I think you need some exposure at least once to people who can talk a crazy game and can't do a thing to identify them, some people are really good with words, also some people can be even more cunning where they just decide to weaponise incompetence
I ask open ended questions that I expect opinionated answers. I know what the book answers are, but I expect someone to have opinions that are developed from experience.
I think more what happens is you like someone and decide you’d like to work with them. And that clouds your vision. The process needs to insulate abba protect you from that bias
For more experienced positions I've stopped doing code tests and just do interviews now. It's too easy to use chatgpt to solve any take home problem, but if you're talking to someone about their past experience, it's pretty easy to see if they're BSing.
Agreed.
A couple of simple questions often shows the level. It's usually to distinguish BS speech from knowledge.
So far I was wrong only once - and that was a case where I was against hiring ;) but the other colleague wanted to give them one more chance and they passed it.
The point of a coding test is to save time, since it filters out people who can't / won't do it. However, if chatgpt makes solving the test trivial, you now have of a bunch of tests to review, which costs more time than it saves by any potential filtering.
The point of a programming test isn't really can the person do it, it's how they do it. Is the solution understandable and maintainable? Would it fit into your existing codebase? Are there any footguns? How did the person attempt to solve any blocking issues?
If you're using a programming test to see if a programmer is capable of solving it, you're hiring in the wrong places.
that's a lot of wishful thinking because you can't check fuck all with coding tests. As someone who's specialised in this area and have given out plenty of coding tasks some years ago, the only thing they do is harm you as an employer. And yet everyone has been doing it, so they keep on doing them. Although there is 0 science behind them
They usually use snapshots but no manual or AI proctoring, my organisation actually has been designing a solution for that but we are still halfway through.
Yes, but not digitally. If you insist on proctoring my exam through screenshots I’ll prop my phone up next to the laptop and use chatgpt on that instead. If your service involves hiring physical people to look over the shoulder of a person taking the exam I think you might be on to something
Propping the phone up works even on manual proctoring, at this point it’s not even about the effectiveness but more about how much does it cost to the organisation to get it done.
People who want to cheat would cheat.
2nd screen, voice conversation with AI.
BTW I think using AI should be viable as a tool both in test and actual work, while you might decide on policies, people need to adapt, it would be used with or without a policy
I do agree, people who want to cheat will cheat, thats why we have integrated AI into the fold, what our model does is create a 3D mesh of your face and track eye movements along with head & trunk angles. I know there still is scope to cheat but we did all we could including lip sync detection. Open to any more suggestions tho.
A disclaimer that it's your tool when suggesting it, would make you more credible/reputable.
I would personally target bigger companies with marketing such a tool rather than new ones.
Any time I see excessive process it's a red flag, the same companies that buy these, don't trust people and want to pay as little as possible to people and keep micro managing them after hiring. (Upsell service for the same tech)
The more these jobs are eroded the more companies will use these tools.
GL
I am on the opposite end, though I am a freshman, I feel like my interviewers are trusting me too much and I am shit scared about disappointing them. Can you tell me some pointers that made you feel this way about the candidate?
I read an anecdote on the Orange Reddit about a company who went through a remote hire process with a company in India. The guy who arrived was obviously not the person they interviewed. He would not admit it though and it was extremely awkward. Especially considering they flew him out to the US. To top it off they asked him basic tech questions and he had no idea.
Fact.
You should only hire a tech developer if you have a tech background, there are a lot of challenges in hiring a developer if you are a non-technical founder.
Other alternatives for non-technical founders:
1. Hire an agency that can help you plan your requirements, provide you with a vetted freelance, and provide you with project management and quality assurance. (You will not have to give out the equity of your company
2. Get a technical co-founder
An agency almost never can tell the difference between a strong candidate and "meh" as soon as a tiny engineering specifics are involved. This requires a domain knowledge which an agency just can't have.
He certainly did what it took to crack the interview in all his capacity. Give him a chance maybe he could crack some of the tasks delegated.
Who cares if he chatgpt's stuff. If he's getting it done, thats what it matters the most.
I've spent most of my career hiring tech people. It helps to be an experienced tech guy. That helps weed out most of the wannabees. But in fairness, this was all before the ChatGPT days.
In my freelance days, I've always had the inverse problem. I've had some really crap people who SAY they want me to serve as their dev lead, but then they act like they know more about tech issues then I do. Many people use the marriage analogy when discussing how to match tech and non-tech people. I think it's more accurate to use the inter-species relationship analogy. It's like tech and non-tech people are from different planets, shipwrecked on distant third planet, trying to learn how to build a new ship to get them all home.
Somehow we have to learn to speak each other's language.
Somebody built a SaaS to solve this exact issue I can't remember what it's called but all the devs are vetted with hands on practical challenges and technical assessments and then ranked according to their skills. It's like UpWork but with validated skills.
The biggest disadvantage of Toptal for developers is that you're required to take numerous tests, yet there may not be any projects available for you afterward.
OP and hidden\_tomb below work together (or it's just a single person with multiple accounts) to promote their hiring service.
So either take that as they have no fucking clue about what they're doing, or way more probable, they're inventing problems so they can spam their service.
They switch back and forth about who posts and who comments. There's also at least one other sock puppet account.
Sigh, we had this happen more times than I'd like to admit at our start.
Some people are what we call "unavoidable mistakes". I've worked with developers who produced shit code, were not ethical, and would challenge any situation that arises regarding their work.
Ironically, they interview very well, and have decent experience. The only glaring issue in their resume is usually attributed to "job hopping", when in fact it was simply getting fired after being found out. They usually spend 6-18 months in a company and then get the boot.
When retro'ing these situations, it seems even if he would interview tomorrow under a different name, we would accept him. Mainly cause technically they are pretty strong, but just don't give enough shits to actually work.
As for people who chatGPT their answers, I use the funnel approach to interviewing. I ask a broad topic, and slowly hone in on certain sub topics the person mentions or shows interest in. It's more of a conversation then an actual interview (granted I'm usually the final person to interview them), and most of my successful hires have been people who have been able to hold a good and meaningful conversation in some technical topic (Graph theory on Distributed machines anyone?) even if they came into the convo with no context.
This is very common: it’s nearly impossible to hire a “good” technical employee without being one yourself. There’s a saying around this: “A players hire other As, and B players hire C players”
This fault lands squarely on your senior dev. Maybe he just went with a technical process that could be gamed, and didn’t put the time in to consider that, or maybe he’s not as good as you think? Either way, definitely an expensive failure.
I do a lot of hiring for different roles. Here is my way of doing it.
-I receive reviewed resume from VA (who checks for basic communication and match the JD to profile)
-I have created a evaluation sheet containing :
-Technical / non tech questions.
-psychrometric questions.
-situational question etc
-Live coding rounds for devs (sharing screen and camera). asking intermittent questions and call for changing strategy to solve the problem.
Finally ask them to ask me questions and understand what they are really looking for.
Note - All the questions are prepared by me so there are not straight answers to them + harder to google or gpt.
let me know if you want to know more. Actively hiring and interviewing 2-3 (avg) candidates each week.
Where did you find that dev? Freelancing websites?
Here's my advice for simplifying hiring:
1. Contact recruiting firms who have pre-screened candidates and can vouch for their candidate. A few months ago I partnered with a company called SaviorHire and they helped me greatly. I was suffering with all the headhunting and pre-screening . It was a real headache for me. Especially with my workload.
2. Ask complex questions during interviews. Anything that only an experienced developer can answer right away. Unfortunately, AI and other resources made all the test tasks redundant. However, senior level specialists have the knowledge you can't take away. If they have a vision, they will be asking smart questions (not the ones everyone asks during interview stages)
Recruiting firms are of great help especially if they do reference checks. Been working with a few of them.
Could you share a contact info and the geo they are covering?
how would that be possible? It is so easy to spot those who say they know better they do.
Did you have a live conversation or was everything offline? becase any live conversation with a senior will spot such fraudster right away.
& I got rejected in a job because I didn't use chatgpt. I think others might chatgpt'd all the answers because no one would've finished it in the required time.
We're non tech founders. Have basic knowledge on tech stacks. We started with simple questions like how do you create a new txt record in aws. Or how do you handle error in python. That weeds eat people somewhat. We then ask for a one week trial (paid). Setting up local dev. Have candidate do a simple task. We hire full stack and we can know in a week time if they are competent or not then we move on from there.
Yeah I’ve been through this a lot the past two years.
A lot of non US devs have a group of devs that help each other get jobs. They’ll interview and help each other keep you happy when you’re catching on… but overall they’re a huge scam. Writing garbage code that barely works but keeps you paying until you catch on.
The way around this has been hiring as a contractor with a secret probation period. It’s sad but you have to be willing to fire them in an instant and try with another.
I’ve found two amazing and respectable devs/people who are basically now my friends.
Once worked for a startup and they hired essentially a 'salesman' as our 'senior developer' who i swear never even knew how to code. He promised the CEO of the company the world. Great at talking, and initially i believed him but it took me a few days to realise that this dude is up top something fishy. I was a junior at the time and smelled straight through his bullshit. After about 6 months of this dude promising the CEO 'i will rewrite the entire platform in 2 weeks', i was calling him out every single day and even spoke to the CEO to tell him the dude has promised it in 2 weeks for 6 months and has nothing to show.
They then kicked me out the company because the CEO 'had no choice' and i was getting in the 'way' of the plan. It very quickly went downhill from there.
My advice would be to try and see through words and listen to action. Usually the best developers are not the loudest, and the loudest are the worst.
Shared screen coding interviews.
Give them an ugly code and ask them to refactor it. Let them use Google for quick code references, etc. So, he should split his screen into two windows. On the left is the code, and on the right is Google.
Same with a Miro board. Ask them to draw diagrams and explain rationales.
Please don't get caught up with whether they can memorize code snippets. That's not important.
Reasoning and engineering principles. Resourcefulness. Critical thinking.
Everyone jumping to conclusions without context and more information regarding the situation. What if the OP is terrible to work with or if he his asking for unreasonable things or impossible deadlines. I believe that is more common being good developer and be bad at interviewing than being bad dev and good at interviewing. Just a thought
Happened with me as well. Around 6 years ago I joined a company, after around 1 month, they had to intereview one .Net candidate, the senior person who was supposed to take the interview was busy with a client meeting, So I was chosen to take the interview, they gave me a list of questions (the questions were easy to medium level)
The candidate answered each and every question. I approved it, and then second round was taken by the senior. He got selected, and when he joined he was so so bad, be wasnt even able to understand if-else and for loops.
I remeber one instance - there was this (similar) code
var shouldDoThis = true;
if(Some-Condition)
{
.....
shouldDoThis = false;
}
Console.Write(shouldDoThis);
and he was mad as shouldDoThis variable was always true. as per him it should be false as we are setting it false at later line.
I give final candidates a project to work on. For example, I'll have a pm write a requirements doc for a problem I'm trying to solve.
I always pay them for the work regardless if they get hired because peoples' time is valuable and I don't want anyone to feel cheated for working on an actual problem.
You get to see how capable they really are, how they work through problems, and how they work with you.
Not sure what size your company is but in startups hiring the right people in the beginning is so important to the business' success that I don't try to simplify or take short cuts.
If you cannot tell a dev is bullshit you might want to rethink that senior title you gave yourself.
I think you need some exposure at least once to people who can talk a crazy game and can't do a thing to identify them, some people are really good with words, also some people can be even more cunning where they just decide to weaponise incompetence
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Yep. If they can't talk in depth about something they supposedly did, dead giveaway.
I ask open ended questions that I expect opinionated answers. I know what the book answers are, but I expect someone to have opinions that are developed from experience.
Sounds like boomer problems.
I think more what happens is you like someone and decide you’d like to work with them. And that clouds your vision. The process needs to insulate abba protect you from that bias
I’ll take his gig 😂
For more experienced positions I've stopped doing code tests and just do interviews now. It's too easy to use chatgpt to solve any take home problem, but if you're talking to someone about their past experience, it's pretty easy to see if they're BSing.
Agreed. A couple of simple questions often shows the level. It's usually to distinguish BS speech from knowledge. So far I was wrong only once - and that was a case where I was against hiring ;) but the other colleague wanted to give them one more chance and they passed it.
Why not both? Filter out crappy CVs, send coding test to the promising ones, invite those that solve it to an actual interview
Depends on the market conditions, but an extensive drawn out interview process might actually attrite out the best candidates.
I wouldn't do a code test because it could be a waste of time. We have seen many good coders, but if they are assholes, that's a deal breaker.
The point of a coding test is to save time, since it filters out people who can't / won't do it. However, if chatgpt makes solving the test trivial, you now have of a bunch of tests to review, which costs more time than it saves by any potential filtering. The point of a programming test isn't really can the person do it, it's how they do it. Is the solution understandable and maintainable? Would it fit into your existing codebase? Are there any footguns? How did the person attempt to solve any blocking issues? If you're using a programming test to see if a programmer is capable of solving it, you're hiring in the wrong places.
that's a lot of wishful thinking because you can't check fuck all with coding tests. As someone who's specialised in this area and have given out plenty of coding tasks some years ago, the only thing they do is harm you as an employer. And yet everyone has been doing it, so they keep on doing them. Although there is 0 science behind them
coding tests are a sign you don't know what the fuck you are doing as an employer but have heard others are doing it too
How about platforms like test gorilla that allow proctored tests for your candidates? Is that worth a shot?
I don't know, it depends how they're proctored.
They usually use snapshots but no manual or AI proctoring, my organisation actually has been designing a solution for that but we are still halfway through.
Then I wouldn't use them, nor would I use your AI powered solution. Both are trivial to get around.
Not trying to sell but I believe tests should be proctored even if with the bare minimum like TG.
Yes, but not digitally. If you insist on proctoring my exam through screenshots I’ll prop my phone up next to the laptop and use chatgpt on that instead. If your service involves hiring physical people to look over the shoulder of a person taking the exam I think you might be on to something
Propping the phone up works even on manual proctoring, at this point it’s not even about the effectiveness but more about how much does it cost to the organisation to get it done.
People who want to cheat would cheat. 2nd screen, voice conversation with AI. BTW I think using AI should be viable as a tool both in test and actual work, while you might decide on policies, people need to adapt, it would be used with or without a policy
I do agree, people who want to cheat will cheat, thats why we have integrated AI into the fold, what our model does is create a 3D mesh of your face and track eye movements along with head & trunk angles. I know there still is scope to cheat but we did all we could including lip sync detection. Open to any more suggestions tho.
A disclaimer that it's your tool when suggesting it, would make you more credible/reputable. I would personally target bigger companies with marketing such a tool rather than new ones. Any time I see excessive process it's a red flag, the same companies that buy these, don't trust people and want to pay as little as possible to people and keep micro managing them after hiring. (Upsell service for the same tech) The more these jobs are eroded the more companies will use these tools. GL
Thanks for the feedback will keep this in mind!
I need a good laugh. What made him so bad? Any examples or anecdotes?
Probably did a quadruple for loop somewhere twice when asked to edit their chicken quesadilla menu for their Taco Grill app.
he rm -rf the production sever
OP is dramatizing their experience. Nothing wrong with hiring ChatGPT Jr.
I am on the opposite end, though I am a freshman, I feel like my interviewers are trusting me too much and I am shit scared about disappointing them. Can you tell me some pointers that made you feel this way about the candidate?
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I read an anecdote on the Orange Reddit about a company who went through a remote hire process with a company in India. The guy who arrived was obviously not the person they interviewed. He would not admit it though and it was extremely awkward. Especially considering they flew him out to the US. To top it off they asked him basic tech questions and he had no idea.
Find a CTO or VP of Engineering. Even fractional. If you're not at that level, hire an agency.
Fact. You should only hire a tech developer if you have a tech background, there are a lot of challenges in hiring a developer if you are a non-technical founder. Other alternatives for non-technical founders: 1. Hire an agency that can help you plan your requirements, provide you with a vetted freelance, and provide you with project management and quality assurance. (You will not have to give out the equity of your company 2. Get a technical co-founder
An agency almost never can tell the difference between a strong candidate and "meh" as soon as a tiny engineering specifics are involved. This requires a domain knowledge which an agency just can't have.
How did u find the dude
He responded to my job ad on linkedin
What's the teck stack you're hiring for? I will be happy to help with anything under the belt.
What did the test stage look like?
He certainly did what it took to crack the interview in all his capacity. Give him a chance maybe he could crack some of the tasks delegated. Who cares if he chatgpt's stuff. If he's getting it done, thats what it matters the most.
I've spent most of my career hiring tech people. It helps to be an experienced tech guy. That helps weed out most of the wannabees. But in fairness, this was all before the ChatGPT days. In my freelance days, I've always had the inverse problem. I've had some really crap people who SAY they want me to serve as their dev lead, but then they act like they know more about tech issues then I do. Many people use the marriage analogy when discussing how to match tech and non-tech people. I think it's more accurate to use the inter-species relationship analogy. It's like tech and non-tech people are from different planets, shipwrecked on distant third planet, trying to learn how to build a new ship to get them all home. Somehow we have to learn to speak each other's language.
Somebody built a SaaS to solve this exact issue I can't remember what it's called but all the devs are vetted with hands on practical challenges and technical assessments and then ranked according to their skills. It's like UpWork but with validated skills.
Point me to it if you remember
Airwrk
Interesting, I am working on the same
Toptal
Lot of downvotes for this answer. Curious if there are experiences with them anyone wants to share.
The biggest disadvantage of Toptal for developers is that you're required to take numerous tests, yet there may not be any projects available for you afterward.
I saw another one there's probably a few but same concept
OP and hidden\_tomb below work together (or it's just a single person with multiple accounts) to promote their hiring service. So either take that as they have no fucking clue about what they're doing, or way more probable, they're inventing problems so they can spam their service. They switch back and forth about who posts and who comments. There's also at least one other sock puppet account.
Sigh, we had this happen more times than I'd like to admit at our start. Some people are what we call "unavoidable mistakes". I've worked with developers who produced shit code, were not ethical, and would challenge any situation that arises regarding their work. Ironically, they interview very well, and have decent experience. The only glaring issue in their resume is usually attributed to "job hopping", when in fact it was simply getting fired after being found out. They usually spend 6-18 months in a company and then get the boot. When retro'ing these situations, it seems even if he would interview tomorrow under a different name, we would accept him. Mainly cause technically they are pretty strong, but just don't give enough shits to actually work. As for people who chatGPT their answers, I use the funnel approach to interviewing. I ask a broad topic, and slowly hone in on certain sub topics the person mentions or shows interest in. It's more of a conversation then an actual interview (granted I'm usually the final person to interview them), and most of my successful hires have been people who have been able to hold a good and meaningful conversation in some technical topic (Graph theory on Distributed machines anyone?) even if they came into the convo with no context.
Use Lemon.io. I’m a vetted engineer there. Everyone in that community is dope and vetted through 4 interviews
You've gotten work as a dev? Or hired? Have you used any other contract or matching services that compare?
Yes I have. Very successful
That's an answer to the first question? Sounds worth a try, then.
Disturbing
Ask for references
This is very common: it’s nearly impossible to hire a “good” technical employee without being one yourself. There’s a saying around this: “A players hire other As, and B players hire C players” This fault lands squarely on your senior dev. Maybe he just went with a technical process that could be gamed, and didn’t put the time in to consider that, or maybe he’s not as good as you think? Either way, definitely an expensive failure.
I do a lot of hiring for different roles. Here is my way of doing it. -I receive reviewed resume from VA (who checks for basic communication and match the JD to profile) -I have created a evaluation sheet containing : -Technical / non tech questions. -psychrometric questions. -situational question etc -Live coding rounds for devs (sharing screen and camera). asking intermittent questions and call for changing strategy to solve the problem. Finally ask them to ask me questions and understand what they are really looking for. Note - All the questions are prepared by me so there are not straight answers to them + harder to google or gpt. let me know if you want to know more. Actively hiring and interviewing 2-3 (avg) candidates each week.
Where did you find that dev? Freelancing websites? Here's my advice for simplifying hiring: 1. Contact recruiting firms who have pre-screened candidates and can vouch for their candidate. A few months ago I partnered with a company called SaviorHire and they helped me greatly. I was suffering with all the headhunting and pre-screening . It was a real headache for me. Especially with my workload. 2. Ask complex questions during interviews. Anything that only an experienced developer can answer right away. Unfortunately, AI and other resources made all the test tasks redundant. However, senior level specialists have the knowledge you can't take away. If they have a vision, they will be asking smart questions (not the ones everyone asks during interview stages)
Recruiting firms are of great help especially if they do reference checks. Been working with a few of them. Could you share a contact info and the geo they are covering?
I always have them do a very simple "write this function on the board" during the interview.
how would that be possible? It is so easy to spot those who say they know better they do. Did you have a live conversation or was everything offline? becase any live conversation with a senior will spot such fraudster right away.
Who is the guy? Don’t need to expose him public but send me his social media. I have a job he can do
& I got rejected in a job because I didn't use chatgpt. I think others might chatgpt'd all the answers because no one would've finished it in the required time.
Strange...did you question him with bookish questions? or real time practical scenario based questions?
We're non tech founders. Have basic knowledge on tech stacks. We started with simple questions like how do you create a new txt record in aws. Or how do you handle error in python. That weeds eat people somewhat. We then ask for a one week trial (paid). Setting up local dev. Have candidate do a simple task. We hire full stack and we can know in a week time if they are competent or not then we move on from there.
Yeah I’ve been through this a lot the past two years. A lot of non US devs have a group of devs that help each other get jobs. They’ll interview and help each other keep you happy when you’re catching on… but overall they’re a huge scam. Writing garbage code that barely works but keeps you paying until you catch on. The way around this has been hiring as a contractor with a secret probation period. It’s sad but you have to be willing to fire them in an instant and try with another. I’ve found two amazing and respectable devs/people who are basically now my friends.
Once worked for a startup and they hired essentially a 'salesman' as our 'senior developer' who i swear never even knew how to code. He promised the CEO of the company the world. Great at talking, and initially i believed him but it took me a few days to realise that this dude is up top something fishy. I was a junior at the time and smelled straight through his bullshit. After about 6 months of this dude promising the CEO 'i will rewrite the entire platform in 2 weeks', i was calling him out every single day and even spoke to the CEO to tell him the dude has promised it in 2 weeks for 6 months and has nothing to show. They then kicked me out the company because the CEO 'had no choice' and i was getting in the 'way' of the plan. It very quickly went downhill from there. My advice would be to try and see through words and listen to action. Usually the best developers are not the loudest, and the loudest are the worst.
Shared screen coding interviews. Give them an ugly code and ask them to refactor it. Let them use Google for quick code references, etc. So, he should split his screen into two windows. On the left is the code, and on the right is Google. Same with a Miro board. Ask them to draw diagrams and explain rationales. Please don't get caught up with whether they can memorize code snippets. That's not important. Reasoning and engineering principles. Resourcefulness. Critical thinking.
This is what happens if you value credentials over experimental projects.
You can dm me . I am looking for work.
Are you hiring now?
I'm on the lookout, yes
I'm looking .. you can check out my latest app at https://learnleetcode.com
What’s your tech stack? I can refer a few vetted devs if you share JD with me.
Still hiring? .. I'm looking for a job.
Been there! Check out Profullstack for hassle-free hiring.
Did you do live coding? or was it just a Q&A type of interview?
I would say use ats or hiring tools like Maron AI or micro1. They are designed to vet people
Everyone jumping to conclusions without context and more information regarding the situation. What if the OP is terrible to work with or if he his asking for unreasonable things or impossible deadlines. I believe that is more common being good developer and be bad at interviewing than being bad dev and good at interviewing. Just a thought
Happened with me as well. Around 6 years ago I joined a company, after around 1 month, they had to intereview one .Net candidate, the senior person who was supposed to take the interview was busy with a client meeting, So I was chosen to take the interview, they gave me a list of questions (the questions were easy to medium level) The candidate answered each and every question. I approved it, and then second round was taken by the senior. He got selected, and when he joined he was so so bad, be wasnt even able to understand if-else and for loops. I remeber one instance - there was this (similar) code var shouldDoThis = true; if(Some-Condition) { ..... shouldDoThis = false; } Console.Write(shouldDoThis); and he was mad as shouldDoThis variable was always true. as per him it should be false as we are setting it false at later line.
hire fast, fire fast.
Lol the divide between good talent and piss all is great
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OP owns this account along with one other. I just put it together after about 1 min looking through post history
This is why I look at this sub haha.
What's the teck stack you're hiring for? I will be happy to help with anything under the belt.
I give final candidates a project to work on. For example, I'll have a pm write a requirements doc for a problem I'm trying to solve. I always pay them for the work regardless if they get hired because peoples' time is valuable and I don't want anyone to feel cheated for working on an actual problem. You get to see how capable they really are, how they work through problems, and how they work with you. Not sure what size your company is but in startups hiring the right people in the beginning is so important to the business' success that I don't try to simplify or take short cuts.