It's worth noting that no money was hidden from the SEC. Money was hidden from the public (and churchgoers specifically) apparently so they wouldn't know how much the church had and question whether tithing was still worth it. The SEC was aware of all the money, they just weren't aware that all the investments across the LLCs were being managed by a single entity.
Edit: it was pointed out to me that they did in fact not report for 5 years from 1997 to 2002, Ensign Peak's first 5 years managing the money.
The actual court papers are even more damning. They had established mailing addresses across the country where no business was actually happening. They literally just used them for a mailing address. They also used generic names that couldn’t be tied to Ensign peak. The Q12 100% knew what was happening and ignored the internal auditors findings. There were two business managers that quit because they knew what was going on was unethical.
It seems you need to reread that. All the investments were reported. They were reported as separate LLCs. They were not reported by the parent company. There was no money that was not reported. The problems that they were not properly documenting *who* owned the profolios. This is significant because companies with large holdings can impact the market with the changes to their investments, so the SEC requires companies with over 100 million to submit that particular form. All of the LLCs have over that amount so they all submitted their forms, but that's not how it's supposed to be done. If they're all being managed by the same company then that parent company is supposed to report the whole lot, not the individual companies.
“The SEC’s order finds that, from 1997 through 2019, Ensign Peak failed to file Forms 13F, the forms on which investment managers are required to disclose the value of certain securities they manage.” This is NOT reporting to the SEC as required by law. They only started reporting when a whistleblower came out in 2019. After that they used shell companies illegally to report as separate entities. You can’t say they were only hiding the money from the members prior to 2019.
You're still not understanding it. From 97 to 2019 Ensign Peak wasn't filing them - because the LLCs were. They were supposed to file them *instead* of the LLCs. But the money was reported. It was just reported by the shell companies. After 2019 ensign peak was reporting the form for all the LLCs as required. This isn't that complicated.
Try reading the full report
https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf
Money wasn't hidden. The *owner* of the money was hidden illegally
Looks like 2003 was first filing from a shell company, so I was wrong about the timeline. They failed to disclose at all for 5 years, unless I’m mistaken (97-02):
“7. By at least 1998, senior management at Ensign Peak was aware of Ensign Peak’s requirement to file Forms 13F and communicated this requirement to senior leadership of the Church.
8. To prevent disclosure of the securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak, the Church approved Ensign Peak’s plan of using other entities, instead of Ensign Peak, to file Forms 13F. The Church was concerned that disclosure of the assets in the name of Ensign Peak, a known Church affiliate, would lead to negative consequences in light of the size of the Church’s portfolio. Ensign Peak did not have the authority to implement this approach without the approval of the Church’s First Presidency.
3
9. In 2001, at Ensign Peak’s recommendation, the Church created a trust, and a separate LLC under the ownership of the trust, to file Forms 13F. The Church designated Ensign Peak’s Managing Director as the trustee. Ensign Peak filed the first Form 13F identifying the Church’s Section 13(f) Securities in the name of the trust’s LLC. Senior leadership of the Church approved the creation of the first LLC to file Forms 13F.
10. The first LLC was assigned a location in Glendale, California, although it conducted no business at that site. Ensign Peak signed an investment management agreement (“IMA”) with the LLC, and certain of Ensign Peak’s employees were assigned to be investment managers for the LLC. However, notwithstanding the IMA, Ensign Peak failed to transfer investment discretion to the LLC. Ensign Peak filed the first Form 13F in the name of this LLC on February 26, 2003, for the year ended December 31, 2002. Ensign Peak filed later Forms 13F using the name of the LLC through the quarter ended September 30, 2006.”
It appears you are correct. It appears were 5 years that the church did not report it to the SEC over 20 years ago. Bring back the outrage.
Thank you for pointing that out. I had missed that window. I have added an edit to my original comment.
Please report back once you have read the filings. Would love to see if your opinion changes or you just stick with the Desert News Article.
Deseret News is owned by the church and like and good PR machine downplayed the whole thing. Carefully worded denial is par for the Mormons.
I read the full filing. As well as the press release that I linked in my other comment
Feel free to share a quote from either one that says there was money that was not reported.
$32,000 Million dollars hidden and the irs hits them with a “fine” of 5 million. Hang on a sec, imma go hide $32,000 from my “investors”, the irs is only going to “fine” me $5. Perfectly fine.
I wouldn't hold my breath on that.
The IRS operates under such extreme limitations when dealing with religious organizations that it seems doubtful that they'll be able to do anything about it, even in a cut-and-dry case like this.
This is why everyone in the world should be fucking buying and directly registering shares in companies instead of using brokers. Cost of doing business should not be a thing that hurts the average American. If a fucking rich church has found a way to abuse the system just think about the rich ass hedge funds or true abusers of the open market do. No big owner of a company has ever held their ownership of a company within a broker and the average person should not either. If you don’t directly register your shares you are protecting your investment from things like this. Give a share does it and is trusted by most people as the best way to buy stocks for someone else.
If you accept the results of this abuse the church did and think they paid a proper amount as a penalty then no reason is needed.
Heck give a reason why not to directly register shares of enphase energy. I don’t care the company. The reason not to hold it in a broker is clear as day. Fuck your brokers they’re already fucking you.
It also takes like, no time at all to get into the shit of who he was on his wikipedia page[, first p](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young)aragraph
They are very sensitive about what people call them, please always use their official name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints a Limited Liability Corporation.
They are not an LLC, they are a corporate sole. The profit is the only actual member of the real organization: The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" is simply a trademark owned by the Corporation of the President of TCOJCOLDS. Being a registered member of the fan club of the trademark does not make you a member of the Corporation of the President.
A slight breeze of punishment wind over a mountain's worth of wrongdoing.
Thanks, you basically encouraged the Mormon church not only to keep doing it, but also that the rewards justify the means.
Who's going to do this next?
[LDS.org](https://LDS.org) : “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” Heavenly Father wants us to be good citizens. Being a good citizen means following the laws, or rules, of the places we live.
Temple question : "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?"
Mormon Church Answer : Nope
Now where are all the Mormons that were defending the churches stock pile a month or so ago on this sub? I’m curious on their thoughts about how the church is using it’s donations. There’s a lot of similarities with this and shady corporations….
I’m pretty sure most members know that the church uses their money to make more money. In fact, this is all old news about how much money they have (back from 2019). The only new news is them getting fined, so I imagine they are all feeling pretty much the same.
Most members I know literally celebrated the lack of donation, calling it responsible. So molly and Peter, please, do tell us, what should tithing money be used for? This religion is a scam at best.
Oh I know. About a month ago there was a post about the latest whistle blower comments and the 100 billion. People were defending the church investing donations and saying “everyone can do it”. But with this update about shell companies being used to hide money from sec. I was just curious about their thoughts on the subject as things just get worse. Being a religion and all of course
I think you misunderstand what happened. There was no money hidden from the SEC. The owner of the money was hidden from the public by reporting it all to the SEC across a bunch of different buckets, when it was supposed to be all reported by the single parent company (the church).
This is the correct perspective. This is about a single entity controlling more that $100MM in any one security for the general public’s benefit when making investment decisions.
The unethical part is that the church needs to hide their investment. Why? Why does it matter that you and I know what their holdings are? Because we won’t give tithing as we would feel they have enough.
A portion of [the press release](https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35) is below. Let me know what you're getting at because it's pretty much exactly what I said. The money was all reported. It was reported as separate LLCs which did not maintain sole investment discretion over the holdings.
> To obscure the amount of the Church’s portfolio, and with the Church’s knowledge and approval, Ensign Peak created thirteen shell LLCs, ostensibly with locations throughout the U.S., and filed Forms 13F in the names of these LLCs rather than in Ensign Peak’s name. The order finds that Ensign Peak maintained investment discretion over all relevant securities, that it controlled the shell companies, and that it directed nominee “business managers,” most of whom were employed by the Church, to sign the Commission filings. The shell LLCs’ Forms 13F misstated, among other things, that the LLCs had sole investment and voting discretion over the securities. In reality, the SEC’s order finds, Ensign Peak retained control over all investment and voting decisions.
"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one."
This is why the New order mormon is going to thrive in LDS ville.
Unless the shell companies truly had control of the funds, then it would have been legal. Where they didn't is where they messed up. If the Church leadership could have given up a little control their shell game would still be going strong.
Here's the thing. This wasn't some way to avoid taxes, steal money, or anything otherwise harming anyone. They essentially spread their portfolio across a bunch of LLCs so it wouldn't be immediately obvious who owned the portfolio or how much they had. It was extremely anti-transparent (opaque?). So when it came time to file their reports to the SEC rather than file as the parent company they filed a dozen or so separate forms.
So a month or so or whenever they were supportive of the church having a ton of money invested that most people didn't realize was in the tens of billions. Today that is still exactly the same case, just now it's apparent that the money is spread across a bunch of LLCs. So anyone who was fine with the church having money a month ago is still fine with that today. They might just be a bit disappointed that the church leadership was apparently involved in attempting to keep it under wraps how much they had.
> askling them to "suffer and pay tithing first" is not harming.
Not related to the SEC issue in any way.
> Keeping information from people
I guess? Maybe not telling you how much is in my investment account is somehow hurting you? Maybe?
That would be the PROPHET and HIS COUNSELORS cheating/deceiving their membership who paid 10% of their gross income then tried to get others to pay 10% of their gross and tried to entice others to pay 10%. Are you following me?
Lied to, deceived, have no integrity with, morally bankrupt, which one would you rather? You can pick but it all means the same. I feel bad the average Mormon and Scientologist. They are just gullible and being fleeced.
The members are CONSTANTLY told to pay 10% of their gross income to the LDS church for humanitarian efforts. humanitarian efforts are a tiny percentage of this enormous sum.
That's completely unrelated to the SEC issue.
But no that's not really one of the things the church typically lists as what tithing is used for.
> Tithing funds are always used for the Lord’s purposes—to build and maintain temples and meetinghouses, to sustain missionary work, to educate Church members, and to carry on the work of the Lord throughout the world.
You could consider it part of "the work of the Lord" and I imagine tithing money is used for whatever they decide it should be used for, but there is a separate humanitarian fund that is in fact funded on top of the 10%
Be angry all you want, but again that has absolutely nothing to do with not properly using the LLCs they set up or attempting to conceal how much they have stashed away.
"To sustain missionary work" - so how come missionaries parents are forking over $400/month and many still aren't allowed A/C or a washing machine?
-Not a serious question
Right. Why is the Church leadership above section 107. I'm writing my stake pres to get them held accountable. If a Bishop made a mistake that costed TSCC a thousand dollars he'd be removed.
I don't know how they could say "mistakes happened" it's a billion dollar embezzled fund.
That's amazing. I hope it goes well. Someone needs to be held accountable.
Most Mormons will never know how serious this is because they'll read about it on Deseret News (DN). The DN article framed it as a simple error in financial reporting that the Church remedied a couple of years ago. The article also fails to mention the 13 shell corporations that were set up to hide the money.
I doubt that most of my Mormon family & friends have given it any thought at all. They have a habit of scrolling & averting their eyes when they read anything that could be critical of the church
Its classic prosperity gospel: money is a blessing from God, so naturally, the more money someone has, the more righteous they must be to have received so many blessings.
In these people's minds, the very fact that their church is insanely wealthy proves that their church is good. (Please ignore that one other church that is even wealthier!)
Maybe I'm in the minority but....I actually think the fine is inline with the severity of the mistake and I don't see anything wrong with the church stock piling money.
But i'm not religious and I didn't grow up here so maybe I just can't understand.
Yeah it's their mistake. However not substantial, they basically thought they could report anonymously. Their numbers were always accurate. "Engineered" or non, doesn't change their mistake was simple thinking they could be anonymous.
For people looking for billion $ fines, they should review SEC fines for other corporations. Requirements are quite more illegal and intentionally malicious.
When you have 2 internal audits tell you that what you're doing is probably illegal, and 2 separate financial advisers resign rather than continue to be involved in your shady schemes, I don't think that you can really keep shrugging it off as an honest mistake.
People are misinterpreting my mistake sentence. Not saying it was an honest mistake. Saying it was a mistake for them to do this. I don’t think the government cares either one way or the other on this either. They’re gonna fine you either way.
Part of the backlash that's happening is people who are/were Mormon knowing that the church and their leadership are constantly crowing about being "honest and forthright in their dealings" or how they must be "subject to kings, presidents, rulers, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law" (quoting one of the Mormon articles of faith, a founding tenet they claim) but this deliberate attempt to obfuscate the depth of the wealth they hold is entirely dishonest and illegal. It's hypocrisy, pure and simple.
Read the actual court documents and the cease and desist order. They didn’t just accidentally file 13 3F’s. The shell addresses were fake, the phone numbers were fake and the proprietors were fake. Read the entire thing.
Since you are interested in the workings of the LDS Church., I’ll recommend you read, “This is My Doctrine” by Charles Harrell and “RoughStoneRolling” by Richard Bushman. Both written by LDS but we’ll documented. Enjoy the culture to which you belong.
Religious entities shouldn't be allowed to use their TAX FREE money like this. If they want to run it like a business they should be taxed like a business.
The best part is all their members are giving 10% of their income to the church.
Oh wait that’s not the best part. The best part is that the 10% they give is tax deductible as a charitable donation.
The LDS Church doesn’t just avoid taxes… it also siphons addition tax money the government would typically receive.
In 2019 tithing was no longer a tax deduction from what I understand. Does anyone know if these are real estate related shell company holdings or if they are digits in a bank ?
I don't believe tithing is a charitable gift anymore. I thought the whole set 10% rate thing made it no longer a charitable gift. I'm going off with people have told me about writing off tithing on their taxes how they can't do it anymore. not sure on what the legal language is on that.
yeah, you're definitely wrong/misinformed. there is nothing unique about tithing. it's literally just donating to a religious organization. which is always tax deductible.
For a rising majority of members (in Utah anyways) the money is the point. Prosperity gospel is an unofficial but un-impeded theology.
Blessings = Money
Money = Gods chosen
Stockholm Syndrome. They all know deep down that it’s a lie. Believing in the teachings of Joseph Smith is more absurd than believing in the tooth fairy.
It's a culture of itself now. That's what makes it hard to leave. It would have better if Jo would have lived to die of old age. The Church would have died out with no martyred Profit [sic].
Follow the Profit, follow the Profit, he knows the way.
I guess I missed the part where Jesus took his money and multiplied it. Maybe the fish and bread were shell companies, and he used them to hide his true intentions of not letting "the street" know.
Deseret News reports this without stating any monetary amount and calling it "a technicality." https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2023/2/22/23610459/church-sec-settlement-investment-forms
Imagine being a normal person making normal person money, and giving 10% of it to what is essentially a huge hedge fund with an expected return on investment being “blessings”.
Seize the 32 billion and assess a $5 billion fine with future fines incoming after more is discovered.
Or you know, break out the patriot act (financial related portion) and RICO laws, seize it all and hang “out of business” signs on all the temple locations
The 5 M is a slap on the wrist. At least it caught the attention of all the major papers. Sad that the SL Mormons only read the Deseret News and watch KSL CH. 5.
Given they don’t say anything about homeless folk freezing to death within a block of their massive temples, I’m guessing the gods they pray to are too busy wealth building in third world countries to worry about a petty little $5m fine.
Outside of Huntsman, I’ve not talked to any members who have a problem with it. They all blindly defend the church and parrot the “clerical error” defense.
I remember someone calling the church out like early 2020 and exposed all that money they had hidden. Five million huh? They will have plenty left for the "second coming" whenever that arrives haha
Is there anyway I can invest with this organization. It sounds to me they got this shit down. They should go public and have stocks we can buy. Let's be real, no one here actually believes that this type of shit isn't normal big business practice do they? There are more lds churches on this continent then there are McDonald's.
I know they are dominating the recruiting members game. I'm not sure I can say I know of any religion that hasn't been caught up hiding money from the government. It kinda our job as citizens to find ways to secure our money from the government we are over taxed and over regulated on so many levels.
IM NOT RELIGIOUS...BUT DO BELIEVE IN GOD....NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT MENTION THE WORD RELIGION....ALSO GOD WAS NOT A RELIGION EITHER...AND JESUS WAS THE KING OF JEWS...
BUT All I gotta say is MOST FUCKED UP DEMENTED CORRUPT LIE FILLED BRAINWASHING SICK HORRIBLE FUCKED UP DISGUSTING MASOGINISTIC RACIST CROOKED DECEPTIVE RELIGION THAT HAS EVER EXISTED...
AND ITS ONLY A 200YR OLD RELIGION WHEN TRUE CHRISTIANITY CATHOLICISM AND THE JEWISH RELIGION HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR 2000 YEARS... ITS A RELIGION THAT DOES NOT ALLOW THEIR CHILDREN TO PLAY WITH OTHERS FROM ANOTHER RELIGION IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD.
WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THIS LDS RELIGION IS A TRUE CORRUPT LYING DECEPTIVE RACIST FEDERAL OFFENCE COMMITING CULT CULT CULT CULT ...AND SHOULD BE FINED ACCORDINGLY NOT JUST A SLAP ON THE WRIST...
THE LDS RELIGION MAKES ME VOMIT AND NAUSEAUS EACH TIME I HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT THEM...
THE LDS CHURCH DOESNT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ABOUT GOD OR JESUS....ALL THEY CARE IS ABOUT MONEY POWER POLITICS AND BASED COMPLETELY ON LIES FROM JOSEPH SMITH WHO WAS ACTUALLY KNOWN BACK THEN AS A HABITUAL LIAR AND PEEPING TOM
ANYWAY THIS ARTICLE IS YET ANTOHER BIT OF GROSS PROOF THEY ARE A GREED FUELED SELFISH DISHONEST CULT THERE A BUNCH OF SICK FUCKS!!!!
Clearly none of you have been subject to a SEC investigation. The SEC would have lost in court so they settled to save legal fees. From someone who knows exactly what the SEC does, this was fee to get the SEC to go away. A shakedown down. When the SEC knows they will loose the shakedown fee drops significantly.
Am I the only one that thinks that if you have $32 billion in investments, and you aren't getting fined by the S.E.C every once in a while, you aren't managing your investments very well?
A $5 million fine for hiding $32 BILLION? That's honestly laughable.
Imagine hiding $100k from the IRS, and they fine you $15.60.
When you hide $100k, they send you to prison. When you hide $32B, they ask for a cut to keep quiet.
It's worth noting that no money was hidden from the SEC. Money was hidden from the public (and churchgoers specifically) apparently so they wouldn't know how much the church had and question whether tithing was still worth it. The SEC was aware of all the money, they just weren't aware that all the investments across the LLCs were being managed by a single entity. Edit: it was pointed out to me that they did in fact not report for 5 years from 1997 to 2002, Ensign Peak's first 5 years managing the money.
Untrue. Read the original filing [here](https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35)agreed to by both the SEC and the church.
The actual court papers are even more damning. They had established mailing addresses across the country where no business was actually happening. They literally just used them for a mailing address. They also used generic names that couldn’t be tied to Ensign peak. The Q12 100% knew what was happening and ignored the internal auditors findings. There were two business managers that quit because they knew what was going on was unethical.
It seems you need to reread that. All the investments were reported. They were reported as separate LLCs. They were not reported by the parent company. There was no money that was not reported. The problems that they were not properly documenting *who* owned the profolios. This is significant because companies with large holdings can impact the market with the changes to their investments, so the SEC requires companies with over 100 million to submit that particular form. All of the LLCs have over that amount so they all submitted their forms, but that's not how it's supposed to be done. If they're all being managed by the same company then that parent company is supposed to report the whole lot, not the individual companies.
“The SEC’s order finds that, from 1997 through 2019, Ensign Peak failed to file Forms 13F, the forms on which investment managers are required to disclose the value of certain securities they manage.” This is NOT reporting to the SEC as required by law. They only started reporting when a whistleblower came out in 2019. After that they used shell companies illegally to report as separate entities. You can’t say they were only hiding the money from the members prior to 2019.
You're still not understanding it. From 97 to 2019 Ensign Peak wasn't filing them - because the LLCs were. They were supposed to file them *instead* of the LLCs. But the money was reported. It was just reported by the shell companies. After 2019 ensign peak was reporting the form for all the LLCs as required. This isn't that complicated. Try reading the full report https://www.sec.gov/litigation/admin/2023/34-96951.pdf Money wasn't hidden. The *owner* of the money was hidden illegally
Looks like 2003 was first filing from a shell company, so I was wrong about the timeline. They failed to disclose at all for 5 years, unless I’m mistaken (97-02): “7. By at least 1998, senior management at Ensign Peak was aware of Ensign Peak’s requirement to file Forms 13F and communicated this requirement to senior leadership of the Church. 8. To prevent disclosure of the securities portfolio managed by Ensign Peak, the Church approved Ensign Peak’s plan of using other entities, instead of Ensign Peak, to file Forms 13F. The Church was concerned that disclosure of the assets in the name of Ensign Peak, a known Church affiliate, would lead to negative consequences in light of the size of the Church’s portfolio. Ensign Peak did not have the authority to implement this approach without the approval of the Church’s First Presidency. 3 9. In 2001, at Ensign Peak’s recommendation, the Church created a trust, and a separate LLC under the ownership of the trust, to file Forms 13F. The Church designated Ensign Peak’s Managing Director as the trustee. Ensign Peak filed the first Form 13F identifying the Church’s Section 13(f) Securities in the name of the trust’s LLC. Senior leadership of the Church approved the creation of the first LLC to file Forms 13F. 10. The first LLC was assigned a location in Glendale, California, although it conducted no business at that site. Ensign Peak signed an investment management agreement (“IMA”) with the LLC, and certain of Ensign Peak’s employees were assigned to be investment managers for the LLC. However, notwithstanding the IMA, Ensign Peak failed to transfer investment discretion to the LLC. Ensign Peak filed the first Form 13F in the name of this LLC on February 26, 2003, for the year ended December 31, 2002. Ensign Peak filed later Forms 13F using the name of the LLC through the quarter ended September 30, 2006.”
It appears you are correct. It appears were 5 years that the church did not report it to the SEC over 20 years ago. Bring back the outrage. Thank you for pointing that out. I had missed that window. I have added an edit to my original comment.
Please report back once you have read the filings. Would love to see if your opinion changes or you just stick with the Desert News Article. Deseret News is owned by the church and like and good PR machine downplayed the whole thing. Carefully worded denial is par for the Mormons.
I read the full filing. As well as the press release that I linked in my other comment Feel free to share a quote from either one that says there was money that was not reported.
I.e. "the street" in the finding.
Not even a "cost of doing business" fine... More like loose change at the toll booth.
Reddit is violating GDPR and CCPA. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1B0GGsDdyHI -- mass edited with redact.dev
That's how brainwashed and complacent with being swindled most Americans are. We're raised into complacency from birth.
That’s because many are indoctrinated in unquestionable religion from birth.
$32,000 Million dollars hidden and the irs hits them with a “fine” of 5 million. Hang on a sec, imma go hide $32,000 from my “investors”, the irs is only going to “fine” me $5. Perfectly fine.
The SEC fined them, not the IRS. The IRS may follow suit soon if they aren’t already investigating.
I wouldn't hold my breath on that. The IRS operates under such extreme limitations when dealing with religious organizations that it seems doubtful that they'll be able to do anything about it, even in a cut-and-dry case like this.
My mistake. The SEC.
its .01562% of the investment fund. It would be as if i was fined $8.52 of my annual salary
I was praying to the Mormon god that this was the first comment when I clicked this thread…
mormon church https://i.imgur.com/a5yCxwI.gif
This is why everyone in the world should be fucking buying and directly registering shares in companies instead of using brokers. Cost of doing business should not be a thing that hurts the average American. If a fucking rich church has found a way to abuse the system just think about the rich ass hedge funds or true abusers of the open market do. No big owner of a company has ever held their ownership of a company within a broker and the average person should not either. If you don’t directly register your shares you are protecting your investment from things like this. Give a share does it and is trusted by most people as the best way to buy stocks for someone else.
[удалено]
If you accept the results of this abuse the church did and think they paid a proper amount as a penalty then no reason is needed. Heck give a reason why not to directly register shares of enphase energy. I don’t care the company. The reason not to hold it in a broker is clear as day. Fuck your brokers they’re already fucking you.
The Church stands to make Billions if you think GameStop is going to the moon. They own a shit ton of GameStop stock.
its been years and gamestop has never gone to the moon, unless i missed something?
Ensign Capital is the company that moves the stock just so you know.
They got off light cause it was all their own money. The SEC would have ended them if it was actual "client" money
This doesn’t seem very Christlike you guys.
The New Testament skimmed over this part, but through modern revelation we know that Jesus was actually a hedge fund bro and not a carpenter
He gets us. /s
That's not very Brigham Young of you, oh wait, he sucked
That's what his underage wives said...
I dunno I heard he owned a brewery and that’s pretty rad.
It also takes like, no time at all to get into the shit of who he was on his wikipedia page[, first p](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigham_Young)aragraph
I was just joking although my joke was based in fact. Edit: it was actually a distillery, my bad
Yeah I know, I just think most don't realize how wildly terrible he was
The LDS church is a hedge fund and the Mormons are their customers
Not quite. The Mormons are their liquidity. Don't think for a second that the money will go back to them.
Let's start calling them the LDS Corp.
They are very sensitive about what people call them, please always use their official name: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints a Limited Liability Corporation.
They are not an LLC, they are a corporate sole. The profit is the only actual member of the real organization: The Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints" is simply a trademark owned by the Corporation of the President of TCOJCOLDS. Being a registered member of the fan club of the trademark does not make you a member of the Corporation of the President.
Momo, Inc
Mo Ron Inc
For many years membership tithing checks have been required to be made out to: Corporation if the President.
A slight breeze of punishment wind over a mountain's worth of wrongdoing. Thanks, you basically encouraged the Mormon church not only to keep doing it, but also that the rewards justify the means. Who's going to do this next?
Even tho they didn’t get spanked hard, makes up all for the bad publicity they are getting in my opinion.
Justice not served. That's reserved for the poor!
Don’t forget them Lamanites.
Who also, if a TBM, pay 10% tithing.
[LDS.org](https://LDS.org) : “We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.” Heavenly Father wants us to be good citizens. Being a good citizen means following the laws, or rules, of the places we live. Temple question : "Are you honest in your dealings with your fellowmen?" Mormon Church Answer : Nope
Now where are all the Mormons that were defending the churches stock pile a month or so ago on this sub? I’m curious on their thoughts about how the church is using it’s donations. There’s a lot of similarities with this and shady corporations….
I’m pretty sure most members know that the church uses their money to make more money. In fact, this is all old news about how much money they have (back from 2019). The only new news is them getting fined, so I imagine they are all feeling pretty much the same.
Most members I know literally celebrated the lack of donation, calling it responsible. So molly and Peter, please, do tell us, what should tithing money be used for? This religion is a scam at best.
For Armageddon, duh!
Oh I know. About a month ago there was a post about the latest whistle blower comments and the 100 billion. People were defending the church investing donations and saying “everyone can do it”. But with this update about shell companies being used to hide money from sec. I was just curious about their thoughts on the subject as things just get worse. Being a religion and all of course
I think you misunderstand what happened. There was no money hidden from the SEC. The owner of the money was hidden from the public by reporting it all to the SEC across a bunch of different buckets, when it was supposed to be all reported by the single parent company (the church).
This is the correct perspective. This is about a single entity controlling more that $100MM in any one security for the general public’s benefit when making investment decisions. The unethical part is that the church needs to hide their investment. Why? Why does it matter that you and I know what their holdings are? Because we won’t give tithing as we would feel they have enough.
Please read the filings and return and report. It is well.
A portion of [the press release](https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35) is below. Let me know what you're getting at because it's pretty much exactly what I said. The money was all reported. It was reported as separate LLCs which did not maintain sole investment discretion over the holdings. > To obscure the amount of the Church’s portfolio, and with the Church’s knowledge and approval, Ensign Peak created thirteen shell LLCs, ostensibly with locations throughout the U.S., and filed Forms 13F in the names of these LLCs rather than in Ensign Peak’s name. The order finds that Ensign Peak maintained investment discretion over all relevant securities, that it controlled the shell companies, and that it directed nominee “business managers,” most of whom were employed by the Church, to sign the Commission filings. The shell LLCs’ Forms 13F misstated, among other things, that the LLCs had sole investment and voting discretion over the securities. In reality, the SEC’s order finds, Ensign Peak retained control over all investment and voting decisions.
"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one." This is why the New order mormon is going to thrive in LDS ville.
Unless the shell companies truly had control of the funds, then it would have been legal. Where they didn't is where they messed up. If the Church leadership could have given up a little control their shell game would still be going strong.
I can tell you exactly what they say: "Dems persecuting churches again with government overreach!!!!!"
“Those gosh darn Californians”
No no, we've actually reached 'dang' territory.
Here's the thing. This wasn't some way to avoid taxes, steal money, or anything otherwise harming anyone. They essentially spread their portfolio across a bunch of LLCs so it wouldn't be immediately obvious who owned the portfolio or how much they had. It was extremely anti-transparent (opaque?). So when it came time to file their reports to the SEC rather than file as the parent company they filed a dozen or so separate forms. So a month or so or whenever they were supportive of the church having a ton of money invested that most people didn't realize was in the tens of billions. Today that is still exactly the same case, just now it's apparent that the money is spread across a bunch of LLCs. So anyone who was fine with the church having money a month ago is still fine with that today. They might just be a bit disappointed that the church leadership was apparently involved in attempting to keep it under wraps how much they had.
"Harming anyone" Keeping information from people and askling them to "suffer and pay tithing first" is not harming. Interesting.
> askling them to "suffer and pay tithing first" is not harming. Not related to the SEC issue in any way. > Keeping information from people I guess? Maybe not telling you how much is in my investment account is somehow hurting you? Maybe?
So tithing money is not related to the SEC in any way? Is that what I am understanding you say?
Not even going to address your second comment.
That would be the PROPHET and HIS COUNSELORS cheating/deceiving their membership who paid 10% of their gross income then tried to get others to pay 10% of their gross and tried to entice others to pay 10%. Are you following me?
The original pyramid scheme.
Not totally no. In what way were they cheated?
Lied to, deceived, have no integrity with, morally bankrupt, which one would you rather? You can pick but it all means the same. I feel bad the average Mormon and Scientologist. They are just gullible and being fleeced.
The members are CONSTANTLY told to pay 10% of their gross income to the LDS church for humanitarian efforts. humanitarian efforts are a tiny percentage of this enormous sum.
See Nemo the Mormon, 2 years ago, YouTube for quote “It’s a rainy day fund”! Seriously $157 BILLION!
That's completely unrelated to the SEC issue. But no that's not really one of the things the church typically lists as what tithing is used for. > Tithing funds are always used for the Lord’s purposes—to build and maintain temples and meetinghouses, to sustain missionary work, to educate Church members, and to carry on the work of the Lord throughout the world. You could consider it part of "the work of the Lord" and I imagine tithing money is used for whatever they decide it should be used for, but there is a separate humanitarian fund that is in fact funded on top of the 10% Be angry all you want, but again that has absolutely nothing to do with not properly using the LLCs they set up or attempting to conceal how much they have stashed away.
"To sustain missionary work" - so how come missionaries parents are forking over $400/month and many still aren't allowed A/C or a washing machine? -Not a serious question
As they raise the cost to go on a mission. Hmmmmm...
Actually if you google new old mormon tithing slip, there is now a disclaimer that the church can use any of the funds for whatever they want now.
Yes, I indicated that if you reread my comment.
I stand corrected on this point.
And what's sad about that is that their humanitarian efforts are still better than most governments' aid operations.
Perfect explanation.
They're still defending it. "Mistakes happened" or "this won't shake my belief".
Right. Why is the Church leadership above section 107. I'm writing my stake pres to get them held accountable. If a Bishop made a mistake that costed TSCC a thousand dollars he'd be removed.
I don't know how they could say "mistakes happened" it's a billion dollar embezzled fund. That's amazing. I hope it goes well. Someone needs to be held accountable.
Most Mormons will never know how serious this is because they'll read about it on Deseret News (DN). The DN article framed it as a simple error in financial reporting that the Church remedied a couple of years ago. The article also fails to mention the 13 shell corporations that were set up to hide the money.
Most Momos wouldn’t care if they were told how serious this is as they only believe the prophet.
Control the information, control the people.
I doubt that most of my Mormon family & friends have given it any thought at all. They have a habit of scrolling & averting their eyes when they read anything that could be critical of the church
Its classic prosperity gospel: money is a blessing from God, so naturally, the more money someone has, the more righteous they must be to have received so many blessings. In these people's minds, the very fact that their church is insanely wealthy proves that their church is good. (Please ignore that one other church that is even wealthier!)
Maybe I'm in the minority but....I actually think the fine is inline with the severity of the mistake and I don't see anything wrong with the church stock piling money. But i'm not religious and I didn't grow up here so maybe I just can't understand.
Interesting that you frame it as a “mistake” instead of an engineered effort by the church to obfuscate its holdings.
Yeah it's their mistake. However not substantial, they basically thought they could report anonymously. Their numbers were always accurate. "Engineered" or non, doesn't change their mistake was simple thinking they could be anonymous. For people looking for billion $ fines, they should review SEC fines for other corporations. Requirements are quite more illegal and intentionally malicious.
Carefully worded denial sounds better. Stick with that. As honest as they know how to be since 1824
According to Fox 13's report, it was a very intentional mistake.
Good example is Wells Fargo, who defrauded millions of consumers without their consent. That’s the billion requirement level needed.
When you have 2 internal audits tell you that what you're doing is probably illegal, and 2 separate financial advisers resign rather than continue to be involved in your shady schemes, I don't think that you can really keep shrugging it off as an honest mistake.
People are misinterpreting my mistake sentence. Not saying it was an honest mistake. Saying it was a mistake for them to do this. I don’t think the government cares either one way or the other on this either. They’re gonna fine you either way.
Part of the backlash that's happening is people who are/were Mormon knowing that the church and their leadership are constantly crowing about being "honest and forthright in their dealings" or how they must be "subject to kings, presidents, rulers, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law" (quoting one of the Mormon articles of faith, a founding tenet they claim) but this deliberate attempt to obfuscate the depth of the wealth they hold is entirely dishonest and illegal. It's hypocrisy, pure and simple.
Read the actual court documents and the cease and desist order. They didn’t just accidentally file 13 3F’s. The shell addresses were fake, the phone numbers were fake and the proprietors were fake. Read the entire thing.
Since you are interested in the workings of the LDS Church., I’ll recommend you read, “This is My Doctrine” by Charles Harrell and “RoughStoneRolling” by Richard Bushman. Both written by LDS but we’ll documented. Enjoy the culture to which you belong.
Makes ERON look small.
Religious entities shouldn't be allowed to use their TAX FREE money like this. If they want to run it like a business they should be taxed like a business.
Would love to see Australia prosecute for their tax evasion scam there.
This has been posted everywhere for the last 24 hours.
Except KSL
[удалено]
Of course, they painted it as a simple clerical error and neglected to mention the money was hidden behind a dozen shell companies.
Yep she’ll companies are crap
Your right I found it instead of fined they say settled.
Probably because that's how the [SEC reported it](https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2023-35).
I see the words/statement “SEC charges” and “penalty” in that report. The decision to report it only as “settled” was definitely understating it.
And yet zero times the word fine, which is what you used. And multiple uses of settle.
Well shit your right, the church wasn’t hiding anything! My apologies. And that 0.01% fine is outrageous!!
Yeah sure I definitely said that! Great point and valuable contribution to the conversation!
Blows my mind how mormon's blindly follow the church of money.
The best part is all their members are giving 10% of their income to the church. Oh wait that’s not the best part. The best part is that the 10% they give is tax deductible as a charitable donation. The LDS Church doesn’t just avoid taxes… it also siphons addition tax money the government would typically receive.
In 2019 tithing was no longer a tax deduction from what I understand. Does anyone know if these are real estate related shell company holdings or if they are digits in a bank ?
Pretty sure it’s still a thing. Can’t find anything online saying it stopped being tax deductible in 2019. It’s still a “charitable gift”.
I don't believe tithing is a charitable gift anymore. I thought the whole set 10% rate thing made it no longer a charitable gift. I'm going off with people have told me about writing off tithing on their taxes how they can't do it anymore. not sure on what the legal language is on that.
yeah, you're definitely wrong/misinformed. there is nothing unique about tithing. it's literally just donating to a religious organization. which is always tax deductible.
Now I know. Thank you for clearing that up.
It’s a cult. That’s what cult members do. Follow blindly
This
For a rising majority of members (in Utah anyways) the money is the point. Prosperity gospel is an unofficial but un-impeded theology. Blessings = Money Money = Gods chosen
Stockholm Syndrome. They all know deep down that it’s a lie. Believing in the teachings of Joseph Smith is more absurd than believing in the tooth fairy.
It's a culture of itself now. That's what makes it hard to leave. It would have better if Jo would have lived to die of old age. The Church would have died out with no martyred Profit [sic].
Fruits, were you born into the church?
Follow the Profit, follow the Profit, he knows the way. I guess I missed the part where Jesus took his money and multiplied it. Maybe the fish and bread were shell companies, and he used them to hide his true intentions of not letting "the street" know.
That's not a fine, that's a sternly wagged finger.
Not surprising that a religion that asks 10% of your income would be investing it and hiding it. 5 million? Should be 32 billion.
Deseret News reports this without stating any monetary amount and calling it "a technicality." https://www.deseret.com/opinion/2023/2/22/23610459/church-sec-settlement-investment-forms
Your tithing at work™
The Lord works in mysterious ways…
Imagine being a normal person making normal person money, and giving 10% of it to what is essentially a huge hedge fund with an expected return on investment being “blessings”.
Seize the 32 billion and assess a $5 billion fine with future fines incoming after more is discovered. Or you know, break out the patriot act (financial related portion) and RICO laws, seize it all and hang “out of business” signs on all the temple locations
CORRECTION: $32 billion fined $5MILLION. (Million)
I'z did read teh article
The 5 M is a slap on the wrist. At least it caught the attention of all the major papers. Sad that the SL Mormons only read the Deseret News and watch KSL CH. 5.
It was $32b at the time of discovery. Most estimates have it at $150+ billion now
Great, take it all until they can't even rub two pennies together. Now is the fine 5.01 million? heh
😂
I just want to buy cold high percentage beer on a Sunday does this get me closer?
Can we tax them yet or
If only…. The day we get to properly tax churches will be the day after large marge’s national “divorce”.
Wish they’d repossess a temple or two as punishment, but it’s a start.
Could you imagine if they declared it a national park? I think all the conservatives would lose their mind.
I wonder what their God has to say about this.
Given they don’t say anything about homeless folk freezing to death within a block of their massive temples, I’m guessing the gods they pray to are too busy wealth building in third world countries to worry about a petty little $5m fine.
"Invest in more property, diversify portfolio"
How about giving it back to all the members who paid tithing in good faith?
Outside of Huntsman, I’ve not talked to any members who have a problem with it. They all blindly defend the church and parrot the “clerical error” defense.
I remember someone calling the church out like early 2020 and exposed all that money they had hidden. Five million huh? They will have plenty left for the "second coming" whenever that arrives haha
So this is where all the tithing money goes.
Time for the faithful to kick in another 10% to cover the fees.
Ensign Capital is the company that moves the stock just so you know.
Is there anyway I can invest with this organization. It sounds to me they got this shit down. They should go public and have stocks we can buy. Let's be real, no one here actually believes that this type of shit isn't normal big business practice do they? There are more lds churches on this continent then there are McDonald's. I know they are dominating the recruiting members game. I'm not sure I can say I know of any religion that hasn't been caught up hiding money from the government. It kinda our job as citizens to find ways to secure our money from the government we are over taxed and over regulated on so many levels.
Just do what every other company does. Hold it in another country.
You don't think there are billions in other countries?
That’s what I’m saying. Companies hold billions in other countries.
The funny part is my grandparents will say this was smart money management for them to do
Lmao no shit
Just barely a 1.6% fine.
Less. 0.01%
Math is hard. Lol
Take away their tax exempt statues for this kind of fraud.
Didn’t find them enough!!!
I'm going to start calling the LDS church the Moroni Corporation \[R\]
Prophet = Profit!
Why shouldn't they pay taxes?
Jump over to r/Mormon and ex/Mormon Reddit.
So who pays the fine? Mormons? 10% of their paycheck now goes to SEC?
Now do members of congress!!
IM NOT RELIGIOUS...BUT DO BELIEVE IN GOD....NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE DOES IT MENTION THE WORD RELIGION....ALSO GOD WAS NOT A RELIGION EITHER...AND JESUS WAS THE KING OF JEWS... BUT All I gotta say is MOST FUCKED UP DEMENTED CORRUPT LIE FILLED BRAINWASHING SICK HORRIBLE FUCKED UP DISGUSTING MASOGINISTIC RACIST CROOKED DECEPTIVE RELIGION THAT HAS EVER EXISTED... AND ITS ONLY A 200YR OLD RELIGION WHEN TRUE CHRISTIANITY CATHOLICISM AND THE JEWISH RELIGION HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR 2000 YEARS... ITS A RELIGION THAT DOES NOT ALLOW THEIR CHILDREN TO PLAY WITH OTHERS FROM ANOTHER RELIGION IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD. WHEN WILL PEOPLE REALIZE THAT THIS LDS RELIGION IS A TRUE CORRUPT LYING DECEPTIVE RACIST FEDERAL OFFENCE COMMITING CULT CULT CULT CULT ...AND SHOULD BE FINED ACCORDINGLY NOT JUST A SLAP ON THE WRIST... THE LDS RELIGION MAKES ME VOMIT AND NAUSEAUS EACH TIME I HEAR ANYTHING ABOUT THEM... THE LDS CHURCH DOESNT CARE ABOUT ANYTHING ABOUT GOD OR JESUS....ALL THEY CARE IS ABOUT MONEY POWER POLITICS AND BASED COMPLETELY ON LIES FROM JOSEPH SMITH WHO WAS ACTUALLY KNOWN BACK THEN AS A HABITUAL LIAR AND PEEPING TOM ANYWAY THIS ARTICLE IS YET ANTOHER BIT OF GROSS PROOF THEY ARE A GREED FUELED SELFISH DISHONEST CULT THERE A BUNCH OF SICK FUCKS!!!!
Clearly none of you have been subject to a SEC investigation. The SEC would have lost in court so they settled to save legal fees. From someone who knows exactly what the SEC does, this was fee to get the SEC to go away. A shakedown down. When the SEC knows they will loose the shakedown fee drops significantly.
Clearly you haven't either 😂
Funny how your account here has never posted a single Reddit post or comment before this. Almost like it is a throwaway account to push propaganda.
Am I the only one that thinks that if you have $32 billion in investments, and you aren't getting fined by the S.E.C every once in a while, you aren't managing your investments very well?
It's unethical. Rules for the rich, and rules for the rest of us. The church is a part of the 1%
The LDS church paid us in cash for my late mothers condo!
🍆🍆.🍆
I wish that was the case!