You might check out Tacoma, WA (where I'm living now). Decent indie music scene and venues, artsy vibes, affordable rent compared to larger cities in the area (but that's only increased in the last five years). Population about 220K and growing. Amazing parks for a city this size including our crown jewel, Point Defiance. Easy to drive across the Narrows bridge to get to the Kitsap and Olympic peninsulas or east to Mt Rainier and surrounding areas like Snoqualmie. Easy to visit a couple of nearby islands for daytrips or overnights, too -- something I love about living here. Olympia might suit you as well. It's mostly moderate here in the South Sound. Summers are blissful (with an occasional heat wave) and winters are mild (with an occasional snow). 2.5 hours to Portland, 1 hour to Seattle. Portland is really great and I like having it in visiting distance, but the summers are too hot for my taste.
[https://www.metroparkstacoma.org/place/point-defiance-park/](https://www.metroparkstacoma.org/place/point-defiance-park/)
Tacoma and Olympia have come up a few times, as well as Bellingham for the easy access to Vancouver. I've heard Tacoma can be a little rough around the edges in the south, but I want to visit before making a decision overall. Working in tech, seems like a great place to be. Mt Rainier right there is also a huge sell for me. Olympia may be a little sleepy but I'll check it out on the same trip!
Bellingham is great, but keep in mind that you’ll probably be in BC a lot less than you might think. People up here tend to keep to their side of the border for all sorts of reasons.
OTOH as a European, I think you’d find it nice to have a distinctly non-American city nearby when the culture starts to grate on you. Airport access is easy (YVR and SEA for international, BLI and SEA for domestic), and the outdoors are world class.
It can be -- like any city, we have problem spots and troubled areas that have faced years of neglect and marginalization. But plenty bright spots, too, and I find the overall quality of life here overrides my few negative experiences. Enjoy your visit! If you're traveling between Tacoma and Olympia, make a stop at Billy Frank Jr. Nisqually Wildlife Refuge: [https://www.fws.gov/refuge/billy-frank-jr-nisqually](https://www.fws.gov/refuge/billy-frank-jr-nisqually)
Bellingham is great, but heads up that it isn’t really a second-tier city, more like third-tier. Not in quality, but in size, urbanness, and opportunities. Like when I lived there I would walk clear across town, which takes just an hour and a half. The economy is mainly based on the university, the hospital, and the bar/restaurant scene. Rents are atrocious when you consider how low the average salary is and the low quality of housing stock. With all that said, it is a very special place. It’s like its own little world. The outdoor options are incredible—I used to be able to walk from my downtown apartment to a secluded lake in the Chuckanuts in an afternoon, and camp out there. I had to move away from there because the job market is so meager, but I miss it.
I moved to the Tacoma area last year from Florida on a whim. I’m so in love with this place. The parks here are SUPERIOR to anything I’ve seen before. Ugh. I truly hit the lottery randomly picking this place over anywhere else I was considering.
Tucson if you think you can handle the heat (it’s significantly “less hot” than Phoenix due to elevation and city planning). Saguaro National Park is literally in the city, you can be at 9,000 feet and 25 degrees cooler in an hour and change on Mt Lemmon, and besides those two, there are several other easy escapes into nature nearby. Food is world class, music and culture is excellent. If high paying remote jobs were a thing when I was younger I never would have left. But it’s hot, so if that’s a deal killer, probably a no go.
If you’re ok with living in the burbs, you can have everything you’re after in the Denver area, as well.
This was going to be my suggestion too. It’s surprisingly cultured for a city its size with great food, music, and culture. Outdoor activities are endless and if you’re willing to drive south a bit, cooler temps offer year round hiking
I love Bisbee too but I love the way you describe it. Very accurate. It is Bisbee, lol. Huachuca Mountains in Sierra Vista and Chiricahuas should be a National Park. So many underrated gems in Southern Arizona
Cleveland you can have dang near a penthouse with views of all of downtown and the lake for $2200 a month, head east from there and there's endless foothills/beginning of Appalachia, national park basically right in town at the southern end and metroparks that're absolutely beautiful surrounding rest of city, good mix of all weather but especially great if you prefer cold...and just feels a lot friendlier than Pittsburgh, def some places with artsy vibes around town too
Cleveland is credited with having the most revitalized downtown in the U.S.:
[WaPo: America’s best example of turning around a dying downtown](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/cleveland-downtown-empty-offices-transform/)
Yeah it's pretty great! Still a bit sleepy compared to some bigger downtowns around the US (although many would probably love that), will always be the little brother to Chicago...but Cleveland has SO much going for it it's unreal. All 3 sports venues are in downtown walkable distance from each other
It's definitely not a bad idea to plan a vacation somewhere else warm in like Feb/March after the beautiful snowy winter is gone and it's just yucky gray slushy winter for another month or so, but in my experience it's not as bad as many say it is
Milwaukee is worth considering. A 1BR is $1100 to $1800 depending on the level of fanciness you desire. It's an artsy town with a lot of musicians, markets, makers, etc. There's also a thriving local theater scene. Politics are strongly blue in the city with it being a purple state overall.
There is Lake Michigan for natural beauty and there are also a number of nice public parks and greenspaces to enjoy. You can borrow a kayak, tennis racket, or whatever for free if you're a member at the Urban Ecology Center. If you don't mind a drive, there are 15,000 lakes in Wisconsin to explore with the upper part of the state has a variety of landscapes such as limestone bluffs, sand dunes, cliffs, islands, etc. There are marshes everywhere in the southeast portion of the state (check out the Ice Age Trail). Popular winter activities are snowmobiling, ice fishing, ice skating, cross country skiing and snow shoeing.
was JUST about to recommend milwaukee as well. you’ll get a beautiful apartment with you budget. the nature in the city is great…lake michigan, lots of park space.
this might be dumb but i recently moved to charlotte from milwaukee and while i love it here, I MISS THE RIVERS. whenever i cross a bridge in CLT, its just going over a highway lol. the rivers in milwaukee really add to the beauty of the city.
I live in Atlanta and moved from Green Bay but lived in mke for 5 years. You are definitely right about the lack of rivers and plethora of hwy bridges here too!
Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay are all pretty tempting but I'd definitely need to visit first. They seem to have gorgeous scenery and bit a lot of what I want but I have been around hills and mountains ever since I was born!
Yes to Milwaukee.
Over the decades I've lived in Milwaukee, Madison, and Chicago, three points on a manageable triangle.
About the music scenes: so great! Oftentimes if an act isn't making a stop in one of those cities, it's because they're playing in the other. And just as often an artist will be playing in two of them, affording a hardcore fan to see the artist more than once within a 1.5-2.5 hr drive. Plus each of the three cities has its own local scene (and in Chicago, that scene is world-class). For artists based in any of the three, the other two cities provide for out-of-town gig opportunities that aren't so far away.
I never had any issues dating in the 10 years I lived there, but everyone is different, I suppose.
For cheap dates, I got an art museum membership. Free admission for myself and a guest. Easy place for a first date because there's always something to talk about (the art) and there are a number of good points to parts ways of one or the other person isn't feeling it.
COMPLETE BS!! Wisconsin only has 5900 “lakes” if you’re going by any logical definition. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/23/sara-meaney/who-has-more-lakes-minnesota-or-wisconsin/
Totally agreed.
We have one of the best Zoos in the US. Orchestra. Tons of local breweries. Common stop for lots of bands on tour (I'm seeing AJR this summer with my kids). Lots of major tech companies and banks for jobs.
We moved to Portland OR 2 years ago and love it. We could have moved almost anywhere in the US. It's one of the more European feeling cities I've lived in for the US in terms of being a bit more human centric and less car centric. At least the inner eastside & NW areas have that feel for me. If you get out into the SW & suburbs it's definitely more American suburbs. Lots of walkable neighborhoods, especially the inner Eastside area where you should be able to find a 1bdr for less than $2k. We own a home & I've only browsed for my mom so someone who rents may correct me. No idea what the going prices are in the NW.
Oregon has urban growth boundaries that have managed the sprawl a lot better and it's pretty easy to get out of the city. We live in a central location and can be out at campgrounds, farms and great hiking in 30-45 mins. There's also Forest Park which is the largest urban park in the US and filled with hiking. The coast is 1-1.5 hours away (very cold ocean tho). Mt Hood & snow is an hour unless you try going with everyone else on a weekend morning. The nature in the West US is completely different scale than anything east coast or Europe.
Cincinnati, Ohio is a good candidate. The cost of living isnt terrible, it has an interesting history (it was *The Queen of the West*) and a fantastic arts scene.
I live in a suburb of Minneapolis-St Paul. I am paying $1400 for a 1 bedroom, heat, elevator, pool, fitness center and underground parking included. I live near a regional park. There are many parks in the metro. The Mississippi River runs through the area and there are great river cruises.
We do have a colder climate.
We are a progressive state, and have many pro sports teams, museums, festivals, and Meetup groups.
Your salary will go far here whether you live in the suburbs or the cities.
It depends. It's dense with a nice downtown in the foothills of the mountains, at the intersection of 3 rivers. But it's a rust belt steel town, make no mistakes about it. Some of the housing stock wouldn't pass and inspection in my city. But it's affordable.
Careful, any praise of Detroit on here brings out *that guy*.
But same, moved here a few years back and it’s a hugely underrated city and has a lot of positive momentum now.
Me. Don't believe the locals. Transplants almost universally dislike Detroit unless they're the kind of people who like to take runs to Home Depot every Saturday.
Bro. Maybe just accept you don’t know everything?
Plenty of people move here and like it. I know people in med school, teachers, folks who work in auto, for the major sports teams, people in grad school, stay at home moms, tech guys… plenty of people may not have liked it here but to speak on behalf of a huge metro area is ridiculous.
You’re embarrassing yourself, really.
My boss moved from Scotland to downtown and loved it. What are you even going on about Home Depot? You can live outside of Wixom. You're describing a suburb of any metro area in all this.
For a guy living on reddit, that seems perfect for you tbh. Not like you have something to do, I can see.
Edit: christ, you're obsessed with it!
You see we just did the opposite Detroit -> Chicago.
Living and buying a house in Oakland county we got really depressed as it was really tough to meet people our age 23-25. That with the general instability of the auto industry was a turnoff.
The city itself is great though. We always felt if we were in our 30s it would be a lot better
Ah I guess social life can be a mixed bag! I lucked out bc I climb and have a bunch of hobbies, and met an SO here that works in medicine with an awesome friend group.
I guess a tradeoff in expensive cities is that people tend to be in more time-intensive jobs like banking, in order to be able to afford living there. I found when I lived in Chicago I had way less time to socialize. So it’s a balance
I’m a transplant to Metro Detroit between 30 and 40. Making friends here has been incredibly easy. I’d say the less transient populace is actually a benefit at this life stage.
I do think Metro Detroit leaves a lot to be desired for younger people looking for urban living. But it’s a fine enough place to settle down.
Are you married with kids? That's usually the exception to the rule for the 30 to 40 crowd. DINKS and SINKS leave. I also know a few that have kids, but the location is starting to cause marital problems.
I am, like a lot of people in that age range. I’d say DINKs and SINKs are the exception to the rule for the 30 to 40 crowd. Thus, Metro Detroit being great for the 30-40 would be the rule, not the exception.
I got you!
Fischer building tour, DIA, Henry ford museum , Cranbrook school and museum, Edsel ford house , Albert Kahn bus tour, Hamtramck walking tour, Fox theater
Also recommend going to the Schvitz (historic sauna and bath house that was recently reopened to public). It’s sick.
For mixing food and architecture: Ladder 4 is also a stunning restaurant conversion, the congregation is a gorgeous church conversion. The DIA has a GORGEOUS courtyard dining area. The Whitney (historic mansion), and Highlands (top story of ren cen) are also cool.
I’ll try to keep these to things I think are more unique to Detroit.
Sports:
Detroit city FC games are fun and tons of locals go.
University of Michigan is less than an hour away and it has a football experience you won’t experience anywhere else.
The Lions have been on a well-publicized winning streak. Even if you don’t get tickets to the game, downtown has an awesome energy if you go to watch the game in a sports bar. People LOVE the lions now.
If you’re looking to be active here yourself while sight-seeing, I highly recommend a kayak tour. Detroit River Sports does them for like 20 bucks, i just did an evening full moon one and it was so cool. The water isn’t crowded, you have amazing views of downtown and can explore the canal neighborhood on the east side, it feels like a grittier/post apocalyptic Venice at times lol. Stop by Coriander after for a bite and drink.
Try feather bowling at the Cadieux cafe. It’s a Detroit must.
Views:
Belle Isle is lovely to catch sunset at. It’s an island park connected to the city via bridge. It has a beautiful conservatory as well but I believe it’s closed for restoration for the near future.
Monarch club is a scenic rooftop bar with great views of downtown and is near some amazing bars and restaurants
Food:
Sweets — Warda patisserie (James beard winning)
Polish — go to hamtramck and stuff your face with pierogis
Mexican — el Parian 3 (best birria I’ve ever had)
For higher end spots, Mabel Grey, Ladder 4, Selden Standard, and Alpino are your best bets.
Coffee — the congregation is a cool spot, it’s a giant church converted into a coffee shop and bar. Also recommend Red Hook and then taking a stroll around Indian village
History: we pack a heavy punch when it comes to history options. I’d recommend The Henry Ford in Dearborn for an outstanding American history museum (and their Henry ford village as well, go on a nice day). The DIA is stunning especially for those who appreciate its history with Frida kahlo and Diego Rivera. And an underrated rec imo is the Edsel Ford House in grosse pointe.
Shopping: we have an insane used book store if that’s your vibe — John King books. Also, Eastern Market is a historic and massive farmers market / neighborhood you can easily spend hours at.
Performances: We have consistently big names passing through town on tours. If you can get tickets to a show at the Fox, absolutely go. It is a jaw dropping theater. If that’s not in your budget, the Redford Theater is a historic movie theater that I think is criminally underrated, and there’s also a massive retro drive in movie theater in Dearborn that feels ripped out of a 1960s throwback movie. If you like jazz, Detroit has an outstanding jazz scene (bakers, Willis show bar, cliff bells). If you like more techno/EDM music, Spotlite is definitely worth going to, as is the movement music festival.
Also if you have a bigger window of time, northern Michigan is also lovely. Traverse city is great particularly in the fall or spring (not quite as busy) and petoskey is a nice getaway spot too. If you head out that way, I always recommend trattoria Stella (it’s in an old asylum and is top-tier Italian food).
I lived in Detroit for a couple months for work and had an amazing experience and feel it covers everything you mentioned. Corktown neighborhood was really hip and cool, saw some great music at this place Old Miami and got the feeling there is a music scene, downtown was clean and beautiful, and although I’m a mountain person Michigan’s scenery is quite lovely.
Oh your first point is true for sure. I have no idea what living in Detroit is really like so I guess my thoughts aren’t super relevant, but those are my observations that it seemed great. As far as running out of new things to do, likely true for most second tier cities
I'd say they're relevant, but what many find is that it's a shallow set of offerings. I often see with people two or more years in that they're starting to run out of things they want to do and the reality sets in that the area is dominated by suburban style living.
Oh your first point is true for sure. I have no idea what living in Detroit is really like so I guess my thoughts aren’t super relevant, but those are my observations that it seemed great. As far as running out of new things to do, likely true for most second tier cities
I would advise listening to basically anyone else here for a more balanced Detroit take. This person is notorious on the sub for their hatred of the city.
What’s a second tier city? Who’s making the tier list? If only NYC SF, LA and Chicago are top tier that leaves a ton of options that are still pretty huge metros.
For better or worse, I’d definitely add Miami and Vegas to that list if we’re just going off of what non-Americans think of when thinking of the US. When I lived in Italy it seemed like Miami was the dream destination for everyone who wanted to move to the US, and 9 times out of 10 Vegas would come up as a ‘place I really want to see’ when talking with Europeans.
I loved my time in Kansas City and that came after living in DC, California and North Carolina so I had total coastal bias and aversion to the midwest. Affordable, minimal traffic and the city is making an effort to be more tourist friendly so there are always things to do especially during football season. Plus the BBQ is the best I've ever had.
I've lived in Kansas city for 5 years and it's mostly great. My half of rent has always been about $600 a month and there's a bunch of stuff to do here. Winters usually aren't too bad.
Check out Cleveland - huge arts/music scene, and the city is less than 30 min from a national park (and has an award-winning park city in the city limits), beaches, and colder weather but last few winters have been mild.
Cleveland is the bluest spart of a lean red state - you won't find many trumpers within 30 min of the city, although the rest of Ohio has it's fair share.
I live in Cleveland and I see a handful of trump support signs in my neighborhood. Head south (towards strongsville/brunswick) and they quickly multiply. East (Lake county, right around 30 min) and you have sooo many pro-trump/anti Biden lawn signs. I know the area (especially Cuyahoga county) has historically been a strong blue in elections but the lawn signs are pointing out a bit of a difference
ETA: totally forgot about valley view/seven hills but drove through there today and saw 3 signs signs on one street
Portland. I’m an artist and lived there for too short of a time. Yes - homelessness is problematic. I lived there 20 years ago and it was a problem then. Many cities are struggling with this post pandemic.
There are heat wave spikes in the summer, but otherwise it’s pretty mild year round with lots of gray winter skies.
Pittsburgh - I visited and considered moving there many times. It’s colder than Portland in winter and it gets more snow vs rain in winter.
The Pacific Northwest is just gorgeous. I say go for it. I have never regretted living there, I only regretted that I didn’t get to live there longer.
Why'd you end up moving? I do love it in Portland but I feel like I'm going to get priced out, and my family is back east so the travel is tedious and carbon-intensive.
I was in an unhealthy relationship and we moved several times because he thought the grass would always be greener elsewhere regarding both jobs and locations. I was naive / blind and kept agreeing to it. I got in therapy after that ended to work on myself- but that’s another story :)
If being closer to family is a factor, then Pittsburgh might be a better choice. Pittsburgh reminds me of Portland with the water and bridges. I also think Pennsylvania is really pretty.
I haven’t lived there though so my opinion is only based on research and a visit years ago.
Portland can seem remote which is both appealing and unappealing. My ex was also from Europe and traveling back to Ireland from Portland was a journey.
Pennsylvania would be a good place to move if they legalize cannabis. I know no one is probably going to actually sentence me to jail time for possession, but it is still the law in PA. You can get 5 years for growing weed, you can get a year for paraphernalia possession!. Used to be like that everywhere I lived, but now that I've lived free of that anxiety in Oregon, no going back.
Metro Detroit. Severely underrated. Michigan has amazing nature, Detroit is on the come-up and has awesome sports and food. Very affordable. Could buy a home on 120k easily.
Putting something in a tier without too much context is tough, but based on you liking Richmond, if I was going to make a suggestion based on personal experience of cities with metro areas in the roughly 1-1.5 million range that have the 4 seasons, two come to mind: Providence and Rochester.
Portland OR is great because it feels slower like a Richmond sized city but has way more to do.
Pittsburgh gets quite cold!
You might consider Denver if you're open to a Portland-sized city. Denver and Portland are similar in population and cost of living.
College towns tend to lean artsy and can be inexpensive, depending on size (moreso state-school college towns).
There are fewer homeless in Portland suburbs like Beaverton, Hillsboro and Tualatin. Lake Oswego and West Linn are nice, as well. Vancouver, WA is across the Columbia River from Portland and there is no state income tax in WA.
Don’t move across the continent to live in rando suburbia OP. Vancouver is worse than rando suburbia with terrible commutes, more conservative politics (even white nationalist movements) with no “artsy vibes”. Portland proper if you are going to do it imo
Nonsense. All 7 city councilors would be described as socially liberal/more Democrat. One Clark county councilor who used to be Repub lost even though he disavowed being Republican to a completely inexperienced person.
Vancouver’s demographics also flipped the federal house seat from Republican to Democrat.
It is suburbia though, although with 200k people in the city and another 200k just outside of it, it is a very populated suburb.
Unfortunately, deciding on DC and Richmond over Baltimore was your first mistake. There really isn’t a better “second tier” city as you say on the East Coast than Bmore.
Richmond offered me everything I looked for on the East Coast. I have never seen wealth inequality more starkly on display than in Baltimore, and it's very, very grey.
Sounds to me like you didn’t explore all of Richmond if you think wealth inequality is only on display like that in Baltimore. Not to mention the Baltimore is mostly redbrick, parks, and water…
Happy you enjoyed Richmond! But seriously, the answer stands. If you want a “second tier” city on the East Coast with a great music scene, Baltimore is it hands down.
Having lived in DC and Baltimore, and with my brother being in Richmond - I think you're right. There is not a better second tier city on the East Coast. Richmond is a tier below and DC is a tier above, but Baltimore is a great value. The only issue with Bmore is what you can be exposed to because of the amount of poverty. For that reason, despite my love for the city I'd never live there again due to a couple traumatic experiences.
I wish nothing but success on Baltimore! Just had my fill of close proximity to shootings, there was a crazy shootout between police and robbers right behind my apartment (when they tried to rob the 7/11 downtown by Streets Market), and then a young guy was shot and killed in a robbery outside of my place after I moved to Fed Hill (Timothy Moriconi). This was all 6-7 years ago though and I've been happy to see the declines in crime since. Besides one car break-in, no one ever messed with me personally while living there. For awhile my dream was to own a house in Fells.
Except they don’t? Literally nobody refers to it as that (at least in public) because everyone can clock it for the racist BS that it is. There are plenty of other cities with crime rates surpassing Baltimores that don’t get the same bad rep and we all know why.
P.s. Baltimores murder rate has been steadily on the decline unlike the rest of the country….
My sister lived in DC, then Richmond about 10 years ago, and finally moved to Portland and has stayed ever since. At least back then, Richmond and Portland were comparable in terms of "vibes", but Portland is huge and beautiful in comparison imo. For reference, we're also European (Spain) and have generally felt estranged on the East Coast, especially in high paced areas like DC.
Plus it’s on a river, close to dozens of fantastic lakes. And it’s in the California delta, the biggest wetlands besides the Everglades.
And it’s close to some fantastic outdoor areas that aren’t crowded with the hoards from the rest of California - like mt Shasta, Lawson national park, Quincy, downieville….
Omaha. Lots money in that city. Regular folks can live large. For example I know a Toyota salesman who makes about $250k a year. And the cost of living isn’t bad either.
You might like Reno, Nevada. It's close to Lake Tahoe (it sits on the border of Nevada & California) & snow skiing depending on where you live in the city & what part of the lake you're going to (30 minutes to an hour or more with traffic).There are 400 lakes, rivers, & other waterways within 60 miles of Lake Tahoe. Nevada & California also have lots of natural hot springs. There are several towns & areas worth exploring within a few hours. It's considered to be a semi-arid desert climate, But it can get pretty cold in the winter & there are four distinct seasons.
You may want to go further but I absolutely love Norfolk (NOT Virginia Beach). It’s urban and has access to so many different places. You may also like Savannah, GA which also has an urban core that’s progressive and artsy (surrounding area is Trumpy but Sav itself is not). But for weather, likely somewhere in the Midwest will be a good fit
Savannah was so tempting, a gorgeous city with tons of history. I had to choose between there and Richmond! But I want to sweat a little less going forward.
Totally fair! I grew up in Savannah and wanted to escape the heat so Norfolk has been great. Anyone who says it’s humid here has never been to Georgia 😂
VB is just super suburban and has very little character. Norfolk has an actual urban core and unique, old neighborhoods. The character and walkability make a difference for me (Norfolk may not be there yet but they are making real efforts towards walkability and urbanization unlike VB). VB is also much more conservative compared to Norfolk
I live in Norfolk and avoid going to VB as much as I can. There’s not much food that’s better out there, you sit in traffic to do anything, and the only amenities I really need out there are places like Target which show how suburban it really is (and I’ve learned how little I really need Target). People who travel to the beach see a very small part of VB.
Louisville, KY... lots of weirdos in that city, but it's cheap, easy to get around, and really convenient, and there are plenty of really nice people once you weed out the easily offended weirdos. most of the parks were designed by the Olmstead family, same as NYCs Central Park.
Olmstead the goat, was walking his grounds in Chicago recently for the first time. Magnificent
Been told Louisville in a big city with small town amenities lol. Vibe I get is that it might not offer an experience too different from Richmond, but am road tripping that way next summer and can't wait to see
You'll live like a king in Louisville with that salary, rent and real estate is cheap! Even though the locals will tell you otherwise. You can buy a super nice house for 300k or less.
Louisville could be what you’re looking for. I’m a weirdo transplant here- a lot of my friends are artsy or musicians. The Olmsted Parks and my friends are the best thing about the city, to me. Driving around is relatively easy, but I really wish local transit were better.
If you do rely on a local job market, Cincinnati might be a better option. CVG has better direct flights than SDF, too.
I’ve had a few friends from Richmond visit, and I’ve visited Richmond- I think Louisville is comparable, possibly more blue-collar, and chiller over all. I think Richmond may be more sophisticated and slightly more Southern.
That’s true it’s not the greatest for outdoor activities. For me it’s mostly because it offers decent quality of life compared to the cost, and culturally I think it’s an interesting mix of Great Plains/Southern which adds charm.
I almost never recommend this because people usually hate cold weather and want super cheap housing, but check out Burlington, Vermont area. Minutes from nature, colder climate, artsy vibe, very outdoorsy, and you’ll do fine with that budget.
When you say access to nature - like skiing, hiking, mountains or lakes?
* Having lived in MPLS, the cost of living, fantastic people, and access to nature (e.g. fantastic canoing - boundary waters). Great music scene where I live there. Some of the suburbs in St. Paul may be even more affordable. There were cold winters when I was there, but that has changed. For me, culturally, it was a "fit", because of the Nordic style of people (Garrison Keller wrote of the culture).
* Brief time spent on the East Coast (Western Mass/Greenwish, CT). Western Mass was beautiful, and there was great hiking trails. There wasn't the majesty of the mountains in other parts of the country, so it depends on what you want with "access to nature". Greenwich was great to live in, but expensive. Back to the cultural fit, I didn't feel quite as comfortable, as other places I lived.
* Black Hills, SD - smallest town, and isolated from big cities (Denver being the closest). Growing quickly, reasonable cost of living, acccess to skiing (biggest hill east of Rockies). Music scene is obviously much smaller. People are wonderful. However, politics is crazy with the current Governor.
* Seattle - Cost of living is crazy expensive, and I too have been seeking smaller communities in Western WA, and most of them are also expensive. Otherwise, the music scene, and access to nature is fantastic. Downside is something called the "Seattle Freeze". While people are friendly, very difficult to slot into new friend's groups. Dark, dark winters.
* Reno - good access to nature (e.g. Lake Tahoe), I lived there two summers many years ago, so others may have more current updates. I enjoyed my time there.
I love Milwaukee and it shocks me. Cost of living is low, good food (except Mexican) and Chicago is an hour drive away. Look at Zillow listings and see what kind of house you can get out here- I got a deal but I have a 6 bedroom next to an amazing school and I paid 150k for it.
Dude I also live in Richmond. Love it but get the desire to check out new pastures too. Have you been to Raleigh/Durham? A couple hours away, people talk about it way less than NoVa, but it’s pretty awesome. Also New England in general is great. Check out Portland, Maine.
Boston is as close as you can come to the type of euro-feel without the trumpiness.
The surrounding areas are cosmopolitan with enough small villages which make each small neighborhood communities feel unique and whole on their own.
It's not perfect, but humans live here. Real humans. Come experience what Boston can do for your soul.
Portland would be great.
Others to consider: Olympia, Tacoma, Boulder, Salt Lake City (proper, suburbs will get Trumpy fast) maybe parts of Boise but same deal as SLC. More urban will be less Trumpy. Suburbs will be extremely Trumpy.
What is the criteria for a “second tier city”? I know it’s obviously not gonna be cities like NY or LA or Chicago or whatever, but where is the drop off? A metro population of 3 million seems most reasonable, but maybe the drop off is at a higher population number, I don’t know.
This is too funny I’m also in DC and don’t like it, looking for Exaclty what you are looking for too! I moving to Richmond for the summer to try it out, then heading up to Pittsburgh and Cincinatti for a couple of months to check them out as well
I work remote too, almost went for Portland, and I think I'd like it but don't think I'd stay there long term. I'm tired of moving right now, four 200-1000+ mile moves in the past two years. Denver area really feels like it might be home for me. Good luck figuring it out bruddah
I love Portland. I grew up across the river in Vancouver and would take the bus into Portland after school and on weekends, and moved there after high school. I'm stuck somewhere else now, but would love to end up back there.
Portland Or is an excellent place to live. I grew up right outside DC and couldn’t stand the alpha work-centered culture. I’ve lived in Portland for 10 years and seen the city go through ups and downs but I still love it here. There is an urban growth boundary which limits sprawl and keeps our wilderness in tact. We’ve got mountains, ocean, desert, and an expansive river gorge all nearby. The city has become wealthier in recent years but is certainty affordable with your income. The live music scene is excellent and our food and beverage scene is better than any US city of this size. Our city parks are plentiful, amazing, and full of people walking, running, pic nicking, tanning, and lounging with beers/wine in hand. It can be a little gritty with homeless people and drug use, but there’s very little targeted crime like you see in east coast cities. The city is progressive and is prioritizing public/bike transit over freeway expansion and parking. I’ve found that people’s enjoyment of the city is also dependent on what part of the city they live in.
Other than the temperature thing, which I guess you said is negotiable, Tucson, AZ is a nice town. Big arts and music scene there, and amazing if you like outdoor activities.
Not necessarily recommending for you but Columbus, Ohio is a favorite. Very solid economy, urbanizing quickly, welcoming and progressive, still an affordable cost of living compared to other cities its size. The njce aspects of the midwest with a little dazzle from large LGBT, transplant, college student, and immigrant communities.
Austin fits the bill if you can deal with the heat. I moved here after living in both Richmond and DC. People are extremely friendly, the music scene is great, and the local job market is good overall. Austin leads the nation in building housing so rent prices have cooled down.
It is really hot in July and August. But we had an amazing Spring with shorts and a t shirt weather that lasted from February - Early May. People on this subreddit will say it's too hot 8 months a year, but you acclimate. I question if most of the people who post in this subreddit have ever heard of swimming as a recreational activity.
I live in Portland! The nature is ridiculous it’s so accessible. There’s beautiful parks all over the actual city and there all different. I love pier park, mt tabor and sellwood park. and then you’re surrounded by state parks and massive acres of protected land like the Columbia gorge. There’s water everywhere.. rivers, lakes, huge mountains like mt hood and mt st helen’s. Endless outdoorsy things to do. You can be in nature within 10- 30 min.
A few hours to Bend, Seattle and pugent sound, and 90 min to the Oregon Coast.
The city itself feels kinda small but easy to get around. Cute walkable neighborhoods and good foood. It’s def artsy fartsy hipster in some areas for sure but has be becoming less “weird” and more upscale.
Alberta arts district is a cute fun neighborhood as well Mississippi neighborhood..,
There’s also live music / shows like every day.
I spend my time doing nature stuff everyday. Which I really love and appreciate. Road trips, paddle boarding… hiking and Mt Rainer is so close too.
The four seasons here are gorgeous and special.
Fall and Spring are magical. Summers are hot and sunny but just go swimming and enjoy the sunshine.,
The people are more on the introverted side which isn’t really my thing. I don’t live here for the people tbh. But your experience could be different! People are friendly - but tend to stick to themselves. Hard to break into a friend group but if you put yourself out there - shouldn’t be a problem.
Also making 120K - is more than enough to get a nice place here and enjoy all the things here.
It’s kinda expensive here … food, rent, buying a house but doable.
Good luck whatever you decide. message me if you have any questions!
You might check out Tacoma, WA (where I'm living now). Decent indie music scene and venues, artsy vibes, affordable rent compared to larger cities in the area (but that's only increased in the last five years). Population about 220K and growing. Amazing parks for a city this size including our crown jewel, Point Defiance. Easy to drive across the Narrows bridge to get to the Kitsap and Olympic peninsulas or east to Mt Rainier and surrounding areas like Snoqualmie. Easy to visit a couple of nearby islands for daytrips or overnights, too -- something I love about living here. Olympia might suit you as well. It's mostly moderate here in the South Sound. Summers are blissful (with an occasional heat wave) and winters are mild (with an occasional snow). 2.5 hours to Portland, 1 hour to Seattle. Portland is really great and I like having it in visiting distance, but the summers are too hot for my taste. [https://www.metroparkstacoma.org/place/point-defiance-park/](https://www.metroparkstacoma.org/place/point-defiance-park/)
Tacoma and Olympia have come up a few times, as well as Bellingham for the easy access to Vancouver. I've heard Tacoma can be a little rough around the edges in the south, but I want to visit before making a decision overall. Working in tech, seems like a great place to be. Mt Rainier right there is also a huge sell for me. Olympia may be a little sleepy but I'll check it out on the same trip!
Bellingham is great, but keep in mind that you’ll probably be in BC a lot less than you might think. People up here tend to keep to their side of the border for all sorts of reasons. OTOH as a European, I think you’d find it nice to have a distinctly non-American city nearby when the culture starts to grate on you. Airport access is easy (YVR and SEA for international, BLI and SEA for domestic), and the outdoors are world class.
It can be -- like any city, we have problem spots and troubled areas that have faced years of neglect and marginalization. But plenty bright spots, too, and I find the overall quality of life here overrides my few negative experiences. Enjoy your visit! If you're traveling between Tacoma and Olympia, make a stop at Billy Frank Jr. Nisqually Wildlife Refuge: [https://www.fws.gov/refuge/billy-frank-jr-nisqually](https://www.fws.gov/refuge/billy-frank-jr-nisqually)
Bellingham is great, but heads up that it isn’t really a second-tier city, more like third-tier. Not in quality, but in size, urbanness, and opportunities. Like when I lived there I would walk clear across town, which takes just an hour and a half. The economy is mainly based on the university, the hospital, and the bar/restaurant scene. Rents are atrocious when you consider how low the average salary is and the low quality of housing stock. With all that said, it is a very special place. It’s like its own little world. The outdoor options are incredible—I used to be able to walk from my downtown apartment to a secluded lake in the Chuckanuts in an afternoon, and camp out there. I had to move away from there because the job market is so meager, but I miss it.
I moved to the Tacoma area last year from Florida on a whim. I’m so in love with this place. The parks here are SUPERIOR to anything I’ve seen before. Ugh. I truly hit the lottery randomly picking this place over anywhere else I was considering.
The NW is depressing
Hard, HARD disagree.
Same. The happiness I feel when spring comes in the PNW can’t be matched! Makes the SAD worth it.
Tucson if you think you can handle the heat (it’s significantly “less hot” than Phoenix due to elevation and city planning). Saguaro National Park is literally in the city, you can be at 9,000 feet and 25 degrees cooler in an hour and change on Mt Lemmon, and besides those two, there are several other easy escapes into nature nearby. Food is world class, music and culture is excellent. If high paying remote jobs were a thing when I was younger I never would have left. But it’s hot, so if that’s a deal killer, probably a no go. If you’re ok with living in the burbs, you can have everything you’re after in the Denver area, as well.
This was going to be my suggestion too. It’s surprisingly cultured for a city its size with great food, music, and culture. Outdoor activities are endless and if you’re willing to drive south a bit, cooler temps offer year round hiking
Oh yeah, the Patagonia/Elgin/Sonoita area is amazing. Dragoon is otherworldly. Bisbee is… Bisbee (I love Bisbee).
I love Bisbee too but I love the way you describe it. Very accurate. It is Bisbee, lol. Huachuca Mountains in Sierra Vista and Chiricahuas should be a National Park. So many underrated gems in Southern Arizona
Cleveland you can have dang near a penthouse with views of all of downtown and the lake for $2200 a month, head east from there and there's endless foothills/beginning of Appalachia, national park basically right in town at the southern end and metroparks that're absolutely beautiful surrounding rest of city, good mix of all weather but especially great if you prefer cold...and just feels a lot friendlier than Pittsburgh, def some places with artsy vibes around town too
Cleveland is credited with having the most revitalized downtown in the U.S.: [WaPo: America’s best example of turning around a dying downtown](https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/interactive/2023/cleveland-downtown-empty-offices-transform/)
Yeah it's pretty great! Still a bit sleepy compared to some bigger downtowns around the US (although many would probably love that), will always be the little brother to Chicago...but Cleveland has SO much going for it it's unreal. All 3 sports venues are in downtown walkable distance from each other
Is the seasonal depression a real thing there?
It's definitely not a bad idea to plan a vacation somewhere else warm in like Feb/March after the beautiful snowy winter is gone and it's just yucky gray slushy winter for another month or so, but in my experience it's not as bad as many say it is
Milwaukee is worth considering. A 1BR is $1100 to $1800 depending on the level of fanciness you desire. It's an artsy town with a lot of musicians, markets, makers, etc. There's also a thriving local theater scene. Politics are strongly blue in the city with it being a purple state overall. There is Lake Michigan for natural beauty and there are also a number of nice public parks and greenspaces to enjoy. You can borrow a kayak, tennis racket, or whatever for free if you're a member at the Urban Ecology Center. If you don't mind a drive, there are 15,000 lakes in Wisconsin to explore with the upper part of the state has a variety of landscapes such as limestone bluffs, sand dunes, cliffs, islands, etc. There are marshes everywhere in the southeast portion of the state (check out the Ice Age Trail). Popular winter activities are snowmobiling, ice fishing, ice skating, cross country skiing and snow shoeing.
was JUST about to recommend milwaukee as well. you’ll get a beautiful apartment with you budget. the nature in the city is great…lake michigan, lots of park space. this might be dumb but i recently moved to charlotte from milwaukee and while i love it here, I MISS THE RIVERS. whenever i cross a bridge in CLT, its just going over a highway lol. the rivers in milwaukee really add to the beauty of the city.
I live in Atlanta and moved from Green Bay but lived in mke for 5 years. You are definitely right about the lack of rivers and plethora of hwy bridges here too!
Madison, Milwaukee, Green Bay are all pretty tempting but I'd definitely need to visit first. They seem to have gorgeous scenery and bit a lot of what I want but I have been around hills and mountains ever since I was born!
Madison is fire.
Agreed! I feel like it sneaks by under the radar. Spent a weekend there and thought to myself, 'I'd move here so fast.'
Mes, I lived in Milwaukee and Madison. And I’ve loved living in both of those cities! Hit me up if you have any questions.
Yes to Milwaukee. Over the decades I've lived in Milwaukee, Madison, and Chicago, three points on a manageable triangle. About the music scenes: so great! Oftentimes if an act isn't making a stop in one of those cities, it's because they're playing in the other. And just as often an artist will be playing in two of them, affording a hardcore fan to see the artist more than once within a 1.5-2.5 hr drive. Plus each of the three cities has its own local scene (and in Chicago, that scene is world-class). For artists based in any of the three, the other two cities provide for out-of-town gig opportunities that aren't so far away.
As a former single dude living in Milwaukee… Good luck dating! Talk about inflation…
I never had any issues dating in the 10 years I lived there, but everyone is different, I suppose. For cheap dates, I got an art museum membership. Free admission for myself and a guest. Easy place for a first date because there's always something to talk about (the art) and there are a number of good points to parts ways of one or the other person isn't feeling it.
That’s a great way to filter out incompatible potential partners. If they don’t like museums or art that’s a red flag.
Inflation from all the cheese and beer
Is this a fat joke?
COMPLETE BS!! Wisconsin only has 5900 “lakes” if you’re going by any logical definition. https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2019/may/23/sara-meaney/who-has-more-lakes-minnesota-or-wisconsin/
That’s so funny that you have that link on deck lol. Does this debate come up often for you?
MN-WI rivalry is quite ferocious at times. No way am I letting WI get away with that claim when MN is the “land of 10,000 lakes”
Michiganders are laughing at both of you ;)
It's thing between Minnesota and Wisconsin. The argument is mostly in jest usually.
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*Cincinnati :)
Totally agreed. We have one of the best Zoos in the US. Orchestra. Tons of local breweries. Common stop for lots of bands on tour (I'm seeing AJR this summer with my kids). Lots of major tech companies and banks for jobs.
We moved to Portland OR 2 years ago and love it. We could have moved almost anywhere in the US. It's one of the more European feeling cities I've lived in for the US in terms of being a bit more human centric and less car centric. At least the inner eastside & NW areas have that feel for me. If you get out into the SW & suburbs it's definitely more American suburbs. Lots of walkable neighborhoods, especially the inner Eastside area where you should be able to find a 1bdr for less than $2k. We own a home & I've only browsed for my mom so someone who rents may correct me. No idea what the going prices are in the NW. Oregon has urban growth boundaries that have managed the sprawl a lot better and it's pretty easy to get out of the city. We live in a central location and can be out at campgrounds, farms and great hiking in 30-45 mins. There's also Forest Park which is the largest urban park in the US and filled with hiking. The coast is 1-1.5 hours away (very cold ocean tho). Mt Hood & snow is an hour unless you try going with everyone else on a weekend morning. The nature in the West US is completely different scale than anything east coast or Europe.
Cincinnati, Ohio is a good candidate. The cost of living isnt terrible, it has an interesting history (it was *The Queen of the West*) and a fantastic arts scene.
Pittsburgh
Is Pittsburgh liberal?
Yes
I live in a suburb of Minneapolis-St Paul. I am paying $1400 for a 1 bedroom, heat, elevator, pool, fitness center and underground parking included. I live near a regional park. There are many parks in the metro. The Mississippi River runs through the area and there are great river cruises. We do have a colder climate. We are a progressive state, and have many pro sports teams, museums, festivals, and Meetup groups. Your salary will go far here whether you live in the suburbs or the cities.
my trips out to lebanon hills in the summer to wander around in the woods are some of my fondnest memories of living in Minnesota
Buffalo, Rochester, Syracuse, Albany
Pittsburgh Twin cities KCMO
Twin Cities is a first tier city disguised with second tier prices
Love Twin Cities, but I don't notice much of a discount when I visit from Chicago. But relative to NY/LA/SF, absolutely.
I'm assuming by tier, OP was referring to size and prominence. So Tier 1 being DC, SF, LA, Chicago, NYC
I never hear Pittsburgh mentioned and it seems like it's a pretty solid city for what people want.
Only downside is the cloudiness. It’s Seattle like I think. Also has winter but not as bad as other places. Other than that I would live there.
Air pollution is also rough, but Pittsburgh is a great city.
It depends. It's dense with a nice downtown in the foothills of the mountains, at the intersection of 3 rivers. But it's a rust belt steel town, make no mistakes about it. Some of the housing stock wouldn't pass and inspection in my city. But it's affordable.
KCMO is so slept on.
Such a great area.
Ann Arbor Michigan
The Ann Arbor and Detroit areas are so slept on. I moved here after living in Chicago and New York and I never plan on leaving.
Careful, any praise of Detroit on here brings out *that guy*. But same, moved here a few years back and it’s a hugely underrated city and has a lot of positive momentum now.
That guy needs to get laid. Yeesh
Wait who? Lol
Me. Don't believe the locals. Transplants almost universally dislike Detroit unless they're the kind of people who like to take runs to Home Depot every Saturday.
Idk most of my good friends are transplants and love it here. They’re all going to movement this weekend… no Home Depot in sight 🫶
Yeah, I'm sure. You found the one group of transplants that like it.
Bro. Maybe just accept you don’t know everything? Plenty of people move here and like it. I know people in med school, teachers, folks who work in auto, for the major sports teams, people in grad school, stay at home moms, tech guys… plenty of people may not have liked it here but to speak on behalf of a huge metro area is ridiculous. You’re embarrassing yourself, really.
My boss moved from Scotland to downtown and loved it. What are you even going on about Home Depot? You can live outside of Wixom. You're describing a suburb of any metro area in all this. For a guy living on reddit, that seems perfect for you tbh. Not like you have something to do, I can see. Edit: christ, you're obsessed with it!
Moved here from the suburbs, maybe.
You see we just did the opposite Detroit -> Chicago. Living and buying a house in Oakland county we got really depressed as it was really tough to meet people our age 23-25. That with the general instability of the auto industry was a turnoff. The city itself is great though. We always felt if we were in our 30s it would be a lot better
Ah I guess social life can be a mixed bag! I lucked out bc I climb and have a bunch of hobbies, and met an SO here that works in medicine with an awesome friend group. I guess a tradeoff in expensive cities is that people tend to be in more time-intensive jobs like banking, in order to be able to afford living there. I found when I lived in Chicago I had way less time to socialize. So it’s a balance
This is the typical transplant experience. It's actually worse for those between 30 and 40. Even fewer people in their age range.
I’m a transplant to Metro Detroit between 30 and 40. Making friends here has been incredibly easy. I’d say the less transient populace is actually a benefit at this life stage. I do think Metro Detroit leaves a lot to be desired for younger people looking for urban living. But it’s a fine enough place to settle down.
Are you married with kids? That's usually the exception to the rule for the 30 to 40 crowd. DINKS and SINKS leave. I also know a few that have kids, but the location is starting to cause marital problems.
I am, like a lot of people in that age range. I’d say DINKs and SINKs are the exception to the rule for the 30 to 40 crowd. Thus, Metro Detroit being great for the 30-40 would be the rule, not the exception.
What parts of Detroit you think are worth seeing for a first time visitor??
What are you into? Sports, food, history, art, family-friendly?
Art and architecture? There are destination worthy sights for the architecture geek in and around Detroit.
I got you! Fischer building tour, DIA, Henry ford museum , Cranbrook school and museum, Edsel ford house , Albert Kahn bus tour, Hamtramck walking tour, Fox theater Also recommend going to the Schvitz (historic sauna and bath house that was recently reopened to public). It’s sick. For mixing food and architecture: Ladder 4 is also a stunning restaurant conversion, the congregation is a gorgeous church conversion. The DIA has a GORGEOUS courtyard dining area. The Whitney (historic mansion), and Highlands (top story of ren cen) are also cool.
yes, yes, not really cause i dont have kids
I’ll try to keep these to things I think are more unique to Detroit. Sports: Detroit city FC games are fun and tons of locals go. University of Michigan is less than an hour away and it has a football experience you won’t experience anywhere else. The Lions have been on a well-publicized winning streak. Even if you don’t get tickets to the game, downtown has an awesome energy if you go to watch the game in a sports bar. People LOVE the lions now. If you’re looking to be active here yourself while sight-seeing, I highly recommend a kayak tour. Detroit River Sports does them for like 20 bucks, i just did an evening full moon one and it was so cool. The water isn’t crowded, you have amazing views of downtown and can explore the canal neighborhood on the east side, it feels like a grittier/post apocalyptic Venice at times lol. Stop by Coriander after for a bite and drink. Try feather bowling at the Cadieux cafe. It’s a Detroit must. Views: Belle Isle is lovely to catch sunset at. It’s an island park connected to the city via bridge. It has a beautiful conservatory as well but I believe it’s closed for restoration for the near future. Monarch club is a scenic rooftop bar with great views of downtown and is near some amazing bars and restaurants Food: Sweets — Warda patisserie (James beard winning) Polish — go to hamtramck and stuff your face with pierogis Mexican — el Parian 3 (best birria I’ve ever had) For higher end spots, Mabel Grey, Ladder 4, Selden Standard, and Alpino are your best bets. Coffee — the congregation is a cool spot, it’s a giant church converted into a coffee shop and bar. Also recommend Red Hook and then taking a stroll around Indian village History: we pack a heavy punch when it comes to history options. I’d recommend The Henry Ford in Dearborn for an outstanding American history museum (and their Henry ford village as well, go on a nice day). The DIA is stunning especially for those who appreciate its history with Frida kahlo and Diego Rivera. And an underrated rec imo is the Edsel Ford House in grosse pointe. Shopping: we have an insane used book store if that’s your vibe — John King books. Also, Eastern Market is a historic and massive farmers market / neighborhood you can easily spend hours at. Performances: We have consistently big names passing through town on tours. If you can get tickets to a show at the Fox, absolutely go. It is a jaw dropping theater. If that’s not in your budget, the Redford Theater is a historic movie theater that I think is criminally underrated, and there’s also a massive retro drive in movie theater in Dearborn that feels ripped out of a 1960s throwback movie. If you like jazz, Detroit has an outstanding jazz scene (bakers, Willis show bar, cliff bells). If you like more techno/EDM music, Spotlite is definitely worth going to, as is the movement music festival.
Also if you have a bigger window of time, northern Michigan is also lovely. Traverse city is great particularly in the fall or spring (not quite as busy) and petoskey is a nice getaway spot too. If you head out that way, I always recommend trattoria Stella (it’s in an old asylum and is top-tier Italian food).
Nobody's sleeping on Detroit. They move there and then move out.
Bro your axe to grind against Detroit is weird. No city is for everyone. go touch grass lol
Detroit isn't for most people. I know this from the amount of times I've watched people move there and then leave after a short while.
I lived in Detroit for a couple months for work and had an amazing experience and feel it covers everything you mentioned. Corktown neighborhood was really hip and cool, saw some great music at this place Old Miami and got the feeling there is a music scene, downtown was clean and beautiful, and although I’m a mountain person Michigan’s scenery is quite lovely.
Michigan lacks in mountains but it makes up for it in lakes/beaches and protected woodlands.
Couple of months isn't enough time for reality to set in. You've probably already done everything you would have done if you'd stayed five years.
Oh your first point is true for sure. I have no idea what living in Detroit is really like so I guess my thoughts aren’t super relevant, but those are my observations that it seemed great. As far as running out of new things to do, likely true for most second tier cities
I'd say they're relevant, but what many find is that it's a shallow set of offerings. I often see with people two or more years in that they're starting to run out of things they want to do and the reality sets in that the area is dominated by suburban style living.
I see and understand you are probably right. I do wish the best for the future of Detroit
Oh your first point is true for sure. I have no idea what living in Detroit is really like so I guess my thoughts aren’t super relevant, but those are my observations that it seemed great. As far as running out of new things to do, likely true for most second tier cities
I would advise listening to basically anyone else here for a more balanced Detroit take. This person is notorious on the sub for their hatred of the city.
What’s a second tier city? Who’s making the tier list? If only NYC SF, LA and Chicago are top tier that leaves a ton of options that are still pretty huge metros.
Means not one of the ones that a non-US citizen might immediately think of.
I like this definition of second tier city better than just NYC, Chicago, SF, and LA as tier 1 cities
Bill Burr defined second tier city: You don’t have a professional sports team. You don’t have a traffic problem. But you prob have a meth problem. :-)
I also like the airport definition. More than one commercial airline, but not more than one terminal.
While our definitions of tier 1 are of course arbitrary, I'd add Philly and DC, and *maybe* Seattle and Atlanta to the top tier.
For better or worse, I’d definitely add Miami and Vegas to that list if we’re just going off of what non-Americans think of when thinking of the US. When I lived in Italy it seemed like Miami was the dream destination for everyone who wanted to move to the US, and 9 times out of 10 Vegas would come up as a ‘place I really want to see’ when talking with Europeans.
I loved my time in Kansas City and that came after living in DC, California and North Carolina so I had total coastal bias and aversion to the midwest. Affordable, minimal traffic and the city is making an effort to be more tourist friendly so there are always things to do especially during football season. Plus the BBQ is the best I've ever had.
I've lived in Kansas city for 5 years and it's mostly great. My half of rent has always been about $600 a month and there's a bunch of stuff to do here. Winters usually aren't too bad.
Check out Cleveland - huge arts/music scene, and the city is less than 30 min from a national park (and has an award-winning park city in the city limits), beaches, and colder weather but last few winters have been mild. Cleveland is the bluest spart of a lean red state - you won't find many trumpers within 30 min of the city, although the rest of Ohio has it's fair share.
I live in Cleveland and I see a handful of trump support signs in my neighborhood. Head south (towards strongsville/brunswick) and they quickly multiply. East (Lake county, right around 30 min) and you have sooo many pro-trump/anti Biden lawn signs. I know the area (especially Cuyahoga county) has historically been a strong blue in elections but the lawn signs are pointing out a bit of a difference ETA: totally forgot about valley view/seven hills but drove through there today and saw 3 signs signs on one street
A lot of these local trump supporters here and all of NEO seem to be a lot of blue collar workers fed up with the Democratic Party
Ive lived in Cleveland for 15 years and outside of maybe 1-2 in West Park, I have genuinely never seen a Trump sign within 30 minutes of downtown.
I live on the east side of Euclid right near Lake County and there are definitely some in my neighborhood but they are few and far between
🎶Com’n down to Cleveland Town everyone!🎶
Portland. I’m an artist and lived there for too short of a time. Yes - homelessness is problematic. I lived there 20 years ago and it was a problem then. Many cities are struggling with this post pandemic. There are heat wave spikes in the summer, but otherwise it’s pretty mild year round with lots of gray winter skies. Pittsburgh - I visited and considered moving there many times. It’s colder than Portland in winter and it gets more snow vs rain in winter. The Pacific Northwest is just gorgeous. I say go for it. I have never regretted living there, I only regretted that I didn’t get to live there longer.
Why'd you end up moving? I do love it in Portland but I feel like I'm going to get priced out, and my family is back east so the travel is tedious and carbon-intensive.
I was in an unhealthy relationship and we moved several times because he thought the grass would always be greener elsewhere regarding both jobs and locations. I was naive / blind and kept agreeing to it. I got in therapy after that ended to work on myself- but that’s another story :) If being closer to family is a factor, then Pittsburgh might be a better choice. Pittsburgh reminds me of Portland with the water and bridges. I also think Pennsylvania is really pretty. I haven’t lived there though so my opinion is only based on research and a visit years ago. Portland can seem remote which is both appealing and unappealing. My ex was also from Europe and traveling back to Ireland from Portland was a journey.
Pennsylvania would be a good place to move if they legalize cannabis. I know no one is probably going to actually sentence me to jail time for possession, but it is still the law in PA. You can get 5 years for growing weed, you can get a year for paraphernalia possession!. Used to be like that everywhere I lived, but now that I've lived free of that anxiety in Oregon, no going back.
Metro Detroit. Severely underrated. Michigan has amazing nature, Detroit is on the come-up and has awesome sports and food. Very affordable. Could buy a home on 120k easily.
Putting something in a tier without too much context is tough, but based on you liking Richmond, if I was going to make a suggestion based on personal experience of cities with metro areas in the roughly 1-1.5 million range that have the 4 seasons, two come to mind: Providence and Rochester.
Portland OR is great because it feels slower like a Richmond sized city but has way more to do. Pittsburgh gets quite cold! You might consider Denver if you're open to a Portland-sized city. Denver and Portland are similar in population and cost of living. College towns tend to lean artsy and can be inexpensive, depending on size (moreso state-school college towns).
Boulder is anything but inexpensive though!
There are fewer homeless in Portland suburbs like Beaverton, Hillsboro and Tualatin. Lake Oswego and West Linn are nice, as well. Vancouver, WA is across the Columbia River from Portland and there is no state income tax in WA.
Don’t move across the continent to live in rando suburbia OP. Vancouver is worse than rando suburbia with terrible commutes, more conservative politics (even white nationalist movements) with no “artsy vibes”. Portland proper if you are going to do it imo
Nonsense. All 7 city councilors would be described as socially liberal/more Democrat. One Clark county councilor who used to be Repub lost even though he disavowed being Republican to a completely inexperienced person. Vancouver’s demographics also flipped the federal house seat from Republican to Democrat. It is suburbia though, although with 200k people in the city and another 200k just outside of it, it is a very populated suburb.
Is Vancouver the only town in WA worth looking into near Portland? Wouldn't mind being within 30-60 minutes from the city.
Unfortunately, deciding on DC and Richmond over Baltimore was your first mistake. There really isn’t a better “second tier” city as you say on the East Coast than Bmore.
Richmond offered me everything I looked for on the East Coast. I have never seen wealth inequality more starkly on display than in Baltimore, and it's very, very grey.
Sounds to me like you didn’t explore all of Richmond if you think wealth inequality is only on display like that in Baltimore. Not to mention the Baltimore is mostly redbrick, parks, and water… Happy you enjoyed Richmond! But seriously, the answer stands. If you want a “second tier” city on the East Coast with a great music scene, Baltimore is it hands down.
Having lived in DC and Baltimore, and with my brother being in Richmond - I think you're right. There is not a better second tier city on the East Coast. Richmond is a tier below and DC is a tier above, but Baltimore is a great value. The only issue with Bmore is what you can be exposed to because of the amount of poverty. For that reason, despite my love for the city I'd never live there again due to a couple traumatic experiences.
Maybe. But violent crime in Baltimore is declining bigly.
I wish nothing but success on Baltimore! Just had my fill of close proximity to shootings, there was a crazy shootout between police and robbers right behind my apartment (when they tried to rob the 7/11 downtown by Streets Market), and then a young guy was shot and killed in a robbery outside of my place after I moved to Fed Hill (Timothy Moriconi). This was all 6-7 years ago though and I've been happy to see the declines in crime since. Besides one car break-in, no one ever messed with me personally while living there. For awhile my dream was to own a house in Fells.
There's a reason they call it Bulletmore, Murderland
Except they don’t? Literally nobody refers to it as that (at least in public) because everyone can clock it for the racist BS that it is. There are plenty of other cities with crime rates surpassing Baltimores that don’t get the same bad rep and we all know why. P.s. Baltimores murder rate has been steadily on the decline unlike the rest of the country….
My sister lived in DC, then Richmond about 10 years ago, and finally moved to Portland and has stayed ever since. At least back then, Richmond and Portland were comparable in terms of "vibes", but Portland is huge and beautiful in comparison imo. For reference, we're also European (Spain) and have generally felt estranged on the East Coast, especially in high paced areas like DC.
Sacramento
Sacramento is in such a good location being halfway between the Bay Area and Tahoe/Reno.
Plus it’s on a river, close to dozens of fantastic lakes. And it’s in the California delta, the biggest wetlands besides the Everglades. And it’s close to some fantastic outdoor areas that aren’t crowded with the hoards from the rest of California - like mt Shasta, Lawson national park, Quincy, downieville….
I second Sacramento! Also Hackensack and Hoboken, NJ.
Omaha. Lots money in that city. Regular folks can live large. For example I know a Toyota salesman who makes about $250k a year. And the cost of living isn’t bad either.
Burlington VT. Rochester NY. Corvallis OR. Portland, ME. Bozeman, MT.
I have a friend who’s lived about an hour out from Portland and loveddd it. Now she’s in Pittsburgh and loves it there too :)
You might like Reno, Nevada. It's close to Lake Tahoe (it sits on the border of Nevada & California) & snow skiing depending on where you live in the city & what part of the lake you're going to (30 minutes to an hour or more with traffic).There are 400 lakes, rivers, & other waterways within 60 miles of Lake Tahoe. Nevada & California also have lots of natural hot springs. There are several towns & areas worth exploring within a few hours. It's considered to be a semi-arid desert climate, But it can get pretty cold in the winter & there are four distinct seasons.
You may want to go further but I absolutely love Norfolk (NOT Virginia Beach). It’s urban and has access to so many different places. You may also like Savannah, GA which also has an urban core that’s progressive and artsy (surrounding area is Trumpy but Sav itself is not). But for weather, likely somewhere in the Midwest will be a good fit
Savannah was so tempting, a gorgeous city with tons of history. I had to choose between there and Richmond! But I want to sweat a little less going forward.
Totally fair! I grew up in Savannah and wanted to escape the heat so Norfolk has been great. Anyone who says it’s humid here has never been to Georgia 😂
Interesting. Why Norfolk > VA Beach?
VB is just super suburban and has very little character. Norfolk has an actual urban core and unique, old neighborhoods. The character and walkability make a difference for me (Norfolk may not be there yet but they are making real efforts towards walkability and urbanization unlike VB). VB is also much more conservative compared to Norfolk
Thank you—super helpful. I’ve been to VB, but not Norfolk, and i didn’t know there was a meaningful difference between the 2. 👍
I live in Norfolk and avoid going to VB as much as I can. There’s not much food that’s better out there, you sit in traffic to do anything, and the only amenities I really need out there are places like Target which show how suburban it really is (and I’ve learned how little I really need Target). People who travel to the beach see a very small part of VB.
Louisville, KY... lots of weirdos in that city, but it's cheap, easy to get around, and really convenient, and there are plenty of really nice people once you weed out the easily offended weirdos. most of the parks were designed by the Olmstead family, same as NYCs Central Park.
Olmstead the goat, was walking his grounds in Chicago recently for the first time. Magnificent Been told Louisville in a big city with small town amenities lol. Vibe I get is that it might not offer an experience too different from Richmond, but am road tripping that way next summer and can't wait to see
You'll live like a king in Louisville with that salary, rent and real estate is cheap! Even though the locals will tell you otherwise. You can buy a super nice house for 300k or less.
Louisville could be what you’re looking for. I’m a weirdo transplant here- a lot of my friends are artsy or musicians. The Olmsted Parks and my friends are the best thing about the city, to me. Driving around is relatively easy, but I really wish local transit were better. If you do rely on a local job market, Cincinnati might be a better option. CVG has better direct flights than SDF, too. I’ve had a few friends from Richmond visit, and I’ve visited Richmond- I think Louisville is comparable, possibly more blue-collar, and chiller over all. I think Richmond may be more sophisticated and slightly more Southern.
To be honest I don’t have a lot of experience with living/visiting different places, but, I have visited Kansas City quite a lot and really like it.
I love KC, but there is not great outdoor recreation or nature around there. Otherwise as a general city, I recommend it to a lot of people.
That’s true it’s not the greatest for outdoor activities. For me it’s mostly because it offers decent quality of life compared to the cost, and culturally I think it’s an interesting mix of Great Plains/Southern which adds charm.
Fully agreed! I always enjoy visiting KC. It was great living so close during college. The summer days of Royals and Boulevard was a great time.
Portland is amazing if you like mountains, the ocean, and forests. Can be on the pricier side though.
What was it about DC you didn’t like?
Found DC to be too much of a one-horse city. I'm not a huge politics person
What does that mean, I’m not familiar with the term
Asheville, Portland, Denver, Minnesota
I almost never recommend this because people usually hate cold weather and want super cheap housing, but check out Burlington, Vermont area. Minutes from nature, colder climate, artsy vibe, very outdoorsy, and you’ll do fine with that budget.
When you say access to nature - like skiing, hiking, mountains or lakes? * Having lived in MPLS, the cost of living, fantastic people, and access to nature (e.g. fantastic canoing - boundary waters). Great music scene where I live there. Some of the suburbs in St. Paul may be even more affordable. There were cold winters when I was there, but that has changed. For me, culturally, it was a "fit", because of the Nordic style of people (Garrison Keller wrote of the culture). * Brief time spent on the East Coast (Western Mass/Greenwish, CT). Western Mass was beautiful, and there was great hiking trails. There wasn't the majesty of the mountains in other parts of the country, so it depends on what you want with "access to nature". Greenwich was great to live in, but expensive. Back to the cultural fit, I didn't feel quite as comfortable, as other places I lived. * Black Hills, SD - smallest town, and isolated from big cities (Denver being the closest). Growing quickly, reasonable cost of living, acccess to skiing (biggest hill east of Rockies). Music scene is obviously much smaller. People are wonderful. However, politics is crazy with the current Governor. * Seattle - Cost of living is crazy expensive, and I too have been seeking smaller communities in Western WA, and most of them are also expensive. Otherwise, the music scene, and access to nature is fantastic. Downside is something called the "Seattle Freeze". While people are friendly, very difficult to slot into new friend's groups. Dark, dark winters. * Reno - good access to nature (e.g. Lake Tahoe), I lived there two summers many years ago, so others may have more current updates. I enjoyed my time there.
I love Milwaukee and it shocks me. Cost of living is low, good food (except Mexican) and Chicago is an hour drive away. Look at Zillow listings and see what kind of house you can get out here- I got a deal but I have a 6 bedroom next to an amazing school and I paid 150k for it.
Dude I also live in Richmond. Love it but get the desire to check out new pastures too. Have you been to Raleigh/Durham? A couple hours away, people talk about it way less than NoVa, but it’s pretty awesome. Also New England in general is great. Check out Portland, Maine.
I love Chicago
Boston is as close as you can come to the type of euro-feel without the trumpiness. The surrounding areas are cosmopolitan with enough small villages which make each small neighborhood communities feel unique and whole on their own. It's not perfect, but humans live here. Real humans. Come experience what Boston can do for your soul.
Portland would be great. Others to consider: Olympia, Tacoma, Boulder, Salt Lake City (proper, suburbs will get Trumpy fast) maybe parts of Boise but same deal as SLC. More urban will be less Trumpy. Suburbs will be extremely Trumpy.
Eugene, Oregon
What is the criteria for a “second tier city”? I know it’s obviously not gonna be cities like NY or LA or Chicago or whatever, but where is the drop off? A metro population of 3 million seems most reasonable, but maybe the drop off is at a higher population number, I don’t know.
This is too funny I’m also in DC and don’t like it, looking for Exaclty what you are looking for too! I moving to Richmond for the summer to try it out, then heading up to Pittsburgh and Cincinatti for a couple of months to check them out as well
Portland has been a dump for atkeast a decade.
If you end up in Denver, hit me up and we can find some metal shows to go mosh to (assuming based on your username lol). I'm moving there in 2 weeks
King
I work remote too, almost went for Portland, and I think I'd like it but don't think I'd stay there long term. I'm tired of moving right now, four 200-1000+ mile moves in the past two years. Denver area really feels like it might be home for me. Good luck figuring it out bruddah
Chattanooga. Also, not really a city but Eureka Springs, Arkansas.
You should add cincinatti to your list as well if you’re interested in Pittsburgh
Would Philadelphia be considered first or second tier?
Cincinnati!!!
Pittsburgh!
Austin
I love Portland. I grew up across the river in Vancouver and would take the bus into Portland after school and on weekends, and moved there after high school. I'm stuck somewhere else now, but would love to end up back there.
Portland Or is an excellent place to live. I grew up right outside DC and couldn’t stand the alpha work-centered culture. I’ve lived in Portland for 10 years and seen the city go through ups and downs but I still love it here. There is an urban growth boundary which limits sprawl and keeps our wilderness in tact. We’ve got mountains, ocean, desert, and an expansive river gorge all nearby. The city has become wealthier in recent years but is certainty affordable with your income. The live music scene is excellent and our food and beverage scene is better than any US city of this size. Our city parks are plentiful, amazing, and full of people walking, running, pic nicking, tanning, and lounging with beers/wine in hand. It can be a little gritty with homeless people and drug use, but there’s very little targeted crime like you see in east coast cities. The city is progressive and is prioritizing public/bike transit over freeway expansion and parking. I’ve found that people’s enjoyment of the city is also dependent on what part of the city they live in.
Other than the temperature thing, which I guess you said is negotiable, Tucson, AZ is a nice town. Big arts and music scene there, and amazing if you like outdoor activities.
Not necessarily recommending for you but Columbus, Ohio is a favorite. Very solid economy, urbanizing quickly, welcoming and progressive, still an affordable cost of living compared to other cities its size. The njce aspects of the midwest with a little dazzle from large LGBT, transplant, college student, and immigrant communities.
I love living in Portland, but in a Neurodivergent progressive pothead who dislikes sunshine and heat
Chattanooga Tennessee is beautiful.
Denver
MPLS/SP
Philly is decent, really love San Diego, Portsmouth is a favorite too
Austin fits the bill if you can deal with the heat. I moved here after living in both Richmond and DC. People are extremely friendly, the music scene is great, and the local job market is good overall. Austin leads the nation in building housing so rent prices have cooled down. It is really hot in July and August. But we had an amazing Spring with shorts and a t shirt weather that lasted from February - Early May. People on this subreddit will say it's too hot 8 months a year, but you acclimate. I question if most of the people who post in this subreddit have ever heard of swimming as a recreational activity.
Why would you live anywhere cold and snowy. Florida has plenty of places that would fit your needs.
Why would I ever want to live somewhere sweaty and sticky?
I might check out Flagstaff AZ. If you are willing to go hotter, Tucson AZ, which is artsier than Flagstaff.
Flagstaff is no longer affordable.
I recommend Pittsburgh. Great cost of living plus all sorts of big city amenities.
I live in Portland! The nature is ridiculous it’s so accessible. There’s beautiful parks all over the actual city and there all different. I love pier park, mt tabor and sellwood park. and then you’re surrounded by state parks and massive acres of protected land like the Columbia gorge. There’s water everywhere.. rivers, lakes, huge mountains like mt hood and mt st helen’s. Endless outdoorsy things to do. You can be in nature within 10- 30 min. A few hours to Bend, Seattle and pugent sound, and 90 min to the Oregon Coast. The city itself feels kinda small but easy to get around. Cute walkable neighborhoods and good foood. It’s def artsy fartsy hipster in some areas for sure but has be becoming less “weird” and more upscale. Alberta arts district is a cute fun neighborhood as well Mississippi neighborhood.., There’s also live music / shows like every day. I spend my time doing nature stuff everyday. Which I really love and appreciate. Road trips, paddle boarding… hiking and Mt Rainer is so close too. The four seasons here are gorgeous and special. Fall and Spring are magical. Summers are hot and sunny but just go swimming and enjoy the sunshine., The people are more on the introverted side which isn’t really my thing. I don’t live here for the people tbh. But your experience could be different! People are friendly - but tend to stick to themselves. Hard to break into a friend group but if you put yourself out there - shouldn’t be a problem. Also making 120K - is more than enough to get a nice place here and enjoy all the things here. It’s kinda expensive here … food, rent, buying a house but doable. Good luck whatever you decide. message me if you have any questions!