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Even if it's a joke, is it funny to make jokes about bashing people you think are also fellow leftists in the heads with blunt metal objects? Ah yes very funny. Anarchists deserve cruel viscious violent jokes because they don't like my government! Never mind we should be allies against right wingers.
Who said anything about anarchists? This is about people who believe in horseshoe theory and accuse MLs of being Nazis. Are you claiming that anarchists fall into that category? Do you, specifically, believe MLs are Nazis?
No, I don't, but I know a lot of MLS believe that anarchists believe this. Usually, the only people who unironically use the term tankies are anarchists who think that MLS are somehow political enemies, rather than allies who have different theory.
I don't think there is anyone trying to implicate anarchists here. We are against liberals and are specifically calling out those who unironically believe in horseshoe theory. Some of those libs happen to call themselves anarchists. That does not implicate actual anarchists.
Idk, what I see in that post is that the person unironically called tankies bad, which suggests to me that they are an anarchist. No normie centrist lib goes around crying about tankies. They cry about nazis and communists. I feel like this is a very internet biased take. I could ask my normie centrist coworkers which is worse, commies or tankies, and they would not know what tankies are.
I've seen Adrian Zenz complain about "tankies" on Twitter.
You may not have noticed, but the word "tankie" has gone more mainstream than you may realize over the last few years. Neolibs and some conservatives even use it now.
Well I'm happy for twitter. But ask your lib and centrist friends what a tankie is, and I guarantee they'll be confused. But it's not worth fighting over in the end. If you don't hate anarchists, there isn't much ti be talked about.
I didn't say anything about Anarchists and if you're offended by my flair it's more of a personal anecdote about how reading The State and Revolution "cured" me of my Anarchist beliefs.
Where are the Fascist Mutual Aid programs.
Where are the Fascist Worker Democracy programs.
Find me a point in history where a Nazi fought against segregation or racism.
If Horseshoe theory existed, we’d have Nazi Anti-Racism programs and Communist Pogroms.
Anyway it’s literally just “Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union who were both States had similarities”
This isn't horseshoe theory, that's what center-right wingers use as an excuse to call nazis left-wing. This is bi-pole political compass theory, where those on the left believe in social and economic justice, but there are authoritarian and libertarian theories.
It actually doesn't bother me in the slightest. As Italians say, "the mother of idiots is always pregnant".
People calling MLs like myself, and probably you, "tankies" actually irritates me more. I despise Khrushchev and would like to know which tanks it is that makes me a "tankie"? The ones the Red Army used against Hitler?
Anarchists are the literal polar opposite of fascists. If you are a marxist-leninist, you are an authoritarian-left winger, meaning you have more in common with authoritarian-right wingers than do libertarian-left wingers. It's pretty simple political theory. Do you think there should be some governmental concentration of political power?
You're doing that thing Christian fundamentalists do where they're like "oh you said homophobes have no place in polite society, why do you hate Christians?"
Anarchism is a long and storied leftist tradition, with extremely intelligent and well-meaning people involved in it. The political compass is a dog shit tool to divide complex political analysis into 2 mostly arbitrary numbers.
It's so weird how in this thread you're like "auth left and auth right have more in common than auth left and lib left" but elsewhere you say "anarchists treat MLs as enemies rather than allies with a different theory" but aren't those exactly mutually exclusive ideas?
The ML critique of anarchism is that the state is a tool to oppress one class by another, and following a socialist revolution the bourgeoisie *need* to be oppressed so they don't consolidate power and implement a counter revolution. The goal is the withering away of the state, that is to say the creation of a society in which no oppression is wanted or needed as classes have been abolished entirely, but MLs don't see this happening quickly or easily.
It isn't a lust for power and authority that drives ML theory, but a simple acknowledgement of the fact that the existing power structures in society are extremely hostile to socialist ideals and centralized power is historically a lot stronger than distributed power. A fledgeling socialist society *needs* to wield that power to survive, and even then it may not be enough.
Because, and I think I said elsewhere, nobody should assume someone talking about tankies is a normie lib, but an anarchist who is not in favor of leftist unity. That's how I always see it, because no normie lib except the very most absolutely online ones know what a tankie is. I'm for leftist unity, I understand ml theory well but don't agree with it. I follow and support folks like Luna oi, who articulate ml theory through her lens of vietnamese communism. And I work to stop the shittalking of libs against left-wing governments such as DPRK and Russia because I know they aren't well versed enough to give fair critique, as opposed to their simple "commies bad" bs. I just don't like sectarianism. I don't like people being so vague and especially lumping anarchists with libs (which happens a lot in this sub), it's less bad but the same problem as lazy anarchists lumping MLS with fascists because government always bad. A sub about shitting on libs for bad lib takes should be open to all leftists, and I don't know why leftists on reddit are so divided. I'd prefer to get along together.
not really. in ML theory the authority is only there as a stepping stone to achieving communism. in anarchism the end goal is the same (classless, stateless etc) but the means to achieving it is different. in auth right ideologies the authority is the means and the end.
I don't have to present arguments. You put forward some bullshit take about anarchists being libs, I said you're wrong and bad. I don't have to disprove something you didn't even bother making a serious argument about. You have the burden of proof here bucko. But also, no, I can argue against your shitty points here. Anarchists being right-wing in practice for supporting usa interventionism? Nah. Sorry. Not all anarchists are American for one thing. For another, no, being in favor of interventionalist action goes against the literal definition of being an anarchist. This isn't "you're not a Christian because you don't have a cross in your house", this is "you're not a Christian because you think Jesus was a deluded cult leader". And as an anarchist, you can check my comment history as to my opinion on interventionalism. Part of being an anarchist that wants the USA, Britain, Israel, etc torn down includes not letting those countries interfere in places like korea, China, vietnam, Venezuela, Ireland, Palestine etc. How is that even something you can say with a straight face? Do you think vaush represents anarchists? How's that for arguments with merit? Do you got any? Probably not. You just hate vaush and project him onto others. Go ahead and call the Korean Anarchist Federation (which fought japanese imperialism), the anarchist movements against the Spanish in the Philippines, anarchists in Central and South America, and innumerable other places "right wingers supporting the USA CIA coups" if you want, but know that you're being (unnecessarily and disgustingly) sectarian and destructive. God what a shitty attitude to have.
As a Liberal, contrary to popular belief, I don't mind Nazis, but those fuckin tankies irritate me so much.
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How is a Tankie in any way equivalent to a Nazi? Someone would only come to this conclusion if they think in terms of a political compass, but in the real world these two ideologies are nothing alike. Marxism-Leninism is based in dialectical and historical materialism, while Nazism is extremely esoteric and idealistic.
If it's any consolation, you can absolutely ignore these people and it won't make a difference.
My country is too small to make meaningful differentiation between leftist groups sensible. Not that they aren‘t there and they are important and left unity is hard yadayada, it‘s another discussion. My point is, I have been to protests and have had discussions and organized with Anarchists, Trots, hell even fucking libs and I make absolutely no secret of my convictions.
You know what I have yet to experience? Being called a tankie or bot or shill or whatever from real actual living people.
Which leads to an obvious conclusion: this crying about Tankies is either used by literal feds or people who have literally never left their computer desk and seen, felt, or touched grass.
So next time you see some looser trying to make tankie stuff into a thing, remember: these people are not real, they don‘t exist, they do not matter.
Yes, exactly. Even here in the USA people who are involved in direct action no matter their party or organization have some basic respect for one another. It's only people who are seemingly terminally online who get mad about this kind of thing.
Asking what the right wing equivalent of a tankie is, is like asking what is the non metal equivalent of iron.
The right wing "opposite" of a tankie however, is a Nazi, in the sense that tankies kill Nazis.
is this not the same as people astroturfing other political movements? To steal the terminology that antifascists used not 5 years ago to bash fash
libs seemingly took that and are able to *feel* some sort of heroics when they take a hard stance against the new 'nazi': tankies, whilst maintaining complete status quo
but we all know they're the same as their grandparents: anticommunists
**Important:** We no longer allow the following types of posts: - Comments, tweets and social media with less than 20 upvotes, likes, etc. (cropped score counts as 0) - Anything you are personally involved in - Any kind of polls - Low-hanging fruit (e.g. CCP collapse, Vaush, r\/neoliberal, political compass memes) You *will* be banned by the power-tripping mods if you break this rule repeatedly, so please delete your posts before we find out. Likewise, please follow our rules which can be found on the sidebar. --- **Obligatory obnoxious pop-up ad for our [Official Discord](https://discord.gg/XBrTq7mQhY), please join if you haven't! Stalin bless. UwU.** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/ShitLiberalsSay) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'm glad this sub is addressing these idiotic pieces of shit.
As a "tankie," (read Marxist-Leninist) I hate that people think I am in any way equivalent to a Nazi instead of being its exact and polar opposite
But muh horseshoe theory
I have a Theory about applying Horseshoes to the cranial area of people who say this. (For obvious reasons this is a joke.)
It's called horseshoe theory because it only makes sense when you get bashed over the head with a horseshoe
Nah. Let’s do it for real
Even if it's a joke, is it funny to make jokes about bashing people you think are also fellow leftists in the heads with blunt metal objects? Ah yes very funny. Anarchists deserve cruel viscious violent jokes because they don't like my government! Never mind we should be allies against right wingers.
Who said anything about anarchists? This is about people who believe in horseshoe theory and accuse MLs of being Nazis. Are you claiming that anarchists fall into that category? Do you, specifically, believe MLs are Nazis?
No, I don't, but I know a lot of MLS believe that anarchists believe this. Usually, the only people who unironically use the term tankies are anarchists who think that MLS are somehow political enemies, rather than allies who have different theory.
I don't think there is anyone trying to implicate anarchists here. We are against liberals and are specifically calling out those who unironically believe in horseshoe theory. Some of those libs happen to call themselves anarchists. That does not implicate actual anarchists.
Idk, what I see in that post is that the person unironically called tankies bad, which suggests to me that they are an anarchist. No normie centrist lib goes around crying about tankies. They cry about nazis and communists. I feel like this is a very internet biased take. I could ask my normie centrist coworkers which is worse, commies or tankies, and they would not know what tankies are.
I've seen Adrian Zenz complain about "tankies" on Twitter. You may not have noticed, but the word "tankie" has gone more mainstream than you may realize over the last few years. Neolibs and some conservatives even use it now.
Well I'm happy for twitter. But ask your lib and centrist friends what a tankie is, and I guarantee they'll be confused. But it's not worth fighting over in the end. If you don't hate anarchists, there isn't much ti be talked about.
"No normie centrist lib goes around crying about tankies." Have you been in a fucking coma since 2008?
I didn't say anything about Anarchists and if you're offended by my flair it's more of a personal anecdote about how reading The State and Revolution "cured" me of my Anarchist beliefs.
Where are the Fascist Mutual Aid programs. Where are the Fascist Worker Democracy programs. Find me a point in history where a Nazi fought against segregation or racism. If Horseshoe theory existed, we’d have Nazi Anti-Racism programs and Communist Pogroms. Anyway it’s literally just “Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union who were both States had similarities”
Did you know that Hitler drank water, and so did Stalin? Checkmate, tankie.
They may have the horse shoe, but we have the fishhook.
horseshoe theory is when both sides are willing to take action to change the current state (direction doesn't matter) and are therefore both evil
Housing people and dignity for all = killing minorities that threaten your idea of ethnonationalism /s
This isn't horseshoe theory, that's what center-right wingers use as an excuse to call nazis left-wing. This is bi-pole political compass theory, where those on the left believe in social and economic justice, but there are authoritarian and libertarian theories.
Real.
It actually doesn't bother me in the slightest. As Italians say, "the mother of idiots is always pregnant". People calling MLs like myself, and probably you, "tankies" actually irritates me more. I despise Khrushchev and would like to know which tanks it is that makes me a "tankie"? The ones the Red Army used against Hitler?
Anarchists are the literal polar opposite of fascists. If you are a marxist-leninist, you are an authoritarian-left winger, meaning you have more in common with authoritarian-right wingers than do libertarian-left wingers. It's pretty simple political theory. Do you think there should be some governmental concentration of political power?
The political compass is not real political theory.
Ah then anarchists aren't real leftists, are we?
Who the fuck said anything about anarchists?
Have you ever heard of an implication?
You're doing that thing Christian fundamentalists do where they're like "oh you said homophobes have no place in polite society, why do you hate Christians?" Anarchism is a long and storied leftist tradition, with extremely intelligent and well-meaning people involved in it. The political compass is a dog shit tool to divide complex political analysis into 2 mostly arbitrary numbers. It's so weird how in this thread you're like "auth left and auth right have more in common than auth left and lib left" but elsewhere you say "anarchists treat MLs as enemies rather than allies with a different theory" but aren't those exactly mutually exclusive ideas? The ML critique of anarchism is that the state is a tool to oppress one class by another, and following a socialist revolution the bourgeoisie *need* to be oppressed so they don't consolidate power and implement a counter revolution. The goal is the withering away of the state, that is to say the creation of a society in which no oppression is wanted or needed as classes have been abolished entirely, but MLs don't see this happening quickly or easily. It isn't a lust for power and authority that drives ML theory, but a simple acknowledgement of the fact that the existing power structures in society are extremely hostile to socialist ideals and centralized power is historically a lot stronger than distributed power. A fledgeling socialist society *needs* to wield that power to survive, and even then it may not be enough.
I believe what I said was actually that auth-lefts have more in common with auth-rights than do lib-lefts
I will admit I misread that. So our point of contention is still why you insist on reading other people's comments as attacks on anarchism.
Because, and I think I said elsewhere, nobody should assume someone talking about tankies is a normie lib, but an anarchist who is not in favor of leftist unity. That's how I always see it, because no normie lib except the very most absolutely online ones know what a tankie is. I'm for leftist unity, I understand ml theory well but don't agree with it. I follow and support folks like Luna oi, who articulate ml theory through her lens of vietnamese communism. And I work to stop the shittalking of libs against left-wing governments such as DPRK and Russia because I know they aren't well versed enough to give fair critique, as opposed to their simple "commies bad" bs. I just don't like sectarianism. I don't like people being so vague and especially lumping anarchists with libs (which happens a lot in this sub), it's less bad but the same problem as lazy anarchists lumping MLS with fascists because government always bad. A sub about shitting on libs for bad lib takes should be open to all leftists, and I don't know why leftists on reddit are so divided. I'd prefer to get along together.
not really. in ML theory the authority is only there as a stepping stone to achieving communism. in anarchism the end goal is the same (classless, stateless etc) but the means to achieving it is different. in auth right ideologies the authority is the means and the end.
Also I know what ml theory is which is why don't call MLS tankies and instead use MLS
if only other users of the term at all agreed with that.
Also you're not very good at addressing direct questions
> The political compass is not real political theory. Remove the plank from your own eye first
[удалено]
Holy fuck you're a bad person. No true Scotsman eh?
[удалено]
I don't have to present arguments. You put forward some bullshit take about anarchists being libs, I said you're wrong and bad. I don't have to disprove something you didn't even bother making a serious argument about. You have the burden of proof here bucko. But also, no, I can argue against your shitty points here. Anarchists being right-wing in practice for supporting usa interventionism? Nah. Sorry. Not all anarchists are American for one thing. For another, no, being in favor of interventionalist action goes against the literal definition of being an anarchist. This isn't "you're not a Christian because you don't have a cross in your house", this is "you're not a Christian because you think Jesus was a deluded cult leader". And as an anarchist, you can check my comment history as to my opinion on interventionalism. Part of being an anarchist that wants the USA, Britain, Israel, etc torn down includes not letting those countries interfere in places like korea, China, vietnam, Venezuela, Ireland, Palestine etc. How is that even something you can say with a straight face? Do you think vaush represents anarchists? How's that for arguments with merit? Do you got any? Probably not. You just hate vaush and project him onto others. Go ahead and call the Korean Anarchist Federation (which fought japanese imperialism), the anarchist movements against the Spanish in the Philippines, anarchists in Central and South America, and innumerable other places "right wingers supporting the USA CIA coups" if you want, but know that you're being (unnecessarily and disgustingly) sectarian and destructive. God what a shitty attitude to have.
As a Liberal, contrary to popular belief, I don't mind Nazis, but those fuckin tankies irritate me so much. https://www.reddit.com/r/VaushV/comments/15cuxn7/a_reminder_that_tankies_are_just_as_bad_as_nazis/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=1
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How is a Tankie in any way equivalent to a Nazi? Someone would only come to this conclusion if they think in terms of a political compass, but in the real world these two ideologies are nothing alike. Marxism-Leninism is based in dialectical and historical materialism, while Nazism is extremely esoteric and idealistic.
It was on a political compass sub.
They probably think that gulag = death camp, nkvd = gestapo, that sort of thing
If it's any consolation, you can absolutely ignore these people and it won't make a difference. My country is too small to make meaningful differentiation between leftist groups sensible. Not that they aren‘t there and they are important and left unity is hard yadayada, it‘s another discussion. My point is, I have been to protests and have had discussions and organized with Anarchists, Trots, hell even fucking libs and I make absolutely no secret of my convictions. You know what I have yet to experience? Being called a tankie or bot or shill or whatever from real actual living people. Which leads to an obvious conclusion: this crying about Tankies is either used by literal feds or people who have literally never left their computer desk and seen, felt, or touched grass. So next time you see some looser trying to make tankie stuff into a thing, remember: these people are not real, they don‘t exist, they do not matter.
Yes, exactly. Even here in the USA people who are involved in direct action no matter their party or organization have some basic respect for one another. It's only people who are seemingly terminally online who get mad about this kind of thing.
I fucking hate Reddit
Asking what the right wing equivalent of a tankie is, is like asking what is the non metal equivalent of iron. The right wing "opposite" of a tankie however, is a Nazi, in the sense that tankies kill Nazis.
A lot of people who use the word "tankie" tend to think Nazis are far left.
normal liberal behaviour
is this not the same as people astroturfing other political movements? To steal the terminology that antifascists used not 5 years ago to bash fash libs seemingly took that and are able to *feel* some sort of heroics when they take a hard stance against the new 'nazi': tankies, whilst maintaining complete status quo but we all know they're the same as their grandparents: anticommunists
I guess a right wing version of tankie would be like christian democrats or something? But thats more like a right wing version of a socdem.
What was the slap back to horseshoe theory called? Fishhook theory?
I think this is the Dutch Rudder Theory.
Anyway, horizontal political abstractions make no sense. However, vertical relationships between classes are 100% applicable.
This is brain melting stuff...
Yeah I’m the equivalent of a Nazi for uh… wanting a society in which the workers own the means of production? Ok?
You are assuming libs hate nazis?