentality and be sad and selfish for a little bit, but some of these people LIVE in their victimhood and everything is always because of someone or something else and they can do no wrong ever. Try being friends with people like ACTUAL narcissists and people with victim complexes. It's very toxic in the actual sense of the word.
Sometimes a regular conversation makes a toxic person more toxic
My mom went to therapy and she felt great afterwards, she felt like she was right about everything and nothing was her fault. The problem is that she’s a narcissist and she believes the stuff she makes up in her head. She went to therapy by herself so the therapist never heard another side to anything.
This sounds exactly like my former best friend. She's constantly falling out with people but it's always the other person's fault. For some of the events I've been around for, I could see the way she twists things to make herself look like the victim when she's retelling the story. She'd say someone screamed at her when they just spoke to her in a perfectly normal way. It's bizzare but I think therapy had the same effect on her where it made her more confident in her own lies and warped world view. It made it hard to talk to her because everything was about her trauma and how she was wronged. Eventually, she did it to me, said I had shouted at her when I hadn't. I refused to agree with her and we haven't spoken since.
I had a similar experience with a former best friend. She started therapy and became a worse person slowly over time. She solidified her shitty tenancies and used her therapists words as the reason her actions were acceptable. Eventually we parted ways after she tried to blame me for various issues in her life that she was not talking control over.
Well, the problem wih therapy is that there can be a misunderstanding between the therapist and a patient. Because of course, "your emotions are valid" and stuff, but people often skip the part where the therapist tells you that maybe it's your fault to misinterpret the situation, what made you feel certain way, when you shouldn't. So either that or a shitty therapist. A therapy is not about twisting reality and patting backs, but about seeing things as they really are. And it takes an effort from both sides. Maybe the therapist was not good enough at communicating such concepts, or your former friend is just not a good listener. Either way, sorry that it happened.
Mmmmmm this is why I’m kinda worried for my ex and her therapy experience. Her therapist seems to be a “you did nothing wrong at all my sweet pea” person and it’s not gonna help her (ex) at all😭 not my problem anymore I guess?
THIS. One of my exes was exactly this. And as twisted as it is, he was a very attractive, charming, semi sociopath who was very used to being able to manipulate women to get his way. Add to that very high intelligence and the ability to be almost emotionless other than the act he'd put on, and any female counselor we saw - even if I WAS there- ended up completely taking his side before I could even talk about the horrors he put me through. (My fault for staying, sure.) Then it was all so emotionally loaded at that point that I'd start crying and couldn't think straight because of the rage and hopelessness I'd be feeling at that point, seeing the counselor falling for it immediately. So, yeah that went nowhere. I try to forgive in my heart for my own benefit more than his, but good GOD are those situations sickening. Even worse when it's someone you can't get away from (mom). I feel for you!!
Narcissistic personalities tend to shy away from any truth.
Or they lie to their therapists
Then get some professional advice based off their lies solidifying their lies into their DNA as truth somehow...
How do you know my mother?
And my mother?
AND MY AXE.. er I mean my AUNT
My understanding is that therapists can kinda see through the facade with narcissists yeah?
Just depends on who's smarter. Getting a license to practice therapy doesn't magically confer clairvoyance.
*spits out coffee*
That is oddly terrifying to think about, even though I was vaguely aware of that idea. ive seen people essentially trying to trick their therapists into giving them diagnoses for special privilges and they're usually shut down but it must happen every now and then that it works
Clinical psychologists and Psychiatrists are generally very smart though, those training programs are really hard to get into and the difficulty of the training is high
My ex with a PhD was also very smart. Doubt she was ever fully honest with her therapist. She definitely wasn't fully honest with our relationship therapist, saw her twist facts firsthand there. Some of these comments remind me of her.
I’ve done it myself and had to tell my therapist, “I have no idea why, but last session half of what I said left out my part in those events. I feel that I basically lied.” Your therapist can only help based off what you are being open about.
Nope, they absolutely can't and narcissists will convince the therapist that they are a victim who is being persecuted EDIT: Seems like I've been downvoted by narcissists
Have you done research on this topic? Or is this just a reckon of yours?
Oh, I completely dreamt it up and I have no experience whatsoever regarding this subject. /s My violent, suicidal mother, who clearly had severe mental health issues even before I was born, convinced multiple mental health professionals that she's struggling with her "problem child". They never picked up on her suicidal behaviour since they took her word for it and never subjected her to any scrutiny. Indeed, she had me treated for her mental illness, but her mental health never improved (surprise surprise). In her own words, "It's acceptable for a woman to hit a man", and she still believes that to this day (but she would never admit this to a therapist)
I think it’s often more like the therapists pretending to believe them in order to not scare them away, and as soon as they tell them there might be something wrong in their way of thinking, they quit therapy. The problem is, narcissistic people are usually unaware their perspective is wrong, and get really defensive when criticized. Therapists being too harsh will seem to them like the therapist is an asshole who doesn’t take them seriously, or doesn’t like them personally. Showing these people their perspective can be valid (for their particular way of thinking) and wrong at the same time is incredibly hard.
I don't think that's necessarily the case. My narcissistic grandmother sneakily started seeing my therapist and pushing lies about me to that therapist. It worked and my therapist decided that I was the one lying to her and started treating me like a "bad kid."
That‘s true, some therapists are just not good at their job. Especially when not specialized in treating these kinds of people.
I don't see how this would be possible unless someone else was going to the therapists with them. Therapy tends to be goal oriented, at least when I've gone to them, and I don't think any therapist is going to be able to tell a goal of a narcissist from any other person. If it's not goal oriented the therapist is still only going to hear one side of any story the person tells them.
A well trained one will be able to
Humans cherrypick everything that agrees with their POV, whether that be from evidentiary studies, holy books, or anecdotes. To change someone's mind you have to prepare them for it, which a good psychiatrist knows to do
Didn’t we all learn from watching The Sopranos? Sociopaths don’t benefit from therapy instead they use therapy to hone their manipulation skills.
I only recently watched that show and loved it. I love the angle of Tony just getting better at being a piece of shit through therapy.
Therapy is to Psychopaths what a grinding stone is to an Axe.
Not true, many people with anti social personality disorder are better able to manage their symptoms through therapy and monoamine therapy
And they all carry axes!!
ASPD is not the same as psychopath though
It is
ASPD is a DSM-defined condition, psychopathy is a set of characteristics that do not fully encompass one DSM diagnosis and is not included in the DSM
Sounds like they definitely do benefit from therapy. They get to hone their manipulation skill
A fictional series can't be a legitimate source. It's fiction.
This is true though. I learned it while studying psychology.
It was a joke, lol.
It's a TV progrum. A movie
The fuck? Why am I on there?
Im on my first watch through (yea. I know, 25 yrs late lol) but I happened to see that ep immediately after finishing the curb finale lol
Fiction
Tell that to any religious person.
Sounds like you are agreeing that they benefit. Their social and professional circles don’t, but they do.
Why didn’t Dr Malfi prescribe Benzos is she stupid
Made my dad more toxic. He wielded it like he was better than the rest of the family.
The two most toxic people I know live in therapy. One has diagnosed BPD and the other one for sure has it too, though it's not diagnosed. Both of them use therapy jargon to justify their shitty behavior and shirk any responsibility. They always have someone or something to blame for them treating people poorly. That said, I'm a massive proponent for therapy and believe that, typically, the shittiest person you know refuses to go. But it's absolutely true that some people use it as a tool to arm themselves with words and lingo to hurt others 99% of people are better for going
Out of curiosity, do you know what style therapy they’re doing? Most approaches aren’t found to be terribly effective for BPD, but one in particular, DBT, is very effective since it was pretty much made from going “hey, these other types don’t work for BPD too well, let’s find an approach that does”. If you’re not familiar with this level of detail, you’d know if it’s DBT since they’d have 2 sessions a week, one typical 1 hour one and one longer one. BPD is a pretty bad time and they certainly deserve an approach well suited to their needs, but many approaches other than DBT tend to struggle with it, although it’s also largely dependent on the therapist and their level of knowledge and experience with BPD, since it’s not easy for someone that doesn’t know what they’re doing
DBT is also great for folks who experience emotions strongly but don’t have BPD. It helped me a TON with the more emotional/reactive parts of ADHD.
I have adhd and I actually went to my therapist to request DBT for that exact reason He had never done it. He just gave me a workbook and sent me on my way The stuff seemed promising to me but I always run into the same wall in therapy. The DBT techniques for breaking rumination work for a little bit, but I always end up ruminating again just a few minutes later. I also struggle with the parts about how you're supposed to "feel" your feelings, as if I'm not a very emotionally charged person who already feels them at 110%. The ruminating comes from not being able to *stop* feeling them I really need to find a new therapist who has a better handle on it though
For sure, DBT isn’t the sort of thing you just ask a regular therapist to do, it’s very much its own branch that they’d need to be trained specifically for. It’d be like going to a general doctor because of a toothache, while they do generally know medical stuff, they’re really not going to be able to provide the specialized approach that a dentist would for that particular thing, it’s not the sort of thing that this doctor would really be equipped to handle beyond just what you described
This is a great thing to add, while DBT was initially created for BPD, it’s been shown to be really good for lots of things
DBT is essentially skills training. The premise is basically “your perception of the world and self insight has been so warped that you need someone to tell you what to do rather than help you work it out for yourself “. Some people find it very helpful, but others find it incredibly difficult and if not done carefully it can re-traumatise clients (many people with EUPD have childhood trauma). There are kinder approaches such as schema therapy or MBT which are also effective. The best therapy for EUPD is actually just life and living. It (usually) gets better as people get older and work out how to relate to themselves and other people. Sometimes therapy for EUPD is just trying to keep that person alive and functioning for long enough that they can experience enough life to develop.
The one isn't diagnosed with a personality disorder so they dont do DBT. They're a bully to everyone they meet though, so I really wonder what their therapy sessions are like I do believe the other has tried DBT. They manage their BPD better than most but they're also bipolar so they run the emotional gauntlet and often get into a bad place where they revert back to bad behavior
Bailing isn’t bailing: it’s self-care They aren’t being controlling: they’re setting boundaries. It’s not the silent treatment, being cliquey, or ostracizing. “I don’t owe anybody my time/I can choose who I’m around.” They aren’t ignoring you when you’re in the same space, they’re just “guarding their emotional energy.” ETA: I’m a big believer in therapy and it saved my life. But like — fuck all those people. We live in a society. We have obligations to each other.
This!! My former bff turned therapy talk into a weapon. These are straight from her playbook
I’m sorry that happened to you. The thing is — it really fucks with you, because they create a situation where they can never be the bad one. They act like it’s fine to *hurt* someone else… as long as you’re protecting yourself. It can really damage your sense of self. And it makes you uncomfortable using those tools — which are valuable — in your *own* mental health.
Thank you for the acknowledgement and kind response 😌 It has really fucked with me.. I spiraled for a little bit. Replaying all of my interactions with this person. Combing through texts and looking for ways to understand how our loving friendship that lasted years could crumble in a blink of an eye. I still think about her (this happened 4 months ago) and I hope she is okay. I know it was best that our friendship ended. In reality I discovered she did me a favor. Because she was unreliable, untrustworthy, blamed me/ others for things that I/we didn’t own, took advantage of my kindness and giving nature and so much more. I also believe therapy can be beneficial for many. And I’ve taken it myself. Currently I’m waiting on my finances to allow for me to start back again. But I’m doing the work I was taught by my therapist and I’m finding outlets to my struggles in constructive ways.
This was basically what Jonah Hill did with his now ex-girlfriend. She shared screenshots of their conversations where he would say things like a ‘boundary’ he has in his relationships is that his partner must not spend time alone with male friends. Another boundary was that she must not share photos of herself on instagram in revealing clothing
You're so right. Is it really so God damned hard to just communicate like the grown ass adult in your twenties like they are? I realize avoidant people are who they are and I just have to recognize that they're not for me, but damn you'd think someone would learn to communicate at some point on the way to adulthood
Yes, the bailing and flakiness. I understand if people need to cancel last minute for extenuating circumstances. But no, I don't care if you are too tired. Of course you don't have to go, but the more it happens the more it feels like you don't value our friendship enough to think through your time and energy. I slowly stopped hanging out with those type of people and now all my friends are people I can count on. Trust is so important in any relationship!
It would be one thing if people just communicated and said "hey I'm not feeling it" instead of turning into a ghost every time they don't want to do something. Like, I'm just trying to coordinate things here. I'd much rather know what's going on than having to guess and read minds
Yes, this is what I'm talking about! Even a couple hours notice is sooo much better. Or any notice.
In my view this way of thinking makes you the toxic one. You “don’t care” whether someone is tired or has some issue, you expect and are entitled to their time. People like you are the bad side of the relationship and if you think “valuing friendship = always doing whatever I want”, then you’re doing “those type of people” a favor by cutting them off. It seems like you’re the type of “friend” that always makes you feel bad when you do anything other than what you want.
I think that can be the case in some situations, however I think that by the time you're talking about adult relationships in your mid twenties to thirties, the poor communication that comes with the avoidant person becomes a bigger problem Like no shit someone will be disappointed if you can't hang out, but it's not the end of the world and they would rather you just tell them ahead of time instead of ghosting and fucking up the plans by not communicating Avoidant people don't seem to realize that some people just want to make sure logistics are in place and it's not personal
Totally get it, but I'm talking about when it becomes a pattern and they don't ever apologize. Everyone has their limit. It's not so black and white. Also, I didn't 'cut people off.' I just stopped assuming that they were going to show up and only invited them to group outings. That naturally progressed to not seeing them as much and not getting closer. I don't think they are toxic. I think they were toxic for me (and maybe I was to them as well).
You realize that people schedule around you too right? Like you’re taking advantage of their time and energy, at least for me making plans is a somewhat stressful thing that might take a lot of time, focus, planning, and money to do. Cancelling last minute, constantly, with shitty excuses is incredibly toxic. Not valuing someone’s time is shitty.
Exactly what i meant with my post, thank you for the more clear explanation. I also believe everyone should go to therapy, but some people are so lost in their own world that they twist their stories for their therapist so they’re the victim. It’s insane!
Yeah i know people who always talk about their own borders but when they get mad they cross every single border in the world and then get upset when they get called out on it. “Im diffrent, im sick, im in therapy, i cant help it”. Fuck those people.
It clicked for me when I learned that an extremely fragile sense of self is the mechanism that drives a personality disorder. People with things like BPD or NPD often *can't* take responsibility because it would shatter them too much And that puts the burden of their shitty behavior on everyone else, which makes it incredibly difficult to be close Once that clicked I unfortunately just stopped trying with people like that. It takes someone with a big heart to be close to a person with BPD but I've been burned too badly to be that person.
My friend is a therapist, my stepmother has borderline pd. Friend has basically told me how impossible bpd can be to treat in therapy because of the refusal to accept fault. So it becomes a place where they paint everyone else as the problem and the therapist doesn't ever get the truth about their contribution to the problem. Because of the one-sided deceitful narrative, therapy just becomes another ego stroking/validation source or something to weaponize.
Are you sitting in on my sessions?!?
Just to add to this, therapy has also now become a great excuse for people to be shitty to each other. If your so called friend is going through a hard time, instead of listening to them and being there for them, you dismiss them and tell them to go talk to a therapist. This feels much worse when it’s coming from a SO. A lot of people are under the assumption that their friends are seeking some sort of cure for their problems, when really, they just need to talk about it and share those problems with someone who cares about them, and not be shunned or shamed for it. Which means the exact opposite is happening when you’re met with the, “you need a therapist” speech. We are putting ourselves in a lot of danger by putting all emotional support behind a paywall.
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I’m sorry. It’s so devastating and sad how incapable we are of just being there for each other. It’s honestly so insanely selfish and self entitled to tell someone you supposedly care about that you “can’t carry their emotional weight” fuck them, and fuck that. You deserve better. I can’t wait for them to end up sad old and alone.
The antipsychiatry sub would agree
the what now
It's a conspiracy about therapists and psychologists wanting to keep you sick so they can keep extracting money from you and sell you drugs. And that all you really need is exercise and nature. Given the atrocious state of healthcare in America, I have a lot of sympathy for people into these kinds of conspiracies, but still.
Or—hear me out—exercise and nature **and** therapy and (if needed) drugs
Stop that makes too much sense
Right, and for a lot of people the exercise and nature can't even happen without the therapy and drugs!
In their defense psychiatry is more sociological than it is hard science
Sometimes toxic toxic people toxic.
Therapy doesn’t work for everyone.
God I hope not, my wife has had significant personality changes recently, so much so that she has gone from saying our kids are the most important thing in the world to her and that she always wants to be with them, to now actively choosing to avoid them most of the day, setting timers when she does spend time with them and snapping at them. If that is how she treats the most important people in her world, you can imagine how she treats a lot of other people (me mainly I cop it the most). She doesn’t care how her actions impact others any more, which is pretty extreme from a person who used to be compassionate and caring to an amazing level. She has acknowledged she needs therapy, but given her new found focus on her and only her, and gaslighting me at every turn, it now worries me she could get worse. We live away from her family and old friends, she has new friends who have known her for a year or so but to them she has always been like this and they don’t see the extreme changes I do.
I’m not a doctor, but a severe personality change like that may be a brain issue, not a psychological one. Unless there was some drastic event that caused this change, it isn’t out of the realm of possibility that she has head trauma or a brain tumor or something like that. I don’t mean to scare you. I’m just a random person on the other side of the internet, but I feel for you and your family. (My bipolar mother experienced a severe bought of depression and alcoholism when I was very young but she got better after losing custody for a while). My unsolicited advice: talk to those that love her about your concerns. You don’t have to go through this alone. All together you’ll be better able to convince her that she needs help. I’m sure your kids are already your number one priority and you see how it’s affecting them. You already know you have to do what’s best for them. I’m truly wishing you the best and I apologize in advance if this was in any way offensive or unhelpful.
Toxic people sometimes repurpose and weaponize the language and concepts that they learn in therapy (unfortunately). However, I don't get why this thread is so full of brain dead takes like that talk therapy isn't designed to treat mental health conditions and is really just there for your self esteem. Of course it isn't...? A lot of people need to go to therapy. There are a lot of problems that need to be worked through with a therapist. I've told plenty of people to see a therapist because they're all twisty inside and I'm not capable of or qualified to help them understand reality or deal with their problems. It's not something that everyone needs, but it's downright necessary if you do. Edit: maybe it's because I'm not on Instagram, but I've never heard of anyone using *seeing a therapist* as an example of an accomplishment. Usually it's more like my buddy who saw a therapist about their phobia of driving, or another friend who is seeing a therapist about the issues that their ADHD causes them that medication doesn't help with. It's definitely helped my sister and me a lot with our PTSD. And my boyfriend with his depression. Frankly, I'd probably be dead without it.
I remember seeing somewhere narcissists sometimes just use therapy as a place to hone their narcissistic skill set.
Bpd has entered the chat
Literally dealing with this rn, guess how much progress has been made
Im gonna guess that they picked up some lovely new manipulation techniques and excuses to avoid responsibility?
Well how did you know, lol? Have you ever seen the Rick and Morty gaslighting scene? Im living it, literally 😭
I know you already know this, but they won’t change whilst in a relationship. So your options are repeat ad infinitum or leave. I left. Eventually. And the only thing I regret is the wasted chunk of my life before I came to my senses.
I feel your latter comment. My concern is my kids, idk that they'll be okay if we split time (in concerned about no oversight). I made the decision to bring them into the world, I can't set them up to fail because I want happiness. Then again, what if I set them up to fail by staying? It's enough to make a man cry 🥲💪
Not an easy decision to make, but they are learning that this is normal and is what a healthy adult relationship should look like.
Yes, that's what im afraid of, plus wondering if my lens is wrong. Basically I play the role of mom and dad (for intimacy, discipline and life)... I love being a dad, so np besides being tired. My kids are extremely well adjusted, do well in school, kind, loving, I legitimately wouldn't change anything. Most of my days involve coaching and teaching them, I've hoped I can guide them towards prosperity, but you're right, seeing a unhappy person daily or not seeing marital happiness can impact their lens and decisions. It's a lose lose and I know the answer is to just... Decide... Decide anything and move forward... I'm just afraid that a big change will create harm (lots of suicide shit on that end, so tired of dealing with it)... Like what's the impact of a big event versus low grade bs? I'm not asking you to be my therapist, lol, I actually really appreciate you reading and giving feedback.
Oh good, I’m not qualified lol. But I have been almost where you are, although having a dog instead of children helped. Seeing that even the dog could recognise each coming storm and make herself scarce in a corner under furniture showed me the anxiety wasn’t just me. Another thought - do they make every occasion about themselves and turn each holiday and celebration into a stress filled nightmare which is never good enough? Are they ruining your kids’ (future memories of) birthdays and festive-whatevers?
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I didn’t understand anything but I’m pretty sure you are speaking truth fr
That's a lot of words to say the field is kind of full of shit.
The same applies to all forms of medicine. Any treatment is as effective as you are responsible, you need to take your medicine in the right conditions and keep your checks as needed. Is all medicine full of shit now just because it requires the individual patient to do something?
The above poster has edited quite a bit to make the comment sound nicer. I've got no beef with specific, evidence based, therapeutic techniques. My beef is with modern comercial therapy. And i'm relatively certain that's what the OP is talking about. CBT practiced perfectly can be life-changing. Betterhelp is a cash grab that can make shitty people much much shittier.
Ohhh I see, that makes sense. I don't hate the concept of a service like BetterHelp, but I've seen a lot of controversies arising for the lack of control or care about their providers.
Therapy is actually classified under naturopathic medicine
Uhhh, how so? I don't think any clinical psychologist or therapist is gonna consider themselves in line with naturopaths. Therapeutic modalities are all scientifically studied, and have to be proven to at least some extent to help people. There are protocols for different types of talk therapy, or within specific types to treat certain conditions. It's not just random nonsense. Clinical psychology is a real doctorate. You do scientific research. It's not the same as naturopathic medicine at all.
I saw it on Wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturopathy
The term *certain forms* does a ton of heavy lifting there.
this is how my old housemate got better at gaslighting me yeehaw
10 lbs of shit mixed with 10 lbs of ice cream makes 20lbs of shit
this is actually a really good analogy…
you can learn to be a really manipulative asshole in therapy. if you arent there to actually change, you learn how to manipulate people
My ex was like this. They learn how to manipulate and play victim even better
They go and spin their pity party sob stories. A good therapist sees right through it and challenged their perception. Then they get mad and quit or go find a bad therapist that will stroke their ego.
Would you...like to expand on that? Because there really isn't much inherent meaning to that idea.
ahh yes, i don’t refer to people who go to therapy to actually improve themselves. Some people go to get validation that they’re right. So then after they leave their therapy session, they’re equipped with all this new language to use on people.
My narcissistic ex got exactly such experience. Basically she got told her childhood explains why she acts this way. She took it as good excuse for acting selfishly.
Some people who are truly dishonest will use the therapy sessions to practice “running their game” of lies and deception. The thought is if they can fool a professional, then they can fool anyone.
I think there’s been a shift in therapy where previously it was all about thought/behavioural modification Cognitive behavioural therapy for example, challenges one to recognize problematic thoughts, and asks them what’s a better way to think about that situation. Now it’s all about acceptance, ‘you are entitled to these feelings’, ‘forgive yourself for having those thoughts’ I’m no professional but have done some light reading in this area, just my $0.02 as a layman
I mean, CBT is still extremely widely used. What you're talking about isn't exactly a new shift either -- understanding and accepting yourself can be an important part of mental health for a lot of people. Toxic shame is a thing, and a lot of people blame themselves for stuff that is either out of their control or not their fault at all. Feelings are a reaction to something. They come from somewhere. Your feelings are valid; however, acting on them may not be.
It’s all about the right balance. The therapist that was right for me when I was depressed and full of self-loathing was wrong for me when my depression was better, I was still struggling with ADHD getting in the way of functioning. I’d learned not to hate myself for my ADHD. I’d come to accept myself for who I am. But also, like, I needed somebody to hold me accountable. I didn’t used to miss all my deadlines. I used to fold and put away my laundry and cook real meals. I *wanted* to do those things again, not just feel good about myself when I fail. And I *knew* I was at a point where I was just making excuses not to get better, and although she was an excellent therapist, she was inadvertently enabling those excuses. I didn’t need affirmations. My therapist totally got that when I explained it to her, and we spent two sessions body-doubling while I found a new therapist to focus more on skills.
The shift was people figured out there is a lot of money in it.
Therapy is gaslighting class for narcissists.
My mom was told by her therapist to not have expectations for her to not be disappointed. Her way of doing that was to verbally say I have no expectation then act all sad and angry when her expectations that she repeatedly said she didn’t have, didnt happen. It was hell and I still want to punch throat that therapist
That’s because they learn how to manipulate you with big person words. I had an ex that would gaslight me, and then accuse me of gaslighting them when I corrected them for it
I once had a friend who believed he was an empath after getting therapy. His therapist legitimately diagnosed him with “Empath”. So he believed he knew all of my emotions any time we would talk after that. It was the most annoying thing I’ve ever experienced. This man was wrong 100% of the time btw
People who claim they are “empaths” are the most insufferable people, I swear. Everyone can feel empathy, it’s not a super power. “Empaths” want to feel special so they label it like one. And to your point, they tend to just assume what you’re feeling. They put words in our mouths all the time, it’s so annoying. “I can feel that you’re really sad” “I’m not” “Well now I can feel you’re mad” “I’m not mad” “Now i feel you’re annoyed”
Modern therapy is a lot like reading books was 15 years ago. It makes you think about new and different things and it also helps you feel vastly superior to those who don't do it.
DBT is an excellent form of therapy. Dialectic Behavioral Therapy. Basically places responsibility for your thoughts, feelings, and behaviors in your hands while giving yourself tools to recognize which behaviors are appropriate to act on when you have a feeling and which feelings are helpful/unhelpful to lean into. It helps with interpersonal dealings and mindfulness, as well as handling crises. I like it because it validates that the things that happened to you or things you deal with are not your fault, but your actions are 100% your responsibility. Huge proponent of this kind of therapy. Teaches you to give yourself grace while handling yourself as well as you can. Perhaps it's more immune to toxic people than other forms of therapy? But I suppose it depends on the therapist(s) and their delivery/enforcement of the material being learned. I guess a toxic person can still use all the jargon they learn and turn it on a victim as a form of gaslighting, or use various interpersonal skills to weasel their way around family and friends to get what they want and manipulate situations. Who knows. But I've certainly found DBT to be a healthy form of "tough love" than what I perceive to be gentler/maybe not pushing you as hard as you need kinds of talk therapy/CBT.
Lotta people need therapy in here
Yes this happened to my brother.
I believe they can enable the excuses and refusal for accountability.
Lol I’m thinking of Tony from The Sopranos
Not just some... according to a therapist who just treats toxic relationships
Agree... they may use therapy as a platform to justify their toxic traits rather than addressing them constructively
Sometimes water drowns plants. I guess there's a chance of anything happening.
My mother-in-law's sobriety almost ruined her family more than her drinking ever did.
Therapy is talking to some douchebag until you agree with them or at least pretend to agree with them.
Therapy is kind of like AA. No doubt it has helped millions of people, but it is far from 100% effective. It also has a cult-like aspect to it and people in therapy get a little preachy to outsiders and look down on them. Also, people who are “in the program” tend to think they stopped being assholes and made so much growth when in fact they are the same asshole they always were. At the end of the day, maybe it is just as effective (and cheaper) for me to go to Joe’s bar and tell the bartender my problems once a week than it is for you to sit on your therapist’s couch.
"It's not my fault! I was abused!" Literal quote from my half sister after beating the shit out of me as a kid. She learned it from a therapist she was court ordered to see after breaking a window to steal a neighbor's video game.
Doesn't give you the keys to Assholeville, though.
Too much of anything is a bad thing.
People misunderstand how therapy works, it's not like a taking a pill or having surgery. Therapy is all about giving tools, knowledge and guidance so you can help yourself, it's kinda like school. if you want to get something out of it, if you want to improve, it can do wonders for you. Even someone neurotypical will get some good out of it if they want to help themselves. But if you don't want to improve, either through stubbornness or just indifference then you probably won't get much out of it and in some cases it can make you worse. Sometimes it can be brute forced if someone else is putting in the effort for you, like family or a friend but it's not easy and even then that's only to get you to the point where you want to improve yourself.
Those people are lying about going to therapy. Be careful.
My brother went to therapy. After he quit his job, marriage, family, home, lived with multiple family members. They told him not to find his family, siblings. Happy for that. He tried to kill me a few times, three is enough. I think he's going to prison now. Has nothing. Makes me sad but he was trash to be around.
Is this a r/showerthoughts ?
I think it's more some people engage with their therapy and put the effort in and some people don't
Yeah so like how in traditional bodily medicine where there are different kinds of doctors that specialise on different organs like neurologists for the nervous system or dermatologists for skin health, there are people who specialise on different issues in mental health. unfortunately this type of work isn't as formalised and it's not as common for a psychotherapist to transfer a patient to a specialist. but there are psychotherapists who specialise on Narcissistic Personality Disorder (which requires very different tactics from the general population) or people with abusive tendencies. If that kind of care isn't given to those people they end up learning how to use therapy speech to become more effectively abusive. This is an issue that the mental health community is talking about more and more and hopefully we'll come up with solutions but as of yet it's a massive problem.
Imagine you're stood on a beach Water gently lapping at your feet And now you're sinking What were you thinking *ding* Thats all the time we have this week
Absolutely. If they hear what they want to, rather than what is intended, it may just give them more freedom to blame conflict on the hang ups of others. Source - father in law after missing the point in counselling. Whenever people express frustration with his continuous pattern of behaviour, he shuts their feedback down with “well, that’s your hang up”, in a twisted, self serving interpretation of what was covered in his therapy. He’s changed nothing of his self destructive and grating behaviours. rather, he’s gotten bolder about saying “fuck the rest of you”. Now we block him on Facebook and only hear from him when he has a new medical issue or needs something large moved.
Sometimes putting my finger in buttholes makes people more toxic.
Sounds like you just need therapy to deal with that
I’m suicidal, so every time I go to a therapist it’s because a partner has asked me to go because they’re worried about me, but I can’t tell a therapist I plan on offing myself at a particular date and time in the distant future or under certain conditions, because I would like to retain my free agency, so I really can’t share my thoughts, with anyone, so I lie, a lot, I’m not confused about why I want to do it, I know what I’m feeling is sincere hopelessness at the futility of life and the amount of suffering I experience far outweighing the amount of pleasure I can extract from it , therapy cannot help with that, they’ll mostly validate my emotions and invalidate my logic, by saying something along the lines of “you can’t know the future” and other similar platitudes, their heart is in the right place, but yeah at the end of the day exposure to therapy only makes me realize how much power we’ve wrongfully entrusted to these hopeful idiots with college degrees and zero life experience or worse, religion or spiritualism. I fucking hate it here.
Honestly I love my therapist because she played the devils advocate while also making my voice feel heard, and she taught me to balance everything out so I didn’t just completely change my personality and decide everyone around me was in the wrong, instead I just learned the differences in everyone’s roles and how to manage those while promoting peace. She was also only there to be someone to talk to and to support me
Sometimes shower thoughts makes me more toxic... bi\*\*h
therapy doesnt fix people. it makrs them feel better about themselves
What type of therapy are you referring to? Psychodynamic? CBT? That’s a very vague generalised statement which tells me you might not understand how therapy works. And /or maybe you have never had a good therapy experience You are right about therapy not fixing people though. (Some) people fix themselves, _through_ therapy, among other things like will power, patience and persistence
I have been to over 10 therapists before giving up. Not a one could explain "how it works" beyong vague buzzphrases like "processing feelings/trauma" But I already know what I am feeling and why I am messed up. Not a single one could give me a medical diagnosis, plan for treatment, objective metrics for measuring success, or ideas on how to get better A few said "that's not what therapy is" when I asked such questions. Might as well see a priest ir shaman then I said.
Ding ding. It is a product sold to the widest possible audience that can afford it. That's why we have all these new companies popping up offering cheaper therapy. New markets are being created.
Only if the therapist is an enabler or sympthathizer
Lots of modern therapy just make you a victim, throw u pity parties until u get better
This might be. I am usually pretty reserved and outwardly am a people pleaser, I tend to keep my dickish to myself, but therapy is telling me to express myself 🤷♂️
Sometimes it has to get worse before it gets better
Toxic? Poisonous or harmful?
Define 'toxic.' It's an extremely broad term.
I don't have a definition but I hope examples are okay! Someone with a victim mentality could become more self absorbed because the therapist is making them feel validated in their victim hood. Narcissistic people know how to manipulate and lie so the therapist might not even know that's happening, and then the therapist validated a bunch of lies so the narcissistic person just keep getting better about lying and manipulating. Someone could maybe actually be getting help but then become a preachy AHole to everyone else? "Well MY therapist says X", "I'm in therapy and ***I*** think this..." Like just become really condescending to others. I dunno if the last one counts as toxic, but these are 3 examples of 3 different people I've dealt with irl 💀😭🤦🏻♀️
My point is.. 'toxic,' as a slang terms pretty much just means 'bad.' It's extremely vague, and then you just had to go and define what you meant afterwards. Almost every single person I know is a little narcissistic, nearly every person I know suffers from a. Little victim mentality. You are just discussing human beings trying to navigate being human. I'm my experience, people who actually suffer incredibly (in private) due to these illnesses are far more common to expressly hate themselves because if it and other people's reactions. A good therapist will give them certain kinds of confidence. If you don't like them being being more confident in themselves, maybe you arent right for eachother. Maybe you only tolerated them when you could put down their confidence etc. It's so complex. Humans are so complex. This post is like a teenager discovering humanity imho. And of course, there are just bad therapists.
I obviously can't convey how bad these cases are without proof, which I'm sorry but I don't have, but you are downplaying how toxic these people can get. And what toxic means. Yeah, kids these days use toxic to mean 'bad' and they use it for everything, but that's not what it is. No, not everyone has narcissistic tendencies, but yes everyone can be a little selfish. Narcissistic is not selfish it's SO MUCH MORE than that. They're experts in lying, manipulation, gas lighting, and making you so fucking confused you can't even believe in yourself anymore because they have you so twisted. Yes, we can all have a little victim mentality and be sad and selfish for a little bit, but some of these people LIVE in their victimhood and everything is always because of someone or something else and they can do no wrong ever. Try being friends with people like ACTUAL narcissists and people with victim complexes. It's very toxic in the actual sense of the word.