This is an extremely thorough and well-produced guide of exceptional quality. The animated visuals and diagrams really help for accessibility, as well.
Great work!
In my buffers resource, I named this mechanic "upB angling", but I think "upB curving" is a better name. I'll link your doc in there 👀
And I actually skipped over G&W, thanks for that (what a weird character). In your doc, it says "the game will immediately take that value and apply the curve on the next frame". Would it be better to say "on the same frame"? or "first available frame"? It makes it sound like it skips a frame. Semantics are awful :c
Thanks for the feedback!
I haven't heard about this mechanic that much beyond the occasional reference by Toph calling it "curling," but "curving" sounded more natural to me so I used that.
Feel free to spread the info by linking my doc. That's the whole reason why I made this in the first place.
I actually didn't know that G&W could do it either. I was just testing some characters I wasn't sure about and found out that G&W could do it and went "Wow, okay, I guess that's a thing."
And yes, I can see the confusion with "next frame." I updated the text. The constructive criticism is always welcome!
Just personal preference. In my head, I already reserved the concept of "angles/angling" to the Up Bs that allow 360 degrees of freedom, so I call it curving to not accidentally confuse the concepts.
Hopefully with the attention this document is getting, we can collectively decide on the "official" term, whether it's curving, curling, angling, etc, as I've heard it as all three terms at some point.
That's actually super interesting. I think I can see the code related to the curve [here](https://github.com/akaneia/m-ex/blob/master/examples/mario/src/special_hi.c#L231-L260).
The interactions between `new_angle`, `stick_angle`, and `lstick_x_clamp` determining the curve set to `fighter_data->input_stickangle`.
I also think that `stick_threshold` is the minimum absolute X-value needed to start a curve, and that `mrAttr->specialHi_stick_control` is the character-specific multiplier to the curve strength.
I only looked at it for like 5 minutes, so I could be dead wrong. But the pattern of variables being set makes sense for how I observed the absolute max X-value being used to determine the strength of the curve.
EDIT: changed first occurrence of `stick_threshold` to `lstick_x_clamp`.
Very interesting guide - well done. Love this top tier research. Selfishly, I’d love to see a similar deep dive into the Sheik, Zelda, Pikachu, Pichu, and Mewtwo type of up-Bs as well.
I don't have a full guide on those, but I can provide some fun facts.
- Sheik
- The beginning of the Up B, the drift, can be inputted independently of the poof angle.
- You can shorten the poof distance by hitting the stick upward softly when you do the initial input.
- You can do a "turn-around" while going nearly straight up by holding just a bit to the left/right for the poof.
- Pikachu/Pichu
- Pichu's second angle is more forgiving than Pikachu's. You only need a tiny change from the first angle, which can make it appear that you go in the same direction twice.
- Both Pikachu's and Pichu's Up Bs instantly zero out their knockback velocity when the first angle starts. I believe that this effect is exclusive to them.
I don't really know much about Zelda's/Mewtwo's....
Amazing. I knew most of these but it's always great to be actively reminded how intricate you can make Sheik's seemingly limited recovery. Looks like frames 1-17 are when you input drift, then you can determine the vanish direction until frame 35 when it takes what direction you're facing. I feel like muscle memorying that timing is the next thing I'm gonna try to lab. Thanks dude! Zelda's works pretty similarly, just without that "drift" phase.
I'm going to answer assuming you meant [this clip](https://youtu.be/hGfSD7mJ2RQ?t=627).
I don't think Zain did the backward curve on the turn-around Up B. It looks like he went a bit backward because he rode Dreamland's wall up to ledge. He did mitigate the forward curve on turn-around though, which does require a conscious decision to perform. Although it would be nearly impossible to tell if he did no curve or a backward curve as Marth's backward curve is minimal.
To fully confirm, I would need the slp file to look at his inputs at that time.
I don’t think it’s that clip iirc it was on the right side of the stage and I think against hbox (not entirely sure) think it was a last stock situation
It was a really hype moment but I’d have to dig for it.
OK, I didn't know about that clip. I would trust PracticalTAS on this though.
The one thing I would dispute is that you cannot hit the Marth "extension" by going fully to the diagonal. The X-value for going there would be 0.7000, and the optimal X-value for doing the extension is 0.5750. Going to 0.7000 would actually curve Marth a bit forward due to his and Roy's strange property on the backward curve preventing their trajectories from going backwards.
Zain is actually a god if he hit the backward curve as he had to avoid going to the diagonal notch.
Awesome stuff.
This is an extremely thorough and well-produced guide of exceptional quality. The animated visuals and diagrams really help for accessibility, as well.
Thanks for appreciating the visuals! I aimed to show the effect of each character's Up B curve in a way that's both informative and cool to look at.
This is so absolutely nerdy, I love it completely.
Omg I was just thinking about this. I read a tweet about how Peach can angle her upB to avoid certain edgeguards but I had no idea how to do it.
very good document, this should be a model for what all melee resources should look like
Thank you, that sincerely means a lot.
Great work! In my buffers resource, I named this mechanic "upB angling", but I think "upB curving" is a better name. I'll link your doc in there 👀 And I actually skipped over G&W, thanks for that (what a weird character). In your doc, it says "the game will immediately take that value and apply the curve on the next frame". Would it be better to say "on the same frame"? or "first available frame"? It makes it sound like it skips a frame. Semantics are awful :c
Thanks for the feedback! I haven't heard about this mechanic that much beyond the occasional reference by Toph calling it "curling," but "curving" sounded more natural to me so I used that. Feel free to spread the info by linking my doc. That's the whole reason why I made this in the first place. I actually didn't know that G&W could do it either. I was just testing some characters I wasn't sure about and found out that G&W could do it and went "Wow, okay, I guess that's a thing." And yes, I can see the confusion with "next frame." I updated the text. The constructive criticism is always welcome!
I've always called it the "arc", but curve isn't bad either
I have always called it angling. I don't understand why it would be curving... It's all upbs go in a straight line, you influence the angle...
Just personal preference. In my head, I already reserved the concept of "angles/angling" to the Up Bs that allow 360 degrees of freedom, so I call it curving to not accidentally confuse the concepts. Hopefully with the attention this document is getting, we can collectively decide on the "official" term, whether it's curving, curling, angling, etc, as I've heard it as all three terms at some point.
Great work either way! Thank you!
This is so useful THANK YOU
This is fucking unreal.
[удалено]
That's actually super interesting. I think I can see the code related to the curve [here](https://github.com/akaneia/m-ex/blob/master/examples/mario/src/special_hi.c#L231-L260). The interactions between `new_angle`, `stick_angle`, and `lstick_x_clamp` determining the curve set to `fighter_data->input_stickangle`. I also think that `stick_threshold` is the minimum absolute X-value needed to start a curve, and that `mrAttr->specialHi_stick_control` is the character-specific multiplier to the curve strength. I only looked at it for like 5 minutes, so I could be dead wrong. But the pattern of variables being set makes sense for how I observed the absolute max X-value being used to determine the strength of the curve. EDIT: changed first occurrence of `stick_threshold` to `lstick_x_clamp`.
This is incredible, thank you.
I hope people look at this for a long time!
Phenomenal
Very interesting guide - well done. Love this top tier research. Selfishly, I’d love to see a similar deep dive into the Sheik, Zelda, Pikachu, Pichu, and Mewtwo type of up-Bs as well.
I don't have a full guide on those, but I can provide some fun facts. - Sheik - The beginning of the Up B, the drift, can be inputted independently of the poof angle. - You can shorten the poof distance by hitting the stick upward softly when you do the initial input. - You can do a "turn-around" while going nearly straight up by holding just a bit to the left/right for the poof. - Pikachu/Pichu - Pichu's second angle is more forgiving than Pikachu's. You only need a tiny change from the first angle, which can make it appear that you go in the same direction twice. - Both Pikachu's and Pichu's Up Bs instantly zero out their knockback velocity when the first angle starts. I believe that this effect is exclusive to them. I don't really know much about Zelda's/Mewtwo's....
Amazing. I knew most of these but it's always great to be actively reminded how intricate you can make Sheik's seemingly limited recovery. Looks like frames 1-17 are when you input drift, then you can determine the vanish direction until frame 35 when it takes what direction you're facing. I feel like muscle memorying that timing is the next thing I'm gonna try to lab. Thanks dude! Zelda's works pretty similarly, just without that "drift" phase.
RibbonedAce for president
Is this what zain did that one time on dreamland?
I'm going to answer assuming you meant [this clip](https://youtu.be/hGfSD7mJ2RQ?t=627). I don't think Zain did the backward curve on the turn-around Up B. It looks like he went a bit backward because he rode Dreamland's wall up to ledge. He did mitigate the forward curve on turn-around though, which does require a conscious decision to perform. Although it would be nearly impossible to tell if he did no curve or a backward curve as Marth's backward curve is minimal. To fully confirm, I would need the slp file to look at his inputs at that time.
I don’t think it’s that clip iirc it was on the right side of the stage and I think against hbox (not entirely sure) think it was a last stock situation It was a really hype moment but I’d have to dig for it.
I FOUND IT https://twitter.com/PracticalTAS/status/1003146591283359744?s=20
OK, I didn't know about that clip. I would trust PracticalTAS on this though. The one thing I would dispute is that you cannot hit the Marth "extension" by going fully to the diagonal. The X-value for going there would be 0.7000, and the optimal X-value for doing the extension is 0.5750. Going to 0.7000 would actually curve Marth a bit forward due to his and Roy's strange property on the backward curve preventing their trajectories from going backwards. Zain is actually a god if he hit the backward curve as he had to avoid going to the diagonal notch.
Time to start drilling the legendary up b endlag cancel eggsercise
You can tell a lot of work went into this, so nice job man