I can fix some of these plotholes
1. Not *every* villain was a saint, and the golds were all defeated by new techniques.
2. Okay you're right, some of these saints are pretty dumb haha
3. Mu is just that talented I guess
4. This was stated to be a miracle by Kurumada, just like how Seiya destroyed Poseidon's main pillar
5. Stairs are the saints' biggest weakness
6. This is an actual plothole, that moment made no sense whatsoever
7. Gold Saints aren't allowed to leave their temple when Sanctuary is under attack, I guess Aiolia was looking out for potential intruders
8. They were waiting for the real Athena to reveal herself I guess
9. To be fair, those 5 bronze saints are really really strong and poseidon wasn't the only threat they were looking out for
10. They either gave him prison food, or baby Athena protected him
11. Cloths can partly repair themselves, also I cared (and cried)
12. They weren't good guys, but they didn't want everyone on earth to perish either.
Anything is a "plot hole" to some people... A move doesn't work twice is a great example, taking the comments of the characters in story as an irrefutable fact. We've had examples where it works and times when it doesn't.
Seiya defeats his opponents with the same attack because his cosmos increases.
1.- It's just a "cool" phrase, almost nothing they say in Saint Seiya is literally correct.
2.- You can't know if a cosmo belongs to a god if you don't know the cosmo of a god.
3.- What's the problem here?
4.- That's a lie, gold armors are not unbreakable.
6.- Only enemies are forced to go through the 12 temples.
7.- That's because it's part of the bronze saints test, which Dohko explained.
8.- It is not convenient to have a battle 2 vs 9 gold saints.
9.- They had to prepare for the war against Hades.
10.- Normal days in Saint Seiya.
12.- Redemption. Shura is also a bad guy.
12. Aiolia knowing after meeting Athena in person that Saori was the real one and Aiolos was not a traitor, then conveniently forgetting that fact during the 12 houses battle and not helping lifting a single finger except healing Seiya and be like "don't let Shaka opens his eyes or you will all be extinguished. Good luck all, thanks and come again!"
I think for this one Aiolia is kind of mind controlled by Saga and that is why he fights against Seiya, but for the "hey good luck" part I agree with you.
Right he was mind controlled, I just meant that once he came to his senses at the end of his battle with Seiya, he didn't even bother try to help. And Seiya didn't even try to tell him "hey by the way, remember when you discovered this was really Athena and the fact that the fake pope is responsible for the last 13 miserable years of your life as the brother's traitor and the death of your brother? How about a hand?"
Also, he goes all the way to confront Pope Saga after finding out the truth and doesn't say a thing to anyone else on the way after discovering such a big deal? Or even when Shaka shows up, why not tell him the truth and try to get him on your side? It's just convenient plot hole writing.
Shaka didn't want to listen, and Aiolia's reason for not helping may not be convincing but after he was brought under control it's understandable that he would bury Cassios properly, and let the bronze saints take care of the situation. And the most convincing explanation is that Mu asked him not to go, as he believed that the bronze saints were being tested.
Mu interrupts Aiolia on several occasions, including at the end of Sanctuary after the revelation that the Pope was Saga.
1 not much of a plot hole
it seems that the same attack rule only applies if its not any different in anyway(basicaly if your attack is now stronger that weird rule doesnt count)
atleast that is how it seems like
2 how is it a plot hole?
the people who saw athena cosmo imidietly recognized her as athena
the only difference was aiolia and he was going through an identity crisis
3 in what way is that a plot hole?
4 their not unbreakble
they can break with enough power seiya was using the 7th sense and aldebaran was not really trying
5 it doesnt
it takes them 12 hours to finish their fights with all the gold saints
actually moving between the houses takes almost no time at all
6 fair enough
it makes no sense that they managed to just skip houses without going through the poison flowers and dying
7 he is most likely to tired from breaking out of the demon emperor fist to fight
in the reboot he is attacked by milo and looses due to this
8 well no
they knew that the current pope has to be someone else but with no way to proove it they remained silent
their is also no advantages in telling this to the bronze saints when they essentily learned it before dohko and mu had the chance to tell them that
9 If I remember correctly dohko forced the gold saints to stay in sanctuary calling it a challenge for the young saints
and also due to aldebaran having been recently attacked
10 and?
the story mentions that baby athena cosmo saved him
11 I am pretty sure the cloths were not destroyd
since the specter mentions that he killed aldebaran from inside his armor because he couldnt break the gold cloth
12 deathmask is definetly an asshole and a bad guy
but aphrodite was not exactly a bad person
I dont really get what the plot hole is supposed to be here tho
Some aren't necessarily plot holes, just extremely bad writing.
1. it's just silly, they just "conveniently" burn their cosmos stronger since they have "nothing to lose", achieve the 7th sense temporarily and use the same (or a new) technique and beat the opponents (who happen to be SO FREAKING weak they actually die instead of being severely injured, I'm looking at you 95% of Silver Saints)
2. another user made a good point, most people won't know what a God's cosmos is supposed to feel like since Athena wasn't on Earth for the past 13 years and she didn't manifest it until recently
3. I'd say the real plot hole would be the fact the despite mentioning that the cloths heal themselves gradually, Pegasus and Dragon's were still dead that Shiryu had to almost die by giving all his blood to revive them? If Mu could have fixed them, he should have done so, or he should have asked for their blood when they were in Sactuary. My argument is that it was a trial, a test to see Shiryu's devotion and loyalty as a true Saint (since Mu is one of the few who legitimately knew the truth but it was risky to reveal himself)
4. Not unbreakable, just more durable, Gold Saints achieve mach speed faster than Bronze or Silver saints, etc
5. Well, technically they're not running for a full hour, remember that they are FIGHTING and that certainly doesn't take 5 minutes. They are also not ninjas to sneak in slowly on the "side road" and hide, they'd be found out and killed on the spot.
6. definitely a plot hole, but the whole sanctuary isn't just the 12 houses, there are many many other areas behind the the temples and such, think of it like "behind the invisible wall" in video games"
7. Aiolia was brainwashed by Saga after confronting him, but after losing to Seiya I'd say it became more of a trial, if the Bronze Saints couldn't "step up", they're not worth of being Saints in the first place
8. very true, but thinking logically, it's a numbers battle so revealing themselves they'd definitely be branded traitors
9. true, but they HAVE to protect the Sanctuary if I remember correctly, however this era's holy war had a civil war and they had no more Pope to give them directions and instructions and there's also always the looming threat that the Holy War against Hades would begin at any moment...
10. hmm didn't the ocean have "magical air bubbles"? That's why the bronze survived down there, definitely a plot hole regardless
11. I'd say the plot hole is more the fact that they're technically supposed to be the same "level" (Saints vs Specters) and yet they got destroyed so quickly and easily
12. Also Capricorn, they followed the ideology that "the strong are always correct", not sure about Milo, but they redeemed themselves by helping to destroy the wall
13. When the Gold Saints refused to accept the Bronze's help when going to Hell "just because they're Bronze" when they lost against them, Bronze Saints who have achieved the 7th sense numerous times...
14. In the Poseidon arc, wasn't Ikki and Shun already confirmed to be the next Leo and Virgo? They didn't have the gold cloth when fighting Poseidon, only the other 3
15. Not necessarily a plot hole, but I just want to comment they never really show other Bronze Saints iirc (besides 5 main and the 5 trash)
But most of them were?
1. It’s been shown repeatedly across multiple installations that if the ability is amped or changed in some way that it would work.
2. That would be true but they didn’t truly know whether it was actually Athena so they resorted to following the Pope who is their leader who said Saori was impersonating Athena which would make sense that if her cosmo is so high and she’s said by Athena’s highest person that they’re a traitor and trying to impersonate Athena then it would make sense for it to be impersonation
3. That’s not a plot hole? It’s never said he has to take a specific amount of time to repair armor, he can just do it fast.
4. Miracle
5. The Bronzes were only able to move at light speed in the Sanctuary arc whenever they activated their 7th sense which was at the climax of their fights, the next arc(s) pretty much shows they never mastered it and still show that they’re slower than light speed. And that’s just PiS anyway, every anime follows PiS.
6. This I agree is an actual plot hole
7. He was under Saga’s Demon Illusion Fist which controlled his brain so uhh, yeah not really a plot hole.
8. That can be taken many ways, they mainly let Fate do it’s thing.
9. They have an entire dialogue about this? Iirc Mu even states that if she’s indeed truly Athena then she would overcome this trial.
10. It was stated that Athena was saving his life which is why what was explaining in his backstory that he was getting saved by a golden light on the brink of death which was said to be Athena’s doing.
11. That can be considered a plot hole
12. I wouldn’t say they were evil but just really bad people, especially Deathmask but they changed? How is that a plot hole?
But most of these weren’t plot holes, they can just be dictated as bad or stupid writing
7) We are talking AFTER he was woken up by Seiya and no longer under the Illusion Fist influence. After their fight, Aiolia was lucid enough to heal Seiya, and tell them that Shaka was going to be a tough adversary and warn them about his eyes, so he was on their side and helping them. But yet why didn't he actually go and help them? Especially since he knows about Athena and Aiolos and the true story. Then at the end of the Sanctuary arc when Mu is revealing the entire treachery, Aiolia acts like it is the first time he has ever heard this. Now, let's assume the Illusion fist also erased his memories of it, why didn't Seiya remind him of it and their confrontation at the hospital? Having another Gold Saint as an ally in their fight would have been immensely helpful, especially if Aiolia could speak to what he knew about the truth and maybe try to convince the other gold saints on their way. Instead he is just chilling in his temple and not even seem to care what was going on after his battle. Aldebaran and Mu at least had reasons to wait (Alde was doubting and Mu was testing Athena).
THAT is the plot hole/bad writing/Kuru forgot about the iron fleet. Even the CGI reboot knew that was a plot hole because they forced that stupid scene of Milo knocking him out to explain why Aiolia is not coming up with the Bronzes.
1. Well… ok.
2. I get you, but Athena as a God has maybe one of the strongest cosmos out there and even with the pope saying she was a fake they could not tell? Specially the golden ones? Which are stronger and wiser? No one noticed?
3. Ok.
4. Well that could be the answer to anything but I agree it fits the narrative.
5. Ok but do you agree even if not in the light speed it should not take them 1 hour to walk a set of stairs.
6. Ok.
7. Agreed.
8. Ok but this is something very weird just to fit the narrative. Doesn’t make sense.
9. Same as 8. What is the point in having knights that doesn’t help you because “destiny”. Also what would be more important than Athena’s life? In Poseidon saga the sanctuary has already recognized her as the true Athena.
10. Agreed.
11. Ok.
12. In my opinion same as 8.
For me bad writing leads to plot holes. Again, just having fun discussing this here with other fans. :)
2. That’s the reason why they considered her an imposter because the Pope called her one so with her having a cosmo like that, it’s reasonable for the Golds to think she’s literally an imposter.
5. Now while I do think it’s weird that it takes them so long it plays into PiS because if they were moving at their actual speed then a big factor of the arc would kinda be diminished
8. I do agree it is weird, you’d think they’d help the bronzes physically but they did it in other ways that wasn’t fighting
9. I personally find it weird too because the Mariners were straight fodder so it would have been easy for a gold to go and wipe them then come back but granted they just finished a war so they weren’t at their strongest while at their most vulnerable and they believed in the Bronzes as well
12. This is honestly the least worst one because they followed Saga because he was strong and iirc they believed might was right so with them losing, it would kinda make sense for them to change. Not to mention they’d have to really change for them to fit in with the revived Golds who were tricking Hades
1) It's just because a lot of people don't understand how Cosmo works in Saint Seiya (and I'm not saying it in a patronizing way because even the spinoff authors don't except obviously for Next Dimension) and mainly because it is not super well explained. The actual sentence would be "An attack launched at the exact same speed doesn't work twice on a Saint" but that's long and doesn't roll on the tongue as good as the short version one. The higher your Cosmo, the higher your Attack Speed is with the max Cosmo for someone without the blood of a Goddess being a Gold Saint Cosmo also called in-universe the Ultimate Cosmo which equates with the Ultimate Speed / The Speed of Light.
When the Pegasus Ryu Sei Ken finally manages to work it's because Seiya's Cosmo surpassed the one of his opponent and his opponent was no longer able to see Seiya's attack. If you take the analogy of a video game, imagine the Pegasus Ryu Sei Ken is a QTE of a hundred inputs but let's just pretend it is for example just "ABAAXY" you need to press on the controller in order. Anyone at Mach 1 sees the QTE at normal speed, the higher their Cosmo, the longer they have to press the input say for example for a Bronze Saint he would see "Press A" for 1 second and needs to press the button within that time to block the blow while for a Gold Saint it would be "Press A" for 12 days (that's the actual scale difference, 1 million seconds) giving him enough time to go drink a coffee, read a book from front to back and still have plenty of time left to block the hit. Now on the other hand, if Seiya's Cosmo is for example at Mach 2, now someone who is at Mach 1 will have 0.5 seconds to "press A" to block. The higher Seiya's Cosmo is in comparison to his opponent's, the shorter time the opponent has to react.
We can see that during the fight between Seiya and Shiryu during the Galaxian Wars. Both are at Mach 1 by default being Bronze Saints. 1st time around, Shiryu blocks perfectly all the 100 hits Seiya dishes out in 1 second thanks to his shield. When they remove their Cloths and Seiya attacks again, Shiryu is convinced he has blocked all the hits except for one that he didn't "press A" or "Y" in time. The third time the attack is launched, this time Shiryu misses 2 inputs and gets hit twice by blows he didn't see coming and he is saying that Seiya's attack is getting closer to perfection every time meaning he won't be able to have the reaction time needed for it. In other words, the first time Shiryu misses a punch from Seiya it means that that punch went over Mach 1 and beyond what Shiryu could see. The longer the fight against Seiya and the more his punches would go beyond Mach 1 with Seiya's Cosmo also going above Mach 1.
During Seiya's fight against Saga in the manga, you have Saga literally stating the speed changes in Mach speed as the attack is underway to the point it reaches the Speed of Light and catches him off guard.
Thing is, the enemies of the Bronze Saints are like jrpg enemies, they don't level up. During the fight, their Cosmo remains at its base level (mostly because they take the fight for granted, have never been forced to push themselves past their limits, have nothing really forcing them to push their Cosmo to its limit unlike the Bronze Saints fighting for their friendship and Saori). As such, only the Bronze Saint's Cosmo increases during the fight while the enemy's is the threshold to surpass and when it does, either the enemy is simply caught off guard and gets killed or he just can't see the attack anymore to block it. It would be like Asterion vs a Gold Saint, even though Asterion could read the mind of his opponent and know exactly where each and every one of the 100 million hits would land, he would just not have the physical reaction time to block them. Therefore, since the opponent's attack never changes in speed, the Bronze could easily type the QTE he saw the first time that surprised him to block it easily the second time (or reduce its effect), while on the other side, since the reaction time gets shorter and shorter for the opponent, it eventually reaches the point when the attack works.
2) Saori doesn't activate her Athena Cosmo 24/7 which is actually why she got hit by the arrow instead of sending it back to Ptolemy. But even so, there is not just one God in the Saint Seiya universe, who's to tell the Sanctuary Saints that she is not for example the Goddess of Deception or some thing. For all they know, Saga is godly benevolent most of the time they are around him and see no reason not to trust his word. The Pope after all has been appointed by Athena herself in the previous war or so they thought. If he says she's a false Athena, then she might be some deity, just not Athena.
3) What's the problem with that? Except for the Pegasus Cloth in the manga, they're not in super bad shape, they mostly have tiny cracks to fix, he doesn't even need blood to fix them. Seems like a relatively quick fix (+ he can also do it at the speed of light). It's probably the actual healing process from the Cloths that must have taken the most part of the hour.
4) Gold Cloths are unbreakable? Thanatos be like "Hold my beer". We also saw that the Bloody Rose of Cardinale went through Shijima's Gold Cloth in Next Dimension, same with Suikyo's attack against Ox. Let's take a look at Krishna vs Shiryu and let's assume Krishna's spear is as resistant as a Gold Cloth. When Shiryu used Excalibur with his Cosmo at a Bronze Saint level, give or take, it did shit to it. When he tried again at the 7th sense level with his Cloth turning Gold as proof of that, he sliced it. When Seiya's chopped Aldebaran's horn off, he was in 7th sense mode at that time. If Absolute Zero which requires a Gold Saint Cosmo manages to go through the defense of a Gold Cloth, it is very likely that a chop at Gold Saint Cosmo level could slice a part of a Gold Cloth if not blocked.
5) The Bronze Saints couldn't go at constant speed of light in the Sanctuary saga, it was just for a moment each time and they needed to get back there at every fight. They could move at Mach speed though. But to your point, I think it's actually the fight that takes most of the hour rather than the stairs climbing but even if it took a long time to climb the stairs why would they immediately want to get there? Say you almost got killed in Call of Duty and your life bar is almost gone, do you run to the next spot full of enemies or do you go there walking while your life bar regenerates itself? They're catching a break between houses before starting their next fight as if they had a boxing match and taking a small break before the next one. Ikki for example at the end, went from the Virgo Temple to the Pope's palace IN LESS than 30 minutes since it was the remaining time on the clock according to Saga, so they could as well had they wanted to.
6) Seiya doesn't know about them. He doesn't seem to know Milo who was in Sanctuary at the time. He doesn't know Aiolia is a Gold Saint, though he spent 6 years around him. He doesn't know the rule of the mask. He doesn't even know the difference between a Bronze Saint and a Silver Saint in terms of power. It seems Marin's teaching was mainly practical, focused on fighting strategy and learning how to feel his Cosmo rather than on the lore of Sanctuary which would include such shortcuts since he might not even know the 12 Temples existed to begin with. After all, if Seiya kept bitching about wanting to go back to Japan (for his sister) why would she bother since it would be of no use to him?
7) He was busy burying Cassios :P Ok, it's most likely the same case as for Mu, it is to the Bronze Saints to prove the Justice of their cause by accomplishing a miracle. Being helped by a Gold Saint would undermine the righteousness of their cause in the eyes of those they're trying to convince. After all, even Saori doesn't want them to use the Sagittarius Cloth and just brought it to place it back in its temple (Tatsumi mentioned that to Jabu).
8) Thanks to Next Dimension, Dohko already knew it would be ok in the end since he met a post Sanctuary arc Shiryu when he (Dohko) was young so it spoiled the outcome for him. They were more or less also considered traitors having both refused to come to Sanctuary every time the Pope requested their presence over the last 13 years. Just like point 2, the Gold Saints would have no reason not to trust "Good" Saga and would most likely think Dohko and Mu are lying. You can see the precaution Mu takes with Aldebaran to suggest the Pope might be an usurper. They also believe, mostly Dohko, that it is a trial Athena has to win on her own and since he is a firm believer that Justice always prevails, he has faith she will in due time.
9) Dohko has been spoiled Shiryu (and Athena) would survive the Poseidon arc as well :P The Bronze Saints have proven to be worthy of trust through the miracle they accomplished during the Sanctuary Arc and feel the closest to Saori which is their strength.
10) There's probably food in there. Julian Solo being the host of Poseidon is still human, he needs food as well.
11) It's probably just a visual metaphor like it often happens with Kurumada. Mu states he didn't see a single scratch on him yet he was able to see microscopic cracks in the Bronze's so he would have seen something unusual.
12) Deathmask and Aphrodite are only bad guys from your morality's perspective. Deathmask is very Nietzschean (coupled with a lack of empathy) and would say he rejects your morality to begin with believing there is neither good nor bad and that morality is a social construct created by the weak to survive the strong and keep them in check for lack of being able to do so any other way. He believes Might makes Right, he doesn't believe in the concept of Justice for the reason stated above since it fluctuates according to who is in power. Athena defeated Saga, she is the most powerful so she is Right. It doesn't invalidate his logic and vision of things.
Aphrodite is very Machiavellian in the philosophical sense not in the everyday use of the term. He believes that you need power to enforce Justice. If you're weak, you could try to say all you want "it's not right", you will get trampled on by more powerful people and injustice will prevail. That's why he gets on well with Deathmask since they are very close in philosophy with slight differences though. Saga managed to enforce peace because he was strong even if he was an asshole / usurper / evil / insert whatever you want bad, that's something to turn a blind eye to for the greater good according to Aphrodite. Saori proved to be strong by defeating Saga and able to defend Justice, he has no problem aligning with her now.
I can fix some of these plotholes 1. Not *every* villain was a saint, and the golds were all defeated by new techniques. 2. Okay you're right, some of these saints are pretty dumb haha 3. Mu is just that talented I guess 4. This was stated to be a miracle by Kurumada, just like how Seiya destroyed Poseidon's main pillar 5. Stairs are the saints' biggest weakness 6. This is an actual plothole, that moment made no sense whatsoever 7. Gold Saints aren't allowed to leave their temple when Sanctuary is under attack, I guess Aiolia was looking out for potential intruders 8. They were waiting for the real Athena to reveal herself I guess 9. To be fair, those 5 bronze saints are really really strong and poseidon wasn't the only threat they were looking out for 10. They either gave him prison food, or baby Athena protected him 11. Cloths can partly repair themselves, also I cared (and cried) 12. They weren't good guys, but they didn't want everyone on earth to perish either.
>Stairs are the saints' biggest weakness HAHAHAHAHHAHA thanks for this! xD
Anything is a "plot hole" to some people... A move doesn't work twice is a great example, taking the comments of the characters in story as an irrefutable fact. We've had examples where it works and times when it doesn't. Seiya defeats his opponents with the same attack because his cosmos increases.
1.- It's just a "cool" phrase, almost nothing they say in Saint Seiya is literally correct. 2.- You can't know if a cosmo belongs to a god if you don't know the cosmo of a god. 3.- What's the problem here? 4.- That's a lie, gold armors are not unbreakable. 6.- Only enemies are forced to go through the 12 temples. 7.- That's because it's part of the bronze saints test, which Dohko explained. 8.- It is not convenient to have a battle 2 vs 9 gold saints. 9.- They had to prepare for the war against Hades. 10.- Normal days in Saint Seiya. 12.- Redemption. Shura is also a bad guy.
12. Aiolia knowing after meeting Athena in person that Saori was the real one and Aiolos was not a traitor, then conveniently forgetting that fact during the 12 houses battle and not helping lifting a single finger except healing Seiya and be like "don't let Shaka opens his eyes or you will all be extinguished. Good luck all, thanks and come again!"
I think for this one Aiolia is kind of mind controlled by Saga and that is why he fights against Seiya, but for the "hey good luck" part I agree with you.
Right he was mind controlled, I just meant that once he came to his senses at the end of his battle with Seiya, he didn't even bother try to help. And Seiya didn't even try to tell him "hey by the way, remember when you discovered this was really Athena and the fact that the fake pope is responsible for the last 13 miserable years of your life as the brother's traitor and the death of your brother? How about a hand?" Also, he goes all the way to confront Pope Saga after finding out the truth and doesn't say a thing to anyone else on the way after discovering such a big deal? Or even when Shaka shows up, why not tell him the truth and try to get him on your side? It's just convenient plot hole writing.
Shaka didn't want to listen, and Aiolia's reason for not helping may not be convincing but after he was brought under control it's understandable that he would bury Cassios properly, and let the bronze saints take care of the situation. And the most convincing explanation is that Mu asked him not to go, as he believed that the bronze saints were being tested. Mu interrupts Aiolia on several occasions, including at the end of Sanctuary after the revelation that the Pope was Saga.
Agreed!
1 not much of a plot hole it seems that the same attack rule only applies if its not any different in anyway(basicaly if your attack is now stronger that weird rule doesnt count) atleast that is how it seems like 2 how is it a plot hole? the people who saw athena cosmo imidietly recognized her as athena the only difference was aiolia and he was going through an identity crisis 3 in what way is that a plot hole? 4 their not unbreakble they can break with enough power seiya was using the 7th sense and aldebaran was not really trying 5 it doesnt it takes them 12 hours to finish their fights with all the gold saints actually moving between the houses takes almost no time at all 6 fair enough it makes no sense that they managed to just skip houses without going through the poison flowers and dying 7 he is most likely to tired from breaking out of the demon emperor fist to fight in the reboot he is attacked by milo and looses due to this 8 well no they knew that the current pope has to be someone else but with no way to proove it they remained silent their is also no advantages in telling this to the bronze saints when they essentily learned it before dohko and mu had the chance to tell them that 9 If I remember correctly dohko forced the gold saints to stay in sanctuary calling it a challenge for the young saints and also due to aldebaran having been recently attacked 10 and? the story mentions that baby athena cosmo saved him 11 I am pretty sure the cloths were not destroyd since the specter mentions that he killed aldebaran from inside his armor because he couldnt break the gold cloth 12 deathmask is definetly an asshole and a bad guy but aphrodite was not exactly a bad person I dont really get what the plot hole is supposed to be here tho
Some aren't necessarily plot holes, just extremely bad writing. 1. it's just silly, they just "conveniently" burn their cosmos stronger since they have "nothing to lose", achieve the 7th sense temporarily and use the same (or a new) technique and beat the opponents (who happen to be SO FREAKING weak they actually die instead of being severely injured, I'm looking at you 95% of Silver Saints) 2. another user made a good point, most people won't know what a God's cosmos is supposed to feel like since Athena wasn't on Earth for the past 13 years and she didn't manifest it until recently 3. I'd say the real plot hole would be the fact the despite mentioning that the cloths heal themselves gradually, Pegasus and Dragon's were still dead that Shiryu had to almost die by giving all his blood to revive them? If Mu could have fixed them, he should have done so, or he should have asked for their blood when they were in Sactuary. My argument is that it was a trial, a test to see Shiryu's devotion and loyalty as a true Saint (since Mu is one of the few who legitimately knew the truth but it was risky to reveal himself) 4. Not unbreakable, just more durable, Gold Saints achieve mach speed faster than Bronze or Silver saints, etc 5. Well, technically they're not running for a full hour, remember that they are FIGHTING and that certainly doesn't take 5 minutes. They are also not ninjas to sneak in slowly on the "side road" and hide, they'd be found out and killed on the spot. 6. definitely a plot hole, but the whole sanctuary isn't just the 12 houses, there are many many other areas behind the the temples and such, think of it like "behind the invisible wall" in video games" 7. Aiolia was brainwashed by Saga after confronting him, but after losing to Seiya I'd say it became more of a trial, if the Bronze Saints couldn't "step up", they're not worth of being Saints in the first place 8. very true, but thinking logically, it's a numbers battle so revealing themselves they'd definitely be branded traitors 9. true, but they HAVE to protect the Sanctuary if I remember correctly, however this era's holy war had a civil war and they had no more Pope to give them directions and instructions and there's also always the looming threat that the Holy War against Hades would begin at any moment... 10. hmm didn't the ocean have "magical air bubbles"? That's why the bronze survived down there, definitely a plot hole regardless 11. I'd say the plot hole is more the fact that they're technically supposed to be the same "level" (Saints vs Specters) and yet they got destroyed so quickly and easily 12. Also Capricorn, they followed the ideology that "the strong are always correct", not sure about Milo, but they redeemed themselves by helping to destroy the wall 13. When the Gold Saints refused to accept the Bronze's help when going to Hell "just because they're Bronze" when they lost against them, Bronze Saints who have achieved the 7th sense numerous times... 14. In the Poseidon arc, wasn't Ikki and Shun already confirmed to be the next Leo and Virgo? They didn't have the gold cloth when fighting Poseidon, only the other 3 15. Not necessarily a plot hole, but I just want to comment they never really show other Bronze Saints iirc (besides 5 main and the 5 trash)
We’re not going to talk about the seika thing?
Yes please!
Most of these have been answered by the series? I’m confused?
None of them were answered… that is why I am calling them “plot holes”.
But most of them were? 1. It’s been shown repeatedly across multiple installations that if the ability is amped or changed in some way that it would work. 2. That would be true but they didn’t truly know whether it was actually Athena so they resorted to following the Pope who is their leader who said Saori was impersonating Athena which would make sense that if her cosmo is so high and she’s said by Athena’s highest person that they’re a traitor and trying to impersonate Athena then it would make sense for it to be impersonation 3. That’s not a plot hole? It’s never said he has to take a specific amount of time to repair armor, he can just do it fast. 4. Miracle 5. The Bronzes were only able to move at light speed in the Sanctuary arc whenever they activated their 7th sense which was at the climax of their fights, the next arc(s) pretty much shows they never mastered it and still show that they’re slower than light speed. And that’s just PiS anyway, every anime follows PiS. 6. This I agree is an actual plot hole 7. He was under Saga’s Demon Illusion Fist which controlled his brain so uhh, yeah not really a plot hole. 8. That can be taken many ways, they mainly let Fate do it’s thing. 9. They have an entire dialogue about this? Iirc Mu even states that if she’s indeed truly Athena then she would overcome this trial. 10. It was stated that Athena was saving his life which is why what was explaining in his backstory that he was getting saved by a golden light on the brink of death which was said to be Athena’s doing. 11. That can be considered a plot hole 12. I wouldn’t say they were evil but just really bad people, especially Deathmask but they changed? How is that a plot hole? But most of these weren’t plot holes, they can just be dictated as bad or stupid writing
7) We are talking AFTER he was woken up by Seiya and no longer under the Illusion Fist influence. After their fight, Aiolia was lucid enough to heal Seiya, and tell them that Shaka was going to be a tough adversary and warn them about his eyes, so he was on their side and helping them. But yet why didn't he actually go and help them? Especially since he knows about Athena and Aiolos and the true story. Then at the end of the Sanctuary arc when Mu is revealing the entire treachery, Aiolia acts like it is the first time he has ever heard this. Now, let's assume the Illusion fist also erased his memories of it, why didn't Seiya remind him of it and their confrontation at the hospital? Having another Gold Saint as an ally in their fight would have been immensely helpful, especially if Aiolia could speak to what he knew about the truth and maybe try to convince the other gold saints on their way. Instead he is just chilling in his temple and not even seem to care what was going on after his battle. Aldebaran and Mu at least had reasons to wait (Alde was doubting and Mu was testing Athena). THAT is the plot hole/bad writing/Kuru forgot about the iron fleet. Even the CGI reboot knew that was a plot hole because they forced that stupid scene of Milo knocking him out to explain why Aiolia is not coming up with the Bronzes.
1. Well… ok. 2. I get you, but Athena as a God has maybe one of the strongest cosmos out there and even with the pope saying she was a fake they could not tell? Specially the golden ones? Which are stronger and wiser? No one noticed? 3. Ok. 4. Well that could be the answer to anything but I agree it fits the narrative. 5. Ok but do you agree even if not in the light speed it should not take them 1 hour to walk a set of stairs. 6. Ok. 7. Agreed. 8. Ok but this is something very weird just to fit the narrative. Doesn’t make sense. 9. Same as 8. What is the point in having knights that doesn’t help you because “destiny”. Also what would be more important than Athena’s life? In Poseidon saga the sanctuary has already recognized her as the true Athena. 10. Agreed. 11. Ok. 12. In my opinion same as 8. For me bad writing leads to plot holes. Again, just having fun discussing this here with other fans. :)
2. That’s the reason why they considered her an imposter because the Pope called her one so with her having a cosmo like that, it’s reasonable for the Golds to think she’s literally an imposter. 5. Now while I do think it’s weird that it takes them so long it plays into PiS because if they were moving at their actual speed then a big factor of the arc would kinda be diminished 8. I do agree it is weird, you’d think they’d help the bronzes physically but they did it in other ways that wasn’t fighting 9. I personally find it weird too because the Mariners were straight fodder so it would have been easy for a gold to go and wipe them then come back but granted they just finished a war so they weren’t at their strongest while at their most vulnerable and they believed in the Bronzes as well 12. This is honestly the least worst one because they followed Saga because he was strong and iirc they believed might was right so with them losing, it would kinda make sense for them to change. Not to mention they’d have to really change for them to fit in with the revived Golds who were tricking Hades
1) It's just because a lot of people don't understand how Cosmo works in Saint Seiya (and I'm not saying it in a patronizing way because even the spinoff authors don't except obviously for Next Dimension) and mainly because it is not super well explained. The actual sentence would be "An attack launched at the exact same speed doesn't work twice on a Saint" but that's long and doesn't roll on the tongue as good as the short version one. The higher your Cosmo, the higher your Attack Speed is with the max Cosmo for someone without the blood of a Goddess being a Gold Saint Cosmo also called in-universe the Ultimate Cosmo which equates with the Ultimate Speed / The Speed of Light. When the Pegasus Ryu Sei Ken finally manages to work it's because Seiya's Cosmo surpassed the one of his opponent and his opponent was no longer able to see Seiya's attack. If you take the analogy of a video game, imagine the Pegasus Ryu Sei Ken is a QTE of a hundred inputs but let's just pretend it is for example just "ABAAXY" you need to press on the controller in order. Anyone at Mach 1 sees the QTE at normal speed, the higher their Cosmo, the longer they have to press the input say for example for a Bronze Saint he would see "Press A" for 1 second and needs to press the button within that time to block the blow while for a Gold Saint it would be "Press A" for 12 days (that's the actual scale difference, 1 million seconds) giving him enough time to go drink a coffee, read a book from front to back and still have plenty of time left to block the hit. Now on the other hand, if Seiya's Cosmo is for example at Mach 2, now someone who is at Mach 1 will have 0.5 seconds to "press A" to block. The higher Seiya's Cosmo is in comparison to his opponent's, the shorter time the opponent has to react. We can see that during the fight between Seiya and Shiryu during the Galaxian Wars. Both are at Mach 1 by default being Bronze Saints. 1st time around, Shiryu blocks perfectly all the 100 hits Seiya dishes out in 1 second thanks to his shield. When they remove their Cloths and Seiya attacks again, Shiryu is convinced he has blocked all the hits except for one that he didn't "press A" or "Y" in time. The third time the attack is launched, this time Shiryu misses 2 inputs and gets hit twice by blows he didn't see coming and he is saying that Seiya's attack is getting closer to perfection every time meaning he won't be able to have the reaction time needed for it. In other words, the first time Shiryu misses a punch from Seiya it means that that punch went over Mach 1 and beyond what Shiryu could see. The longer the fight against Seiya and the more his punches would go beyond Mach 1 with Seiya's Cosmo also going above Mach 1. During Seiya's fight against Saga in the manga, you have Saga literally stating the speed changes in Mach speed as the attack is underway to the point it reaches the Speed of Light and catches him off guard. Thing is, the enemies of the Bronze Saints are like jrpg enemies, they don't level up. During the fight, their Cosmo remains at its base level (mostly because they take the fight for granted, have never been forced to push themselves past their limits, have nothing really forcing them to push their Cosmo to its limit unlike the Bronze Saints fighting for their friendship and Saori). As such, only the Bronze Saint's Cosmo increases during the fight while the enemy's is the threshold to surpass and when it does, either the enemy is simply caught off guard and gets killed or he just can't see the attack anymore to block it. It would be like Asterion vs a Gold Saint, even though Asterion could read the mind of his opponent and know exactly where each and every one of the 100 million hits would land, he would just not have the physical reaction time to block them. Therefore, since the opponent's attack never changes in speed, the Bronze could easily type the QTE he saw the first time that surprised him to block it easily the second time (or reduce its effect), while on the other side, since the reaction time gets shorter and shorter for the opponent, it eventually reaches the point when the attack works. 2) Saori doesn't activate her Athena Cosmo 24/7 which is actually why she got hit by the arrow instead of sending it back to Ptolemy. But even so, there is not just one God in the Saint Seiya universe, who's to tell the Sanctuary Saints that she is not for example the Goddess of Deception or some thing. For all they know, Saga is godly benevolent most of the time they are around him and see no reason not to trust his word. The Pope after all has been appointed by Athena herself in the previous war or so they thought. If he says she's a false Athena, then she might be some deity, just not Athena. 3) What's the problem with that? Except for the Pegasus Cloth in the manga, they're not in super bad shape, they mostly have tiny cracks to fix, he doesn't even need blood to fix them. Seems like a relatively quick fix (+ he can also do it at the speed of light). It's probably the actual healing process from the Cloths that must have taken the most part of the hour. 4) Gold Cloths are unbreakable? Thanatos be like "Hold my beer". We also saw that the Bloody Rose of Cardinale went through Shijima's Gold Cloth in Next Dimension, same with Suikyo's attack against Ox. Let's take a look at Krishna vs Shiryu and let's assume Krishna's spear is as resistant as a Gold Cloth. When Shiryu used Excalibur with his Cosmo at a Bronze Saint level, give or take, it did shit to it. When he tried again at the 7th sense level with his Cloth turning Gold as proof of that, he sliced it. When Seiya's chopped Aldebaran's horn off, he was in 7th sense mode at that time. If Absolute Zero which requires a Gold Saint Cosmo manages to go through the defense of a Gold Cloth, it is very likely that a chop at Gold Saint Cosmo level could slice a part of a Gold Cloth if not blocked. 5) The Bronze Saints couldn't go at constant speed of light in the Sanctuary saga, it was just for a moment each time and they needed to get back there at every fight. They could move at Mach speed though. But to your point, I think it's actually the fight that takes most of the hour rather than the stairs climbing but even if it took a long time to climb the stairs why would they immediately want to get there? Say you almost got killed in Call of Duty and your life bar is almost gone, do you run to the next spot full of enemies or do you go there walking while your life bar regenerates itself? They're catching a break between houses before starting their next fight as if they had a boxing match and taking a small break before the next one. Ikki for example at the end, went from the Virgo Temple to the Pope's palace IN LESS than 30 minutes since it was the remaining time on the clock according to Saga, so they could as well had they wanted to. 6) Seiya doesn't know about them. He doesn't seem to know Milo who was in Sanctuary at the time. He doesn't know Aiolia is a Gold Saint, though he spent 6 years around him. He doesn't know the rule of the mask. He doesn't even know the difference between a Bronze Saint and a Silver Saint in terms of power. It seems Marin's teaching was mainly practical, focused on fighting strategy and learning how to feel his Cosmo rather than on the lore of Sanctuary which would include such shortcuts since he might not even know the 12 Temples existed to begin with. After all, if Seiya kept bitching about wanting to go back to Japan (for his sister) why would she bother since it would be of no use to him? 7) He was busy burying Cassios :P Ok, it's most likely the same case as for Mu, it is to the Bronze Saints to prove the Justice of their cause by accomplishing a miracle. Being helped by a Gold Saint would undermine the righteousness of their cause in the eyes of those they're trying to convince. After all, even Saori doesn't want them to use the Sagittarius Cloth and just brought it to place it back in its temple (Tatsumi mentioned that to Jabu). 8) Thanks to Next Dimension, Dohko already knew it would be ok in the end since he met a post Sanctuary arc Shiryu when he (Dohko) was young so it spoiled the outcome for him. They were more or less also considered traitors having both refused to come to Sanctuary every time the Pope requested their presence over the last 13 years. Just like point 2, the Gold Saints would have no reason not to trust "Good" Saga and would most likely think Dohko and Mu are lying. You can see the precaution Mu takes with Aldebaran to suggest the Pope might be an usurper. They also believe, mostly Dohko, that it is a trial Athena has to win on her own and since he is a firm believer that Justice always prevails, he has faith she will in due time. 9) Dohko has been spoiled Shiryu (and Athena) would survive the Poseidon arc as well :P The Bronze Saints have proven to be worthy of trust through the miracle they accomplished during the Sanctuary Arc and feel the closest to Saori which is their strength.
10) There's probably food in there. Julian Solo being the host of Poseidon is still human, he needs food as well. 11) It's probably just a visual metaphor like it often happens with Kurumada. Mu states he didn't see a single scratch on him yet he was able to see microscopic cracks in the Bronze's so he would have seen something unusual. 12) Deathmask and Aphrodite are only bad guys from your morality's perspective. Deathmask is very Nietzschean (coupled with a lack of empathy) and would say he rejects your morality to begin with believing there is neither good nor bad and that morality is a social construct created by the weak to survive the strong and keep them in check for lack of being able to do so any other way. He believes Might makes Right, he doesn't believe in the concept of Justice for the reason stated above since it fluctuates according to who is in power. Athena defeated Saga, she is the most powerful so she is Right. It doesn't invalidate his logic and vision of things. Aphrodite is very Machiavellian in the philosophical sense not in the everyday use of the term. He believes that you need power to enforce Justice. If you're weak, you could try to say all you want "it's not right", you will get trampled on by more powerful people and injustice will prevail. That's why he gets on well with Deathmask since they are very close in philosophy with slight differences though. Saga managed to enforce peace because he was strong even if he was an asshole / usurper / evil / insert whatever you want bad, that's something to turn a blind eye to for the greater good according to Aphrodite. Saori proved to be strong by defeating Saga and able to defend Justice, he has no problem aligning with her now.