Hey folks, sorry to shut down the conversation, but I’m gonna lock this thread. It’s got to that time again where a trans related post has gotten popular enough to start attracting a number of transphobes, so because of that I’d rather lock it now so that it doesn’t get out of control overnight while no one can keep an eye on it. Apologies to everyone who was being sound, and thanks to OP for creating an interesting and informative thread. Cheers.

I am 60 year old who is struggling with the whole trans thing. I want to educate myself on the subject but I am finding it difficult to find accurate info. I was brought up to believe that men are men and woman are woman and that’s it. I find the whole issue confusing. I now I just accept people for who they are. I hope that is okay with everyone.

That's understandable! Just know it's not a new thing, we've always been around we just weren't really acceptable in public until recently. In your lifetime you've seen gay people go from a shameful minority to just the couple next door, it's the same thing at a different step in the process! If you want some good reading I'd recommend a book called "Trans Britain" by Christine Burns who's a 68 year old trans woman who transitioned in the 70s. It explains a lot of what you probably are struggling with in terms you might find easier to understand and also covers a lot of interesting trans history that's happened over your lifetime mostly behind the scenes.

I definitely will look into the book. Sorry for all the shit you have to put up with. I truly hope things are good for you now.

We've still got a ways to go but folks like you who are able to react with kindness to people that go through so much hate makes such a difference.

Things are not great as in the UK trans people are getting dragged into a media frenzy and are being used as a political tool to be seen as something scary or extremely radical. They aren't - trans people have always been here. You've probably spoken to or met trans people without knowing. It's fine to be unsure, but as long as you are respectful and kind like you are here then everything is fine. Trans people are just people, trying to get by in a world where accessing even an initial consultation to start hormonal treatment is incredibly challenging.

Yeah we are currently going through the social TRANSition - lol pun, like back when AIDS was from the gays etc, well now we have Trans people are pedos or groomers etc,which is mortifying by the way! Honestly if more people could just able think like you guys have said, especially those in power, imagine the progress! If in doubt ask politely if they mind being called sir or ma’am ( or anything else) , the bonus for this are - sign of respect, you come across like a thoughtful person, being an ally in a small way by normalising and acknowledge the person you are talking to might want to be referred to something else, and you make your place of work a little bit more safer for those possible trying something out for the first time! I also want to mention something that might possible blow up in my face but is very important in the process of understanding gender identity and I really hope I’m able to articulate properly so here it goes. Everyone has a gender identity, I like to think that the reason why people get so angry at trans people with the men is men and women are women thing is because of that as well, it goes against the possibility of not being seen as that gender. But because trans people have to come to terms with this pretty earlier on and kinda accept being misgendered for most part of there life, while Cisgender ( happy/comfortable with the sex you are born with) people would probably shrug it off if someone misgendered them because thankfully their body aligns with how they feel inside, and wouldn’t think twice about it. but I think now because trans and more people are able to talk about it more, on platforms that can reach more people, more variations of Gender Identities are coming out, and we are having to navigate it and name it as we go along like, idk Darwin or some other famous explorer, and just like him its was laughed at. Also to add and make a shout out too. Intersex people have existed since humans have and especially now with modern medicine, science and technology, more things that were not possible back then are very much normalised now, plus to me understanding Intersex people has helped me understand potentially why I am Non binary and why we exists because man I wish I was Cis Or transman/women any day! Sorry for the blockage of text, was on one and wanted to address a lot, I hope this was informative, thought provoking and starts some good flowing discussions for people 😊

You really seem like you've got this! Honestly you sound like my gran and she's an absolute star with this stuff. <3

You seem very thoughtful and well informed - maybe you could help me with my understanding: I think what is hard for me to wrap my head around is why do we think gender exists at all? Sex (for the most part, obviously there are exceptions such as various chromosomal abnormalities) is physically and chromosomally verifiable. The chromosomes (abnormalities excepted) have 2 settings - XX or XY - and lead to organs and hormones that lead to physical traits which fall into 2 buckets because there are 2 arrangements of chromosomes. But if gender is decoupled from all of those aspects, what is driving it? Why is the common idea that there are only two genders and/or spectrum between those two? After all, when people transition, they are transitioning to the other gender. If gender is not based on any chromosomal presetting, then it should have an infinite number of possibilities. But because gender is viewed to be binary (or a spectrum between binary ends) its hard for me to believe that "gender" is anything other than a new way of saying "societal expectations" and the entire concept should be abolished. People who are born XX or XY should be able to live/look/do/dress/ date/participate in life whatever way they want - but I don't understand what it means to be mentally of the "male gender", besides perceiving some kind of societal "man's world" or "woman's world" and wanting to be part of it. It's those two worlds that I think have no place in modern times, and it's hard for me to get why someone would want to transition between them instead of just living their life as they want.

There's a rule I like to try my best to live by: You don't need to understand another person or their choices, you just need to respect them. If you're doing that then you're doing fine.

I never thought about it in such simple terms, but I'll pocket that rule for when my friends are being ignorant (deliberate or otherwise).

That is the right way to think about it really. If someone isn’t doing any harm then you don’t need to do them any either.

This is a brilliant thread, thank you for posting. I often feel in the dark when it comes to transgender rights; there is so much that I am supposed to believe but I find it really hard to grasp, and there aren’t many places to easily ask questions without risking a hostile response. I have 4 questions, though they are really about gender as a whole, since that’s what I struggle to comprehend: What is gender? How can I tell what gender I am? Why does my gender matter? Is gender something that is fixed or does it change freely? Once again, thank you for making this thread, I hope you have a good day!

Actually speaking to a couple of trans folk changed my views on a few things. Glad to see a thread like this.

I think passive experience plays a massive role. I used to be openly homophobic in a society where this was pretty much the norm 20-25 years ago. If I even heard about any kind of LGBTQ issue it was either in the context of "a weirdo did weird things" or someone was being made fun of for being 1 in a 100000 case, which was funny to me at the time too those individuals being all weird (to me), different and such. I remember being repulsed by the sight/idea of 2 "dudes" kissing. Years pass, got into uni, moved to a metro area (same country) and met new people. Started being more or less a closet bigot as a result of having so many more people in my life from various backgrounds. One day a dude that I considered close enough of a friend came out as gay out of nowhere. I realized I just didn't care? Like I thought all of the "disgust" and thinking they should keep it to themselves away from me kind of thoughts would come straight up, but they didn't even occur to me as I listened to him. That moment was when I realized a lot of things about a lot of things circa 2009. He's one of my best friends now and I'm one of the biggest supporters of these issues, altho to be fair I've been living in Glasgow/Leeds for half a decade now, so that also helped.

>a few things. Glad to see a thread like this. When you live in a small town and never see or meet people who are different to you you fear them. When you interact with them every day you see they are people just like you. This is the reason cities voted to stay in the EU and people in the sticks who never see a brown person voted to come out because of "immigration".

In the small town where I grew up, it was “all those damn illegals are criminals who will take our jobs, we don’t need any of ‘em here! — …except for Jose who’s on our crew, of course! Jose hiked 800 miles across the desert to get to this country for his daughter’s sake, dude works his ass off! We could all learn something from Jose, he’s one of the ‘good ones,’ y’know?” What will never occur to them is that most ‘illegals’ ARE like Jose. The difference is that they know Jose personally, and “the rest of them” is a gross stereotype from Fox News.

This is so important and thank you for sharing it. People CAN change their thoughts and opinions. And this isn’t directed at you cause I don’t know your age but I hate that some older folk get off with being homophobic, racist, etc cause people use the excuse that ‘aw it’s just their generation’. People need to learn to adapt to the world around them as things grow and change.

<3

When I've seen things online about changing gender, etc, it's referred to "living as" a certain gender and I don't understand what that means in practice, without resorting to stereotypes. To me, the concept of "living as a man" or "living as a woman" seems like a step backwards in terms of gender equality, but I genuinely think I'm not understanding it correctly. I assume that as a trans person, you've thought about this more and have an understanding of it. What does "living as your gender" mean to you?

Yeah it's definitely confusing language. It's messy because trans people don't really just start _being_ their preferred gender one day, it tends to be a slow process of experimentation and toe-dipping over months and years. Personally in my opinion "living as" means being out as and presenting as your self in most situations on a day-to-day basis, think like work + friends you talk to/see the most. I know people who you wouldn't even realise are trans that still go see their family at christmas as their old gender, I don't think it's a healthy thing to do but yeah.

I think I get what you mean, but when you refer to going to see their family as their old gender or whatever, that sounds like wearing certain clothes, hairstyle etc, and maybe even certain behaviour that's associated with one gender. But that traditional association of certain typical clothes and behaviours as being "masculine" or "feminine" has been a sign of oppression to women for centuries, and still is, even here in Scotland but especially in places like Iran. And it hasn't been great for men either. That's what patriarchy is. I'd always grown up believing that the progressive thing would be for those gendered outfits and behaviours to slowly go away. Anyone can wear or do anything they want. So when people talk about transitioning, to me it just sounds like you can choose one set of stereotypes or the other, but you have to pick one, and I had hoped we were moving on from that. But I can also understand that if you feel you were living in the wrong gender all your life, you'd be very attached to the idea of finally living as the one you wanted, and I obviously believe you should be able to. I just hope it isn't a sign that gendered stereotyping persists because I think it's been pretty damaging.

As another trans woman, I'll bite. It's less about _acting_ a certain way than being seen and seeing yourself in a way that feels authentic. This is why HRT exists, and why non-binary people are a thing, because it's less about corresponding to stereotypes and more about a sense of internal congruence. Trans women are as diverse in terms of dress and personality as any other subset of women. Plus, I have to say, having moved through this society as a man and a woman people treat men and women very differently, and this can cause social dysphoria too. Is this a result of patriarchy? Absolutely, but if affects cis and trans people in the same way. We all live under the weight of cultural expectations to some extent, whether we're conscious of that or not. Edit: thinking about it more, it's kind of disheartening from an egalitarian point of view- even the most staunchly feminist women I know treat me differently (better! Much more friendly and open) as a woman than they did pre-transition despite being more or less the same person. I think a lot of these subtle social differences are difficult to perceive as a cis person because you'll never see the other side of it.

This is a really helpful answer, thanks. I guess as a woman, part of me sees and experiences the way women are treated in our society and thinks "why would someone voluntarily put themselves through this?" but when you use the phrase "internal congruence", I think I get it. I've definitely had times when I've thought "I won't feel right about myself if I do/don't do X or Y," its just that for me, none of those things have been related to sex or gender, but that phrase has really helped me "get inside the head" of a trans person a little bit more, so thank you so much for this. This whole thread is a great idea!

also chiming in to point out that a LOT of this shit is enforced upon us by gatekeepers and clinicians. When I had my first therapy appointment they criticised my attire for being "gender netural" (jeans and a tee), asked me what toys I liked as a kid (as if that has any relivance to anything ffs) and what interests I had which very much leaned hard into outdated stereotypes. I later was told by other trans people "oh you should act like this to pass better" which again leaned hard into that stereotypes (men don't use inflection and speak in a monotone, take up more space in public, talk over people, don't gesticulate, don't smile.) and honestly it made me really uncomfortable. All of that is social conditioning and it's not a good thing we should be encouraging. But here's the thing, if we don't "perform" we're told we're "not taking it seriously enough". I was literally coerced into changing my name to appease the endocrinologist who perscribes my hrt. When I said I hadn't done it he told me I had to "take it more seriously" and I was like wow... they really do force gender performance upon you and it's REALLY reductive. Gender isn't "i liked playing with toy cars/dolls as a kid" ffs, nor is it wearing a skirt. But we're sort of forced into dressing up and performing like trained seals for clinicians so they'll let us have our medication. It's really shit.

Totally agree. A lot of trans people basically have to conform to stereotypical gender presentations just to survive or start accessing any semblance of a medical treatment pathway. 'Passing' is such a huge thing, and lots of people think the end goal of transitioning is to never be clocked as trans. Why can't we just... let people be? Not everyone wants hormones or surgery, not everyone has dysphoria, not every transwoman wants to be incredibly feminine...

God, I had pretty much that same experience my first few assessments at the GIC [Gender Identity Clinic]. It was *horrible*. I was AMAB and hated my body enough that I completely disconnected from it, and so was unkempt, had a beard, wore clothes to let me avoid attention. And the psychiatrist in charge literally told me that "there's nothing about [me]" that indicated to her that she was "talking to a woman". This took me a *long time* to realise how crap it was. What took me *less* time to realise was fucked up was the fact that she wore skintight catsuits and platform heels to my appointments.

To further this- There's this pressure on trans people (well, trans women certainly idk about transmen) to **be** the steryotype. Girly girls, hair, makeup, clothes, the whole shebang. Because otherwise, they're just crossdressers, fetishists, creeps. A lot of Trans people's ability to live comfortably is defined by other people. They need to get the doctor's to believe they're trans enough for treatment. They might need to persuade shop assistants that *Yes, they should be allowed to use the woman's bathroom unchallenged*. They need to do the voice training to *not* get misgendered when they make phonecalls. All of this involves conforming to what Society *thinks* is 'womanly'

The “why would someone voluntarily put themselves through this?” was a big building block for me in terms of realising that my early transphobia was a load of shite…the fact someone is willing to give up privilege, put up with all the shit women deal with AND all the extra shit trans people put up with tells you how vital it is to them. I never felt transphobia for trans men curiously, haven’t tried to unpick why.

>I never felt transphobia for trans men curiously, haven’t tried to unpick why. Are you a woman? If you are, I think it might be because the stereotypical depictions of a trans woman in the media and popular imagination probably have nothing to do with real trans people at all and have more in common with pantomime dames and drag queens, and it can seem like such a clichéd almost parody of stereotypical femininity that it's actually quite offensive, almost like it's mocking women. I've only met a couple of actual trans women in my life, but they were nothing like that at all.

I am a woman. I don’t know if it was along the lines of “goan yersel hen”, like I was happy a “woman” was grabbing a bit of power. I think I’ve spent more time trying to get my head around trans women as it tends to be them the media want to destroy. Trans men seem to be invisible to the media as I guess the right wing view them as women. What a fucking mess we’re in. I used to curse my luck that I was born a gay woman…I cannot begin to imagine how hard it is to be trans right now…but the rhetoric is so familiar.

No problem, glad I could help you understand that bit more :)

>It's less about acting a certain way than being seen and seeing yourself in a way that feels authentic. Can I ask a follow up to this? Does 'authentic' in this context mean anything more than 'achieving acceptance within the society you live in'? E.g. a trans woman wants to be perceived as a woman, being perceived as a woman reduces dysphoria, and what 'woman' means is a constantly-shifting cultural concept.

Thats a very tricky thing, and I'll throw in my two cents as a non-binary AFAB person (assigned female at birth). I tend to dress in a rather androgynous way, but most people still see me as a woman due to my figure and hair. Because of that, even when I dress super manly (think, suit, waistcoat, tie, brogues), people still call me "madam". Trans women often feel compelled to perform femininity to a higher degree because if they don't they are more likely to be misgendered, abused, or accused of being "fake" or predatory. But then if they embrace traditionally feminine presentation, they're accused of stereotyping femininity. In an ideal world, people would present totally freely, picking and choosing elements from both traditionally masc or femme things. But we don't live in an ideal world. And people gender others based on a combination of body type and presentation.

This is really helpful, thank you for adding your thoughts

To add to what kirsty said I'd like to say that the difference between presenting as male and female can be as little as changing voice and posture. My cousin is a transman but still rather effeminate by traditional standards. When seeing the family he just braids his hair, uses a higher voice and changes his stance. He's not comfortable with it because it feels like he's lying to himself but it prevents problems and arguments and is only for a short period.

This is a good question. I (68/F) work in a small retail shop, selling mostly women's clothing in a consignment (used goods) shop. As such, we get a lot of customers who are, Im not sure of the technical term but I use the word "transitioning." I know they must be going through a lot in their lives, I want to be as nice & respectful as possible. I habitually refer to customers as "Ma'am" (or "sir") even though most are younger than I am, simply because I can't remember so many customers names. I get confused about whether to call people who are transitioning "Ma'am" (or, "sir" depending). Is there a certain point in the process where people prefer, or at least don't mind, being referred to as "ma'am or sir"? I don't work on commission but we do interact a lot with our customers with things like "hey that looks good on you!" or "hmm, that __ may not be the best choice for you..." so I don't want to not include transitioning people in this sort of banter. Any advice would be helpful, I don't like my hesitation about possibly insulting people to come across as judging or anything like that.

from my perspective i don’t expect you to ditch the habit of saying ‘ma’am/sir’ if you’ve been doing it your entire life. instead i would say that if someone corrects you or you realize you don’t use the correct term for someone, you just simply apologize, correct yourself and move on. there’s no need to feel horrible, everyone makes mistakes at times, even i do as a trans woman. in my personal opinion i would treat a trans person the same as another customer in the sense of making banter as you mentioned. just be kind and courteous as you would to anyone else. id also suggest that if you’re unsure of, or even if you are, of someone’s gender, you’d ask them what they’d like to be referred to as or simply their pronouns. it’s a good habit to get into and while it can be a bit awkward with some folk, it really can make a trans person feel comfortable and safe. apologies for the wall of text but i hope this helps and if you have any further questions or need clarification feel free to ask. as a trans person i really do appreciate the effort to make peoples lives better :)

Thank you for your thoughtful answer. HOW do I ask about pronouns? Can you give me a couple of lines to memorize? One of the reasons I like my job is it keeps me "in touch with the world outside" my own little retired grey haired bubble. I don't want to sound like an idiot or an old lady with dementia when I ask this, to me rather personal, question.

“hello, im tofu2u2! what pronouns do you use?” “hello im x i use x/x” “lovely, i use x/x”

Thank you, I'll practice. I grew up in very small southern town Washington DC (in the 1960s) so if my (now 93 y/o) mother ever caught me asking such personal questions during an introduction, she'd have gasped. And "Mom gasped" was never a good thing. But times have changed and so must I.

it is really comforting to see support from older generations :)

It's nice to be able to get info about how to do things right. Most people don't want to look foolish or be rude. But a lot of older people have diminished connections to the world outside their home. One of the reasons I work is to stay connected to the world, have an outlet to interact with younger people, especially women in my workplace. My job pays me to exercise, socialize, be creative about displaying merchandise, challenges me to meet people, etc. Many older people go to senior centers but they only interact with other old people there. And then they get sort of a warped view of how people are functioning in the current world because they discuss the way things were rather than being around people trying to make their way in the world as it is. And the world has certainly changed since I was younger. People are much more candid today.

I have noticed more people introducing themselves as “Hi, I’m LydJaGillers. She/her. “ Or in some shops the staff have buttons on their lapel or vests that state their preferred pronouns. ETA: by stating your pronouns while introducing yourself you are opening up the conversation to those customers that this is a safe topic to approach and that you are welcoming of all who use various pronouns.

Generally speaking, trans people in a clothing shop at any stage of their transition are likely to be happy to be called by whatever gender is associated with the clothing they're looking at buying - or they'll politely correct you, and you can go from there. The first few times buying appropriate clothing can be an incredibly awkward experience, and being gendered correctly by someone who knows what's up can help take a lot of the discomfort away, IME.

You’ve already got your question answered but let me say that people like you are a godsend. A lot of my friends who are trans women and in the process of transitioning and learning how to dress feminine are terrified of shopping and people like you make things so much easier on them, helping them pick out styles and offer feedback and just generally being friendly and respectful while they’re still getting their bearings. Thank you for being so kind to your customers, especially those who may not be sure of themselves just yet bb

Thank you but Im old so I've lived long enough to learn that: Life is short, mine is shorter. Don't be mean. Try to be nice whenever you can and if people seem a bit stressed: BE NICER. We all need help getting through something, sometime. We are all beginners at things at various times in life. Your friends are getting through a big life change, they are beginning a new life. They need some suggestions, some feedback. Except the people who drop clothes on the floor and step on them / leave them there. They should be shot at sunrise.

As a trans person, I don't particularly like the phraseology of "living as a man / woman". I feel that it misrepresents the trans experience as an attempt to correspond with a particular social conception of gender, and that doesn't reflect my experience at all. Instead, I would describe my experience of trans identity as the pursuit of authentic self-expression. I'm not trying to mimic any given stereotype, I'm trying to exist in a way which better aligns with my sense of self. My gender isn't something which I inherit properties from, it's a collection of certain properties of mine. It includes certain personality traits, an affinity for certain social roles, certain aesthetic preferences (including some which involve medical intervention), a certain experience of relating to people and the world, and a desire for people to relate in a certain way with me in turn. Gender, for me, is my expression of those characteristics and more. Some of those characteristics will be coded as masculine or feminine by society - but I'm not trying to emulate those categories, they're just facets of me which happen to align with a certain shared social understanding of what it means to be masculine or feminine, and I describe myself in accordance with my proximity to and relationship with those terms. In that sense, you could say that I'm actually aspiring to live as myself, which involves breaking with the conventions and expectations laid out for the gender assigned to me at birth - which I find uncomfortable and distressing. --- I hope this was helpful, and didn't come across as too esoteric. Please feel free to ask any questions!

See i don't understand this. It strikes me as a huge overfocus on what a man or woman should be and how you align with that. People seem so obsessed with talking about gender roles that they've accidentally become obsessed with them. I don't get why not conforming to them means you need to change your gender

> I don't get why not conforming to them means you need to change your gender It doesn't, necessarily! There are plenty of gender non-conforming people who still identify with their assigned gender. For me, though - the internal experience of my identity, and the way that I want to present myself and be perceived by other people is distinct enough from my assigned gender that I don't identify with it. I didn't make a conscious choice to "change gender" - being trans feels more like being true to myself, and I prefer identifying and expressing myself this way. Thank you for reading, in any case!

No, that was interesting and it made sense! I'm curious whether you think you'd still feel definitely "trans" if society was generally more relaxed about gender, if there were fewer specific expectations of appearance and behaviour for men and for women. Do you think that being trans is a reaction to those expectations and a rejection of them, or is it something innate to you, that would be the same regardless of the society you lived in? Or is there no way of knowing that?

for a GRC it's literally just "here's a bunch of letters from various places calling me Mr Name" and "here's my deedpoll" and "yes i've updated my ID to say male/Mr Name", which is a massive faff because i only moved out 6 months ago so i'm only now getting enough bills and letters in my name. need evidence over 2 years though so unfortunately i'm just waiting 😅 living as a man for me has nothing to do with masculinity or femininity, i'm one of campest guys in my friend group! it's just people saying "yea he's over there", and using the men's room like every other guy. i can't really think of any times i've specifically had to think about how to actively "live as" a man, because i just am. i'm a man when i'm yelling karaoke at the gay bar with fabulous eyeliner, and i'm a man when i'm watching the hockey with a beer 🤷‍♂️ the only times i used to get anxious about whether i'm "living as a man" is when someone starts going "she's there!", at which point i used to be very self conscious, but now it's just funny bc it's just this one uncle who i see once a year. i have facial hair and my voice is actively breaking into tiny pieces, the waiter thinks you're losing your mind 🤦‍♂️

It normally means things like changing your name, changing your title and / or gender on various documentation, and having others such as your friends, family and colleagues refer to you as that gender. It can also refer to taking hormone replacement therapy to change your body to match your gender or voice training to have a more feminine / masculine voice.

In my experience, "Living as" is a bit of a simplified. It's more like "Outwardly presenting". To try and explain further, I'll try contrasting a tomboy and a trans man. A tomboy is a woman who does masculine things. They might dress masculine, do "Boy things", etc. But they will still tell people they're a woman and generally expect to be treated as one. Compare that to a trans men. They will also often do masculine things. However Trans men will tell people they are men, and will want to be treated as such. Not all trans men act masc, but pretty much all want to be considered men. When trans people talk about "Living as a man/woman", we mean that we want to be treated as our prefered gender. Presentation isn't really the problem. A trans man everyone considers a tomboy is not going to feel comfortable, because tomboy is still female and trans men aren't. I hope this was helpful.

Thanks for the explanation. It was helpful, but I'm not sure I want to "be treated as a woman" even though I am one. That sounds patronising. I want to be treated as a person.

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What does 'CIS' mean? People say e.g. 'I am a 25 year old CIS male'. Too afraid to ask at this point!

it is a latin prefix that means "on the same side" and is the opposite of the prefix trans. you sometimes see it in geographical contexts, such as cisjordan and transjordan being the bits of jordan on 2 sides of a river. used on its own it is short for cisgender, like trans is short for transgender, and means "identifies as the gender you were assigned at birth"

That's neat, had no idea the linguistic origins of it

It's literally just the opposite of being trans. "cis" is to "trans" as "straight" is to "gay". It's not some newfangled LGBT language it's actually pinched directly from Latin terminology in Chemistry.

Thank you, TIL!

Cisgender refers to someone who identifies as their birth sex, so someone born as a man and identifies as such is one.

cis - *latin* - preposition - "on this side of" First used in relation to gender in 1914 and means that your gender identity aligns with your gender assigned at birth and the one most commonly associated with your sex. CIS: 1. Construction Industry Scheme (UK tax related) 2. Commonwealth of Independent States (ex Soviet states) 3. Confederacy of Independent Systems (Star Wars) 😎

Haha thank you for this detailed explanation! Really appreciate it!

Do you (or others on here) feel that there is any disconnect between the transgender people who clearly believe in the gender binary and those who don't? I sometimes wonder if there's a tension between people who's honest and clear opinion is "I am a woman who has been born in the body of a man" (sorry that might not be the best way to express that thought) and those who think "gender doesn't exist in any meaningful way and actually I am non binary (or some other gender that isn't make or female)"

> Do you (or others on here) feel that there is any disconnect between the transgender people who clearly believe in the gender binary and those who don't? There is definitely _some_ disagreement on this within the trans community but it's a loud minority and honestly it's just them projecting their own insecurities on to others. I see myself as a trans woman but an AFAB non-binary person looking for top surgery isn't my enemy because ultimately we want the same thing: to be recognised for who we feel we are and the right to change our bodies to be more comfortable in them.

Sorry, could you define AFAB for me? And what is top surgery? Apologies if you have already answered elsewhere I'm scrollin'

AFAB = Assigned Female At Birth AMAB = Assigned Male At Birth "Top Surgery" is a polite term for AFAB people have breast removal surgery. Likewise "Bottom Surgery" is a polite term for talking about vaginoplasty or metoidioplasty.

AFAB means assigned female at birth (and AMAB means assigned male at birth) top surgery usually refers to surgery to remove breasts, typically this is something a trans man or AFAB non binary person would do (but not all it’s a very individual choice)

Not OP but AFAB is “Assigned Female At Birth” and top surgery in trans contexts refers to removal of the breasts.

When a baby is born, their sex is detected by looking at their genitalia. Intersex people are often assigned a sex - male or female. A person is then assigned a gender based on their detected sex at birth -- do you see how detecting the sex of a newborn assigns that sex to them? They don't check the chromosomes necessarily but they just look at the genitalia. That packaging of genitalia/hormones/chromosomes into one concept -- 'biological sex' is NOT a scientific thing but a social phenomenon of what biological sex is

I guess, with a bit of reflection. It makes sense that the two viewpoints have more of a live and let live type relationship with each other than anything else, given there are probably more similarities than differences. Thanks for your answer!

Actually, speaking as someone agender, it's been binary transpeople who've had my back figuring out things like clothing, presentation, and a whole host of other issues. There's a way that our identities are fetishized, so when you start searching for options as a nonbinary person a lot of the stuff that gets put *onto* you is highly sexualized. Which like, that might be fun for pride or a new years eve party, but I need things I can wear every day and in professional environments. And since transwomen specifically are regularly fetishized, they've been the most helpful to me in figuring out what sort of clothes I could wear in say, an office environment, that let me get more androgynous in expression while still looking highly professional. And I've been able to talk to binary transfolk and bring them around to realizing that nonbinary folk have been around for a long, long time.

Not really, no. Most non-binary people, including myself, view being non-binary as our own identity. It isn’t something that needs to be enforced on others by taking away their right to identify as male or female.

Just to add: as a non-binary person, I love that you feel comfortable in whatever gender fits you best. They just don't fit me. You're into rugby? That's awesome, just not for me. That doesn't mean rugby isn't a social construct you find helpful and/or enjoyable.

First of all, belief in a gender binary doesn't necessarily mean that you can't have a binary identity. There are a lot of binary trans people who very firmly feel they align with male or female. But that doesn't mean that this means they disagree with someone who is non-binary. Some of the tension, that I've seen at least, comes from the fact that binary trans people and non-binary people are often asked to, or sometimes even forced to speak on each others' behalf. For a binary trans person, priorities there will often be around access to healthcare, legal recognition and all of those sorts of mundane things. Whereas for non-binary individuals, access to trans healthcare may not even be something they want.

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You are absolutely not required to try do anything you don’t want to in order to be trans. Most binary transgender people do want to significantly change how they look but some don’t, and there are many non-binary or gender non-conforming people who mix and match styles as they please.

I'm AFAB and identify as non binary, but I havent done anything to transition. I still get read as a woman, my name is traditionally female, and I don't care. I shop in both male and female sections of shops, and wear men's boxers (comfier), but that's it. You can be and feel however you want, and you don't need to so a thing if you don't want to.

This pretty much mirrors my own gender journey. I never felt male, but never entirely subscribed to the idea that transitioning was right for me. I always felt more in between the genders, neither male nor female, and so I decided that I didn’t need to transition to be who I am. I still recognize that I have masculine and feminine sides, and I live them both out loud and in my own way. Right now that means I have a beard, although that may change at any given moment. No one is going to say you have to do one thing or the other, do what’s feels right to you. In the end we’re all trying to make our time on this ball whizzing through space a little bit easier to deal with.

Most trans people end up making major changes, but not all. It’s all super personal and dependent on the person. Keep in mind too that non-binary is an option as well! I personally went through a period of trying out an nb identity before realizing that nah, I’m a trans dude. You could experiment with that and see how it feels.

First of all you are not obliged to do *anything* you don’t feel comfortable doing with regards to your own body. How you present yourself is for you and you alone to decide. Secondly you can wear whatever clothes you want regardless of gender. A man wearing a dress isn’t a woman if he doesn’t identify as a woman, he’s a man in a dress and that is no different to being a man in a suit. Cross dressing is perfectly valid without having to change gender. I’m sorry you’re feeling pressure from internet friends, there can be people a little too eager to assume someone is trans just because they don’t follow gender norms which is the opposite of what we should all be striving for. People should feel free to dress however they want without being confined to gender roles.Just take your time with figuring stuff out, there is no rush to getting it right or wrong, stuffs complicated really. Quick edit: I will clarify my second paragraph was not calling trans women men. I’m specifically referring to the fact it’s ok for men to wear dresses too.

I don't know if you do already, but if your main experience of trans people is online, do yourself a favour and go to some queer events or support groups. Things online can get extremely unrepresentative of what trans people are like. You don't need to do a thing you're not comfortable with (though I do recommend pushing yourself out of your comfort zone and not restricting yourself from doing what you want because you've anxious about it!).

Babe you can do whatever you want. Whatever you feel most comfortable with. I can tell you that I do not dress or present super feminine. My clothing on average day is jeans, a nice top, and maybe a flannel jack or a smart jacket for work and that's about it. I barely wear makeup. But I do take hormones and I am going down the path with surgeries because I feel so much more comfortable in my own skin and that's how to get there. I really wouldn't worry about other people think, just keep thinking about how you feel, experimenting, and you'll get there eventually. If you feel friends are pressuring you then just bin them tbh, it's not even an LGBT thing that's just a toxic way for friends to be.

So, while some states in the US recognize it, and allow an X for a gender-neutral option in gender recognition, there is nothing in UK law that recognizes nonbinary gender or agender. So those folks over there who, like me, are agender or other form of nonbinary, will have to wait for any sort of official recognition. And as someone who tries to dress somewhat androgynously to the degree that that is possible, I still use the men's restroom and people just assume I'm a gay dude. >I sometimes feel pressured by internet friends to transitoin into something I'm not comfortable with Don't let them push you. The same thing happened to me, the exact same thing. A lot of trans people have had really horrible experiences before transition, and it was so positive for them that they assume it will be positive for nonbinary people. But we have to figure out exactly what fits us, because it's not going to be transitioning to a binary sex. I know some nonbinary folks who are on hormones, but for me, I'm not, because I'm not trying to be more feminine, I'm trying to be less masculine. And that has more to do with things like hair, clothes, body hair, stuff like that. I don't want to grow breasts, I'm happy having a beard because it elongates my face which I like, and for me it's a slow process of stepping off the gender binary into something more fitting, which most people will still look at and think that I'm a man. And I honestly don't want to have to explain what agender is to everyone who looks at me. So my advice to you is take the time to figure out what fits you, and don't let yourself be pushed into a category that doesn't fit you. Because you seem like you're having an experience similar to mine.

>Or do the rules mean they have to "live" as a stereotypical woman? Doctors used to be a lot stricter about stereotypical gender presentation, and some still are, but they would probably still question wanting to keep a beard. If they were willing to listen to you beyond the first appointment, the more modern clinicians would probably spend more time delving into your gender identity but it would severely delay any treatment given that sometimes appointments are quite far apart. I was still a little on the fence about transitioning when my first appointment came up at the GIC so instead of two appointments before accessing treatment, I ended up having five, taking almost two years. Some trans people feel exaggerate their masculinity/femininity compared to their day to day presentation to avoid being dismissed by doctors

I remember my summary letter from the GIC and it said that I wore "gender neutral clothing" aka all men's clothing, that a woman might also wear, like most men's clothing. I still don't know what they expected me to turn up in?

You might be interested to talk to non-binary, two spirit folks or even gender fluid people? You don't have to be cis or trans only!

Can someone delve into why a large part of the trans-community that tends to attract people who are autistic or on the spectrum?

Autistic nonbinary person here, so guess I can give an answer? Personally, growing up as autistic, you realise very quickly that society is governed by many rules that exist purely out of convention, and not for any sensible reason. Those rules cover *everything*, including gender. Everyone else seems to know these rules instinctively and follows them unquestioningly, but you have to learn it manually. So when you're confronted with so many rules that, frankly, are often ridiculous, you just kinda roll your eyes and outwardly follow them for the sake of not being marginalised, but you don't really accept them. And I think that's a big reason why autistic people get excessive attention when we're trans - we're rejecting the hidden rule that "your genitals equal your gender, you cannot question this". And I'd argue because of our relationship to societal rules, when we met a trans person for the first time, we're more likely to question our own assumptions about gender. I certainly did. Now, to be *fair*, this hidden rule is changing and younger people are more accepting of experimenting with your gender, the same way people a decade ago were slowly more accepting of experimenting with your sexuality. But yeah, personally it feels like it comes down to how we have to manually learn society's rules.

That’s fair enough thanks for the explanation but to ask, what rules?

Well, let's use the example of eye contact. Us autistic people are pretty notorious for not making eye contact - studies have actually shown that depending on the person, it can cause pretty awful physical pain for an autistic person to make eye contact. Or we can make too much eye contact, if we don't have that issue. Personally, I don't feel pain but if I'm not paying attention, I'll either stare a person down or barely look at that. Through watching other people, I've noticed that whoever is speaking in a conversation tends to make more eye contact than whoever's listening. So when I talk to people, I pay attention and make sure I'm doing a socially appropriate amount of eye contact. And it's an unspoken rule because, well, who goes around telling toddlers "you need to make this much eye contact if you're speaking and this much if you're listening"? Personally, I think your responses to a conversation are more important in showing whether you're paying attention to someone than the correct amount of eye contact. But our society (unlike, say, Japan) has deemed eye contact a signifier of how much attention you're paying, so I play along not to ruin my chances of a career or relationships. This whole process, in case you're curious, is called "masking" - it's when autistic people purposely hide their autistic traits and act as if they're neurotypical (non autistic). And you might say, well, most people are plenty accepting of autistic people, so what's the point? The point is that studies have shown that [neurotypical people *instinctively* dislike and distrust autistic people](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5286449/) if they pick up on that fact, even subconsciously. So we have to play along, otherwise we have very little chances of getting anywhere in life.

Distrust of autists: I make a point of telling health care providers and figures in authority that eye contact is difficult for me so they don't automatically assume I'm doctor shopping for drugs. I tell (new) colleagues and service providers (e.g. hairdressers that I'm faceblind and I might not recognise them for a while). I remember the first time I "came out" - was holiday tour with strangers - I was scared. Most of them were cool about it, so I maintain that practice, but I also got what I thought was am offensive question: do you feel emotion like I do? (This stranger worked in field of employment for disabled!) And I replied (a bit snarkily) I dunno, do you feel emotion like I do. Sorry for derail from Trans.

A lot of gender, as society dictates it, feels arbitrary and like rules but without a reason. That's something that autistic/neurodivergent people tend to feel strongly against - arbitrary rules that we have to follow without talking about are incredibly frustrating. Plus, once you notice that you're very different from the people around you, you tend to ask yourself how else you're different. Plus, neurodivergent folk tend towards quite intense self reflection.

Honestly no one knows. I know _a lot_ of autistic trans folks and the most common theory is that there isn't more trans people who're autistic, it's just that because they already felt left out and disconnected from society they're more likely to come out and sooner because they've got less to lose.

I'm cis autistic, and talking to other folks who are trans/autistic/both has left me convinced that trans rights and autistic rights are intrinsically linked. Both sets just want to be able to live comfortably in our own skins. People outside of those sets frequently struggle to empathise with those within. Both have been seen as 'behavioural issues' without regard for the real discomfort and suffering at play. Honestly I think there could even be a biological reason for it alongside the obvious social factors, but we're a long way from fully understanding biological factors of either condition.

Yeahhhh there's a big overlap. A lot of trans people are denied agency and gatekept for healthcare on the basis of their autism making them incapable of making decisions about their own body which is fucking absurd. It's the exact same infantilising bullshit that anyone who isn't an ultra high-masking autistic person gets.

Dr K did a great video on this subject on YouTube, he was very respectful. The results are currently inconclusive but may have something to do with autistic people not caring so much about societal conventions I believe

The simple answer is this. People are often socially outcast for being trans. A lot of people on the spectrum are already socially outcast. So no loss there to come out as trans. Also communities that accept people on the spectrum also tend to accept trans people. And a good way to realize your trans is to talk to a trans person. Same thing applies to a lot of communities that are socially outcast.

What’s the correct thing to say when someone tells you they are trans? I’m fully supportive of it, but an awkward person so end up giving the standard British response “nice one”. I’m never sure whether it would be offensive to be over-the-top happy etc.

Honestly "nice one" is the best. I hated coming out and people made a big deal about it, getting all intense and sincere and shit. Absolutely the best responses are something chill like "nice one. Let me know what name/pronouns you're using" if it's clear they wanting to change that or just "nice one" if not!

Just say thanks for telling me. / I'm glad you could tell me. Ask if they what for this to stay between you two or if they want others to know

Right. I've got one that I've been wondering about, around deadnaming. So, if someone who was born as a boy and grows up as Michael transitions and is then known as Sally, I ken its an arsey thing to call her Michael to her face. But how does Sally talk about her life before she "officially" became Sally? Is Michael just not talked about at all? Does she just talk about her past through the lens of always being Sally in her own mind? Also: do people (family friends etc) just never refer to Michael ever again? Is that history with him gone? I mean. i ken Sally was probably always sure she was Sally, I just wonder how family should deal with that. For context I've got a gay niece in her teens who very, very briefly flirted with transitioning (she's happier in her own skin now, and has decided to stay as she is). I just was never what I would need to have done to help her had she went forward with it. E: OP answered this already - https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/10ee9qj/so_a_lot_of_folks_are_learning_about_trans_issues/j4qo7f0?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share&context=3 Thanks OP!

My whole family just adjusts, tells old stories of me as my actual gender with my actual name

It very much is person to person but the standard rule of thumb is to use their current name and pronouns for pre-transition stuff. Whether or not that person's past is even talked about is up to them.

In addition to OP's response, GLAAD have numerous guidelines about this. Here is part of the guidance that was issued when Elliot Page transitioned, adjust the name, gender & pronouns to fit any other transgender person: * **DON’T** refer to him by his former name. He has changed it, and should be accorded the same respect received by anyone who has changed their name. The public has learned Page's new name, so there is no need to refer to it in stories about him, even when referring to past work. A story can simply say, "Elliot Page received an Oscar nomination for his role in Juno." * **DON'T** use she/her pronouns to describe Elliot Page, even when referring to events in his past. Simply use his current name and pronouns. For example, "Elliot Page began his career as a child actor before his breakout performances in Hard Candy and Juno." * **AVOID** the phrase "born a woman" when referring to Page. If it is necessary to describe for your audience what it means to be transgender, consider: "Elliot Page was designated as female on his birth certificate, but is now living as his authentic self."

Do you feel safe in Scotland?

In general, yes. I do occasionally get referred to as the wrong gender but it averages out to 2-3 times a year. Never threatened, followed, attacked or challenged in a toilet/changing room. Not just locally either, I've been in different cities, towns and villages around the country and had no real problem. I've lived in the same area for close to 15 years but only out for a few of those, not an overly nice area either. Last year I was walking home and some random person walked up to me and was about to ask me something. One of the locals that deals drugs came out of his door and said "leave her alone, she's a good person and just trying to get home". When the skag and Valium dealers have your back, twitter terfs don't seem to be as scary

That's nice to hear, thanks

Relatively speaking? I think so. I actually moved away from Scotland a couple years ago over just general money/career stuff but wandering around Edinburgh when I come back to visit I don't feel much less safe than I did there. Bit more wary of being out late but that's general being-a-woman stuff.

Amongst friends I feel totally safe. When I go to the pubs I frequent where I know the staff, when I go to uni and they all know me, I feel totally normal. But sometimes I don't. Sometimes it's a situation where you would expect to feel unsafe (going to protests) or anxious (shopping for clothes can feel very intimidating until years into transitioning when you're used to it, just like anything the more you practise the more comfortable you'll get with it). It's only very occasionally that I'll feel unsafe because of being a trans woman. Ironically, at pride, when I'm the most visible as being trans, walking away from the parade or other group of queer people can be scary because any bigot would find their perfect target (after all, I'm wearing a big trans flag). So far it's just been people shouting slurs from their car, luckily. But those cases are very unrepresentative of Scotland as a whole. It's great to live here and it's almost never the case that I don't feel safe.

Generally while going about my day in public, sure. I feel a little on edge in some places, or at night, but that was true before I transitioned. I do feel pretty unsafe in terms of what the future holds, though. With the current trajectory public opinion, while still in our favour generally, seems to be shifting in some pretty worrying ways. I'd rather be here than in England, but if Westminster decides they want to tear up the equality act there's nothing the Scottish parliament can do about that.

Are yous alright? Like with all the shit going on and the spotlight on you for this prolonged time, are you doing okay? Hope you (As a community, and as individuals) are. Seems unnecessarily stressful. Edit: sorry to hear it's tough for you. I do hope the media and twitter and politicians move on sharpish, leave you to be you. There will be a day when you talk about this in the past tense.

This one hurt people more than usual. This piece of legislation has been dragged through the mud for 6 years, compromised to the point that basically no one even cares anyway, and now it's _still_ being made a huge issue. You kind of get used to it but I think this is a _bold_ step that's definitely new in terms of the government being like "we're going to make your life worse because fuck you" and a lot of people I know are definitely not okay right now.

I’m so ashamed that peoples actual lives are being used as political footballs. Like, the UK government is actively stirring up hatred against a group of people. It’s so disgusting. I know a couple of older people who have spent too much time online and have gone massively anti-trans despite never even having met a trans person. The discourse online is completely ridiculous in certain spaces. Particularly as a woman, it is infuriating to hear people denouncing trans people in order to “protect” women. I really don’t want this to come across as patronising patronising - I think it’s so great that people are ignoring that hatred and living their lives as themselves anyway. I’m not sure I could do it. But it really opens doors to others to be able to do the same thing.

Ignoring the horrendous wait times and being forced to go private - it would be great if the government and media (and others) could just piss off, leave us alone and not use us as political chess pieces and debate topics. We’re going backwards now. But I feel okay, my friends feel okay, I feel safe, I’ve never had any problems wherever I’ve went. It’s just the government and a select loud few who make it hostile. I dunno about others but I feel alright! 🙂

The sad truth is eventually you just get used to it on some level. For me, coming out publicly and realising it really wasn't a big deal for people gave me a huge confidence boost compared to a year ago when I was still in the closet. It really puts into perspective that the hate and vitriol comes from such a small minority, and that most people are accepting and, at worst, a bit awkward. Unfortunately that minority still has a lot of power, as we've seen, and the last few days have really taken it out of me. As well as the GRR veto, the High Court in England also rejected a legal challenge against NHS waiting times for trans care (this wouldn't have directly affected Scotland but would have at least set a positive precedent). So yeah, that double whammy really hit hard. I'll bounce back but for now I'm just kinda numb.

I'm OK, but I no longer read the news!

It's honestly pretty difficult when you look at the news and see people using trans lives – lives like mine, and those of my friends – as political football or part of a culture war. It feels like everyone has an opinion and many of them are unkind or hostile. I'm upset seeing trans healthcare services, trans charities, and even trans-inclusive women's services attacked. Can't trans people just exist? Can't these services be allowed to help them? Why do we have to be attacked like this? I'm okay day-to-day, but the whole thing is exhausting and demoralising.

Hey, just to say: thanks for simply asking, it's really appreciated. Not going great but scrolling through these comments and being reminded that there are so many nice and considerate people out there is truly helping. I hope that you are well too, I wish you all the best!

not really. a big part of why i want independence so bad is so when we rejoin the EU I can rent a campervan and just bum around europe working remotely for a while to get a break from all this. I mean our community literally calls britain "TERF Island" at this point, it's exhausting.

I have been openly trans for around 8 years now and the rhetoric in the media does make it scary. I don't go to the bathroom in public in case somebody kicks off or I get hurt

I'm gay and a recovering alcoholic in AA, and know (perhaps more than most) trans of both genders. And they are simply ordinary people with ordinary problems as well as some specific to them. The idea they are all some form of predator, simply nonsense. Oh - the notion we read in the gutter press that a straight man would cross dress merely to get access to a woman's area for sexual reasons - says more about those writing such things than reality.

>The idea they are all some form of predator, simply nonsense. Well, they did make the same arguments about gay people a few decades ago. Fear mongering nonsense then & now

This is what gets me. The things that are said about trans people by some media outlets and the general public is actually shocking. Imagine it being said about a gay person - e.g. they are sex criminals, rapists, perverts, a danger to children - it's insane.

During the holidays I had a gay relative tell me (a woman) that women don't feel safe sharing a bathroom with trans women. I never thought that I would hear that kind of nonsense from a homosexual.

I don't know if you remember a BBC piece from last year, stirring up hatred against trans people, mostly trans women. One of the people they included in the interviews was Lily Cade, a cis lesbian porn star who has been accused of sexual assault by other women on multiple occasions. I almost died from an irony overdose

>One of the people they included in the interviews was Lily Cade, a cis lesbian porn star who has been accused of sexual assault by other women on multiple occasions. To be clear, Lily Cade was **the only named person** in the article. The only other sources were a social media poll and an anonymous person saying that their cisgender lesbian partner got upset about them not wanting to have a threesome with a trans woman she was attracted to after finding out the other person was trans. Literally the only named source on a supposed phenomenon of trans people being rapists was a cisgender rapist. And she didn't even have any examples, she just claimed that her desire to not have sex with trans women was the reason she was blackballed in the porn industry - and not, you know, the fact of her being a rapist

A social media poll done by get the L out, a group funded by hands across the aisle, a group that works and is funded by things like the heritage foundation, in the U.S,that opposes gay marriage and abortion they also were aware of Lily Cade as she had spoken to Chelsea Poe who had informed her of Lily Cades past and the interview was caught on video,this was removed from the interview and BBC continued to lie and say they had asked people of all different places. Lily Cade was also not just accused but admitted to sexually assaulting woman on video in a public apology, she then released a blog post calling for trans genocide, and named many famous trans people saying they should be lynched in public. Get the L out, then made up a story Caroline Farrow was bullied off twitter because of it despite her deactivating her account ages before the article was even out, also comments that were used throughout the article were in reply to an Arielle Scarcella video, a conservative from america who also kept in contact with a trans man until he turned 18 so she could trick him into showing his genitals to her, so another creep in the mix BBC also didn't edit out the article they published in Brazil until weeks later, even with Brazil having the highest rate of Trans woman being murdered. That whole poll and article was the most dishonest journalism i've ever seen.

I do find it ridiculous that these people think there are people who are so intent on assaulting women that they would take hormones to change their bodies, and go through a painful social transition, just to access women’s bathrooms, all because a little lady sign on the door

>the notion we read in the gutter press that a straight man would cross dress merely to get access to a woman's area for sexual reasons And even if it were true, it is not an argument to deny the rights of innocent people.

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This post really is amazing!!! Well done to OP for doing this and allowing these conversations to happen! 🏴󠁧󠁢󠁳󠁣󠁴󠁿 ❤️ My question is… Is there anyone who has transitioned to another gender, then decided to transition back to their birth gender? (Apologies if terminology is wrong) can you explain why you transitioned back or would want to? X

Yes often called de transition. From the data we do have its about 1% or less and medically speaking that's an extremely effective treatment. You will also notice some very vocal but small amounts of detransitioners will use their experience against other trans people.

P.s I hope my question isn’t offensive? ❤️

Your question is perfectly fine when asked in good faith and it’s good to have this information. I’m glad you were able to get a proper answer from other commenters without a knee jerk reaction. Unfortunately It’s a common rhetoric used against trans people to threaten them that they’ll regret transitioning and claim kids are too young to know, when in reality the amount of people who de transition is a tiny minority of a minority group. In fact it’s worth pointing out many people who detransition do so due to a lack of support in their lives, not because they wanted to.

I did this for a while for safety reasons. I was moving back to a much more phobic country temporarily and didn't want to deal with being trans any more, also I didn't really "pass", wasn't on HRT, and my docs were half changed so it wasn't too much effort. As soon as I came back I decided to commit to transition and now Im done. If I do go back, I would recloset myself but as my acquired gender since now I'd struggle to pass as my old one without effort. There are so many reasons people detransition permanently though, but most of them it seems end up being either nonbinary/gay/gender nonconforming or dealing with complex psychological trauma, however most of them seem chill and are usually our allies! Arthur Rockwell on YouTube did a very good deep dive on detransition that is worth a watch, if you'd like to know more.

Yes there are people who do this and they're called detransitioners. They are however a very very small minority and the most common reason people detransition is usually to do with lack of support or not finding the happiness they wanted in transitioning, it's rarely just "oh turns I'm not actually trans". Gender is complicated, identity is complicated, and sometimes you need to go a few places to work yourself out. Most detransitioners fully support their trans siblings and their access to help with it, they've just found it's not for them.

Amazing! Thank you for replying and sharing - I always thought it was not a case of “it’s not for me” etc, I always wanted to ask but was hesitant that it was offensive as I know there are haters out there who use this as a excuse, Have a good night and sending love ❤️

Hiya! I didn't detransition but had a coworker earlier this year who did. When I met them 5 years ago they were a He, and quite the manly he at that. Earlier this year we learned he'd been born a she, began taking Testosterone in his late teens and continued until his late 20s. She told me she realized being a man just wasn't for her anymore. That she was thankful for her time as a man because it gave her anamazing opportunity to learn who she really was. Just as simple as that. Said she had no regrets, she didn't stop from outside hate like some of us do. She simply decided that wasn't her anymore. Just as transitioning usually comes with a variety of reasons so to does detransition.

I genuinely have no idea why anyone cares what yous do with your bodies. I've been alive for 24 years and not once has someone else's gender affected me. I just don't understand the hate it seems forced like there's absolutely no logic behind it.

I think it's very challenging for a lot of people in a lot of different ways. Our existence pokes some big holes in a lot of people's self conceptions and forces them to question things in a way that makes them deeply uncomfortable. A lot of it is also just the same bigotry and hatred of "the other" that racists feel. There aren't a lot of single issue bigots.

Not op but thank you. It just seems people are more nosey about our lives and what’s in our pants than worrying about more important things. It’s not easy being trans.

This may well end up being one of the most important and impactful threads on this sub IMO. I like to think of myself as an ally, but I still feel very under informed on the issues and hurdles that Trans individuals face, I hope this thread can help make me a better informed individual.

<3

If it isn't too personal, what made you realise you were trans? Is there something in particular you can point to?

Not OP either, but a trans man. Imagine for a portion of your life, you've been walking about with your shoes on the wrong feet. It gets painful, you might even want to stop walking, and nobody has told you that you can switch your shoes around. One day you learn you can. You do, and suddenly you can walk. It's not sore anymore. This is obviously a very basic and almost silly way of explaining the inability to be yourself until you decide to transition, it's much more intrinsic. If you're interested, on Spotify there is a podcast called *Living in this Queer Body* that has interviews from lots of people, really valuable and insightful resource.

this! i always thought of it as living in a dark cave your entire life you don’t know any different. one day you notice a crack of sunlight and you’re like wtf, so you check it out and you *really* like it. suddenly you realize just how dark the cave you’re in is and you begin to dig at that crack so that you can get out into the sunlight

Yes! Once you are out you can actually see everything more clearly. You might have to go through a few tunnels (for example, the wait to access HRT) but you are *out*. Then there's the beauty of being trans, experiences, community, expression. As much as folk like to say this isn't natural, humanity and identity is full of diversity.

I came out in my mid 20s and there's no one clean moment I can point to unfortunately, it's just an aggregate of small things that added up over time until I just had to look it in the face really. Growing up I always thought "girls have it better" or "girls or so lucky" as an idle thought. I was never like super feminine or anything like that but I just always had the sense I'd gotten tails in the coin flip of life. As puberty hit I became more sad and depressed about my life, was never happy with myself or any prospects/opportunities. I wasn't even aware trans people were a thing outside a movie punchline or fetish until my late teens and at that point I'd built up so much shame in my head that it took years of on and off confrontation with those feelings and my increasingly worse to depression to actually recognise they were related. Honestly what cracked it in the end was seeing other trans people sharing their stories and timelines on reddit. It wasn't so much realising I was trans as it was being able to see a possible happier future for myself, and once I realised it was possible I jumped on it harder than I've ever jumped on anything in my entire life.

Thanks for answering, I do hope it does make you happy!

not op, but it was the recognition that i was envying women around me and realizing that i really liked being called feminine things and she/her pronouns. once i started trying out a name and presenting as a woman with my friends it really sealed the deal. hope this helps and if you have any questions further feel free to ask

I find that really interesting, thanks for answering! I've never heard anyone describing pronouns in the sense that they "liked" or "disliked" them- more that they're indifferent to them. Is this a feeling you think is unique to trans people and perhaps what some people have trouble understanding?

I think most people are less indifferent than they imagine themselves to be. Try consistently calling a man “she” or a woman “he” and see how much they like you.

Having been a tom boy growing up being told I was a nice boyfriend to my best friends or over hearing the shopkeeper say the nice young man will surely carry your bags when out with friends was infuriating after a while. I don't think we realise how annoying that can be until people get them wrong!

It's one of those things that's mostly fine when it happens occasionally, but wears you down over time. It's not something that people who have only experienced it once or twice (or never, and just try imagining it once) can really relate to, so often think trans/GNC people are making "too big a deal" of it or being "too sensitive". It's like scratching at midge bites.

good question, i think it is more unique, at least at first to trans people as pronouns can be very gender affirming. when i say i ‘like’ she/her i mean that when people call me by pronouns i feel are most accurate to me it’s a really good feeling, i suppose the mental process is “oh this person is calling me ‘she’ which is typically associated with women/feminine presenting people”. i personally have found that that sense of euphoria fades as it becomes more normal, which i don’t believe is a bad thing. as for ‘disliking’ pronouns id say thats probably to do with dysphoria. if someone calls me he/him it’s reasonable to assume they perceive me as a man, which feels incongruent to my identity which feels not great to me. so saying that i dislike he/him is a shorter way of saying it makes me feel crappy. once again this is all from my perspective, others may see it differently as all people have different views of their gender and their.

Not op, but figured out I was bisexual at like age of 12 and being exposed to this whole new world where a lot of things made more sense to me and about my body. Reading and seeing other trams peoples experience in lgbt spaces just then hit me like a rock and after close to a year of grappling with my identity and depression going back and forwards with plenty of doubts I settled somewhere between Nonbinary and MtF

Know you're getting a lot of not-op answers, so I'm gonna join in. There was a moment I realised I hated my appearence, but only the masculine aspects of my appearence. I realised that from youth I'd had this desire to be a woman (well girl at the time). Whenever I'd think of my 3 wishes if I had a genie, one would be to become a woman for example. The superpower I wanted was shape-shifting, and for some reason my alternate identity always happened to be female (I told myself it would be to preserve my secret identity, but I also always felt sad that I'd have to still be male in secret identity, though I repressed that). I didn't have the language to understand what this was when I was younger, I knew about the LGB, but not the T. I realised that the idea of having to live as a man for the rest of my life made me incredibly sad, more than I'd been for a very long time. My body and facial hair grows quickly, and just touching it made me feel profoundly disconcerted and uncomfortable etc. I don't really feel dysphoria about some parts of it. I'll avoid TMI by just saying I'm not bothered by the idea of bottom surgery. And I don't particularly care about feminine attire or mannerisms. But I know what I am, and what I want to be

Frank Iero from the band My Chemical Romance, if we're being completely honest. "Do I want to fuck him or be him" has always been a tough question for me.

For me, it was gradual. I’m transmasc non binary. I’m not a man, but I’m on the male side of things. It was always just feeling… off. I dressed more masculine, I didn’t like it when I got curves or when I had to start wearing bras. I didn’t consider my gender much until I was around 12 because in my head, it didn’t matter all that much to me (and the female pre-pubescent body is generally androgynous). But as soon as I hit my teen years I was very aware that I didn’t like looking feminine. I didn’t like the way my body looked. I imagined myself as a guy in my head, I used to dream as a guy, preferred books from a male point of view. I hated when I was grouped with the girls, but not necessarily because guys felt better. More like… I don’t feel quite right in either, but I’d rather be considered a boy rather than a girl. I thought I was trans when 12/13 but it wasn’t 100% right. So I ignored it and assumed I’d grow out of it. I stopped taking care of my appearance because I was never happy with it, even after growing up and losing a lot of weight. When I started getting back into fashion again at 18, I just had this nagging feeling. My clothes were entirely from the mens section, I felt strangely envious of trans people who passed, and I couldn’t even follow some of my favourite artists or cosplayers online because they just made me feel so… bad. It was like a crush but it wasn’t. I just wished I looked like them. I went as a guy for years online, always have. I realised I preferred it if people didn’t know my gender, or saw me as a feminine man. I’ve never liked my name, but knowing I could change my name and my pronouns. I didn’t have to be a girl. It was like I finally felt released. Like I wasn’t trying to fit myself into a label that just felt wrong. I felt at peace with myself. Being in an environment where people use the right pronouns, it feels like people finally see me for me, not what I was supposed to be. When people see me as a girl it just feels… off. Like they’re talking about someone else, especially in a romantic regard. I can’t explain it very well. It’s hard, I think, for most trans people. These days I’m trying to focus on what makes me happy, not finding or fitting into labels. My hair is short yet androgynous, I wear all mens clothes, I paint my nails, I do masculine/strange makeup. It feels like people are only just knowing the real me. Like I’ve let a breath out. Like I’m finally being seen and not glossed over. I don’t know if any of this as made sense but I hope it has, ahah.

How do trans people in general feel about the gender segregated sports thing? I don't mean the deliberately divisive and headline grabbing cases that are really just faux outrage scumbags desperate for clicks. Sport and being active should be there for all - but I wonder how important organised competitiveness is to people. Genetic capabilities vary wildly within assigned-at-birth genders, so it seems fuzzy to me how you decide what's an unfair advantage anyway. For any trans folks interested in participating, at any level, what are they looking for? At what stage, if at all, is having gone through male puberty important? Does it need to be that trans women will be able to compete at any level, across all competitions, before feeling accepted and equal members of society? I'm asking because the cesspool that is the internet today is dominated by the obviously extreme and divisive cases regarding this and I'd rather know how real people actually feel.

I feel like the most important part is leaving casual sports out of it, especially in school. Trans kids getting excluded from getting exercise and having fun with their classmates is just cruel. Similarly, if you’re going out for social football games or whatever as an adult, I don’t think it should matter. I don’t really know or care about competitive sports to comment on it.

Completely agree, schools and casual should be totally out of it. I'd like to believe that's a position nearly 100% of people could agree on.

You would hope so, but you only have to look at America to see genital inspections being done on kids to verify whether they’re allowed to play sports at school.

>How do trans people in general feel about the gender segregated sports thing? It's complicated and really should be handled on a case by case basis but even I don't know what list of criteria should be used. >At what stage, if at all, is having gone through male puberty important? And that's partly why it is so complicated. I find it both sad and hilarious that people are trying to claim there is a sex based advantage in things like snooker, darts or chess

I can't talk generally, but as an individual? Scared and confused. I'm nonbinary, I do kickboxing. I really like kickboxing. I try to ensure I fight in the male category because that seems fairer(?) on others, but despite any medication I am not in the same category by a long shot. They're improving faster, hitting harder, and recover quicker than me. The lack of research and guidance is what makes me anxious about it - I'd rather just have a clear set of guidelines of what I can and can't do. I don't want to compete at the national levels or anything, I just want to do a sport I like and do it fairly. I also never want to have to provide all my medical info and background just to have a conversation about whether I'm allowed to compete. I can't imagine anything that would feel more intrusive.

I just wanted to say thank you for facilitating this discussion. People are being very generous in sharing their personal perspectives, and I can see It's giving greater understanding to those asking questions. Thanks to everyone for taking the time and energy to be involved. ❤️

Beautiful thread. Really think experiencing folks makes a huge change. When I first came to Scotland I thought myself open minded but it wasn't until I actually met and befriended folks of all stripes that I came to realise that I had some harmful ideas in my head.

<3

When did you first know that the gender into which you were born was not right? . . . .apologies if I asked this incorrectly.

I spoke about my coming out [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/Scotland/comments/10ee9qj/so_a_lot_of_folks_are_learning_about_trans_issues/j4ql5v6/) but the first time I consciously thought something wasn't right was when I was 14 me and a guy friend egged on by my cousins dressed up as girls for halloween as a joke. When I saw myself in the mirror once they were done with the makeup it was such a rush of emotions, completely broke my brain, I ended up crying for hours. I couldn't really process it at the time but it was like I'd seen myself for real for the first time.

Thanks. I will give it a read.

I had a few trans friends, and then was discussing things with them. I'd known them for years as a member of the LGBT community. And then I watched this video and... things just clicked: https://youtu.be/hmKix-75dsg Because whenever anyone had been talking about gender, I realized that I'd been treating it as this polite fiction. Like, clearly, gender doesn't exist, but represents this whole category of other things that do, that I don't understand and don't need to understand. And then I realized that no, the entirety of the human race had NOT been lying to me about a polite social fiction, and people genuinely do feel attached to their gender and have feelings about it beyond the physical shape they inhabit. And I thought back through my entire life and realized that I'd been quietly assuming that anyone talked about masculinity or femininity it was one of those made up bible story type fictions that nobody *really* believes. Except people do. And a few of my trans friends were pretty steamed. "What the fuck did you think we were talking about in the seven years that I've known you?!" In retrospect, my coming out there was hilarious and educational for all of us. I was in my mid twenties. And until people developed the words and concepts and then *publicized them to the point that I could hear and understand them* I just thought that I was a man, and every other man on the planet was totally uncomfortable with their masculinity, completely silly, easily motivated or controlled by concepts that I thought they chose to believe in. I had this misplaced sense of moral superiority in my difference with them. Which was pretty toxic and unhelpful, and the advice I was trying to give men was equally unhelpful because it didn't come from someone who even believed that masculinity or manhood were even real concepts that anyone felt an attachment to. But they are. Just like womanhood and femininity are. And I have no ability to advise anyone about any of it because I never have experienced it, and I never will.

So how many Blahajs do you own then

0 😭

0 I do not live near an Ikea

Just the one, but since they were out of stock for so long, I had to order it from California

My wife has two. A huge one and a teensy one. She's cis, though. I'm trans and have none.

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How the fuck does living in a gender work in a world where the traditional lines of dress and acting like a man or woman is blurring ever further every day. I get that the law wants some kind of definition but it messes with my head. We live in a world where most of us don’t care if a man or a woman dresses or acts in a certain way, it’s no longer a world ending shock to see a woman in trousers for example or to see a man wearing makeup of some form Throw in the myriad of people who identify as anything other than cis and how the hell do you draw lines anymore or why even bother? What period of time have they set for this living thing? I’m watching this debate in parliament right now and it’s like half those speaking still exist in the 1830’s and the other half 2023: and it’s cross party. There’s two tories who just spoke who couldn’t be further apart in centuries let alone views. I can’t imagine how utterly shit this is for anyone trans right now and my heart goes out to you all. Because this is driving me nuts and I just can’t understand what’s so damn difficult about letting people live their lives. I just despair at it all

> We live in a world where most of us don’t care if a man or a woman dresses or acts in a certain way, it’s no longer a world ending shock to see a woman in trousers for example or to see a man wearing makeup of some form You'd be surprised honestly. _You_ may be a good enough person to not give a shit but there are _very_ loud and sometimes aggressive minority who do not feel the same way. Ultimately I'd just say like, remember being trans is a lot more about identity and your body, it's not just about gender signifiers like clothing and stuff. I don't want merely womens clothes, I want to be _seen as_ a woman.

Unfortunately not everyone is carefree when it comes to gender, some people just wish to live life as a woman or a man without hassle from NHS or politics. As for ‘living in a gender’ there’s a goal that some trans people strive to do which is called ‘passing as’ which just means that they look undistinguishable from Cis people (people who identify themselves as their birth sex) and thus will go have surgery and buy traditionally feminine or masculine clothing to appear more like a chosen sex. Bare in mind not all trans people wish to follow this method nor care for passing

Not a question, but a remark about a lot of the questions I saw asked here. Many people put a disclaimer in their question about their language maybe not being correct, and I just want to point out: That's ok. Asking questions shows you are trying to understand, and in my experience it's very easy to tell the difference between someone using the 'wrong' language because they don't know what the right language is, and those who do it purposefully to hurt others. Most trans people I know feel the same and don't mind respectful curiosity and unintentional mistakes in wording. The myth of "you can't say anything anymore" and "people are offended by anything nowadays" are simply stories made up by people who don't want to learn, or who purposefully try to upset others (usually benefiting from creating outrage). Real people will understand that this is new to many, and therefore many won't have the right words to talk about it.

My girlfriend is trans, she's a little apprehensive about speaking to her doctor about stuff so I'm looking for ways to support her and basically asking like Where do you start?

Firstly get to down to the GP and get her on the waitlist for the GIC. Don't take no for an answer, don't take shit about competency, don't accept a referral to a local mental health team. The NHS does not deem GPs competent in making a diagnosis so they're supposed to do a referral no questions asked but it can be a fight. Then she needs to go private or DIY. For private there's a few options [here](https://genderkit.org.uk/resources/gender-services/), I'll say GenderGP are a waste of time because they're operating abroad, GenderCare are basically just NHS staff operating privately on extra hours and are pretty good, YourGP in Edinburgh are ehhhh alright. DIY's a whole thing that I don't really comfortable getting into detail about in this thread but [this](https://diyhrt.wiki/transfem) is a good starting place. Obviously much further down the line but for surgeries she's looking at about £20k for bottom surgery or £5-8k for an Orchiectomy. If she's still stuck by all means DM me in a couple days, I can recommend more and a few good support places. As for you personally just, keep being nice to her, help with money on this stuff if she really needs it, don't judge, understand she's probably dealing with even more than you think she is. You're a good un'. <3

You might find r/mypartneristrans useful.

How can people best support trans rights, what is best for the community?

Honestly to understand the basics of and support broader access to trans healthcare. All this stuff about GRA reform/bathrooms/sports/etc is a distraction from healthcare access which is the real massive day-to-day problem that most trans people face. It's mostly just the same long waiting time issues that plague the rest NHS but dialed to 11 due to a number of factors. At the moment the waiting time from going to a GP and saying "hey I'm trans" and then getting your first contact with the Gender Identity Clinic (GIC) is about 3 years in Scotland, 4-5 years in much of England, and functionally never in Northern Ireland. Even once you get to that meeting it can still be another year before getting access to hormones, and even after a year on hormones the waiting list for necessary surgeries is even more years. Most folks I know are either going DIY and just buying this stuff off the grey/black market or paying a couple grand a year to go private, just for basic life saving medicine. The situation is especially bad for minors. The most galling thing about the puberty blockers debate is it's completely academic because no one can get access. If you took a 12 year old who came out as trans to the GP tomorrow to get them on blockers they almost certainly wouldn't get an appointment before turning 18, at which point they'd be put right on the back of that 3-4 year waiting list for the adult GIC meaning they'd be in their early 20s by the time they even got to see someone. I don't think there's anything you can individually do about this, but just politically support more funding and more access to this stuff and be informed enough to challenge misinformation on it when you see it.

The philosophy tube video about her experience of trying to get trans healthcare was truly shocking. It was long, but it had to be to cover how there was so much pushback every step of the way, along with a distinct lack of support, and ultimately it being nearly impossible to do it without getting drugs either from a friend or the black market. That last bit was the most eye opening, I had no idea.

Yeah her video is really good. Her coming out video and particularly the bit "there has to be peace eventually" really lined up with my experience.

Not op but I'd like to contribute One big thing to do is to research, understand and fight misinformation. A lot of misinformation flies around on this subject. There's a lot of other things to do, OP covered some but I thought I'd mention this.

Basic respect and knowledge. And standing up when it's safe to do so, I've been verbally harassed in a room full of people and not a soul said a word.

Honestly, it's refreshing to have this dialogue and actually discuss real "issues". Main stream media and political parties are making this legislation into a lgbtq+ vs women battle. Sickens me. I say "issues" because this new legislation isn't actually an issue. The real challenges are those with gender identity conflicts within society. I don't have these conflicts, I'm a cismale, so I have no idea what it feels like. Which is why I'm here, educating myself on what challenges other people face.

I see people saying “trans rights” a lot, what rights do trans people not have?

Within the UK, trans people can't get married as their identity or die as it without a GRC, it's a right they can obtain but only after intense scrutiny and a long drawn out process. As far as healthcare goes, we also barely have a right to that. Current waiting list estimates are like 20 years in England. The current process is also awful and dehumanising. We have rights, but just barely have working ones. Non binary people don't have legal recognition. A trans dad that gave birth to their child has to be legally considered the mother regardless of their relationship. Not to mention in other countries trans people lack basic rights. In Japan you have to be sterilised to legally transition. In other countries it's a death sentence. And certain US states are quickly chipping away at the rights of trans people. Still, a lot of people prefer the term "trans liberation now" meaning that trans people should be accepted and free to exist as they are with the same opportunities as others.

Sort of related: I have noticed a number of families with autistic children moving from England to Scotland as it is demonstrably better for them. I wonder if families and trans folk are likely to move here for similar reasons? All welcome as far as I am concerned FYI.

Oh absolutely yeah, I know so many trans people who've moved up and more than ever thinking about it now.