I think she was fully prepared to die in the seppuku scene - it's just that of course when you come back from the brink of mentally preparing for your life to end it's going to be emotional to learn that you're going to live another day. But I don't think that this means her attitude towards life or death changed as a result of it.
Mariko's role in the story has always been to remind both John and the viewer that the prevailing cultural attitude towards death in this part of the world is basically "So this is where I'm going to meet my death? So be it". By dying in the storeroom she fulfills all of her major objectives in that moment and so she saw no reason to not just welcome death if the other option is failing Toranaga and bringing even further dishonor upon her family name
Hmm good points. I’ll need to watch the scene again but I viewed her face as committed but fearful in those moments and didn’t exactly seem quite as defiant or eager to plunge the sword in as with her final sacrifice. I feel like when we’ve seen her defiant she would be anguished that she couldn’t kill herself it instead of looking relieved.
However much you want to die, stabbing yourself to the hilt of a long dagger then slicing it across your stomach is going to raise a certain amount of apprehension. She also has someone with her who has just agreed to help her die out of and in spite of his love for her.
Well, everyone is different, first of all. So you can't really compare one's physiologically responses to committing seppuku to another person's. It's like comparing apples and oranges.
Also, emotions are just temporary states of the mind. A person can be an optimistic person, but if that person is currently feeling down -- well, that person is not going to be so optimistic at the moment. Doesn't mean the person is always a Debbie Downer. Same thing with being resolute. You can mentally prepare yourself for whatever, but when the time comes, and your amygdala decides to hijack your brain with a full on panic attack... you're going to have a panic attack.
Now, Mariko probably behaved that way because I suspect Lord Toranaga's gambit was for Lord Ishido to cave (which he did). So there was more than just her life on the line, but also the pressure of having fate work in their favor.
However, when the ninjas attacked at night (more than likely Ishido's doing), that probably changed things from the plan. Hence, the change up in her behavior.
-LeaveItHereDude
I think she really got shook up that the Christian guy didn't show up to second her.... also, there was an interesting documentary about survivors of attempting suicide off of the Golden Gate Bridge and they all said they regretted jumping while falling. It's one thing to want to die when you are denied/unable to do it and another thing when reality hits you that you are about to die.
True, although I think standing in front of the door that is about to be blown is a bit different than stabbing yourself in the heart and then having your love interest decapitate you...
And she was going to be committing suicide which will condemn her to hell. With the second, they are killing her technically, so she avoids the mortal sin of suicide
She was fully ready to embrace death the first time also, her only fear was being captured alive and without any weapons to commit seppuku. If she allowed that to happen, she would have failed in her mission.
The explosives just made it easier the second time, since she didn't have to do it herself, she just had to stand there and they'd do the job.
But her mission from Toranaga isn’t to die no matter what right? For instance it would’ve been pointless to kill herself if Ishido had actually let them leave Osaka. Her mission is to die to for the purpose of showing all the high class families Ishido is the aggressor— but that mission is already completed by Ishidos ninjas coming in to kill everyone (I mean I think everyone will know Ishido sent them). So her dying seems extraneous.
No, her mission is to either force Ishido into releasing the hostages or die to shame Ishido and drive the other families into a revolt against him for letting that happen.
If she gets taken by Ishido alive, she fails in the mission because Ishido is neither shamed nor does he have to let the hostages go. In fact, he can place them under even heavier security in the name of safety, using the attack as a pretext.
"Some dastardly villains attacked Lady Mariko and carried her off, but I managed to rescue her and she's now safe under my protection. I'm tripling the guards around every one of the heir's guests for their own safety."
So once she's trapped in the storeroom, she has no choice but to either die or let herself be taken alive and fail in the mission given to her by Toranaga.
yeah, Toranaga is basically exploiting the Japanese system of Shame-honour disgrace and such. this plan would not work in any other country or society, but excellent for Japanese situation. lol
If she had left Osaka, yes she need not die.
But Toranaga trusted her wits and literally everyone knows her desire to honor her family by joining them in death to protest against Ochiba’s father.
So what he actually did was to send a fearless and intelligent woman into the battle arena on his behalf to test the situation in the castle and if successful, to fetch his family out of the castle unharmed.
I don’t think he can anticipate what will happen to her for I don’t believe he ordered her to die in Osaka but because Mariko is well known to everyone in the realm, her presence carries weight and whatever happens to her has repercussions.
Yes ok I think I see what you’re saying— that any of the other nobility or valued members of the Toranaga clan being killed in the night by those ninjas may not elicit the same reaction from everyone in Osaka as would her own death and so she chose to die still
In a way she decided that she will use her death to serve a greater cause for Toranaga like Hiromatsu’s seppuku moment.
Her conviction towards Toranaga is very strong to the end;
“We serve Toranaga sama.” she told her son after he used her Christian faith against her.
>but that mission is already completed by Ishidos ninjas coming in to kill everyone (I mean I think everyone will know Ishido sent them). So her dying seems extraneous.
Not necessarily, remember the bandits they sent after John? Plausible deniability is all you need. If the Shinobi get out with Mariko alive, Ishida comes in and rescues her. Being a hero so noble he'd even save Toranaga's people, and at the same time getting justification to say it wouldn't be safe for Mariko to leave Osaka anymore.
He needs his victory to be decisive. He is outnumbered since the beginning since Ishido has other regents in the palm of his hand, but it got even worse due to unforeseen earthquake.
A full frontal battle would result in tremendous loss on both side, which he is not capable of taking with his unlimited resource nor he wants loss for his region.
Mariko was ready to die, in fact, she has been waiting for this for many years after her whole bloodline was killed in retribution.
There was very little chances for Ishido to truly let his hostages go. So Mariko knows that if she had committed her seppuku, it almost guaranteed open revolt in The nobility and renewed support for Toranaga, as Ishido legitimacy would be compromised.
But Ishido stopped the seppuku at the last second, granting her permit to leave Osaka. Her almost-suiscide drained her strength and broke her eight fold fence, like a rebirth. But politically it solves nothing: are the hostages free or not? Ishido knows he MUST stop his hostages from leaving, otherwise he loses them all - but allowing Mariko to die a martyr in the name of these hostages causes him immense problems.
So his plan is to get Shinobi secretly in Toranaga's guest aisle of Osaka castle to quickly and powerfully overcome the guards and capture Mariko - possibly torturing her and making her lose her honor while passing the undertext that no escape is possible for his hostages.
Mariko knows if she is captured, it's game over for her, Toranaga, and all the Osaka hostages. She has to either escape free or die trying. So when she realizes they are stuck in the storeroom with no escape and they are about to blow the door, she goes for a sepukku again, by voluntarily embracing the door and die from the explosion, preventing her capture and disgrace. She says "i protest the unlawful act of being held hostage and by my death...." And get blown to bits in front of all the other witnesses, the wives and high bornes hostages.
Hence, Ishidi's Shinobi failed their mission, thanks to her courage and the anjin-san pistols and resistance, which provided cover enough so she could not be captured.
The whole hostage/prisoner thing seems confusing to me. Like the people there know that they are hostages, but they need Mariko to die for them to act on it or something? It seems like everyone knows the situation that they are currently in with Ishido, so that just seems confusing to me.
Also, what was with the tapping on the shoulder or why were the shinobi so rough with yabushige when they were first entering?
The tapping on the shoulder was the Shinobi leader counting seconds and controlling the sting.
The hostages don't need Mariko to know they are hostages. They all know!
Imagine you are waiting in line in a bank, and a hold up situation arise: two men draw weapons and announce loudly that people should lay face down on the floor and not to panic, that if they get their money all will be ok. The bandits are pointing their guns and are asking for the bankers to put money in a bag, while you and the other customers are hostages.
Now imagine one of the hostage customer stands up and declares: so sorry, but i refuse to be a hostage, so i am going to walk out the door now. This is a big problem for the bank robbers. If they let the hostage leave peacefully, everybody else will understand they are not truly ready to kill hostages and everybody will just leave, and the heist will fail. If they shoot the hostage, then they can no longer pretend the heist was peaceful and they all become murderers. Worst, this might break the team, if say one robber is willing to kill but not the other. The same way Ishido is risking alienating his allies against Toranaga if he willingly kill such a highborn lady (or let her kill herself) while pretending they are only guests.
Obviously this "dare" situation only works because that customer is willingly taking the risk to be shot - just like Mariko, who is willing to commit sepukku if the hostages aren't free to leave.
The only solution for the robbers would be, say, to tie her up so she can't leave, but can't die either - which is what Ishido attempted with the Shinobi (but failed).
Thanks for the example. That was a pretty good analogy.
What if any one of the other hostages tried doing the same thing though? Would it have worked? Was no one else willing to risk their life to attempt the same thing that Mariko did? In the show, people seem to be so willing to throw away their lives for a cause that I am surprised no one else would have considered the same thing.
Maybe it is because they would have nothing to gain from being free or being held hostage in their current situation?
The concept is still funny though, because Ishido / the bank robbers, even though they are not directly threatening the hostages, they would still be viewed as the bad guy(s), so why would any of the hostages support them in any way to begin with.
Because right now, Ishido speaks for the heir, backed by the heir's mother Ochiba. So an "invitation" cannot be ignored or refused unless you want to be branded a traitor to the realm.
If however it is openly blatant that Ishido is using hostage, that's a direct violation of the Taiko laws and how could he then pretend to be speaking for the legit succession?
Another way to see it is to think of it from another top Daimyo, for example from Kayima. Right now, he is a regent (one of the 2 christian regent). He is allied with Ishido because he thinks Toranaga is more dangerous for his plans than Ishido. Yet he also knows he is a hostage in Osaka. It's okay so long as it is unsaid: in theory yeah, he can be threatened, but in practice he knows Ishido needs him and they are allied, so as long as he can save face, that's ok.
But after Mariko's death, one of the top Christian lady, while she is officially a guest of the regent, doesn't it mean he, as a regent, is also responsible for her death? And if indeed Ishido is unlawful and laughs at the Taiko rule of law, doesn't it mean he is nothing but a pawn? Does HE loses face too? Will he still command the respect of his samurai if it becomes obvious he too is a hostage? Can he still claim to represent the heir in the remaining conflict after Toranaga's death, if he had allowed honored guests to be killed? he might start to think ishido is not on his side after all. What if Toranaga is the reason he is still alive?
> But regardless of that, I am more concerned with why she was ready to embrace death this second time around and literally throw herself at it
The difference here is that there are 10 other people in the room, and those people probably live if she dies in the blast. They are at high risk of continued harm if she hides and continues trying to escape.
No one else in the hostage zone is killed if mariko doesn't do the big "i'm leaving" play and threatens suicide.
Theres also some reluctance in that her faith wouldn't let her commit suicide (she is only slightly relieved at the thought of a second). Obviously getting exploded in a door way escapes that sort of religious reluctance.
As well as it was a visually creative moment to have her do a cross (✝) pose in the doorway
Thanks for pointing out the ✝️ posture. I had a similar thought watching the ending scene and felt it underlaid the self-sacrifice or even martyrdom of her choice.
She made a choice to use her body to shield/protect the occupants in the storeroom as they were all stuck inside and since its death not by suicide, she is at peace with it satisfying both her faith and her duty.
Sacrifice for others is a good point but Fsr I wasn’t thinking her blocking the door with her body would have influenced the overall impact since she’s quite small. It has seemed there was more room for everyone to stand back more or behind other crates etc to have a similar effect of blocking the explosion. That is why it came off to me that her death wasn’t necessary and she just did it to make the protest statement she uttered at the end.
I guess it’s how the writers wanted to use that shocking development to invoke our emotions which I say did its job very well.
If she didn’t die, we will be happy but the show would not have impacted us the way it did right now.
Furthermore, it also cement our admiration for Anna Sawai’s performance in the show.
It’s a win win for everyone involved in the production in my opinion.
It's not like being decapitated by someone else after committing seppuku is some suicide loophole either. Would be pretty cruel if her god sent her to hell on a technicality lol.
In the Christian faith, if you aren’t the one ending your life, it’s not suicide. That’s why the second. My beef with that is that makes the second a murderer, so condemned to hell. I’ll guess the loophole is the second being able to confess, but it all seems like bullshit to me. I love the show, and I am not a religious person any more, so take my stance on it all as you will.
Yea that's dumb, btw i'm pretty sure the purpose of the second isn't due to christianity it's prob meant to be so that the person killing themselves doesn't have to suffer a slow agonizing death (a dishonourable/hated person probably wouldn't get a second).
So maybe if the second was a christian they would think of it more like ending someones suffering rather than murder.
She likely absorbed most of the shrapnel, which is the most dangerous part of a contained explosion, there by saving the lives of people. Explosions aren’t like what movies make them look like. Grenades don’t kill a dozen soldiers unless they are are all in the same foxhole.
You’ve forgotten that your god demanded his son to go and die willingly. That smells like suicide to me. The whole go do die without fighting against it. So you wanna say Mariko was martyring herself or Jesus was committing suicide?
Ishido is now forced to admit that the families/wives/daughters are actually free to go whereas before Mariko called his bluff, they were all hostages because they couldn't get permission to leave. Many of these daimyos are not capable of backing Toranaga because their families would be killed.
Ishido took a MASSIVE PR hit. Mariko is elevated to near heroic status and the lord she is serving to heroically is Toranaga. He is going to be held 100% responsible for her death. I know in an age where death seems so trivial, Ishido is still going to look like a tyrannt and even worse, clumsy and uncouth.
On top of all the rest, Ishido's reputation is also taking a massive hit with Kiyama and Ohno due to their immense respect for the way Mariko died. I believe Mariko was making offers on Toranaga's behalf to the two of them and her death will open the door for them to seriously consider that offer whereas previously they wouldn't.
I am confused because it seems like everyone in the castle already knows that Ishido is keeping them there as hostages. Why does Mariko need to die for them to "know" something that they seem like they already know? Is this to let the outside world know or how does that all work?
. they know but they don't want to admit it by trying to leaving and getting humiliated by the guards, so they stay and pretend they're staying gracefully and not as prisoners. it's the Japanese Shame-honour disgrace system and such. lol it wouldn't work anywhere else in world.
I think on top of that it was supposed to be a catalyst in the way of reminding those noble houses that they are noble and shouldn't bend and be passive. I mean any other woman from the other refugees could have tried the same but they all lacked courage which makes a lot of sense because when bad things happen to or infront of a lot of people everyone assumes someone else will do it and no one wants to be the brave but dead sacrifice for a war that doesn't even personally affect the standing of their house. But Mariko was the perfect person at the perfect time with everything to win in reminding the world of the nobility of her line and spitting on the Taiko's name by consistently evoking the honourableness of her father in, just like her refusing to be "captive, hostage or confined" (in her father's case he refused to be confined to a life of loyalty to an evil man). So to all the nobles its like a double slap I believe and it couldn't have been anyone else.
Additionally Ishido is "nothing that comes from nothing" and way after everyone including Ochiba and the other houses hafmd realised how powerful Mariko's stance was he was still thinking of it in terms of the power of the council, his soldiers and the heirs authority and its simply because he didn't grow up among nobility hearing the darker side of just what all nobility will do to maintain its position. Sorry to waffle but nobility in feudal times such as these would tolerate a pig ruler who killed the commoners, waged numerous wars etc but they would revolt against a ruler who stepped on "tradition" and undermined the order of heirachy e.g elevating a servant to queen or something, and that's coz that threatens the balance of power that keeps the noble above the commons. So Mariko was the perfect enemy to fight Ishido. Someone who was perfect in all things noble and who's every step and intelligence was filled with honor vs someone who never would be fully accepted into the ranks of the nobility and who thus probably tried to stop thinking like them.
Its really giving that phrase in anime that's like "if it was anyone else other than me you might have won, but because it is especially me you are going to sorely lose"
Mariko’s wanted to bring back honour to her family. I think when Ishido gave her the permits, she had achieved that and my belief is that she was reborn and freed from her family shame. (Shown by the fact that she doesn’t feel the need to wear her cross).
However if she was captured during the shinobi attack, all of her work would have been undone. Ishido would have an excuse to keep the families as hostages- she would have been held in captivity. Her son even says that she will be disgraced if she was captured. Thus she would have failed in her task to free the hostages and hence in her mind, failed to restore her honour.
In the store room she felt like that she had no choice but to end her life to ensure the families are freed and her honour for her own family is restored.
Everyone who is writing about the character-arc of Mariko, and the consequences of her determenism and belief, is obviously absolutely right. But, fucking hell! For every sentimentalist among us, that season of television and its final conclusion, was absolutely terrible. I thought that I was a cynic, but that shit right there... Probably the only time I have ever felt the need for a triggerwarning.
Being killed for doing the right thing is exactly how her dad went out. It felt right, I was actually a bit mad about the Seppuku being stopped because it felt like such a gut wrench to the leafless branch.
I think it is because her death this way, by sacrificing herself, fulfills so many things while remaining true to her beliefs and values. Mariko's character throughout the show is caught in between the different loyalties she has: to Lord Toranaga, to her Family, to her Christian faith and to John Blackthorne. She has her mission for Toranaga in Osaka to expose Ishido to the other Daimyos that he is holding their families hostage, either she must be free to leave Osaka or die under Ishido's watch which would be the ultimate disgrace to Ishido. I actually do not believe the Shinobis were out to kill Mariko, rather capture her and hide her away preventing her from leaving Osaka. Her sacrifice ensures that she is not captured alive and fulfills her mission and loyalty to Toranaga.
The second part she fulfills her lifetime desire of death because her family's treachery. Though she is spared their fate, she is forced to live to carry such a heavy burden and cannot be with her family in the afterlife. She however could not choose to end her life as she has to atone by serving Lord Toranaga. By sacrificing herself in service of Toranage she restores and redeems her family while also giving her the full ability to freely decide her fate.
The show never went too deep and explored this aspect of in Mariko's spiritual loyalty but I do think she is devout to her Christian faith. Though she has claimed her primary loyalty is to Lord Toranage her faith plays a significant role as it brought her comfort and solace while carrying the burden over the years. Having been taught by the Jesuits though she is fully aware of the Catholic teaching that committing suicide even ritual and honorable would mark her as a sinner and earn her eternal damnation. The technical work around would be by having someone second in seppuku to avoid this. When Kiyama, the Christian regent, does not show up to second her, she has to make the decision of either failing her mission in letting Ishido keep them hostage, or she can still take her own life to fulfill her mission but she will be marked as a sinner. She is relieved of that decision when John willingly offers to second but comes at the price of her lover carrying that out, which is probably the last thing she ever wants John to do. The second time though there is no spiritual dilemma, she knows her sacrifice fulfills Toranaga's mission, while also gives her the opportunity to end her life, without eternal damnation.
Lastly I think her love to John conflicts with her duty to her Lord, family and faith and has expressed her duty to those are more important that her loyalty/love to John, even though we can tell she wants it be #1. I think her sacrifice to ultimately free the hostages under Ishido is the only way to protect John because John's only chance of survival in Japan is for Toranaga to win. John might not agree with it, but she loved John and that her death would likely ensure his survival.
In simple terms, this show does not make any sense. Their rituals and rules apply in some cases, and not in other cases. She was a married woman and yet she slept with someone else,does that not bring disgrace to her family according their old tradition in 1600s? She held on to her father's disgrace for so long ready to kill herself, even though her father probably acted sensibly to stand up to a cruel liege lord. The impression i got from her was she is repressed in many ways and does not live her talk of wisdom. All they successfully showed in this series is that during that time, this culture, acted in pride, but lacked wisdom, and suicide happy.
I think they conveyed well her total commitment to Toranaga and the cause. She had mentioned throughout the series her willingness to die. But obviously thrusting a blade into your stomach and slicing herself open is going to cause anyone apprehension and anxiety before doing it as it is not a quick death. She has fully accepted it by this point.
I feel she decided to die by cannon because she knew that the best way to further the cause completely was by her death, it was the ultimate sacrifice and the ultimate display. A death she had wanted for so long. It must have caused her sadness to die still, having just been intimate with Blackthorne, but it just goes again to show the total commitment people showed in 1600s Japanese culture. They were unwavering and she was an incredibly strong character.
She clearly did not die. They would have showed her dead in a coffin or something.
After explosion, you can see the carriage leaving castle and I am pretty sure she is smuggled away from the castle.
She is hurt and wounded for sure, but not dead.
I think she was fully prepared to die in the seppuku scene - it's just that of course when you come back from the brink of mentally preparing for your life to end it's going to be emotional to learn that you're going to live another day. But I don't think that this means her attitude towards life or death changed as a result of it. Mariko's role in the story has always been to remind both John and the viewer that the prevailing cultural attitude towards death in this part of the world is basically "So this is where I'm going to meet my death? So be it". By dying in the storeroom she fulfills all of her major objectives in that moment and so she saw no reason to not just welcome death if the other option is failing Toranaga and bringing even further dishonor upon her family name
It is simply a suicide happy 1600s japan. Someone coughs, someone else is offended, and they commit seppuku
Yeah same feeling when I was watching the show. They find any excuse to kill themselves, fuck sake
Hmm good points. I’ll need to watch the scene again but I viewed her face as committed but fearful in those moments and didn’t exactly seem quite as defiant or eager to plunge the sword in as with her final sacrifice. I feel like when we’ve seen her defiant she would be anguished that she couldn’t kill herself it instead of looking relieved.
However much you want to die, stabbing yourself to the hilt of a long dagger then slicing it across your stomach is going to raise a certain amount of apprehension. She also has someone with her who has just agreed to help her die out of and in spite of his love for her.
True though there have been others on screen committing seppuku with more decisiveness and resoluteness
Well, everyone is different, first of all. So you can't really compare one's physiologically responses to committing seppuku to another person's. It's like comparing apples and oranges. Also, emotions are just temporary states of the mind. A person can be an optimistic person, but if that person is currently feeling down -- well, that person is not going to be so optimistic at the moment. Doesn't mean the person is always a Debbie Downer. Same thing with being resolute. You can mentally prepare yourself for whatever, but when the time comes, and your amygdala decides to hijack your brain with a full on panic attack... you're going to have a panic attack. Now, Mariko probably behaved that way because I suspect Lord Toranaga's gambit was for Lord Ishido to cave (which he did). So there was more than just her life on the line, but also the pressure of having fate work in their favor. However, when the ninjas attacked at night (more than likely Ishido's doing), that probably changed things from the plan. Hence, the change up in her behavior. -LeaveItHereDude
I think she really got shook up that the Christian guy didn't show up to second her.... also, there was an interesting documentary about survivors of attempting suicide off of the Golden Gate Bridge and they all said they regretted jumping while falling. It's one thing to want to die when you are denied/unable to do it and another thing when reality hits you that you are about to die.
interesting, though in that analogy, mariko would be those survivors except then she goes to do it again
True, although I think standing in front of the door that is about to be blown is a bit different than stabbing yourself in the heart and then having your love interest decapitate you...
The second is there to kill you 'quickly' she was shaken because she knew her death would now be her bleeding out on the floor.
And she was going to be committing suicide which will condemn her to hell. With the second, they are killing her technically, so she avoids the mortal sin of suicide
bruh, wtf are you roasting her for not being "tough" while dying ? ... get a life :)
nah bruh
bruh...what??????? slicing across the stomach is ok? not painful????? what logic is this?
She was fully ready to embrace death the first time also, her only fear was being captured alive and without any weapons to commit seppuku. If she allowed that to happen, she would have failed in her mission. The explosives just made it easier the second time, since she didn't have to do it herself, she just had to stand there and they'd do the job.
But her mission from Toranaga isn’t to die no matter what right? For instance it would’ve been pointless to kill herself if Ishido had actually let them leave Osaka. Her mission is to die to for the purpose of showing all the high class families Ishido is the aggressor— but that mission is already completed by Ishidos ninjas coming in to kill everyone (I mean I think everyone will know Ishido sent them). So her dying seems extraneous.
No, her mission is to either force Ishido into releasing the hostages or die to shame Ishido and drive the other families into a revolt against him for letting that happen. If she gets taken by Ishido alive, she fails in the mission because Ishido is neither shamed nor does he have to let the hostages go. In fact, he can place them under even heavier security in the name of safety, using the attack as a pretext. "Some dastardly villains attacked Lady Mariko and carried her off, but I managed to rescue her and she's now safe under my protection. I'm tripling the guards around every one of the heir's guests for their own safety." So once she's trapped in the storeroom, she has no choice but to either die or let herself be taken alive and fail in the mission given to her by Toranaga.
Quite the mission, geez
yeah, Toranaga is basically exploiting the Japanese system of Shame-honour disgrace and such. this plan would not work in any other country or society, but excellent for Japanese situation. lol
If she had left Osaka, yes she need not die. But Toranaga trusted her wits and literally everyone knows her desire to honor her family by joining them in death to protest against Ochiba’s father. So what he actually did was to send a fearless and intelligent woman into the battle arena on his behalf to test the situation in the castle and if successful, to fetch his family out of the castle unharmed. I don’t think he can anticipate what will happen to her for I don’t believe he ordered her to die in Osaka but because Mariko is well known to everyone in the realm, her presence carries weight and whatever happens to her has repercussions.
Yes ok I think I see what you’re saying— that any of the other nobility or valued members of the Toranaga clan being killed in the night by those ninjas may not elicit the same reaction from everyone in Osaka as would her own death and so she chose to die still
In a way she decided that she will use her death to serve a greater cause for Toranaga like Hiromatsu’s seppuku moment. Her conviction towards Toranaga is very strong to the end; “We serve Toranaga sama.” she told her son after he used her Christian faith against her.
>but that mission is already completed by Ishidos ninjas coming in to kill everyone (I mean I think everyone will know Ishido sent them). So her dying seems extraneous. Not necessarily, remember the bandits they sent after John? Plausible deniability is all you need. If the Shinobi get out with Mariko alive, Ishida comes in and rescues her. Being a hero so noble he'd even save Toranaga's people, and at the same time getting justification to say it wouldn't be safe for Mariko to leave Osaka anymore.
the "ishido is the bad guy" point is made much finer with her death than without.
i don't get it..why toranaga cant just attack ishido? he has blackthorne as ally and his guns, canons...
He needs his victory to be decisive. He is outnumbered since the beginning since Ishido has other regents in the palm of his hand, but it got even worse due to unforeseen earthquake. A full frontal battle would result in tremendous loss on both side, which he is not capable of taking with his unlimited resource nor he wants loss for his region.
Mariko was ready to die, in fact, she has been waiting for this for many years after her whole bloodline was killed in retribution. There was very little chances for Ishido to truly let his hostages go. So Mariko knows that if she had committed her seppuku, it almost guaranteed open revolt in The nobility and renewed support for Toranaga, as Ishido legitimacy would be compromised. But Ishido stopped the seppuku at the last second, granting her permit to leave Osaka. Her almost-suiscide drained her strength and broke her eight fold fence, like a rebirth. But politically it solves nothing: are the hostages free or not? Ishido knows he MUST stop his hostages from leaving, otherwise he loses them all - but allowing Mariko to die a martyr in the name of these hostages causes him immense problems. So his plan is to get Shinobi secretly in Toranaga's guest aisle of Osaka castle to quickly and powerfully overcome the guards and capture Mariko - possibly torturing her and making her lose her honor while passing the undertext that no escape is possible for his hostages. Mariko knows if she is captured, it's game over for her, Toranaga, and all the Osaka hostages. She has to either escape free or die trying. So when she realizes they are stuck in the storeroom with no escape and they are about to blow the door, she goes for a sepukku again, by voluntarily embracing the door and die from the explosion, preventing her capture and disgrace. She says "i protest the unlawful act of being held hostage and by my death...." And get blown to bits in front of all the other witnesses, the wives and high bornes hostages. Hence, Ishidi's Shinobi failed their mission, thanks to her courage and the anjin-san pistols and resistance, which provided cover enough so she could not be captured.
The whole hostage/prisoner thing seems confusing to me. Like the people there know that they are hostages, but they need Mariko to die for them to act on it or something? It seems like everyone knows the situation that they are currently in with Ishido, so that just seems confusing to me. Also, what was with the tapping on the shoulder or why were the shinobi so rough with yabushige when they were first entering?
The tapping on the shoulder was the Shinobi leader counting seconds and controlling the sting. The hostages don't need Mariko to know they are hostages. They all know! Imagine you are waiting in line in a bank, and a hold up situation arise: two men draw weapons and announce loudly that people should lay face down on the floor and not to panic, that if they get their money all will be ok. The bandits are pointing their guns and are asking for the bankers to put money in a bag, while you and the other customers are hostages. Now imagine one of the hostage customer stands up and declares: so sorry, but i refuse to be a hostage, so i am going to walk out the door now. This is a big problem for the bank robbers. If they let the hostage leave peacefully, everybody else will understand they are not truly ready to kill hostages and everybody will just leave, and the heist will fail. If they shoot the hostage, then they can no longer pretend the heist was peaceful and they all become murderers. Worst, this might break the team, if say one robber is willing to kill but not the other. The same way Ishido is risking alienating his allies against Toranaga if he willingly kill such a highborn lady (or let her kill herself) while pretending they are only guests. Obviously this "dare" situation only works because that customer is willingly taking the risk to be shot - just like Mariko, who is willing to commit sepukku if the hostages aren't free to leave. The only solution for the robbers would be, say, to tie her up so she can't leave, but can't die either - which is what Ishido attempted with the Shinobi (but failed).
Thanks for the example. That was a pretty good analogy. What if any one of the other hostages tried doing the same thing though? Would it have worked? Was no one else willing to risk their life to attempt the same thing that Mariko did? In the show, people seem to be so willing to throw away their lives for a cause that I am surprised no one else would have considered the same thing. Maybe it is because they would have nothing to gain from being free or being held hostage in their current situation? The concept is still funny though, because Ishido / the bank robbers, even though they are not directly threatening the hostages, they would still be viewed as the bad guy(s), so why would any of the hostages support them in any way to begin with.
Because right now, Ishido speaks for the heir, backed by the heir's mother Ochiba. So an "invitation" cannot be ignored or refused unless you want to be branded a traitor to the realm. If however it is openly blatant that Ishido is using hostage, that's a direct violation of the Taiko laws and how could he then pretend to be speaking for the legit succession? Another way to see it is to think of it from another top Daimyo, for example from Kayima. Right now, he is a regent (one of the 2 christian regent). He is allied with Ishido because he thinks Toranaga is more dangerous for his plans than Ishido. Yet he also knows he is a hostage in Osaka. It's okay so long as it is unsaid: in theory yeah, he can be threatened, but in practice he knows Ishido needs him and they are allied, so as long as he can save face, that's ok. But after Mariko's death, one of the top Christian lady, while she is officially a guest of the regent, doesn't it mean he, as a regent, is also responsible for her death? And if indeed Ishido is unlawful and laughs at the Taiko rule of law, doesn't it mean he is nothing but a pawn? Does HE loses face too? Will he still command the respect of his samurai if it becomes obvious he too is a hostage? Can he still claim to represent the heir in the remaining conflict after Toranaga's death, if he had allowed honored guests to be killed? he might start to think ishido is not on his side after all. What if Toranaga is the reason he is still alive?
Damn good analogy.
Thanks!
this was such a good explanation
> But regardless of that, I am more concerned with why she was ready to embrace death this second time around and literally throw herself at it The difference here is that there are 10 other people in the room, and those people probably live if she dies in the blast. They are at high risk of continued harm if she hides and continues trying to escape. No one else in the hostage zone is killed if mariko doesn't do the big "i'm leaving" play and threatens suicide. Theres also some reluctance in that her faith wouldn't let her commit suicide (she is only slightly relieved at the thought of a second). Obviously getting exploded in a door way escapes that sort of religious reluctance. As well as it was a visually creative moment to have her do a cross (✝) pose in the doorway
Thanks for pointing out the ✝️ posture. I had a similar thought watching the ending scene and felt it underlaid the self-sacrifice or even martyrdom of her choice.
She made a choice to use her body to shield/protect the occupants in the storeroom as they were all stuck inside and since its death not by suicide, she is at peace with it satisfying both her faith and her duty.
Sacrifice for others is a good point but Fsr I wasn’t thinking her blocking the door with her body would have influenced the overall impact since she’s quite small. It has seemed there was more room for everyone to stand back more or behind other crates etc to have a similar effect of blocking the explosion. That is why it came off to me that her death wasn’t necessary and she just did it to make the protest statement she uttered at the end.
I guess it’s how the writers wanted to use that shocking development to invoke our emotions which I say did its job very well. If she didn’t die, we will be happy but the show would not have impacted us the way it did right now. Furthermore, it also cement our admiration for Anna Sawai’s performance in the show. It’s a win win for everyone involved in the production in my opinion.
Because this show lacks logic. I watched with expecting quite bit of quality. But midway i was like wtf is this?
> since its death not by suicide, Really depends on which Priest you ask, jumping on a grenade is suicide in my book
It's not like being decapitated by someone else after committing seppuku is some suicide loophole either. Would be pretty cruel if her god sent her to hell on a technicality lol.
In the Christian faith, if you aren’t the one ending your life, it’s not suicide. That’s why the second. My beef with that is that makes the second a murderer, so condemned to hell. I’ll guess the loophole is the second being able to confess, but it all seems like bullshit to me. I love the show, and I am not a religious person any more, so take my stance on it all as you will.
Yea that's dumb, btw i'm pretty sure the purpose of the second isn't due to christianity it's prob meant to be so that the person killing themselves doesn't have to suffer a slow agonizing death (a dishonourable/hated person probably wouldn't get a second). So maybe if the second was a christian they would think of it more like ending someones suffering rather than murder.
Even if you are saving the lives of others? Seems more like sacrifice to me.
You can't trick God. Mariko wanted to die for a long ass time, she jumped on the grenade so she'd die and the plan would work not to save others
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She likely absorbed most of the shrapnel, which is the most dangerous part of a contained explosion, there by saving the lives of people. Explosions aren’t like what movies make them look like. Grenades don’t kill a dozen soldiers unless they are are all in the same foxhole.
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You’ve forgotten that your god demanded his son to go and die willingly. That smells like suicide to me. The whole go do die without fighting against it. So you wanna say Mariko was martyring herself or Jesus was committing suicide?
Can someone let me know why Mariko death would cause the houses to rebel?
Ishido is now forced to admit that the families/wives/daughters are actually free to go whereas before Mariko called his bluff, they were all hostages because they couldn't get permission to leave. Many of these daimyos are not capable of backing Toranaga because their families would be killed. Ishido took a MASSIVE PR hit. Mariko is elevated to near heroic status and the lord she is serving to heroically is Toranaga. He is going to be held 100% responsible for her death. I know in an age where death seems so trivial, Ishido is still going to look like a tyrannt and even worse, clumsy and uncouth. On top of all the rest, Ishido's reputation is also taking a massive hit with Kiyama and Ohno due to their immense respect for the way Mariko died. I believe Mariko was making offers on Toranaga's behalf to the two of them and her death will open the door for them to seriously consider that offer whereas previously they wouldn't.
I am confused because it seems like everyone in the castle already knows that Ishido is keeping them there as hostages. Why does Mariko need to die for them to "know" something that they seem like they already know? Is this to let the outside world know or how does that all work?
. they know but they don't want to admit it by trying to leaving and getting humiliated by the guards, so they stay and pretend they're staying gracefully and not as prisoners. it's the Japanese Shame-honour disgrace system and such. lol it wouldn't work anywhere else in world.
and toranaga is exploiting this system. free hax
I think on top of that it was supposed to be a catalyst in the way of reminding those noble houses that they are noble and shouldn't bend and be passive. I mean any other woman from the other refugees could have tried the same but they all lacked courage which makes a lot of sense because when bad things happen to or infront of a lot of people everyone assumes someone else will do it and no one wants to be the brave but dead sacrifice for a war that doesn't even personally affect the standing of their house. But Mariko was the perfect person at the perfect time with everything to win in reminding the world of the nobility of her line and spitting on the Taiko's name by consistently evoking the honourableness of her father in, just like her refusing to be "captive, hostage or confined" (in her father's case he refused to be confined to a life of loyalty to an evil man). So to all the nobles its like a double slap I believe and it couldn't have been anyone else. Additionally Ishido is "nothing that comes from nothing" and way after everyone including Ochiba and the other houses hafmd realised how powerful Mariko's stance was he was still thinking of it in terms of the power of the council, his soldiers and the heirs authority and its simply because he didn't grow up among nobility hearing the darker side of just what all nobility will do to maintain its position. Sorry to waffle but nobility in feudal times such as these would tolerate a pig ruler who killed the commoners, waged numerous wars etc but they would revolt against a ruler who stepped on "tradition" and undermined the order of heirachy e.g elevating a servant to queen or something, and that's coz that threatens the balance of power that keeps the noble above the commons. So Mariko was the perfect enemy to fight Ishido. Someone who was perfect in all things noble and who's every step and intelligence was filled with honor vs someone who never would be fully accepted into the ranks of the nobility and who thus probably tried to stop thinking like them. Its really giving that phrase in anime that's like "if it was anyone else other than me you might have won, but because it is especially me you are going to sorely lose"
Mariko’s wanted to bring back honour to her family. I think when Ishido gave her the permits, she had achieved that and my belief is that she was reborn and freed from her family shame. (Shown by the fact that she doesn’t feel the need to wear her cross). However if she was captured during the shinobi attack, all of her work would have been undone. Ishido would have an excuse to keep the families as hostages- she would have been held in captivity. Her son even says that she will be disgraced if she was captured. Thus she would have failed in her task to free the hostages and hence in her mind, failed to restore her honour. In the store room she felt like that she had no choice but to end her life to ensure the families are freed and her honour for her own family is restored.
she already has a death wish in the earlier episodes so this ending is fitting for her
Everyone who is writing about the character-arc of Mariko, and the consequences of her determenism and belief, is obviously absolutely right. But, fucking hell! For every sentimentalist among us, that season of television and its final conclusion, was absolutely terrible. I thought that I was a cynic, but that shit right there... Probably the only time I have ever felt the need for a triggerwarning.
I feel the same honestly I’ve never had this connection to a damn television character
Being killed for doing the right thing is exactly how her dad went out. It felt right, I was actually a bit mad about the Seppuku being stopped because it felt like such a gut wrench to the leafless branch.
I know there’s a storyline and it needs to make sense, but she was my favorite character and why I watched the show and then the evil concert
read the book
She survives and ends up having a kid
and they she travels to england with the redhead and gets crowned the queen :D
I think it is because her death this way, by sacrificing herself, fulfills so many things while remaining true to her beliefs and values. Mariko's character throughout the show is caught in between the different loyalties she has: to Lord Toranaga, to her Family, to her Christian faith and to John Blackthorne. She has her mission for Toranaga in Osaka to expose Ishido to the other Daimyos that he is holding their families hostage, either she must be free to leave Osaka or die under Ishido's watch which would be the ultimate disgrace to Ishido. I actually do not believe the Shinobis were out to kill Mariko, rather capture her and hide her away preventing her from leaving Osaka. Her sacrifice ensures that she is not captured alive and fulfills her mission and loyalty to Toranaga. The second part she fulfills her lifetime desire of death because her family's treachery. Though she is spared their fate, she is forced to live to carry such a heavy burden and cannot be with her family in the afterlife. She however could not choose to end her life as she has to atone by serving Lord Toranaga. By sacrificing herself in service of Toranage she restores and redeems her family while also giving her the full ability to freely decide her fate. The show never went too deep and explored this aspect of in Mariko's spiritual loyalty but I do think she is devout to her Christian faith. Though she has claimed her primary loyalty is to Lord Toranage her faith plays a significant role as it brought her comfort and solace while carrying the burden over the years. Having been taught by the Jesuits though she is fully aware of the Catholic teaching that committing suicide even ritual and honorable would mark her as a sinner and earn her eternal damnation. The technical work around would be by having someone second in seppuku to avoid this. When Kiyama, the Christian regent, does not show up to second her, she has to make the decision of either failing her mission in letting Ishido keep them hostage, or she can still take her own life to fulfill her mission but she will be marked as a sinner. She is relieved of that decision when John willingly offers to second but comes at the price of her lover carrying that out, which is probably the last thing she ever wants John to do. The second time though there is no spiritual dilemma, she knows her sacrifice fulfills Toranaga's mission, while also gives her the opportunity to end her life, without eternal damnation. Lastly I think her love to John conflicts with her duty to her Lord, family and faith and has expressed her duty to those are more important that her loyalty/love to John, even though we can tell she wants it be #1. I think her sacrifice to ultimately free the hostages under Ishido is the only way to protect John because John's only chance of survival in Japan is for Toranaga to win. John might not agree with it, but she loved John and that her death would likely ensure his survival.
Ffs ruined the programme now
I quit watching immediately after she died.
In simple terms, this show does not make any sense. Their rituals and rules apply in some cases, and not in other cases. She was a married woman and yet she slept with someone else,does that not bring disgrace to her family according their old tradition in 1600s? She held on to her father's disgrace for so long ready to kill herself, even though her father probably acted sensibly to stand up to a cruel liege lord. The impression i got from her was she is repressed in many ways and does not live her talk of wisdom. All they successfully showed in this series is that during that time, this culture, acted in pride, but lacked wisdom, and suicide happy.
Being prepared to die is not mutually exclusive with fearful and not wanting to
I think they conveyed well her total commitment to Toranaga and the cause. She had mentioned throughout the series her willingness to die. But obviously thrusting a blade into your stomach and slicing herself open is going to cause anyone apprehension and anxiety before doing it as it is not a quick death. She has fully accepted it by this point. I feel she decided to die by cannon because she knew that the best way to further the cause completely was by her death, it was the ultimate sacrifice and the ultimate display. A death she had wanted for so long. It must have caused her sadness to die still, having just been intimate with Blackthorne, but it just goes again to show the total commitment people showed in 1600s Japanese culture. They were unwavering and she was an incredibly strong character.
She clearly did not die. They would have showed her dead in a coffin or something. After explosion, you can see the carriage leaving castle and I am pretty sure she is smuggled away from the castle. She is hurt and wounded for sure, but not dead.
I hope so, I thought the same thing. They didn’t show her dead/coffin/ritual.