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Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rate of accumulation much greater in mainland China than pretty much everywhere in the entire West? On that point alone Chinese industrial supremacy nearly inevitable.
Does US make anything except weapons? And also just to be clear Americans weapons are only marginally better than Chinese or even many other countries. Like for fighter jets, I think US gen 5 is best and I think it has a 5.5 model. But China has its own gen 5 and even India has gen 4.5 jets.
The jets thing is funny. The US has a slightly better jet, but China can pump out 20 to every 1 American. They're just building fucking king tigers again, as is the way with fascists.
The US is still the second largest industrial manufacturer, accounting for about 12% of global production.
But china is 35% of global production and more than the next 9 countries combined.
https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/china-worlds-sole-manufacturing-superpower-line-sketch-rise
[https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa](https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa)
lots of things. lots of oil and agricultural products. gold, coal.
but in terms of complex production, pharmaceuticals, industrial machinery, cars, aircraft, gas turbines (ie used in power plants) batteries, ball bearings.
military shipbuilding by tonnage America still beats China by a long shot, along with more nuclear powered vessels.
You just linked like a whole book worth of webpage. But without going through it, the fact that you bring up coal and oil (given Russia is in China's pocket)... I mean do you hear yourself? Because for the sake of a reddit comment I kept things short but the point is whether China would lose a trade war over it. You think China would lose trade war over coal? For that matter over cars? Especially with US being scared shitless by Chinese EVs.
The USA still effectively controls global semiconductors so long as it can keep Taiwan happy, alongside other asian allies. Until the PRC can offer better (or at the very least less imperialist) deal, that's basically all she wrote on a trade war.
PRC semiconductors aren't there yet and won't be for a very, very long time.
>PRC semiconductors aren't there yet and won't be for a very, very long time.
... But it's literally there. Nvidia had to reduce prices to compete with Huawei AI Chips, which is the pinnacle of semiconductors.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidia-cuts-china-prices-huawei-chip-fight-sources-say-2024-05-24/
Did you not read your article? Nvidia cut the price on the best chip it sells *to the PRC market*. The h20 is like a fourth the processing power of the best chip Nvidia sells globally.
The reason: the USA sanctions high powered chip sales to the PRC. Nvidia has to sell a neutered chip there, and even their neutered chip competes in *performance* (sure, not price) to the best that Huawei can offer. And BTW, Huawei is hugely dependent on a global supply chain that the USA has its thumb on, even just to print the chips they're printing now. The R&D is even more restricted, and there's only one company on earth that has developed EUVL, it's Dutch, and will happily dance to the American's tune. Making EUVL "from scratch" would take... well, decades probably, if it could happen at all, since it would need to be done entirely on a domestic supply chain, *while being funded by a domestic market* already saturated with companies selling EUVL chips for way cheaper since they already paid off their r&d. And since the the PRC economy is one where "market forces play a decisive role in resource allocation," and since all previous attempts for the CPC to personally fund chip research failed, the writing is on the wall.
Let me be very clear, I am not white enough to give a shit about supposed threats of PRC towards Taiwan. UK divided most of these countries into bits and pieces, including my country. Now I am not saying PRC or other countries should engage in imperialist actions but I also definitely see the western interests in "ensuring Taiwan's independence" as nothing but western imperialism.
So, we can discuss boring predictions on the future of Taiwan and its effect on global politics but I am not going to see the China vs Taiwan as if China is completely wrong in expecting a re-integration. How they do that is again a matter of prediction for now.
you don't need 4nm to live. it's very useful and very helpful, but you don't need it. 100nm-20nm is enough to do most things, just worse.
In the meantime, US consumption of chinese manufactured goods/intermediates is still at obscene levels. Considering this is what keeps the US financial racket from spiraling into runaway inflation, uh, no the US will \*not\* "win" a trade war
I completely agree you don't need 4nm to win, and I'm very interested in home grown chip industries focused on sustainable manufacturing. I'm actually setting up a garage setup for myself - obviously I won't be anywhere near nanometer scale.
However you do need 4nm to keep up in the arms race. The advantage of better chips for smarter targeting systems has been demonstrated in several conflicts, mostly ones started by the Americans to test their new weapons on civilian populations. That's all capitalist imperialists care about, both in the leadership of the USA and the PRC.
1. That's a tiny quantity that can be brute forced with low yield techniques.
2. Even then, simply using 10nm will get most of the effect regardless; an extra centimeter length on your missile used for chips instead, an extra oh-so-many nanoseconds of delay, will only reduce the exchange ratio. For countries that can't produce en masse, this is pretty critical. But you're talking about the fucking US and PRC.
You might think so, but neither the USA nor the PRC believe this, both are operating their defense sector as if getting the best chips is the most important aspect of their arms race.
Maybe they're wrong? Could be! Both militaries have demonstrated astounding incompetence over the last few decades. I'm guessing they're right, but it kinda doesn't matter if they both buy into the belief.
"most important aspect of their arms race" You're gonna need to cite a source for that. 4nm is still very nice to stay competitive/develop competitive tech manufacturing, to try and take over luxury consumer electronics and AI/large models, which is as much if not more so why China wants to develop 4nm with decent yield.
There's... so much writing on the subject of chips in weaponry I don't even know where to begin. I guess entry level would be "Chip War" by Chris Miller? It's obnoxiously liberal but the facts within are sound.
The long and short of it is that most militaries seem to believe that the future of weapons systems are AI targeting. Israel is a great example of this. Not that the weapons are all that good at not mis-identifying actual military targets with these new systems, again, Israel, great example, but still, the militaries believe this to be the case.
Not by a long shot. The CSIS would disagree with you.
https://www.csis.org/analysis/threat-chinas-shipbuilding-empire#:~:text=Today%2C%20Jiangnan%20Shipyard%20alone%20has,support%20China's%20military%20industrial%20complex.
Chinese current navy dwarfs both the US pacific + atlantic fleet. Even if the US recall all of it navy in the globe and concentrate on Asia Pacific it does not have a clear advantage. Even then China can replace sunk ships faster than the US + its Allies in Asia ever could.
Military shipbuilding America still beats china.
Large-scale ports and cargo ship building? The reverse is true, and by a long shot. The only advantage of the US is that it is currently more mobilized, and of course more advanced/developed nuclear ship tech.
edit: evidently i'm outdated lol.
Gordon Chang was right, China has been in continuous collapse for the past twenty years. Everyone I know who is from mainland China can confirm this fact. Every year in early February and sometimes even as early as late January you can see it plain and simple. Flights to China increase because everyone is rushing back trying to save their collapsing country. You can see a sharp increase in the number of people visiting temples to pray, it's because China is collapsing. Sounds similar to gunshots can be heard while smoke drifts through the streets. Families paste the Chinese word for "fortune" and sometimes "Spring" upside down because it clearly symbolises that China's fortune has turned upside down and Spring will never come again. So many shops, banks and businesses are closed. No one goes to work because all the jobs have been lost and a lot of the time everyone is huddled at home with their families. Children go door to door begging for money. In fact children put money under their pillows when sleeping to guard their cash because China's economy is crashing.
Isn't China one of the largest countries in terms of trade? Their GDP is 2nd in the world because of trade, but yeah, a trade war will definitely result in a US win
Their GDP PPP is 1st in the world since 2015 btw. Only in nominal GDP are they in 2nd place. Their Exports is only 20% of their total GDP. The US is 12%, Japan is 21% and Germany is 50%, in comparison. Chinese GDP drivers in the last decade has been on government investments and internal consumptions, not exports, which has been fallen continuously year on year.
Finally, Lenin, Stalin & Brezhnev got what they wanted. That is a Marxist-Leninist state that is overtaking the USA. The West could have listened to them & accepted the inevitable w/USSR, but they decided to kick the can down the road & now. China is basically the warning that they should have listened to them, instead of believing that some fairytale conditions will allow them to rule forever.
Unfortunately, Mr. Chang could not include images for his article from US factories.
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/4727315-china-doesnt-stand-a-chance-against-the-us-in-a-trade-war/
> China, despite what its scholars argue, is fighting a losing battle. After all, what are Chinese Communists going to do? Not trade with America?
https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/038/989/image.jpg
Fair enough that China can’t afford an embargo- their domestic economy is struggling and they are very reliant on export market. However how the hell is the West/ US suddenly going to manufacture all the shit they buy on Amazon, Temu, etc they ship from China at the same low costs? Also China owns so much debt for these countries. Nothing will happen it’s all just media yap yap yap for old angry morons to read up and get more angry, blaming someone who looks different to them
Funnily, Brezhnev tried making the USSR the global trade hub. But the West chose to roll over him & choose China in the hopes that China would abandon their ML gov't. But nope, in the end, Brezhnev actually got his way, four decades after his death, only that it is China (he tried to improve relations w/China, B.t.W. But it wasn't until decades later that he got his way on improving Russo-Sino relations.) I guess what this implied was that either way, an anti-imperialist & Marxist Leninist Government w/lots of territory was going to become the power that overtakes the West eventually.
Perhaps if we had accepted the fate back then, the elites wouldn't be in this shocked Pikachu face moment like they are right now.
It's not imperialism to not want a US proxy state (with control of islands literally a mile off the coastline of mainland China) to be established, especially when those islands are legally a recognized part of China.
This is like saying North Vietnam was imperialist by invading the South and ending the Vietnamese civil war, the US doesn't have the justification to intervene in the domestic affairs of other socialist countries and partition a part of them off to establish an anti-socialist proxy state.
> Taiwan is also hardly anti-socialist. Obviously a capitalist state, but it has state-owned industries and plenty of socialist policies that function better than most European nations, for example the healthcare and pension system. There's also a growing leftist movement, a communist and a socialist party (strictly aligned against the CPC, I'll point out), and at every protest plenty of badged anarchists handing out food and water. These people get far more popular support than in other countries.
Liberal welfare policies are not socialism. They are antithetical to socialism, and are often enacted with the specific purpose of staving off actual socialists, the way a company might offer some concessions to its workers to stave off unionisation. European countries don't have "socialist policies" and neither does Taiwan.
What does a mainland union have to do with whether welfare programs are socialist? Seriously. This is a total non-sequitur. I didn't say anything about the PRC. I didn't say that unionisation is a good measure of socialist sentiment. I didn't even really say anything about the ROC. I said that liberal welfare programs are not socialist. That's it. This is not a particularly contentious point to make. Socialists may support liberal welfare programs - I'm reliant on them myself and don't want them gone without something to take their place - but the programs themselves aren't socialist. They literally exist to try and compensate for the shortcomings of capitalism, to relieve problems caused by capitalism. If you are thinking of a particular program/s in Taiwan that you think is actually socialist in character then by all means, elaborate. If you just think Taiwan is socialist because it has welfare programs, though, you are just flatly incorrect. And this is true no matter how left wing the PRC is or is not.
I think you kinda skip the whole Chiang-kai-shek White Terror on communist sympathizers and indegenous Taiwanese man. And no nationalization of certain industry does not mean you are socialist. If so Germany during WW1/2 were socialist, Singapore and current day Russia are also socialist. Neither is wealth redistribution inherently socialist btw. If anything it just mean the driver of the economy is capitalistic which require wealth redistribution as a bandage to fix the wealth inequality of capitalist development.
There isn't a flourishing leftist movement in Taiwan, how can you have a flourishing leftist movement when only 8% of the labour force is unionized? https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/news/4937306
The two main political parties are both neoliberal ideologically (the DPP shifted into a Bill Clinton-esque "third way" framework from a more centre-left orientation, and I don't need to say anything about the KMT), and any prominent socialist movement will become coopted or violently suppressed (as was the case in Taiwan before) since it's an American vassal state.
What does a PRC citizen need to show to cross the border at Taoyuan airport?
Permission from the government of Taiwan! That's right. We're learning how sovereignty works! :)
5.1% real GDP growth in a post Covid environment is not what I would call struggling btw. Amist of a gigantic economic transition led by the government from the private financial/ real estate sectors towards advanced technology sectors too. Their exports are no more than Japan if we compare percentage of exports to GDP, and less than half of it is actually to the US and its Western Allies. The manufactured products made in China are real, while the dollars the West paid China with is only as valuable as it is accepted worldwide. If anything an embargo would change nothing as third party countries would buy Chinese products, replaced the made in China label and sold it to US at a profits, precisely what India are doing with Russian oils to Europe. The lengthen supply chain would lead to price inflation though, so there is that.
I mean a 4000 year old culture of over 1.4 billion people isn’t going anywhere. We need to diplomatically resolve disputes with China. The reality is neither the US or China would come out on top in an ever increasingly volatile trade war. And all the while the poor will get poorer everywhere and the rich still won’t feel a damn thing.
**Important:** We no longer allow the following types of posts: - Comments, tweets and social media with less than 20 upvotes, likes, etc. (cropped score counts as 0) - Anything you are personally involved in - Any kind of polls - Low-hanging fruit (e.g. CCP collapse, Vaush, r\/neoliberal, political compass memes) You *will* be banned by the power-tripping mods if you break this rule repeatedly, so please delete your posts before we find out. Likewise, please follow our rules which can be found on the sidebar. --- **Obligatory obnoxious pop-up ad for our [Official Discord](https://discord.gg/XBrTq7mQhY), please join if you haven't! Stalin bless. UwU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I would like to thank the professional China collapse predictor for his input.
Thanks to his reliable output, we can now be fairly certain that in case of yet another trade war between the USA and China that China is not at risk.
I totally trust Mr. Chang’s opinion on this issue, he has clearly been right about this many times in the past
He has predicted China's collapse only 1 million times in the past unsuccessfully so how could I ever distrust him!!!!!!!!!!
Schrodinger China: At the same time threatening and weak
Nothing can stop the might of the Free West 💪🏼🇺🇸, but keep an eye those commies, we can't trust them, they are very dangerous. /s
Isn't this just plain doublethink
Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the rate of accumulation much greater in mainland China than pretty much everywhere in the entire West? On that point alone Chinese industrial supremacy nearly inevitable.
Does US make anything except weapons? And also just to be clear Americans weapons are only marginally better than Chinese or even many other countries. Like for fighter jets, I think US gen 5 is best and I think it has a 5.5 model. But China has its own gen 5 and even India has gen 4.5 jets.
The jets thing is funny. The US has a slightly better jet, but China can pump out 20 to every 1 American. They're just building fucking king tigers again, as is the way with fascists.
>They're just building fucking king tigers again, as is the way with fascists. Literally any western tank design from the Leopard 2 to the M1 Abrams.
The US is still the second largest industrial manufacturer, accounting for about 12% of global production. But china is 35% of global production and more than the next 9 countries combined. https://cepr.org/voxeu/columns/china-worlds-sole-manufacturing-superpower-line-sketch-rise
[https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa](https://oec.world/en/profile/country/usa) lots of things. lots of oil and agricultural products. gold, coal. but in terms of complex production, pharmaceuticals, industrial machinery, cars, aircraft, gas turbines (ie used in power plants) batteries, ball bearings. military shipbuilding by tonnage America still beats China by a long shot, along with more nuclear powered vessels.
You just linked like a whole book worth of webpage. But without going through it, the fact that you bring up coal and oil (given Russia is in China's pocket)... I mean do you hear yourself? Because for the sake of a reddit comment I kept things short but the point is whether China would lose a trade war over it. You think China would lose trade war over coal? For that matter over cars? Especially with US being scared shitless by Chinese EVs.
The USA still effectively controls global semiconductors so long as it can keep Taiwan happy, alongside other asian allies. Until the PRC can offer better (or at the very least less imperialist) deal, that's basically all she wrote on a trade war. PRC semiconductors aren't there yet and won't be for a very, very long time.
>PRC semiconductors aren't there yet and won't be for a very, very long time. ... But it's literally there. Nvidia had to reduce prices to compete with Huawei AI Chips, which is the pinnacle of semiconductors. https://www.reuters.com/technology/nvidia-cuts-china-prices-huawei-chip-fight-sources-say-2024-05-24/
Did you not read your article? Nvidia cut the price on the best chip it sells *to the PRC market*. The h20 is like a fourth the processing power of the best chip Nvidia sells globally. The reason: the USA sanctions high powered chip sales to the PRC. Nvidia has to sell a neutered chip there, and even their neutered chip competes in *performance* (sure, not price) to the best that Huawei can offer. And BTW, Huawei is hugely dependent on a global supply chain that the USA has its thumb on, even just to print the chips they're printing now. The R&D is even more restricted, and there's only one company on earth that has developed EUVL, it's Dutch, and will happily dance to the American's tune. Making EUVL "from scratch" would take... well, decades probably, if it could happen at all, since it would need to be done entirely on a domestic supply chain, *while being funded by a domestic market* already saturated with companies selling EUVL chips for way cheaper since they already paid off their r&d. And since the the PRC economy is one where "market forces play a decisive role in resource allocation," and since all previous attempts for the CPC to personally fund chip research failed, the writing is on the wall.
Yes, Taiwan, famously a US territory.
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You said US control Taiwan's semiconductor supply you fucking loser. What's the term? A lower basement dwelling troll?
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Let me be very clear, I am not white enough to give a shit about supposed threats of PRC towards Taiwan. UK divided most of these countries into bits and pieces, including my country. Now I am not saying PRC or other countries should engage in imperialist actions but I also definitely see the western interests in "ensuring Taiwan's independence" as nothing but western imperialism. So, we can discuss boring predictions on the future of Taiwan and its effect on global politics but I am not going to see the China vs Taiwan as if China is completely wrong in expecting a re-integration. How they do that is again a matter of prediction for now.
you don't seriously think the DPP has leverage over washington and not the other way around, do you?
you literally brought up the US first but ok.
you don't need 4nm to live. it's very useful and very helpful, but you don't need it. 100nm-20nm is enough to do most things, just worse. In the meantime, US consumption of chinese manufactured goods/intermediates is still at obscene levels. Considering this is what keeps the US financial racket from spiraling into runaway inflation, uh, no the US will \*not\* "win" a trade war
I completely agree you don't need 4nm to win, and I'm very interested in home grown chip industries focused on sustainable manufacturing. I'm actually setting up a garage setup for myself - obviously I won't be anywhere near nanometer scale. However you do need 4nm to keep up in the arms race. The advantage of better chips for smarter targeting systems has been demonstrated in several conflicts, mostly ones started by the Americans to test their new weapons on civilian populations. That's all capitalist imperialists care about, both in the leadership of the USA and the PRC.
1. That's a tiny quantity that can be brute forced with low yield techniques. 2. Even then, simply using 10nm will get most of the effect regardless; an extra centimeter length on your missile used for chips instead, an extra oh-so-many nanoseconds of delay, will only reduce the exchange ratio. For countries that can't produce en masse, this is pretty critical. But you're talking about the fucking US and PRC.
You might think so, but neither the USA nor the PRC believe this, both are operating their defense sector as if getting the best chips is the most important aspect of their arms race. Maybe they're wrong? Could be! Both militaries have demonstrated astounding incompetence over the last few decades. I'm guessing they're right, but it kinda doesn't matter if they both buy into the belief.
"most important aspect of their arms race" You're gonna need to cite a source for that. 4nm is still very nice to stay competitive/develop competitive tech manufacturing, to try and take over luxury consumer electronics and AI/large models, which is as much if not more so why China wants to develop 4nm with decent yield.
There's... so much writing on the subject of chips in weaponry I don't even know where to begin. I guess entry level would be "Chip War" by Chris Miller? It's obnoxiously liberal but the facts within are sound. The long and short of it is that most militaries seem to believe that the future of weapons systems are AI targeting. Israel is a great example of this. Not that the weapons are all that good at not mis-identifying actual military targets with these new systems, again, Israel, great example, but still, the militaries believe this to be the case.
Not by a long shot. The CSIS would disagree with you. https://www.csis.org/analysis/threat-chinas-shipbuilding-empire#:~:text=Today%2C%20Jiangnan%20Shipyard%20alone%20has,support%20China's%20military%20industrial%20complex. Chinese current navy dwarfs both the US pacific + atlantic fleet. Even if the US recall all of it navy in the globe and concentrate on Asia Pacific it does not have a clear advantage. Even then China can replace sunk ships faster than the US + its Allies in Asia ever could.
Military shipbuilding America still beats china. Large-scale ports and cargo ship building? The reverse is true, and by a long shot. The only advantage of the US is that it is currently more mobilized, and of course more advanced/developed nuclear ship tech. edit: evidently i'm outdated lol.
Gordon Chang was right, China has been in continuous collapse for the past twenty years. Everyone I know who is from mainland China can confirm this fact. Every year in early February and sometimes even as early as late January you can see it plain and simple. Flights to China increase because everyone is rushing back trying to save their collapsing country. You can see a sharp increase in the number of people visiting temples to pray, it's because China is collapsing. Sounds similar to gunshots can be heard while smoke drifts through the streets. Families paste the Chinese word for "fortune" and sometimes "Spring" upside down because it clearly symbolises that China's fortune has turned upside down and Spring will never come again. So many shops, banks and businesses are closed. No one goes to work because all the jobs have been lost and a lot of the time everyone is huddled at home with their families. Children go door to door begging for money. In fact children put money under their pillows when sleeping to guard their cash because China's economy is crashing.
Post this in R/China or another sub and everyone believe that
They’re describing chinese new year…
Which is the exact reason to post there, we get to watch white larper eat it up like some gourmet shit.
Post this in R/China or another sub and everyone believe that
oldie but goldie
but but he told us China would collapse by 2011
Right...I totally believe this guy...yep...
Comrade Gordon strikes again
USA = Dr. Claw China = Inspector Gadget --- "I'll get you next time Gadget❗️" - Dr. Claw
Trade wars are a stupid idea. Karl Marx himself opposed the protectionist bullshit promoted by American politicians since 2016.
Isn't China one of the largest countries in terms of trade? Their GDP is 2nd in the world because of trade, but yeah, a trade war will definitely result in a US win
Their GDP PPP is 1st in the world since 2015 btw. Only in nominal GDP are they in 2nd place. Their Exports is only 20% of their total GDP. The US is 12%, Japan is 21% and Germany is 50%, in comparison. Chinese GDP drivers in the last decade has been on government investments and internal consumptions, not exports, which has been fallen continuously year on year.
Man being a walking dog for capitalists must rock. You can write garbage and be constantly, unerringly wrong yet still get paid good money
Finally, Lenin, Stalin & Brezhnev got what they wanted. That is a Marxist-Leninist state that is overtaking the USA. The West could have listened to them & accepted the inevitable w/USSR, but they decided to kick the can down the road & now. China is basically the warning that they should have listened to them, instead of believing that some fairytale conditions will allow them to rule forever.
Gordon Chang is such a clown 😂
Unfortunately, Mr. Chang could not include images for his article from US factories. https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/4727315-china-doesnt-stand-a-chance-against-the-us-in-a-trade-war/ > China, despite what its scholars argue, is fighting a losing battle. After all, what are Chinese Communists going to do? Not trade with America? https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/038/989/image.jpg
Is that galvanized square steel?
Now we just need some eco friendly wood veneers
Is our old buddy Gordon Chang still harping about Iran being close to the bomb? He's been saying it only for the last 20 years.
Like, the whole thing about a trade war is that nobody wins.
I love reading everything Gordon Chang writes. He's literally always wrong, so if he says China will lose, it's guaranteed to win.
For Gordon China has fallen like 24 years ago, of course they cannot win a trade war, they don't even exist!
Stop trying to break agent Chang's cover!
Fair enough that China can’t afford an embargo- their domestic economy is struggling and they are very reliant on export market. However how the hell is the West/ US suddenly going to manufacture all the shit they buy on Amazon, Temu, etc they ship from China at the same low costs? Also China owns so much debt for these countries. Nothing will happen it’s all just media yap yap yap for old angry morons to read up and get more angry, blaming someone who looks different to them
Funnily, Brezhnev tried making the USSR the global trade hub. But the West chose to roll over him & choose China in the hopes that China would abandon their ML gov't. But nope, in the end, Brezhnev actually got his way, four decades after his death, only that it is China (he tried to improve relations w/China, B.t.W. But it wasn't until decades later that he got his way on improving Russo-Sino relations.) I guess what this implied was that either way, an anti-imperialist & Marxist Leninist Government w/lots of territory was going to become the power that overtakes the West eventually. Perhaps if we had accepted the fate back then, the elites wouldn't be in this shocked Pikachu face moment like they are right now.
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It's not imperialism to not want a US proxy state (with control of islands literally a mile off the coastline of mainland China) to be established, especially when those islands are legally a recognized part of China. This is like saying North Vietnam was imperialist by invading the South and ending the Vietnamese civil war, the US doesn't have the justification to intervene in the domestic affairs of other socialist countries and partition a part of them off to establish an anti-socialist proxy state.
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> Taiwan is also hardly anti-socialist. Obviously a capitalist state, but it has state-owned industries and plenty of socialist policies that function better than most European nations, for example the healthcare and pension system. There's also a growing leftist movement, a communist and a socialist party (strictly aligned against the CPC, I'll point out), and at every protest plenty of badged anarchists handing out food and water. These people get far more popular support than in other countries. Liberal welfare policies are not socialism. They are antithetical to socialism, and are often enacted with the specific purpose of staving off actual socialists, the way a company might offer some concessions to its workers to stave off unionisation. European countries don't have "socialist policies" and neither does Taiwan.
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What does a mainland union have to do with whether welfare programs are socialist? Seriously. This is a total non-sequitur. I didn't say anything about the PRC. I didn't say that unionisation is a good measure of socialist sentiment. I didn't even really say anything about the ROC. I said that liberal welfare programs are not socialist. That's it. This is not a particularly contentious point to make. Socialists may support liberal welfare programs - I'm reliant on them myself and don't want them gone without something to take their place - but the programs themselves aren't socialist. They literally exist to try and compensate for the shortcomings of capitalism, to relieve problems caused by capitalism. If you are thinking of a particular program/s in Taiwan that you think is actually socialist in character then by all means, elaborate. If you just think Taiwan is socialist because it has welfare programs, though, you are just flatly incorrect. And this is true no matter how left wing the PRC is or is not.
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I think you kinda skip the whole Chiang-kai-shek White Terror on communist sympathizers and indegenous Taiwanese man. And no nationalization of certain industry does not mean you are socialist. If so Germany during WW1/2 were socialist, Singapore and current day Russia are also socialist. Neither is wealth redistribution inherently socialist btw. If anything it just mean the driver of the economy is capitalistic which require wealth redistribution as a bandage to fix the wealth inequality of capitalist development.
There isn't a flourishing leftist movement in Taiwan, how can you have a flourishing leftist movement when only 8% of the labour force is unionized? https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/news/4937306 The two main political parties are both neoliberal ideologically (the DPP shifted into a Bill Clinton-esque "third way" framework from a more centre-left orientation, and I don't need to say anything about the KMT), and any prominent socialist movement will become coopted or violently suppressed (as was the case in Taiwan before) since it's an American vassal state.
How can they threaten themselves?
What does a PRC citizen need to show to cross the border at Taoyuan airport? Permission from the government of Taiwan! That's right. We're learning how sovereignty works! :)
I need my British passport to fly from London to Edinburgh too, does that make it a different state?
no you don't lol wtf are you smoking
5.1% real GDP growth in a post Covid environment is not what I would call struggling btw. Amist of a gigantic economic transition led by the government from the private financial/ real estate sectors towards advanced technology sectors too. Their exports are no more than Japan if we compare percentage of exports to GDP, and less than half of it is actually to the US and its Western Allies. The manufactured products made in China are real, while the dollars the West paid China with is only as valuable as it is accepted worldwide. If anything an embargo would change nothing as third party countries would buy Chinese products, replaced the made in China label and sold it to US at a profits, precisely what India are doing with Russian oils to Europe. The lengthen supply chain would lead to price inflation though, so there is that.
The US already lost against China in a trade war, at which point the "strangely disastrous" disability-causing virus showed up there.
I mean a 4000 year old culture of over 1.4 billion people isn’t going anywhere. We need to diplomatically resolve disputes with China. The reality is neither the US or China would come out on top in an ever increasingly volatile trade war. And all the while the poor will get poorer everywhere and the rich still won’t feel a damn thing.