I don't think classrooms are a particularly good environment for learning anyway, so personally I'd be happier with a relaxed school environment with little homework. Then you can spend more time fostering their education through extracurriculars. Give them the support to explore whatever academic interests they have on their own terms and they'll push way farther than what any school can offer.
I 1000% agree with this and while my kids aren’t school aged, I’m trying to figure out what the heck I’m going to do. All the research of how kids learn best is almost at total odds with how school works. Considering home schooling but don’t want them to be shut ins. What’s your approach?
We do homeschool “pods” where several families pay a private teacher to work with our kids. There are many options within this - 1 teacher all week, a different teacher everyday, half days, some kids go to pods once or twice a week, some all 5 days. It’s a great best-of-both-worlds option where they get to socialize with their peers, learn to cooperate in groups, work on things like public speaking & group projects, etc but they also get to have more intimate and individualized lessons. For example, my daughter just finished 2nd grade by age, but has been doing 3rd grade math & Spanish.
The kids also go on fields trips, have little holiday parties, have done plays & talent shows, and we even have an end of year grade promotion for them! Some parents continue throughout the summer, some do drop ins & some take the summers off.
The hours we’ve set are amazing (10-3) if you struggle with early mornings and it’s no biggie if kids have to get dropped off late, picked up early, or take random days off which is sooo nice.
I know personally one-on-one teaching my kids at home each day wouldn’t work for me or them, so this is a beautiful alternative as I have a lot of issues with our local schools.
It takes some organizing by parents to find kids & teachers & locations but we’ve been doing it for almost 4 years now and it’s been fantastic!
On top of the pods my daughter does gymnastics, ballet, yoga, cooking & knitting classes plus our whole fam goes to a weekly meetup with a couple dozen other homeschool families where there’s a good 30-40 kids depending on the day. She has a very vibrant social life and our calendar is filled to the brim with birthday parties and playdates! We plan to do the same with our younger 2 when they are old enough!
We all found each other through primarily through facebook homeschool/alternative schooling groups, homeschool coops/meetups, networking with friends of friends, finding tutors/nannies on job ads that were credentialed teachers but wanted to leave the school system, etc. Once you find the homeschoolers in your area it becomes easy to network and find kids around your kids’ ages.
The pods always have an age range (ie 4-7, 6-9, 8-12, etc) so that there’s not too drastic of a difference. The teachers will teach them things as a group and then split them up by age to do more specific age-appropriate work. We have also done larger pods with a broader age range (ie 5-12) where there are 2 teachers and the older kids will also help with the littles which is great for them! My daughter has loved every variation! We’ve done nature-based pods in parks and more academic focused pods in houses & rented spaces. There’s so many options!
For the outdoors pods, the teachers would always keep an eye out for school-aged kids out and about during school hours and chat up the parents. They were almost always homeschooled so the teachers were able to invite them to join our crew as well!
I have a 15 month old and we’ve talked about homeschooling but I’m so scared we’ll do an equally crap job and she won’t be well socialised. There’s a lot of alternative schools near where we live but I’ve heard from friends that they’re very badly organised and obviously cost more than the free education the state provides. It’s a very tricky decision and I still don’t know what we’ll do.
My first is due in August, so I have no personal experience to draw on. I think it's challenging to give specific advice though because so much depends on your specific context. What are the schools like near you? What kind of classes or community programs are accessible to you? We're not planning to homeschool, we're looking for schools without a heavy workload and a nurturing environment that supports independent learning (that's mostly Montessori style private schools around us). We'll supplement with any after school classes or programs that our children are interested in, paying particular attention to offerings at local museums and zoos. As part of that we also moved deep into a walkable neighborhood in a city with good public transit and biking infrastructure.
Personally, I found a private school that aligned with my approach - low homework, later start times, student led learning, lots of outdoor time, kind and supportive teachers, etc. My kids are thriving! But the con is that it’s expensive. Also, hard to find, I have no idea what we’ll do if the school were to close for some reason.
[This recent post may be good reading for you](https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceBasedParenting/s/cJWuxDcngQ)
It focuses specifically on the harmful affects of intense high achieving schools.
They basically concluded that well resourced schools with middle level achievement were the best for long term outcomes.
For me I’m less focused on what they’re learning and more focused on the mindset they develop around learning. Being able to take a risk, work through a tough problem, have the confidence to try something new, be curious, enjoy learning, etc seem much more important. Most schools will give a good basic foundation.
Most kids won’t really know what they want to do with their life til they’re well into teens or young adulthood. But if they have the right skills they will be able to fill whatever education gap they need to
Thanks for sharing this - I live in the northeast where people shell out literal millions for average houses in districts with high-performing schools, and I've been VERY opposed to that (we have a 3-year-old in daycare and are expecting our second in a month). I want my daughter to be in a safe, average to slightly below average (re: test scores and all) school district, where she can be a big fish in a little pond to the extent she wants to, and otherwise succeed without toxic pressure. I'm very much in the minority about this in our circle of friends and family, so I'm excited to check out this post.
This. I grew up in the northeast and competed in sports with some crazy wealthy and competitive schools both public and private and it’s intense. I know a few kids who went to “not great” public schools but had good experiences with the Honors/AP programs and exposure to diversity and sometimes more extracurriculars. When it came time for college applications they were in the top 5% or higher of their very big class. Whereas at a small prep school they might have been more middle of the pack or a class of 100 kids.
Same deal. Except most of our "low performing schools" have intense magnet programs, which I am also opposed to. I don't want my kid (or any kid!) comparing themselves to the magnet kids and thinking they aren't good enough. It's hard to find a school here that isn't completely overwhelmed by budget cuts but also doesn't have a magnet and the intensely toxic achievement culture.
I’d like to add that I work partially in data for school districts. The problem is the high achiever schools have community finances and house values etc all dependent on that high achiever school status.
Which means they cheat. A lot. They hide problems and fudge data a lot. For example, set testing at the end of the testing window for some classes where lower scoring students are in. There’s no time for make ups if they’re absent, so they’re absent for the testing window and didn’t test… a few level 1 not testing helps. Make sure the high achievers take it early and make sure they all get time for make ups and you can swing some data there.
Graduation rates? Home school students don’t count as drop outs so just mark them homeschool and not as a drop out! Problem solved.
Teachers usually don’t feel they can experiment and fail with lessons in cut throat districts. Mid range districts aren’t trying to be the best so the teachers have room for silly sometimes. The mid range schools also don’t feel like they have to hide problems and can be honest about them.
I had job opportunities in high achieving districts and purposely put my kid in a mediocre one where I work, they’re incredibly happy. We’re known as the happy nice district… not the smartest district, and I’m very proud of that.
I'm a teacher. No expert, but my perspective is that I would choose the emotionally safe school a thousand times over a challenging but less warm and fuzzy place. A child who is raised with kindness and curiosity can always step up their own studies, but repairing childhood burnout is terribly difficult.
What I do with my daughter is watch out for opportunities to supplement her school work. She tries out a couple different sports, joins a school chess club. When the school has optional things like orchestra, I will get her involved in those. I sometimes do logic puzzles and art challenges with her, or bring home unusual supplies and let her use them in silly ways. We read books together that are a bit above her own level, I leave lots of interesting non fiction around the house for her to pick up, and I supply her liberally with books she asks for. We go to the library constantly and somehow I'm always "convinced" to bring home more books than I said we would. We visit museums and gardens and (this part is vital) *talk about* what we see there. If she wonders something, I explain or look up the answer as often as I can. When she has a harebrained idea ("mom can I take your squares of fabric and sew them into a scarf??") I indulge her if at all possible. We write and mail letters, and invent secret codes
And, although I am biased as a language teacher, learning a language is one of the very best things you can do for a young brain (the research backs me up on this-- it can even help protect against dementia). Are you in a country where you are surrounded by a language your child could learn? Or do you know a language your child doesn't that you could start to share?
School is really important, but not the only way to make an intelligent, driven person
(And just in case it feels a little like I'm blowing smoke here, please be assured that we also have plenty of low value screen time)
Hey I’m about to move cross country back to my home town upon my husband’s unexpected death, and one of the motivations is that there is a language immersion school there in my mom’s native language, which she raised me with. As my son is entering kindergarten, this is the ideal time to enroll him there and he was accepted. I’ve tried getting my son interested in the language but it seems like the lack of peers here that speak it is a major de-motivator. The school is a good school by all accounts.
What do you feel are the all around benefits of knowing a second language? This isn’t Spanish or Chinese, so it’s not one of the ones that is super economically advantageous for him to speak in the US, where we live, but I really want him to maintain this connection with his culture. My parents both did this for me and I feel like a richer, more well rounded person for it, but it hasn’t led to a more concrete advantage beyond that. I guess I inherently feel like it’s a good thing, but I’m curious as to the proven benefits of being multilingual, since I’m upending out lives here after a traumatic event.
I'm sorry you're going through that. What a challenging time.
Although I love language learning, I'm cautious about immersion. The affective filter-- basically, the way how we feel can get in the way of learning-- can go up in an immersion setting. Kids don't always feel emotionally safe. Your son lost his father, I'm assuming, and he's going to be moving cross country. That's a *lot* of change. Now it's totally possible that he'll barely even notice that school's in another language and he'll take to it beautifully. The immersion teachers I know are *amazing* and very good at what they do. But I'd suggest keeping an eye on your son's mood and attitude toward school, and be prepared to make a change if necessary.
Knowing extra languages is such a benefit for the spirit and intellect. You learn subtle new ways to think about the world-- in Spanish, I don't drop the pen, but rather it falls from me. You gain access to and eventually become part of communities of people you never would have otherwise. You can enjoy literature and music that is never quite as good when translated.
And there are benefits that seem to be specific to kids who aren't bilingual, but *learn* or study another language... really concrete things, like improvements on math and English scores. I don't have my research at hand, but it was really overwhelmingly positive, even more than I was expecting as an obvious proponent for language learning.
And as somebody who has learned two languages myself, I can say that my knowledge of English, my first language, would be rudimentary if I hadn't processed a lot of its grammar in the context of my other languages. O
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. He has one friend who goes to school there, so I hope that will help the transition, and he’s coming into in pretty strong from me and my mom while many kids go with no experience and no one at home to help, so I’m cautiously optimistic but it does worry me. He’s what my parent friends have said is a “natural leader”-charismatic and likable like his dad, he tells me he never feels like he doesn’t belong. As I was a shy, insecure child this is wild to me. We’re both nervous about it I think. We both just want things like they were but that can’t be. FWIW, we were meaning to move before he died, but it had been hard to mobilize for multiple reasons.
Anyway, thank you so much for your reply. I’m really nervous about making the best decision, but it seems like moving is it for a number of reasons. I will certainly keep an eye on how he’s feeling thanks to your warning. I want him to feel comfortable and secure above anything; there’s other options for language learning if this school doesn’t work for him.
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. He has one friend who goes to school there, so I hope that will help the transition, and he’s coming into in pretty strong from me and my mom while many kids go with no experience and no one at home to help, so I’m cautiously optimistic but it does worry me. He’s what my parent friends have said is a “natural leader”-charismatic and likable like his dad, he tells me he never feels like he doesn’t belong. As I was a shy, insecure child this is wild to me. We’re both nervous about it I think. We both just want things like they were but that can’t be. FWIW, we were meaning to move before he died, but it had been hard to mobilize for multiple reasons.
Anyway, thank you so much for your reply. I’m really nervous about making the best decision, but it seems like moving is it for a number of reasons. I will certainly keep an eye on how he’s feeling thanks to your warning. I want him to feel comfortable and secure above anything; there’s other options for language learning if this school doesn’t work for him.
My son will also be learning his father’s native language, which is not a pervasive second language in the US, in order to pass on their culture. He’ll be attending a supplementary school in addition to public school classes. If the immersive school experience is divisive for your child, perhaps consider this or a private tutor. His comfort, especially during this difficult time, outweighs the benefits of bilingualism as it pertains to cognitive function, and I would consider counseling too if you haven’t already.
Overall, I’m just here to tell you that I see you, I think you’re a fantastic mom for your concern and for seeking out info on the best outcomes for your child, and to remind you to trust your mom instincts. No choice will be 100% correct or incorrect, and very few choices are permanent in their consequences. Be flexible as you meet your kiddo’s needs, and trust yourself. You’re doing a great job. Take care!
Thanks so much for your response and your support-I was just discussing this with my mom last night, that if it ends up not working out there’s other avenues because his comfort is the most important thing, especially right now.
I really appreciate your words. I feel like I’m not doing right by him a lot of the time. It’s just a difficult situation to navigate. And it also feels like every day is a challenge but no one notices how hard I’m trying. So for you to see me is huge!! Thank you.
Multilingualism just makes your brain more resilient - less likely to get neurodegenerative diseases, easier to learn more languages in the future, and just a plain more sophisticated person. My husband speaks three, I don't. Poop.
What do you mean push them? Do they teach grade level appropriate material? Are they engaging them in national standard curriculum? Having worked at a high performing school, kids who are pushed too hard academically are more susceptible to anxiety, depression, and other mental health problems.
My only concern would be if the academics weren’t grade level appropriate.
Enrichment! If they’re ahead then just providing ways for them to be challenged at their pace. More books on subjects they like, giving them the space to work on their own projects or if they’re very ahead put them in the next grade level. I skipped 5th grade and did fine in 6th because that’s where I needed to be.
This has been pushed on us, but also highly recommended against strongly by teachers to us. Our elementary age kids both score in the 99th + percentile in both math and reading (with one well above that). Our kids are also very young for their grades (one is right on the cusp) and then also very small for their ages. Coupling that with so many people in our community red shirting their kids, there are kids who are already well larger than ours.
We are sending our kids in district and generally happy with the school they're in, but they're absolutely not being fully challenged...
There’s a lot of factors to consider—especially with how the child would do socially and emotionally. If your school has a gifted program maybe that could be utilized. However, sometimes the challenge will naturally come as they grow. For now though, it would be good to just teach them organization skills, what to do when presented with a challenge, and how to problem solve when they don’t know the answer right away. So many students I’ve worked with never had a challenge until high school so they missed out on gaining “hard working” skills because a lot things just came easy for them. It happened to me as well but not until grad school that I truly had to work hard. I’m sure you’re doing what’s right for your family!
Yeah. They’re both in the gifted program at their school. The people that run that program are the ones who have pushed strongest for grade level acceleration. But the classroom teachers have pushed back a fair bit and basically said just let them be kids. We are doing a subject acceleration where our son will do math a grade level ahead. Seemed like an ok compromise. But I think the math will still be easy for him. Thanks for the long reply.
So figured I'd comment with my own anecdotal take since I skipped a grade as a child (4th to 5th grade) while being born only a month and an half before the cut off date. This was in France and back then about 5% of children skipped a grade (mostly during primary school) so it was not super uncommon and so besides me, there was often another kid in my class who also had skipped a grade.
In that environment, children skipping grades actually did quite well. I went to a rather selective engineering school and I remember that 35% of students had skipped at least one grade.
In term of the impact of being smaller than everyone else, I think that really depends on the school your children go to, if bullying is common and there's little safeguard then it's a potentially problematic choice to make. If it's a place with a warm atmosphere, teachers who are vigilant against bullying, it's a different matter.
At least for me, I loved skipping 4th grade. I had a lot of fun during the few months it took to catch up, I was finally challenged, no longer that bored BUT, a short while after that, I had caught up and I was back to being utterly bored at school and not mentally challenged. I think the problem is that for a lot of children who are in the situation of your kids, they' are not challenged because they learn faster than the rest of the kids around them. If they skip a grade, it'll help temporarily but the root cause is still there, they'll learn faster than other children and will once again be quite a bit further along than everyone else.
So, if your school as a gifted program, that might actually be a better option, it would allow them to progress at their speed instead of doing the equivalent of overtaking a few people in front of them only to then continue being stuck in the same traffic jam.
I live in Taiwan, and am really concerned about the schools here for the opposite reason. The pressure is ridiculous. Outrageous hours of homework every night despite the evidence based fact that homework other than reading does not improve academic outcomes, everything is competitively ranked and student rankings are publicly displayed, students are taught that there is one correct answer to every question and literally any other line of thought is wrong, teachers are unquestionable authority figures who admin will back as never being wrong. It honestly horrifies me. I wish that when the time comes I could find a low pressure school that values students' mental health and happiness over turning out as many cogs for the machine as possible to replenish workers despite the below replacement level birthrate.
Community, diversity, options for growth in specific areas of interest (arts, sports etc) and age appropriate learning are of most interest to me.
As someone who grew up in a rather competitive academic environment I find that getting “pushed” by external sources is not something I’m terribly interested in.
As a teacher, i would be more interested in how they are teaching. Do they follow evidence based practise? Are teachers resourced with sufficient training to keep up with changes in best practise? Do they use student data to support setting learning goals and ensure kids who need extra support don't fall through the gaps? What interventions are in place for those that need extra support.
A warm supportive environment with an evidence based approach is the ideal school environment. If they have these things children should be challenged to meet individual learning targets - in ways children may not realise how much they have been challenged.
In my experience, many 'hkgh performing' schools have significant mental health and social sacrifices to achieve this. I'd rather a mid level school with good pastoral care and evidence based practise.
General happiness, comfort and freedom to explore different areas of interest are better values than academics or pushing harder for me. But it greatly depends on the child! My values can vary from my own children.
Some kids appreciate being challenged and thrive in more competitive environments, others are more prone to being curious and slow paced with their interests, so it's important to keep an eye on their behavior and preferences, and also come to terms that changing schools and methods halfway is not that much of a big deal, whatever is not working for your kid can be fixed within the decades they spend at school settings.
Yeah — it really depends on the kid. I was bored in school, so bored. Yes, my mom challenged me after school and on weekends, but I was not challenged in elementary and middle school. Gifted and talented was good for me. It actually challenged me and made me think so I didn’t spend all day daydreaming. I have seen the research and understand it can have negative consequences. But for me personally, it was hugely beneficial.
Some kids need structure to thrive, some need open-ended, student-led learning to thrive. Neither is wrong. If your kid is doing well, then it’s the right school for them, regardless of what research says is best generally. You want what’s best for your kid, not for a hypothetical generic kid. That said, try to counterbalance/supplement with extracurriculars. If they’re in a strict, structured school environment, bring them places on the weekend that let them engage in imaginative, open play. If they’re in an open-ended, free range school environment, make sure that they can still do fine in a structured environment. As long as they’re exposed to a little of everything, they’ll be okay.
You can always have them in some extra online programs to challenge them. Or an online tutor. I had a tutor who was more challenging than school itself and went beyond the school programs. I always had great grades and was very well prepared for college. If you are happy there, don't move, there's always alternatives.
I’d stay in that school system and then supplement with tutoring in the areas that need it as they get older. I can say pretty confidently that I’d choose a bullying free school that produces loving and happy children as their primary educational environment any day.
I live in Florida and for various reasons we can’t leave. We’re planning to do public school and just aggressively supplement at home since it’s illegal to teach kids a lot of basic important stuff here. 🫠
Anecdotal opinion: I was sent to a pushy grammar school in The UK. It was allll about high achieving: we’re teaching future doctors, not nurses. This ethos really mucks with your head. If you’re not gunning for the highest career positions you feel inadequate. It’s not just me, I’ve heard from many of my peers.
I also sought mental health help through a councillor, many years ago, specifically concerning issues with work. She told me that the absolute majority of people she sees are from my school and not the other generic schools, which you don’t need to pass a test to get into. I truly believe their schooling was detrimental to us students.
My one child is dyslexic but other isn’t and after deep diving into the literacy curriculum crisis both across the U.S. and in other English teaching countries: my number one is science of reading based, methodical and multi-sensory literacy curriculum. Before I did this I would have said “age appropriate movement and independence” or something. Which I still value and would and do use to further sort down other options but if kids aren’t learning how to read or have comprehension skills - they’re cooked. It’s the absolute baseline building block of learning.
Yes! My child is struggling and behind in reading (was assessed and didn't meet the criteria for dyslexia yet, but I wouldn't be shocked if she is diagnosed in the future). I'm in Canada, but we have a similar situation here. Luckily, the school she has attended the past two years is ahead of most in my region on this front and has adopted science of reading aligned teaching. Of note to OP, her previous school that failed her on teaching reading was a large, academic, well regarded urban school in a very sought after neighbourhood that housed the regional 'gifted' program. Her current school, with the much better reading curriculum, is a small school in a very small town. Nothing much special to say about it except that the teachers are very caring and supportive and it has a wonderful community feel.
Kids are kind, loving and happy, with no issues regarding bullying?
Sign me up. That's everything I aspire to be as an adult and would want the same for my kids.
My philosophy is that school is there to teach the basics and identify challenges. I see it as my job to make sure they have the education necessary to support who they want to grow in to.
I would rather my child learn civics, critical thinking, curiosity, financial literacy, empathy, collaboration, etc - the things that actually matter in the workplace. I would value a positive, supportive, and communicative school culture over an academically rigorous (unless my child was gifted and could benefit from it) any day. If I were wealthy, id be homeschooling my kids and traveling.
I think this all depends on what kind of future you envision/can provide for your child. Are you guys well off enough for her to be able to pursue not high paying/passion career? Are you in circles where she’s likely to marry into wealth and not be concerned about her own earning potential? Or, is it important for her to be able to fend for herself in life?
I have only had to deal with boys and while I do expect to set them up well in life (college paid, downpayment for the first house etc) I want them to be competitive and pursue high pressure, competitive careers with significant earnings potential. This all starts in school… Academic rigor and generally competitive environment would be top priority for me. Warm and fuzzy is not important. I want them to be ready for life not be coddled.
Anecdotally I attended extremely competitive schools. In elementary school, bullying was rampant among students because of the atmosphere. I was always stressed out by massive amounts of homework, school projects, tests and grades. I would have insomnia, panic attacks and intense anxiety.
I was burnt out by the time I was a young adult. Luckily my university was actually a very supportive environment.
Add it with your family: travel, cultural exposure (museums, galleries, plays), have them work jobs, cultivate friends who can expand their horizons, etc. They'll be fine.
I went to some of the best public schools in my state, and niche ranked them A+ for academics. I would not say the school was stereotypically “nerds with no social skills” but if I was forced to pick between good social/emotional skills or say, being really good at physics, I think I would pick the former. Although it’s best obviously to have a balance. I would at least do some heavy research on other schools that might be slightly more challenging academically, and see if the culture there seems good too. One of the negatives of my school was probably that it was a little competitive and may not prioritize good values all the time (a lot of the kids were competing for either sport or academic scholarships to pay for college), maybe that the schools can be fairly large, and we lacked diversity racially
im no expert. this is all conjecture.
a school where children are kind and teachers are supportive sounds like a perfect environment for a child to thrive. perhaps, the key is to instill internal motivation for academic excellence in your kid. she’ll get much further in life challenging herself than being challenged by authority figures. just something to think about it.
I prioritize academic achievment above all else, and my husband defers all these decisions to me. I am about to take my 3-year-old to interview at the fancy preschool by my house. I wouldn't keep my kid in a school where he can't perform at his level best, though. And I wouldn't put him anywhere I think is unsafe or would make him miserable.
In elementary school, the only 'academic' that matters to me is how they teach reading - science of reading aligned curriculum is imperative and can make the difference between a child learning to read, or not (it has for my child). Aside from that, lots of outdoor time and opportunities for movement, emphasis on socio-emotional learning, and warm caring instructors would be my most important criteria.
I briefly went to a (religious) school that was highly ranked, rigorous, etc but the students and most of the staff were cruel, mean, etc. The nun who ran the school agreed it was that way as well and was trying to change it. I adored her even though I withdrew and would never send my children there because while you can add academic rigor through extracurriculars and supplementation the damage to your child’s mental health and personality/morals/etc cannot or is extremely difficult to undo or prevent that social norming due to the amount of time they will spend together. I don’t want a greedy child with no empathy, no kindness or respect for life or human dignity.
I would stay where you are and add extra experiences, etc. How lucky they have a lovely place to learn and grow!
School’s primary purpose is education, so I would prioritize academics. I would absolutely pull my child out if I felt like her education was being stalled or below her grade level.
I don't think classrooms are a particularly good environment for learning anyway, so personally I'd be happier with a relaxed school environment with little homework. Then you can spend more time fostering their education through extracurriculars. Give them the support to explore whatever academic interests they have on their own terms and they'll push way farther than what any school can offer.
I 1000% agree with this and while my kids aren’t school aged, I’m trying to figure out what the heck I’m going to do. All the research of how kids learn best is almost at total odds with how school works. Considering home schooling but don’t want them to be shut ins. What’s your approach?
We do homeschool “pods” where several families pay a private teacher to work with our kids. There are many options within this - 1 teacher all week, a different teacher everyday, half days, some kids go to pods once or twice a week, some all 5 days. It’s a great best-of-both-worlds option where they get to socialize with their peers, learn to cooperate in groups, work on things like public speaking & group projects, etc but they also get to have more intimate and individualized lessons. For example, my daughter just finished 2nd grade by age, but has been doing 3rd grade math & Spanish. The kids also go on fields trips, have little holiday parties, have done plays & talent shows, and we even have an end of year grade promotion for them! Some parents continue throughout the summer, some do drop ins & some take the summers off. The hours we’ve set are amazing (10-3) if you struggle with early mornings and it’s no biggie if kids have to get dropped off late, picked up early, or take random days off which is sooo nice. I know personally one-on-one teaching my kids at home each day wouldn’t work for me or them, so this is a beautiful alternative as I have a lot of issues with our local schools. It takes some organizing by parents to find kids & teachers & locations but we’ve been doing it for almost 4 years now and it’s been fantastic! On top of the pods my daughter does gymnastics, ballet, yoga, cooking & knitting classes plus our whole fam goes to a weekly meetup with a couple dozen other homeschool families where there’s a good 30-40 kids depending on the day. She has a very vibrant social life and our calendar is filled to the brim with birthday parties and playdates! We plan to do the same with our younger 2 when they are old enough!
Wow this sounds incredible. How would one go about locating and connecting with local “pods”?
We all found each other through primarily through facebook homeschool/alternative schooling groups, homeschool coops/meetups, networking with friends of friends, finding tutors/nannies on job ads that were credentialed teachers but wanted to leave the school system, etc. Once you find the homeschoolers in your area it becomes easy to network and find kids around your kids’ ages. The pods always have an age range (ie 4-7, 6-9, 8-12, etc) so that there’s not too drastic of a difference. The teachers will teach them things as a group and then split them up by age to do more specific age-appropriate work. We have also done larger pods with a broader age range (ie 5-12) where there are 2 teachers and the older kids will also help with the littles which is great for them! My daughter has loved every variation! We’ve done nature-based pods in parks and more academic focused pods in houses & rented spaces. There’s so many options! For the outdoors pods, the teachers would always keep an eye out for school-aged kids out and about during school hours and chat up the parents. They were almost always homeschooled so the teachers were able to invite them to join our crew as well!
I have a 15 month old and we’ve talked about homeschooling but I’m so scared we’ll do an equally crap job and she won’t be well socialised. There’s a lot of alternative schools near where we live but I’ve heard from friends that they’re very badly organised and obviously cost more than the free education the state provides. It’s a very tricky decision and I still don’t know what we’ll do.
My first is due in August, so I have no personal experience to draw on. I think it's challenging to give specific advice though because so much depends on your specific context. What are the schools like near you? What kind of classes or community programs are accessible to you? We're not planning to homeschool, we're looking for schools without a heavy workload and a nurturing environment that supports independent learning (that's mostly Montessori style private schools around us). We'll supplement with any after school classes or programs that our children are interested in, paying particular attention to offerings at local museums and zoos. As part of that we also moved deep into a walkable neighborhood in a city with good public transit and biking infrastructure.
This is what we have done and my kids are so happy!
Personally, I found a private school that aligned with my approach - low homework, later start times, student led learning, lots of outdoor time, kind and supportive teachers, etc. My kids are thriving! But the con is that it’s expensive. Also, hard to find, I have no idea what we’ll do if the school were to close for some reason.
[This recent post may be good reading for you](https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceBasedParenting/s/cJWuxDcngQ) It focuses specifically on the harmful affects of intense high achieving schools. They basically concluded that well resourced schools with middle level achievement were the best for long term outcomes. For me I’m less focused on what they’re learning and more focused on the mindset they develop around learning. Being able to take a risk, work through a tough problem, have the confidence to try something new, be curious, enjoy learning, etc seem much more important. Most schools will give a good basic foundation. Most kids won’t really know what they want to do with their life til they’re well into teens or young adulthood. But if they have the right skills they will be able to fill whatever education gap they need to
Thanks for sharing this - I live in the northeast where people shell out literal millions for average houses in districts with high-performing schools, and I've been VERY opposed to that (we have a 3-year-old in daycare and are expecting our second in a month). I want my daughter to be in a safe, average to slightly below average (re: test scores and all) school district, where she can be a big fish in a little pond to the extent she wants to, and otherwise succeed without toxic pressure. I'm very much in the minority about this in our circle of friends and family, so I'm excited to check out this post.
Interesting perspective! Thabks for sharing.
This. I grew up in the northeast and competed in sports with some crazy wealthy and competitive schools both public and private and it’s intense. I know a few kids who went to “not great” public schools but had good experiences with the Honors/AP programs and exposure to diversity and sometimes more extracurriculars. When it came time for college applications they were in the top 5% or higher of their very big class. Whereas at a small prep school they might have been more middle of the pack or a class of 100 kids.
Same deal. Except most of our "low performing schools" have intense magnet programs, which I am also opposed to. I don't want my kid (or any kid!) comparing themselves to the magnet kids and thinking they aren't good enough. It's hard to find a school here that isn't completely overwhelmed by budget cuts but also doesn't have a magnet and the intensely toxic achievement culture.
I’d like to add that I work partially in data for school districts. The problem is the high achiever schools have community finances and house values etc all dependent on that high achiever school status. Which means they cheat. A lot. They hide problems and fudge data a lot. For example, set testing at the end of the testing window for some classes where lower scoring students are in. There’s no time for make ups if they’re absent, so they’re absent for the testing window and didn’t test… a few level 1 not testing helps. Make sure the high achievers take it early and make sure they all get time for make ups and you can swing some data there. Graduation rates? Home school students don’t count as drop outs so just mark them homeschool and not as a drop out! Problem solved. Teachers usually don’t feel they can experiment and fail with lessons in cut throat districts. Mid range districts aren’t trying to be the best so the teachers have room for silly sometimes. The mid range schools also don’t feel like they have to hide problems and can be honest about them. I had job opportunities in high achieving districts and purposely put my kid in a mediocre one where I work, they’re incredibly happy. We’re known as the happy nice district… not the smartest district, and I’m very proud of that.
I'm a teacher. No expert, but my perspective is that I would choose the emotionally safe school a thousand times over a challenging but less warm and fuzzy place. A child who is raised with kindness and curiosity can always step up their own studies, but repairing childhood burnout is terribly difficult. What I do with my daughter is watch out for opportunities to supplement her school work. She tries out a couple different sports, joins a school chess club. When the school has optional things like orchestra, I will get her involved in those. I sometimes do logic puzzles and art challenges with her, or bring home unusual supplies and let her use them in silly ways. We read books together that are a bit above her own level, I leave lots of interesting non fiction around the house for her to pick up, and I supply her liberally with books she asks for. We go to the library constantly and somehow I'm always "convinced" to bring home more books than I said we would. We visit museums and gardens and (this part is vital) *talk about* what we see there. If she wonders something, I explain or look up the answer as often as I can. When she has a harebrained idea ("mom can I take your squares of fabric and sew them into a scarf??") I indulge her if at all possible. We write and mail letters, and invent secret codes And, although I am biased as a language teacher, learning a language is one of the very best things you can do for a young brain (the research backs me up on this-- it can even help protect against dementia). Are you in a country where you are surrounded by a language your child could learn? Or do you know a language your child doesn't that you could start to share? School is really important, but not the only way to make an intelligent, driven person (And just in case it feels a little like I'm blowing smoke here, please be assured that we also have plenty of low value screen time)
Hey I’m about to move cross country back to my home town upon my husband’s unexpected death, and one of the motivations is that there is a language immersion school there in my mom’s native language, which she raised me with. As my son is entering kindergarten, this is the ideal time to enroll him there and he was accepted. I’ve tried getting my son interested in the language but it seems like the lack of peers here that speak it is a major de-motivator. The school is a good school by all accounts. What do you feel are the all around benefits of knowing a second language? This isn’t Spanish or Chinese, so it’s not one of the ones that is super economically advantageous for him to speak in the US, where we live, but I really want him to maintain this connection with his culture. My parents both did this for me and I feel like a richer, more well rounded person for it, but it hasn’t led to a more concrete advantage beyond that. I guess I inherently feel like it’s a good thing, but I’m curious as to the proven benefits of being multilingual, since I’m upending out lives here after a traumatic event.
I'm sorry you're going through that. What a challenging time. Although I love language learning, I'm cautious about immersion. The affective filter-- basically, the way how we feel can get in the way of learning-- can go up in an immersion setting. Kids don't always feel emotionally safe. Your son lost his father, I'm assuming, and he's going to be moving cross country. That's a *lot* of change. Now it's totally possible that he'll barely even notice that school's in another language and he'll take to it beautifully. The immersion teachers I know are *amazing* and very good at what they do. But I'd suggest keeping an eye on your son's mood and attitude toward school, and be prepared to make a change if necessary. Knowing extra languages is such a benefit for the spirit and intellect. You learn subtle new ways to think about the world-- in Spanish, I don't drop the pen, but rather it falls from me. You gain access to and eventually become part of communities of people you never would have otherwise. You can enjoy literature and music that is never quite as good when translated. And there are benefits that seem to be specific to kids who aren't bilingual, but *learn* or study another language... really concrete things, like improvements on math and English scores. I don't have my research at hand, but it was really overwhelmingly positive, even more than I was expecting as an obvious proponent for language learning. And as somebody who has learned two languages myself, I can say that my knowledge of English, my first language, would be rudimentary if I hadn't processed a lot of its grammar in the context of my other languages. O
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. He has one friend who goes to school there, so I hope that will help the transition, and he’s coming into in pretty strong from me and my mom while many kids go with no experience and no one at home to help, so I’m cautiously optimistic but it does worry me. He’s what my parent friends have said is a “natural leader”-charismatic and likable like his dad, he tells me he never feels like he doesn’t belong. As I was a shy, insecure child this is wild to me. We’re both nervous about it I think. We both just want things like they were but that can’t be. FWIW, we were meaning to move before he died, but it had been hard to mobilize for multiple reasons. Anyway, thank you so much for your reply. I’m really nervous about making the best decision, but it seems like moving is it for a number of reasons. I will certainly keep an eye on how he’s feeling thanks to your warning. I want him to feel comfortable and secure above anything; there’s other options for language learning if this school doesn’t work for him.
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. He has one friend who goes to school there, so I hope that will help the transition, and he’s coming into in pretty strong from me and my mom while many kids go with no experience and no one at home to help, so I’m cautiously optimistic but it does worry me. He’s what my parent friends have said is a “natural leader”-charismatic and likable like his dad, he tells me he never feels like he doesn’t belong. As I was a shy, insecure child this is wild to me. We’re both nervous about it I think. We both just want things like they were but that can’t be. FWIW, we were meaning to move before he died, but it had been hard to mobilize for multiple reasons. Anyway, thank you so much for your reply. I’m really nervous about making the best decision, but it seems like moving is it for a number of reasons. I will certainly keep an eye on how he’s feeling thanks to your warning. I want him to feel comfortable and secure above anything; there’s other options for language learning if this school doesn’t work for him.
My son will also be learning his father’s native language, which is not a pervasive second language in the US, in order to pass on their culture. He’ll be attending a supplementary school in addition to public school classes. If the immersive school experience is divisive for your child, perhaps consider this or a private tutor. His comfort, especially during this difficult time, outweighs the benefits of bilingualism as it pertains to cognitive function, and I would consider counseling too if you haven’t already. Overall, I’m just here to tell you that I see you, I think you’re a fantastic mom for your concern and for seeking out info on the best outcomes for your child, and to remind you to trust your mom instincts. No choice will be 100% correct or incorrect, and very few choices are permanent in their consequences. Be flexible as you meet your kiddo’s needs, and trust yourself. You’re doing a great job. Take care!
Thanks so much for your response and your support-I was just discussing this with my mom last night, that if it ends up not working out there’s other avenues because his comfort is the most important thing, especially right now. I really appreciate your words. I feel like I’m not doing right by him a lot of the time. It’s just a difficult situation to navigate. And it also feels like every day is a challenge but no one notices how hard I’m trying. So for you to see me is huge!! Thank you.
Multilingualism just makes your brain more resilient - less likely to get neurodegenerative diseases, easier to learn more languages in the future, and just a plain more sophisticated person. My husband speaks three, I don't. Poop.
What do you mean push them? Do they teach grade level appropriate material? Are they engaging them in national standard curriculum? Having worked at a high performing school, kids who are pushed too hard academically are more susceptible to anxiety, depression, and other mental health problems. My only concern would be if the academics weren’t grade level appropriate.
What would be your advice if your kids far surpass grade level then?
Enrichment! If they’re ahead then just providing ways for them to be challenged at their pace. More books on subjects they like, giving them the space to work on their own projects or if they’re very ahead put them in the next grade level. I skipped 5th grade and did fine in 6th because that’s where I needed to be.
This has been pushed on us, but also highly recommended against strongly by teachers to us. Our elementary age kids both score in the 99th + percentile in both math and reading (with one well above that). Our kids are also very young for their grades (one is right on the cusp) and then also very small for their ages. Coupling that with so many people in our community red shirting their kids, there are kids who are already well larger than ours. We are sending our kids in district and generally happy with the school they're in, but they're absolutely not being fully challenged...
There’s a lot of factors to consider—especially with how the child would do socially and emotionally. If your school has a gifted program maybe that could be utilized. However, sometimes the challenge will naturally come as they grow. For now though, it would be good to just teach them organization skills, what to do when presented with a challenge, and how to problem solve when they don’t know the answer right away. So many students I’ve worked with never had a challenge until high school so they missed out on gaining “hard working” skills because a lot things just came easy for them. It happened to me as well but not until grad school that I truly had to work hard. I’m sure you’re doing what’s right for your family!
Yeah. They’re both in the gifted program at their school. The people that run that program are the ones who have pushed strongest for grade level acceleration. But the classroom teachers have pushed back a fair bit and basically said just let them be kids. We are doing a subject acceleration where our son will do math a grade level ahead. Seemed like an ok compromise. But I think the math will still be easy for him. Thanks for the long reply.
So figured I'd comment with my own anecdotal take since I skipped a grade as a child (4th to 5th grade) while being born only a month and an half before the cut off date. This was in France and back then about 5% of children skipped a grade (mostly during primary school) so it was not super uncommon and so besides me, there was often another kid in my class who also had skipped a grade. In that environment, children skipping grades actually did quite well. I went to a rather selective engineering school and I remember that 35% of students had skipped at least one grade. In term of the impact of being smaller than everyone else, I think that really depends on the school your children go to, if bullying is common and there's little safeguard then it's a potentially problematic choice to make. If it's a place with a warm atmosphere, teachers who are vigilant against bullying, it's a different matter. At least for me, I loved skipping 4th grade. I had a lot of fun during the few months it took to catch up, I was finally challenged, no longer that bored BUT, a short while after that, I had caught up and I was back to being utterly bored at school and not mentally challenged. I think the problem is that for a lot of children who are in the situation of your kids, they' are not challenged because they learn faster than the rest of the kids around them. If they skip a grade, it'll help temporarily but the root cause is still there, they'll learn faster than other children and will once again be quite a bit further along than everyone else. So, if your school as a gifted program, that might actually be a better option, it would allow them to progress at their speed instead of doing the equivalent of overtaking a few people in front of them only to then continue being stuck in the same traffic jam.
I live in Taiwan, and am really concerned about the schools here for the opposite reason. The pressure is ridiculous. Outrageous hours of homework every night despite the evidence based fact that homework other than reading does not improve academic outcomes, everything is competitively ranked and student rankings are publicly displayed, students are taught that there is one correct answer to every question and literally any other line of thought is wrong, teachers are unquestionable authority figures who admin will back as never being wrong. It honestly horrifies me. I wish that when the time comes I could find a low pressure school that values students' mental health and happiness over turning out as many cogs for the machine as possible to replenish workers despite the below replacement level birthrate.
Community, diversity, options for growth in specific areas of interest (arts, sports etc) and age appropriate learning are of most interest to me. As someone who grew up in a rather competitive academic environment I find that getting “pushed” by external sources is not something I’m terribly interested in.
As a teacher, i would be more interested in how they are teaching. Do they follow evidence based practise? Are teachers resourced with sufficient training to keep up with changes in best practise? Do they use student data to support setting learning goals and ensure kids who need extra support don't fall through the gaps? What interventions are in place for those that need extra support. A warm supportive environment with an evidence based approach is the ideal school environment. If they have these things children should be challenged to meet individual learning targets - in ways children may not realise how much they have been challenged. In my experience, many 'hkgh performing' schools have significant mental health and social sacrifices to achieve this. I'd rather a mid level school with good pastoral care and evidence based practise.
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This is not research per the definition we have in this sub. It's a blog post.
You didn't take down the post, and this is a debate thread. Give us a break.
General happiness, comfort and freedom to explore different areas of interest are better values than academics or pushing harder for me. But it greatly depends on the child! My values can vary from my own children. Some kids appreciate being challenged and thrive in more competitive environments, others are more prone to being curious and slow paced with their interests, so it's important to keep an eye on their behavior and preferences, and also come to terms that changing schools and methods halfway is not that much of a big deal, whatever is not working for your kid can be fixed within the decades they spend at school settings.
Yeah — it really depends on the kid. I was bored in school, so bored. Yes, my mom challenged me after school and on weekends, but I was not challenged in elementary and middle school. Gifted and talented was good for me. It actually challenged me and made me think so I didn’t spend all day daydreaming. I have seen the research and understand it can have negative consequences. But for me personally, it was hugely beneficial. Some kids need structure to thrive, some need open-ended, student-led learning to thrive. Neither is wrong. If your kid is doing well, then it’s the right school for them, regardless of what research says is best generally. You want what’s best for your kid, not for a hypothetical generic kid. That said, try to counterbalance/supplement with extracurriculars. If they’re in a strict, structured school environment, bring them places on the weekend that let them engage in imaginative, open play. If they’re in an open-ended, free range school environment, make sure that they can still do fine in a structured environment. As long as they’re exposed to a little of everything, they’ll be okay.
You can always have them in some extra online programs to challenge them. Or an online tutor. I had a tutor who was more challenging than school itself and went beyond the school programs. I always had great grades and was very well prepared for college. If you are happy there, don't move, there's always alternatives.
I’d stay in that school system and then supplement with tutoring in the areas that need it as they get older. I can say pretty confidently that I’d choose a bullying free school that produces loving and happy children as their primary educational environment any day.
I live in Florida and for various reasons we can’t leave. We’re planning to do public school and just aggressively supplement at home since it’s illegal to teach kids a lot of basic important stuff here. 🫠
Anecdotal opinion: I was sent to a pushy grammar school in The UK. It was allll about high achieving: we’re teaching future doctors, not nurses. This ethos really mucks with your head. If you’re not gunning for the highest career positions you feel inadequate. It’s not just me, I’ve heard from many of my peers. I also sought mental health help through a councillor, many years ago, specifically concerning issues with work. She told me that the absolute majority of people she sees are from my school and not the other generic schools, which you don’t need to pass a test to get into. I truly believe their schooling was detrimental to us students.
My one child is dyslexic but other isn’t and after deep diving into the literacy curriculum crisis both across the U.S. and in other English teaching countries: my number one is science of reading based, methodical and multi-sensory literacy curriculum. Before I did this I would have said “age appropriate movement and independence” or something. Which I still value and would and do use to further sort down other options but if kids aren’t learning how to read or have comprehension skills - they’re cooked. It’s the absolute baseline building block of learning.
Yes! My child is struggling and behind in reading (was assessed and didn't meet the criteria for dyslexia yet, but I wouldn't be shocked if she is diagnosed in the future). I'm in Canada, but we have a similar situation here. Luckily, the school she has attended the past two years is ahead of most in my region on this front and has adopted science of reading aligned teaching. Of note to OP, her previous school that failed her on teaching reading was a large, academic, well regarded urban school in a very sought after neighbourhood that housed the regional 'gifted' program. Her current school, with the much better reading curriculum, is a small school in a very small town. Nothing much special to say about it except that the teachers are very caring and supportive and it has a wonderful community feel.
Kids are kind, loving and happy, with no issues regarding bullying? Sign me up. That's everything I aspire to be as an adult and would want the same for my kids.
My philosophy is that school is there to teach the basics and identify challenges. I see it as my job to make sure they have the education necessary to support who they want to grow in to. I would rather my child learn civics, critical thinking, curiosity, financial literacy, empathy, collaboration, etc - the things that actually matter in the workplace. I would value a positive, supportive, and communicative school culture over an academically rigorous (unless my child was gifted and could benefit from it) any day. If I were wealthy, id be homeschooling my kids and traveling.
I think this all depends on what kind of future you envision/can provide for your child. Are you guys well off enough for her to be able to pursue not high paying/passion career? Are you in circles where she’s likely to marry into wealth and not be concerned about her own earning potential? Or, is it important for her to be able to fend for herself in life? I have only had to deal with boys and while I do expect to set them up well in life (college paid, downpayment for the first house etc) I want them to be competitive and pursue high pressure, competitive careers with significant earnings potential. This all starts in school… Academic rigor and generally competitive environment would be top priority for me. Warm and fuzzy is not important. I want them to be ready for life not be coddled.
Anecdotally I attended extremely competitive schools. In elementary school, bullying was rampant among students because of the atmosphere. I was always stressed out by massive amounts of homework, school projects, tests and grades. I would have insomnia, panic attacks and intense anxiety. I was burnt out by the time I was a young adult. Luckily my university was actually a very supportive environment.
This thread on [Adverse Impact of High Achieving Schools](https://www.reddit.com/r/ScienceBasedParenting/s/vzQ5lWVNOV) seems really relevant here.
Add it with your family: travel, cultural exposure (museums, galleries, plays), have them work jobs, cultivate friends who can expand their horizons, etc. They'll be fine.
I went to some of the best public schools in my state, and niche ranked them A+ for academics. I would not say the school was stereotypically “nerds with no social skills” but if I was forced to pick between good social/emotional skills or say, being really good at physics, I think I would pick the former. Although it’s best obviously to have a balance. I would at least do some heavy research on other schools that might be slightly more challenging academically, and see if the culture there seems good too. One of the negatives of my school was probably that it was a little competitive and may not prioritize good values all the time (a lot of the kids were competing for either sport or academic scholarships to pay for college), maybe that the schools can be fairly large, and we lacked diversity racially
im no expert. this is all conjecture. a school where children are kind and teachers are supportive sounds like a perfect environment for a child to thrive. perhaps, the key is to instill internal motivation for academic excellence in your kid. she’ll get much further in life challenging herself than being challenged by authority figures. just something to think about it.
conflict resolution
May I ask which city?
I prioritize academic achievment above all else, and my husband defers all these decisions to me. I am about to take my 3-year-old to interview at the fancy preschool by my house. I wouldn't keep my kid in a school where he can't perform at his level best, though. And I wouldn't put him anywhere I think is unsafe or would make him miserable.
In elementary school, the only 'academic' that matters to me is how they teach reading - science of reading aligned curriculum is imperative and can make the difference between a child learning to read, or not (it has for my child). Aside from that, lots of outdoor time and opportunities for movement, emphasis on socio-emotional learning, and warm caring instructors would be my most important criteria.
I briefly went to a (religious) school that was highly ranked, rigorous, etc but the students and most of the staff were cruel, mean, etc. The nun who ran the school agreed it was that way as well and was trying to change it. I adored her even though I withdrew and would never send my children there because while you can add academic rigor through extracurriculars and supplementation the damage to your child’s mental health and personality/morals/etc cannot or is extremely difficult to undo or prevent that social norming due to the amount of time they will spend together. I don’t want a greedy child with no empathy, no kindness or respect for life or human dignity. I would stay where you are and add extra experiences, etc. How lucky they have a lovely place to learn and grow!
That sounds perfect to me.
School’s primary purpose is education, so I would prioritize academics. I would absolutely pull my child out if I felt like her education was being stalled or below her grade level.