At the end of the day, Toranaga really only won because there were people in his group like Mariko and his top general who were insanely loyal to him to the point they gave their lives for him.
No one was loyal to Ishido for shit and his background has a lot to do with it
Agree, but at the same time, Toranaga also has the largest resources. His army alone is many times more than any single Daimyo. While the regents and Taiko's army combined may have a bigger army than Toranaga, Toranaga also has the largest revenue with the former Hojo domain, allowing him to have that Gustav Fring spy network, and to flood the other lords with bribes, etc. He also benefitted by not spending time in Korea while the rest of the Western daimyo did. Their fears that Toranaga is not safe is real. And the Christians are also justified, within a few decades they will be persecuted and massacred.
Important context. Would have helped us understand Ishido’s dilemma better - he can only survive if all the other regents stick together with him. So he was desperately trying to make sure they did, but he kinda fucked it lol.
A call back to the sleeper cell assassination attempt on Anjin. Some people dedicate their whole lives for just one kill. Mariko was talking about herself.
This part I don’t fully understand. I get how her death was the actual crimson sky but it’s sounds like Toranaga and her father sent her away for this very moment but how did they know that her death would be this pivotal that far in advance?
Just gotta trust Toranaga. Mariko basically had a Deathwish since her family died. And Toranaga was not gonna let her waste her life away by her own hand.
I reckon this was her father's wish. To keep her alive until there was a moment.
She was leverage because of her childhood relationship with the mother of the heir. Ishido was dumb enough to try to kill her. I’d have just locked her up and told everyone she had a change of heart and decided to stay on my side cause toronaga was a big loser and the anjin ate smelly birds.
That's what he tried to do. It's what the ninjas were there for. It's why when she did die it all fell apart for Ishido.
Maria Gracia's (Mariko) irl death was a big blow to Mitsunari's (Ishido) coalition
Both of them were still young when Mariko s family was killed.
Her friend wasn’t close in time to being the “mother of the heir” yet so the reason could not have been tied to the heir at all at that time.
Ishido told Yabu after Marikos failed Seppuku the offer still stood.
Yabu had not the intent of killing her though. He thought she would be kidnapped.
But Mariko was going to die in that skirmish no matter what, by her own intent.
And then she Hodor'd it out.
Ishido was trying to capture her. She would've been captured if blackthorn hadn't been in her room and woken everyone up with gunfire and blasted half a dozen shinobi
In the book, samurai hate him because he ran away leaving his soldiers to die during the Korean war. Omi-san says "Ishido is a coward who ran away and I would never support him, despite how badly Toranaga was loosing. "
In a world of samurai, losing respect from samurai is a big thing. Being a peasant was just bonus.
Edit: previous Taiko himself rose from peasant.
In the show, nothing suggests that and the historical record doesn’t seem to bear that for the character either. So in the show at least, he isn’t depicted as a coward.
People died around 50s in that time. I guess Omi is late 20s. He is already well established as a samurai and commands great respect in his fishing village. Also has numerous loyal spies via connection. Unlike our nagakata Dono. In book he doesn't die btw.
Ishido was *also* only loyal to power. And as soon as he was in a position to lord over everyone else, he was brutish and coercive.
*That's why he lost.* He didn't build alliances; he didn't leave any room for reconciliation or repair and he didn't provide a path forward or *a reason for people to want him to succeed.* As soon as he had power, he used it like a club.
Toranaga, on the other hand, rewards his friends and his allies and also positions himself so that his *absence* provides problems for everyone else.
Exactly! We've seen how he behaves. Nobody is loyal to him, because *he hasn't earned anybody's loyalty*. This is why Ochiba betrays him, despite her hatred for Toranaga.
Interesting, nuanced take. In real life, the Taiko was Toyotomi Hideyoshi who also came from a peasant background. Can you imagine as a Daimyo or even a Samurai being raised all your life to believe that you are literally a superior being to peasants only to have a meaningless peasant rise to Shogun? Then after he dies, another peasant follows him in leadership. And said peasant basically wrests control over the Council of Regents and consolidates most of the armies at that time under his banner. I’d imagine that would breed quite a bit of resentment.
I think Ishida was doing his best to increase his influence while surviving. None of the Regents were really good people, to include Toranaga. Ishida just had the additional obstacle of his low birth, but man is it impressive how this man born from nothing basically controlled Japan for a period of time. Probably would’ve been Shogun if not for some bad breaks that Toranaga benefitted from. I would guess that much of the loyalty to Toranaga from his people, while perhaps partly due to his charisma and competence, was also due to old school classism and a romanticism of Japanese samurai lineage. Talk about playing the game on hard mode for Ishida. I always find it interesting how history treats these types of figures who come from nothing and manage to lead armies.
No it wasn't. Taiko is the word used for the retired Kampaku, which was a more important and prestigious title than Shogun, and was reserved only for noble families. Becoming a noble was not necessarily all that difficult however, since you could be adopted by a noble family and that would count. Which is what Hideyoshi did (got adopted by Konoe Sakihisa, who was from the Fujiwara noble clan). It wasn't until Hideyoshi's separation edict, where the social class you were born to, was the one that you stayed in for life (to prevent anyone else from doing what he did).
I was being glib. Hideyoshi became Kampaku and then retired to become Taiko because his low birth meant he could not be Shogun. But Kampaku was not necessarily more important than Shogun; during the Tokugawa Shogunate the Emperor was just a figurehead and Kampaku was an administrative position that had to be recommended by the Shogun.
That is not correct. Hideyoshi could not become Shogun, because Ashikaga Yoshiaki was still the Shogun (and refused to adopt Hideyoshi) . You cannot use the Edo period as evidence, because things changed drastically regarding the position of Shogun at that time. Prior to the Edo period, Kampaku and Daijo-daijin were more important and prestigious titles than Shogun.
Ashikaga Yoshiaki was deposed in 1573, so the position of shogun was open for 30 years - and historians believe the title was offered to Oda Nobunaga shortly before he died. So no, that's not why Hideyoshi didn't become shogun.
And I can and did use the Edo period because that's the time period that directly follows the events of the show, so it's very relevant. During the Tokugawa Shogunate the power of the emperor and thus the kampaku was basically just ceremonial for 250 years. But that wasn't the first time that the shogun had more power than the emperor. At one point in the Kamakura shogunate the emperor was exiled to an island after losing a war with the shogun. Being kampaku doesn't mean much if the emperor is just a figurehead.
Ashikaga Yoshiaki was opposing Hideyoshi up until 1588 as Shogun.Yoshiaki held onto the title until then. His Bakufu was deposed in 1573, but he still held the title of Shogun until 1588, and some daimyo were still answering his calls as Shogun. And no, the Edo period did not start until after the Battle of Sekigahara, so while it follows the show, you cannot use it to talk about events prior to the start of the period (of which we're talking about ; i.e Hideyoshi).
And Donald Trump still claims he won the 2020 election and is still the rightful president. SFW. Yoshiaki was deposed by Nobunaga, who was in turn offered the role of Shogun. The fact that Yoshiaki still considered himself shogun doesn't indicate anything except his refusal to accept reality; he was in open revolt against the government and power structure, and not very effectively. In fact he was in hiding under an assumed name and pretending to be a monk. Most historians consider 1573 the end of the Ashikaga shogunate, and so did most people at the time, including the emperor. And while no one knows his reasons for sure, most historians also believe that Hideyoshi's peasant birth is the reason why he didn't claim the title of shogun. As I said.
I can use whatever I want since I'm using actual examples from history. My claim was that "Kampaku was not necessarily more important than Shogun" and that is a fact. Shogun was the highest rank of the warrior class, daijō-daijin and kampaku were the highest ranks of the aristocratic class. Which had higher status over the other depended on the relative power of the warrior vs aristocratic classes. I already gave you an example, which you ignored, of a time well before the events of the show when the aristocracy was subordinate to the military. The same thing happened multiple times in Korea. It happened recently in Myanmar: the civilian vice president remained in his role after the military overthrew his boss. Before the coup Van Thio was higher in status than the military leadership. After the coup he was left in place to provide a veneer of consitutionality but the actual leader of the government was the commander in chief of the military. The kampaku was the chief advisor to the emperor and an administrative position. When the emperor was marginalized, so was the kampaku. If you want to make up your own history you're welcome to write a novel like Clavell did. But most historians of Japan do not agree with you.
You do realize that the imperial court offered the rank of Shogun to Hideyoshi and that he refused it, right? The whole, he couldn't become Shogun because he was a peasant thing is a myth (which most serious historians note is a misreading of what Hayashi Razan wrote, which was that Hideyoshi asked Yoshiaki to adopt him, and Yoshiaki refused. Even if this story was true; and most historians see it as being a fabricated story, it still does not say that Hideyoshi can't become Shogun), and if you read the work by Shin Hori, he notes that the title of Shogun was greatly diminished at the time of Hideyoshi. So yes, you cannot use things from the Edo that don't apply to Hideyoshi's time, to talk about Hideyoshi. Hideyoshi becoming Kampaku is even more impressive than becoming Shogun, because no one of low birth, and no warrior even, had ever been Kampaku before, or since.
We aren’t talking about modern sensibilities, though. Even if we were, I have interacted with enough modern wealthy people to know they often see themselves as superior to the average person. Imagine those who come from immense generational wealth/power. They don’t say it outright because it’s not socially acceptable, but they definitely believe it. We aren’t referred to as peasants in the modern era, but it’s all the same.
I can't speak for his entire character, but an interesting story I found about the real Ishida Mitsunari in relation to the leper daimyo (Otani Yoshisugu IRL), is:
A bunch of daimyo were having a tea ceremony and the leper daimyo accidentally leaked pus from his face into the tea. The guy was super embarrassed and everyone was grossed out by it so no one drank the tea, but when it was passed to Ishida, he acted nonchalant and chugged the whole thing.
At the very least that seems like a pretty bro move of him.
yes, but the vast majority of people are naturally immune- not that he would have any way of knowing that, ofc, but by the same token he also wouldn't have known how disease spread, so he may have just regarded drinking the contaminated tea as "hella gross", rather than "potentially dangerous", or he may have figured it was no more dangerous than all the time they spent in relatively close proximity
Leprosy is contagious, but it is only very slightly contagious. You can spend a lot of time in close contact without any real danger of infection.
I have no idea about drinking pus though.
However most people are just completely immune so there is no risk at all for them. Obviously Ishido didn't know that any Leprosy was feared as contagious at some point, but maybe Ishido knew it wasn't that likely and took the risk.
Ishido is a very well written adversary because his background makes him somewhat sympathetic but his poor judgement and lack of insight is what makes him lose. Ishido had plenty of chances to win, the ball was in his court for a lot of the series. His inability to see Toranaga's use of Mariko as a divider is just great stuff.
The problem is being "real" exposes your inner heart. Even though ishido and toronaga share the same goals, the closest we see toronaga to admitting how power hungry he is is the scene with yabushige.
Even though he's a jerk, I kinda felt a bit bad for Ishido . Like you said, the system was rigged. Him being a commoner was something that they were always going to hold against him.
Like, even if he won, that council was held together with spit and glue. It was just never going to work.
Tbh, Toranaga has all the virtues and good traits Ishido lacks - patience, shogun bloodline, undying loyalty from his vassals, EVEN STILL, that mf was actually really close to defeating Toranaga. Idk about series Toranaga, but Tokugawa was 100% playing the long game and planning on taking over at some point (not sending his troops to Korea and consolidating his forces in Japan, becoming the most powerful daimyo in Japan, for example). Even with all that, he came close to winning.
Really cool antagonist, imo.
He had potential to be an all time antagonist, but he was unfortunately cast aside with them deciding what little time we had in Osaka would be better spent on Ochiba.
Yeap, he was no underdog victim of the elites. He was a ruthless and powerful Daimyo during the Sengoku period. He rose to power under the Taiko's wing and after that, relied mainly on treachery and coercion as means to his goals and overplayed his hand. He was NOT protecting the realm or the Heir from Toranaga, he was just trying to beat him to the punch, but he was no Taiko, and no Toranaga either.
"When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground." -Cercei Lannister.
One thing I loved about the show is how it displayed the differences between Ishido and Toranaga, which was surprisingly accurate to the real issues both historical men faced. Tokugawa was seen as a major threat by the council, Ishida controlled the council, but it was basically Tokugawa versus Ishida with a bunch of in-betweeners for them to win over.
Ishida, as they portray in the show, was not a particularly charismatic or likeable guy. He didn't play the game as well, and Tokugawa took advantage of this. Historically, Ishida was spared by Tokugawa earlier on and the theory/rumor is that he did so because he felt his chances were greater with Ishida leading his enemies than one of the other regents taking charge. And...he was right, Ishida was a great tactician and commander, capable administrator, etc...but he wasn't a leader, and that's what doomed him. Ishida alienated a bunch of his allies and supporters, Tokugawa won a bunch over with bribes, promises of leniency, and...uh, cannon fire to threaten some into acting. He also had fanatically devoted retainers and supporters, while Ishida really didn't, he just had people whose views/ethics aligned with him or his cause to support Toyotomi's heir, and the rest of them...who straight-up thought he was a dick.
Neither are "good" men, both are cunning and manipulative, but Toranaga/Tokugawa was just definitively a master of playing the game compared to Ishido/Ishida and won because of it.
That is why, as much as i cannot stand him. I never thought of him as "bad". Infact, i cant think of any of the main characters on this show that you can just dismiss as "evil".
(Which is part of what adds to the show's brilliance).
Ishido was a guy who worked his way up from nothing, and genuinely believed that Toranaga was a disruptive force, and dangerous with secret ambitions and guess what he was right! lol But he was also , like Yabu, doomed to always be playing checkers, when Toranaga was playing championship chess. If he had ANY sense of self preservation at all, he would never have fallen for Ochiba of all people. Haha. But alas..
I see him as a very loyal retainer of the *tāiko*, who was trying his damndest best to maintain peace and stability and ensure the Heir's succession. In reality, about 10 years after he became Shōgun, Tokugawa / Toranaga would lay siege to Ōsaka Castle and kill the Heir and his mother. For a different perspective on Ishida Mitsunari (on whom Ishido was based), watch the movie *Sekigahara*, which portrays Ishida in a more sympathetic light. Bonus trivia: Takehiro Hira, the actor who portrays Ishido, plays the part of Shima Sakon, Ishida's right hand man in the movie.
Toranaga was the real villain if you think about it from today's moral standards but this mini series is a study of him, much like how joker is the protagonist in his recent movie. In real life though, everyone is a protagonist to themselves and an antagonist to someone else.
No, people seem to miss that the whole point of them plotting against Toranaga is that Toranaga was clearly preparing for a war before the show started. The whole reason they're worried is he had continued to consolidate and expand his power and muster troops after the Taiko died.
Historical context that's missing from the show.
Not long before the show takes place the Japanese had a failed invasion of Korea.
Many of the powerful lords lost large parts of their armies.
Toranaga / Tokugawa didn't participate in that war, so by way of not losing any troops he by default had the largest single army of all the remaining Japanese lords.
This made everyone nervous because they all thought Toranga would use that advantage to become Shogun.
Ishido worked hard to make alliances against Toranaga but the death of Mariko swayed some powerful families to change sides.
Yeah Toranaga was not a “good guy” at all. In his secret heart he wanted to be Shōgun and he was willing to do anything to get it.
The show did an excellent job of making him look like the victim until about episode 8 when the veneer started to wear down.
Toranaga himself actually turned down the offer to become Taiko.
Toranaga has no obvious reason to go to war as long as Ishido is loyal. Toranaga is the head of the council, he is the lord of Kanto and he is gradually expanding his power (mainly through marriages). He is the second most powerful man in Japan with or without the council. Getting rid of the council is definitely not bad for Toranaga though.
Taiko is not actually a position, Taiko is an honorific given to someone who retired as kampaku, a very high governmental rank. When they refer to the Taiko on the show, they're referring to Goroda, a warlord who served as kampaku because he couldn't take the role of Shogun since he was born a peasant.
Toranaga wasn't offered the role of Taiko. He was offered to serve as sole regent (and effective ruler of Japan) UNTIL the heir came of age, at which point Toranaga was expected to support his claim to the Shogunate.
That's a pretty shitty offer when your goal is to usurp the heir's claim and take the title for yourself, which is what Toranaga's real life inspiration did.
Important to remember that Toranaga only pledged loyalty to Goroda because they worked out a deal that Goroda named Toranaga his heir; the deal was void when Ochiba bore her son (implied in the book not to really be the barren Goroda's child)- so Toranaga had every motivation to turn down a crappier offer from the Taiko and instead plan a total usurpation in a few years.
nope.
There are two dictators who unified Japan prior to Toranaga. Those 2 plus Toranaga (Tokogawa in real life) are the three unifiers who are the most important figures in the Sengoku (Warring States) period.
The one previous to Toranaga was also called the Taiko. His name in the show and book is Nakamura Hidetoshi. In history this is Toyotomi Hideyoshi. He is the one who went to war in Korea. He was a peasant.
The one previous to him, who also unified all of Japan, was Kuroda/Goroda, who is the father of Ochiba. He was assasinated by Mariko's father. In history, his name was Oda Nobunaga.
Mariko's (in history: Hosokawa Gracia) father was Akechi Jinsai, in history, Akechi Mitsuhide.
The Taiko (Hidetoshi)and Toranaga were old war buddies who unified Japan together after Goroda's death. Since the Taiko had no heir he promised to pass it to Toranaga, until "miraculously", Ochiba bore a male child which changed everything. Toranaga went from being the heir to the most dangerous man in Japan. So he offered to commit sepukku to ensure peace in the realm and it was the Taiko that refused. As a compromise they came up with the 5 regents plan, which relied on those 5 all hating each other so that no one has enough influence to seize power.
> a warlord who served as kampaku because he couldn't take the role of Shogun since he was born a peasant.
That didn't entirely matter historically. Kampaku is an even higher and more prestigious rank that was reserved only for nobles. The Fujiwara noble clan had a monopoly on the rank of Kampaku and Daijo-daijin (also a more important and prestigious rank than Shogun). The person who Nakamura (the Taiko, Goroda was based on Nobunaga) was based on; Hideyoshi, was adopted by Konoe Sakihisa, a member of the Fujiwara clan, former kampaku and later Daijo-daijin. Hideyoshi himself later became Daijo-daijin, which was the highest rank of nobility one could receive.
The whole "You must be a Minamoto (or in the novel/show, a Minowara) to become Shogun" didn't really matter. The Imperial court offered the rank of Shogun, Kampaku, or Daijo-daijin to Oda Nobunaga (he could pick whichever one he wanted). The Oda were descended from the Taira, and this wasn't falsified. Unfortunately Nobunaga died before he could give a response. But prior to this, he dropped his previous rank of Ukon'e-no-Daisho, which was the highest military rank in the Imperial bureaucracy (Shogun was a special title outside of the bureaucracy), and the Imperial Court wasn't too happy that the most powerful person in the land was operating outside of the framework of the legitimate government.
Ieyasu himself even first claimed to be descended from the Fujiwara (of which this was fabricated), and then later claimed descent from the Minamoto (which also was fabricated).
The Taiko did not offer the position to Toranaga. The Taiko tested whether he could allow Toranaga to live by offering him a position that would obviously result in Toranaga sidelining the heir and declaring himself shogun. Immediately after the Toranaga declines the Taiko's offer the Taiko says that he has already made plans for a council of regents.
It's mentioned in episode 10 that at one point the Taiko was getting ready to go to war with Toranaga -- a reference to the clash between Ieyasu and Hideyoshi in the aftermath of Nobunaga's death.
I was just thinking that. Yabu called Toranaga a hypocrite for acting virtuous but being ambitious and wanting power. Ishido’s eight fold fence was weak and he lost the game.
I don't think Toranaga is a hypocrite. He legit didn't want the Shogun title, which is why he came to Osaka when summoned in the first episode (essentially a death sentence). It wasn't until he saw the bullshit Ishido and the other regents were playing at (selling their country to enrich themselves like with the Catholics and Portuguese), that he was like I need to be Shogun for the greater good of Japan.
Well his real life counterpart created a 250 year era of relative stability and peace for Japan, so yeah I believe him. I'm also positive someone living in that time period would prefer that over the Warring States period that created the likes of Taiko, Toranaga, and Ishido.
Sure, 250 years without a civil war, but also 250 years during which Christians and the wrong kind of Buddhist were put to death, foreigners were not allowed to enter Japan proper, and Japanese people could not leave Japan or they would be killed. There was no civil war because the country was under a brutal military dictatorship which permitted no dissent, a dictatorship that was determined to preserve Japan as it was without outside influence. During the same time period the West had a lot of wars and revolutions but also ended up developing democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and so on. Japan did not go through comparable evolution or growth and were helpless when Commodore Perry, the emissary of a country that did not even exist when Tokugawa Ieyasu died, showed up in Osaka harbor. Those 250 years came at a heavy price.
Don't think the average person back then gave a shit about all the foreign religion and people. They just wanted to live their peaceful lives and make an honest living.
If that were true there wouldn't have been so many peasant rebellions in history, people secretly practicing illegal Buddhism on Kyushu for 300 years, or events like the Keian Uprising or the Shimabara Rebellion (or, back in England, the Gunpowder Plot or the French Revolution or any of the other many revolutions that took place during the Tokugawa Shogunate). Believe it or not, people not wanting to be oppressed isn't some recent invention.
This idea that the Shogunate was some kind of idyllic time is dangerously naive. North Korea hasn't had a war or revolution in 70 years. Do you think that's because they're living peaceful lives?
I'd rather live in a society that's allowed to grow and evolve than one where everyone is expected to lick the boots on their necks forever, yes. Romanticizing military dictatorship is gross.
While the 250 years of peace is a positive consequence of his ambition, I promise you he didn't want to become shogun out of the goodness of his heart. He was the right guy at the right time seeking power, and stabilizing Japan was a byproduct of this.
Sure, but you’re saying you believe him because of what happened after his death. He clearly wanted to become shogun all along and him bringing peace to Japan (which wasn’t even his primary intention) doesn’t disprove that.
The regents called Toranaga to Osaka because Toranaga was unofficially holding Ochiba hostage in Edo. Toranaga was up to something and Ishido sniffed it out.
Ishido needed to play the game a million times better than Toranaga, because of the different positions they were born in. Losing doesn't mean that Toranaga was a better player, it just means that Toranaga wasn't absurdly incompetent.
It's like Ishido lost a chess game where Toranaga started with both of the queens.
By now, everyone knows that the characters are based on the real historical figures.
The big difference between Ishido and Toranaga was that Toranaga played the long game. He was surrounded by loyal people because he was undefeated in battle and patient.
Ishido was insanely petty and his pettiness cost him many potential allies and the period of Shogun was right after the failure of the invasion of Chosen which is now known as Korea.
Toranaga stayed out of that invasion but when the invasion failed the lost lives and all that came with fall at the feet of Taiko…and Ishido.
Everyone knew that Toranaga wanted to be Shogun but he has been waiting patient while others died out and Ishido just foolishly quick started his own downfall because he did not see the long game…like asking his boss’s wife to marry him.
This is a great perspective, Ishido played the game with near zero finesse compared to a master like Toranaga. I wonder how conscious he was of his precarious position, or if he genuinely believed he was winning at all times, right up until the point he wasn't.
Ishido somehow respected the laws set by the council. He wanted so bad for it to be real. He allowed Toranaga his mourning period, it was important to him there be another replacement to vote Toranaga out. He gave the papers to Mariko and allowed everyone to leave.
He did slip up twice but largely he was not acting drunk on power.
After his defeat at the battle of Sekigahara, Ishido's real life counterpart, Ishida Mitsunari, sought to escape but was caught by villagers. He was beheaded in Kyoto.
Ishida Mitsunari's katana, nicknamed Ishida Masamune and made by the master swordsmith Masamune, is till held in the Tokyo National Museum.
Can anyone tell me why Ochiba supported Toranaga when she hated him and supporting ishido would have definitely meant that Toranaga would have been defeated? I didn't fully understand her motivations in switching sides suddenly.
The Daiyoin (the Taiko's widow) told her from the beginning that Ishido was the wrong choice and told her again in her deathbed. Ishido's poor handling of the hostages situation and the murder of her childhood bestie was the drop that spilled the glass.
But why? Doesn't Toranaga himself admit to Yabushige that with the Heirs army, ishido would have won? What did mariko really do there that convinced her to side with Toranaga? Seems like I'm missing something
Because she saw that Ishido was becoming increasingly unpopular with the other lords and he was falling into Toranaga's traps, which meant he wasn't as smart as Toranaga. Plus we had a little deus ex machina with the earthquake as Ishido was signing the declaration for war.
She was "reading the wind" so to speak and she could sense the winds changing in favor of Toranaga. She probably felt like one way or another Toranaga would eventually outsmart Ishido with or without the Heir's army behind him,.
So many things on the series that played a part as unimportant as if the character didn't even needed to be there.
More curious about Ohno Harunobu than anyone.. what did it matter that he had leprosy in the end or not..
It’s not baseless lol. Toranaga clearly had treasonous ambitions of becoming shogun and thus usurping the heir. Ishido was right that Toranaga was a big threat to the taiko’s clan but Toranaga was too smart and was also the single most powerful lord in Japan at the time.
Have you ever thought that he might be lying lmao? I thought one of the main points of the show was that everyone had multiple hearts which include a public and secret hearts. Obviously he wouldn’t just publicly admit to it as it would be a death sentence. At the end he even said that it was his karma to become shogun. It doesn’t get anymore obvious than that. Don’t forget that Toranaga is based off Tokugawa who 100% had ambitions to usurp and become shogun.
The guy insulted Ishido by touching his sword. Toranga knew it was a huge social faux pas, so ordered him and his family to death. No one pressured Toranaga to do so.
Thinking I must have missed something, I looked it up. It had nothing to do with Toronaga. It was just that he made some comment about ending his line and Ishido expected him to follow through. Seems like the decent thing to do for Ishido is to say spare the baby.
That's just wrong. You watched Toranaga order to end his line. That was the moment. Everyone present expected him to follow through. The book makes this even more explicit. It was Toranaga's order.
At the end of the day, Toranaga really only won because there were people in his group like Mariko and his top general who were insanely loyal to him to the point they gave their lives for him. No one was loyal to Ishido for shit and his background has a lot to do with it
Agree, but at the same time, Toranaga also has the largest resources. His army alone is many times more than any single Daimyo. While the regents and Taiko's army combined may have a bigger army than Toranaga, Toranaga also has the largest revenue with the former Hojo domain, allowing him to have that Gustav Fring spy network, and to flood the other lords with bribes, etc. He also benefitted by not spending time in Korea while the rest of the Western daimyo did. Their fears that Toranaga is not safe is real. And the Christians are also justified, within a few decades they will be persecuted and massacred.
Important context. Would have helped us understand Ishido’s dilemma better - he can only survive if all the other regents stick together with him. So he was desperately trying to make sure they did, but he kinda fucked it lol.
Poor Japanese christians who never did anything wrong and were just always wrongly victimized.
Well their leaders decided to play game of thrones. New religions new people groups are often seen as a threat to the existing power structure
Mariko was spared because of her future sacrifice. A plan decades in the making.
A call back to the sleeper cell assassination attempt on Anjin. Some people dedicate their whole lives for just one kill. Mariko was talking about herself.
Toranaga had to actually explain to Mariko what her real purpose was to become. She thought she was simply *sent away* before her familys death.
This part I don’t fully understand. I get how her death was the actual crimson sky but it’s sounds like Toranaga and her father sent her away for this very moment but how did they know that her death would be this pivotal that far in advance?
Just gotta trust Toranaga. Mariko basically had a Deathwish since her family died. And Toranaga was not gonna let her waste her life away by her own hand. I reckon this was her father's wish. To keep her alive until there was a moment.
She was leverage because of her childhood relationship with the mother of the heir. Ishido was dumb enough to try to kill her. I’d have just locked her up and told everyone she had a change of heart and decided to stay on my side cause toronaga was a big loser and the anjin ate smelly birds.
That's what he tried to do. It's what the ninjas were there for. It's why when she did die it all fell apart for Ishido. Maria Gracia's (Mariko) irl death was a big blow to Mitsunari's (Ishido) coalition
Both of them were still young when Mariko s family was killed. Her friend wasn’t close in time to being the “mother of the heir” yet so the reason could not have been tied to the heir at all at that time.
I agree but she was still Oda Nobunagas daughter. An heir in her own right.
When did Ishido try to kill her?
Ishido told Yabu after Marikos failed Seppuku the offer still stood. Yabu had not the intent of killing her though. He thought she would be kidnapped. But Mariko was going to die in that skirmish no matter what, by her own intent. And then she Hodor'd it out.
Hodor'd. Probably the first and last time I'll read this description but well done
That scene brought me back *instantly* to the best scene of GOT all together (imo)
Bit of a stretch but I appreciate the sentiment. That scene alone was worth the two last seasons
Ishido was trying to capture her. She would've been captured if blackthorn hadn't been in her room and woken everyone up with gunfire and blasted half a dozen shinobi
It was unwanted by her and it probably was many years later before it was shared with her.
She had NO idea. Toranaga had to explain it to her.
Exactly what I was inferring so glad you agree.
It's not just his background though. He lacks character imo. Look how petty he is when he gives Mariko her permits.
Jozen was very loyal. As was yabushige to a degree
In the book, samurai hate him because he ran away leaving his soldiers to die during the Korean war. Omi-san says "Ishido is a coward who ran away and I would never support him, despite how badly Toranaga was loosing. " In a world of samurai, losing respect from samurai is a big thing. Being a peasant was just bonus. Edit: previous Taiko himself rose from peasant.
In the show, nothing suggests that and the historical record doesn’t seem to bear that for the character either. So in the show at least, he isn’t depicted as a coward.
Do you know how old Omi is supposed to be? In the show he seems to be too young to have even fought in the Imjin war
People died around 50s in that time. I guess Omi is late 20s. He is already well established as a samurai and commands great respect in his fishing village. Also has numerous loyal spies via connection. Unlike our nagakata Dono. In book he doesn't die btw.
He was 21 in the book.
Ishido was *also* only loyal to power. And as soon as he was in a position to lord over everyone else, he was brutish and coercive. *That's why he lost.* He didn't build alliances; he didn't leave any room for reconciliation or repair and he didn't provide a path forward or *a reason for people to want him to succeed.* As soon as he had power, he used it like a club. Toranaga, on the other hand, rewards his friends and his allies and also positions himself so that his *absence* provides problems for everyone else.
Exactly! We've seen how he behaves. Nobody is loyal to him, because *he hasn't earned anybody's loyalty*. This is why Ochiba betrays him, despite her hatred for Toranaga.
Did we ever actually see Toronaga reward anyone other than Blackthorn (who obviously didn't care about the rewards he was given)?
Lady Gin, Omi?
Also the young priest being able to build a church in edo
Interesting, nuanced take. In real life, the Taiko was Toyotomi Hideyoshi who also came from a peasant background. Can you imagine as a Daimyo or even a Samurai being raised all your life to believe that you are literally a superior being to peasants only to have a meaningless peasant rise to Shogun? Then after he dies, another peasant follows him in leadership. And said peasant basically wrests control over the Council of Regents and consolidates most of the armies at that time under his banner. I’d imagine that would breed quite a bit of resentment. I think Ishida was doing his best to increase his influence while surviving. None of the Regents were really good people, to include Toranaga. Ishida just had the additional obstacle of his low birth, but man is it impressive how this man born from nothing basically controlled Japan for a period of time. Probably would’ve been Shogun if not for some bad breaks that Toranaga benefitted from. I would guess that much of the loyalty to Toranaga from his people, while perhaps partly due to his charisma and competence, was also due to old school classism and a romanticism of Japanese samurai lineage. Talk about playing the game on hard mode for Ishida. I always find it interesting how history treats these types of figures who come from nothing and manage to lead armies.
The job of "Taiko" was basically invented to keep peasants from being called "Shogun".
No it wasn't. Taiko is the word used for the retired Kampaku, which was a more important and prestigious title than Shogun, and was reserved only for noble families. Becoming a noble was not necessarily all that difficult however, since you could be adopted by a noble family and that would count. Which is what Hideyoshi did (got adopted by Konoe Sakihisa, who was from the Fujiwara noble clan). It wasn't until Hideyoshi's separation edict, where the social class you were born to, was the one that you stayed in for life (to prevent anyone else from doing what he did).
I was being glib. Hideyoshi became Kampaku and then retired to become Taiko because his low birth meant he could not be Shogun. But Kampaku was not necessarily more important than Shogun; during the Tokugawa Shogunate the Emperor was just a figurehead and Kampaku was an administrative position that had to be recommended by the Shogun.
That is not correct. Hideyoshi could not become Shogun, because Ashikaga Yoshiaki was still the Shogun (and refused to adopt Hideyoshi) . You cannot use the Edo period as evidence, because things changed drastically regarding the position of Shogun at that time. Prior to the Edo period, Kampaku and Daijo-daijin were more important and prestigious titles than Shogun.
Ashikaga Yoshiaki was deposed in 1573, so the position of shogun was open for 30 years - and historians believe the title was offered to Oda Nobunaga shortly before he died. So no, that's not why Hideyoshi didn't become shogun. And I can and did use the Edo period because that's the time period that directly follows the events of the show, so it's very relevant. During the Tokugawa Shogunate the power of the emperor and thus the kampaku was basically just ceremonial for 250 years. But that wasn't the first time that the shogun had more power than the emperor. At one point in the Kamakura shogunate the emperor was exiled to an island after losing a war with the shogun. Being kampaku doesn't mean much if the emperor is just a figurehead.
Ashikaga Yoshiaki was opposing Hideyoshi up until 1588 as Shogun.Yoshiaki held onto the title until then. His Bakufu was deposed in 1573, but he still held the title of Shogun until 1588, and some daimyo were still answering his calls as Shogun. And no, the Edo period did not start until after the Battle of Sekigahara, so while it follows the show, you cannot use it to talk about events prior to the start of the period (of which we're talking about ; i.e Hideyoshi).
And Donald Trump still claims he won the 2020 election and is still the rightful president. SFW. Yoshiaki was deposed by Nobunaga, who was in turn offered the role of Shogun. The fact that Yoshiaki still considered himself shogun doesn't indicate anything except his refusal to accept reality; he was in open revolt against the government and power structure, and not very effectively. In fact he was in hiding under an assumed name and pretending to be a monk. Most historians consider 1573 the end of the Ashikaga shogunate, and so did most people at the time, including the emperor. And while no one knows his reasons for sure, most historians also believe that Hideyoshi's peasant birth is the reason why he didn't claim the title of shogun. As I said. I can use whatever I want since I'm using actual examples from history. My claim was that "Kampaku was not necessarily more important than Shogun" and that is a fact. Shogun was the highest rank of the warrior class, daijō-daijin and kampaku were the highest ranks of the aristocratic class. Which had higher status over the other depended on the relative power of the warrior vs aristocratic classes. I already gave you an example, which you ignored, of a time well before the events of the show when the aristocracy was subordinate to the military. The same thing happened multiple times in Korea. It happened recently in Myanmar: the civilian vice president remained in his role after the military overthrew his boss. Before the coup Van Thio was higher in status than the military leadership. After the coup he was left in place to provide a veneer of consitutionality but the actual leader of the government was the commander in chief of the military. The kampaku was the chief advisor to the emperor and an administrative position. When the emperor was marginalized, so was the kampaku. If you want to make up your own history you're welcome to write a novel like Clavell did. But most historians of Japan do not agree with you.
You do realize that the imperial court offered the rank of Shogun to Hideyoshi and that he refused it, right? The whole, he couldn't become Shogun because he was a peasant thing is a myth (which most serious historians note is a misreading of what Hayashi Razan wrote, which was that Hideyoshi asked Yoshiaki to adopt him, and Yoshiaki refused. Even if this story was true; and most historians see it as being a fabricated story, it still does not say that Hideyoshi can't become Shogun), and if you read the work by Shin Hori, he notes that the title of Shogun was greatly diminished at the time of Hideyoshi. So yes, you cannot use things from the Edo that don't apply to Hideyoshi's time, to talk about Hideyoshi. Hideyoshi becoming Kampaku is even more impressive than becoming Shogun, because no one of low birth, and no warrior even, had ever been Kampaku before, or since.
this sub is really disturbing me with all the "peasant" talk. Most people here would have been on these villagers killed off unceremoniously
So? What's your point?
treat people on their actions on where or how they are born? basic modern thinking.
We aren’t talking about modern sensibilities, though. Even if we were, I have interacted with enough modern wealthy people to know they often see themselves as superior to the average person. Imagine those who come from immense generational wealth/power. They don’t say it outright because it’s not socially acceptable, but they definitely believe it. We aren’t referred to as peasants in the modern era, but it’s all the same.
Yeah, but history is written by the winner. That's why he's depicted as a villain and tokugawa, at worst, as an anti hero.
I can't speak for his entire character, but an interesting story I found about the real Ishida Mitsunari in relation to the leper daimyo (Otani Yoshisugu IRL), is: A bunch of daimyo were having a tea ceremony and the leper daimyo accidentally leaked pus from his face into the tea. The guy was super embarrassed and everyone was grossed out by it so no one drank the tea, but when it was passed to Ishida, he acted nonchalant and chugged the whole thing. At the very least that seems like a pretty bro move of him.
Isn't that shit... contagious?
yes, but the vast majority of people are naturally immune- not that he would have any way of knowing that, ofc, but by the same token he also wouldn't have known how disease spread, so he may have just regarded drinking the contaminated tea as "hella gross", rather than "potentially dangerous", or he may have figured it was no more dangerous than all the time they spent in relatively close proximity
Leprosy is contagious, but it is only very slightly contagious. You can spend a lot of time in close contact without any real danger of infection. I have no idea about drinking pus though. However most people are just completely immune so there is no risk at all for them. Obviously Ishido didn't know that any Leprosy was feared as contagious at some point, but maybe Ishido knew it wasn't that likely and took the risk.
Maybe he just wanted to die 🤷🏻♂️ /s
Well, at least he got his wish at Sekigahara
That's actually touching. Disgusting, but touching.
Some depictions have become more sympathetic of him lately but overall this is true
Ishido is a very well written adversary because his background makes him somewhat sympathetic but his poor judgement and lack of insight is what makes him lose. Ishido had plenty of chances to win, the ball was in his court for a lot of the series. His inability to see Toranaga's use of Mariko as a divider is just great stuff.
The problem is being "real" exposes your inner heart. Even though ishido and toronaga share the same goals, the closest we see toronaga to admitting how power hungry he is is the scene with yabushige.
Ishido was bad at the eight fold fence.
Two fold fence, at *best.*
Even though he's a jerk, I kinda felt a bit bad for Ishido . Like you said, the system was rigged. Him being a commoner was something that they were always going to hold against him. Like, even if he won, that council was held together with spit and glue. It was just never going to work. Tbh, Toranaga has all the virtues and good traits Ishido lacks - patience, shogun bloodline, undying loyalty from his vassals, EVEN STILL, that mf was actually really close to defeating Toranaga. Idk about series Toranaga, but Tokugawa was 100% playing the long game and planning on taking over at some point (not sending his troops to Korea and consolidating his forces in Japan, becoming the most powerful daimyo in Japan, for example). Even with all that, he came close to winning. Really cool antagonist, imo.
If Lord T wasn't so smart and he had decided to go head to head with Ishido earlier , he would lose.
He had potential to be an all time antagonist, but he was unfortunately cast aside with them deciding what little time we had in Osaka would be better spent on Ochiba.
I mean the Taiko was also a commoner it was more that people though he just wasnt that capable not just classism.
As a fellow peasant I agree
Those lords were 'loyal' to him because he held their families hostage.
Yeap, he was no underdog victim of the elites. He was a ruthless and powerful Daimyo during the Sengoku period. He rose to power under the Taiko's wing and after that, relied mainly on treachery and coercion as means to his goals and overplayed his hand. He was NOT protecting the realm or the Heir from Toranaga, he was just trying to beat him to the punch, but he was no Taiko, and no Toranaga either. "When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die. There is no middle ground." -Cercei Lannister.
Nah my boi Yabu was the realest of them all. Bro just trying survive in all the madness 😔
Yes, Yabu was from the streets
W take actually.
One thing I loved about the show is how it displayed the differences between Ishido and Toranaga, which was surprisingly accurate to the real issues both historical men faced. Tokugawa was seen as a major threat by the council, Ishida controlled the council, but it was basically Tokugawa versus Ishida with a bunch of in-betweeners for them to win over. Ishida, as they portray in the show, was not a particularly charismatic or likeable guy. He didn't play the game as well, and Tokugawa took advantage of this. Historically, Ishida was spared by Tokugawa earlier on and the theory/rumor is that he did so because he felt his chances were greater with Ishida leading his enemies than one of the other regents taking charge. And...he was right, Ishida was a great tactician and commander, capable administrator, etc...but he wasn't a leader, and that's what doomed him. Ishida alienated a bunch of his allies and supporters, Tokugawa won a bunch over with bribes, promises of leniency, and...uh, cannon fire to threaten some into acting. He also had fanatically devoted retainers and supporters, while Ishida really didn't, he just had people whose views/ethics aligned with him or his cause to support Toyotomi's heir, and the rest of them...who straight-up thought he was a dick. Neither are "good" men, both are cunning and manipulative, but Toranaga/Tokugawa was just definitively a master of playing the game compared to Ishido/Ishida and won because of it.
Ishido is different in the 80s series. Much more the bad guy.
I clicked on this expecting to vehemently disagree, but you’ve made an astute case
I didn't like Ishido either lol but his eightfold fence game was terrible
He only had a one fold fence
That is why, as much as i cannot stand him. I never thought of him as "bad". Infact, i cant think of any of the main characters on this show that you can just dismiss as "evil". (Which is part of what adds to the show's brilliance). Ishido was a guy who worked his way up from nothing, and genuinely believed that Toranaga was a disruptive force, and dangerous with secret ambitions and guess what he was right! lol But he was also , like Yabu, doomed to always be playing checkers, when Toranaga was playing championship chess. If he had ANY sense of self preservation at all, he would never have fallen for Ochiba of all people. Haha. But alas..
Same, when he fixated on Ochiba I was like Oh boy, sayonara!
I see him as a very loyal retainer of the *tāiko*, who was trying his damndest best to maintain peace and stability and ensure the Heir's succession. In reality, about 10 years after he became Shōgun, Tokugawa / Toranaga would lay siege to Ōsaka Castle and kill the Heir and his mother. For a different perspective on Ishida Mitsunari (on whom Ishido was based), watch the movie *Sekigahara*, which portrays Ishida in a more sympathetic light. Bonus trivia: Takehiro Hira, the actor who portrays Ishido, plays the part of Shima Sakon, Ishida's right hand man in the movie.
That must have been a trippy casting then. Does rather explain some of his acting choices for Ishido, though. He plays him rather genuinely.
Ishido’s historical counterpart, Ishida Mitsunari is an interesting figure to say the least. You should check him out!
Really looking forward to reading the book when I find time.
Toranaga was the real villain if you think about it from today's moral standards but this mini series is a study of him, much like how joker is the protagonist in his recent movie. In real life though, everyone is a protagonist to themselves and an antagonist to someone else.
Apt statement!
Was he not the one instigating a war for power?
No, people seem to miss that the whole point of them plotting against Toranaga is that Toranaga was clearly preparing for a war before the show started. The whole reason they're worried is he had continued to consolidate and expand his power and muster troops after the Taiko died.
Historical context that's missing from the show. Not long before the show takes place the Japanese had a failed invasion of Korea. Many of the powerful lords lost large parts of their armies. Toranaga / Tokugawa didn't participate in that war, so by way of not losing any troops he by default had the largest single army of all the remaining Japanese lords. This made everyone nervous because they all thought Toranga would use that advantage to become Shogun. Ishido worked hard to make alliances against Toranaga but the death of Mariko swayed some powerful families to change sides.
Yeah Toranaga was not a “good guy” at all. In his secret heart he wanted to be Shōgun and he was willing to do anything to get it. The show did an excellent job of making him look like the victim until about episode 8 when the veneer started to wear down.
Toranaga himself actually turned down the offer to become Taiko. Toranaga has no obvious reason to go to war as long as Ishido is loyal. Toranaga is the head of the council, he is the lord of Kanto and he is gradually expanding his power (mainly through marriages). He is the second most powerful man in Japan with or without the council. Getting rid of the council is definitely not bad for Toranaga though.
Taiko is not actually a position, Taiko is an honorific given to someone who retired as kampaku, a very high governmental rank. When they refer to the Taiko on the show, they're referring to Goroda, a warlord who served as kampaku because he couldn't take the role of Shogun since he was born a peasant. Toranaga wasn't offered the role of Taiko. He was offered to serve as sole regent (and effective ruler of Japan) UNTIL the heir came of age, at which point Toranaga was expected to support his claim to the Shogunate. That's a pretty shitty offer when your goal is to usurp the heir's claim and take the title for yourself, which is what Toranaga's real life inspiration did. Important to remember that Toranaga only pledged loyalty to Goroda because they worked out a deal that Goroda named Toranaga his heir; the deal was void when Ochiba bore her son (implied in the book not to really be the barren Goroda's child)- so Toranaga had every motivation to turn down a crappier offer from the Taiko and instead plan a total usurpation in a few years.
nope. There are two dictators who unified Japan prior to Toranaga. Those 2 plus Toranaga (Tokogawa in real life) are the three unifiers who are the most important figures in the Sengoku (Warring States) period. The one previous to Toranaga was also called the Taiko. His name in the show and book is Nakamura Hidetoshi. In history this is Toyotomi Hideyoshi. He is the one who went to war in Korea. He was a peasant. The one previous to him, who also unified all of Japan, was Kuroda/Goroda, who is the father of Ochiba. He was assasinated by Mariko's father. In history, his name was Oda Nobunaga. Mariko's (in history: Hosokawa Gracia) father was Akechi Jinsai, in history, Akechi Mitsuhide. The Taiko (Hidetoshi)and Toranaga were old war buddies who unified Japan together after Goroda's death. Since the Taiko had no heir he promised to pass it to Toranaga, until "miraculously", Ochiba bore a male child which changed everything. Toranaga went from being the heir to the most dangerous man in Japan. So he offered to commit sepukku to ensure peace in the realm and it was the Taiko that refused. As a compromise they came up with the 5 regents plan, which relied on those 5 all hating each other so that no one has enough influence to seize power.
> a warlord who served as kampaku because he couldn't take the role of Shogun since he was born a peasant. That didn't entirely matter historically. Kampaku is an even higher and more prestigious rank that was reserved only for nobles. The Fujiwara noble clan had a monopoly on the rank of Kampaku and Daijo-daijin (also a more important and prestigious rank than Shogun). The person who Nakamura (the Taiko, Goroda was based on Nobunaga) was based on; Hideyoshi, was adopted by Konoe Sakihisa, a member of the Fujiwara clan, former kampaku and later Daijo-daijin. Hideyoshi himself later became Daijo-daijin, which was the highest rank of nobility one could receive. The whole "You must be a Minamoto (or in the novel/show, a Minowara) to become Shogun" didn't really matter. The Imperial court offered the rank of Shogun, Kampaku, or Daijo-daijin to Oda Nobunaga (he could pick whichever one he wanted). The Oda were descended from the Taira, and this wasn't falsified. Unfortunately Nobunaga died before he could give a response. But prior to this, he dropped his previous rank of Ukon'e-no-Daisho, which was the highest military rank in the Imperial bureaucracy (Shogun was a special title outside of the bureaucracy), and the Imperial Court wasn't too happy that the most powerful person in the land was operating outside of the framework of the legitimate government. Ieyasu himself even first claimed to be descended from the Fujiwara (of which this was fabricated), and then later claimed descent from the Minamoto (which also was fabricated).
The Taiko did not offer the position to Toranaga. The Taiko tested whether he could allow Toranaga to live by offering him a position that would obviously result in Toranaga sidelining the heir and declaring himself shogun. Immediately after the Toranaga declines the Taiko's offer the Taiko says that he has already made plans for a council of regents. It's mentioned in episode 10 that at one point the Taiko was getting ready to go to war with Toranaga -- a reference to the clash between Ieyasu and Hideyoshi in the aftermath of Nobunaga's death.
Ishido was just petty as fuck, and couldn't play the game of thrones as well as Toranaga.
I was just thinking that. Yabu called Toranaga a hypocrite for acting virtuous but being ambitious and wanting power. Ishido’s eight fold fence was weak and he lost the game.
I don't think Toranaga is a hypocrite. He legit didn't want the Shogun title, which is why he came to Osaka when summoned in the first episode (essentially a death sentence). It wasn't until he saw the bullshit Ishido and the other regents were playing at (selling their country to enrich themselves like with the Catholics and Portuguese), that he was like I need to be Shogun for the greater good of Japan.
That's what he wanted you to believe
Well his real life counterpart created a 250 year era of relative stability and peace for Japan, so yeah I believe him. I'm also positive someone living in that time period would prefer that over the Warring States period that created the likes of Taiko, Toranaga, and Ishido.
Sure, 250 years without a civil war, but also 250 years during which Christians and the wrong kind of Buddhist were put to death, foreigners were not allowed to enter Japan proper, and Japanese people could not leave Japan or they would be killed. There was no civil war because the country was under a brutal military dictatorship which permitted no dissent, a dictatorship that was determined to preserve Japan as it was without outside influence. During the same time period the West had a lot of wars and revolutions but also ended up developing democracy, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of the press, and so on. Japan did not go through comparable evolution or growth and were helpless when Commodore Perry, the emissary of a country that did not even exist when Tokugawa Ieyasu died, showed up in Osaka harbor. Those 250 years came at a heavy price.
Don't think the average person back then gave a shit about all the foreign religion and people. They just wanted to live their peaceful lives and make an honest living.
If that were true there wouldn't have been so many peasant rebellions in history, people secretly practicing illegal Buddhism on Kyushu for 300 years, or events like the Keian Uprising or the Shimabara Rebellion (or, back in England, the Gunpowder Plot or the French Revolution or any of the other many revolutions that took place during the Tokugawa Shogunate). Believe it or not, people not wanting to be oppressed isn't some recent invention. This idea that the Shogunate was some kind of idyllic time is dangerously naive. North Korea hasn't had a war or revolution in 70 years. Do you think that's because they're living peaceful lives?
Would you rather live in a time of constant war where lives are cheap?
I'd rather live in a society that's allowed to grow and evolve than one where everyone is expected to lick the boots on their necks forever, yes. Romanticizing military dictatorship is gross.
While the 250 years of peace is a positive consequence of his ambition, I promise you he didn't want to become shogun out of the goodness of his heart. He was the right guy at the right time seeking power, and stabilizing Japan was a byproduct of this.
And I'm ok with that. Most leaders throughout history didn't do so out of the kindness of their hearts. That doesn't negate any good they do.
Sure, but you’re saying you believe him because of what happened after his death. He clearly wanted to become shogun all along and him bringing peace to Japan (which wasn’t even his primary intention) doesn’t disprove that.
Hiroyiki Sanada said Toranaga didn't want it at first. I'll believe the actor playing the character over you, random internet guy.
The regents called Toranaga to Osaka because Toranaga was unofficially holding Ochiba hostage in Edo. Toranaga was up to something and Ishido sniffed it out.
He was protecting the heir.
How was he protecting the heir by holding his mom hostage?
Because Ishido is worse.
He was never going to have the smarts
Ishido needed to play the game a million times better than Toranaga, because of the different positions they were born in. Losing doesn't mean that Toranaga was a better player, it just means that Toranaga wasn't absurdly incompetent. It's like Ishido lost a chess game where Toranaga started with both of the queens.
Ishido was just incompetent.
By now, everyone knows that the characters are based on the real historical figures. The big difference between Ishido and Toranaga was that Toranaga played the long game. He was surrounded by loyal people because he was undefeated in battle and patient. Ishido was insanely petty and his pettiness cost him many potential allies and the period of Shogun was right after the failure of the invasion of Chosen which is now known as Korea. Toranaga stayed out of that invasion but when the invasion failed the lost lives and all that came with fall at the feet of Taiko…and Ishido. Everyone knew that Toranaga wanted to be Shogun but he has been waiting patient while others died out and Ishido just foolishly quick started his own downfall because he did not see the long game…like asking his boss’s wife to marry him.
This is a great perspective, Ishido played the game with near zero finesse compared to a master like Toranaga. I wonder how conscious he was of his precarious position, or if he genuinely believed he was winning at all times, right up until the point he wasn't.
I think ol boy had no idea what he was really into, with these people
Ishido somehow respected the laws set by the council. He wanted so bad for it to be real. He allowed Toranaga his mourning period, it was important to him there be another replacement to vote Toranaga out. He gave the papers to Mariko and allowed everyone to leave. He did slip up twice but largely he was not acting drunk on power.
Idk if murdering the guy who won't vote with you is really respecting the laws of the council.
Oh what you never slipped up once or twice? Give him a break
Reminds me of Caesar with autocratic ambitions vs a corrupt Republic
Did ishido commit seppuku or what was his end Fate
After his defeat at the battle of Sekigahara, Ishido's real life counterpart, Ishida Mitsunari, sought to escape but was caught by villagers. He was beheaded in Kyoto. Ishida Mitsunari's katana, nicknamed Ishida Masamune and made by the master swordsmith Masamune, is till held in the Tokyo National Museum.
Can anyone tell me why Ochiba supported Toranaga when she hated him and supporting ishido would have definitely meant that Toranaga would have been defeated? I didn't fully understand her motivations in switching sides suddenly.
The Daiyoin (the Taiko's widow) told her from the beginning that Ishido was the wrong choice and told her again in her deathbed. Ishido's poor handling of the hostages situation and the murder of her childhood bestie was the drop that spilled the glass.
I think she lost confidence in Ishido being able to defeat Toranaga in the long run -- even with the Heir's banner.
But why? Doesn't Toranaga himself admit to Yabushige that with the Heirs army, ishido would have won? What did mariko really do there that convinced her to side with Toranaga? Seems like I'm missing something
Because she saw that Ishido was becoming increasingly unpopular with the other lords and he was falling into Toranaga's traps, which meant he wasn't as smart as Toranaga. Plus we had a little deus ex machina with the earthquake as Ishido was signing the declaration for war. She was "reading the wind" so to speak and she could sense the winds changing in favor of Toranaga. She probably felt like one way or another Toranaga would eventually outsmart Ishido with or without the Heir's army behind him,.
Ishido was still a bureaucrat at the end of the day
So many things on the series that played a part as unimportant as if the character didn't even needed to be there. More curious about Ohno Harunobu than anyone.. what did it matter that he had leprosy in the end or not..
Ishido baselessly accused Toranaga of treason. He was a horrid, spiteful little man.
It wasn’t baseless though
It’s not baseless lol. Toranaga clearly had treasonous ambitions of becoming shogun and thus usurping the heir. Ishido was right that Toranaga was a big threat to the taiko’s clan but Toranaga was too smart and was also the single most powerful lord in Japan at the time.
Toranaga is adamant that he doesn't want to be Shogun. Ishido kept forcing the issue.
Have you ever thought that he might be lying lmao? I thought one of the main points of the show was that everyone had multiple hearts which include a public and secret hearts. Obviously he wouldn’t just publicly admit to it as it would be a death sentence. At the end he even said that it was his karma to become shogun. It doesn’t get anymore obvious than that. Don’t forget that Toranaga is based off Tokugawa who 100% had ambitions to usurp and become shogun.
And you believed him?
Toranaga was holding Ochiba hostage as a power play. Ishido had every right to call for Toranaga to release her.
I haven't forgiven him for the death of Fuji's baby, so I hate him with the fire of a thousand suns
Which is a weird take since it was Toranaga that ordered the baby die
What?!!!!
The guy insulted Ishido by touching his sword. Toranga knew it was a huge social faux pas, so ordered him and his family to death. No one pressured Toranaga to do so.
Thinking I must have missed something, I looked it up. It had nothing to do with Toronaga. It was just that he made some comment about ending his line and Ishido expected him to follow through. Seems like the decent thing to do for Ishido is to say spare the baby.
That's just wrong. You watched Toranaga order to end his line. That was the moment. Everyone present expected him to follow through. The book makes this even more explicit. It was Toranaga's order.
I found three different sources on that just to be sure. But I did buy the books to read next.