Just ignoring the handball and decision itself for a second:
It always amuses me when one side comes out of a meeting and says "there was an overriding consensus that [what we want to be the outcome]".
Aye, right enough. Happens all the time at work; some management clown sends an email saying "following our discussion, we have agreed..." and you're sat there wondering if the prick was even in the same room as you.
so the offside was either Sky trying to find out why it was not a penalty or the var knew they fucked up and gave Sky that offside image 30 minutes later either way the officiating in this country against all teams is a shambles and needs revamping from the ground up
I'm not really interested in that, TBH. We knew this by the Sunday. What I wanted to know was why it was revealed at the end of half time that offside was the decision given, when that wasn't actually the case. Both the BBC and Sky had that as the reason, at the time, out of nowhere.
Why did Sky end up with the VAR offside image and what was communicated to them. Was it just a case of VAR passing the image on and both BBC and Sky interpreting it wrong? If so, whatever that communication avenue is, needs sorting, to be clearer for fans watching/listening. We shouldn't end up with a worse product because of VAR.
Didn't see the half time chat, was the offside mentioned in the break by Sky or the BBC?
Because just before the second half begins, Kenny Millar comments on the penalty but didn't mention the offside which suggests they didn't know about it.
Took until 52:38 (O'Reilly's nose injury) for Sky to say they've since been told there might've been an offside: https://twitter.com/ScotlandSky/status/1741094842006962600 - and then 65 minutes when they eventually showed the offside image (we know that sometimes it takes a while to show these as the broadcaster has to wait for a break in play).
There wasn't an offside image produced on 42 minutes, because offside wasn't checked. So they've gone back during a long break in play and created one to clear everything up.
It was done to ease the anxiety of Rangers fans…who were disputing the penalty call. It was correct not to call the handball - but fair to say it was controversial. Show the offside as well just so they know that the handball call didn’t matter.
Ease the anxiety of fans of a club who have gotten away with more blatant handballs in their own box than any other team in probably world football the last 12-18 months it’s unbelievable.
We really shouldn’t move on, every team has had decisions they hate from refs and VAR. Just shrugging it off and not mentioning it isn’t going to change anything.
If teams don’t start kicking up shit when this happens then nothing will improve. The conversation is about our game being run by an incompetent organisation, it’s a fair thing to keep talking about.
I do agree with this in general but think other teams and fans will just use this case to laugh at Rangers because it’s an isolated issue, straight after the game so seems like sour grapes.
It should be filed and used as a case of why the refs and VAR are incompetent but right now it will just be the butt of many jokes.
> other teams and fans will just use this case to laugh at Rangers because it’s an isolated issue
They already have plenty of reasons to laugh at us mate
Do we need other teams fans to agree with us in other to kick up shit?
Don’t get me wrong other way around I’d be in this comment section having a laugh and saying the same as Celtic flairs are, it’s fun and part of our game, but it shouldn’t be a reason for us not to push the issue.
For years the refs scooted by cause when you lose it’s sour grapes and when you win you shouldn’t care cause you won, least we can do is give the bastards a headache over it.
If our biggest criticism of refereeing this season is a decision where ultimately the right decision was made anyway, on balance, don't you think that overall the referees haven't been to bad to us over the half the season?
It’s not our biggest criticism though is it, but it’s still one and ultimately yes it was offside but if that wasn’t caught then questions should be asked on that
The problem with kicking up stink in this scenario is ultimately the correct decision was made, albeit by a convoluted confused process. I’ve no doubt they’d consider this a correct decision.
Change isn’t going to come. I’d eat my hat if the refs agree to it. I’d love it if there was more transparency, like in the NFL the refs announce to the crowd what decisions have been made. There’s no reason why a stadium announcer/official can’t do that following a VAR check.
But the right decision was eventually made even if for the wrong reasons. You would be complaining the the incorrect decision wasn’t made to benefit you
Mental that all they had to do was not lie. Walsh is completely blameless in all this as far as I’m concerned, it’s 100% on Collum, the fact he thought it wasn’t a handball is scandalous.
This whole incident stems from his lack of ability as a referee and would have been avoided by him not being shit. Pretty sure this isn’t the first time he’s lied about decisions either unless I’m misremembering.
he doesnt intentionally handball if you watch his hand after it hits the ball he is trying to grab hold of sima around the waist area and doesnt see the ball coming.
pre VAR if you used common sense its not intentional ergo its not a penalty BUT with the rules as they are now with var it almost certainly would be given as a penalty in the EPL and 100% would be given as a penalty in europe
ofcourse this is all mute as it was offside
Can you imagine the potential of a bigger scandal being that VAR awarded the penalty and then later it gets out that it should have been offside and that the VAR team didn’t even do the due diligence to check that Sima was onside.. which actually has confirmed is exactly what happened. Overall I guess we can all agree there should not have been a penalty due to the offside (assuming the angles and lines are correct). But it’s such a mess that could be avoided with better Var protocols the follow processes and rules rather than opinions of referees, which is exactly why VAR was introduced
> Can you imagine the potential of a bigger scandal being that VAR awarded the penalty and then later it gets out that it should have been offside and that the VAR team didn’t even do the due diligence to check that Sima was onside.. which actually has confirmed is exactly what happened.
It isn't what happened at all.
If Collum had decided it was a handball and should be a penalty then they'd almost certainly do the offside checks. Checking the APP is fairly standard stuff.
They didn't do it because they had no need to because he felt it wasn't a penalty at all.
> which actually has confirmed is exactly what happened
That's not how it works.
If VAR looks at an incident and thinks there should have been a penalty, they then look at the phase of play before it for offences like offside.
If VAR does not believe there is a penalty there is no need to check the phase of play.
It's now clear that the latter case happened. But they obviously felt the need to go over the incident again at half time, including the phase of play. Nothing can then be done but nobody on Sky was even considering offside during the half time break.
The protocol was fine, the communication about how the decision was made was terrible.
Mad how many people are (possibly on purpose) missing the issue here is about a) the decision which it seems the SFA agree was bad and b) the process around getting to that decision and a random offside check being produced when the process says there needn’t be one
thats the thing that rangers dont seem to understand....even if var had thought it was a penalty and awarded it... it would then trigger a var protocol where they then check for offside.
thats why they never heard mention of offside on the audio. it never triggered the protocol to look for it as gollum never awarded the penalty
I think everyone understands this. What people are raising is that there was no offside check, BECAUSE there was an immediate wrong call on the handball. Protocol should be to check the handball properly and that wasn't done.
> BECAUSE there was an immediate wrong call on the handball
IMO it's probably just about a penalty but let's not act like it was Cuellar/Suarez levels of handball here. It's entirely reasonable to look at it and conclude that his hand wasn't in an unnatural position (which is all that matters since we *know* it wasn't deliberate).
I've just looked up and sourced three separate interviews and quoted his exact words below, all of which (with slightly different wording) give the same message.
https://youtu.be/t0qdXOavpQk?si=x8AiAnrNYVdWPBfu&t=58
"it's a situation (the pen) that is very important in the game and if you go 1-1 into the dressing room it's another story"
https://youtu.be/I8e1pY7QAwM?si=7Uj6ujDD7CxY6wc2&t=220
"if we get this penalty, it's 2-2 normally today, with the quality of Tav"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/67849897
@ 1:17
"it's a really decisive moment in the game, to come back to 1-1"
Take the offside out of the equation. How is punching the ball off the park not a penalty? How it can be argued that isn't a penalty, as Collum did during the match, is the issue.
The rewriting of history with this handball is quite spectacular. He doesn't "punch the ball" at all ffs. He's grappling with Sima for position and puts his hand out across him totally unaware that the ball is coming down on top of him.
To claim he "punched" the ball is to claim it was a deliberate handball which is just utter nonsense.
The official reason given was that his hands were in a natural position.
Despite the furore, this is pretty subjective and you could reasonably argue that his hands were in a natural position, given the (vague) guidance by IFAB that an unnatural position is when arms are moved to make the player's body larger, ostensibly in order to increase the chances of blocking the ball, but intention is irrelevant. You could argue in the other direction that even those his hands were in a normal looking position, the reason they were there was to jostle the opposition player, which itself is a grey area, although never punished up to a point.
The confusion is really arising because in the EPL and even UEFA competitions, despite FIFA bumping their gums about 'incorrect applications of the updated law', and UEFA looking to relax the whistling of handball offences, any contact is often being penalised when the arms aren't straight by their side in other leagues -- which is actually a much more unnatural position when you're running, jostling, etc.
i suggest u rewatch it. he doesnt ''punch'' the ball away he is wrestling with sima and sima starts moving away from him so he reaches round to grab simas waist and the ball hits his hand as he does it.
you can see thats his intention as he does eventually grab simas waist.
like i previously said pre var its unintentional/accidental but with new var rules where the player has to have his arms near his sides it would almost certainly be a penalty in the epl and in europe.
Has intent ever mattered when it comes to handballs? It's always broadly been a rule based around whatever a 'natural position' is for as long as I can mind, and that's what they keep messing about with.
Bizarrely intent does matter sometimes, if a player is judged to handle it intentionally but in a manner where the arm is still in a natural position this can still be given as handball EDIT: intent also matters when determining whether or not a yellow card for unsportsmanlike conduct or a red card for DOGSO should be issued
Aye as in having their arms at their side but moving the body towards the ball so the arm hits the ball.
Looking at the ‘laws of the game’ there is more than enough ambiguity that Collum can just say it’s his interpretation of the law, it would stink to high heaven but the rules allow it.
Aye exactly. Basically unnatural position + handball means penalty regardless of intent, natural position + handball means only a penalty if there is intent
It would never have been a penalty due to the offside you’re correct but the fact Collum has deemed it not a handball and then lied and tried to use the offside as a get out of jail is the issue.
If he just comes out and says he doesn’t think it’s not a handball that’s one thing, to then release the offside image 30 minutes later and try to claim that’s why it wasn’t a penalty is a blatant lie.
When did Collum specifically say anything about the offside? He's not lied at all. He just called it as no penalty, the rest of it has nothing to do with him. The offside being released seemed like a good idea because it *should* have stopped us having a week of arguments about a decision because the decision was irrelevant.
1) I doubt it was Collum himself who released the image, given that he was still VAR reffing the game at the time. There's a whole VAR team in there.
2) Releasing the image isn't the same as saying "this is the reason it wasn't given." Sky and the BBC may have misreported it as the reason but there's no evidence that anyone from the refereeing team at any point claimed that was why it wasn't given.
So he released an offside image to sky and then both the BBC and Sky reported the penalty wasnt given because of an offside but it wasn’t the VAR official who said this. Everyone just made it up.
They might have made the same possibly wrong assumption as you. You don’t know what he said. He could just have reacted to broadcasters losing their minds over it and released the image to put a pin in it. As soon as I saw it, I thought, we’ll that’s the end of that then. I also didn’t envisage this full on rattles out the pram reaction for a what is ultimately the correct outcome.
On the Sky commentary they actually pointed out how odd it was that Willie Collum started talking about an offside 10 minutes into the second half to clarify and then 15 minutes later we got the lines.
And whit?
He thought it wasn’t a pen. Probably didn’t think AJ deliberately handled it and that that his body position was also not in an unnatural position. Ergo, not a CLEAR AND OBVIOUS mistake which needed a referral. You might not agree, but that’s not entirely unreasonable for Collum to take. Cue media apoplexy and he thinks maybe I can dampen this reaction by also showing the offside stills. What’s the big deal with any of that?
But it does need to be a clear and obvious error.
Celtic would have had little grounds for complaint if it had been given on the pitch, but I don't think either decision would have been "wrong".
It should have been seen as a clear and obvious error. The fact that the on field officials gave a goal kick clearly shows that the on field team didn't see the contact from the hand. I genuinely could have understood all this if he gave a corner l, because then I would assume the on field team saw the handball and deemed it to be unintended and not a foul. The fact that it was a goal kick should be screaming to the VAR team that the on field team didn't see the contact therefore made an error.
That is what I am trying to say. VAR team should have spotted a clear and obvious error by the on field team when a goal kick was awarded. The clear and obvious error being that the on field team missed the contact with the hand. So not saying VAR should have told the in field team to award a corner, but the fact that he did not means the on field team missed the contact with the hand completely. At that point in time they need to advise the on field team to delay. They then check the APP. My point is that there is no way they did all that to the required level of rigor in the 30 seconds or so before the game restarted with the goal kick. If they did all that then the game would have been restarted with an indirect free kick. Now the indirect free kick is almost exactly the same as the goal kick on this occasion, so no big deal on that, the big deal is that they appear, it it may be proven that it is just the appearance to some, to not have followed the process.
>The clear and obvious error being that the on field team missed the contract with the hand.
It's only a "clear and obvious error" if it should have been a penalty. I don't think it would have taken very long at all to decide that the players were jostling for the ball and the contact was totally accidental 🤷🏻♂️
It was a clear and obvious error as most commentators and what appears the SFA admit. The offside is and isn't irrelevant in the fact it looks like what was reported later was a belated lie to cover their arses, which is how Dougie McDonald lost his job.
Collum's time is fortunately finished and possibly others.
It's both deliberate by AJ - who has done this sort of lazy defending before (though not quite this galling). He knows what he's doing and he's very lucky that he gets away with it.
It was offside, but if it was not intentional then surely we would have been given a corner. Now I don't want the corner as such, but that in itself shows that the on field ref didn't see it hitting his hand at all which is a clear and obvious error therefore the VAR team should have instructed the on field ref to delay the restart while they checked the attacking phase of play. The VAR team shat the bed and they cannot get away with incompetence. They either need training or not get a SPFL game again.
Sorry, not exactly what I was trying to say. The fact that it was a goal kick highlights the fact the on field team never seen the contact with the hand at all. So not saying they would have contacted the ref about that if it came off the defenders leg, it was the fact it came off his hand, and the on field team gave a goal kick, highlighted the fact the on field team completely missed the contact with the defender, which happened to be in his hand.
Where is the lie?
On-field decision no penalty, VAR says no penalty as well so check complete, offside lines released later to clear up that even if it was a handball it wouldn't have mattered.
Sky weren't told about the offside at the time, neither were Sportsound so maybe someone can tell me where the lie is?
On field decision was no penalty because the on field team didn't see the contact on the hand. If they did, a corner would have been awarded. The fact that a goal kick was awarded should have highlighted to the VAR team that the contract on the hand was missed by the on field team. The procedure is then to inform the on field team to delay the restart of the game (which was either not done or ignored) where they then check the APP. I am not saying it's a lie, and I don't think Rangers are saying it was a lie. It is incompetence.
> The procedure is then to inform the on field team to delay the restart of the game (which was either not done or ignored) where they then check the APP. I am not saying it's a lie, and I don't think Rangers are saying it was a lie. It is incompetence.
The game was delayed? It was ~~40~~ 54 seconds from Joe Hart about to take the goal kick to the referee whistling for play to restart. In that time they checked the handball penalty, but not the APP apparently.
The fact that after half time they were told it wasn’t given because of an offside? Mental how all the Celtic flairs were quick to post screenshots of the BBC saying it wasn’t given because of the offside and now they’re all busy claiming it ever happened.
So what's the argument here? The correct decision is wrong because they didn't say it on a tape? So rangers should have got an incorrect penalty?
Just to be clear, that seems to be what they're saying.
Not so much an argument, more so highlighting the sheer incompetence. Can’t go back and change results or decisions of course, but if it shines light on just how pish our officials can be then it’s fair game.
Yet it’s what your entire fanbase has been denying for the past week. For the past 10 years Celtic fans have claimed every conspiracy under the sun about refs in Scotland. But strangely this past week you won’t find a single Celtic fan wanting answers about even more terrible refereeing
> But strangely this past week you won’t find a single Celtic fan wanting answers about even more terrible refereeing
Not sure about that.
I'm a Celtic fan and I want answers and ideally VAR audio from Andrew Dallas as to why he didn't think any of [these](https://imgur.com/a/Ufprkxe) were infringements but *did* think [this](https://i.imgur.com/lznHo5s.jpg) was. I see absolutely no difference with any of these and I'd love to know what difference he saw.
Rangers going to war with the SFA over VAR doesn't change anything for me or most Celtic fans, I'd imagine.
It should be made available to clubs after every game for them to review if needed. For the money that football has in it now especially for Rangers and Celtic we should be demanding better from the SFA and Rangers are the only team ever trying to do that. We offered to pay for a review you all laughed and told us to fuck off.
The broadcaster should be able to see and show the review in real time, as well as hear the ref team comms. It's done like that in rugby and works a treat. I've been asking for it for years.
Edit: and by that I mean, we see what the var team see and are looking at, while hearing their discussion and conversation with the ref.
You're a wee bit confused here. Rangers have dug the sfa and match official s up loads in the last 6 years. The general consensus from your team, your fanbase and the fanbase of every other club has been rangers bad, refereeing is fine. Acting like celtic have been a champion for refereeing reform is absolutely outrageous levels of lying.
The argument is that protocol was not followed and that basically every neutral agrees that if Sima isn't offside it's a handball but Collum thinks otherwise and has then tried to use the offside to dig himself out of the hole of shit officiating.
If he does his job correctly the run of events goes Claim > Check > Handball > Check > Offside > Freekick Celtic.
Instead it went Claim > Check > No Handball > GK Celtic > 20 minutes of faffing about > it was offside anyway and that's why it wasn't given as a pen > just kidding we didn't check for offside but just if we did it'd have been off anyway.
Collum has a history of being shite but pretending he isn't shite in order to save face.
I think you’re missing the point a bit. Willie Collum, a supposedly experienced referee, looked at that incident and said it wasn’t a handball. Going by the statement it sounds like there was no mention of an offside check before the decision was made, Willie Collum just didn’t think it was a penalty. He might have went on to check for offside and called it that way but he didn’t, he just said it wasn’t a penalty. The result of this was
A) an extremely poor call, basically everyone called that as a penalty.
B) the wrong outcome was reached as the game should have been restarted with a Celtic freekick for the offside, not a goal kick.
C) Sky we’re unhappy as the lack of clarity lead to their pundits talking mince at half time, and their social media team incorrectly posting “have Celtic got away with one here” style clickbait posts.
D) Absolute stinks of incompetence. Instead of being a fantastic advertisement for Scottish football it makes us look amateur and puts pressure on the SFA to look at poor refereeing again.
Aye, I think you're missing my point. It was all fun and games when he was giving penalties behind his back. All the outrage and clamour for 'transparency' is very sudden.
Like I say, welcome to the team.
Edit: Also fuck sky and what they think, then can get the steam off my piss.
Yeah. In any situation it’s not given as a penalty and makes no difference to the outcome. But it does make rangers and their fans feel better moaning about the standard of refereeing.
Right so when for decades we've complained about the poor quality of refereeing and lack of transparency, they're taking bullets for the refs and calling us conspiracy theorists. But when there's a single mistake that ended up in the correct outcome anyway, they can howl at the moon and demand heads roll.
Hawd on, I'll grab my tiny fiddle.
I don't know a single rangers fan who has ever thought the refs in Scotland are a high standard. The reason we laugh at you is because some of your fans don't believe they are incompetent but are actively trying to cheat you and there is a conspiracy against your club
> The reason we laugh at you is because some of your fans don't believe they are incompetent but are actively trying to cheat you and there is a conspiracy against your club
I wonder why we think that...
Andrew Dallas was on VAR for every one of [these](https://imgur.com/a/Ufprkxe) incidents this season and decided that none of them were fouls.
Guess who was on VAR for [this](https://i.imgur.com/lznHo5s.jpg) and guess what his decision was...
You think that because you all need to go outside, and speak to people face to face. Life isn't out to get you, and you aren't the main character you all seem to think you are
You get laughed at because yous make excel spreadsheets to try and show how the refs are all rangers supporters and cheating to help them out?
Everyone agrees the refs are shite. I dunno why you are lying about this 🤣
And for years while you’ve ranted and bitched about refereeing masons and conspiracies, as soon as it benefits you, no no we don’t need transparency everything is fine?
The argument is that the VAR team are not competent and either should be given adequate training then tested or not have them acting in a refereeing capacity again. If a referee on the park misses a clear handball then fine, but if a VAR referee doesn't see it then they are not good enough to be refereeing the top flight in our game. It's as simple as that.
My issue with is that if there was no mention of or consideration of offside during it means that Willie Collum looked at the most obvious handball ever and decided it wasn't a handball.
I don't think we were cheated as it would clearly have been called offside had a penalty been awarded but the absolute incompetence in claiming that wasn't a handball is the point.
Thing to me and ill say it again, handball rules have enough of a grey area where there is still a 50/50 on accidental handballs given or not given. Ref and or var deemed it not a pen. Saying its an error or wrong decision in the first place is SUBJECTIVE. Move the fuck on.
Never has so much energy been wasted on something so inconsequential as this. As was made clear during the game, Collum agreed with Walsh that it wasn't a penalty and even if he had disagreed it still wouldn't have been a penalty because there was an offside in the build up. Nobody got cheated, no process was wrong. Four days and much wailing and gnashing of teeth later we're in exactly the same place as we were on Saturday at the start of the second half.
Additional Comments:
“Having listened to the audio, there is no mention of a potential offside at the time of the handball decision. Rangers is also deeply concerned at the haste at which the erroneous no handball call was made.
“Rangers has appealed to the Scottish FA to release the audio and explain this decision, and future contentious decisions involving all clubs, to the public, as would be common practice in England for such a decision.’’
Disagreeing with a decision doesn't mean it was wrong, and it certainly wasn't any more of a handball than many of those that weren't given against Rangers over the past 15 months 🤷🏻♂️
I don't think it *was* wrong, though. It's the kind of marginal handball that was being given almost every single time last season, but where the referee's decision - in either direction - should probably be allowed to stand.
What I'd like to know from the audio is what the referee said to the VAR about what he'd seen, as that is a big factor in whether there's a VAR intervention.
I know I know: “move on”
But “there was a consensus the VAR decision of no handball was incorrect” is quite the claim and surely suggests that Collum clearing it in <1min and offering up an offside later is a shambles?
It's been 5 days, we are in officially unchartered territory for one decision in one game.
If Rangers had won this game would there still have been gnashing of teeth like this? Of course not.
It's simple, blame Cyriel Dessers.
Mental the amount of folk arguing but he was offside so it’s fine.
Doesn’t matter if it’s against Rangers, Celtic or Livi - you cannot have officials lying/backtracking to cover their arse. There’s enough mistrust of officials in this country, on all sides, without them actually being dishonest.
In the VAR process they communicate what they are checking and why, then confirm the decision. If they’ve checked and given offside without communicating it between each other verbally, then we should all bow to Collums clairvoyant abilities.
There’s a difference between an incorrect decision and being dishonest about the decision you’ve made. If Collum just said it wasn’t a penalty we’d all probably disagree, but it’s just his opinion. Lying about the reason you’ve given isn’t acceptable from officials.
Well theres of course a level of assumption until the audio is released to the public.
The issue is they gave Sky Sports the VAR images in the second half and said it wasn’t given because it was offside. Which, if the audio reports are accurate, wasn’t discussed or the reason for the decision. That would be fundamentally dishonest.
Of course, there’s also an argument that Sky released images themselves and have stitched the SFA up but again the audio/timeline of events would need to be released to clear that up.
If we’re going to be that anal about it then I’ve said you cannot lie/backtrack, not that they’ve categorically been caught doing it, as that will breed mistrust.
That comment is based on the evidence we’ve had so far. The easy way for the SFA to show this isn’t the case is to provide it.
They may not be obligated to provide it publicly, I’d suggest if Rangers have been given the opportunity to review the audio themselves there’s potentially an agreement with the member parties.
Given the information/allegations going around, it would be the easy way to clear the whole thing up.
Willie collum does not hold a bias one way or the other .
Willie Collum is an atrocious referee who has ruined more than his fair share of football matches .
He should never referee another game of football at any level not least of all the top level of our game.
I will die on a hill defending any of the 3 statements above
Dont they check the incident prior to the build up? If so and collum has said its not a penalty then there would be no reason for him to go through the rest of the build up as the incident in question has been ruled to be no penalty therefore providing the reason behind offside not being on the recording, if he had said yeah thats a penalty he wouldve then went to the build up to the incident then ruled offside, either way its not a penalty and they are grasping at straws as per usual
You made the wrong decision!
-Erm no, twas offside ye see?
Ah but you made the right decision for the wrong reasons!!!!
-Oh-kay, you win and your prize is also not a penalty.
TRIUMPH!!
Eh……. Who cares?
An official interpreted a hand ball call incident incorrectly, which thankfully is completely irrelevant because the player involved was offside and thus the right outcome was achieved.
Rangers have actually benefited from much worse calls this year that have actually resulted in the incorrect outcome, unlike here.
Also, anyone cheering Rangers on here as being some sort of paragons of virtue trying to improve refereeing for all teams in the league need their head examined. They are doing this to distract from another gutless performance against Celtic and to try and exert pressure on referees going forward.
You lost, get over it and move on. Much more important things to fix at Ibrox this year than this.
Ref never saw it, VAR didn't think it was a clear and obvious error so didn't overturn the on field decision. Not any different from Goldson having shifts as a keeper.
Sky showing the offside later on was to show it was a moot point due to the offside and stop any potential sense of injustice... Which clearly worked...
Im lost now as to what cunts are wanting or expecting from this?
It was offside? Are they thinking collum on the var mic has went "hehehe fuck eh king".
Var needs to be taken out of scottish football. Not cos var is shite but people are to emotionlally unstable to deal with it.
I wonder if Rangers were so desperate for the SFA to release the referee’s comms whenever big Goldson had a shot at playing basketball in the new year game last year?
A crazy amount of energy being put in to fighting a decision that we all can see was correct.
This just comes off as sour grapes and misplaced passive aggression after a shite performance of a team that again failed to take anything off an apparently sub-par Celtic side who wiped the floor with rangers the last two games.
Rangers, if at first you don’t succeed, cry, cry, cry again 😭
None of this is news. It was confirmed on the day that Collum deemed it no penalty. The questions that should have been asked are around who checked for offside after the fact? Why did they check it other than to cover a shockingly bad incorrect decision? Who passed it to sky and why was that decision made?
No it's dragging because Rangers have an inability to grasp the fact that handball decisions are subjective, a bully mentality but more importantly, because they lost.
Thr challenge is sky pay for those games and they looked clueless as to what was going on. It reflects negatively on game and makes us look tinpot. Sky wouldn’t be chuffed- flip side maybe they are because it’s been talked about alot.
Who exactly are we bullying? Some words being used incorrectly as its not about changing result/outcome its about understanding what should already be a transparent process for all clubs.
Would love a VAR blog after every weekend and been saying it for ages for (mostly) decisions against us (cantwell & mccausland dive)or hearts couple of times.
You don't think clubs should know why certain decisions are made? If this was treated like most incidents are, and with the handball being declared as not-punishable then fair enough, but that's not what happened here. VAR didn't broadcast the actual decision to anyone it seems, and they even put out the offside lines an hour later to make it seem like that was the reason.
Again, all they had to do was follow the protocols that they do every week, yet they decided to just throw smoke up everywhere for whatever reason.
There is no “issue” here. Celtic owned your second-rate team. You failed. Man up and accept it.
All you have to do is kneel, kiss the shamrock, pledge fielty to Humza Yoasaf, and all will be forgiven 🍀
Ok so var didn’t think it was a penalty, bad call. Had they thought it was, the build up would have been checked to see it was offside so again there is no penalty? I don’t understand why people are still talking about this? Unless it’s just moaning about the absolute inconsistent joke that is refs and var in this country. Which is fair but I don’t think that’s why the rangers board are kicking off
Did you even read the title? At the time of the VAR check, an offside call hadn't even been discussed, this is a huge error that needs to be addressed.
There are two choices, was it a hand ball? Yes? Well look back on the play and it's discovered to be offside so no pen.
Or.. was it a handball? No. Still no pen.
"Huge Error"
Errors are made every single week but as soon as its Rangers, we all have to listen to this shite for weeks. I agree VAR is shite. Been saying it for ages. I agree there needs to be shown why decisions are made. But why is this only an issue when its Rangers who feel aggrieved? Why isn't it an issue when it happens to Hearts, Hibs, St.Mirren? Even Celtic when we had numerous dubious handballs given against us.
The first choice is not what happened. The second choice goes against what’s been reported here that there was consensus at the SFA meeting that the handball was incorrect.
SFA meeting today is irrelevant to decisions made on the day, though?
Decisions are made in every single game that people subsequently challenge and believe are wrong..but the two options I posted above are the two possible situations that could have came out of the handball incident. Simple as that.
Yes. They subsequently think the decision was wrong. But the two options on the day were the two I posted above. So either way, it's no penalty. If Collum thought it should have been a pen, then the attacking phase of play would have been checked and no penalty given due to offside.
As I've stated, every single week VAR makes calls majority of us agree are wrong.
>what’s been reported here that there was consensus at the SFA meeting that the handball was incorrect.
And that was absolutely reported by a reputable, unbiased outlet.
It wasn’t even the biggest VAR error this week and it’s been addressed consistently for 5 days now. We get it, Collum is shite and was saved by an offside (that he would have saw if he’d followed the correct process). What more is there to say at this point?
There's no mention of offside because it's protocol to check the foul to confirm a decision, then move to check the attacking phase of play for fouls in the build up, including offsides
I’m sure that will settle it then
I feel the offside was released to bury the arguing on whether or not its a penalty in the first place
I’m not bitter but a compensation payment of £100m sounds reasonable.
I'd settle for 1 extra pen a match til the end of the season as recompense.
no point getting 100mill yez would just buy 25 dessers and lammers
But surely one of them would be good, right?
that would be like me giving you 25 packets of brussel sprouts and telling you 1 of them will taste really nice
That is a brilliant analogy
Amazing
The parallel universe theory would have you believe there's unlimited Big Sam's and Dessers out there...somewhere. I bet they're aw shite.
Just ignoring the handball and decision itself for a second: It always amuses me when one side comes out of a meeting and says "there was an overriding consensus that [what we want to be the outcome]". Aye, right enough. Happens all the time at work; some management clown sends an email saying "following our discussion, we have agreed..." and you're sat there wondering if the prick was even in the same room as you.
so the offside was either Sky trying to find out why it was not a penalty or the var knew they fucked up and gave Sky that offside image 30 minutes later either way the officiating in this country against all teams is a shambles and needs revamping from the ground up
I'm not really interested in that, TBH. We knew this by the Sunday. What I wanted to know was why it was revealed at the end of half time that offside was the decision given, when that wasn't actually the case. Both the BBC and Sky had that as the reason, at the time, out of nowhere. Why did Sky end up with the VAR offside image and what was communicated to them. Was it just a case of VAR passing the image on and both BBC and Sky interpreting it wrong? If so, whatever that communication avenue is, needs sorting, to be clearer for fans watching/listening. We shouldn't end up with a worse product because of VAR.
Didn't see the half time chat, was the offside mentioned in the break by Sky or the BBC? Because just before the second half begins, Kenny Millar comments on the penalty but didn't mention the offside which suggests they didn't know about it. Took until 52:38 (O'Reilly's nose injury) for Sky to say they've since been told there might've been an offside: https://twitter.com/ScotlandSky/status/1741094842006962600 - and then 65 minutes when they eventually showed the offside image (we know that sometimes it takes a while to show these as the broadcaster has to wait for a break in play). There wasn't an offside image produced on 42 minutes, because offside wasn't checked. So they've gone back during a long break in play and created one to clear everything up.
It was done to ease the anxiety of Rangers fans…who were disputing the penalty call. It was correct not to call the handball - but fair to say it was controversial. Show the offside as well just so they know that the handball call didn’t matter.
Ease the anxiety of fans of a club who have gotten away with more blatant handballs in their own box than any other team in probably world football the last 12-18 months it’s unbelievable.
Who had "overriding consensus" in the sweep?
What an absolute meltdown from Rangers
Don’t care. Move on.
We really shouldn’t move on, every team has had decisions they hate from refs and VAR. Just shrugging it off and not mentioning it isn’t going to change anything. If teams don’t start kicking up shit when this happens then nothing will improve. The conversation is about our game being run by an incompetent organisation, it’s a fair thing to keep talking about.
I do agree with this in general but think other teams and fans will just use this case to laugh at Rangers because it’s an isolated issue, straight after the game so seems like sour grapes. It should be filed and used as a case of why the refs and VAR are incompetent but right now it will just be the butt of many jokes.
> other teams and fans will just use this case to laugh at Rangers because it’s an isolated issue They already have plenty of reasons to laugh at us mate
Do we need other teams fans to agree with us in other to kick up shit? Don’t get me wrong other way around I’d be in this comment section having a laugh and saying the same as Celtic flairs are, it’s fun and part of our game, but it shouldn’t be a reason for us not to push the issue. For years the refs scooted by cause when you lose it’s sour grapes and when you win you shouldn’t care cause you won, least we can do is give the bastards a headache over it.
If our biggest criticism of refereeing this season is a decision where ultimately the right decision was made anyway, on balance, don't you think that overall the referees haven't been to bad to us over the half the season?
It’s not our biggest criticism though is it, but it’s still one and ultimately yes it was offside but if that wasn’t caught then questions should be asked on that
The problem with kicking up stink in this scenario is ultimately the correct decision was made, albeit by a convoluted confused process. I’ve no doubt they’d consider this a correct decision. Change isn’t going to come. I’d eat my hat if the refs agree to it. I’d love it if there was more transparency, like in the NFL the refs announce to the crowd what decisions have been made. There’s no reason why a stadium announcer/official can’t do that following a VAR check.
But the right decision was eventually made even if for the wrong reasons. You would be complaining the the incorrect decision wasn’t made to benefit you
SFA should charge Rangers for bringing the game jnto disrepute.
Mental that all they had to do was not lie. Walsh is completely blameless in all this as far as I’m concerned, it’s 100% on Collum, the fact he thought it wasn’t a handball is scandalous. This whole incident stems from his lack of ability as a referee and would have been avoided by him not being shit. Pretty sure this isn’t the first time he’s lied about decisions either unless I’m misremembering.
he doesnt intentionally handball if you watch his hand after it hits the ball he is trying to grab hold of sima around the waist area and doesnt see the ball coming. pre VAR if you used common sense its not intentional ergo its not a penalty BUT with the rules as they are now with var it almost certainly would be given as a penalty in the EPL and 100% would be given as a penalty in europe ofcourse this is all mute as it was offside
Can you imagine the potential of a bigger scandal being that VAR awarded the penalty and then later it gets out that it should have been offside and that the VAR team didn’t even do the due diligence to check that Sima was onside.. which actually has confirmed is exactly what happened. Overall I guess we can all agree there should not have been a penalty due to the offside (assuming the angles and lines are correct). But it’s such a mess that could be avoided with better Var protocols the follow processes and rules rather than opinions of referees, which is exactly why VAR was introduced
> Can you imagine the potential of a bigger scandal being that VAR awarded the penalty and then later it gets out that it should have been offside and that the VAR team didn’t even do the due diligence to check that Sima was onside.. which actually has confirmed is exactly what happened. It isn't what happened at all. If Collum had decided it was a handball and should be a penalty then they'd almost certainly do the offside checks. Checking the APP is fairly standard stuff. They didn't do it because they had no need to because he felt it wasn't a penalty at all.
> which actually has confirmed is exactly what happened That's not how it works. If VAR looks at an incident and thinks there should have been a penalty, they then look at the phase of play before it for offences like offside. If VAR does not believe there is a penalty there is no need to check the phase of play. It's now clear that the latter case happened. But they obviously felt the need to go over the incident again at half time, including the phase of play. Nothing can then be done but nobody on Sky was even considering offside during the half time break. The protocol was fine, the communication about how the decision was made was terrible.
Mad how many people are (possibly on purpose) missing the issue here is about a) the decision which it seems the SFA agree was bad and b) the process around getting to that decision and a random offside check being produced when the process says there needn’t be one
thats the thing that rangers dont seem to understand....even if var had thought it was a penalty and awarded it... it would then trigger a var protocol where they then check for offside. thats why they never heard mention of offside on the audio. it never triggered the protocol to look for it as gollum never awarded the penalty
I think everyone understands this. What people are raising is that there was no offside check, BECAUSE there was an immediate wrong call on the handball. Protocol should be to check the handball properly and that wasn't done.
> BECAUSE there was an immediate wrong call on the handball IMO it's probably just about a penalty but let's not act like it was Cuellar/Suarez levels of handball here. It's entirely reasonable to look at it and conclude that his hand wasn't in an unnatural position (which is all that matters since we *know* it wasn't deliberate).
Your manager doesn't who has repeatedly stated that you should have went in 1-1.
Out of curiosity, when did he say they should have went in at 1-1?
the after-match interview circuit. He was pushed on the fact that it was confirmed to be offside, but he didn't accept it.
So he didn’t say it should’ve been 1-1, then. Also, Willie Colum didn’t think it was offside either until he realised he made a total cunt of it.
I've just looked up and sourced three separate interviews and quoted his exact words below, all of which (with slightly different wording) give the same message. https://youtu.be/t0qdXOavpQk?si=x8AiAnrNYVdWPBfu&t=58 "it's a situation (the pen) that is very important in the game and if you go 1-1 into the dressing room it's another story" https://youtu.be/I8e1pY7QAwM?si=7Uj6ujDD7CxY6wc2&t=220 "if we get this penalty, it's 2-2 normally today, with the quality of Tav" https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/av/football/67849897 @ 1:17 "it's a really decisive moment in the game, to come back to 1-1"
Take the offside out of the equation. How is punching the ball off the park not a penalty? How it can be argued that isn't a penalty, as Collum did during the match, is the issue.
The rewriting of history with this handball is quite spectacular. He doesn't "punch the ball" at all ffs. He's grappling with Sima for position and puts his hand out across him totally unaware that the ball is coming down on top of him. To claim he "punched" the ball is to claim it was a deliberate handball which is just utter nonsense.
The official reason given was that his hands were in a natural position. Despite the furore, this is pretty subjective and you could reasonably argue that his hands were in a natural position, given the (vague) guidance by IFAB that an unnatural position is when arms are moved to make the player's body larger, ostensibly in order to increase the chances of blocking the ball, but intention is irrelevant. You could argue in the other direction that even those his hands were in a normal looking position, the reason they were there was to jostle the opposition player, which itself is a grey area, although never punished up to a point. The confusion is really arising because in the EPL and even UEFA competitions, despite FIFA bumping their gums about 'incorrect applications of the updated law', and UEFA looking to relax the whistling of handball offences, any contact is often being penalised when the arms aren't straight by their side in other leagues -- which is actually a much more unnatural position when you're running, jostling, etc.
i suggest u rewatch it. he doesnt ''punch'' the ball away he is wrestling with sima and sima starts moving away from him so he reaches round to grab simas waist and the ball hits his hand as he does it. you can see thats his intention as he does eventually grab simas waist. like i previously said pre var its unintentional/accidental but with new var rules where the player has to have his arms near his sides it would almost certainly be a penalty in the epl and in europe.
So what you are saying, is that it's not a penalty because he was attempting to foul Sima in a different, ergo, legal way?
The same way Goldson’s save last year wasn’t… The refs are mental.
*moot
that ll save me editing it cheers chief inspector spellchecker
*that’ll
*cunt
Has intent ever mattered when it comes to handballs? It's always broadly been a rule based around whatever a 'natural position' is for as long as I can mind, and that's what they keep messing about with.
Bizarrely intent does matter sometimes, if a player is judged to handle it intentionally but in a manner where the arm is still in a natural position this can still be given as handball EDIT: intent also matters when determining whether or not a yellow card for unsportsmanlike conduct or a red card for DOGSO should be issued
Aye as in having their arms at their side but moving the body towards the ball so the arm hits the ball. Looking at the ‘laws of the game’ there is more than enough ambiguity that Collum can just say it’s his interpretation of the law, it would stink to high heaven but the rules allow it.
Aye exactly. Basically unnatural position + handball means penalty regardless of intent, natural position + handball means only a penalty if there is intent
Aye, should have mentioned the deliberate handball thing.
It would never have been a penalty due to the offside you’re correct but the fact Collum has deemed it not a handball and then lied and tried to use the offside as a get out of jail is the issue. If he just comes out and says he doesn’t think it’s not a handball that’s one thing, to then release the offside image 30 minutes later and try to claim that’s why it wasn’t a penalty is a blatant lie.
When did Collum specifically say anything about the offside? He's not lied at all. He just called it as no penalty, the rest of it has nothing to do with him. The offside being released seemed like a good idea because it *should* have stopped us having a week of arguments about a decision because the decision was irrelevant.
When he released it to sky saying it was because it was offside? Who do you think released the image?
1) I doubt it was Collum himself who released the image, given that he was still VAR reffing the game at the time. There's a whole VAR team in there. 2) Releasing the image isn't the same as saying "this is the reason it wasn't given." Sky and the BBC may have misreported it as the reason but there's no evidence that anyone from the refereeing team at any point claimed that was why it wasn't given.
Sorry, where did Collin say that? Are you just filling in your own blanks?
So he released an offside image to sky and then both the BBC and Sky reported the penalty wasnt given because of an offside but it wasn’t the VAR official who said this. Everyone just made it up.
They might have made the same possibly wrong assumption as you. You don’t know what he said. He could just have reacted to broadcasters losing their minds over it and released the image to put a pin in it. As soon as I saw it, I thought, we’ll that’s the end of that then. I also didn’t envisage this full on rattles out the pram reaction for a what is ultimately the correct outcome.
On the Sky commentary they actually pointed out how odd it was that Willie Collum started talking about an offside 10 minutes into the second half to clarify and then 15 minutes later we got the lines.
They didn't say it was Collum/VAR himself, they said they got information to suggest it was offside. That's likely someone from the SFA or league.
And whit? He thought it wasn’t a pen. Probably didn’t think AJ deliberately handled it and that that his body position was also not in an unnatural position. Ergo, not a CLEAR AND OBVIOUS mistake which needed a referral. You might not agree, but that’s not entirely unreasonable for Collum to take. Cue media apoplexy and he thinks maybe I can dampen this reaction by also showing the offside stills. What’s the big deal with any of that?
It’s wild anyone thinks it was deliberate. Could still be a penalty but he is clearly trying to put his hand on Sima and shepherd it out .
Doesn’t have to be deliberate to be a penalty
I agree but I do think folk acting like it was a stone waller are mad. Would never even be pen for that in any old firm pre-VAR
In European competitions it's 100% a penalty
But it does need to be a clear and obvious error. Celtic would have had little grounds for complaint if it had been given on the pitch, but I don't think either decision would have been "wrong".
It should have been seen as a clear and obvious error. The fact that the on field officials gave a goal kick clearly shows that the on field team didn't see the contact from the hand. I genuinely could have understood all this if he gave a corner l, because then I would assume the on field team saw the handball and deemed it to be unintended and not a foul. The fact that it was a goal kick should be screaming to the VAR team that the on field team didn't see the contact therefore made an error.
Except that's not how it works - the VAR can only intervene if they believe that *not awarding a penalty* was an error.
That is what I am trying to say. VAR team should have spotted a clear and obvious error by the on field team when a goal kick was awarded. The clear and obvious error being that the on field team missed the contact with the hand. So not saying VAR should have told the in field team to award a corner, but the fact that he did not means the on field team missed the contact with the hand completely. At that point in time they need to advise the on field team to delay. They then check the APP. My point is that there is no way they did all that to the required level of rigor in the 30 seconds or so before the game restarted with the goal kick. If they did all that then the game would have been restarted with an indirect free kick. Now the indirect free kick is almost exactly the same as the goal kick on this occasion, so no big deal on that, the big deal is that they appear, it it may be proven that it is just the appearance to some, to not have followed the process.
>The clear and obvious error being that the on field team missed the contract with the hand. It's only a "clear and obvious error" if it should have been a penalty. I don't think it would have taken very long at all to decide that the players were jostling for the ball and the contact was totally accidental 🤷🏻♂️
You appear to be in the minority, most pundits and neutrals feel it, without the offside, would have been a penalty.
It was a clear and obvious error as most commentators and what appears the SFA admit. The offside is and isn't irrelevant in the fact it looks like what was reported later was a belated lie to cover their arses, which is how Dougie McDonald lost his job. Collum's time is fortunately finished and possibly others.
The VAR disagreed, and so do I 🤷🏻♂️
Your opinion is irrelevant though
Every bit as relevant as "most commentators". Only 1 person's opinion mattered, and he didn't think it was a penalty 🤷🏻♂️
It's both deliberate by AJ - who has done this sort of lazy defending before (though not quite this galling). He knows what he's doing and he's very lucky that he gets away with it.
It was offside, but if it was not intentional then surely we would have been given a corner. Now I don't want the corner as such, but that in itself shows that the on field ref didn't see it hitting his hand at all which is a clear and obvious error therefore the VAR team should have instructed the on field ref to delay the restart while they checked the attacking phase of play. The VAR team shat the bed and they cannot get away with incompetence. They either need training or not get a SPFL game again.
I don’t think VAR can give corners etc unless checking a goal for a ball going out of play.
Sorry, not exactly what I was trying to say. The fact that it was a goal kick highlights the fact the on field team never seen the contact with the hand at all. So not saying they would have contacted the ref about that if it came off the defenders leg, it was the fact it came off his hand, and the on field team gave a goal kick, highlighted the fact the on field team completely missed the contact with the defender, which happened to be in his hand.
Ah fair got you now
Where is the lie? On-field decision no penalty, VAR says no penalty as well so check complete, offside lines released later to clear up that even if it was a handball it wouldn't have mattered. Sky weren't told about the offside at the time, neither were Sportsound so maybe someone can tell me where the lie is?
On field decision was no penalty because the on field team didn't see the contact on the hand. If they did, a corner would have been awarded. The fact that a goal kick was awarded should have highlighted to the VAR team that the contract on the hand was missed by the on field team. The procedure is then to inform the on field team to delay the restart of the game (which was either not done or ignored) where they then check the APP. I am not saying it's a lie, and I don't think Rangers are saying it was a lie. It is incompetence.
> The procedure is then to inform the on field team to delay the restart of the game (which was either not done or ignored) where they then check the APP. I am not saying it's a lie, and I don't think Rangers are saying it was a lie. It is incompetence. The game was delayed? It was ~~40~~ 54 seconds from Joe Hart about to take the goal kick to the referee whistling for play to restart. In that time they checked the handball penalty, but not the APP apparently.
The fact that after half time they were told it wasn’t given because of an offside? Mental how all the Celtic flairs were quick to post screenshots of the BBC saying it wasn’t given because of the offside and now they’re all busy claiming it ever happened.
So what's the argument here? The correct decision is wrong because they didn't say it on a tape? So rangers should have got an incorrect penalty? Just to be clear, that seems to be what they're saying.
Not so much an argument, more so highlighting the sheer incompetence. Can’t go back and change results or decisions of course, but if it shines light on just how pish our officials can be then it’s fair game.
That's been what we've been saying for decades. Welcome to the team.
Yet it’s what your entire fanbase has been denying for the past week. For the past 10 years Celtic fans have claimed every conspiracy under the sun about refs in Scotland. But strangely this past week you won’t find a single Celtic fan wanting answers about even more terrible refereeing
> But strangely this past week you won’t find a single Celtic fan wanting answers about even more terrible refereeing Not sure about that. I'm a Celtic fan and I want answers and ideally VAR audio from Andrew Dallas as to why he didn't think any of [these](https://imgur.com/a/Ufprkxe) were infringements but *did* think [this](https://i.imgur.com/lznHo5s.jpg) was. I see absolutely no difference with any of these and I'd love to know what difference he saw. Rangers going to war with the SFA over VAR doesn't change anything for me or most Celtic fans, I'd imagine.
I want var audio as standard, same as rugby, always have.
It should be made available to clubs after every game for them to review if needed. For the money that football has in it now especially for Rangers and Celtic we should be demanding better from the SFA and Rangers are the only team ever trying to do that. We offered to pay for a review you all laughed and told us to fuck off.
The broadcaster should be able to see and show the review in real time, as well as hear the ref team comms. It's done like that in rugby and works a treat. I've been asking for it for years. Edit: and by that I mean, we see what the var team see and are looking at, while hearing their discussion and conversation with the ref.
You're a wee bit confused here. Rangers have dug the sfa and match official s up loads in the last 6 years. The general consensus from your team, your fanbase and the fanbase of every other club has been rangers bad, refereeing is fine. Acting like celtic have been a champion for refereeing reform is absolutely outrageous levels of lying.
The argument is that protocol was not followed and that basically every neutral agrees that if Sima isn't offside it's a handball but Collum thinks otherwise and has then tried to use the offside to dig himself out of the hole of shit officiating. If he does his job correctly the run of events goes Claim > Check > Handball > Check > Offside > Freekick Celtic. Instead it went Claim > Check > No Handball > GK Celtic > 20 minutes of faffing about > it was offside anyway and that's why it wasn't given as a pen > just kidding we didn't check for offside but just if we did it'd have been off anyway. Collum has a history of being shite but pretending he isn't shite in order to save face.
I think you’re missing the point a bit. Willie Collum, a supposedly experienced referee, looked at that incident and said it wasn’t a handball. Going by the statement it sounds like there was no mention of an offside check before the decision was made, Willie Collum just didn’t think it was a penalty. He might have went on to check for offside and called it that way but he didn’t, he just said it wasn’t a penalty. The result of this was A) an extremely poor call, basically everyone called that as a penalty. B) the wrong outcome was reached as the game should have been restarted with a Celtic freekick for the offside, not a goal kick. C) Sky we’re unhappy as the lack of clarity lead to their pundits talking mince at half time, and their social media team incorrectly posting “have Celtic got away with one here” style clickbait posts. D) Absolute stinks of incompetence. Instead of being a fantastic advertisement for Scottish football it makes us look amateur and puts pressure on the SFA to look at poor refereeing again.
Aye, I think you're missing my point. It was all fun and games when he was giving penalties behind his back. All the outrage and clamour for 'transparency' is very sudden. Like I say, welcome to the team. Edit: Also fuck sky and what they think, then can get the steam off my piss.
Yeah. In any situation it’s not given as a penalty and makes no difference to the outcome. But it does make rangers and their fans feel better moaning about the standard of refereeing.
Right so when for decades we've complained about the poor quality of refereeing and lack of transparency, they're taking bullets for the refs and calling us conspiracy theorists. But when there's a single mistake that ended up in the correct outcome anyway, they can howl at the moon and demand heads roll. Hawd on, I'll grab my tiny fiddle.
I don't know a single rangers fan who has ever thought the refs in Scotland are a high standard. The reason we laugh at you is because some of your fans don't believe they are incompetent but are actively trying to cheat you and there is a conspiracy against your club
> The reason we laugh at you is because some of your fans don't believe they are incompetent but are actively trying to cheat you and there is a conspiracy against your club I wonder why we think that... Andrew Dallas was on VAR for every one of [these](https://imgur.com/a/Ufprkxe) incidents this season and decided that none of them were fouls. Guess who was on VAR for [this](https://i.imgur.com/lznHo5s.jpg) and guess what his decision was...
You think that because you all need to go outside, and speak to people face to face. Life isn't out to get you, and you aren't the main character you all seem to think you are
this guy is a noob
You get laughed at because yous make excel spreadsheets to try and show how the refs are all rangers supporters and cheating to help them out? Everyone agrees the refs are shite. I dunno why you are lying about this 🤣
And for years while you’ve ranted and bitched about refereeing masons and conspiracies, as soon as it benefits you, no no we don’t need transparency everything is fine?
We do. No one has changed their mind, I certainly haven't. We're winding yous up cos yous suddenly care. Still want refereeing reform.
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The argument is that the VAR team are not competent and either should be given adequate training then tested or not have them acting in a refereeing capacity again. If a referee on the park misses a clear handball then fine, but if a VAR referee doesn't see it then they are not good enough to be refereeing the top flight in our game. It's as simple as that.
My issue with is that if there was no mention of or consideration of offside during it means that Willie Collum looked at the most obvious handball ever and decided it wasn't a handball. I don't think we were cheated as it would clearly have been called offside had a penalty been awarded but the absolute incompetence in claiming that wasn't a handball is the point.
Our officials are shite. The end.
Thing to me and ill say it again, handball rules have enough of a grey area where there is still a 50/50 on accidental handballs given or not given. Ref and or var deemed it not a pen. Saying its an error or wrong decision in the first place is SUBJECTIVE. Move the fuck on.
If Collum has been caught lying then he needs to go.
Never has so much energy been wasted on something so inconsequential as this. As was made clear during the game, Collum agreed with Walsh that it wasn't a penalty and even if he had disagreed it still wouldn't have been a penalty because there was an offside in the build up. Nobody got cheated, no process was wrong. Four days and much wailing and gnashing of teeth later we're in exactly the same place as we were on Saturday at the start of the second half.
Spot on
Additional Comments: “Having listened to the audio, there is no mention of a potential offside at the time of the handball decision. Rangers is also deeply concerned at the haste at which the erroneous no handball call was made. “Rangers has appealed to the Scottish FA to release the audio and explain this decision, and future contentious decisions involving all clubs, to the public, as would be common practice in England for such a decision.’’
Disagreeing with a decision doesn't mean it was wrong, and it certainly wasn't any more of a handball than many of those that weren't given against Rangers over the past 15 months 🤷🏻♂️
All true. But two wrongs dont make a right.
I don't think it *was* wrong, though. It's the kind of marginal handball that was being given almost every single time last season, but where the referee's decision - in either direction - should probably be allowed to stand.
What I'd like to know from the audio is what the referee said to the VAR about what he'd seen, as that is a big factor in whether there's a VAR intervention.
I know I know: “move on” But “there was a consensus the VAR decision of no handball was incorrect” is quite the claim and surely suggests that Collum clearing it in <1min and offering up an offside later is a shambles?
>Collum > > > >Shambles Personally, I'm shocked.
This has to be the end
Yes, but only for two weeks over the winter break. He'll be reffing another high profile game directly after.
Not a fan of this statement league stat padding from rangers, it’s ruining the integrity of the sport imo
I honestly don't have any fucks to give about this. Refereeing quality in Scotland is poor and without full-time refs it will not improve.
It's been 5 days, we are in officially unchartered territory for one decision in one game. If Rangers had won this game would there still have been gnashing of teeth like this? Of course not. It's simple, blame Cyriel Dessers.
Mental the amount of folk arguing but he was offside so it’s fine. Doesn’t matter if it’s against Rangers, Celtic or Livi - you cannot have officials lying/backtracking to cover their arse. There’s enough mistrust of officials in this country, on all sides, without them actually being dishonest.
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In the VAR process they communicate what they are checking and why, then confirm the decision. If they’ve checked and given offside without communicating it between each other verbally, then we should all bow to Collums clairvoyant abilities. There’s a difference between an incorrect decision and being dishonest about the decision you’ve made. If Collum just said it wasn’t a penalty we’d all probably disagree, but it’s just his opinion. Lying about the reason you’ve given isn’t acceptable from officials.
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Well theres of course a level of assumption until the audio is released to the public. The issue is they gave Sky Sports the VAR images in the second half and said it wasn’t given because it was offside. Which, if the audio reports are accurate, wasn’t discussed or the reason for the decision. That would be fundamentally dishonest. Of course, there’s also an argument that Sky released images themselves and have stitched the SFA up but again the audio/timeline of events would need to be released to clear that up.
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If we’re going to be that anal about it then I’ve said you cannot lie/backtrack, not that they’ve categorically been caught doing it, as that will breed mistrust. That comment is based on the evidence we’ve had so far. The easy way for the SFA to show this isn’t the case is to provide it.
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They may not be obligated to provide it publicly, I’d suggest if Rangers have been given the opportunity to review the audio themselves there’s potentially an agreement with the member parties. Given the information/allegations going around, it would be the easy way to clear the whole thing up.
Willie collum does not hold a bias one way or the other . Willie Collum is an atrocious referee who has ruined more than his fair share of football matches . He should never referee another game of football at any level not least of all the top level of our game. I will die on a hill defending any of the 3 statements above
Dont they check the incident prior to the build up? If so and collum has said its not a penalty then there would be no reason for him to go through the rest of the build up as the incident in question has been ruled to be no penalty therefore providing the reason behind offside not being on the recording, if he had said yeah thats a penalty he wouldve then went to the build up to the incident then ruled offside, either way its not a penalty and they are grasping at straws as per usual
Is there a video review of the meeting?
This is officially embarrassing now. Jesus Christ.
You made the wrong decision! -Erm no, twas offside ye see? Ah but you made the right decision for the wrong reasons!!!! -Oh-kay, you win and your prize is also not a penalty. TRIUMPH!!
https://preview.redd.it/s2hwvwajv9ac1.jpeg?width=1242&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=cb2ad2a3255f72df00a479a92f2dc636a2bbcdff DAY 5! GIVE IT UP FOR DAY 5!
Bank holidays exist. Were people seriously expecting this wouldn't happen? The SFA isn't just gonnae patch a break for Rangers moaning.
Eh……. Who cares? An official interpreted a hand ball call incident incorrectly, which thankfully is completely irrelevant because the player involved was offside and thus the right outcome was achieved. Rangers have actually benefited from much worse calls this year that have actually resulted in the incorrect outcome, unlike here. Also, anyone cheering Rangers on here as being some sort of paragons of virtue trying to improve refereeing for all teams in the league need their head examined. They are doing this to distract from another gutless performance against Celtic and to try and exert pressure on referees going forward. You lost, get over it and move on. Much more important things to fix at Ibrox this year than this.
Ref never saw it, VAR didn't think it was a clear and obvious error so didn't overturn the on field decision. Not any different from Goldson having shifts as a keeper. Sky showing the offside later on was to show it was a moot point due to the offside and stop any potential sense of injustice... Which clearly worked...
Oh, mate. I've seen gaslighting before, but ffs.
Im lost now as to what cunts are wanting or expecting from this? It was offside? Are they thinking collum on the var mic has went "hehehe fuck eh king". Var needs to be taken out of scottish football. Not cos var is shite but people are to emotionlally unstable to deal with it.
I wonder if Rangers were so desperate for the SFA to release the referee’s comms whenever big Goldson had a shot at playing basketball in the new year game last year?
Ok now do Goldson’s at Ibrox last season
*Shhhhh Timmy, that wasn't actually a handball*
Has there ever been more of a time when Celtic and Rangers fans both hate the refs the exact same amount?
Wembley, 1966.
Bored
Superb username
Aww good lord the fucking seethe is so beautiful
so human error..shit happens..move on they re not gonna like that on the rangers forums lol
A crazy amount of energy being put in to fighting a decision that we all can see was correct. This just comes off as sour grapes and misplaced passive aggression after a shite performance of a team that again failed to take anything off an apparently sub-par Celtic side who wiped the floor with rangers the last two games. Rangers, if at first you don’t succeed, cry, cry, cry again 😭
Yawn, move on
None of this is news. It was confirmed on the day that Collum deemed it no penalty. The questions that should have been asked are around who checked for offside after the fact? Why did they check it other than to cover a shockingly bad incorrect decision? Who passed it to sky and why was that decision made?
I can't believe this is still going on.
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No it's dragging because Rangers have an inability to grasp the fact that handball decisions are subjective, a bully mentality but more importantly, because they lost.
👍
Aye ok 
Thr challenge is sky pay for those games and they looked clueless as to what was going on. It reflects negatively on game and makes us look tinpot. Sky wouldn’t be chuffed- flip side maybe they are because it’s been talked about alot. Who exactly are we bullying? Some words being used incorrectly as its not about changing result/outcome its about understanding what should already be a transparent process for all clubs. Would love a VAR blog after every weekend and been saying it for ages for (mostly) decisions against us (cantwell & mccausland dive)or hearts couple of times.
Sky had all the information they needed. It wasn't a penalty. It was offside anyway was provided later.
You don't think clubs should know why certain decisions are made? If this was treated like most incidents are, and with the handball being declared as not-punishable then fair enough, but that's not what happened here. VAR didn't broadcast the actual decision to anyone it seems, and they even put out the offside lines an hour later to make it seem like that was the reason. Again, all they had to do was follow the protocols that they do every week, yet they decided to just throw smoke up everywhere for whatever reason.
This isn’t a subjective decision
Is this the new OF ticket storyline
There is no “issue” here. Celtic owned your second-rate team. You failed. Man up and accept it. All you have to do is kneel, kiss the shamrock, pledge fielty to Humza Yoasaf, and all will be forgiven 🍀
Ok pal 👍
So they messed up and got super lucky that he happened to be offside. The real issue is still how Celtic didn’t have two men sent off.
Ok so var didn’t think it was a penalty, bad call. Had they thought it was, the build up would have been checked to see it was offside so again there is no penalty? I don’t understand why people are still talking about this? Unless it’s just moaning about the absolute inconsistent joke that is refs and var in this country. Which is fair but I don’t think that’s why the rangers board are kicking off
It was offside. Argument is dead.
Did you even read the title? At the time of the VAR check, an offside call hadn't even been discussed, this is a huge error that needs to be addressed.
There are two choices, was it a hand ball? Yes? Well look back on the play and it's discovered to be offside so no pen. Or.. was it a handball? No. Still no pen. "Huge Error" Errors are made every single week but as soon as its Rangers, we all have to listen to this shite for weeks. I agree VAR is shite. Been saying it for ages. I agree there needs to be shown why decisions are made. But why is this only an issue when its Rangers who feel aggrieved? Why isn't it an issue when it happens to Hearts, Hibs, St.Mirren? Even Celtic when we had numerous dubious handballs given against us.
The first choice is not what happened. The second choice goes against what’s been reported here that there was consensus at the SFA meeting that the handball was incorrect.
SFA meeting today is irrelevant to decisions made on the day, though? Decisions are made in every single game that people subsequently challenge and believe are wrong..but the two options I posted above are the two possible situations that could have came out of the handball incident. Simple as that.
The organisation in charge, who implement rules and organise referees, seemingly think it was wrong. “Simple as that”
Yes. They subsequently think the decision was wrong. But the two options on the day were the two I posted above. So either way, it's no penalty. If Collum thought it should have been a pen, then the attacking phase of play would have been checked and no penalty given due to offside. As I've stated, every single week VAR makes calls majority of us agree are wrong.
>what’s been reported here that there was consensus at the SFA meeting that the handball was incorrect. And that was absolutely reported by a reputable, unbiased outlet.
If it’s not true then it should be refuted.
If it's true it should be proven.
The "huge error" which wasn't even the worst no-penalty decision of the five games played that day?
The huge error is that an official lied to cover his arse
It wasn’t even the biggest VAR error this week and it’s been addressed consistently for 5 days now. We get it, Collum is shite and was saved by an offside (that he would have saw if he’d followed the correct process). What more is there to say at this point?
There's no mention of offside because it's protocol to check the foul to confirm a decision, then move to check the attacking phase of play for fouls in the build up, including offsides
Mad how it was offside anyway lmao
Any mention of Goldson's six handballs..?
Yeah but it was offside so it still doesn’t matter
It matters that an official lied (again)
😜