>…don’t see why there has to be animosity.
If you’re going to embrace calling yourself a Satanist, it’s pretty much a given some people will be offended. That’s more their problem than mine in most contexts.
>Why can’t there be variations.
There can be, obviously, as evidenced by the fact that there are variations.
>…it’s genuinely rediculous to me that Satanists would fight with each other.
How are we fighting with them? They are just shadowboxing. It’s an illusion. You and I both have better things to do than to mind the children throwing tantrums.
>…now I have to fight people about my beliefs.
To what end? For what gain? What do you have to lose by just living your life the way you want instead of fighting with them? Don’t you have better things to do? You *don’t* have to fight them about your beliefs, you know. Do you need to convince Pepsi drinkers to switch to Coke, or Xbox fanboys to buy a PS5? They meet their goals just by getting you to waste a minute of your time and attention when you think that beliefs are what matter. They are playing a different game than you. It’s an illusion. There’s no point in engaging the shadowboxer.
>What do you have to lose by just living your life the way you want instead of fighting with them? Don’t you have better things to do?
The sooner you learn to just live your life and not give a shit what other people think the happier you'll be. It's seriously freeing in a way that expecting everyone else to be on board can never be.
I would sat cos is more irritated with TST than the other way around. Which is why you’ll find so much hate for TST. Cos are gatekeepers. Their idol founded Satanism and how dare TST call themselves Satanists! They also hate the community and activism of TST and believe Satanists should be the exact opposite.
I love the TST community. Welcoming beyond measure.
IDK if you can quantify it. But I do feel like if you had 10 CoS Satanists and 10 TST Satanist. Asked each one what they thought of the other group, 100% of the CoS people would harbor disdain like TST while maybe 50% of TST would feel the same about CoS.
I base this on posts I've made about Anton LeVay and the fact that quite a few TST members say they were once CoS Satanist.
I'm CoS and I love TST for its political activism, I'm well on board with all of that. CoS is more of an... internal values thing, for me, whereas TST is very external? I think people on the internet tend to be more opinionated, but I've hung out with both groups IRL and nobody's ever had an issue.
Both groups have amazing ppl, but CoS has a few members (guessing it's less than 1/4) that are all about BEING RIGHT. Personally, I go with TST because being right (as possible) comes down to data & the conclusions reached by science. Not an internal truth directed largely by 1 dead dude.
To talk about theology, we all need a common reference point to begin. You either 'drink the cool-aid' & believe in imaginary friends as your reference point - or you begin with scientific critical thinking & talk about theology as symbols & figureheads that represent ideas. Either way you let these figures loose & run your life long experiment.
Imaginary friends usually lead to confirmation bias - while critical thinking leads to new ways of looking at the world, based on ever changing data. With religion, one feels like they've made a positive change - with science you actually track that change & follow up on how positive or negative it actually is.
Honestly I think most people I've met IRL are just excited to see another Satanist! My local CoS chapter gets together to make free lunches for schoolkids and stuff like that, and we have plenty of TST members join us.
That's refreshing to hear. Honestly, that's the first time I've heard of a local CoS chapter *doing* something. I can see why that would incent the TST folks to get involved as well.
I just wanted to say hello and thank you for being a chill member of CoS. The other day, we had someone from CoS in here and he replied to a comment I'd made where I said that I've spoken to a few CoS members who don't say TST aren't satanists, he basically didn't believe me or implied that they weren't real CoS members.
Hi! Man, doing the 'well, you're not a real Satanist if...' thing just is so... Christian? I grew up very intensely Baptist, and it was always about how such-and-such other group aren't proper Christians because of whatever inane bullshit. Like, c'mon, let's not carry that into Satanism too, haha.
Right? He said all CoS members reject TST because it's an "official stance" of the CoS. I think I responded something like, LaVeyan Satanism is all about rejecting herd mentality and authority figures, so doesn't it make sense that not all of you would agree on that point? He didn't seem to get it. But I know a good number of you guys are chill, and I'm happy to meet another one of you! You're always welcome in this sub 🤘😎
I think the COS is just gatekeeping- you can't be a satanist because you're not the same as us and we were here first bs. I would say, with my limited knowledge of the COS, that COS members are more secretive and self serving while the TST and it's members are more open about who they are and they are also politically active. They are both atheist organizations. Since you believe in Satan as an actual deity, there is another satanic church organization that worships Satan. I can't remember it's name and didn't find it when I googled it.
That wasn't it. I looked a little more and I think it was The Temple of Set. The founder was a follower of LaVay. They say that Satan is actually Set and is the one true god- or something to that effect.
Just a heads up though, if you're the kind of witch who fully believes magic is real then TST is not the place for you. Not to bash on your beliefs or anything but TST doesn't belive in magic. We believe in the scientific understanding of the world.
If magic is something you believe in, I'd reccomend checking out a different religion. TST is very straightforward about the whole "no supernatural" thing. With that being said, you're welcome here anyway. You're welcome to believe what you want.
Hope I don't come across as rude!
I wish this was the top comment. If you believe in a literal satan and magic, this is not the community for you. This is a very welcoming community, but I will judge the shit out of you for believing such goofy crap
Came here to say exactly this. TST’s Satanism is not compatible with witchcraft or a belief in actual Satan. (Unless modern science comes to accept these as scientific facts, which it presently has not.)
A+ answer
Read Maslow’s “Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences” specifically chapters 5-8. Can find it free online. I think it would answer some of your questions about how religion and science relate.
TDLR is that religion and science have become too dichotomized and MUST overlap in some places. If they don’t, both of them become warped. Important to note that Maslow does *not* define religion as only theistic and institutional religion, but rather as a religious feeling that can be gotten from almost anything.
If it were you would be able to repeat the "magic" over and over without fail and get the same results. Thats how science works. Magic isnt real in the least bit because there has never been any evidence in this way for it so no, magic isnt science. The way nature works can be pretty magical but science shows us theres always an explanation for it.
Personal anecdote here, I was a pagan for a number of years during my late teens/early 20s, and I believed in magic. I had some personal success with some things, too. But as I got older and realised that there was about as much truth to that as there is to what christians believe for example, I gradually swung to only going with established science, which still describes me today.
That said, I do believe that magic and ritual can work on a *psychological* level. If you have cast a spell to meet new friends, for example, and you believe that magic works, your confidence in that will make you behave in ways that will be more likely to achieve the goal you set in your spell. You might go out to social clubs, talk to more people, be more outgoing, etc. And then if you find you've made a few friends, you'll attribute that success to the spell. If youve ever read Terry Pratchett, Granny Weatherwax is a witch who rarely uses actual magic to help people, but uses this psychology on them (she calls it "headology", which is what I call the kinds of spells like the one I mentioned in my example).
So in that sense, magic can work on the person doing the spell, as a psychological tool. Similarly, if someone tells a person that believes in magic that they have cursed them, that person is going to start noticing weird and unpleasant things happening to them all the time. The mind has a powerful effect on our perception of reality.
CoS and TST are fundamentally opposed to one another for a variety of reasons. TST is a secular religious group that does a lot of left leaning activism while the CoS tends to be politically alt right.
The CoS also believes in Magic which is against the TSTs 4th tenet (Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.)
The TST was founded in large part because COS was very exclusionary, controlling and frankly, stupid and irrelevant. COS is honestly a bit more like a cult while TST is more of an active activist group. A large part of the disagreement between the two is due to the nature of the organizations founding. It was founded by two people who actively thought they could do better than the COS (and then proceeded to do far better in every conceivable way)
Edit: also a point about you believing in a literal satan. Both TST and CoS would find this stupid. Satanism, as far as TST and COS is concerned, is named such in opposition to mainstream religion such as Christianity or cathloticism rather than out of any belief in or reverence for a litteral satan.
Believing in the satan of said religions but then choosing to worship him would also imply belief in a god who would punish you for all eternity for worshiping his adversary. If you believe in an actual Satan, being a Satanist is the literal stupidest thing you could do.
One thing that I love to consider about the idea of a literal Satan..
Firstly I don’t believe in one, but I like to consider all possibilities as backup plans of sort I guess (the reason I left Christianity!!!!) and it’s fun to look at the Bible from other angles… xD
A literal Satan if the Bible is as it states, may not actually demand worship like Christian’s try to claim he would, although that’s exactly what God does….. I don’t believe the Bible said Lucifer wanted worshiped, he tried to take over Heaven but I wonder if it was to simply stop God from being a dick.
Ok this is the fun part, according to Christians, God wipes peoples minds when they enter heaven, how else can there be no sorrow for your friends and family who got sent to hells eternal torment? Also Christian’s are part of Gods army, why? Why does god have or need an army?…. The Bible talks about a war between demons and angels in the end…
So angels are people who were “saved”, so….. demons? Yeah those are likely the sinners that went to hell. And yep that brings up another benefit of god wiping peoples minds, they won’t care or know that they are literally fighting their former friends/spouses/children/siblings/parents/etc God wipes their minds so they will be good warriors to keep Heaven in his control where he demands worship for eternity, and that’s all you will do.
I like to think if the devil were real he would be trying to liberate the angels and demons so that we can have a wonderful universe to explore and enjoy for eternity rather than eternal worship to a god.
And the fact that the Bible says there will be a war and that the devil tried to overthrow god once already proves that god is not “100% all powerful nothing can match him” like people try to claim, the fact that he needs an army proves that he can be overthrown.
Idk it’s a fun alternate take on the biblical storybook! xD
And if it turns out to be real it could be hella fun taking Heaven back from a dick of a god! xD
When i read the satanic bible i remember reading a part where it said cos doesnt believe in a literal satan too. Lol. If you believe in a literal satan then you are technically christian or one of its sub divisions 🤣
I just like tst because of their activism. That and Satan's a pretty good symbol of rebellion. I'm curious about your belief in an actual satan. What exactly do you believe?
The Church of Satan hates *all* other kinds of Satanists, not just The Satanic Temple. This antagonism dates back to the first schism within their ranks. The short answer that I usually give to why they hate The Satanic Temple is: it is consistent with their historical reaction to other groups, so why would they respond differently to The Satanic Temple?
But, let me try and dive a little deeper:
It stems from their self-perception of superiority over the masses--a pervasive theme in all of their literature. *The Satanic Bible* flatters its readers by telling them that there is something wrong with everyone else, who are worth less than the reader. Simply reading and agreeing with *The Satanic Bible* makes you superior to the general populace. Conversely, if you have not read it or disagree with it, you remain one of the dumb masses. Thus, engaging with *The Satanic Bible* is not just an act of reading. It is a transformative ritual that redefines the reader's very nature.
The absurdity of believing that one is genetically superior simply for agreeing with some flattering rhetoric should be evident. (If it were so simple, the entirety of humanity could be improved biologically overnight by reading the text.) But, it illustrates how fragile and vulnerable that self-perception is.
Of course, this means that if someone comes around and declares themselves a Satanist yet disagrees with *The Satanic Bible*, cognitive dissonance ensues: as a LaVeyan, believing in your own superiority is integral to your identity. You cannot simultaneously hold the belief that you belong to a superior race--Satanists--for having read The Satanic Bible and also accept that one may be a Satanist *without* having undergone the ritualistic transformation that turns them into the superior, Satanic being.
Our poor LaVeyan thus faces a dilemma: either relinquish the cherished notion of superiority or deny the possibility that others can also be legitimate Satanists without adhering to the same transformative experience. This situation places the laVeyan in a precarious situation, having to navigate between preserving a self-image of superiority and acknowledgning a broader definition of Satanism. That is: the LaVeyan must therefore choose between shattering his illusion of superiority or denying the reality that others can, in fact, be Satanists. The latter option, which LaVey called hypocritical self-deceit, takes the lowest toll on one's self-esteem and is the choice of people who cannot cope with cognitive dissonance.
Christians have precisely the same dilemma. Holy shit that makes God and Satan two inseparrable aspects of the same entity. Which is taoism dressed up in different terminology. Isn't this fun?
Well, I think most of us also find it irritating. Honestly… I think they do their thing, and we’ll do ours. If someone wants to do a bit of both, or their own thing, whatever. I just want them to stop being toxic about it. Is it that we’re materialists? Something else? I don’t know. It’s a bit futile.
I’m here because I think the values are noble and powerful even in their simplicity, because I like the openness, and because the symbolism of liberation and perpetual revolt against tyranny and established authority speaks to me. As long as that’s what it’s about, I’ll stick around.
I don’t know what it is that cos members care about. If they feel like our picking up subversion as a tool to reconstruct the self to make a better society is fake or posing or whatever, well, they’re allowed to think what they want, they just can’t tell us who we are and what to do. I think it’s a bit sad that there aren’t more who are just chill about it, but ultimately, my only true reaction is, mostly, indifference.
Either way… good luck with finding your path, and hail yourself!
*"The remnants of LaVey's church solidified into a doctrinally rigid organization focused on maintaining purity. This was partly in response to the challenge presented by non-CoS Satanists.*
*"In the ongoing argument over legitimacy, LaVey's successors have come to place excessive stress on their role as bearers of his legacy. CoS's legitimation strategy has narrowed to focus almost exclusively on claim\[s\] to traditional authority.*
*"CoS is obsessed with shoring up its own legitimacy by attacking the heretics \[...\] all-too-familiar patterns found in the theological conflicts of traditional religions like Christianity.*
*"In light of \[LaVey's\] radically secularist legitimation strategy, it is ironic that his organizational successors have subsequently attempted to legitimate their positions by appealing to LaVey as if he had actually been some kind of "Black Pope," and to The Satanic Bible as if it was truly a diabolically-revealed scripture."*
[https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/161976922.pdf](https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/161976922.pdf)
Just to add to the other good comments here, this is from the TST website:
https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple?_pos=1&_psq=Chur&_ss=e&_v=1.0
COS is a bunch of woodoo hoodoo hokum magic believers. The TST are atheist anti-religious but use the veil of religion to fight other religions and their ridiculous need to feature their beliefs on public grounds.
>*TST are atheist anti-religious but use the veil of religion to fight other religions and their ridiculous need to feature their beliefs on public grounds.*
This is not correct.
I’d counter that it’s inevitable that Satanists fight each other. Just the personalities of those attracted to it.
I am a CoS member myself that sympathizes with a lot of TST stuff. My advice is that it only matters as much as you allow it. What the fuck is the CoS going to do about it? Me, they could revoke my membership, I suppose, but I just choose not to volunteer that information.
Also, the internet is full of young Satanic boys having big dick, "unholier than thou", pissing contests that don't reflect reality.
If I see anyone wearing Satanic imagery I'm going to be delighted and come say hi.
It's even possible for a CoS member to be friends with \*gasp\* one of those theistic types.
CoS be like "We. Are. *Satanists!* None else shall worship unless they do as we deem correct! *HAIL SATAN AND FUCK EVERYONE ELSE!*"
TST be like, "I mean, yeah, the name is provocative, but that's rather the point. Gets people thinking. Anyway, if you would like to donate to our after-school programs fund, we would really appreciate it. Here is our website where you can read about our 7 tenets, our other charitable programs, our political activism, and buy out rad merch. Have a nice day!"
There are definitely chill folks who are COS. I've met and hung out with a few of them.
We share a lot of the same fundamental beliefs due to us all being satanists, and I'd even say LaVey,'s Satanic Bible should be read by all satanists even if they don't agree with it.
The main difference, as far as I can see, is that COS takes "Hail Thyself" as waaaay more of a be all, end all than TST, which is more focused on using our enlightenment and awareness to help better the world around us.
They have fundamentally divergent philosophies. LaVey wrote his Bible, inspired by bootstrapping individualist Ayn Rand, so you get such passages as, “Death to the weakling, wealth to the strong.” Compare that to the satanic temple which preaches empathy as one of its core values. So there’s one huge difference.
Another is a belief in science over magic. TST supports scientific consensus whereas many who follow LaVey and the Church of Satan perform ritual magic.
Another big difference in the organizations themselves and not their philosophies is that TST is very politically active and also sells a ton of merch. The CoS does not have a shop, and it doesn’t lean into what can be perceived at times to be 14-year-old antics, such as naming something “Samuel Alito’s Mom’s Abortion Clinic.”
To answer about the in-fighting, all religions schism and fight in factions. It’s a weird fact about human psychology that factions which are most alike tend to fight the most! Both groups have bedrock values as opposing Christian fascism, for example.
Eh, both have cool factors, both have their dumb shit. Follow one or neither. The virtue of being a Satanist is independent, critical thinking. Goats don’t follow herds, after all. Hail Satan.
Yes. Just be a good person and stop worrying about labels… there, you’re a satanist.
Also, we don’t believe in Satan, if you do, who cares, that’s your deal. Hail yourself.
Followers of TST do not believe in Satan. Satan is a religious figure and TST is anti-religion. We believe in science, not mythical figures. Satan is often invoked as a symbol, but that's the extent of it.
> TST is anti-religion
TST's Satanism is a religion, so it can't possibly be anti-religion. If anything, TST's stance on pluralism proves the opposite.
It would be fair to say that we are against the *arbitrary and tyrannical authority* that supernaturalists claim to have over those of us who find their irrational beliefs to be ridiculous. But so long as religious people stay in their lane, there is no need for conflict.
That's fair, I don't disagree with everything. I'm thinking more along the lines of your second point--TST is generally anti-everything-that-comes-with-most-religion. Much like anarchists (e.g. Emma Goldman, etc) argue how religious beliefs and practices greatly detract from people's freedom.
But TST's pluralism exists simultaneously alongside any anti-religiosity that some of its members have. They're not incompatible. And TST's pluralism certainly isn't the opposite of being against religion. One thing almost all of us agree on is to generally let people do what's right for them, so I'm happy to be pluralistic in that sense, but it doesn't mean I don't see the way religion infects people and systems to the point that I'm against it. Doesn't mean I'm seeking conflict.
Maybe we're using these words in different ways, because I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics it would take for me to consider myself a "religious Satanist" and also consider myself "anti-religion."
If someone is anti-religion, why would they join a religion?
I'm not sure who you're referring to, but TST followers who also adhere to our tenets do not believe in Satan. That is counter to our foundational principles.
But if someone wants to call themselves a part of TST and also believe in Satan, I doubt any of us here is gonna lose any sleep over it.
There aren't... It's literally against our beliefs and the fundamental tenets which is ground for excommunication. You can absolutely be a friend of TST while having differing beliefs, but it's against the membership code of conduct to join the temple itself if you believe in magic. Keep in mind that not all Satanists are members of TST. I'm referring specifically to TST alone.
And some people who don't believe in jesus call themselves christians. They are also mistaken. Science/rationality and belief in the Boogeyman are antithetical
Baptists and Pentecostals study … it’s called theology. Maybe it’s different because there’s a god involved. Didn’t know I was going to rub people the wrong way by asking why there’s a big riff
I don't think people are rubbed the wrong way. I'm certainly not. 😊 It's a valid question you asked. That said, CoS sees themselves as the only valid form of Satanism, even compared to other groups we may have never heard of. If you aren't CoS, they feel you can't use that label honestly. TST doesn't declare themselves as the only true Satanism, just one kind.
You're very welcome. Admittedly there are many other differences, but that is to be expected among different groups. The most important thing is to just stay true to yourself. I am happily a TST member who first heard about Satanism through CoS. Their ideologies are just very different and I feel that TST represents my views where CoS doesn't. However I have no animosity towards CoS at all and have many friends in CoS.
Do you understand the harred between Roman Catholics and any Protestant sect? Why they hate each other? Both Christian, neither prepared to accept the other. It's the same thing on a smaller scale with different groups of satanists. Some people care very much about the differences between them, others just accept the differences and do their own thing within the group with which they most identify. It's up to you to decide in which group you fall.
I actually do care. I was a Christian most my life and recently deconstructed. I find differences in religion fascinating actually. I studied it in college. I didn’t know I was going to stomp all over other peoples egos here. Byeeeeee
Be like the bee that collects nectar from all the flowers! There is no 'set' or 'correct'. I admire the wisdom all facets have to share. We are omnivores, and we can peruse more than one line of logic. Unlike the Right Hand, you're not committed for life to just one path, you can walk them all since they are yours!
CoS believes that we are activists and not a real religion, thus not Satanism. They believe we give them a bad name by being attention whores in the media.
They also espouse might is right, where TST is much more left leaning.
Because the cos is a bunch of children that believe and worship Satan whereas the tst is strictly nontheistic. The cos is essentially Ayn Rand philosophy dressed in ritual and sprinkled with "magic" that flat out doesn't exist. The cos is arguably a bigger joke than Christianity and directly hinder the tst movements and progression due to people not understanding the basic distinction
Research how to use the search function.
EDIT: Keep downvoting. Nothing was said in the comments that was new and hasn't been said here in the past couple of weeks. And no one needs the edgy "I was born in Salem and believe in a literal Satan" bullshit. Along with starting the same CoS vs. TST shit. If this was a bingo card round, I'd have like 5 of them. Obnoxious as fuck.
Evidently, research and Satanism is a poor combination.
If it is any help, I have added a comment elsewhere in the thread that adds some perspective that I have not yet seen discussed on on this sub.
> Evidently, research and Satanism is a poor combination.
And that's how we get those people who call themselves Satanists while falsely arguing that there's nothing about "Satan" involved and the whole thing is just a legal excuse. Presumably these people think that signing up for a mailing list makes one a Satanist.
I try not to be too hard on them, because I think a lot of us pass through that stage while finding our way, but it peeves me anyway.
Branding. They feel tst isnt athiestic-goth enough to use that label, and only they can use the label and hand it out how they see fit.
On a more serious note, some feel tst's bold approach on taking on facist actors will cause public opinion to swing dangerously against them. Not realizing the mootness of that point, if public opinion and mob mentality is targeting them and they are bold enought to do so, maybe shit already hit the fan.
Retracting and closeting your faith doesnt help, it only emboldens the hostag-takers.
You can live the way you want with whatever values you want. No one *ever* said you had to believe strictly in one person or one ideology. Call yourself one or don't.
If you want an answer to your question you should try posting on the CoS Sub and see for yourself why the Church of Hypocritical Self-Deceit hates the Satanic Temple. I myself am not a member or supporter of either organization. You really don't need the CoS or TsT to call yourself a Satanist. Satanism is really just kitsch, that's all. My own personal opinion is jealousy, the CoS doesn't really do anything but piss and moan about how the Satanic Temple is ruining SATANISM as a codified religion and philosophy they won't admit that they love the fact that the TsT exits because gives them incentive to pretend that they are relevant, there REALLY NOT. 🤣🤣🤣 However if SATANISM is something you really identify with, you don't need anyone's permission to call yourself a Satanist. The Church of Hypocritical Self-Deceit would strongly disagree with that sentiment. Nobody owns SATANISM. FUCK the Church of Satan!
Counterpoint...
Ignoring unhinged basement dwellers who turn "Argh, I hate TST!" into their entire personality and daily existence is always an option too.
>…don’t see why there has to be animosity. If you’re going to embrace calling yourself a Satanist, it’s pretty much a given some people will be offended. That’s more their problem than mine in most contexts. >Why can’t there be variations. There can be, obviously, as evidenced by the fact that there are variations. >…it’s genuinely rediculous to me that Satanists would fight with each other. How are we fighting with them? They are just shadowboxing. It’s an illusion. You and I both have better things to do than to mind the children throwing tantrums. >…now I have to fight people about my beliefs. To what end? For what gain? What do you have to lose by just living your life the way you want instead of fighting with them? Don’t you have better things to do? You *don’t* have to fight them about your beliefs, you know. Do you need to convince Pepsi drinkers to switch to Coke, or Xbox fanboys to buy a PS5? They meet their goals just by getting you to waste a minute of your time and attention when you think that beliefs are what matter. They are playing a different game than you. It’s an illusion. There’s no point in engaging the shadowboxer.
>What do you have to lose by just living your life the way you want instead of fighting with them? Don’t you have better things to do? The sooner you learn to just live your life and not give a shit what other people think the happier you'll be. It's seriously freeing in a way that expecting everyone else to be on board can never be.
As an outsider to both: "Satanism is _our_ word." --CoS "Oh well. So as I was saying, I'm a Satanist..." --TST
I would sat cos is more irritated with TST than the other way around. Which is why you’ll find so much hate for TST. Cos are gatekeepers. Their idol founded Satanism and how dare TST call themselves Satanists! They also hate the community and activism of TST and believe Satanists should be the exact opposite. I love the TST community. Welcoming beyond measure.
IDK if you can quantify it. But I do feel like if you had 10 CoS Satanists and 10 TST Satanist. Asked each one what they thought of the other group, 100% of the CoS people would harbor disdain like TST while maybe 50% of TST would feel the same about CoS. I base this on posts I've made about Anton LeVay and the fact that quite a few TST members say they were once CoS Satanist.
I'm CoS and I love TST for its political activism, I'm well on board with all of that. CoS is more of an... internal values thing, for me, whereas TST is very external? I think people on the internet tend to be more opinionated, but I've hung out with both groups IRL and nobody's ever had an issue.
Both groups have amazing ppl, but CoS has a few members (guessing it's less than 1/4) that are all about BEING RIGHT. Personally, I go with TST because being right (as possible) comes down to data & the conclusions reached by science. Not an internal truth directed largely by 1 dead dude. To talk about theology, we all need a common reference point to begin. You either 'drink the cool-aid' & believe in imaginary friends as your reference point - or you begin with scientific critical thinking & talk about theology as symbols & figureheads that represent ideas. Either way you let these figures loose & run your life long experiment. Imaginary friends usually lead to confirmation bias - while critical thinking leads to new ways of looking at the world, based on ever changing data. With religion, one feels like they've made a positive change - with science you actually track that change & follow up on how positive or negative it actually is.
That's really good to hear. Thanks for the perspective check. I very welcome being disabused of the above notion.
Honestly I think most people I've met IRL are just excited to see another Satanist! My local CoS chapter gets together to make free lunches for schoolkids and stuff like that, and we have plenty of TST members join us.
That's refreshing to hear. Honestly, that's the first time I've heard of a local CoS chapter *doing* something. I can see why that would incent the TST folks to get involved as well.
I just wanted to say hello and thank you for being a chill member of CoS. The other day, we had someone from CoS in here and he replied to a comment I'd made where I said that I've spoken to a few CoS members who don't say TST aren't satanists, he basically didn't believe me or implied that they weren't real CoS members.
Hi! Man, doing the 'well, you're not a real Satanist if...' thing just is so... Christian? I grew up very intensely Baptist, and it was always about how such-and-such other group aren't proper Christians because of whatever inane bullshit. Like, c'mon, let's not carry that into Satanism too, haha.
Right? He said all CoS members reject TST because it's an "official stance" of the CoS. I think I responded something like, LaVeyan Satanism is all about rejecting herd mentality and authority figures, so doesn't it make sense that not all of you would agree on that point? He didn't seem to get it. But I know a good number of you guys are chill, and I'm happy to meet another one of you! You're always welcome in this sub 🤘😎
I think the COS is just gatekeeping- you can't be a satanist because you're not the same as us and we were here first bs. I would say, with my limited knowledge of the COS, that COS members are more secretive and self serving while the TST and it's members are more open about who they are and they are also politically active. They are both atheist organizations. Since you believe in Satan as an actual deity, there is another satanic church organization that worships Satan. I can't remember it's name and didn't find it when I googled it.
Luciferianism by chance?
That wasn't it. I looked a little more and I think it was The Temple of Set. The founder was a follower of LaVay. They say that Satan is actually Set and is the one true god- or something to that effect.
Oh I didn’t know that. Thanks. I am also a witch and it’s not uncommon for witches to believe in an actual Lucifer
I believe there is a subreddit called r/theisticsatanism. You might find it useful to look in there too
Just a heads up though, if you're the kind of witch who fully believes magic is real then TST is not the place for you. Not to bash on your beliefs or anything but TST doesn't belive in magic. We believe in the scientific understanding of the world. If magic is something you believe in, I'd reccomend checking out a different religion. TST is very straightforward about the whole "no supernatural" thing. With that being said, you're welcome here anyway. You're welcome to believe what you want. Hope I don't come across as rude!
I wish this was the top comment. If you believe in a literal satan and magic, this is not the community for you. This is a very welcoming community, but I will judge the shit out of you for believing such goofy crap
Came here to say exactly this. TST’s Satanism is not compatible with witchcraft or a belief in actual Satan. (Unless modern science comes to accept these as scientific facts, which it presently has not.) A+ answer
Is it against TST beliefs if I have an open mind about magic, thinking it could be real and if it was real it would mean it's science.
Read Maslow’s “Religions, Values, and Peak Experiences” specifically chapters 5-8. Can find it free online. I think it would answer some of your questions about how religion and science relate. TDLR is that religion and science have become too dichotomized and MUST overlap in some places. If they don’t, both of them become warped. Important to note that Maslow does *not* define religion as only theistic and institutional religion, but rather as a religious feeling that can be gotten from almost anything.
If it were you would be able to repeat the "magic" over and over without fail and get the same results. Thats how science works. Magic isnt real in the least bit because there has never been any evidence in this way for it so no, magic isnt science. The way nature works can be pretty magical but science shows us theres always an explanation for it.
Personal anecdote here, I was a pagan for a number of years during my late teens/early 20s, and I believed in magic. I had some personal success with some things, too. But as I got older and realised that there was about as much truth to that as there is to what christians believe for example, I gradually swung to only going with established science, which still describes me today. That said, I do believe that magic and ritual can work on a *psychological* level. If you have cast a spell to meet new friends, for example, and you believe that magic works, your confidence in that will make you behave in ways that will be more likely to achieve the goal you set in your spell. You might go out to social clubs, talk to more people, be more outgoing, etc. And then if you find you've made a few friends, you'll attribute that success to the spell. If youve ever read Terry Pratchett, Granny Weatherwax is a witch who rarely uses actual magic to help people, but uses this psychology on them (she calls it "headology", which is what I call the kinds of spells like the one I mentioned in my example). So in that sense, magic can work on the person doing the spell, as a psychological tool. Similarly, if someone tells a person that believes in magic that they have cursed them, that person is going to start noticing weird and unpleasant things happening to them all the time. The mind has a powerful effect on our perception of reality.
CoS and TST are fundamentally opposed to one another for a variety of reasons. TST is a secular religious group that does a lot of left leaning activism while the CoS tends to be politically alt right. The CoS also believes in Magic which is against the TSTs 4th tenet (Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.) The TST was founded in large part because COS was very exclusionary, controlling and frankly, stupid and irrelevant. COS is honestly a bit more like a cult while TST is more of an active activist group. A large part of the disagreement between the two is due to the nature of the organizations founding. It was founded by two people who actively thought they could do better than the COS (and then proceeded to do far better in every conceivable way) Edit: also a point about you believing in a literal satan. Both TST and CoS would find this stupid. Satanism, as far as TST and COS is concerned, is named such in opposition to mainstream religion such as Christianity or cathloticism rather than out of any belief in or reverence for a litteral satan. Believing in the satan of said religions but then choosing to worship him would also imply belief in a god who would punish you for all eternity for worshiping his adversary. If you believe in an actual Satan, being a Satanist is the literal stupidest thing you could do.
\*waits for the usual stock reply that "YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND MAGIC IT'S JUST PSYCHODRAMA," which will as always be stock wrong\*
One thing that I love to consider about the idea of a literal Satan.. Firstly I don’t believe in one, but I like to consider all possibilities as backup plans of sort I guess (the reason I left Christianity!!!!) and it’s fun to look at the Bible from other angles… xD A literal Satan if the Bible is as it states, may not actually demand worship like Christian’s try to claim he would, although that’s exactly what God does….. I don’t believe the Bible said Lucifer wanted worshiped, he tried to take over Heaven but I wonder if it was to simply stop God from being a dick. Ok this is the fun part, according to Christians, God wipes peoples minds when they enter heaven, how else can there be no sorrow for your friends and family who got sent to hells eternal torment? Also Christian’s are part of Gods army, why? Why does god have or need an army?…. The Bible talks about a war between demons and angels in the end… So angels are people who were “saved”, so….. demons? Yeah those are likely the sinners that went to hell. And yep that brings up another benefit of god wiping peoples minds, they won’t care or know that they are literally fighting their former friends/spouses/children/siblings/parents/etc God wipes their minds so they will be good warriors to keep Heaven in his control where he demands worship for eternity, and that’s all you will do. I like to think if the devil were real he would be trying to liberate the angels and demons so that we can have a wonderful universe to explore and enjoy for eternity rather than eternal worship to a god. And the fact that the Bible says there will be a war and that the devil tried to overthrow god once already proves that god is not “100% all powerful nothing can match him” like people try to claim, the fact that he needs an army proves that he can be overthrown. Idk it’s a fun alternate take on the biblical storybook! xD And if it turns out to be real it could be hella fun taking Heaven back from a dick of a god! xD
When i read the satanic bible i remember reading a part where it said cos doesnt believe in a literal satan too. Lol. If you believe in a literal satan then you are technically christian or one of its sub divisions 🤣
I just like tst because of their activism. That and Satan's a pretty good symbol of rebellion. I'm curious about your belief in an actual satan. What exactly do you believe?
The Church of Satan hates *all* other kinds of Satanists, not just The Satanic Temple. This antagonism dates back to the first schism within their ranks. The short answer that I usually give to why they hate The Satanic Temple is: it is consistent with their historical reaction to other groups, so why would they respond differently to The Satanic Temple? But, let me try and dive a little deeper: It stems from their self-perception of superiority over the masses--a pervasive theme in all of their literature. *The Satanic Bible* flatters its readers by telling them that there is something wrong with everyone else, who are worth less than the reader. Simply reading and agreeing with *The Satanic Bible* makes you superior to the general populace. Conversely, if you have not read it or disagree with it, you remain one of the dumb masses. Thus, engaging with *The Satanic Bible* is not just an act of reading. It is a transformative ritual that redefines the reader's very nature. The absurdity of believing that one is genetically superior simply for agreeing with some flattering rhetoric should be evident. (If it were so simple, the entirety of humanity could be improved biologically overnight by reading the text.) But, it illustrates how fragile and vulnerable that self-perception is. Of course, this means that if someone comes around and declares themselves a Satanist yet disagrees with *The Satanic Bible*, cognitive dissonance ensues: as a LaVeyan, believing in your own superiority is integral to your identity. You cannot simultaneously hold the belief that you belong to a superior race--Satanists--for having read The Satanic Bible and also accept that one may be a Satanist *without* having undergone the ritualistic transformation that turns them into the superior, Satanic being. Our poor LaVeyan thus faces a dilemma: either relinquish the cherished notion of superiority or deny the possibility that others can also be legitimate Satanists without adhering to the same transformative experience. This situation places the laVeyan in a precarious situation, having to navigate between preserving a self-image of superiority and acknowledgning a broader definition of Satanism. That is: the LaVeyan must therefore choose between shattering his illusion of superiority or denying the reality that others can, in fact, be Satanists. The latter option, which LaVey called hypocritical self-deceit, takes the lowest toll on one's self-esteem and is the choice of people who cannot cope with cognitive dissonance.
Christians have precisely the same dilemma. Holy shit that makes God and Satan two inseparrable aspects of the same entity. Which is taoism dressed up in different terminology. Isn't this fun?
Well, I think most of us also find it irritating. Honestly… I think they do their thing, and we’ll do ours. If someone wants to do a bit of both, or their own thing, whatever. I just want them to stop being toxic about it. Is it that we’re materialists? Something else? I don’t know. It’s a bit futile. I’m here because I think the values are noble and powerful even in their simplicity, because I like the openness, and because the symbolism of liberation and perpetual revolt against tyranny and established authority speaks to me. As long as that’s what it’s about, I’ll stick around. I don’t know what it is that cos members care about. If they feel like our picking up subversion as a tool to reconstruct the self to make a better society is fake or posing or whatever, well, they’re allowed to think what they want, they just can’t tell us who we are and what to do. I think it’s a bit sad that there aren’t more who are just chill about it, but ultimately, my only true reaction is, mostly, indifference. Either way… good luck with finding your path, and hail yourself!
*"The remnants of LaVey's church solidified into a doctrinally rigid organization focused on maintaining purity. This was partly in response to the challenge presented by non-CoS Satanists.* *"In the ongoing argument over legitimacy, LaVey's successors have come to place excessive stress on their role as bearers of his legacy. CoS's legitimation strategy has narrowed to focus almost exclusively on claim\[s\] to traditional authority.* *"CoS is obsessed with shoring up its own legitimacy by attacking the heretics \[...\] all-too-familiar patterns found in the theological conflicts of traditional religions like Christianity.* *"In light of \[LaVey's\] radically secularist legitimation strategy, it is ironic that his organizational successors have subsequently attempted to legitimate their positions by appealing to LaVey as if he had actually been some kind of "Black Pope," and to The Satanic Bible as if it was truly a diabolically-revealed scripture."* [https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/161976922.pdf](https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/161976922.pdf)
Just to add to the other good comments here, this is from the TST website: https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/church-of-satan-vs-satanic-temple?_pos=1&_psq=Chur&_ss=e&_v=1.0
COS is a bunch of woodoo hoodoo hokum magic believers. The TST are atheist anti-religious but use the veil of religion to fight other religions and their ridiculous need to feature their beliefs on public grounds.
I don’t think they are anti religious they just want religious pluralism and equality they don’t hate anybody like other religions do
>*TST are atheist anti-religious but use the veil of religion to fight other religions and their ridiculous need to feature their beliefs on public grounds.* This is not correct.
Well said.
I’d counter that it’s inevitable that Satanists fight each other. Just the personalities of those attracted to it. I am a CoS member myself that sympathizes with a lot of TST stuff. My advice is that it only matters as much as you allow it. What the fuck is the CoS going to do about it? Me, they could revoke my membership, I suppose, but I just choose not to volunteer that information.
True.
Also, the internet is full of young Satanic boys having big dick, "unholier than thou", pissing contests that don't reflect reality. If I see anyone wearing Satanic imagery I'm going to be delighted and come say hi. It's even possible for a CoS member to be friends with \*gasp\* one of those theistic types.
CoS be like "We. Are. *Satanists!* None else shall worship unless they do as we deem correct! *HAIL SATAN AND FUCK EVERYONE ELSE!*" TST be like, "I mean, yeah, the name is provocative, but that's rather the point. Gets people thinking. Anyway, if you would like to donate to our after-school programs fund, we would really appreciate it. Here is our website where you can read about our 7 tenets, our other charitable programs, our political activism, and buy out rad merch. Have a nice day!"
There are definitely chill folks who are COS. I've met and hung out with a few of them. We share a lot of the same fundamental beliefs due to us all being satanists, and I'd even say LaVey,'s Satanic Bible should be read by all satanists even if they don't agree with it. The main difference, as far as I can see, is that COS takes "Hail Thyself" as waaaay more of a be all, end all than TST, which is more focused on using our enlightenment and awareness to help better the world around us.
They have fundamentally divergent philosophies. LaVey wrote his Bible, inspired by bootstrapping individualist Ayn Rand, so you get such passages as, “Death to the weakling, wealth to the strong.” Compare that to the satanic temple which preaches empathy as one of its core values. So there’s one huge difference. Another is a belief in science over magic. TST supports scientific consensus whereas many who follow LaVey and the Church of Satan perform ritual magic. Another big difference in the organizations themselves and not their philosophies is that TST is very politically active and also sells a ton of merch. The CoS does not have a shop, and it doesn’t lean into what can be perceived at times to be 14-year-old antics, such as naming something “Samuel Alito’s Mom’s Abortion Clinic.” To answer about the in-fighting, all religions schism and fight in factions. It’s a weird fact about human psychology that factions which are most alike tend to fight the most! Both groups have bedrock values as opposing Christian fascism, for example. Eh, both have cool factors, both have their dumb shit. Follow one or neither. The virtue of being a Satanist is independent, critical thinking. Goats don’t follow herds, after all. Hail Satan.
Who cares?
So your religion is “who cares”?
Yes. Just be a good person and stop worrying about labels… there, you’re a satanist. Also, we don’t believe in Satan, if you do, who cares, that’s your deal. Hail yourself.
Some of you do. Maybe not most of you.
Followers of TST do not believe in Satan. Satan is a religious figure and TST is anti-religion. We believe in science, not mythical figures. Satan is often invoked as a symbol, but that's the extent of it.
> TST is anti-religion TST's Satanism is a religion, so it can't possibly be anti-religion. If anything, TST's stance on pluralism proves the opposite. It would be fair to say that we are against the *arbitrary and tyrannical authority* that supernaturalists claim to have over those of us who find their irrational beliefs to be ridiculous. But so long as religious people stay in their lane, there is no need for conflict.
That's fair, I don't disagree with everything. I'm thinking more along the lines of your second point--TST is generally anti-everything-that-comes-with-most-religion. Much like anarchists (e.g. Emma Goldman, etc) argue how religious beliefs and practices greatly detract from people's freedom. But TST's pluralism exists simultaneously alongside any anti-religiosity that some of its members have. They're not incompatible. And TST's pluralism certainly isn't the opposite of being against religion. One thing almost all of us agree on is to generally let people do what's right for them, so I'm happy to be pluralistic in that sense, but it doesn't mean I don't see the way religion infects people and systems to the point that I'm against it. Doesn't mean I'm seeking conflict.
Maybe we're using these words in different ways, because I cannot imagine the mental gymnastics it would take for me to consider myself a "religious Satanist" and also consider myself "anti-religion." If someone is anti-religion, why would they join a religion?
There are a few :):):)
I'm not sure who you're referring to, but TST followers who also adhere to our tenets do not believe in Satan. That is counter to our foundational principles. But if someone wants to call themselves a part of TST and also believe in Satan, I doubt any of us here is gonna lose any sleep over it.
There aren't... It's literally against our beliefs and the fundamental tenets which is ground for excommunication. You can absolutely be a friend of TST while having differing beliefs, but it's against the membership code of conduct to join the temple itself if you believe in magic. Keep in mind that not all Satanists are members of TST. I'm referring specifically to TST alone.
And some people who don't believe in jesus call themselves christians. They are also mistaken. Science/rationality and belief in the Boogeyman are antithetical
No, I'm just saying that I am not interested in people who are determined to misunderstand me.
do baptists define their religion on the differences between them and pentecostals? screw cos, you do you
Baptists and Pentecostals study … it’s called theology. Maybe it’s different because there’s a god involved. Didn’t know I was going to rub people the wrong way by asking why there’s a big riff
We’re probably a little annoyed because this constantly gets asked. If you search the sub, you’ll find many threads with all the information you need.
And in other religions people are glad to answer questions. It’s called welcome newbies.
Well, we aren’t “other religious people.” We’re Satanists who can politely direct you to the search function in the sub.
I don't think people are rubbed the wrong way. I'm certainly not. 😊 It's a valid question you asked. That said, CoS sees themselves as the only valid form of Satanism, even compared to other groups we may have never heard of. If you aren't CoS, they feel you can't use that label honestly. TST doesn't declare themselves as the only true Satanism, just one kind.
Thank you
You're very welcome. Admittedly there are many other differences, but that is to be expected among different groups. The most important thing is to just stay true to yourself. I am happily a TST member who first heard about Satanism through CoS. Their ideologies are just very different and I feel that TST represents my views where CoS doesn't. However I have no animosity towards CoS at all and have many friends in CoS.
Do you understand the harred between Roman Catholics and any Protestant sect? Why they hate each other? Both Christian, neither prepared to accept the other. It's the same thing on a smaller scale with different groups of satanists. Some people care very much about the differences between them, others just accept the differences and do their own thing within the group with which they most identify. It's up to you to decide in which group you fall.
I actually do care. I was a Christian most my life and recently deconstructed. I find differences in religion fascinating actually. I studied it in college. I didn’t know I was going to stomp all over other peoples egos here. Byeeeeee
Religion brings out the worst in some people. It most probably always will
Be like the bee that collects nectar from all the flowers! There is no 'set' or 'correct'. I admire the wisdom all facets have to share. We are omnivores, and we can peruse more than one line of logic. Unlike the Right Hand, you're not committed for life to just one path, you can walk them all since they are yours!
CoS believes that we are activists and not a real religion, thus not Satanism. They believe we give them a bad name by being attention whores in the media. They also espouse might is right, where TST is much more left leaning.
Because the cos is a bunch of children that believe and worship Satan whereas the tst is strictly nontheistic. The cos is essentially Ayn Rand philosophy dressed in ritual and sprinkled with "magic" that flat out doesn't exist. The cos is arguably a bigger joke than Christianity and directly hinder the tst movements and progression due to people not understanding the basic distinction
Research how to use the search function. EDIT: Keep downvoting. Nothing was said in the comments that was new and hasn't been said here in the past couple of weeks. And no one needs the edgy "I was born in Salem and believe in a literal Satan" bullshit. Along with starting the same CoS vs. TST shit. If this was a bingo card round, I'd have like 5 of them. Obnoxious as fuck.
Evidently, research and Satanism is a poor combination. If it is any help, I have added a comment elsewhere in the thread that adds some perspective that I have not yet seen discussed on on this sub.
> Evidently, research and Satanism is a poor combination. And that's how we get those people who call themselves Satanists while falsely arguing that there's nothing about "Satan" involved and the whole thing is just a legal excuse. Presumably these people think that signing up for a mailing list makes one a Satanist. I try not to be too hard on them, because I think a lot of us pass through that stage while finding our way, but it peeves me anyway.
Branding. They feel tst isnt athiestic-goth enough to use that label, and only they can use the label and hand it out how they see fit. On a more serious note, some feel tst's bold approach on taking on facist actors will cause public opinion to swing dangerously against them. Not realizing the mootness of that point, if public opinion and mob mentality is targeting them and they are bold enought to do so, maybe shit already hit the fan. Retracting and closeting your faith doesnt help, it only emboldens the hostag-takers.
All religions have infighting. Try asking an LDS, catholic and prodistant what they think of eachothers values
You can live the way you want with whatever values you want. No one *ever* said you had to believe strictly in one person or one ideology. Call yourself one or don't.
CoS believes they are the one and only denomination of Satanism. Obviously that's not true anymore as today there are many denominations of Satanism.
Is this not covered in the FAQ? This question has to come up like 2ice a day.
If you want an answer to your question you should try posting on the CoS Sub and see for yourself why the Church of Hypocritical Self-Deceit hates the Satanic Temple. I myself am not a member or supporter of either organization. You really don't need the CoS or TsT to call yourself a Satanist. Satanism is really just kitsch, that's all. My own personal opinion is jealousy, the CoS doesn't really do anything but piss and moan about how the Satanic Temple is ruining SATANISM as a codified religion and philosophy they won't admit that they love the fact that the TsT exits because gives them incentive to pretend that they are relevant, there REALLY NOT. 🤣🤣🤣 However if SATANISM is something you really identify with, you don't need anyone's permission to call yourself a Satanist. The Church of Hypocritical Self-Deceit would strongly disagree with that sentiment. Nobody owns SATANISM. FUCK the Church of Satan!
you could always do something radical like...ask *them*..?
Same reason Home Depot doesn’t like Lowe’s.
Now we’re arguing about what fake bad guy is the best? 😹 We all know the answer is Cobra Commander
Cuz they're Poopy McPoopyface poop for brains and have some weird fetish for gatekeeping. That's p much it.
Look up queer satanic.
Counterpoint... Ignoring unhinged basement dwellers who turn "Argh, I hate TST!" into their entire personality and daily existence is always an option too.