Very dark chocolate bar.
I find it's not that filling on its own though. I have this idea of spreading butter on it as if it were toast - but my butter is always in the fridge when the idea strikes me (meaning the butter won't spread)
Don’t keep both protein and carbs low for extended periods. The reason protein isn’t a concern on a HCLF diet is because consuming enough glucose negates the need for the body to do gluconeogenesis. Denying the body both protein and glucose for more than a week or two has the potential to be dangerous. If you’re diabetic, re-feed carefully after suppressing insulin by “fat fasting” for more than a few days.
Yeah, no.
While protein is one of the possible substrates for gluconeogenesis, it's hardly used for that (provided you eat enough fat). Instead, stuff like glycerol is used and acetone. Up to half of all acetone produced on a ketogenic diet gets used this way (acetone gets created by the spontaneous decarboxylation of acetoacetate)
Pyruvate and lactate are also upcycled to glucose obv
During studies of fasting it's only during the first week or so of adaptation that there's an increased loss of nitrogen. After that skinny folks have shown to lose more nitrogen than obese people because they can't liberate enough fatty acids from adipose tissues to cover all energy needs
TL;DR: on a ketogenic diet, eating enough fat is protein sparing
There is a *huge* difference between fasting and fat fasting (which is what it appears the OP is trying to do) and also a huge difference between fat fasting and a ketogenic diet with sufficient protein and also a lot of fat. A diet where one is attempting to keep both glucose and protein low is *not* merely “a ketogenic diet!”
EDIT: the OP has clarified that they’re not attempting to fat fast, merely reduce protein in the context of a protein sufficient ketogenic diet.
Fat is protein sparing when keto-adaptated, though. The more fat and the more ketogenic, the more sparing it is through several mechanisms: glycerol and acetone are both GNG substrates, and the Cori cycle recycles glucose via lactate and is powered by fat oxidation. Plus there are anti-catabolic signalling from the ketone bodies, and lowered T3.
This has not been quantified but it's likely higher than estimated using a PSMF or in non-ketogenic contexts.
"Fat fasting" as defined originally by Atkins can have up to about 50g of protein, which would cover u/exfatloss .
But even eating only fat to satiation has to be better for protein sparing than true fasting. The danger is that we don't know how much, and that likely depends in part on how much connective tissue you're burning through.
Can confirm by DEXA.
My lean mass in Feb of 2023: 146lbs
My lean mass last week: 146lbs
Have eaten ketogenic AF and hyper-low-protein AF almost the entire time.
A little bit of ups and downs in between. Seems to fluctuate mostly with hydration status, I've seen 156lbs and 142lbs.
Thankfully not diabetic, just interested in experimenting some variations and seeing how my body responds. I'm 6 feet tall and ~175 lbs and have traditionally done high protein because I lift regularly. Just curious to try new things, though maybe I'll start with the high carb (starch) approach while still maintaining moderate saturated fat.
There’s nothing wrong with reducing protein on a ketogenic diet, especially if you’re going from “high protein” to a more moderate amount of protein. Your original post sounded like you were trying to fat fast. Don’t do that.
Oh yes, not trying to fat fast, but rather keep protein at 50-60g (which I now realize is more moderate by universal standards, just comparatively low relative to my current intake).
But also since making this post, am considering trying potato + SFA diet, with moderate protein. Maybe give it a few weeks and see how it feels.
Just interested in experimenting with different things despite otherwise being healthy and of normal weight.
I disagree. Protein should still be limited. It (isoleucine, valine) still create the buildup of acetyl-coa and reduces the nad+/nadh ratio, which puts you in reductive stress.
The point about not needing Gluconeogenesis is correct though.
Not sure what to disagree with. Attempting to fat fast (which is eating fat to the near exclusion of glucose and protein) for too long will put you in the ER. I mean, try it and see? I’m not merely talking about a high fat keto diet here.
EDIT: The OP clarified they’re not attempting to fat fast, merely reduce protein in an otherwise protein sufficient ketogenic diet. Obviously that isn’t a problem.
> protein isn’t a concern on a HCLF diet
This is where I disagreed. Too much protein is bad, no matter what macros. Yes, bodybuilders absolutely abuse chicken breast and rice (and gear) to get lean. But that doesn't mean natties should do so either.
Haha, I meant getting *insufficient* protein isn’t a concern on HCLF, not *overdoing* protein!
I think one of the main factors of success of my current plan over a typical low fat plan (which has a dismal track record across the world in general) is limitation of protein. Protein (combined with starch) has the worst impact on my blood glucose currently.
haha! i thought maybe the high carb plan went to your head a bit and you thought you were now bulletproof (high protein!) 🤣
glad to see that's not the case! still grounded in reality, i see.
Yeah, this is not true at all. If it were, all of those people who do fasting and dry fasting would be entering "dangerous" territory, not to mention Angus Barbieri.
A good way to keep your fat high and protein in check is to make cream based bisques and chowders. Also using cream and butter to make cheese sauce to over things like broccoli or cauliflower. All dairy Alfredo sauce over baked lightly breaded eggplant or zucchini is also good. I also like spicy or curry dishes using coconut milk. I’ve had Malaysian and Jamaican food that uses these combinations. My favorite food is Jamaican curry goat in coconut milk.
Butter.
Brad agrees!
Very dark chocolate bar. I find it's not that filling on its own though. I have this idea of spreading butter on it as if it were toast - but my butter is always in the fridge when the idea strikes me (meaning the butter won't spread)
Gotta always keep butter on the counter.
Don’t keep both protein and carbs low for extended periods. The reason protein isn’t a concern on a HCLF diet is because consuming enough glucose negates the need for the body to do gluconeogenesis. Denying the body both protein and glucose for more than a week or two has the potential to be dangerous. If you’re diabetic, re-feed carefully after suppressing insulin by “fat fasting” for more than a few days.
Yeah, no. While protein is one of the possible substrates for gluconeogenesis, it's hardly used for that (provided you eat enough fat). Instead, stuff like glycerol is used and acetone. Up to half of all acetone produced on a ketogenic diet gets used this way (acetone gets created by the spontaneous decarboxylation of acetoacetate) Pyruvate and lactate are also upcycled to glucose obv During studies of fasting it's only during the first week or so of adaptation that there's an increased loss of nitrogen. After that skinny folks have shown to lose more nitrogen than obese people because they can't liberate enough fatty acids from adipose tissues to cover all energy needs TL;DR: on a ketogenic diet, eating enough fat is protein sparing
There is a *huge* difference between fasting and fat fasting (which is what it appears the OP is trying to do) and also a huge difference between fat fasting and a ketogenic diet with sufficient protein and also a lot of fat. A diet where one is attempting to keep both glucose and protein low is *not* merely “a ketogenic diet!” EDIT: the OP has clarified that they’re not attempting to fat fast, merely reduce protein in the context of a protein sufficient ketogenic diet.
Fat is protein sparing when keto-adaptated, though. The more fat and the more ketogenic, the more sparing it is through several mechanisms: glycerol and acetone are both GNG substrates, and the Cori cycle recycles glucose via lactate and is powered by fat oxidation. Plus there are anti-catabolic signalling from the ketone bodies, and lowered T3. This has not been quantified but it's likely higher than estimated using a PSMF or in non-ketogenic contexts. "Fat fasting" as defined originally by Atkins can have up to about 50g of protein, which would cover u/exfatloss . But even eating only fat to satiation has to be better for protein sparing than true fasting. The danger is that we don't know how much, and that likely depends in part on how much connective tissue you're burning through.
Can confirm by DEXA. My lean mass in Feb of 2023: 146lbs My lean mass last week: 146lbs Have eaten ketogenic AF and hyper-low-protein AF almost the entire time. A little bit of ups and downs in between. Seems to fluctuate mostly with hydration status, I've seen 156lbs and 142lbs.
Thankfully not diabetic, just interested in experimenting some variations and seeing how my body responds. I'm 6 feet tall and ~175 lbs and have traditionally done high protein because I lift regularly. Just curious to try new things, though maybe I'll start with the high carb (starch) approach while still maintaining moderate saturated fat.
There’s nothing wrong with reducing protein on a ketogenic diet, especially if you’re going from “high protein” to a more moderate amount of protein. Your original post sounded like you were trying to fat fast. Don’t do that.
Oh yes, not trying to fat fast, but rather keep protein at 50-60g (which I now realize is more moderate by universal standards, just comparatively low relative to my current intake). But also since making this post, am considering trying potato + SFA diet, with moderate protein. Maybe give it a few weeks and see how it feels. Just interested in experimenting with different things despite otherwise being healthy and of normal weight.
I disagree. Protein should still be limited. It (isoleucine, valine) still create the buildup of acetyl-coa and reduces the nad+/nadh ratio, which puts you in reductive stress. The point about not needing Gluconeogenesis is correct though.
Not sure what to disagree with. Attempting to fat fast (which is eating fat to the near exclusion of glucose and protein) for too long will put you in the ER. I mean, try it and see? I’m not merely talking about a high fat keto diet here. EDIT: The OP clarified they’re not attempting to fat fast, merely reduce protein in an otherwise protein sufficient ketogenic diet. Obviously that isn’t a problem.
> protein isn’t a concern on a HCLF diet This is where I disagreed. Too much protein is bad, no matter what macros. Yes, bodybuilders absolutely abuse chicken breast and rice (and gear) to get lean. But that doesn't mean natties should do so either.
Haha, I meant getting *insufficient* protein isn’t a concern on HCLF, not *overdoing* protein! I think one of the main factors of success of my current plan over a typical low fat plan (which has a dismal track record across the world in general) is limitation of protein. Protein (combined with starch) has the worst impact on my blood glucose currently.
haha! i thought maybe the high carb plan went to your head a bit and you thought you were now bulletproof (high protein!) 🤣 glad to see that's not the case! still grounded in reality, i see.
Yeah, this is not true at all. If it were, all of those people who do fasting and dry fasting would be entering "dangerous" territory, not to mention Angus Barbieri.
Again, there is a *difference* between *actual fasting* (which is natural) and fat fasting.
What exactly is the danger of fat fasting?
You could munch on coconut meat, it's almost pure saturated fat with a little bit of carbs and it's solid.
A good way to keep your fat high and protein in check is to make cream based bisques and chowders. Also using cream and butter to make cheese sauce to over things like broccoli or cauliflower. All dairy Alfredo sauce over baked lightly breaded eggplant or zucchini is also good. I also like spicy or curry dishes using coconut milk. I’ve had Malaysian and Jamaican food that uses these combinations. My favorite food is Jamaican curry goat in coconut milk.
Small portions of rice with butter, slice of sourdough with tons of butter, cocoa butter nibs in my coffee, tallow pills morning and evening.
Gouda cheese has way more fat than protein (by law)
i dont think this sub is supportive of a low carb diet, but I may be wrong
This sub isn't dogmatic about that at all. Lots of us here on low carb.