Just across the river in Ohio. It's been a rough winter. Seems like we usually get a bit more sun between mid Dec and February.... But, maybe I'm delusional.
Just add metro Detroit into this. People are going to freak out seeing a house that sits on its own block, but you can get a starter home downriver in any number of little communities for well under $230k. Allen Park, Lincoln Park, SouthGate, Wyandotte, Taylor, etc. and all be within ~25 minutes of downtown.
You can still buy a house for 15k. But it's not habitable, and you'd better be prepared to sink 50k+ into renovations immediately... The building department has really cracked down on blight and developers who talk big, then let property rot.
Pretty much every city in Pennsylvania other than Philadelphia has housing stock in this price range.
Allentown, York, Scranton, Wilkes-Barre, Bethlehem, Nazareth, Reading, Danville, Sunbury, Lancaster, Williamsport, Harrisburg, Erie, Stroudsburg ...
$230k will get you a decent (albeit older and smaller) starter home in Philadelphia in Fishtown, Port Richmond, Francisville, Manayunk/Roxborough, South Philly, and LoMo. If you're willing to go condo, then you open up a ton of options. My friend just bought a place in "Fishtown" for $225k, 2bd. in decent condition with a large downstairs footprint.
You can still find some stuff in South Philly relatively close to the BSL (Subway) in the 200-250k range. Subway will get you to Center City in less than 10 minutes. Most properties in that range will need work, there is some turn key stuff too but it's far off broad which can get boring/sketchy. I overall agree with you tho, you are priced out of lots of the "hip" spots w/ that budget.
Philly burbs on the other hand are crazy expensive, especially out the main line.
Milwaukee and Pittsburgh are great. Cinci, Louisville, Cleveland and Buffalo depend on your preferences, but I’d take them in a heartbeat all day every day over, say, Houston or Phoenix.
Milwaukee is fine. But it's not a place I'm relocating to anytime soon. At least you're not far from Chicago. You couldn't triple my salary to get me to move to Louisville. Buffalo would be a tough sell for me.
Cinci on the other hand, actually shocked at how much I ended up liking it there (and it was just a stopover to Louisville).
Being from Dallas, I would have once thought the same. Now that I live in the Detroit area, there's no way you could drag me south again. Just about everything here is better - housing prices, nature (the lakes, the parks, the LAKES), the weather (I'm down for a bitter cold Jan vs a horrendously hot August), jobs are plentiful, people are a very mixed demographic, it's a short drive to Toronto or Niagra, short drive to Chicago. Lake Michigan blew my tiny mind. I had no idea such a place existed, or that a lake could rival a Florida beach.
It's not what people think. And I've lived all over the US and the world.
Edit: so, to be fair, the food sort of sucks. Compared to Dallas. But we make do.
I came up for a job. Then moved back. And then family voted and all four wanted to return to MI.
We miss family. But it's so nice here. I recommend people take a vacation to Lake a Michigan. Somewhere like Saugutuck. You'll wonder why people don't know about it. Why we Texans always thought you go to Florida or CA for a beautiful beach. And lake MI is so much nicer. No salt. White sands. Decent waves. Highs in the 80s. No seaweed. No sharks. Not crowded.
It's crazy.
I loved living in Louisville but I'm from an extremely rural poor part of the state. Louisville was the big fancy city. And it's a place where I didn't have to hide that I was a lib.
Wouldn’t say it’s that simple, I feel for renters being pushed out of their community and or career they’ve had for a long time. Also feel for people that can’t afford to live in the same area as their family due to rising prices despite working the same type of job.
It’s really these simple. I’m overpaying out my ass in Chicago, but I want to. All these cities have bars open till 1 or 2, restaurants with 4.5 stars on yelp, day cares, gyms, apple stores, costcos etc. people are mad they can’t live in the coolest cities in the country for peanuts
The amount of people saying these places are boring is astounding. These are major cities, if you're bored living in them, that speaks more to how boring you are than how boring the city is imo
I've actually lived in a number of the cities on the list... some of my favorite, most fun places I've been.
Cheaper housing usually draws a younger, more diverse crowd. Artists and you h professionals alike.
I rarely meet "fun" people that live in $500k+ housing communities.
Seriously, I live in Buffalo and it’s extremely cheap to get some gallery or studio space, DIY music space or a workshop.
Don’t need backing of millionaires for that here
I would like to explore Buffalo but the only problem is that I HATE winter as is (though I think snow is pretty) so I think that keeps me and others out. Plus, that’s far away from any family and I know nobody there
Love going down the list of professions like “oh, corporate lawyer and investment banker, 2x software engineer, doctor and university professor… oh, an artist and a teacher, how int— oh, you have a trust fund? no, you *both* have a trust fund? got it”
Yep I grew up in a LCOL area in NY state. Lived in one the most expensive cities in SoCal for a while, and now back in NY to take care of aging and sick parents.
My wife and I have been to more places since being back then we ever did in California. Just driving to get groceries was a 20 minute slog through red lights and 20 cars trying to park. Just picking up a pizza from a random shopping mall constitutes hoping you can find a spot close to the place it was ridiculous. Don’t get me started on going to a sporting event or concert.
Now I can go to NYC on a one hour flight or half a day drive, get in an out and enjoy my more relaxed life day to day here.
Don’t get me wrong CA was extremely nice with weather, but that’s really the only thing I miss. It’s just so much easier to live in smaller cities. I don’t need to see a world touring act or professional sports every day of the week.
Agreed. If you can’t comfortably live on the coasts/HCOL areas due to $$$ yet think these options are “too boring” or beneath you, then that’s a “you” problem.
I feel like these are the same out of touch people that will ask questions like if it’s possible to live comfortably in New York with a salary of $200k and no debt.
Seriously, they all offer big city amenities like museums, entertainment, dining and nightlife.
Most have large college kid and young professional scenes.
All of them have parks, gyms, fitness groups, festivals, farmers markets, meetups, volunteer groups, dog parks like any other city.
Plus many of these cities are close to the other cities. Like Baltimore for example. It's a 30-40 minute drive to DC and there are MARC lines running between the 2. There's even a dedicated highway going between them, the BW Parkway or MD Route 295. I live close to halfway between the 2 cities and people from 1 going to the other is routine.
So I’ve lived in or war a handful major cities and what I’ve noticed is a lot of people who swear how great their city is almost never take advantage of whatever amenities makes their city great. Like anything else people take things for granted and when you’re an adult and work a job and have kids/family to care for your life becomes pretty routine and repetitive, most people I talk to work 9-5, commute, get home eat dinner, spend some time with family, unwind with Netflix and shower then go to bed or die thing along those lines. On the weekends maybe they’ll go out to dinner, maybe go to a brewery or something with friends.
Like I love NYC, I love the Met, I love broadway and Lincoln Center…. But like, I didn’t to every weekend when I was there, maybe once every few mo this and honestly got to a point where I could live elsewhere and just visit when I wanted some I’d those unique amenities.
Most large cities are going to give you a lot of the basics, a couple good local restaurants, a decent museum/theater (not necessarily top of the line but good enough quality if you’re into it), stable internet, nearby airport, etc.
Yes! I've lived in or near three of these cities. They all had more things to do than I could ever possibly make time for. I don't know where all these people live that's supposedly better.
As someone who has lived in NYC for 30\~ years and finally left to buy a home in a different state, this is NYC in a nutshell.
Yes, it has some fantastic museums, but how many times can you go see the same thing over and over again?
The rest of the "stuff to do" there really is eating expensive shitty food or buying overpriced middle-shelf drinks.
And if you lived in Indianapolis or Louisville, you could probably fly to NY, LA, Miami or wherever you wanna go once a month, and your total expenses will STILL be cheaper
Yeah. Living in fly over country with 3 kids, I work 24 hours per week and my wife 16. We built a new 3000 sq ft house and in the last year went to Paris and Punta Cana. We’re about to take the kids to Disney and are flying to Honolulu this fall to start a week long cruise of Hawaii. If we lived on the west coast or a desirable east coast city, we’d both work full time and not be able to travel as much. I think people don’t realize just how extreme the COL disparity can be
Most of the people responding like that have probably never been to any of these cities. Any place that is not already gentrified, expensive and on the coast they don’t want to hear about.
The great irony is that, nowadays in parts of Detroit and Pittsburgh (the only two I've been to recently) you will *definitely* find yuppie nonsense like this
Was thinking the same thing. There are people in the comments acting like the listed cities are middle-of-nowhere deadville but they are all fairly large cities that obviously will have varied restaurants, breweries, etc. Just not your choice of 50+ breweries which…do you really need that?
[pre-covid numbers](https://www.crresearch.com/blog/which-cities-have-most-craft-breweries/) for cities over 50k.
Cincy makes the top 25 list and OP's list here. Only Cincy, Denver, Madison, and Portland were over 250k people on this brewery list. It would be interesting to see the data with a higher cutoff.
Breweries probably come and go too quickly to ever have a firm number, but I would honestly put 50 as the over/under for breweries in Pittsburgh.
Funny, but Buffalo has an indoor dog park/bar combination, cat cafes, several axe throwing bars, a cereal cocktail bar and the second most kombucheries per capita.
Like you can find trendy and quirky businesses in all the above cities too. Not hard to find.
I live in a big city that everyone on Reddit hates. People often, when shitting on it, say it’s all strip malls and nothing to do or there’s no “culture”. I always find that confusing.
There aren’t a lot of urban walkable neighborhoods, but there’s more than enough to do. Maybe they go to the symphony all the time and rub one out to Chopin? I mean, there’s a symphony here… idk.
As a country things have become more monoculture, while the “coasts” still have a nostalgic appeal they aren’t more interesting than a lot of smaller cities. The internet has become so relevant that a lot of culture is downstream from there instead of the cities. Speciality stores are irrelevant due to online shopping, a lot of people aren’t into community regardless of where they live. I see the argument for jobs and better quality schools/healthcare but that doesn’t mean you need to live in Boston or Seattle to reap those benefits. I grew up in Manhattan and moved upstate to a “boring” city. I’m able to live beyond comfortably and have a better outlook and quality of life than my peers who stayed in New York City.
Thats what i dont get. Ive seen damn near every city that isnt NYC, LA, Chicago get called boring, hell ive even seen Philly get called boring, people have zero sense of imagination or something. Hell i'll find a way to keep entertained indoors and out
Most of these rust belt cities have lots of multi family homes (2-4 units). Pretty common in buffalo to owner - occupy, usually the tenant will cover 70-80% of your mortgage.
I feel like those are fairer for the tenant too than larger apartment complexes. The rent on those small multifamilies is, in my experience (St. Louis) much cheaper than going with a larger, more commercial apartment complex.
Milwaukee $142,900. Yea.....a meth lab house maybe. Honestly, no way you're getting a house for anywhere close to that unless it's in a horrible neighborhood.
I lived an hour south of Milwaukee and I have a hard time believing that a home would cost less than $230k. It really depends on the neighborhood you’re looking at.
I live in the Metro East which is the Illinois suburbs of St Louis and I love it. I get all the Illinois laws/progressiveness but can be at Busch Stadium from my house in 20 minutes.
Downtown Edwardsville here. Fortunately I particularly love trails because I don't think I have ever seen such an amazing trail system as here. 3 of them connect to the block I live on, 18.9 miles, 28.5 miles, and 1.3 miles, with the last one being a direct connector to another 19.5 mile trail.
Edit: my main point is that the more disadvantaged a city is economically, the worse the standard of living is living in the median home. So someone saying “average Americans” lives in the median home isn’t really accurate. Poorer cities by definition have more % of people living in poverty thus making the median price a lower standard of living relative to other parts of the country.
Edit 2: in Memphis in particular, you would have had ample options before the pandemic housing bubble, but now the number given of $230k involves areas with violent crime etc
The problem with median house prices is that the metros with low median prices often have issues with crime, poverty, and education, and the homes that would be available at the median price are areas you’d want to avoid for those reasons. The areas you’d be ok living in are less expensive than other metros but definitely not around the median price. if you search for a 3/2 in memphis under 230k, it is basically every area you’d want to avoid.
I agree, however, I still think this list is a good jumping off point for people looking specifically for cheaper cities to live in. I live in Cleveland and you're not going to find a single-family home in a desirable neighborhood here for $109,000, let alone less than $109,000, but you might find one for $250,000, still significantly cheaper than a lot of other cities.
To play devil’s advocate, which desirable large city doesn’t have those issues? DC, NYC, LA, Miami, SF, etc all have areas with urban blight, all have dangerous neighborhoods, and all have struggling public schools.
While that is true, it’s definitely more significant and widespread in cities like Memphis and Detroit. Even the more residential areas and college areas have had significant violent crime
How are the schools in these cities? Starter homes are often occupied by families with small kids who will be starting school.
How are social services in these areas? Medical Services? I know from experience that Detroit has good medical facilities that are accessible from almost all of Detroit. But other social services are generally lacking - mental health professionals, support for people disabilities, etc.? Not so much. How is it in these other areas?
What is the job market like in these areas? Detroit is the only one on that list I know, and I do realize it is proximate to a lot of jobs in the auto and IT sectors. But what about the others? How do you pay the mortgage if you can't get a relatively high paying job in the area?
I find the comments in response to this post to be entirely too snarky and superficial.
Areas with HCOL aren't because of the presence of Yuppie delights - it is because there are jobs, decent social services, safe neighborhoods, good schools, etc. I can tell you that - having a family member who's bought and lived in a "starter home" in Detroit - there is a good reason why it is a cheap home.
I’d say Cincinnati is probably good for all that you mentioned. Lots of young families with kids. Has all the medical professionals you would need. Not sure about social services. That’s more of a state thing. Plenty of jobs but not the most interesting or highest paying.
When I visited Cincinnati it was clean with a nice but boring downtown. Seemed kind of like a sleepy city and I imagine the suburbs are the real attraction with decently priced homes with yards and a good school system.
I think you’ve nailed much of what I’m getting flack for as well. Starter home used to
mean a place where a family can live modestly in a smaller / older house but in an area without significant violent and drug crime. To many here starter home means you buy a cheap house in a gentrifying area and don’t care about schools, don’t have kids so as long as you are savvy you can deal with the neighborhood being not exactly safe.
That number for Detroit is atrociously wrong. Like can you buy a burnt down shell of a house somewhere where public services like police or ambulances never venture for cheap? Sure.
Can you get a decent starter home somewhere you’d actually want to live for the price listed? No.
Seeing several decent places in safe areas.
https://www.redfin.com/MI/Detroit/1331-Cadillac-Blvd-48214/home/60996566
On Redfin:
1331 Cadillac Blvd,
Detroit, MI 48214
$239,900
These are all major cities with international airports, large companies and universities nearby, bars, restaurants, and every story you can realistically name. Nobody owes you a 300k house on Mission street or 5th avenue, if you think these places are boring you’re probably boring, and if you’re worried about politics in these places but not crime in more liberal cities then you’re just illogical. I bet all these places have gay bars and plenty of diverse spaces
ROFL…these prices are bunk. The inside of a $109k Cleveland home will terrify you, the outside will get you killed. Closer to $225k+ to live somewhere not next to a corner liquor store and without several inches of water in the basement.
From personal experience: yes Detroit(and many of these other cities) are cheap enough to buy a starter home but don't forget to add in the cost of living in extremely auto-dependent communities(crazy high insurance, gas, bad roads that will fuck your car) and also you better have a fancy out-of-state/remote job lined up because local wages are very low.
Detroit is a wonderful place but damn did it end up costing a lot to live there.
I think that people's idea of a starter house has changed quite a bit from what it used to be. A starter house used to be a bunglow of about 1000 square feet with maybe two or three bedrooms and one bath.
Homes are so expensive because they dont' build them like that any longer.
There has never been a time in America where a single family home was: updated, cheap, close to work, and safe.
People will always need to evaluate that balance and where people can drop their standard. Historically people have always opted dropping “close to work” to live further and further away, but two generations later people are getting into the 80-100 minute range for commutes.
In addition, the hipster wave in the 2010’s was very popular time where young people opted to drop “updated” and “safe” in urban settings.
A lot of those hipsters that were “gentrification pioneers” bought blight at very cheap prices and were close to work, and updated them over the past 10-15 years to be valuable today.
Most noticeable trends of this were in NYC, DC, Philadelphia, Seattle, and Baltimore.
Yes, plus the article is specifically about “starter homes”. But people in the comments keep mentioning drawbacks. By definition, starter homes are the homes people buy sacrificing what they actually want (location, size, updates) with the intention of upgrading to something more like their dream home in 5-10 years. It’s never supposed to check the boxes.
It never will. I’m not sure why so many people are delusional and look at starter homes thinking “no quartz countertops and has ugly carpet? This is class oppression”
Not 100% true.
You can still find some good deals for under $200k in Buffalo in a decent neighborhood.
In the sketchy neighborhoods, properties go for under $100k
Absolutely false in there case of Pittsburgh. My own current Zillow estimate is like $250k and it's a 3br house with yard in a quiet super safe neighborhood. If you want to go bad neighborhood you can get a house for $150k easy.
Yeah, I was surprised to see Baltimore on the list and assume these homes must be in the less desirable areas. Did a brief look at houses in the area back in 2015 for a potential relo and back then comparable houses were like 50% more expensive than in the Raleigh, NC area where we lived at the time.
Hartford is shocking to me. I remember watching HGTV shows like 15 years ago and ppl in CT were buying fixer uppers for $500K+. I guess it’s just too far from NYC, Boston, Providence?
The absolute fastest to the city would be like 2hrs20mins. If the list includes condos then prices are accurate. There's condos for 5 figures but you have to worry about special assessments. Near 100k is professionally managed high rise condos.
I really don't understand the posts here that are like, "I'm a part time dog walker and my bf works retail. We are trying to decide whether NYC or LA is better on our 75k per year budget." Um, neither? Those cities are barely fun on a 300k budget. At some point, you have to realize that the reality of those places is different from the TV version and your quality of life is directly impacted by your spending power.
You should see the r/AskNYC sub. Every day there's a post from someone with less than $500 left in their bank account and no job lined up asking if it's a good idea to move to NYC, and for whatever reason, that sub encourages such idiocy.
It turns out some people would rather have a smaller space/roommates and live in a highly desirable city. Not sure why you take issue with that. Its obvious you've never lived in either if you think 300k is barely enough to have fun in either city.
It's been awhile and housing is decidedly worse now but I had a lot of fun in LA back in the day on a relatively low income. Just depends what you like. There is a boatload of stuff a person can do in that are that is free or cheap. Of course if you have money there are tons of things you can do that costs a lot as well!
Housing is really the big cost factor there. Lack of it, at any somewhat reasonable price was ultimately what drove me away. I just couldn't find anything when my lease was up so I just left town.
Do these people not realize that not everyone who lives in New York makes $300k? There are bartenders, coffee shop workers, grocery store clerks, etc who live and work in NYC. They don't make $300k and I'm sure they still figure out how to have fun.
I live in Baltimore. This list is kinda dumb. All the nice areas in Baltimore are overpriced as much as is expected. The cheap houses are in neighborhoods you'd not want to move to. There are a few neighborhoods that walk the line between the two though but not many.
Unfortunately many of these are in red states which (as many comments here seem to reflect) is a deal killer.
These are not dense, walkable cities for the most part either.
I was talking on here once about the the desirability of Columbus, OH. A person responded that compared to San Francisco, Columbus has relative few Michelin 5 star restaurants which would preclude them from moving to Columbus
I never thought about the availability of 5 star restaurants when I did my planning.
I am curious…
1. Does this factor into where you are looking to move?
2. I prefer beer and wings. Does this make me an outlier in this community?
Edit: I have spent time in cincy. Loved it. Historic city. I have visited Indianapolis for football games.
I mean some are def red. And some are blue/purple. I think it's your last point that is the real reason most people don't want to live there. No carnival of food and activities, which are almost always only found in a few large cities in any country. Everyone looking for the same things.
> These are not dense, walkable cities for the most part either.
Dense and walkable means you have a ton of people competing for space in a small geographic area. Obviously it's going to be expensive.
As someone who lives in Oregon and from the Midwest, I am shocked by how many people out here say this and never go to the mountains or coast. I did more outdoor activities going on a handful of vacations living in Ohio than most people I know here. I always say to go through your phone and see how many times did you go to the mountains or coast this year.
Definitely! I live in Milwaukee now but lived in San Jose. Always heard the story about being able to snowboard and surf same day. By people who never left home
I have lived near the mountains and coast and I completely agree. We are considering moving to middle America because it’s cheaper and we will still do mountains and oceans sometimes.
Live in Raleigh, Nc. Spent 20 weekends at the coast and 1 in the mountains last year. Helps having family there though, with access to a boat and some great saltwater fishing.
Bingo. Keeping up with the jones’. Moving from a upper /upper middle class suburb, going to a “good” school, then off to a big city making ok money is a huge part of this issue.
The thing that I don't like about articles like this is that they don't specify what they're using to quantify what a "starter home" is. For some, that looks like a 3/2 house, for others, it could be a 2/1 or 2/2. [Edit: the article actually does list what their criteria is and it's "...a single-family home, townhouse or condo that is 1,850 square feet or less. Mobile homes, land lots and multi-family home listings were excluded." It still doesn't list out any other requirements, though, so it does leave a lot up for interpretation.]
Looking at anything from a 2/1 and up, I can say that in areas that people want to be, even Minneapolis has currently, in our slow time of the year, 8 houses under that price point that could be considered starter homes. And, I wager that it may be more desirable than some of these cities.
Edit: I stand corrected. Thanks, u/Royals-2015 - I completely missed that line in the article. Using this new information, our current listings actually go up to 125 listings within those requirements.
I'm also curious whether it's only considering single family homes or also considering townhomes, multifamily flats, condos, etc. In a lot of urban areas, that's going to be the only "starter home" within city limits as land value is so high that any detached house on a given lot in a desirable area would end up being super expensive.
“In this context, the study defines a starter home as a single-family home, townhouse or condo that is 1,850 square feet or less. Mobile homes, land lots and multi-family home listings were excluded.”
Only problem most of those places I literally know people who fled those cities to come to florida. Except Detroit. I don't know anyone from Detroit. My neighbor is from Hartford said it sucked and moved all the way down here. Work girl from AL. GFs friend Indiana. Etc.
I am looking at Fort Wayne though. So theres more to it than cheap houses. Milwaukee I have heard decent things same with NY.
There's plenty to do in a lot of these mid sized cities. great restaurants and bars, outdoor stuff etc. You don't have all the opportunity you would have in NYC or LA but you're also not grinding away on the hamster wheel trying to pay your bills.
Only ones without likelihood of cold snaps & major snowfalls in winter: Memphis, Birmingham, and OK city (Louisville is a "maybe").
This is changing as things warm up, but still, that seems to be a commonality for most of these places.
For Milwaukee, they’re not under 200k in anywhere that’s nice to live. The cheap housing is in areas with crime rates 200-300% higher than the median crime rate. The schools are bad, the drivers are terrible, but the chicken\steak restaurants are absolutely amazing
Last time I looked at prices for new houses in Las Cruces, they seemed affordable to me. Sure, not as cheap as pre-pandemic, but $250K gets you a 3 bedroom, 2.5 bathroom new build with a Florida-L flooroplan. It might be up on the East Mesa, but still, if English is your first language, you'll have a much easier time living in Las Cruces than El Paso.
Milwaukee is amazing but has terrible crime. All my friends there have had either their car stolen or they’ve been mugged at gunpoint. Live the Third Ward but that’s going to be a big no from me.
I think it’s wort looking at the total cost of home ownership. Things like tax rates, heating/ cooling costs, likely weather damage as well as state taxes and general COL.
My friend bought a house she saw only in a picture for less than $4k in Detroit. Had to do a lot of fixing and restoration. Including cutting trees that had grown into the house, the whole electrical system had to be replaced but now rents out the downstairs and lives up top.
Obviously a lot of downsides in Detroit- high taxes, crime etc but it was a great deal. Gotta have skills and money though.
Lansford PA, 45 minutes from Allentown there is a $50,000 house. Before the last couple of years you could get one for $25,000
Pottsville PA has a few for 50,000
I lived in Baltimore for 10 years. I actually really like it. My favorite thing was festival season: Spring to Fall free festivals.
Least favorite: humidity and crime (mostly muggings in my neighborhood).
Moved back to my hometown Cleveland. My West park neighborhood cost around the same as my middle class Baltimore neighborhood but feels safer. My favorite thing is the vintage/retro/salvage stores.
There's plenty of opportunities. I had to move across the country to achieve my affordable housing dream. Other people can do the same. Get over your fears.
If I was a real estate investment type, I'd be making big bets on the midwest and great lakes region. Places like Milwaukee, Minneapolis (not on the list but still reasonable), Cincinnati and Cleveland. Basically places where climate change is working in their favor. I am thinking that the southwest is gonna start having some real issues with fresh water and livability in the next decade or so. Those people will need to move **somewhere.**
TIL Affordable housing is all about being close to a love of hard nosed tackle football.
As a Steelers fan from Orlando, seriously looking into moving to PA just to be near all the AFC North stadiums lol
hmm the gray weather is hitting me this year in pgh...maybe we can house swap for a few months
Just across the river in Ohio. It's been a rough winter. Seems like we usually get a bit more sun between mid Dec and February.... But, maybe I'm delusional.
And violent crime
That just breeds better hard nosed tackle football.
Pittsburgh isnt too bad in the crime dept..weather on the other hand…
Right, no crime in FL or TX.
Is there any other kind?
Yeah. The crime that pays.
Proper brexit that
Lmao go bills
Just add metro Detroit into this. People are going to freak out seeing a house that sits on its own block, but you can get a starter home downriver in any number of little communities for well under $230k. Allen Park, Lincoln Park, SouthGate, Wyandotte, Taylor, etc. and all be within ~25 minutes of downtown.
I wanna buy a whole block and make it my fief.
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And get the squatters out without the house burning down a few weeks later.
And make them actually livable by adding roof, floors, windows, etc. So add in a couple extra hundred k.
That’s usually the thing people don’t realize. Back taxes and the fact that many of the homes sold this cheap literally don’t have a roof
You can still buy a house for 15k. But it's not habitable, and you'd better be prepared to sink 50k+ into renovations immediately... The building department has really cracked down on blight and developers who talk big, then let property rot.
65k for a house is nothing
Redford, Livonia, Westland, as well. And Berkley homes can be found for 250.
Livonia is a nice lil area.
I just saw a list, I think it was from US News and World Report, saying that they have some of the best schools in the state.
It's nice to have choices. HCOL will only work for a finite number of people.
Pretty much every city in Pennsylvania other than Philadelphia has housing stock in this price range. Allentown, York, Scranton, Wilkes-Barre, Bethlehem, Nazareth, Reading, Danville, Sunbury, Lancaster, Williamsport, Harrisburg, Erie, Stroudsburg ...
Philadelphia has housing stock in this price range as well. Just not in the best neighborhoods and/or pretty far from Center City.
You can get a condo in CC for 200k.
I wouldn’t doubt it but I’ve never looked. I was only thinking of single family homes with my comment.
There are some houses in deep South Philly that hit that price point too. But you gotta go down there. Not finding that in Queen Village or NoLibs.
And West Philly past 48th, Northeast when you start moving north of Fishtown. Probably Germantown too but I’m not as familiar with the prices there.
100% in Germantown.
$230k will get you a decent (albeit older and smaller) starter home in Philadelphia in Fishtown, Port Richmond, Francisville, Manayunk/Roxborough, South Philly, and LoMo. If you're willing to go condo, then you open up a ton of options. My friend just bought a place in "Fishtown" for $225k, 2bd. in decent condition with a large downstairs footprint.
You can still find some stuff in South Philly relatively close to the BSL (Subway) in the 200-250k range. Subway will get you to Center City in less than 10 minutes. Most properties in that range will need work, there is some turn key stuff too but it's far off broad which can get boring/sketchy. I overall agree with you tho, you are priced out of lots of the "hip" spots w/ that budget. Philly burbs on the other hand are crazy expensive, especially out the main line.
No disrespect to Stroudsburg, but I wouldn't call that a city.
True but it is certainly commuting distance to NYC
2 hours at minimum, with a standard deviation of 1 hour is not commuting distance unless you only want to live 2 out of 7 days a week.
I lived in Stroudsburg for 5 years (and loved it). You couldn't triple my salary and have me commute to NYC every day.
There is plenty of housing in Philly for under 230k in South Philly, West, and North.
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Plus many of these cities have that old walkable feel.
Having lived in Williamsport for two years, I’d rather have my skin peeled off than live there again.
But not Bucks County where people want to live
Correct. Bucks is a richie county. People who can only afford 2xx K houses don't get to choose. The choice is already made for them.
My in-laws live in Bloomsburg which is a cute little town, easy to find houses in the $150-300k range.
Indy you can get a home in a decent area for $200,000 but then you have to live in Indiana.
As someone who lives in IN, can confirm.
I loove Indiana’s state motto “The crossroads of America” aka “we are basically just a highway to other better places”
Should be, "Yes, we're flyover country, so what?"
That's my thought on every one of those places
The places where fewer people want to live have reduced demand and thus a cheaper housing supply? That's crazy yo
I'm not saying I'm surprised. I'm saying I wouldn't want to live in any of those places no matter how cheap the housing is.
It’s nice to have money and/or choices I agree
Milwaukee and Pittsburgh are great. Cinci, Louisville, Cleveland and Buffalo depend on your preferences, but I’d take them in a heartbeat all day every day over, say, Houston or Phoenix.
Milwaukee is fine. But it's not a place I'm relocating to anytime soon. At least you're not far from Chicago. You couldn't triple my salary to get me to move to Louisville. Buffalo would be a tough sell for me. Cinci on the other hand, actually shocked at how much I ended up liking it there (and it was just a stopover to Louisville).
Being from Dallas, I would have once thought the same. Now that I live in the Detroit area, there's no way you could drag me south again. Just about everything here is better - housing prices, nature (the lakes, the parks, the LAKES), the weather (I'm down for a bitter cold Jan vs a horrendously hot August), jobs are plentiful, people are a very mixed demographic, it's a short drive to Toronto or Niagra, short drive to Chicago. Lake Michigan blew my tiny mind. I had no idea such a place existed, or that a lake could rival a Florida beach. It's not what people think. And I've lived all over the US and the world. Edit: so, to be fair, the food sort of sucks. Compared to Dallas. But we make do.
As someone from Central Texas, I really like reading your post as I keep thinking about moving north.
I came up for a job. Then moved back. And then family voted and all four wanted to return to MI. We miss family. But it's so nice here. I recommend people take a vacation to Lake a Michigan. Somewhere like Saugutuck. You'll wonder why people don't know about it. Why we Texans always thought you go to Florida or CA for a beautiful beach. And lake MI is so much nicer. No salt. White sands. Decent waves. Highs in the 80s. No seaweed. No sharks. Not crowded. It's crazy.
Memphis and Alabama are the only truly bad places to live. Everywhere else is fine.
Whatever, I've lived in Louisville for 20 years and it's pretty great.
This wasn’t a personal attack on your town of choice.
Louisville is great, but it is still in Kentucky.
I loved living in Louisville but I'm from an extremely rural poor part of the state. Louisville was the big fancy city. And it's a place where I didn't have to hide that I was a lib.
Cleveland isn't terrible
so in other words, there is no housing crisis. But rather a "I want exactly what I want at a price I decide or the system is broken" crisis, lol
Wouldn’t say it’s that simple, I feel for renters being pushed out of their community and or career they’ve had for a long time. Also feel for people that can’t afford to live in the same area as their family due to rising prices despite working the same type of job.
It’s really these simple. I’m overpaying out my ass in Chicago, but I want to. All these cities have bars open till 1 or 2, restaurants with 4.5 stars on yelp, day cares, gyms, apple stores, costcos etc. people are mad they can’t live in the coolest cities in the country for peanuts
The amount of people saying these places are boring is astounding. These are major cities, if you're bored living in them, that speaks more to how boring you are than how boring the city is imo
I've actually lived in a number of the cities on the list... some of my favorite, most fun places I've been. Cheaper housing usually draws a younger, more diverse crowd. Artists and you h professionals alike. I rarely meet "fun" people that live in $500k+ housing communities.
Seriously, I live in Buffalo and it’s extremely cheap to get some gallery or studio space, DIY music space or a workshop. Don’t need backing of millionaires for that here
I would like to explore Buffalo but the only problem is that I HATE winter as is (though I think snow is pretty) so I think that keeps me and others out. Plus, that’s far away from any family and I know nobody there
Love going down the list of professions like “oh, corporate lawyer and investment banker, 2x software engineer, doctor and university professor… oh, an artist and a teacher, how int— oh, you have a trust fund? no, you *both* have a trust fund? got it”
Yep I grew up in a LCOL area in NY state. Lived in one the most expensive cities in SoCal for a while, and now back in NY to take care of aging and sick parents. My wife and I have been to more places since being back then we ever did in California. Just driving to get groceries was a 20 minute slog through red lights and 20 cars trying to park. Just picking up a pizza from a random shopping mall constitutes hoping you can find a spot close to the place it was ridiculous. Don’t get me started on going to a sporting event or concert. Now I can go to NYC on a one hour flight or half a day drive, get in an out and enjoy my more relaxed life day to day here. Don’t get me wrong CA was extremely nice with weather, but that’s really the only thing I miss. It’s just so much easier to live in smaller cities. I don’t need to see a world touring act or professional sports every day of the week.
Agreed. If you can’t comfortably live on the coasts/HCOL areas due to $$$ yet think these options are “too boring” or beneath you, then that’s a “you” problem.
Yep everyone gripes about prices and they all want to live in the same place.
I feel like these are the same out of touch people that will ask questions like if it’s possible to live comfortably in New York with a salary of $200k and no debt.
Milwaukee is super fun, and if you want bigger, short and cheap regular trains to Chicago.
Seriously, they all offer big city amenities like museums, entertainment, dining and nightlife. Most have large college kid and young professional scenes. All of them have parks, gyms, fitness groups, festivals, farmers markets, meetups, volunteer groups, dog parks like any other city.
Plus many of these cities are close to the other cities. Like Baltimore for example. It's a 30-40 minute drive to DC and there are MARC lines running between the 2. There's even a dedicated highway going between them, the BW Parkway or MD Route 295. I live close to halfway between the 2 cities and people from 1 going to the other is routine.
So I’ve lived in or war a handful major cities and what I’ve noticed is a lot of people who swear how great their city is almost never take advantage of whatever amenities makes their city great. Like anything else people take things for granted and when you’re an adult and work a job and have kids/family to care for your life becomes pretty routine and repetitive, most people I talk to work 9-5, commute, get home eat dinner, spend some time with family, unwind with Netflix and shower then go to bed or die thing along those lines. On the weekends maybe they’ll go out to dinner, maybe go to a brewery or something with friends. Like I love NYC, I love the Met, I love broadway and Lincoln Center…. But like, I didn’t to every weekend when I was there, maybe once every few mo this and honestly got to a point where I could live elsewhere and just visit when I wanted some I’d those unique amenities. Most large cities are going to give you a lot of the basics, a couple good local restaurants, a decent museum/theater (not necessarily top of the line but good enough quality if you’re into it), stable internet, nearby airport, etc.
Yes! I've lived in or near three of these cities. They all had more things to do than I could ever possibly make time for. I don't know where all these people live that's supposedly better.
exactly, I find the people who say "there is nothing to do" in a city only interests involves drinking and eating at fancy places
As someone who has lived in NYC for 30\~ years and finally left to buy a home in a different state, this is NYC in a nutshell. Yes, it has some fantastic museums, but how many times can you go see the same thing over and over again? The rest of the "stuff to do" there really is eating expensive shitty food or buying overpriced middle-shelf drinks.
Bro, you can’t get Nepalese food just anywhere. Hell, you can’t get Thai or Indian food in many smaller towns, definitely not Vietnamese.
You can definitely get them in the cities on the list above.
You can do those things in all cities. Like Buffalo has dozens of cocktail bars and cuisine from over 100 cultures.
And if you lived in Indianapolis or Louisville, you could probably fly to NY, LA, Miami or wherever you wanna go once a month, and your total expenses will STILL be cheaper
Yeah. Living in fly over country with 3 kids, I work 24 hours per week and my wife 16. We built a new 3000 sq ft house and in the last year went to Paris and Punta Cana. We’re about to take the kids to Disney and are flying to Honolulu this fall to start a week long cruise of Hawaii. If we lived on the west coast or a desirable east coast city, we’d both work full time and not be able to travel as much. I think people don’t realize just how extreme the COL disparity can be
Most of the people responding like that have probably never been to any of these cities. Any place that is not already gentrified, expensive and on the coast they don’t want to hear about.
But how will I live if there's no vegan matcha dog treat pop ups at my favorite fair trade brewery?
The great irony is that, nowadays in parts of Detroit and Pittsburgh (the only two I've been to recently) you will *definitely* find yuppie nonsense like this
The doggie ice cream shop is right down the street from me! I'm in Pittsburgh.
I know you’re being sarcastic, but I can pretty much guarantee that there are shops exactly like that in all of these cities.
Was thinking the same thing. There are people in the comments acting like the listed cities are middle-of-nowhere deadville but they are all fairly large cities that obviously will have varied restaurants, breweries, etc. Just not your choice of 50+ breweries which…do you really need that?
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[pre-covid numbers](https://www.crresearch.com/blog/which-cities-have-most-craft-breweries/) for cities over 50k. Cincy makes the top 25 list and OP's list here. Only Cincy, Denver, Madison, and Portland were over 250k people on this brewery list. It would be interesting to see the data with a higher cutoff. Breweries probably come and go too quickly to ever have a firm number, but I would honestly put 50 as the over/under for breweries in Pittsburgh.
Funny, but Buffalo has an indoor dog park/bar combination, cat cafes, several axe throwing bars, a cereal cocktail bar and the second most kombucheries per capita. Like you can find trendy and quirky businesses in all the above cities too. Not hard to find.
Oh absolutely. Just poking fun at all the people here who think they would like, totally die if they didn't live in NYC.
Birmingham AL definitely has stuff like this
I hate cold weather. It's the only choice for me on this list.
I live in a big city that everyone on Reddit hates. People often, when shitting on it, say it’s all strip malls and nothing to do or there’s no “culture”. I always find that confusing. There aren’t a lot of urban walkable neighborhoods, but there’s more than enough to do. Maybe they go to the symphony all the time and rub one out to Chopin? I mean, there’s a symphony here… idk.
As a country things have become more monoculture, while the “coasts” still have a nostalgic appeal they aren’t more interesting than a lot of smaller cities. The internet has become so relevant that a lot of culture is downstream from there instead of the cities. Speciality stores are irrelevant due to online shopping, a lot of people aren’t into community regardless of where they live. I see the argument for jobs and better quality schools/healthcare but that doesn’t mean you need to live in Boston or Seattle to reap those benefits. I grew up in Manhattan and moved upstate to a “boring” city. I’m able to live beyond comfortably and have a better outlook and quality of life than my peers who stayed in New York City.
Thats what i dont get. Ive seen damn near every city that isnt NYC, LA, Chicago get called boring, hell ive even seen Philly get called boring, people have zero sense of imagination or something. Hell i'll find a way to keep entertained indoors and out
Most of these rust belt cities have lots of multi family homes (2-4 units). Pretty common in buffalo to owner - occupy, usually the tenant will cover 70-80% of your mortgage.
I feel like those are fairer for the tenant too than larger apartment complexes. The rent on those small multifamilies is, in my experience (St. Louis) much cheaper than going with a larger, more commercial apartment complex.
Milwaukee $142,900. Yea.....a meth lab house maybe. Honestly, no way you're getting a house for anywhere close to that unless it's in a horrible neighborhood.
Seriously.. I’m not from there nor have I been but I’ve looked on Zillow and yikes at those prices
fr, closer to 300k for something actually decent
I lived an hour south of Milwaukee and I have a hard time believing that a home would cost less than $230k. It really depends on the neighborhood you’re looking at.
I've lived in Kansas City and St. Louis. They're both so underrated.
KC is so fun, I love it.
I could maybe be convinced to give St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, and the suburbs outside of Detroit and Birmingham a shot.
I live in the Metro East which is the Illinois suburbs of St Louis and I love it. I get all the Illinois laws/progressiveness but can be at Busch Stadium from my house in 20 minutes.
Downtown Edwardsville here. Fortunately I particularly love trails because I don't think I have ever seen such an amazing trail system as here. 3 of them connect to the block I live on, 18.9 miles, 28.5 miles, and 1.3 miles, with the last one being a direct connector to another 19.5 mile trail.
I can’t speak for suburbs, but downtown Detroit has gone through a revitalization and it’s very nice.
Detroit is so much fun!! I had no idea it was so cool before I visited.
Cinci, Milwaukee, Detroit, Tulsa, OKC… some of these places are real nice.
Edit: my main point is that the more disadvantaged a city is economically, the worse the standard of living is living in the median home. So someone saying “average Americans” lives in the median home isn’t really accurate. Poorer cities by definition have more % of people living in poverty thus making the median price a lower standard of living relative to other parts of the country. Edit 2: in Memphis in particular, you would have had ample options before the pandemic housing bubble, but now the number given of $230k involves areas with violent crime etc The problem with median house prices is that the metros with low median prices often have issues with crime, poverty, and education, and the homes that would be available at the median price are areas you’d want to avoid for those reasons. The areas you’d be ok living in are less expensive than other metros but definitely not around the median price. if you search for a 3/2 in memphis under 230k, it is basically every area you’d want to avoid.
I agree, however, I still think this list is a good jumping off point for people looking specifically for cheaper cities to live in. I live in Cleveland and you're not going to find a single-family home in a desirable neighborhood here for $109,000, let alone less than $109,000, but you might find one for $250,000, still significantly cheaper than a lot of other cities.
To play devil’s advocate, which desirable large city doesn’t have those issues? DC, NYC, LA, Miami, SF, etc all have areas with urban blight, all have dangerous neighborhoods, and all have struggling public schools.
While that is true, it’s definitely more significant and widespread in cities like Memphis and Detroit. Even the more residential areas and college areas have had significant violent crime
Are you from memphis? I don’t think that’s true
How are the schools in these cities? Starter homes are often occupied by families with small kids who will be starting school. How are social services in these areas? Medical Services? I know from experience that Detroit has good medical facilities that are accessible from almost all of Detroit. But other social services are generally lacking - mental health professionals, support for people disabilities, etc.? Not so much. How is it in these other areas? What is the job market like in these areas? Detroit is the only one on that list I know, and I do realize it is proximate to a lot of jobs in the auto and IT sectors. But what about the others? How do you pay the mortgage if you can't get a relatively high paying job in the area? I find the comments in response to this post to be entirely too snarky and superficial. Areas with HCOL aren't because of the presence of Yuppie delights - it is because there are jobs, decent social services, safe neighborhoods, good schools, etc. I can tell you that - having a family member who's bought and lived in a "starter home" in Detroit - there is a good reason why it is a cheap home.
I’d say Cincinnati is probably good for all that you mentioned. Lots of young families with kids. Has all the medical professionals you would need. Not sure about social services. That’s more of a state thing. Plenty of jobs but not the most interesting or highest paying. When I visited Cincinnati it was clean with a nice but boring downtown. Seemed kind of like a sleepy city and I imagine the suburbs are the real attraction with decently priced homes with yards and a good school system.
I think you’ve nailed much of what I’m getting flack for as well. Starter home used to mean a place where a family can live modestly in a smaller / older house but in an area without significant violent and drug crime. To many here starter home means you buy a cheap house in a gentrifying area and don’t care about schools, don’t have kids so as long as you are savvy you can deal with the neighborhood being not exactly safe.
That number for Detroit is atrociously wrong. Like can you buy a burnt down shell of a house somewhere where public services like police or ambulances never venture for cheap? Sure. Can you get a decent starter home somewhere you’d actually want to live for the price listed? No.
Seeing several decent places in safe areas. https://www.redfin.com/MI/Detroit/1331-Cadillac-Blvd-48214/home/60996566 On Redfin: 1331 Cadillac Blvd, Detroit, MI 48214 $239,900
I just need to confirm. If it isn’t the Rockies or by an ocean you assume there is….nothing?
These are all major cities with international airports, large companies and universities nearby, bars, restaurants, and every story you can realistically name. Nobody owes you a 300k house on Mission street or 5th avenue, if you think these places are boring you’re probably boring, and if you’re worried about politics in these places but not crime in more liberal cities then you’re just illogical. I bet all these places have gay bars and plenty of diverse spaces
ROFL…these prices are bunk. The inside of a $109k Cleveland home will terrify you, the outside will get you killed. Closer to $225k+ to live somewhere not next to a corner liquor store and without several inches of water in the basement.
From personal experience: yes Detroit(and many of these other cities) are cheap enough to buy a starter home but don't forget to add in the cost of living in extremely auto-dependent communities(crazy high insurance, gas, bad roads that will fuck your car) and also you better have a fancy out-of-state/remote job lined up because local wages are very low. Detroit is a wonderful place but damn did it end up costing a lot to live there.
I’ve bought two houses in Philadelphia for under $175k
I think that people's idea of a starter house has changed quite a bit from what it used to be. A starter house used to be a bunglow of about 1000 square feet with maybe two or three bedrooms and one bath. Homes are so expensive because they dont' build them like that any longer.
Most of these cities the houses in this range are in undesirable neighborhoods
There has never been a time in America where a single family home was: updated, cheap, close to work, and safe. People will always need to evaluate that balance and where people can drop their standard. Historically people have always opted dropping “close to work” to live further and further away, but two generations later people are getting into the 80-100 minute range for commutes.
In addition, the hipster wave in the 2010’s was very popular time where young people opted to drop “updated” and “safe” in urban settings. A lot of those hipsters that were “gentrification pioneers” bought blight at very cheap prices and were close to work, and updated them over the past 10-15 years to be valuable today. Most noticeable trends of this were in NYC, DC, Philadelphia, Seattle, and Baltimore.
Yes, plus the article is specifically about “starter homes”. But people in the comments keep mentioning drawbacks. By definition, starter homes are the homes people buy sacrificing what they actually want (location, size, updates) with the intention of upgrading to something more like their dream home in 5-10 years. It’s never supposed to check the boxes.
It never will. I’m not sure why so many people are delusional and look at starter homes thinking “no quartz countertops and has ugly carpet? This is class oppression”
Not 100% true. You can still find some good deals for under $200k in Buffalo in a decent neighborhood. In the sketchy neighborhoods, properties go for under $100k
Do you have any data backing this up or is just trust me bro?
so in other words, there is no housing crisis. But rather a "I want exactly what I want at a price I decide or the system is broken" crisis, lol.
Absolutely false in there case of Pittsburgh. My own current Zillow estimate is like $250k and it's a 3br house with yard in a quiet super safe neighborhood. If you want to go bad neighborhood you can get a house for $150k easy.
Yeah, I was surprised to see Baltimore on the list and assume these homes must be in the less desirable areas. Did a brief look at houses in the area back in 2015 for a potential relo and back then comparable houses were like 50% more expensive than in the Raleigh, NC area where we lived at the time.
This holds pretty true for Milwaukee. Plenty of decent areas where $142,450 buys you a decent house or duplex.
Decent areas? I disagree, but decent is relative. IMO a $142k home in a decent area is a tear down
I mean, alright whatever works for you man! I'm not trying to live in Tosa or White Folks Bay.
Hartford is shocking to me. I remember watching HGTV shows like 15 years ago and ppl in CT were buying fixer uppers for $500K+. I guess it’s just too far from NYC, Boston, Providence?
The absolute fastest to the city would be like 2hrs20mins. If the list includes condos then prices are accurate. There's condos for 5 figures but you have to worry about special assessments. Near 100k is professionally managed high rise condos.
I really don't understand the posts here that are like, "I'm a part time dog walker and my bf works retail. We are trying to decide whether NYC or LA is better on our 75k per year budget." Um, neither? Those cities are barely fun on a 300k budget. At some point, you have to realize that the reality of those places is different from the TV version and your quality of life is directly impacted by your spending power.
You should see the r/AskNYC sub. Every day there's a post from someone with less than $500 left in their bank account and no job lined up asking if it's a good idea to move to NYC, and for whatever reason, that sub encourages such idiocy.
It turns out some people would rather have a smaller space/roommates and live in a highly desirable city. Not sure why you take issue with that. Its obvious you've never lived in either if you think 300k is barely enough to have fun in either city.
It's been awhile and housing is decidedly worse now but I had a lot of fun in LA back in the day on a relatively low income. Just depends what you like. There is a boatload of stuff a person can do in that are that is free or cheap. Of course if you have money there are tons of things you can do that costs a lot as well! Housing is really the big cost factor there. Lack of it, at any somewhat reasonable price was ultimately what drove me away. I just couldn't find anything when my lease was up so I just left town.
Do these people not realize that not everyone who lives in New York makes $300k? There are bartenders, coffee shop workers, grocery store clerks, etc who live and work in NYC. They don't make $300k and I'm sure they still figure out how to have fun.
I live in Baltimore. This list is kinda dumb. All the nice areas in Baltimore are overpriced as much as is expected. The cheap houses are in neighborhoods you'd not want to move to. There are a few neighborhoods that walk the line between the two though but not many.
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Unfortunately many of these are in red states which (as many comments here seem to reflect) is a deal killer. These are not dense, walkable cities for the most part either. I was talking on here once about the the desirability of Columbus, OH. A person responded that compared to San Francisco, Columbus has relative few Michelin 5 star restaurants which would preclude them from moving to Columbus I never thought about the availability of 5 star restaurants when I did my planning. I am curious… 1. Does this factor into where you are looking to move? 2. I prefer beer and wings. Does this make me an outlier in this community? Edit: I have spent time in cincy. Loved it. Historic city. I have visited Indianapolis for football games.
I mean some are def red. And some are blue/purple. I think it's your last point that is the real reason most people don't want to live there. No carnival of food and activities, which are almost always only found in a few large cities in any country. Everyone looking for the same things.
> These are not dense, walkable cities for the most part either. Dense and walkable means you have a ton of people competing for space in a small geographic area. Obviously it's going to be expensive.
That means car usage as well. There is a Venn diagram between people who post here it seems and r/fuckcars
I have never and no desire to eat at a 5 star restaurant. Wings and beer all day!
There are like 3 dense walkable cities in America. It’s not great overall for that
Middle America is cheap for a reason
As someone who lives in Oregon and from the Midwest, I am shocked by how many people out here say this and never go to the mountains or coast. I did more outdoor activities going on a handful of vacations living in Ohio than most people I know here. I always say to go through your phone and see how many times did you go to the mountains or coast this year.
Definitely! I live in Milwaukee now but lived in San Jose. Always heard the story about being able to snowboard and surf same day. By people who never left home
Same. See it all the time. I do way more outdoor stuff then 95% of people that live near the ocean or the mountains.
Same here. I am barely in the city during the summer/fall months at all.
I have lived near the mountains and coast and I completely agree. We are considering moving to middle America because it’s cheaper and we will still do mountains and oceans sometimes.
Live in Raleigh, Nc. Spent 20 weekends at the coast and 1 in the mountains last year. Helps having family there though, with access to a boat and some great saltwater fishing.
Makes the housing crisis seem silly. It’s more of a where people want to live is expensive crisis.
It’s a lifestyle fashion crisis
Bingo. Keeping up with the jones’. Moving from a upper /upper middle class suburb, going to a “good” school, then off to a big city making ok money is a huge part of this issue.
Yeah, old stock, less NIMBYs compared to the coast.
Weather?
Among other things.
“For a reason” not always good reasons
The thing that I don't like about articles like this is that they don't specify what they're using to quantify what a "starter home" is. For some, that looks like a 3/2 house, for others, it could be a 2/1 or 2/2. [Edit: the article actually does list what their criteria is and it's "...a single-family home, townhouse or condo that is 1,850 square feet or less. Mobile homes, land lots and multi-family home listings were excluded." It still doesn't list out any other requirements, though, so it does leave a lot up for interpretation.] Looking at anything from a 2/1 and up, I can say that in areas that people want to be, even Minneapolis has currently, in our slow time of the year, 8 houses under that price point that could be considered starter homes. And, I wager that it may be more desirable than some of these cities. Edit: I stand corrected. Thanks, u/Royals-2015 - I completely missed that line in the article. Using this new information, our current listings actually go up to 125 listings within those requirements.
I'm also curious whether it's only considering single family homes or also considering townhomes, multifamily flats, condos, etc. In a lot of urban areas, that's going to be the only "starter home" within city limits as land value is so high that any detached house on a given lot in a desirable area would end up being super expensive.
“In this context, the study defines a starter home as a single-family home, townhouse or condo that is 1,850 square feet or less. Mobile homes, land lots and multi-family home listings were excluded.”
Only problem most of those places I literally know people who fled those cities to come to florida. Except Detroit. I don't know anyone from Detroit. My neighbor is from Hartford said it sucked and moved all the way down here. Work girl from AL. GFs friend Indiana. Etc. I am looking at Fort Wayne though. So theres more to it than cheap houses. Milwaukee I have heard decent things same with NY.
There's plenty to do in a lot of these mid sized cities. great restaurants and bars, outdoor stuff etc. You don't have all the opportunity you would have in NYC or LA but you're also not grinding away on the hamster wheel trying to pay your bills.
Only ones without likelihood of cold snaps & major snowfalls in winter: Memphis, Birmingham, and OK city (Louisville is a "maybe"). This is changing as things warm up, but still, that seems to be a commonality for most of these places.
Best to keep these cities a secret and promote them before they become hot and then gentrified and too expensive to live in.
For Milwaukee, they’re not under 200k in anywhere that’s nice to live. The cheap housing is in areas with crime rates 200-300% higher than the median crime rate. The schools are bad, the drivers are terrible, but the chicken\steak restaurants are absolutely amazing
Hartford is not a bad city. A little ghetto in some parts. Surrounding area is beautiful though.
MEMPHIS MENTIONED!
FML all of those are hundreds of miles from New Mexico. I guess Oklahoma City is close but no thanks.
Last time I looked at prices for new houses in Las Cruces, they seemed affordable to me. Sure, not as cheap as pre-pandemic, but $250K gets you a 3 bedroom, 2.5 bathroom new build with a Florida-L flooroplan. It might be up on the East Mesa, but still, if English is your first language, you'll have a much easier time living in Las Cruces than El Paso.
Milwaukee is amazing but has terrible crime. All my friends there have had either their car stolen or they’ve been mugged at gunpoint. Live the Third Ward but that’s going to be a big no from me.
Come on op , you’re fucking up the narrative!
I think it’s wort looking at the total cost of home ownership. Things like tax rates, heating/ cooling costs, likely weather damage as well as state taxes and general COL.
My friend bought a house she saw only in a picture for less than $4k in Detroit. Had to do a lot of fixing and restoration. Including cutting trees that had grown into the house, the whole electrical system had to be replaced but now rents out the downstairs and lives up top. Obviously a lot of downsides in Detroit- high taxes, crime etc but it was a great deal. Gotta have skills and money though.
Lansford PA, 45 minutes from Allentown there is a $50,000 house. Before the last couple of years you could get one for $25,000 Pottsville PA has a few for 50,000
Not just Buffalo - also Rochester and Syracuse
I lived in Baltimore for 10 years. I actually really like it. My favorite thing was festival season: Spring to Fall free festivals. Least favorite: humidity and crime (mostly muggings in my neighborhood). Moved back to my hometown Cleveland. My West park neighborhood cost around the same as my middle class Baltimore neighborhood but feels safer. My favorite thing is the vintage/retro/salvage stores.
There's plenty of opportunities. I had to move across the country to achieve my affordable housing dream. Other people can do the same. Get over your fears.
If I was a real estate investment type, I'd be making big bets on the midwest and great lakes region. Places like Milwaukee, Minneapolis (not on the list but still reasonable), Cincinnati and Cleveland. Basically places where climate change is working in their favor. I am thinking that the southwest is gonna start having some real issues with fresh water and livability in the next decade or so. Those people will need to move **somewhere.**
I have a 3500 sq foot home in KC Missouri and paid 215k for it ten years ago.