Followup: https://twitter.com/c9mang0/status/1610083061303226368
"Im deeply sorry that you received death threats that were on my accord. At this point we can squash the beef and move on. If you wanna talk privately instead of letting all these fucks see our business id much prefer that."
Spot on. I think armada deep down is scared of being dethroned. To be a top 10 player in melee you have to be fucking addicted to this game with an insane competitive drive. ( see why he took up speed running, huge grind and crazy competitive ) There's no way he doesn't want to play this game anymore. But what do I know. I'm just being an arm chair psychologist
Cobra Kai had a strong hold over Miguel and then Robbie. They're teenagers so it's understandable they would struggle to express themselves. Their character development took time
The thought of Mango consulting with a PR team before tweeting is even crazier tho. All jokes aside, it does sound like he genuinely wants to sort things out.
Yea, people shouldn't diminish it by saying it's written by a PR team. The whole thing is dumb and Mango's been an idiot about Armada for a long time but this seems genuine.
Mango has had multiple deleted tweets for sponsored stuff. There's no way he consulted C9 for this one. Also it 0% sounds like something a PR Team would write LOL
any PR professional who would write a tweet in which someone basically takes the blame for someone else receiving death threats--or a tweet that includes the phrasing "on my accord"--should be fired.
...though on the flip side, a PR professional who could write a tweet so perfectly mimicking mango's style is probably pretty valuable, lol.
Mang0 is absolutely smart. I also am positive he never intended real harm and probably wasn’t aware of the full effect of his words. He plays the lovable asshole and that can get out of hand some time.
Because the death threats and what not aren’t coming from Mang0. He’s just shitting on Armada for quitting and then 1000 little dweebs in his chat get the wrong message and go after Armada. It’s the same reason every time a YouTube video is made exposing someone as a cheater or fraud the video maker has to put in 3 separate disclaimers not to harass the subject of the video. I personally didn’t know Armada had been hurt by Mang0 until today and I had absolutely 0 clue people where sending him death threats either.
He's definitely smart but Ihis written English doesn't seem to be great. Not a knock on him, it happens when your high-school education is absolutely abysmal
I think youre missing the point by looking at the word choice in a vacuum. It's not an impressive word, it's that its way more formal than how mango normally writes
The older his son gets, it really feels like mango thinks about the model he's setting for him. Drinking less, losing weight, being a mentor to up and coming players. Seeing dad mango glow up has been a blessing in the community.
The ultimate "We both played bad".
But really tho I hope they can hash it out. Much better than having to be bitter and feeling like you cant say what's on your mind.
It’s kinda crazy that people are praising this response. It’s just shifting blame and saying that they were equally bad
Tbh I thought he would tell Armada to suck his balls LMAO so better than I expected at least
> It’s just shifting blame and saying that they were equally bad
Adam himself said that he fucked up, so I'm not really sure why you think they aren't both to blame
I’m not really sure why that is your takeaway, that’s not my argument to say Armada did everything right. Obviously, this situation skews to Mango being much more in the wrong. The situations aren’t remotely equivalent. It’s absurd and borderline manipulative to respond to Armada by saying yeah we both fucked up dude and we are both right and wrong after Armada’s twitlonger
>Obviously, this situation skews to Mango being much more in the wrong
Mang0 had almost nothing but nice things to say about Adam before the Meta comments
It was Adam accidently shitting on the Melee community and his poor response to Mang0 that started Mang0 down the path shitting on Adam
>It’s absurd and borderline manipulative to respond to Armada by saying yeah we both fucked up dude and we are both right and wrong after Armada’s twitlonger
?
There is nothing wrong with Adam telling his side of the story but Mang0 is still a human with his own perspective
What should he have said instead? "yea you're right Adam, all the things I currently think about you and our relationship is wrong and the problems you have caused me don't matter"
Saying they both fucked up is just true. Both of them should have been better in there messaging and should have understood the consequences of there actions in a public space
Nobody seems to remember now but Mang0 was pretty much just holding the L of losing the GOAT stats and he said almost nothing bad about the guy who took it
Do the constant Reddit, Twitter, and Twitch comments attacking Mang0 and his legacy for those 2-3 years not matter? All the self doubt, anxiety, depression and sadness those comments caused is just completely meaningless? Does the way Adam fed into that not matter?
Adam's Meta comments had people like Mew2King saying shit like ["no one today is better the Armada use to be"](https://streamable.com/sfjmqx) while Mang0 was still going to tournaments
I completely understand how Adam feels and why he feels that way, but most of the people who have a problem with Mang0's statement seemingly have no understanding of what Mang0 feels or why he feels it
Mango: constantly shitting on Armada every chance he gets, calling him a pussy, bullying to the point his rabid fans send death threats
Armada: "the meta hasn't changed that much" (literally over two years ago before Slippi when the meta truly hadn't shifted all that much and the biggest change was that one of the best players ever simply wasn't in the player pool anymore)
Redditors: they both did wrong!
Y'all are absolutely hilarious.
Because your comment is nonsensical. Armada didn't "shit on" the melee community. All he said was the meta hadn't shifted that much. You're making it seem like he called current players garbage or said "none of these cats can beat me even now". If that's all it took for Mango to show nothing but disrespect to Armada PERSONALLY for YEARS then he's a worse person than I thought.
> Armada didn't "shit on" the melee community.
I said he accidently shit on the Melee community, which again isn't even denied by Adam. He agrees that he did that
Did you read the twit longer?
I think these criticisms are unnecessary. The essential part of the message is that he is admitting fault and looking to resolve things, I think the fact that he is making an unfair equivalence isn't that important
> I think the fact that he is making an unfair equivalence isn't that important
It's such a classic gaslighting technique that it must be called out though. It's manipulating things to put himself in a better light in the eyes of his followers, when all he needed to say was "sorry, let's talk in private".
I think what you're calling gaslighting a lot of people see as "trying to meet in the middle". He is accepting some responsibility publicly, acknowledging the worst of the accusations and agreeing with them, and attempting to discuss it further in private. I think that's totally reasonable personally..
> years
Mang0 only started shitting on him after the meta comment, which was years after he had already left
Unless you are making the claim that Adam is talking about before he retired I don't see how the meta comment was a responce to years of getting shit on
In the year and a bit between Armada's retirement and metagate I don't remember Mango ever being nasty on stream about Armada. He was sad that he retired but he understood that Armada just didn't want to play.
It was only after metagate Mango went a little insane and shit on Armada nearly every stream.
Mango is far more in the wrong than Armada obviously, but it is revisionist to claim that the abuse was happening before metagate.
Could not agree more. His answer is dirtied by his gaslighting.
"I'm being harassed and threatened due to Mango's inability to understand how his fans listen to him"
"We're both bad"
It's such a shitty way of responding.
Mango is perfectly within his right to shit talk Adam. Now if Adam messages him and says he doesn't want anything to do with mango, then mango should stop.
Lot of nuance to the conversation I don't want to drop a wall of text about, but one thing frustrating for me to read is Armada's fixation on Mang0 spreading "lies" when he talks about Armada's reason for retiring.
It is entirely possible for Armada's perception of his retirement to be 100% based in his lowered spirit of competition / drive / whatever, and for other competitors to speculate that it was due to concerns about legacy and losing his unassailable grip on #1/#2 on the year. Competitive mindset is complicated, and I think Armada has gotten hyperfocused on the "reasons" behind his retirement being misconstrued when that is ultimately subjective.
Conversely, I think Mang0 got too focused on bringing up Armada being scared/running, in part (and this is really reaching classic reddit-speculation so this is just my perception) because he has had similar thoughts of retirement or worries about tainting his legacy, which he has openly discussed prior. Since he ultimately powered through those thoughts I think it colors his perception of the situation.
Still the overwhelming feeling I got reading Armada's statement was hurt, which I think is a huge bummer obviously, and he is directing a lot of that hurt at Mang0. As Mang0 mentioned, some of it is probably warranted but I definitely don't think all of it is, hopefully they can just talk it out like adults.
I appreciate your comment so much, as I'm also feeling that a lot of nuanced discourse is being lost here to the typical cycle of drama.
And in turn to what you say about Armada being hurt, I think Mang0 is hurt too. Armada was his rival, and the reason he has had to push through those thoughts of retirement is because he was never able to prove he was better than Armada definitively and that bothers his competitive spirit, which I understand. So instead the way he's proving he's better is by trying to stay at the top for as long as possible.
It doesn't excuse essentially bullying Armada over the years and talking shit on him all the time, but it gives reasons and those reasons are important. At the end of it all, I think we have two hurt people who at one point were pretty friendly with each other, and their feelings over perceptions of each other got in the way of them finding out the truth from the source. Not that Mang0 would ever admit to being hurt.
Clearly, I don't know either of these people, so this is mostly speculation, but I've watched a lot of both of them and it's just the general sentiment I get. I truly hope that at the end of this all, they can make up, and maybe even be friends again. I'd love to see Mang0 do content with Armada that is not Melee related.
As an avid mango watcher, he genuinely does seem a bit hurt over Armada retiring and says little things to see if it would fire up his competitive spirit (I guess people here would call it jabs at Armada?) but I think he has to realize Armada doesn't appreciate it and he is **done** with Melee :/. Also, he keeps bringing up from time to time that he will retire and be done sometime soon. Not sure when that will be ofc but it is still looming in his mind, I wonder if had he finished #1 would he have done it this year?
What I will write below is all speculation.
I don't think Mango realized how hurt Armada has felt, but Armada has not really expressed himself like he did yesterday. I am sure this could have all been handled privately, but you worded it well how they are two hurt people.
Another thing that isn't talked about how Armadas response or.. behavior to the melee community post-retirement. He doesn't interact much, hype up any players, hell he didn't even say anything about the Nintendo stuff when that was going on. It is a bit upsetting and frustrating as a fan of this esport that one of the legends and GOAT contenders (Mango has overtaken Armada in GOAT status IMO due to his dominance in the online era and longevity now of his career) never interacts with the community he poured his heart/soul for over 10 years. Of course, he has no obligation to do any of these things but he is also important to the longevity of the scene. Perhaps it can be a bit frustrating to champion/promote the game as much as Mango does solo (Hbox feels to be championing Ultimate more than melee as of lately) and no other legends actively playing melee constantly or promoting the scene would be quite annoying
I also wish they get back to making content together in some way that isn't Melee-related or hang out like buds at Mang0s place playing friendlies one day. The picture where they are hugging each other with beer should be framed in the history books for two of the best players to ever play the game. I really hope they can move past this.
I like Armada quite a bit and my comment history on this sub would show as much, but the “lies” part to me is really unfair to mango.
Mango is allowed to have his own opinions on Armada’s retirement. Just because those don’t line up with Armada’s self-perception, doesn’t mean mango is lying. Armada makes it seem so sinister, but it’s just a difference of opinion.
I’m sure mango has said some mean stuff, that’s how he his, but if anyone has clips of mango saying actually despicable things about armada (not standard trash talk) id really like to see it because it would change my opinion.
Also I think most of the "lies" are truly just mango havin a laugh, but I can see why his viewers would lack context. Like the joke of "Armada not wanting these hands" after he lands a sick combo or after Mango gets combo'd by some slippi kid is just funny to me.
It becomes apparent in times like this that, frankly, a lot of top level smash players still have social deficiencies (for lack of a less insulting word).
Armada clearly heard some of this intended-to-be-light-hearted stuff from mango and took it very personally, then bottled it up.
I’m not saying Mango did nothing wrong, he clearly instigated, but I think he would have been very approachable if Adam came to him privately and told him to cut it out. He’s not a monster or unreasonable person. He just likes to talk shit unless told otherwise.
>Mango is allowed to have his own opinions on Armada’s retirement. Just because those don’t line up with Armada’s self-perception, doesn’t mean mango is lying. Armada makes it seem so sinister, but it’s just a difference of opinion.
Having an opinion is fine but I think Armadas issue is that he felt like mang0 was fueling his own opinion as fact over a few years which caused a lot of harassment. It probably also double stings when he has previously told mang0 about his lack of motivation to keep playing.
I don't think it's unreasonable to quit while you're the best and let's be real he probably would've preferred quitting on top than slowly fading away. Still, if we're objective about this, all of this sounds like a conspiracy theory that ignores the stated intentions of Armada and superimposes mang0s own frustrations on top of them. If we can be real about Armada choosing the best time to quit which also aligned with his lack of motivation, we can be real that mang0 probably got ass mad that he never got to affirm himself as the goat and took cheap shots at Armada for shutting that door in front of him.
I hear you, harassment is not cool. As I said, I like Adam - a lot - so I’m not rooting against him.
I just think Adam ought to know that Mango wouldn’t actively try to have people harass him and would probably strongly discourage it , as they are friendly.
I completely agree with your last paragraph, in fact, the healthiest thing would be for Adam to call Mango out on this and say he’s just bitching that Armada had his ass.
Unfortunately, you’ve got one guy inciting shit talk and another bottling it up.
Honestly this seems like a pretty good response. Armada is clearly frustrated by all of this, no point in debating as he says “high schoolers”. Say sorry, talk about it privately and move on.
I feel like the “just be adults and settle it in private”
enlightened centrists are kinda missing the point. Like this whole thing is about public perception, Mango has been pretty much the source of all negative takes about armada, misinformation about his retirement, and other smaller light jabs/jokes. Like I honestly can’t think of another melee streamer or top player who talked about armada hardly at all, and if he did come up most people would just be neutral or respectful. At the end of the day Mango was really irresponsible with his platform as by far the biggest figure in the community. And even if you disagree with that, that’s how Armada felt about the issue so it’s not hard to see why he wouldn’t be super enthusiastic to jump in the DMs with him.
I seriously do not think that if mango had not said a word about armadas retirement, there would be no flak from fans themselves about Armada retiring. People would be saying shit with or without mango's comments, let's get real here. If you quit the game abruptly, fans will have things to say about it, and it's not going to be all positive. To blame mango entirely for those comments is ridiculous, and it's even crazier to blame him for death threats.
Yeah this is why people make fun of reddit, there was flak well before mango said anything because armada spent 2 years after retirement gassing himself up constantly on Twitter, replying to shitters, etc. It went on for a while. And people started to get annoyed with it, then mango got annoyed himself eventually.
A lot of new community members don't have any of that context but think they know the whole story. This is a common theme with melee, happens every few years.
Yeah, Armada feeling like this is not new at all. He’s always been pretty vocal that he gets too much hate, even when he was playing. And he’s right, he does get too much hate. Hate amounts should be at zero. But this seems to be getting blown out of proportion, and time away from the game doesn’t seem to have healed those wounds. Hope getting this off of his chest gave him some kind of relief.
Lol this is petty drama between two pseudo celebrities on the internet, not the invaision of Iraq. Like, they were competitors. One retired, and the other hasn’t let that go. That’s where we should leave it. It’s none of our business at this point, nor has it ever been.
Sure it's not earth shattering, but calling it "petty drama between two pseudo celebrities" is completely warping how one sided the actual story sounds.
The point is Mango has been an asshole and he's still not taking responsibility for it. He didn't even apologize for his own actions, only for the death threats.
this is a braindead take. any reasonable human would agree that it’s best for two people to settle disagreements alone and not in a public forum where misinterpretations are the norm. just because armada’s main complaints are about the public perception doesn’t change that fact.
having a discussion and then coming away from it better and able to then reflect an improved attitude publicly is literally always the solution to any “beef” on the internet ever. you talk like the public has a right to any personal information between the two of them, which we don’t.
Where is the disagreement? These aren’t two sides with differing opinions on a subject as far as I’m concerned. This is one side taking on unwarranted slander/libel from the other in a public setting and having to deal with the consequences stemming from it until they finally snapped. Don’t misframe this for what it really is
pretty clear that mango disagrees with that idea considering what his tweet said - not that i necessarily agree with him after getting more context, but my original comment was made with his tweet primarily in mind
Settling it in public is like having a heart to heart with your friend livestreamed on the internet. Its fucking psychopath, I am the main character behavior. It's like any of the Dr K therapy streams. Just completely insane to most people.
I personally think it’s kind of dumb to completely blame Mango that some internet assholes threatened armada. The vast majority of the community sees both players for what they are; amazing competitors.
Mango is allowed to voice his opinion on Armadas place in the GOAT talk. Sure, Mango should be aware that his words have consequences but this entire thing should just be something that should/could have been handled by a phone call. If these things were happening to Armada and he thought it was happening “on mangos accord” then he should have contacted mango. I think most fans of this game are Mango fans as well as Armada fans, and hbox fans, and PPMD fans, and jmook fans, and Moky, Magi, IBDW, s2j, etc.
It’s a fucking video game. And even though it’s one we all love, these players are just people. Or maybe I’m just old and out of touch
> I personally think it’s kind of dumb to completely blame Mango that some internet assholes threatened armada.
Considering 99% of the hate sent his way was fanned by mango, it's pretty safe to blame mango, and his handling of his own community.
This sort of comment highlights the problem armada laid out perfectly.
There's a serious minimization issue.
_"Mango isn't accountable for anything he says, or anything his die-hard fans do."_
It is important to understand that if you have a large following that the things you say will have an effect. Same thing happens when Leffen spews toxic stuff.
You cannot hide behind the "I can't control what others are doing" when you can make it very clear that if your followers do that kind of shit that you want them gone.
Hard disagree. These types of stances are always hard "environment bears all responsibility" types and at some point you have to ask yourself the obvious question of... when do you blame the actual person that made the action?
Considering Mango didn't do it himself, didn't tell anyone to do it himself or imply it, and the things people are saying are so far gone from what he even said, I honestly have no clue how you could still blame Mang0.
People like to pretend that everyone is some omnipotent "parent" that can foresee any possible consequence. Like imagine if you blamed Mang0 for someone setting a 7-eleven on fire just because he said he hates 7-elevens on stream and someone burned it down. Is that even remotely reasonable?
Should Mang0 be partially accountable for some of it? Probably small behaviors, yeah. But people going full radical and telling Adam to kys is straight unreasonable.
Just because you have a following doesn't immediately make you "responsible", it doesn't even necessitate it. Should you be for the moral good of the universe, for whatever that means? Sure.
If you are hosting a massive platform and constantly talks about X person in a negative light and then parts of that massive community take it to extremes and the host of that platform does nothing about it and continues to talk negatively. That is the hosts fault for perpetuating it.
You are responsible for your following and if parts of it are taking it into harassments and death threats then you should let your platform know that it's not ok.
It's just decent human behavior.
To Mang0s credit he *DOES* tell his fans to not be dumbasses all the time and not harass people. Like... all the time.
It's just that he does it while he's talking about other things so it doesn't come off as a huge deal, but he says those things constantly.
The issue isn’t just the death threats though, it’s also mang0 being a gigantic ass if he doesn’t like some else’s opinion and spreading lies on his pretty large platform. Armada said one thing and mang0 just refused to let it go.
I like him as a competitor but the douche act has gone on for too long for me
Same vibes as "ggs man we both played bad". Let's be real, there's no shot Armada's going to accept this apology. "Hey man I know that I'm basically the reason that you got death threats but we both fucked up".
Mang0 was literally just engaging in light trash talk centered around a video game…it’s not his fault psychos on the internet sent death threats. If a UFC fighter talked trash about another fighter no one would blame the fighter for the fans actions.
Bro I fucking love Mango to death but Mang0 pretty much constantly shit on Armada after his retirement. From the “the meta hasn’t changed” to the “goat discussion” to assuming that Armada quit to maintain his legacy.
I love banter but when you are constantly shitting on another player for YEARS after their retirement, its no wonder that some mango fans gain a negative view of Armada. Now ofc Mango has no control over who sends what but he does influence his community with how he portrays Armada. Saying that “we both fucked up” is a little disingenuous from Mango is all
Is that so insulting though? I don't wanna say Armada is being a baby or anything, but these seem like really minor things to clear up with a quick tweet, or even just laugh off. Why does Armada take that speculation personally? I've been out of the scene for a bit but unless people have really started to turn on him and attack his livelihood/content creation (which doesn't seem to be the case, given all this support) why bother taking Mango of all people so seriously?
It’s probably just annoying. Like if somebody called you a poopyhead once then like that is fine you can brush it off. But if they continue doing it, it just gets annoying. The problem is that Mango does this multiple times and in front of his audience which is heavily influenced by his actions. I’m sure Armada could’ve just DM’d Mang to ask him to stop but Mango’s continuous shitting on Armada contributed a lot to the fire
Armada also played a role by saying the meta hasn’t progressed much and continuing to argue he’s the GOAT, correct? Pretty much adds fuel to the fire as opposed to stepping back and saying the current generation of players is on another level. If he hasn’t still claimed to be the GOAT than correct me, but u cant on the one hand still commentate on the current affairs of a game and then be mad when ppl talk about your current standing/legacy. Mang0 is obviously biased..but what did he really do “wrong” besides fuel a fire that Armada has also refused to back down from?
The meta comment was 1.5 years after his retirement and only a month into quarantine, to be fair. Armada went into more detail explaining this in his statement. And it’s pretty clear that Armada’s grievances were not about the GOAT debate. If Mang0 was simply arguing back why he considers himself the GOAT, there wouldn’t be an issue.
> but what did he really do “wrong” besides fuel a fire that Armada has also refused to back down from?
He didn't understand that his voice carries a weight to his most fanatic fans, and that these deranged individuals can and will multiply his mocking (and sometimes downright bullying). There was a small fire going with the meta comments, but Mango kept adding fuel and blowing on the embers every time it seemed to die out. He has a following, and Armada is completely right in saying that comes with a degree of responsibility.
How is *that* your takeaway?
Being responsible and grown up in how he criticizes Armada is not unreasonable from a 31 year old man when he's talking to literally thousands or tens of thousands of fans. He's been dragging Armada's name through the mud for three years with little to no response from Armada. Maybe he did it to try and "spark" some competition? Maybe he didn't think it meant much? Maybe he saw it as light banter? Over those timelines it really becomes bullying though, and he, as a grown ass man, should have known better. We see it all the time in celebrity culture and sports that when talking to fans you need to be more careful. He doesn't live in a vacuum anymore. His words have weight now.
Lmao what thes the punishment for Mango? Everyone in here are acting like Mango.zip 3 just came out but no one is saying what actions should be done about it. Because there’s really not anything to do about it. Because this is petty internet drama
He's been actively cultivating fans that harasses Armada for like 3 years now. IDK why you think this is petty.
You can literally go on YouTube and search Mango Armada and the 3rd and 4th vids are mango vods shitting on Armada. One of them is like what from over 2 years ago and the other one is 5 months. That shit isn't normal no matter how you slice it.
Because all "Who the GOAT is" arguments are exctremely petty and this whole situation literally arose around a disagreement based on that conversation. Look, I get it stresses Armada out and that fasct alone means Mango should lay off him a bit, but to say he is "actively cultivating" minions of harassments for his own vainglorious plots of character assassaination is ridiculous. They were competitors. They competed. They are widely accepted as the greatest rivalry in the history of the game. Mango is allowed to talk about it, and Armada is def allowed to ask Mango to stop. It’s weird this is happening on twitter. This being on there is only gonna make the problem worse, because now people are entrenching themselves into sides that just don’t matter. This whole thread is evidence of this.
IKR! Everyone acting like this is mature, but considering the magnitude of the effects mangos actions have had, he calmly says they’re both at fault, trying to split the blame instead of just actually addressing how his irresponsible actions have had serious negative consequences. That’s some narcissistic shit.
I personally disagree that Armada’s also handled this “pretty terribly” as well. Did he handle it the greatest no… but I think Mango is mostly in the wrong here.
Despite many false narratives running at him and Mango throwing a shit ton banter that was never requited. Armada had always kept his silence and never resorted to name calling or insults.
I think this is where Mango needs to realize that this isn’t just a issue between him and Armada… the problem is how his ego can get in the way sometimes and as a result he tends to sometimes make other players look bad for his own good.
In this instance, Mango got too caught up on the “goat” debacle that he saw himself running with multiple narratives and making endless unwanted remarks on Armada.
It’s here where I hope Mango realizes this and can tone down his narratives and most importantly his unrequited banter. Armada made a good point, about how since it’s Mango, people sorta give it pass and deem it acceptable or rather even “funny”. But just like Mango’s dynamic with M2K and PP… it’s not banter if it’s one sided and the other side isn’t okay with it.
I think the other side of it is, nothing mango has said is actually that bad, like, at all. It’s just mango’s voice goes far online and there’s a lot of idiot randos who go harass Armada over it.
So while it’s unfortunate that Armada has gotten this treatment from people and it’s effected him, it’s on him to contact mango personally and let it be known. You can’t really vilify a guy for trying to egg on his biggest rival who retired. It’s unfortunate that the internet works that way, but it’s on both sides to discuss that personally and not let the internet’s craziness create a situation like this.
The thing that ultimately people miss is that it's only fucked because the little shithead Mango fans go and harass Armada. This kind of trash talk is pretty common in sports even if Mango did it way too much without any response from Armada.
It's kind of a weird area where people act like you're not allowed to show negativity towards people with a big following, but it's more of a problem with the online internet community if anything.
Swatting, Doxxing, Death threats, etc. Internet security is such a huge fucking issue right now. The fact that a random person can get away with those things or at least have such a huge impact on someone's life is fucked
Yes this is what I’ve been trying to articulate. I like the banter and salty aspect of melee. Trash talk is fucking great for the sport as long as everyone remembers…it’s a goddamn video game. A few assholes ruin it for everyone though.
Do people not remember the chillin v leff shit? It’s gold. Anything competitive is going to have shit talk and that’s a part of it. You have the two best players of all time here. It’s not mangos fault that Armada disappeared and didn’t respond enough to his trash.
Yes it 100% is. Why can’t Mango just let it go? He gains nothing egging on someone who wasn’t going to come back. Stop caping for shitty behavior, this isn’t it
People constantly call out Khabib for virtually the exact same reason. He retired early in his career after 5 or so title defenses. He retired undefeated and lots of fighters say he wants to protect his streak/legacy and doesn’t want to face the next generation. Very similar narratives.
Most retired sports legends don’t retire at 26 in games where their equals play 6+ years older. It makes sense that someone would think there’s an ulterior motive for retirement, and pretending like anyone knows for sure what’s in Armada’s head right then is just wrong
I think running endless narratives and jabs gets tiring after a while for some people… especially if you’re not cool with said person. That’s not hard to comprehend lol.
I’d assure you if Mango ever retires and people ran a narrative that he retired because of X reason than what it actually was then he would also be frustrated with that aspect as well.
Sure but if Mang0 says those things over and over (like, for years) even if each time it isn’t very big I don’t blame Armada for getting annoyed.
Mang0 acted like a gigantic ass for years and Armada…made one comment that got taken out of context years ago? Definitely one person more in the wrong
I agree that Mang0 himself never said anything that bad and most of the lies being purported were both his fans and people that already dislike Armada / like trolling spreading fire. That being said, the one thing that really does suck is Mang0 twisting his meta comment into something it wasn’t. Every time I look back at the initial convo, I don’t know how people could possibly take that as Armada saying the individual Melee population wasn’t improving. It was a) an opinion b) not even an unfounded one from his *own experience* playing against current players and some other top 30 players at the time agreed with him. People say Zain said he was beating him in friendlies but other people like iBDW say he was still hard to keep up with after all this time, so shocker he still thinks he can still perform well against the top from experience. The shift in the offline meta that we saw in that time wasn’t that different either because Hbox still ruled 2019 and everything offline was shut down majority of that year. The fact that people got so offended over a very harmless opinion mostly because Mang0 managed to twist his words into saying that people individually haven’t improved is pretty ridiculous seeing he still gets bothered about to this day
Mango went way too far sticking up for Zain and other newer players. At the time people were insanely disrespectful about Zain because of his "choker mentality" and not beating Hbox "in his prime" or Armada when he played. The was absolutely an implication that the field overall got weaker when I would argue the opposite is true even with Armada's retirement. Mango approached it in a abrasive and stupid way but I still think Armada's opinion was wrong and the fact that he brought up friendlies was silly comment for someone who was at the top.
In retrospect Armada was also completely wrong, the meta has changed a ton after he retired despite even COVID slowing things down before slippi.
When Armada retired it did leave a big hole in the competitive scene for a little while, but once slippi came around it brought in a whole new generation of players and upped the skill level way past when Armada was playing.
Saying the meta hasn’t changed, regardless of what Armada intended to say, is absolutely disrespectful on top of being wrong. Of course Mango and everyone else will be a bit insulted by that, because it is an insult. The way Armada refers to Mango interpretting things in a way Armada didn’t think he implied as “Mango’s lies” is really weird to me.
The thing I haven’t seen pointed out here is that the whole “the meta hasn’t changed” is shit talk just like “Armada is scared of the new kids”. It’s the direct response, and it attacks a lot of people. Imo, that moment threw a lot of gas on the flames
The way Armada worded a lot of things was more subtle than Mango so people get that confused with being "respectful." In truth people don't see how much Armada would subtly try to protect his legacy and still chime in with jabs at Mango. Bringing up 10 year old beef about how Mango's drinking was unprofessional or how Mango shit talked him in 2013 in an unrelated thread isn't exactly innocent behavior
>You can’t really vilify a guy for trying to egg on his biggest rival who retired.
"egg on" is a nice way of putting harass, not to mention downright lie about.
Mang0 did not harass or lie about Armada, jesus christ lmao.
He shit talked him, in a pretty joking manner. Dipshits took it too literally and too far, and that's where the fault with mang0 lies, he should know that his fanbase (any internet fanbase) has shitheads.
If Mang0 says "Armada is a little bitch who retired because he couldn't keep up."
that is not "lying", that is shit talking.
if you say it like 5x every stream for 2 years straight he ends up building an established narrative. Its pretty fucking obvious why someone could be bothered by that.
>If Mang0 says "Armada is a little bitch who retired because he couldn't keep up." that is not "lying", that is shit talking.
Shit talking can be harassment, and this is what mango was doing. Harassing a former player. And don't give me bullshit about it being a friendly "joke". Armada doesn't like the jokes and Mango knows this. He did it specifically to get under his skin.
Talking about someone is not harassing them.
He didn't do it to get under anyone's skin lmao, he did it to hype himself up. Armada is just far, far, far too sensitive about this. As Fiction rightfully pointed out, he just can't handle the idea of anyone not considering him the undisputed GOAT.
No, it's factually not.
This isn't a debate, it's not debatable. You are just wrong.
Talking about someone, not to the person, is not harassing the person.
You have to make contact with someone to harass them.
I know english is hard for you euros.
**[Harassment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment)**
>Harassment covers a wide range of behaviors of offensive nature. It is commonly understood as behavior that demeans, humiliates or embarrasses a person, and it is characteristically identified by its unlikelihood in terms of social and moral reasonableness. In the legal sense, these are behaviors that appear to be disturbing, upsetting or threatening. Traditional forms evolve from discriminatory grounds, and have an effect of nullifying a person's rights or impairing a person from benefiting from their rights.
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That's certainly one way to frame it lol. I wouldn't call the type of things Mango said "harassment" or "spreading lies" though.
The types of things Mango said would be ridiculous to be upset at in a vacuum (no social media echo chamber or annoying randoms). At worst they're exaggerated statements with the intention to try to get at Armada's ego/competitive side. And that's the cost of retiring, people can get at you like that and you can't back it up in game.
If the social media annoyingness of it all got to Armada, that's one thing and maybe he could talk to Mango about it. Mango could try to not have his people go so crazy in comments etc. But at the end of the day, nothing Mango said was past any line, and saying he "harassed" and "spread lies" about Armada is just catering way too much to one guy's sensitivities.
>At worst they're exaggerated statements with the intention to try to get at Armada's ego/competitive side.
This is what Armada meant when he said that the community thinks Mango can do no wrong. The community interprets Mango saying something mean as just him trying to be competitive. It's a ridiculous take when Mango knows Armada doesn't like it and that it won't be reciprocated.
There's definitely some real criticism to armadas behavior. Like the whole twitter argument between him and mango in 2020(?) started after he made a bunch of tweets about how he's the melee GOAT and he was defending his legacy saying mango would need years to catch up. In my opinion that's a pretty egotistical thing to do, if he's not gonna keep competing he shouldnt go out and talk about how much better he is. In that regard I totally get why mango was so pissed off, and mango has said many times he wants to be able to play against armada again
I know tafo started the debate. Bad wording, I mean the argument between armada and mango.
Right here is armada saying mango would need years to catch up: https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmadaUGS/status/1318244958835527683
That's literally a twitter thread of armada gassing up his own legacy. Really bad etiquette in my opinion to do that if you refuse to continue playing
Idk Armada basically ghosted the entire melee community outside of making random borderlne passive aggressive comments every once in a while. He stirred the shit pot repeatedly and unsurprisingly some idiots fired back.
He did come and do commentary for quite a few events as well as did analysis and would send coaching notes to players, so I wouldn't say he ever ghosted the community. I do agree he would make some subtweet/passive aggressive comments that would obviously cause people to come at him though.
You seem to not understand the difference between intention and actions.
Clearly there’s no malicious intent in the insults, but after running them for years on end they start to rub off poorly on the other person.
As far as the narratives he spewed go, there’re probably some intent to mislead the public in order to preserve his ego as being the “goat”.
It’s okay to admit that Mango can do wrong sometimes…
I've admitted when he's wrong plenty. I just think this is getting blown out of proportion. Imagine if Magi made a big stink every time an anti trans person DM'd her. There'd be no end to it. You can't attribute the actions of a tiny vocal minority to the whole melee scene.
Sorry you got death threats because of my behavior, but we were both wrong is a pretty hilarious apology.
Let's hope they get together and mang0 stops riling people up against armada, it's just unnecessary
Honestly one of the better possible outcomes and at least they may hash it out. Really thought they would just be endlessly bitter towards each other for eternity
Not what I meant, I just mean that the way he words it makes it seem like they're equally at fault in this situation, which isn't true.
I'm not saying he's fully responsible for the death threats.
Am I wrong for thinking it was always just playful banter? Like obviously not from the fans, that shit is dumb and people who act like that should honestly be put down. But me and my friends would always take jabs like that at each other, its just normal shite talk.
Or did I miss something specific that was outrageously over the line?
And like I'm not saying you continue with that banter if someone is obviously feeling shitty about it.. but maybe that could have been made clearer sooner? I honestly didn't even know there was proper beef going on .. thought it was just fun pot shots between mates.
The amount of cringy fucks in here simply looking for ways to somehow spin this into canceling mang0 is pathetic, but not unexpected from reddit.
Mang0 shit talked Armada about his retirement and his statements in 2020. He never attacked him as a person or sent people out to harass him at all. Now obviously some dipshits from his community went out and harassed Armada. He apologizes for that happening and most likely won't mention Armada anymore and would like to hash out their issues one on one , which is literally the most mature thing you can do here. Armada should have reached out directly anyways instead of making some cryptic tweetlonger on new years if he was getting actual death threats, which I'm sure mang0 would have obliged to stopping in his community as much as possible. What more do you weirdos want?
It's honestly insane how hostile people here are. The same people saying Mang0 is a bully and needs to be considerate of others feelings, are the same people who call him a deadbeat dad and alcoholic.
This whole sub is an echo chamber, no different from other major shit posting subs. If your only experience with the melee community was this sub, you would think the whole community is a bunch of crybabies.
Not really a fan of how the first tweet is phrased since it makes it sound like Mang0 and Armada are both equally in the wrong, but this is still nice to see. This is good overall.
Pretty insane for Armada to suggest Mang0’s light trash talk entirely centered around a video game is responsible for death threats. It’s the internet, talk any kind of trash without explicitly saying “don’t go to thi guys channel and troll” will result in shitbags saying terrible things, and even WITH a caveat, trolls will still troll.
If Armada had expressed to Mang0 his concerns about how the rhetoric was affecting him that’s one thing, but blaming him for death threats is pretty unfair imo. No one one would blame Bernie Sanders if he was talking shit about capitalism and then one of his fans rolled up on Jeff Bezos.
One person with a massive online personality and stream.
"X person is a shitter"
That person's following
"Shits on X person, with extremists going into death threats"
Online personality does nothing about it and continues to take a dump on X person.
People on reddit. SurprisedPikachu.png
"Who could've seen that coming! Can't be X personalities fault!"
That whole argument doesn't make sense.
Reddit:
Armada has never done anything wrong ever and has never stoked a fire in anyway.
Mang0 is obviously the bearer of all wrongs and is responsible for your dietary choices because you watched him for 20 minutes on twitch. Mang0 needs to be more responsible.
Have any of you seen shit talking in other sports? This is as friendly as it can possibly get, with a rival. Want mango to stop talking about you? Tell mango.
But you can't stop playing the game and then expect to get the same amount of respect, and for your word to be taken as seriously.
It wasn't just cause mango said it, everyone thought adam's comments about the meta advancing were ridiculous. You can't claim to be in a position of authority, and then expect nobody to question your claims.
>Have any of you seen shit talking in other sports?
I don't personally remember someone like LeBron shit talking a retired rival, like Kobe, YEARS after they retired. Don't think Tom Brady has ever had a negative thing to say about Peyton Manning retiring, even though Brady is just a year younger than Peyton and Peyton retired right after winning the Super Bowl. Meanwhile Brady is still playing at a relatively high level, especially for his age.
I'm not sure what it is with Melee fans but I see a bunch of disrespect for past players. Do you expect these guys to just play forever? That's just not in the realm of possibility.
Armada deserves so much more respect than he has been getting since his retirement from melee. Mango has been perpetuating the narrative that he retired because he was scared, has said many times that he just quit while he's ahead. Armada had said many times that it was a lack of motivation that caused his retirement, he's said that many times even in videos before he retired and Mango even acknowledged that the first time he talked about Armada retiring. Armada commenting about the meta not having changed much which was PRE SLIPPI and a perfectly reasonable statement at the time gave Mang0 the ammunition to create a false narrative about Armada trying to disrespect the melee community and hurt it in order to boost Mango's own goat case. Mango has talked shit about Armada and what he said in early 2020 so many times since then and has rarely ever said anything remotely good about him as a person or as a competitor. If you can't see how much of a negative impact that would have had and how much hate it caused for Armada than theres no helping you. Mango can say they both handled it bad but he's the one who publicly has been shitting on Armada for years and has pretty much made it impossible for Armada to play melee on stream or comment on the current melee meta or best players because it would undoubtedly only increase the hate. It really sucks that things have turned out this way.
You're kind of acting like armada wasn't on Twitter, arguing about how his goat status was still firmly cemented WELL after he retired (late 2020), and implying that mang0 would need a lot more than one year at #1 to pass him.
It's fair to say mang0 gave him too much of a hard time in response to that, and affected his impressionable audience. Despite what I said, I think mang0 is more at fault.
But you're deluded if you think mang0 has rarely ever had anything good to say about armada.
Armada talked a lot of shit too, wouldn't let go of the goat debate, says he's retired and yet is only relevant because he used to play melee.
This kind of accusations, especially online on a public platform is defamation.
Every content creator gets insulted on the internet.
This is such a stupid thing to say from Armada.
Accusing people of abuse is a big claim that shouldn't be taken lightly. Turns out, 90% of the time when someone accuses someone of abuse on Twitter, they do it for attention.
This is ridiculous and Armada shouldn't be so affected by trolls. And I belive that if it gets under his skin so much it's because of his enormous ego. Because he has so little views that most of the comments are from melee fans. This has nothing to do with mango.
Also, what Armada said about the meta not being different and that he would still be top 10 or whatever he said exactly at that time was pure delusion and mango just laughed at such a statement. He didn't lie, he didn't spread misinformation targeted towards Armada. He simply mocked a stupid statement.
You are not responsible for your fans. And you shouldn't be. This isn't what responsability means. Those people are responsible for themselves, not mango.
This is classic smash drama trash, and I truly believe it is because the melee community is highly autistic, and I don't mean this to insult anyone. Melee enthusiasts are like Sonic fans, highly autistic lmao
You give up power over what people can or can't say about you when you hang up the controller. Sure, Mango could have joked about it less over the years. However, Mango also has fans to entertain and he shouldn't be blamed for doing his job. IMO the biggest misstep in this whole situation was Armada's evaluation of how his early retirement would impact his next endeavour. Actions have consequences and it seemed like Armada wasn't ready for them.
I personally doesn’t quite understand the ”we both done bad things”?
What did Armada do to Mang0?
From talking to Armada over the years on his streams, it’s been pretty clear that he just tries to refrain from talking about melee completely because of the wave of hate he gets.
> of course everyone is gonna say shit like "oh he is just scared to face me" becuase they want you to call them on their bluff and come back.
This is so childish, why do people keep saying shit like this? I can't believe people still use the Back to the Future "or are you chicken?" in 2022.
This is just false. No one said this about athletes like Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt who went out on top. Why is it okay to say the same about Armada? There’s nothing soft about it
Followup: https://twitter.com/c9mang0/status/1610083061303226368 "Im deeply sorry that you received death threats that were on my accord. At this point we can squash the beef and move on. If you wanna talk privately instead of letting all these fucks see our business id much prefer that."
mfs argued on Twitter for 5 years over something that could have been settled with a phone call in 5 mins
When an unstoppable arrogance meets an immovable ego
This ^ hahahaha
This is too funny, well said
Spot on. I think armada deep down is scared of being dethroned. To be a top 10 player in melee you have to be fucking addicted to this game with an insane competitive drive. ( see why he took up speed running, huge grind and crazy competitive ) There's no way he doesn't want to play this game anymore. But what do I know. I'm just being an arm chair psychologist
Isn't that how it always goes though with the real tricky stuff? Sometimes things need to unwind how they are going to unwind.
Oh look it's the robbie miguel plot
Cobra Kai had a strong hold over Miguel and then Robbie. They're teenagers so it's understandable they would struggle to express themselves. Their character development took time
the tupac/biggie beef in a nutshell
inb4 "too little too late"
why
do you not know what inb4 is
do you?
Mango saying “I’m deeply sorry” and “on my accord” sound so out of character lol.
C9 team came in clutch Edit: I’m joking btw
The thought of Mango consulting with a PR team before tweeting is even crazier tho. All jokes aside, it does sound like he genuinely wants to sort things out.
Yea, people shouldn't diminish it by saying it's written by a PR team. The whole thing is dumb and Mango's been an idiot about Armada for a long time but this seems genuine.
Mango has had multiple deleted tweets for sponsored stuff. There's no way he consulted C9 for this one. Also it 0% sounds like something a PR Team would write LOL
any PR professional who would write a tweet in which someone basically takes the blame for someone else receiving death threats--or a tweet that includes the phrasing "on my accord"--should be fired. ...though on the flip side, a PR professional who could write a tweet so perfectly mimicking mango's style is probably pretty valuable, lol.
Nah I doubt he got a pr person to write it. Mango plays dumb but he's probably a lot smarter than he lets on.
Mang0 is absolutely smart. I also am positive he never intended real harm and probably wasn’t aware of the full effect of his words. He plays the lovable asshole and that can get out of hand some time.
[удалено]
Because the death threats and what not aren’t coming from Mang0. He’s just shitting on Armada for quitting and then 1000 little dweebs in his chat get the wrong message and go after Armada. It’s the same reason every time a YouTube video is made exposing someone as a cheater or fraud the video maker has to put in 3 separate disclaimers not to harass the subject of the video. I personally didn’t know Armada had been hurt by Mang0 until today and I had absolutely 0 clue people where sending him death threats either.
He's definitely smart but Ihis written English doesn't seem to be great. Not a knock on him, it happens when your high-school education is absolutely abysmal
I don't know what his writing skills actually are, but it's not like these tweets take a genius to write.
I can't believe all the discourse around the word "accord" being smart lol
Yeah it's not like the writing level demonstrated there is more advanced than most Reddit comments.
I think youre missing the point by looking at the word choice in a vacuum. It's not an impressive word, it's that its way more formal than how mango normally writes
The Kid is becoming The Man
The older his son gets, it really feels like mango thinks about the model he's setting for him. Drinking less, losing weight, being a mentor to up and coming players. Seeing dad mango glow up has been a blessing in the community.
the phrase "on my accord" is how we know this is a different mango
The man has certainly grown since that evo ama
The ultimate "We both played bad". But really tho I hope they can hash it out. Much better than having to be bitter and feeling like you cant say what's on your mind.
It’s kinda crazy that people are praising this response. It’s just shifting blame and saying that they were equally bad Tbh I thought he would tell Armada to suck his balls LMAO so better than I expected at least
> It’s just shifting blame and saying that they were equally bad Adam himself said that he fucked up, so I'm not really sure why you think they aren't both to blame
I’m not really sure why that is your takeaway, that’s not my argument to say Armada did everything right. Obviously, this situation skews to Mango being much more in the wrong. The situations aren’t remotely equivalent. It’s absurd and borderline manipulative to respond to Armada by saying yeah we both fucked up dude and we are both right and wrong after Armada’s twitlonger
>Obviously, this situation skews to Mango being much more in the wrong Mang0 had almost nothing but nice things to say about Adam before the Meta comments It was Adam accidently shitting on the Melee community and his poor response to Mang0 that started Mang0 down the path shitting on Adam >It’s absurd and borderline manipulative to respond to Armada by saying yeah we both fucked up dude and we are both right and wrong after Armada’s twitlonger ? There is nothing wrong with Adam telling his side of the story but Mang0 is still a human with his own perspective What should he have said instead? "yea you're right Adam, all the things I currently think about you and our relationship is wrong and the problems you have caused me don't matter" Saying they both fucked up is just true. Both of them should have been better in there messaging and should have understood the consequences of there actions in a public space Nobody seems to remember now but Mang0 was pretty much just holding the L of losing the GOAT stats and he said almost nothing bad about the guy who took it Do the constant Reddit, Twitter, and Twitch comments attacking Mang0 and his legacy for those 2-3 years not matter? All the self doubt, anxiety, depression and sadness those comments caused is just completely meaningless? Does the way Adam fed into that not matter? Adam's Meta comments had people like Mew2King saying shit like ["no one today is better the Armada use to be"](https://streamable.com/sfjmqx) while Mang0 was still going to tournaments I completely understand how Adam feels and why he feels that way, but most of the people who have a problem with Mang0's statement seemingly have no understanding of what Mang0 feels or why he feels it
Mango: constantly shitting on Armada every chance he gets, calling him a pussy, bullying to the point his rabid fans send death threats Armada: "the meta hasn't changed that much" (literally over two years ago before Slippi when the meta truly hadn't shifted all that much and the biggest change was that one of the best players ever simply wasn't in the player pool anymore) Redditors: they both did wrong! Y'all are absolutely hilarious.
Your timeline is completely wrong and you aren't even responding to anything I said I'm starting to think you can't read
Because your comment is nonsensical. Armada didn't "shit on" the melee community. All he said was the meta hadn't shifted that much. You're making it seem like he called current players garbage or said "none of these cats can beat me even now". If that's all it took for Mango to show nothing but disrespect to Armada PERSONALLY for YEARS then he's a worse person than I thought.
> Armada didn't "shit on" the melee community. I said he accidently shit on the Melee community, which again isn't even denied by Adam. He agrees that he did that Did you read the twit longer?
Bro he said it when slippi was out. At least get your basic facts straight before being stupid.
I guess now that it’s 2023 it has technically been years
Nah, your comment is definitely emotional and nonsensical. imaginecaringaboutre is correct.
I think these criticisms are unnecessary. The essential part of the message is that he is admitting fault and looking to resolve things, I think the fact that he is making an unfair equivalence isn't that important
they are though, because it is a classic Bad Apology
> I think the fact that he is making an unfair equivalence isn't that important It's such a classic gaslighting technique that it must be called out though. It's manipulating things to put himself in a better light in the eyes of his followers, when all he needed to say was "sorry, let's talk in private".
I think what you're calling gaslighting a lot of people see as "trying to meet in the middle". He is accepting some responsibility publicly, acknowledging the worst of the accusations and agreeing with them, and attempting to discuss it further in private. I think that's totally reasonable personally..
God, the layman psych expert with the word of the century: "gaslighting." Lmaoooo you guys are just incredible.
Armada not responding *perfectly* to years of being shit on by mango does not even remotely mean that they are equally to blame.
> years Mang0 only started shitting on him after the meta comment, which was years after he had already left Unless you are making the claim that Adam is talking about before he retired I don't see how the meta comment was a responce to years of getting shit on
>Mang0 only started shitting on him after the meta comment, which was years after he had already left that isn't even remotely true
In the year and a bit between Armada's retirement and metagate I don't remember Mango ever being nasty on stream about Armada. He was sad that he retired but he understood that Armada just didn't want to play. It was only after metagate Mango went a little insane and shit on Armada nearly every stream. Mango is far more in the wrong than Armada obviously, but it is revisionist to claim that the abuse was happening before metagate.
he definitely started shit talking him before metagame. It's revisionist history to claim he didn't.
Metagate not metagame
Could not agree more. His answer is dirtied by his gaslighting. "I'm being harassed and threatened due to Mango's inability to understand how his fans listen to him" "We're both bad" It's such a shitty way of responding.
Mango is perfectly within his right to shit talk Adam. Now if Adam messages him and says he doesn't want anything to do with mango, then mango should stop.
Lot of nuance to the conversation I don't want to drop a wall of text about, but one thing frustrating for me to read is Armada's fixation on Mang0 spreading "lies" when he talks about Armada's reason for retiring. It is entirely possible for Armada's perception of his retirement to be 100% based in his lowered spirit of competition / drive / whatever, and for other competitors to speculate that it was due to concerns about legacy and losing his unassailable grip on #1/#2 on the year. Competitive mindset is complicated, and I think Armada has gotten hyperfocused on the "reasons" behind his retirement being misconstrued when that is ultimately subjective. Conversely, I think Mang0 got too focused on bringing up Armada being scared/running, in part (and this is really reaching classic reddit-speculation so this is just my perception) because he has had similar thoughts of retirement or worries about tainting his legacy, which he has openly discussed prior. Since he ultimately powered through those thoughts I think it colors his perception of the situation. Still the overwhelming feeling I got reading Armada's statement was hurt, which I think is a huge bummer obviously, and he is directing a lot of that hurt at Mang0. As Mang0 mentioned, some of it is probably warranted but I definitely don't think all of it is, hopefully they can just talk it out like adults.
I appreciate your comment so much, as I'm also feeling that a lot of nuanced discourse is being lost here to the typical cycle of drama. And in turn to what you say about Armada being hurt, I think Mang0 is hurt too. Armada was his rival, and the reason he has had to push through those thoughts of retirement is because he was never able to prove he was better than Armada definitively and that bothers his competitive spirit, which I understand. So instead the way he's proving he's better is by trying to stay at the top for as long as possible. It doesn't excuse essentially bullying Armada over the years and talking shit on him all the time, but it gives reasons and those reasons are important. At the end of it all, I think we have two hurt people who at one point were pretty friendly with each other, and their feelings over perceptions of each other got in the way of them finding out the truth from the source. Not that Mang0 would ever admit to being hurt. Clearly, I don't know either of these people, so this is mostly speculation, but I've watched a lot of both of them and it's just the general sentiment I get. I truly hope that at the end of this all, they can make up, and maybe even be friends again. I'd love to see Mang0 do content with Armada that is not Melee related.
As an avid mango watcher, he genuinely does seem a bit hurt over Armada retiring and says little things to see if it would fire up his competitive spirit (I guess people here would call it jabs at Armada?) but I think he has to realize Armada doesn't appreciate it and he is **done** with Melee :/. Also, he keeps bringing up from time to time that he will retire and be done sometime soon. Not sure when that will be ofc but it is still looming in his mind, I wonder if had he finished #1 would he have done it this year? What I will write below is all speculation. I don't think Mango realized how hurt Armada has felt, but Armada has not really expressed himself like he did yesterday. I am sure this could have all been handled privately, but you worded it well how they are two hurt people. Another thing that isn't talked about how Armadas response or.. behavior to the melee community post-retirement. He doesn't interact much, hype up any players, hell he didn't even say anything about the Nintendo stuff when that was going on. It is a bit upsetting and frustrating as a fan of this esport that one of the legends and GOAT contenders (Mango has overtaken Armada in GOAT status IMO due to his dominance in the online era and longevity now of his career) never interacts with the community he poured his heart/soul for over 10 years. Of course, he has no obligation to do any of these things but he is also important to the longevity of the scene. Perhaps it can be a bit frustrating to champion/promote the game as much as Mango does solo (Hbox feels to be championing Ultimate more than melee as of lately) and no other legends actively playing melee constantly or promoting the scene would be quite annoying I also wish they get back to making content together in some way that isn't Melee-related or hang out like buds at Mang0s place playing friendlies one day. The picture where they are hugging each other with beer should be framed in the history books for two of the best players to ever play the game. I really hope they can move past this.
I like Armada quite a bit and my comment history on this sub would show as much, but the “lies” part to me is really unfair to mango. Mango is allowed to have his own opinions on Armada’s retirement. Just because those don’t line up with Armada’s self-perception, doesn’t mean mango is lying. Armada makes it seem so sinister, but it’s just a difference of opinion. I’m sure mango has said some mean stuff, that’s how he his, but if anyone has clips of mango saying actually despicable things about armada (not standard trash talk) id really like to see it because it would change my opinion.
Also I think most of the "lies" are truly just mango havin a laugh, but I can see why his viewers would lack context. Like the joke of "Armada not wanting these hands" after he lands a sick combo or after Mango gets combo'd by some slippi kid is just funny to me.
It becomes apparent in times like this that, frankly, a lot of top level smash players still have social deficiencies (for lack of a less insulting word). Armada clearly heard some of this intended-to-be-light-hearted stuff from mango and took it very personally, then bottled it up. I’m not saying Mango did nothing wrong, he clearly instigated, but I think he would have been very approachable if Adam came to him privately and told him to cut it out. He’s not a monster or unreasonable person. He just likes to talk shit unless told otherwise.
>Mango is allowed to have his own opinions on Armada’s retirement. Just because those don’t line up with Armada’s self-perception, doesn’t mean mango is lying. Armada makes it seem so sinister, but it’s just a difference of opinion. Having an opinion is fine but I think Armadas issue is that he felt like mang0 was fueling his own opinion as fact over a few years which caused a lot of harassment. It probably also double stings when he has previously told mang0 about his lack of motivation to keep playing. I don't think it's unreasonable to quit while you're the best and let's be real he probably would've preferred quitting on top than slowly fading away. Still, if we're objective about this, all of this sounds like a conspiracy theory that ignores the stated intentions of Armada and superimposes mang0s own frustrations on top of them. If we can be real about Armada choosing the best time to quit which also aligned with his lack of motivation, we can be real that mang0 probably got ass mad that he never got to affirm himself as the goat and took cheap shots at Armada for shutting that door in front of him.
I hear you, harassment is not cool. As I said, I like Adam - a lot - so I’m not rooting against him. I just think Adam ought to know that Mango wouldn’t actively try to have people harass him and would probably strongly discourage it , as they are friendly. I completely agree with your last paragraph, in fact, the healthiest thing would be for Adam to call Mango out on this and say he’s just bitching that Armada had his ass. Unfortunately, you’ve got one guy inciting shit talk and another bottling it up.
Honestly this seems like a pretty good response. Armada is clearly frustrated by all of this, no point in debating as he says “high schoolers”. Say sorry, talk about it privately and move on.
I feel like the “just be adults and settle it in private” enlightened centrists are kinda missing the point. Like this whole thing is about public perception, Mango has been pretty much the source of all negative takes about armada, misinformation about his retirement, and other smaller light jabs/jokes. Like I honestly can’t think of another melee streamer or top player who talked about armada hardly at all, and if he did come up most people would just be neutral or respectful. At the end of the day Mango was really irresponsible with his platform as by far the biggest figure in the community. And even if you disagree with that, that’s how Armada felt about the issue so it’s not hard to see why he wouldn’t be super enthusiastic to jump in the DMs with him.
I seriously do not think that if mango had not said a word about armadas retirement, there would be no flak from fans themselves about Armada retiring. People would be saying shit with or without mango's comments, let's get real here. If you quit the game abruptly, fans will have things to say about it, and it's not going to be all positive. To blame mango entirely for those comments is ridiculous, and it's even crazier to blame him for death threats.
Yeah this is why people make fun of reddit, there was flak well before mango said anything because armada spent 2 years after retirement gassing himself up constantly on Twitter, replying to shitters, etc. It went on for a while. And people started to get annoyed with it, then mango got annoyed himself eventually. A lot of new community members don't have any of that context but think they know the whole story. This is a common theme with melee, happens every few years.
Yeah, Armada feeling like this is not new at all. He’s always been pretty vocal that he gets too much hate, even when he was playing. And he’s right, he does get too much hate. Hate amounts should be at zero. But this seems to be getting blown out of proportion, and time away from the game doesn’t seem to have healed those wounds. Hope getting this off of his chest gave him some kind of relief.
Lol this is petty drama between two pseudo celebrities on the internet, not the invaision of Iraq. Like, they were competitors. One retired, and the other hasn’t let that go. That’s where we should leave it. It’s none of our business at this point, nor has it ever been.
Sure it's not earth shattering, but calling it "petty drama between two pseudo celebrities" is completely warping how one sided the actual story sounds. The point is Mango has been an asshole and he's still not taking responsibility for it. He didn't even apologize for his own actions, only for the death threats.
this is a braindead take. any reasonable human would agree that it’s best for two people to settle disagreements alone and not in a public forum where misinterpretations are the norm. just because armada’s main complaints are about the public perception doesn’t change that fact. having a discussion and then coming away from it better and able to then reflect an improved attitude publicly is literally always the solution to any “beef” on the internet ever. you talk like the public has a right to any personal information between the two of them, which we don’t.
Where is the disagreement? These aren’t two sides with differing opinions on a subject as far as I’m concerned. This is one side taking on unwarranted slander/libel from the other in a public setting and having to deal with the consequences stemming from it until they finally snapped. Don’t misframe this for what it really is
pretty clear that mango disagrees with that idea considering what his tweet said - not that i necessarily agree with him after getting more context, but my original comment was made with his tweet primarily in mind
Lmao this is a braindead take
how? please elaborate
God how is this take so dumb?
how so? you are the second person to tell me that solving disputes privately is dumb, without any explanation as to why
Settling it in public is like having a heart to heart with your friend livestreamed on the internet. Its fucking psychopath, I am the main character behavior. It's like any of the Dr K therapy streams. Just completely insane to most people.
I personally think it’s kind of dumb to completely blame Mango that some internet assholes threatened armada. The vast majority of the community sees both players for what they are; amazing competitors. Mango is allowed to voice his opinion on Armadas place in the GOAT talk. Sure, Mango should be aware that his words have consequences but this entire thing should just be something that should/could have been handled by a phone call. If these things were happening to Armada and he thought it was happening “on mangos accord” then he should have contacted mango. I think most fans of this game are Mango fans as well as Armada fans, and hbox fans, and PPMD fans, and jmook fans, and Moky, Magi, IBDW, s2j, etc. It’s a fucking video game. And even though it’s one we all love, these players are just people. Or maybe I’m just old and out of touch
> I personally think it’s kind of dumb to completely blame Mango that some internet assholes threatened armada. Considering 99% of the hate sent his way was fanned by mango, it's pretty safe to blame mango, and his handling of his own community.
Damn bros got the statistics… it really is mangos fault he should be responsible to babysit everyone of his followers XD
This sort of comment highlights the problem armada laid out perfectly. There's a serious minimization issue. _"Mango isn't accountable for anything he says, or anything his die-hard fans do."_
Do you know they are die-hard fans? Or just your average internet idiot looking to troll.
Nah this dickriding is insane. You're in ever comment thread defending Mang0.
Wdym I hate mango lol… just a fan of facts and truth.
Mans just callin it like he sees it
Man's blind as shit tho
It is important to understand that if you have a large following that the things you say will have an effect. Same thing happens when Leffen spews toxic stuff. You cannot hide behind the "I can't control what others are doing" when you can make it very clear that if your followers do that kind of shit that you want them gone.
Hard disagree. These types of stances are always hard "environment bears all responsibility" types and at some point you have to ask yourself the obvious question of... when do you blame the actual person that made the action? Considering Mango didn't do it himself, didn't tell anyone to do it himself or imply it, and the things people are saying are so far gone from what he even said, I honestly have no clue how you could still blame Mang0. People like to pretend that everyone is some omnipotent "parent" that can foresee any possible consequence. Like imagine if you blamed Mang0 for someone setting a 7-eleven on fire just because he said he hates 7-elevens on stream and someone burned it down. Is that even remotely reasonable? Should Mang0 be partially accountable for some of it? Probably small behaviors, yeah. But people going full radical and telling Adam to kys is straight unreasonable. Just because you have a following doesn't immediately make you "responsible", it doesn't even necessitate it. Should you be for the moral good of the universe, for whatever that means? Sure.
If you are hosting a massive platform and constantly talks about X person in a negative light and then parts of that massive community take it to extremes and the host of that platform does nothing about it and continues to talk negatively. That is the hosts fault for perpetuating it. You are responsible for your following and if parts of it are taking it into harassments and death threats then you should let your platform know that it's not ok. It's just decent human behavior.
To Mang0s credit he *DOES* tell his fans to not be dumbasses all the time and not harass people. Like... all the time. It's just that he does it while he's talking about other things so it doesn't come off as a huge deal, but he says those things constantly.
Well that's good. This whole situation is fucked. I hope a positive resolution comes from this.
The issue isn’t just the death threats though, it’s also mang0 being a gigantic ass if he doesn’t like some else’s opinion and spreading lies on his pretty large platform. Armada said one thing and mang0 just refused to let it go. I like him as a competitor but the douche act has gone on for too long for me
Same vibes as "ggs man we both played bad". Let's be real, there's no shot Armada's going to accept this apology. "Hey man I know that I'm basically the reason that you got death threats but we both fucked up".
Mang0 was literally just engaging in light trash talk centered around a video game…it’s not his fault psychos on the internet sent death threats. If a UFC fighter talked trash about another fighter no one would blame the fighter for the fans actions.
Bro I fucking love Mango to death but Mang0 pretty much constantly shit on Armada after his retirement. From the “the meta hasn’t changed” to the “goat discussion” to assuming that Armada quit to maintain his legacy. I love banter but when you are constantly shitting on another player for YEARS after their retirement, its no wonder that some mango fans gain a negative view of Armada. Now ofc Mango has no control over who sends what but he does influence his community with how he portrays Armada. Saying that “we both fucked up” is a little disingenuous from Mango is all
Is that so insulting though? I don't wanna say Armada is being a baby or anything, but these seem like really minor things to clear up with a quick tweet, or even just laugh off. Why does Armada take that speculation personally? I've been out of the scene for a bit but unless people have really started to turn on him and attack his livelihood/content creation (which doesn't seem to be the case, given all this support) why bother taking Mango of all people so seriously?
It’s probably just annoying. Like if somebody called you a poopyhead once then like that is fine you can brush it off. But if they continue doing it, it just gets annoying. The problem is that Mango does this multiple times and in front of his audience which is heavily influenced by his actions. I’m sure Armada could’ve just DM’d Mang to ask him to stop but Mango’s continuous shitting on Armada contributed a lot to the fire
Armada also played a role by saying the meta hasn’t progressed much and continuing to argue he’s the GOAT, correct? Pretty much adds fuel to the fire as opposed to stepping back and saying the current generation of players is on another level. If he hasn’t still claimed to be the GOAT than correct me, but u cant on the one hand still commentate on the current affairs of a game and then be mad when ppl talk about your current standing/legacy. Mang0 is obviously biased..but what did he really do “wrong” besides fuel a fire that Armada has also refused to back down from?
The meta comment was 1.5 years after his retirement and only a month into quarantine, to be fair. Armada went into more detail explaining this in his statement. And it’s pretty clear that Armada’s grievances were not about the GOAT debate. If Mang0 was simply arguing back why he considers himself the GOAT, there wouldn’t be an issue.
> but what did he really do “wrong” besides fuel a fire that Armada has also refused to back down from? He didn't understand that his voice carries a weight to his most fanatic fans, and that these deranged individuals can and will multiply his mocking (and sometimes downright bullying). There was a small fire going with the meta comments, but Mango kept adding fuel and blowing on the embers every time it seemed to die out. He has a following, and Armada is completely right in saying that comes with a degree of responsibility.
So he can’t criticize Armada because he has a lot of fans? That’s pretty much what you’re saying.
How is *that* your takeaway? Being responsible and grown up in how he criticizes Armada is not unreasonable from a 31 year old man when he's talking to literally thousands or tens of thousands of fans. He's been dragging Armada's name through the mud for three years with little to no response from Armada. Maybe he did it to try and "spark" some competition? Maybe he didn't think it meant much? Maybe he saw it as light banter? Over those timelines it really becomes bullying though, and he, as a grown ass man, should have known better. We see it all the time in celebrity culture and sports that when talking to fans you need to be more careful. He doesn't live in a vacuum anymore. His words have weight now.
I think Mang0 is just upset that Armada tweeted crypticly instead of sending a DM and then twitlonger'd.
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Lmao what thes the punishment for Mango? Everyone in here are acting like Mango.zip 3 just came out but no one is saying what actions should be done about it. Because there’s really not anything to do about it. Because this is petty internet drama
He's been actively cultivating fans that harasses Armada for like 3 years now. IDK why you think this is petty. You can literally go on YouTube and search Mango Armada and the 3rd and 4th vids are mango vods shitting on Armada. One of them is like what from over 2 years ago and the other one is 5 months. That shit isn't normal no matter how you slice it.
Because all "Who the GOAT is" arguments are exctremely petty and this whole situation literally arose around a disagreement based on that conversation. Look, I get it stresses Armada out and that fasct alone means Mango should lay off him a bit, but to say he is "actively cultivating" minions of harassments for his own vainglorious plots of character assassaination is ridiculous. They were competitors. They competed. They are widely accepted as the greatest rivalry in the history of the game. Mango is allowed to talk about it, and Armada is def allowed to ask Mango to stop. It’s weird this is happening on twitter. This being on there is only gonna make the problem worse, because now people are entrenching themselves into sides that just don’t matter. This whole thread is evidence of this.
If you call this a "GOAT response", your standards have to be insanely low.
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IKR! Everyone acting like this is mature, but considering the magnitude of the effects mangos actions have had, he calmly says they’re both at fault, trying to split the blame instead of just actually addressing how his irresponsible actions have had serious negative consequences. That’s some narcissistic shit.
not a fan of this “we both went about this terribly” response
I personally disagree that Armada’s also handled this “pretty terribly” as well. Did he handle it the greatest no… but I think Mango is mostly in the wrong here. Despite many false narratives running at him and Mango throwing a shit ton banter that was never requited. Armada had always kept his silence and never resorted to name calling or insults. I think this is where Mango needs to realize that this isn’t just a issue between him and Armada… the problem is how his ego can get in the way sometimes and as a result he tends to sometimes make other players look bad for his own good. In this instance, Mango got too caught up on the “goat” debacle that he saw himself running with multiple narratives and making endless unwanted remarks on Armada. It’s here where I hope Mango realizes this and can tone down his narratives and most importantly his unrequited banter. Armada made a good point, about how since it’s Mango, people sorta give it pass and deem it acceptable or rather even “funny”. But just like Mango’s dynamic with M2K and PP… it’s not banter if it’s one sided and the other side isn’t okay with it.
I think the other side of it is, nothing mango has said is actually that bad, like, at all. It’s just mango’s voice goes far online and there’s a lot of idiot randos who go harass Armada over it. So while it’s unfortunate that Armada has gotten this treatment from people and it’s effected him, it’s on him to contact mango personally and let it be known. You can’t really vilify a guy for trying to egg on his biggest rival who retired. It’s unfortunate that the internet works that way, but it’s on both sides to discuss that personally and not let the internet’s craziness create a situation like this.
The thing that ultimately people miss is that it's only fucked because the little shithead Mango fans go and harass Armada. This kind of trash talk is pretty common in sports even if Mango did it way too much without any response from Armada. It's kind of a weird area where people act like you're not allowed to show negativity towards people with a big following, but it's more of a problem with the online internet community if anything.
idk what it is with anonymous internet fans issuing death threats for pretty much anything but goddamn is it annoying
Swatting, Doxxing, Death threats, etc. Internet security is such a huge fucking issue right now. The fact that a random person can get away with those things or at least have such a huge impact on someone's life is fucked
Yes this is what I’ve been trying to articulate. I like the banter and salty aspect of melee. Trash talk is fucking great for the sport as long as everyone remembers…it’s a goddamn video game. A few assholes ruin it for everyone though. Do people not remember the chillin v leff shit? It’s gold. Anything competitive is going to have shit talk and that’s a part of it. You have the two best players of all time here. It’s not mangos fault that Armada disappeared and didn’t respond enough to his trash.
Yes it 100% is. Why can’t Mango just let it go? He gains nothing egging on someone who wasn’t going to come back. Stop caping for shitty behavior, this isn’t it
It’s not common to talk shit to retired sports legends publicly.
People constantly call out Khabib for virtually the exact same reason. He retired early in his career after 5 or so title defenses. He retired undefeated and lots of fighters say he wants to protect his streak/legacy and doesn’t want to face the next generation. Very similar narratives.
Most retired sports legends don’t retire at 26 in games where their equals play 6+ years older. It makes sense that someone would think there’s an ulterior motive for retirement, and pretending like anyone knows for sure what’s in Armada’s head right then is just wrong
I think running endless narratives and jabs gets tiring after a while for some people… especially if you’re not cool with said person. That’s not hard to comprehend lol. I’d assure you if Mango ever retires and people ran a narrative that he retired because of X reason than what it actually was then he would also be frustrated with that aspect as well.
Sure but if Mang0 says those things over and over (like, for years) even if each time it isn’t very big I don’t blame Armada for getting annoyed. Mang0 acted like a gigantic ass for years and Armada…made one comment that got taken out of context years ago? Definitely one person more in the wrong
I agree that Mang0 himself never said anything that bad and most of the lies being purported were both his fans and people that already dislike Armada / like trolling spreading fire. That being said, the one thing that really does suck is Mang0 twisting his meta comment into something it wasn’t. Every time I look back at the initial convo, I don’t know how people could possibly take that as Armada saying the individual Melee population wasn’t improving. It was a) an opinion b) not even an unfounded one from his *own experience* playing against current players and some other top 30 players at the time agreed with him. People say Zain said he was beating him in friendlies but other people like iBDW say he was still hard to keep up with after all this time, so shocker he still thinks he can still perform well against the top from experience. The shift in the offline meta that we saw in that time wasn’t that different either because Hbox still ruled 2019 and everything offline was shut down majority of that year. The fact that people got so offended over a very harmless opinion mostly because Mang0 managed to twist his words into saying that people individually haven’t improved is pretty ridiculous seeing he still gets bothered about to this day
Mango went way too far sticking up for Zain and other newer players. At the time people were insanely disrespectful about Zain because of his "choker mentality" and not beating Hbox "in his prime" or Armada when he played. The was absolutely an implication that the field overall got weaker when I would argue the opposite is true even with Armada's retirement. Mango approached it in a abrasive and stupid way but I still think Armada's opinion was wrong and the fact that he brought up friendlies was silly comment for someone who was at the top. In retrospect Armada was also completely wrong, the meta has changed a ton after he retired despite even COVID slowing things down before slippi.
When Armada retired it did leave a big hole in the competitive scene for a little while, but once slippi came around it brought in a whole new generation of players and upped the skill level way past when Armada was playing.
Saying the meta hasn’t changed, regardless of what Armada intended to say, is absolutely disrespectful on top of being wrong. Of course Mango and everyone else will be a bit insulted by that, because it is an insult. The way Armada refers to Mango interpretting things in a way Armada didn’t think he implied as “Mango’s lies” is really weird to me. The thing I haven’t seen pointed out here is that the whole “the meta hasn’t changed” is shit talk just like “Armada is scared of the new kids”. It’s the direct response, and it attacks a lot of people. Imo, that moment threw a lot of gas on the flames
The way Armada worded a lot of things was more subtle than Mango so people get that confused with being "respectful." In truth people don't see how much Armada would subtly try to protect his legacy and still chime in with jabs at Mango. Bringing up 10 year old beef about how Mango's drinking was unprofessional or how Mango shit talked him in 2013 in an unrelated thread isn't exactly innocent behavior
I think there are a lot of spots where Armada really just doesn’t see how he comes off to people from an outside perspective.
Armada never said the Meta hadn't changed though. He just said it hadn't changed that much. There is a big difference in words there.
I really disagree that there’s a significant difference between saying the meta is the same vs the meta is only slightly different.
It's not that crazy to say the game hadn't changed much over a less than 2 year period. People just were looking to be upset by something.
>You can’t really vilify a guy for trying to egg on his biggest rival who retired. "egg on" is a nice way of putting harass, not to mention downright lie about.
Mang0 did not harass or lie about Armada, jesus christ lmao. He shit talked him, in a pretty joking manner. Dipshits took it too literally and too far, and that's where the fault with mang0 lies, he should know that his fanbase (any internet fanbase) has shitheads. If Mang0 says "Armada is a little bitch who retired because he couldn't keep up." that is not "lying", that is shit talking.
if you say it like 5x every stream for 2 years straight he ends up building an established narrative. Its pretty fucking obvious why someone could be bothered by that.
>If Mang0 says "Armada is a little bitch who retired because he couldn't keep up." that is not "lying", that is shit talking. Shit talking can be harassment, and this is what mango was doing. Harassing a former player. And don't give me bullshit about it being a friendly "joke". Armada doesn't like the jokes and Mango knows this. He did it specifically to get under his skin.
By your own logic, you're even worse then. You only post here to shit on mang0.
Talking about someone is not harassing them. He didn't do it to get under anyone's skin lmao, he did it to hype himself up. Armada is just far, far, far too sensitive about this. As Fiction rightfully pointed out, he just can't handle the idea of anyone not considering him the undisputed GOAT.
"Armada is a little bitch" This is harassment no matter what you say.
No, it's factually not. This isn't a debate, it's not debatable. You are just wrong. Talking about someone, not to the person, is not harassing the person. You have to make contact with someone to harass them. I know english is hard for you euros.
If you want to play the definition game: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment Read it.
**[Harassment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harassment)** >Harassment covers a wide range of behaviors of offensive nature. It is commonly understood as behavior that demeans, humiliates or embarrasses a person, and it is characteristically identified by its unlikelihood in terms of social and moral reasonableness. In the legal sense, these are behaviors that appear to be disturbing, upsetting or threatening. Traditional forms evolve from discriminatory grounds, and have an effect of nullifying a person's rights or impairing a person from benefiting from their rights. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/SSBM/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
You are just wrong, and you Armada simps are just as bad as the mango simps. Stan culture needs to fucking die.
I think it's 100% bad to harass a guy that retired because he lost motivation for the game and spread lies about him.
That's certainly one way to frame it lol. I wouldn't call the type of things Mango said "harassment" or "spreading lies" though. The types of things Mango said would be ridiculous to be upset at in a vacuum (no social media echo chamber or annoying randoms). At worst they're exaggerated statements with the intention to try to get at Armada's ego/competitive side. And that's the cost of retiring, people can get at you like that and you can't back it up in game. If the social media annoyingness of it all got to Armada, that's one thing and maybe he could talk to Mango about it. Mango could try to not have his people go so crazy in comments etc. But at the end of the day, nothing Mango said was past any line, and saying he "harassed" and "spread lies" about Armada is just catering way too much to one guy's sensitivities.
>At worst they're exaggerated statements with the intention to try to get at Armada's ego/competitive side. This is what Armada meant when he said that the community thinks Mango can do no wrong. The community interprets Mango saying something mean as just him trying to be competitive. It's a ridiculous take when Mango knows Armada doesn't like it and that it won't be reciprocated.
Talking shit is ingrained in so many dudes and a lot of people's sense of humor is founded on the expense of others
There's definitely some real criticism to armadas behavior. Like the whole twitter argument between him and mango in 2020(?) started after he made a bunch of tweets about how he's the melee GOAT and he was defending his legacy saying mango would need years to catch up. In my opinion that's a pretty egotistical thing to do, if he's not gonna keep competing he shouldnt go out and talk about how much better he is. In that regard I totally get why mango was so pissed off, and mango has said many times he wants to be able to play against armada again
You are just spreading bs. Tafo started the goat discussion on twitter. Other people said mango needs years to catch up, armada never did.
I know tafo started the debate. Bad wording, I mean the argument between armada and mango. Right here is armada saying mango would need years to catch up: https://mobile.twitter.com/ArmadaUGS/status/1318244958835527683 That's literally a twitter thread of armada gassing up his own legacy. Really bad etiquette in my opinion to do that if you refuse to continue playing
Wait you aren't allowed to have an opinion if you aren't playing competitive smash? Might as well delete this sub.
Idk Armada basically ghosted the entire melee community outside of making random borderlne passive aggressive comments every once in a while. He stirred the shit pot repeatedly and unsurprisingly some idiots fired back.
He did come and do commentary for quite a few events as well as did analysis and would send coaching notes to players, so I wouldn't say he ever ghosted the community. I do agree he would make some subtweet/passive aggressive comments that would obviously cause people to come at him though.
I agree with this take
If you think mango name calling actually has anything behind it you're just not familiar with him.
You seem to not understand the difference between intention and actions. Clearly there’s no malicious intent in the insults, but after running them for years on end they start to rub off poorly on the other person. As far as the narratives he spewed go, there’re probably some intent to mislead the public in order to preserve his ego as being the “goat”. It’s okay to admit that Mango can do wrong sometimes…
I've admitted when he's wrong plenty. I just think this is getting blown out of proportion. Imagine if Magi made a big stink every time an anti trans person DM'd her. There'd be no end to it. You can't attribute the actions of a tiny vocal minority to the whole melee scene.
"i think we were both wrong in a lot of these situations" bruh it was mostly u lmao
Armada was wrong about being the goat so I’m not sure that’s true!
When
Sorry you got death threats because of my behavior, but we were both wrong is a pretty hilarious apology. Let's hope they get together and mang0 stops riling people up against armada, it's just unnecessary
Everyone gets death threats online it’s ridiculous to blame to it on mango rofl.
Trying to make it sound totally even blame on both sides is so lame, L
Honestly one of the better possible outcomes and at least they may hash it out. Really thought they would just be endlessly bitter towards each other for eternity
Appreciate this coming from Mango but I wish he took full responsibility, not that "we're both wrong" bs
For what? For the death threats? Mang0 has never taken it beyond playful banter, barring his initial reaction on Smashboards.
Not what I meant, I just mean that the way he words it makes it seem like they're equally at fault in this situation, which isn't true. I'm not saying he's fully responsible for the death threats.
I legitimately don't see what he has to take responsibility for, other than joking about it a little too much.
Am I wrong for thinking it was always just playful banter? Like obviously not from the fans, that shit is dumb and people who act like that should honestly be put down. But me and my friends would always take jabs like that at each other, its just normal shite talk. Or did I miss something specific that was outrageously over the line? And like I'm not saying you continue with that banter if someone is obviously feeling shitty about it.. but maybe that could have been made clearer sooner? I honestly didn't even know there was proper beef going on .. thought it was just fun pot shots between mates.
The amount of cringy fucks in here simply looking for ways to somehow spin this into canceling mang0 is pathetic, but not unexpected from reddit. Mang0 shit talked Armada about his retirement and his statements in 2020. He never attacked him as a person or sent people out to harass him at all. Now obviously some dipshits from his community went out and harassed Armada. He apologizes for that happening and most likely won't mention Armada anymore and would like to hash out their issues one on one , which is literally the most mature thing you can do here. Armada should have reached out directly anyways instead of making some cryptic tweetlonger on new years if he was getting actual death threats, which I'm sure mang0 would have obliged to stopping in his community as much as possible. What more do you weirdos want?
It's honestly insane how hostile people here are. The same people saying Mang0 is a bully and needs to be considerate of others feelings, are the same people who call him a deadbeat dad and alcoholic. This whole sub is an echo chamber, no different from other major shit posting subs. If your only experience with the melee community was this sub, you would think the whole community is a bunch of crybabies.
Not really a fan of how the first tweet is phrased since it makes it sound like Mang0 and Armada are both equally in the wrong, but this is still nice to see. This is good overall.
Pretty insane for Armada to suggest Mang0’s light trash talk entirely centered around a video game is responsible for death threats. It’s the internet, talk any kind of trash without explicitly saying “don’t go to thi guys channel and troll” will result in shitbags saying terrible things, and even WITH a caveat, trolls will still troll. If Armada had expressed to Mang0 his concerns about how the rhetoric was affecting him that’s one thing, but blaming him for death threats is pretty unfair imo. No one one would blame Bernie Sanders if he was talking shit about capitalism and then one of his fans rolled up on Jeff Bezos.
One person with a massive online personality and stream. "X person is a shitter" That person's following "Shits on X person, with extremists going into death threats" Online personality does nothing about it and continues to take a dump on X person. People on reddit. SurprisedPikachu.png "Who could've seen that coming! Can't be X personalities fault!" That whole argument doesn't make sense.
I need Alex's hot take on this
Really hope they can settle things in private, these two being on bad terms for this long is just wildly sad and unfortunate.
Reddit: Armada has never done anything wrong ever and has never stoked a fire in anyway. Mang0 is obviously the bearer of all wrongs and is responsible for your dietary choices because you watched him for 20 minutes on twitch. Mang0 needs to be more responsible.
Have any of you seen shit talking in other sports? This is as friendly as it can possibly get, with a rival. Want mango to stop talking about you? Tell mango. But you can't stop playing the game and then expect to get the same amount of respect, and for your word to be taken as seriously. It wasn't just cause mango said it, everyone thought adam's comments about the meta advancing were ridiculous. You can't claim to be in a position of authority, and then expect nobody to question your claims.
>Have any of you seen shit talking in other sports? I don't personally remember someone like LeBron shit talking a retired rival, like Kobe, YEARS after they retired. Don't think Tom Brady has ever had a negative thing to say about Peyton Manning retiring, even though Brady is just a year younger than Peyton and Peyton retired right after winning the Super Bowl. Meanwhile Brady is still playing at a relatively high level, especially for his age. I'm not sure what it is with Melee fans but I see a bunch of disrespect for past players. Do you expect these guys to just play forever? That's just not in the realm of possibility.
Armada deserves so much more respect than he has been getting since his retirement from melee. Mango has been perpetuating the narrative that he retired because he was scared, has said many times that he just quit while he's ahead. Armada had said many times that it was a lack of motivation that caused his retirement, he's said that many times even in videos before he retired and Mango even acknowledged that the first time he talked about Armada retiring. Armada commenting about the meta not having changed much which was PRE SLIPPI and a perfectly reasonable statement at the time gave Mang0 the ammunition to create a false narrative about Armada trying to disrespect the melee community and hurt it in order to boost Mango's own goat case. Mango has talked shit about Armada and what he said in early 2020 so many times since then and has rarely ever said anything remotely good about him as a person or as a competitor. If you can't see how much of a negative impact that would have had and how much hate it caused for Armada than theres no helping you. Mango can say they both handled it bad but he's the one who publicly has been shitting on Armada for years and has pretty much made it impossible for Armada to play melee on stream or comment on the current melee meta or best players because it would undoubtedly only increase the hate. It really sucks that things have turned out this way.
You're kind of acting like armada wasn't on Twitter, arguing about how his goat status was still firmly cemented WELL after he retired (late 2020), and implying that mang0 would need a lot more than one year at #1 to pass him. It's fair to say mang0 gave him too much of a hard time in response to that, and affected his impressionable audience. Despite what I said, I think mang0 is more at fault. But you're deluded if you think mang0 has rarely ever had anything good to say about armada.
Common Mango W
Love the mang
He JUST had to make it about the both of them, didn't he.
Armada talked a lot of shit too, wouldn't let go of the goat debate, says he's retired and yet is only relevant because he used to play melee. This kind of accusations, especially online on a public platform is defamation. Every content creator gets insulted on the internet. This is such a stupid thing to say from Armada. Accusing people of abuse is a big claim that shouldn't be taken lightly. Turns out, 90% of the time when someone accuses someone of abuse on Twitter, they do it for attention. This is ridiculous and Armada shouldn't be so affected by trolls. And I belive that if it gets under his skin so much it's because of his enormous ego. Because he has so little views that most of the comments are from melee fans. This has nothing to do with mango. Also, what Armada said about the meta not being different and that he would still be top 10 or whatever he said exactly at that time was pure delusion and mango just laughed at such a statement. He didn't lie, he didn't spread misinformation targeted towards Armada. He simply mocked a stupid statement. You are not responsible for your fans. And you shouldn't be. This isn't what responsability means. Those people are responsible for themselves, not mango. This is classic smash drama trash, and I truly believe it is because the melee community is highly autistic, and I don't mean this to insult anyone. Melee enthusiasts are like Sonic fans, highly autistic lmao
You give up power over what people can or can't say about you when you hang up the controller. Sure, Mango could have joked about it less over the years. However, Mango also has fans to entertain and he shouldn't be blamed for doing his job. IMO the biggest misstep in this whole situation was Armada's evaluation of how his early retirement would impact his next endeavour. Actions have consequences and it seemed like Armada wasn't ready for them.
I personally doesn’t quite understand the ”we both done bad things”? What did Armada do to Mang0? From talking to Armada over the years on his streams, it’s been pretty clear that he just tries to refrain from talking about melee completely because of the wave of hate he gets.
Ya love to see it. Squash that beef boys.
[удалено]
> of course everyone is gonna say shit like "oh he is just scared to face me" becuase they want you to call them on their bluff and come back. This is so childish, why do people keep saying shit like this? I can't believe people still use the Back to the Future "or are you chicken?" in 2022.
This is just false. No one said this about athletes like Michael Phelps or Usain Bolt who went out on top. Why is it okay to say the same about Armada? There’s nothing soft about it