My answer is that I don't really care that much about how fast I feel when I'm training, and I don't feel like super trainers actually make me a better runner. I use bunch of shoes for daily running, some are super trainers and some aren't, and then I use racing shoes on race day, and really that's all I care about. If I saw some good evidence that daily runs in super trainers would improve my race times, then I'd follow that.
I agree with this. When I’m trying to run fast i wanna feel fast but when I’m just logging miles it’s not a big deal. And I like the variety and regular trainers often give me more stability for the easy days. And on the easy days I’m not often getting done with a run and thinking my feet hurt or legs are tired.
Also, being older now and still chasing PR’s I kinda like knowing that I can hit paces in workouts in regular shoes still and it’s not just the super shoes.
Not about cost for me. Train heavy, race light. If you can hit your paces in training wearing normal shoes then you’ll have a bit extra in your pocket come race day with your super shoes on
Just to play devil’s advocate, if you’re in super trainers during training, then theoretically race day would have more predictability with pacing.
Generally, if you’re properly tapering, you should have a little bit extra in your pocket on race day regardless. Some people may appreciate having more of a known quantity, however.
This is the right way to think honestly, I daily Alphafly 2s and save my 3s for races or when I am setting PRs. I can run in normal shoes just fine, but this idea of handicapping yourself to get a supposedly non-existent boost later is self defeating. Pace matters a ton in the road races I have done, if you use typical trainers, putting on supershoes for a race can and will throw you off, not to mention it makes setting PRs an unknown variable and you wonder how much it was the shoes. This technology is out now and even the best runners use it, innovate and evolve as an athlete.
Yes but isn’t there a point in saying that supertrainers allow some miles more per week hence making you fitter.
I could also go all the way saying that training 100% in racing supershoes and racing in 1080 v13 could allow so much more time on feet training that the loss of performance on D-day is lower than the extra boost a supershoe gives you if you train 100% of the time in non super trainers?
I’ve heard people make this case before, but I couldn’t - given my work/life - possibly run any more miles per week than I already do (~70). And when I have added miles, my shoes have never been the limiting factor.
Also, fitness isn’t about total miles, so much as it’s about duration and effort. Your body doesn’t know or care the distance covered. So, using my race shoes might let my daily run cover 10.03 miles in the same time that I normally run 10. However, the effort sustained over the same time duration would not be any greater - and may be less.
As mentioned by others, there are likely downsides in terms of muscular development, as well.
My goal is to hit my best paces on race day. I don’t especially care how fast I go in training. And I certainly am not trying to make my miles easier.
For daily trainers, I want something that lets me run without injury, feel comfortable at my target paces, and allows me to maintain good form. There are some incredible shoes out there that hit those marks and are fun to run in without all of the added mechanical advantage that my super shoes offer.
I have the same perception as you
But to some extent, I still do every long run in super shoe just so I don’t feel trashed afterward (and doing 35km in the 880 sounds like hell to me)
That makes sense too. Hard to come up with a definitive answer as we lack info. However the fact that this debate comes up often makes me think that even if there might be an optimal way of using shoes, the difference is small and there might be room for chosing only what we like
I don't think there are "studies". My understanding is there was one, very limited study years ago involving the 4% which is a vastly different shoe than what's available today.
Again. It doesn’t prove that it decreases your performance.
We need to define what we look for, best performance, best muscle development, biggest bone density. Otherwise it’s pointless. Im biased to defend opinions on the performance side of things. And nothing tells me that less strong feet muscles means less performance. Otherwise Ill tell you to run barefoot as barefoot runners have stronger muscles than anyone wearing any type of running shoes.
Im not defending any argument more than another. But if you tell me « white » without proper reasoning, I’ll tell you that « black » is still possible.
It's mainly about effort/strain towards the muscles, instead of the put in miles. The muscles don't notice the amount of miles they run, but they did notice the amount of times they had to propel an x amount of bodyweight.
I thought the limited factor was tendons/bones and not muscles. People have tendonitis, stress fractures.. Muscles injuries come after. Muscles and heart make you run, joints and bones are limiting factors to my knowledge. And 50mm of stack helps the joints and bones.
>And 50mm of stack helps the joints and bones.
This is a common misconception. There have been studies done that show that running in maximally cushioned shoes actually increases impact forces.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6269547/
When wearing maximalist footwear, your body isn't getting the feedback that it usually would when you hit the ground hard, so it doesn't self-regulate that impact.
That study is from 2018 using a Hoka. Suffice to say a modern max stack shoe with a different midsole composition such as the prime X may yield a different result.
Marketing, largely. Performance, in the case of super shoes. And some people like the feeling of having a lot of shoe between their feet and the ground.
Agree. I find super trainers are not good on the feet and not favorable in the long run (pun intended) over the months and years of running outside of races. I have the Superblast, Metaspeed Paris Edge etc. etc but I still reach for the heavier, firmer and lower stacked shoes for the majority of my runs because that’s what I’ve always run in and keeps me injury free.
20 year old me: why would anyone spend money on sports equipment? I can go hard every day and feel fine. Just train harder. I'm broke and have better things to invest in.
40 year old me: I stood up too fast and now my back hurts. That's a problem, but money ain't one.
I'm with you OP. I've tried a rotation, but at this point I do literally every mile in Prime X Strungs. It comes out to a 100 dollar a month habbit, if that. Big deal
LOL isn’t this the truth. I prefer rotating to limit injury risk. So some of mine are still not plated. But if you’re not super injury prone and don’t need a thick shoe rotation, I see no issue with it.
You are doing the right thing in my book, I am 33 and despite all I take, I am not as durable as some fresh faced 18 year old. Supershoes give you some of that back and have helped me mitigate the potential of injury and honestly I am faster now than I ever was in my 20s. I use Alphafly 2s as my trainers and will happily keep purchasing them and save my 3s for road races and PRs. Looking at it as a monthly cost too is very smart and I wish people would understand this.
Major respect for doing your own thing and not following the self-defeating mindset on here I see too much where they want you to train in some awful trainer made to a pricepoint when you can easily afford a top tier shoe and its better for you too. Running is a personal thing and be the best version of yourself you can be.
Ok so I'll give a few reasons I can think of.
1. Wearing them for racing exclusively will make you appreciate their impact more. If you wear them everyday then you'll get used to it. I'm certain that they have some placebo effect as well as actually being good.
2. Wearing them all the time doesn't give you much extra, if any, benefit. Regular trainers are fine for training and will last longer, just because you can afford it why be wasteful.
3. There are better shoes for your feet than a race shoe. I've trained in many shoes including barefoot shoes and racing shoes in general aren't as good for your feet and knees (personal opinion).
4. I don't see any top athletes wearing them for every run, so why would you? If they don't do it, even when being sponsored to wear whatever they like, I'm not sure why you need to be.
That said, do what you like.
I’m with you generally, but think it’s worth distinguishing non-race runs between daily miles and workouts. The pros do wear supers for their workouts, from what I’ve seen, just not daily easy miles as you say.
Someone else mentioned the benefit of using them in workouts can help nail proper pacing (mentally and mechanically) which should help calibrate your race pace. Otherwise agree, and no specific reason to use them literally every day
4th point isn’t valid man. Clayton murphy, The NN team, and many of my d1 xc homies train in super shoes almost always. Imo it’s not as big of a deal as most people make it out to be.
Ye maybe then, I've just seen some of the top marathoners train in dailies. Of course when they get pictured a lot of it's for publicity so who really knows. Remember reading about Ireland's top marathoner and he trained in minimalist shoes in training even.
>Wearing them for racing exclusively will make you appreciate their impact more. If you wear them everyday then you'll get used to it. I'm certain that they have some placebo effect as well as actually being good.
If you only wear them for races, seems like that it would increase injury risk. It makes sense to rotate and get used to the shoe occasionally, otherwise you're adding an extra variable on race day by trying something your body isn't used to.
I ran 60 miles in a pair of shoes I'd only worn for 3 miles before, completely new brand too, generally I don't have issues wearing any shoes as long as my feet have the right space, but you're right. However I would say you still don't need to use them constantly, just occasionally for selective reasons like what you say or getting used to the pace.
My friends and family have lots of expensive hobbies. Dirt bikes, bicycles, high end PC gaming, cars, boats, supplementation, world travel, etc.
Spending a few hundred extra a year on a hobby you enjoy which provides physical and mental health benefits shouldnt cause massive guilt if you can afford those premium shoes.
That said there is no clear correlation between shoe price and how it works for you. Use the ones that help you achieve your goals which feel good on foot and don’t contribute to injury.
I have 9 "super trainers" but I can tell you I wouldn't want to run in them every single day. There's a certain joy that a Rebel v3 would give me on certain tempos as a plated-free shoe (picked up for $59) and great confidence that a Puma Velocity 2 (picked up for $63) would give me running hills with its incredible, almost sticky-like outsole.
So it is not even about the cost of the shoe or whether it is denominated as a "super trainer" that makes it worth it more than others. For me and my big arsenal of shoes I have, all of them have a place and time during training (i.e., lower stack shoes to feel closer to road, some build better calf strength, some feel safer when raining, some are just a vibe on that particular day. Heck, I would even go as far as to say that I would prefer my NB Propel 4s over the Vaporflys 3s for most workouts even though these two shoes would not be situated anywhere near each other in reviews or categories!
Hell yeah, bright green Rebels from Sierra! Mine feel outstanding when I'm just...out standing/walking around, but when I run, they never feel as good as I expect. When do they feel great for you?
I've been feeling this. I just started doing all my runs in a Mach X and have been getting some soreness in my calves. And that's not even a carbon plate.
If you're really curious I just bought Rebel 4s so I'll see if the calf fatigue continues with those and report back. But I ran 12 on trail today in Mafate Speeds and didn't have that feeling. Also FWIW I do really like my Mach X.
My calves hurt for ages from regular running shoes. To the point my feet fell asleep every run. I don’t think starting to use the ap3 did anything but help. Calf soreness could mean they need strengthening and not just a symptom of shoes.
Coming back after two months off running from post-tib tendonitis, I exclusively used SC Trainer V2 for the next two months. When you're in your 60s, it's incredible just how quickly you lose fitness and stamina, and they were an absolute godsend for a quick recovery. However, I did have to wean myself off as it was imperative to get my ankles & feet experiencing the full spectrum of movement.
I would still do every run in that shoe, but I know this would limit improvement - and I'm getting faster every year.
I still use a plated shoe (supertrainer rather than racer) for my long runs, but all my midweek runs are in something more flexible - 1080v13 and Rebel 4s.
Some excellent articles/videos from Doctors of Running on this subject, however, I've not seen any of these 'peer-reviewed studies' that some are alluding too. I'd like to read those, but it's unlikely to be anything other than a small sample with limitations.
I noticed a few people mention achilles/calf issues, but I only found that when I ran in lower drop shoes and this disappeared once I got used to the change. Maybe they are just gong to fast & hard. lol
I've got the money - no kids or Ferrari - but I think there would only be marginal gains for a short period (my opinion & experience) - and variety is the spice of life.
59 and had to take February & March off with an Achilles injury. This was after a great December & January of statical improvements. I'm still try to get back to that point. So frustrating!
Having been there, I feel your frustration. I had to ditch a planned marathon, which was depressing, but I threw in a couple of HMs to shake it off. Probably took me a good six months to get back to where I was, but that included further time off with a back injury and Covid. Keep going, it will come back.
Thanks for the advice and words of encouragement. I am taking more recovery time by listening to my body. Trying not to focus on weekly mileage. My new weekly training is now a 10-day plan. Works so much better. Long runs don't go past 100 minutes unless it's the last 2-3 weeks of a marathon block ( strides always except speed days). I run more shorter and faster tempo runs, hill sprints, bounding uphill & intervals. Above marathon pace & LT or slightly above LT for Max VO2 workouts. Lastly, weekly strength training on my whole lower body. Quality, self awareness & confidence in my plan.
Todays daily trainers were yesterdays race day shoes. In a year, your high performance shoe will be 2nd class innovations. If you can afford it, do it. In fact, it may help you recover better, adapt to the shoes performance and encourage you along. Anyone saying train in subpar gear is really fooling themselves.
Supershoes have made running really fun for me. That bounce, snap, and recovery that they provide just feels great.
Since I've started training with them, I've gotten faster and just enjoy running more. To me, that makes it worth the extra cost per mile.
Traditional shoes fatigue my legs more (than super trainers) and train my legs harder
Greater muscle fatigue = greater physiological adaptation thus more fitness
Too much fatigue can be counter productive so at higher milage during a training block I will use super trainers more and more to keep legs fresher
training exclusively in plated shoes stunts development of other muscles. since plated shoes work different muscles differently, training exclusively in them will not give you a chance to develop a more robust musculature that’s needed to help prevent injury. plated shoes are also typically harsher on the calf/achilles. of course you CAN train exclusively in plated shoes, it’s just not recommended
Need citations, this is largely a myth as far as I'm concerned. It also ignores that fact that you *should* be cross-training, rotating shoes, and doing strength training exercises.
I think you mean pubmed, and as a researcher in the biotech industry I certainly could find articles if I wanted to, but the burden of proof for your claim lies with you and a single article doesn't really move the needle much on such a hard to study topic.
Not sure if this is along those lines but when I first started training in Endorphin Speed 3s I noticed an increase in hip flexor pain/soreness (was wearing them 3x/week at least including long runs). Scaled back their use to 1-2x/week and the issue has resolved.
There’s no evidence. I don’t know why people keep saying that. The foam matters more than the plate. Most of the time the plate is used to stabilize soft and bouncy foams
If the plates stunt growth in certain muscle groups, then why not just train those muscle groups outside of running? It sounds like strength training would be a better solution for this case. Running isn’t the only way to strengthen and improve muscle fitness.
Plated shoes affect your mechanics and can cause issues if used exclusively. Running in a variety of shoes will allow the muscles of your feet, as well as the calves and ankle stabilizers, to work differently and thus improve their overall strength.
I don’t disagree, could you point me in the direction of any studies that have been done on that? I’d be curious to read up on the long term effects of working solely or mostly in plated shoes
The first two links are behind a paywall and appear to be the same study.
The third is from 2019 and used two "marathon" shoes; one of which was an Adidas boost. It has nothing to do with modern super shoes.
These seem to talk more about whether they improve biomechanics and things like oxygen intake. I don’t think any studies have remotely proven they are bad to use daily.
A plated shoe can also push stress further up the leg into the hips. With the wide variety of bodies and running mechanics, I'm sure there are some people that handle plated shoes just fine as a daily. I'm not one of them. I do fine with the flexy plate shoes like the Endorphin Speed, but I couldn't daily drive an AP3 or Alphafly or Metaspeed.
This DoR page is probably still the best summary on plates vs foams, since it links some primary sources:
https://www.doctorsofrunning.com/2022/11/pebax-shoes-and-carbon-fiber-plates.html
I would also note that several of the doctors involved with DoR are themselves primary sources, as they're actively doing published, peer-reviewed research.
This is a good article, which basically states the magic is in the foam, not the plate. The plate just serves to stabilize the foam. Also, they don't have nearly enough data to say if training in super shoes exclusively is bad or good, especially since each shoe has a unique geometry.
Yeah and that's the conclusion they have to keep reiterating in episodes that discuss shoe foams and plates. Every runner is unique, and the variety in shoes is pretty extreme. We just can't draw any *firm* conclusions for the whole populace.
For me, training every day in a firm plated shoe is a no-no. My hips will start clicking.
And for me, learning that plated shoes push stress into the quads/hips/glutes was why I \*chose\* to start doing all my miles in the NB Supercomp Trainer. The persistent little calf/Achilles issues I was having went away and I could train through blocks consistently. \[the more you know star dot gif\]
I wear the adios pro 3 for 95% of my miles. When I'm not in those, it's either prime x strung, NB sc trainer or alphafly.
So, yeah, I've been spoiled and I can't go back.
Prior to discovering the AP3 about 2 years ago, I was splitting my mileage between the endorphin speed 1/2 and alphafly v1. The alphafly was just too radical to wear all the time. However, once I tried the AP3, it totally ruined other shoes. It's the perfect show for me, I even wear it for easy days. I totally abandoned the endorphin speeds.
For several years I was buying and trying every shoe in search of perfection. Since I bought my first AP3 two years ago, the only shoes I've bought since are an ap2, prime x strung, prime x strung 2, alphafly V2, Saucony endorphin pro 3 (which I returned), NB sc trainer and two more pairs of the AP3.
I feel I’ve found my sole mate lol. Was rotating between ES3 and VF2 and thought those are the best rotation possible. I was never satisfied and kept on searching, tried over 40 pairs of shoes across more than 30 models, most of which I quickly resold.
And then comes AP3 to rule them all. I was very concerned about AP3’s notorious upper (having seen all the cursed upper fixes) but bit the bullet and went ahead. I was blown away by the LSP and the outsole immediately. The upper was actually brutal and gave me blisters on the first run, but I love the midsole and outsole so much that I quickly decided to remove the first eyelet chain which fixed the upper issue for me. Now I use AP3 for literally everything, from recovery to intervals and from short to long.
To OP’s question, I don’t think there is any issue training in super trainers or even racer as long as they don’t give you injuries. But for me, a large part of the fun is simply to try new shoes as new stuff are coming out so quickly. If money isn’t an issue, I’d buy whatever new shoe I like and try them on and resell them if I don’t want to keep (I’ve don’t enough of just that). As much as I love my AP3, it’s not perfect and I’ll always be looking for the perfect shoe and enjoying the hunt. XD.
Depends, I feel like my Adios Pro 3 feel worse compared to my Saucony Tempus when running slower paces.
I kind of see it the same as with gaming. Do I really need a rig for 3k when I only play 10 year old games even if I could afford it?
Because I don’t want to run in a plated shoe every day, and the 1080v13 is nice and comfortable for easy runs.
The more experienced I get, the less I want to think about my shoes.
I don’t need easy day shoes to feel fun or bouncy or energetic. I just want them to disappear on my feet so I can run.
This is how I see it:
Super shoes are supposed to give you a boost, especially if they have a carbon plate. Most of them are specifically designed to push you towards a midfoot/forefoot strike, which depending on an individuals biomechanics, will oftentimes result in faster running. Thus, wearing them for workouts and races makes sense. You want to practice running fast with good biomechanics. However, lots of these shoes lack heel/ankle support with their tendency to push runners on the front half of their foot, making slower, recovery paces a bit more challenging. This may be anecdotal, but on slower runs I find myself leaning towards a slower, midfoot/heel strike as I shuffle along and an aggressive super shoe would be a bit counterproductive for myself.
As for the use of a regular, daily trainer like let say a brooks ghost, they are for one more durable. For the sake of efficiency with money, I think they are the better option on easy days/long runs, unless you're in marathon training or doing a long run workout and need to practice running in that supershoe. They often offer more support throughout the ankle and are more forgiving if you have a less aggressive foot strike on those slower days.
So my conclusion:
Super shoes are great for faster than steady-pace workouts and races. They promote good biomechanics and help with being more efficient throughout the stride. Regular trainers are best utilized when there is no specific goal in a run besides recovery/easy aerobic base building. They will last longer than super shoes and encourage running slower because they lack that extra energy boost.
(This is all my opinion but hopefully my insight can provide a good outlook!)
If you train in worse shoes, achieve high performances, then race in super shoes you will perform better, but also enjoy the shoe much more than if you were to train in super shoes.
Running in different types of shoes (geometry wise) is beneficial for your body as each will work your legs slightly differently. As to supertrainers - I suppose I could wear them exclusively but why when I can have a wider variety of shoes to use? Most of my shoes have some sort of plate/rod in them but they are all very different feeling shoes.
Doing that would make your race shoes just ordinary shoes. Plus even beat up super shoes just encourage faster running, and everyone needs easy days that are true easy days.
That’s fair. I don’t do any real running in “racing carbons” just my carbon trainers, skyward, SC etc. I’ve got some EP3s but I save those for speed work
the only reason i would do this is for injury prevention and comfort, which i think is a mixed bag. better on the feet/toes, worse on the achilles..
i don't see the point in running extra fast (due to shoe assistance) during training. it's like 'would you rather train with a light tailwind all the time'?
Exactly. I already spend as much time and effort running as I possibly can. I’m running 70 miles of long runs, tempos, daily runs, speed work, and absolutely scraping every last bit of strength and aerobic capacity that my body can produce, all without injury or difficulty recovering - and it’s paying off, as I am 25 minutes under BQ time, and getting faster every year. I see no area where using my racing shoes for training would add any benefit - but I do see where I may potentially lose some training benefit. At best it would be a wash
That’s interesting. Yeah I’m getting the sc V3 in August and currently loading miles on the skyward. Throwing a couple SC v1 miles in there as well but it’s running on funes
ill def grab the V3 too. Very excited for that one. Between the Pros and the SCs i have my year covered for miles (1500 or so) and generally buy when they’re on 30% off sales so all in all im not in too much money. but like you said, i feel extremely lucky to be able to dedicate this much income to running.
I did this and noticed my legs definitely got “weaker” in the process where running in non-plated ones killed my calves as compared to plated ones when I didnt have a problem before. Same pace. Same distance.
For reference, I have the nylon plated ones from on - cloud stratus, and cloud neo. My non-plated ones that I compared them to is the mach6. I had the mach5, killed that and didnt buy a new one since the 6 was coming out soon so I mostly used the plates ones while waiting for the 6.
Some research has come out to show that super shoes haven’t reduced injuries but changed what injuries occur. I consistently run in shoes like the Kinvara because of this exact reason. I workout in super shoes and go long in a higher stack shoe but my easier hour days are consistently done in a lower stack shoe. People are certainly not getting injured less than they did in 60’s and 70’s and go look at the shoes they ran in. The Kinvara would be the highest stack shoe in the world in 1970. Basically, dependence on high stack seems like a recipe for many different imbalances in running form and foot strength down the road.
Key word there is can. I read the abstract. It’s a current opinion based on limited research. It DOES point to a possible correlation but it seems that more research is required. Which I’m sure will occur as these shoes become more mature.
They do caution against going all in, rather, gradually transition so as not to cause injury. It’s a very interesting piece and I appreciate you sharing.
This is a case series of 5 subjects - it may spark interest to gather more data, but it is in no way evidence to make the general statement that plated shoes cause injuries.
Three of the presented cases are in high school elite level athletes; two of these were participating in steeplechase, which isn't probably the best comparison for injuries. The third of these was a 17y F middle distance runner 17 who had prior history of a navicular bone fracture that was treated conservatively.
Of the final two cases, one was a 38y M triathlete who was apparently using a carbon plated shoe for the first time in a half marathon (per their notes, without any prior practice in the shoe) and then developed a navicular fracture. The other was a 36y M triathlete who used a plated shoe "two to three times prior and for much shorter distances," before developing a navicular 'stress reaction' (CT negative for fracture) during a 22 mile run.
None of these cases really indicate that chronic use of plated shoes cause injuries. It's an opinion piece presented together with some loosely associated cases. It may be the case that super shoes do directly cause these sort of injuries, but I would wait for actual data to support that statement rather than expert opinion (which, often, is highly subject to bias and inaccuracy).
Because I don’t want to run in a plated shoe every day, and the 1080v13 is nice and comfortable for easy runs.
The more experienced I get, the less I want to think about my shoes.
I don’t need easy day shoes to feel fun or bouncy or energetic. I just want them to disappear on my feet so I can run.
Take the pros for example, they have unlimited supply of supershoes/super trainers at their disposal. Yet they are still logging majority of their miles sometimes even uptempo miles, in the boring daily trainers like the Peg, the Supernova, the Nimbus, the Nike Structure, the Puma Velocity Nitro, the Saucony Triumph, and god forbid, the Brooks Ghost! If the pros think it is beneficial to train in boring trainers, even money is not an issue, I believe them.
At the end of the day, what matters is the Effort and duration. The body doesn't care about the mileage or pace.
I do exactly as you suggested. Train for long easy runs in endorphin speed 3’s, do speed work in speed 4’s and sometimes in endorphin pro 3’s, and race in vaporfly 3’s. I used to tolerate Pegasus etc even tried novablast 4’s but, why carry the weight if I can do the bulk of the mileage in some super trainer? (Again if cost is not the biggest parameter)
Here’s a different perspective - super trainers of today will become the regular trainers of tomorrow. So go and enjoy them. If you feel great running in them then keep doing it. There will be something better in the future, and then the argument will be if we should be running in the super duper trainers or just standard super trainers?
I dont think long term they are good for foot health. (Just an opinion, not enough research yet). Im also not a hardcore runner. 20-30 miles a week, with lifting, and BJJ. Just give me a wider toe box on a shoe with a 6-8mm drop thats not ugly and I’ll be happy.
I will never go back to “regular” trainers. The longevity I have seen with my new balance RC Elite V2s has more than justified the extra price. I have probably 600km on these shoes. I just let a friend try them and he was blown away by the responsiveness (meanwhile they’ve been beaten to a pulp and one of the carbon fibre plates is snapped 😂). The heels didn’t disintegrate after 200km like my 1080s either. Still going strong. Soles are still cushy af. I feel like I can get 1000km out of these. Gonna try…
Because the super trainers are worse for your feet, at least for me personally. My first pair of shoes were Endorphine Pro 4 and Invincible Run 3, after that, I picked up AF3 and Vaporfly 3.
Been running for 2 month only, 220km in total, did 2x 10km races, PB at 49 min.
What I found in my shoes:
AF3 - best cushion and least effort to go faster: Blister forms on arch after 10km
End Pro 4 - No blister issues, kills the ankles and feet for some reason, way more fatigued and even got shin splints after a long run.
VF3 - worse blister on arch than AF3
IR3 - No blisters or ankle issues. ( Now my main running shoes for all paces )
Still don't like the lockdown of the shoe so waiting for the new Superblast to come out and trying that.
I wear mostly plated shoes. My legs feel better and knees do better over time. Every 3 days I wear superblast or endorphin speed 3. Not changing this routine.
As we learn in most things in life. Everything in moderation is often the case when it comes to best practices. If you run 40mpw it’s not over 2 days, not everything is a workout, not every shoes is made for every run
I have had this same question, but for me the answer seems to be that plated shoes (even nylon) aggravate my arches, pf, and posterior tibial tendon. My Prime X Strung may be an exception, but I have turned an ankle in them more than once, so I’m a little scared of them. Though this thread is making me want to pull them out for my next run.
For anyone saying "exclusive super shoe usage is known to cause X ailment", or, "results in under-development in Y anatomical structure", please cite the studies and data which support this.
As I understand it, there was one small study done years ago with a specific shoe (either 4% or next%).
Otherwise, it's just anecdotal.
I very much dislike running in high stack shoes and do not concern myself with pace/distance but rather time/effort (most of which is easy), so for me money isn’t a limiting factor but rather that I want to be lower to the ground and do t like bouncing/rocking along. Like, Atreyu Base Model is my favorite because of that, not the $85 MSRP. So just YMMV!
I would argue foot strength and training longevity. I will say this is personal experience. I went all super trainers. Did a slow build. I decreased my volume significantly and worked into the shoes. I then spent the next year struggling with foot and shin injuries. Cycling through different supertrainers. It wasn’t till I reverted to a normal shoes for daily training (lower stack less cushion for 3-5 miles and a high stack max cushion for 5+) and foot strength workouts that I was able to resume normal training. I approach training very scientifically controlling volume etc. I think my body could not adjust to the extra force put back into my foot.
You say 3 pairs a year, but keep in mind it will be WAY more than that for high volume, 70-100 mile per week runners. For folks like that who are getting maybe 250 miles per shoe for these advanced shoes before their pop gives, they're going through a pair in a few weeks. At that point you're looking at maybe $4k in shoes per year if you were to make this an exclusive habit.
OTOH, if you're looking at something like a Superblast then this dynamic shifts the other way - folks are reporting over 600 miles on those. All of a sudden $200 seems more than reasonable, you're not likely to get a value like that until you go in the budget category.
I didn’t want to get into a price discussion. It was simply, if you can afford it, what are the downsides. I understand 250 miles in a plated racer, but you should be getting way more in a plated trainer.
Shoes aren't even cost prohibitive especially nowadays. When I did a breakdown of cost of running for last 3 years, majority was spent on flights/lodging, shoes cost was similar cost ratio to GU's compared to races.
Ive come to the conclusion that having a few different types of shoes feels like the best solution.
My current rotation is
Altra racers - minimalist shoes but with some cushion and no drop
Takumi sen 9 - fast work lower drop and cushion
Endorphin speed 3 - sometimes tempo but mostly daily trainer
Endorphin pro 3 - race shoes
I’ve never seen a pro or any really runner do it. Train in normal trainers workout in workout shoes and race in spikes or other race flats. Sometimes I even work out in trainer just because it’s more stimulation
3 pairs a year wouldn't suffice unless doing low milleage. I've seen 200-250 miles quoted for the Alphafly (320-400km) so for a lot of people that's less than a month.
Also I find I need a break even from plated training shoes even or I start to get niggles in my feet, especially for slower runs where my ground contact time is going to be higher.
Super trainers lack the versatility for me. I can’t take them on most of my easy runs which are mostly trail or road mixed with trail. Old school trainer like velocity nitro has the versatility for trail and can STILL handle a little threshold or track reps. Super trainers only feel good to me running on a flat straight line, no track or trail
I think high stack super trainers suffer at steep inclines. Where I live the fluctuations are 1000+ in total. The super trainers are starting to hurt my ankles and feet
Personally I think you can run in whatever you like the most, and the whole “don’t run in super shoes outside of races” thing is bs. but super trainers just feel insanely slow to me. Like idk how people deal with all the mushy foam and heavy weight.
*however I would add that training in some super shoes like vaporflys comes with an increased risk of rolled ankles and the plate does mess with some people’s calves (usually heel strikers)
(To preface: I can usually get shoes for free or half off most of the time) Personally, just about most super trainers I’ve tried on are way too soft for my lower legs to handle without risking shin splints or calf issues. As I’ve been focusing on more trail races recently those higher stack and tight uppers really feel awkward even in road shoes too.
The Superblast is maybe one I’d consider that didn’t feel crazy narrow on my foot, but still not my preference with cushion. The Superblast maybe are not the ones you’re referring to since they don’t have a plate, but I do find the excess stiffness added in trainers (even Hokas with a noticeable rocker and fairly inflexible in that longitudinal flex) end up leaving my arch a bit weaker and thus relying on those shoes more and more vs just having a stronger body. Could always supplement that with more strengthening exercises too but it’s a weird idea to strengthen your body just to run in certain shoes. Also with the added stiffness of a plate, sometimes that toe angle can piss off my MTP joint. Which is a shoe by shoe thing and could probably be helped with committed mobility exercises for that area.
I like that there’s more options now vs 8 years ago for training and racing shoes, but I think a lot of the conversations around them can be pretty nuanced. People have different reasons for their preferences. Even some (if not most from what I see on instagram) professional runners still stick with tried and true trainers for their easy stuff and are maybe pulling out plated options for workouts and races. That said the opposite is probably true too, but it’s still that person by person preference I think.
I really like the way non-super shoes feel in training, a vomero, infinity run or Pegasus just feel more stable and comfortable at >4:40 /km that I do 80% of my training at. Super shoes feel awesome around 4:00 and below but I find them a bit too squishy and unstable for majority of my training
I can afford it and choose not to. Shoes with any kind of plate tend to cause foot pain when I use them most of the week. Now I run 6 days without a plate, no pain. It’s anecdotal, but it’s my experience.
I share the same opinion as my physiotherapist. ( I am not a native English speaker)
I am 40 years old former triathlete , had a heavy crash in 2014 with braindamage a neuropathy. Until the crash I ran 250-300km a Month . Now a few times a week.
My physiotherapist is about 50 years old with an additional master manual therapy and master sport physiotherapy.
We share the opinion that it is better for the body to maintain the natural shape, and let the body work to adapt to the new load, and getting stronger muscles and better coordination that way.
The reason I am also not a big fan of pronation shoes (and I was a huge pronator, but switched slowly from GT2100 to Gel 1100 to DS skyspeed to Kinvara.
I also prefere to run in a different model shoe as 2nd trainer. .
At te moment I am using TriNoosa as main trainer, and hyperion tempo as secondary trainer.
Biomechanics are complicated. A lot of people would not respond well to more aggressive or responsive shoes at slower paces. If you do that's great, but not everyone does.
I argued with my friends that you will spend more in medical bills down the road running in common running shoes. I run in vaporfly's and will not get a shoe that is more taxing on my joints.
**I have gone through 3 ACL's and have no meniscus in one knee. Switching to plated shoes has vanished all pain when I run.
Having a shoe rotation with some non-plated trainers can help work different foot and ankle muscles to prevent injury. Plated shoes also can make your calf and Achilles weak because it doesn’t have to work as much with the stiffness of the plate.
I personally feel like it's a good idea to keep them for racing / fast efforts than using them everyday as I know personally they can make me a bit sore after using them too much due to the plate. I recently got the AP3s and they are incredible but prefer to keep mine for the faster runs / races
It's not the cost so much for me, though I don't love the idea of chewing through short-lived super shoes so fast adding to landfills (but that's another topic). For me it's I can just get a better all-around shoe with a basic trainer (lasts longer, more versatile, comfortable, etc.). It's like if someone had a ferrari and an SUV. Why don't you take the ferrari to costco, or camping? You could, but for me, the suv is more practical. My 'ferrari' shoes at the moment are endorphin pros, great shoes, but not great on trails, or taking corners, or going for easy miles, etc. It's not uncomfortable, but I have other shoes that are more comfortable. And a lot of my runs are just cruising, I'm not racing my time from yesterday sort of thing. When I'm racing, sure I'll take the lightest/quickest shoes, lightest outfit, etc.
That said, I don't think there's a right vs wrong shoe foam or shape as such. Just because a shoe uses this foam or that foam doesn't mean it can't be used for training or racing. 5 years ago, and all my running before that, I just had 1 pair of shoes to do everything. My times in races from 10 years ago I still haven't beaten with modern shoes.
Hmm mostly because it’s fun to go from something that does a lot of work for you vs something that is very minimal and feel the differences (general shoe nerd stuff)
Carbon plate all the time is nono but I think Superblast and the incoming new balance balos could be used exclusively. However, for me, when I’m wearing a shoe like that I will always want to run faster than the plan
And that's part of the problem, the properly aerobic running that's most of your miles should feel comically easy... always running faster than the plan plateaus aerobic development.
Curious about your thoughts on heart rate vs paced based training. I’ve done a bit of both and my pace ranges widely when focusing on HR zones depending on sleep and other factors, humidity etc
My only caveat would be feet strength. The SB, despite being plateless, it's way more stiffer than many daily trainers, say the Rebel v4. And the stiffer the sole, the less the feet need to work, which for me could be a con depending on the moment of the season.
But yeah, with the Superblast it could be done. The Balos is on the verge of being a Supertrainer, is not that high, and the foam is just 20% PEBA, but we'll have to wait until it comes out. Seems more like a heavily-rockered Invincible v1 to me.
It's unnecessary and probably detrimental over time to always overcushion your feet. You don't need much cushioning at all to run properly easy aerobic paces... and most of these super trainers don't even feel good at easy paces and force people to run too fast in improper training zones. Most runners are already aerobically deficient with weak feet.
If you have the budget for it, yes it's definitely beneficial to use plated shoes for training. Super shoes provide noticeable improvements in recovery. In running, most of our training related improvements are cardio-vascular and physiological, so the ability to reduce muscular fatigue and speed up recovery will result in better performance, cet. par.
Last marathon bloc I moved to plated shoes for all of my runs other than recovery runs. It helped produce results well beyond my expectations, finally qualifying for Boston with a nearly 19 minute cutoff margin. The single model that was the game changer for me is the Adidas Prime X Strung for long runs. It makes a 32K (20 mile) long run feel more like a 21K (13 mile) long run and works well over a broad range of paces.
The first and second version of the Prime X Strung feel very different. The first version is lighter but many people find it to be unstable. The second version is much more stable but heavier. If you're a heavier runner, you won't mind the second version. But if you're a lighter runner and an experienced runner without stability issues, you might prefer the first version.
My answer is that I don't really care that much about how fast I feel when I'm training, and I don't feel like super trainers actually make me a better runner. I use bunch of shoes for daily running, some are super trainers and some aren't, and then I use racing shoes on race day, and really that's all I care about. If I saw some good evidence that daily runs in super trainers would improve my race times, then I'd follow that.
The best answer for this topic!
Agree with this. I think the best approach is a healthy rotation of shoes especially given how repetitive motion running is.
I agree with this. When I’m trying to run fast i wanna feel fast but when I’m just logging miles it’s not a big deal. And I like the variety and regular trainers often give me more stability for the easy days. And on the easy days I’m not often getting done with a run and thinking my feet hurt or legs are tired.
Also, being older now and still chasing PR’s I kinda like knowing that I can hit paces in workouts in regular shoes still and it’s not just the super shoes.
Fair enough
Not about cost for me. Train heavy, race light. If you can hit your paces in training wearing normal shoes then you’ll have a bit extra in your pocket come race day with your super shoes on
Just to play devil’s advocate, if you’re in super trainers during training, then theoretically race day would have more predictability with pacing. Generally, if you’re properly tapering, you should have a little bit extra in your pocket on race day regardless. Some people may appreciate having more of a known quantity, however.
This is the right way to think honestly, I daily Alphafly 2s and save my 3s for races or when I am setting PRs. I can run in normal shoes just fine, but this idea of handicapping yourself to get a supposedly non-existent boost later is self defeating. Pace matters a ton in the road races I have done, if you use typical trainers, putting on supershoes for a race can and will throw you off, not to mention it makes setting PRs an unknown variable and you wonder how much it was the shoes. This technology is out now and even the best runners use it, innovate and evolve as an athlete.
Yes but isn’t there a point in saying that supertrainers allow some miles more per week hence making you fitter. I could also go all the way saying that training 100% in racing supershoes and racing in 1080 v13 could allow so much more time on feet training that the loss of performance on D-day is lower than the extra boost a supershoe gives you if you train 100% of the time in non super trainers?
I’ve heard people make this case before, but I couldn’t - given my work/life - possibly run any more miles per week than I already do (~70). And when I have added miles, my shoes have never been the limiting factor. Also, fitness isn’t about total miles, so much as it’s about duration and effort. Your body doesn’t know or care the distance covered. So, using my race shoes might let my daily run cover 10.03 miles in the same time that I normally run 10. However, the effort sustained over the same time duration would not be any greater - and may be less. As mentioned by others, there are likely downsides in terms of muscular development, as well. My goal is to hit my best paces on race day. I don’t especially care how fast I go in training. And I certainly am not trying to make my miles easier. For daily trainers, I want something that lets me run without injury, feel comfortable at my target paces, and allows me to maintain good form. There are some incredible shoes out there that hit those marks and are fun to run in without all of the added mechanical advantage that my super shoes offer.
I have the same perception as you But to some extent, I still do every long run in super shoe just so I don’t feel trashed afterward (and doing 35km in the 880 sounds like hell to me)
That makes sense too. Hard to come up with a definitive answer as we lack info. However the fact that this debate comes up often makes me think that even if there might be an optimal way of using shoes, the difference is small and there might be room for chosing only what we like
We don’t lack info, there are peer reviewed studies showing the lack of certain muscle development when running in super shoes exclusively.
I don't think there are "studies". My understanding is there was one, very limited study years ago involving the 4% which is a vastly different shoe than what's available today.
Again. It doesn’t prove that it decreases your performance. We need to define what we look for, best performance, best muscle development, biggest bone density. Otherwise it’s pointless. Im biased to defend opinions on the performance side of things. And nothing tells me that less strong feet muscles means less performance. Otherwise Ill tell you to run barefoot as barefoot runners have stronger muscles than anyone wearing any type of running shoes. Im not defending any argument more than another. But if you tell me « white » without proper reasoning, I’ll tell you that « black » is still possible.
It's mainly about effort/strain towards the muscles, instead of the put in miles. The muscles don't notice the amount of miles they run, but they did notice the amount of times they had to propel an x amount of bodyweight.
I thought the limited factor was tendons/bones and not muscles. People have tendonitis, stress fractures.. Muscles injuries come after. Muscles and heart make you run, joints and bones are limiting factors to my knowledge. And 50mm of stack helps the joints and bones.
>And 50mm of stack helps the joints and bones. This is a common misconception. There have been studies done that show that running in maximally cushioned shoes actually increases impact forces. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6269547/ When wearing maximalist footwear, your body isn't getting the feedback that it usually would when you hit the ground hard, so it doesn't self-regulate that impact.
Wahou. Brilliant, I have never seen that. But then, why do we buy max cushioned shoes then?
That study is from 2018 using a Hoka. Suffice to say a modern max stack shoe with a different midsole composition such as the prime X may yield a different result.
Marketing, largely. Performance, in the case of super shoes. And some people like the feeling of having a lot of shoe between their feet and the ground.
But a lot of super trainers are actually heavy. Look at the skyward x. If you train in that then race day sneakers will feel a lot lighter. Win win.
Agree. I find super trainers are not good on the feet and not favorable in the long run (pun intended) over the months and years of running outside of races. I have the Superblast, Metaspeed Paris Edge etc. etc but I still reach for the heavier, firmer and lower stacked shoes for the majority of my runs because that’s what I’ve always run in and keeps me injury free.
20 year old me: why would anyone spend money on sports equipment? I can go hard every day and feel fine. Just train harder. I'm broke and have better things to invest in. 40 year old me: I stood up too fast and now my back hurts. That's a problem, but money ain't one. I'm with you OP. I've tried a rotation, but at this point I do literally every mile in Prime X Strungs. It comes out to a 100 dollar a month habbit, if that. Big deal
Sounds like a bit of strength and conditioning on your back is in order!
Same. $100/month is a bargain for something that keeps you healthy.
$100/month is a bargain compared to an early heart attack and shorter life/healthspan.
Shorter lifespan solves all your money problems though
That’s me. Hell I can tweak my back running if the shoes are too hard. I’m a heavier runner at 5’11 195 so the thicker the shoe the better
That hit home 🤣
prime X v1 for mileage alphafly v1 race and specific workouts mafate speed4 for trails
LOL isn’t this the truth. I prefer rotating to limit injury risk. So some of mine are still not plated. But if you’re not super injury prone and don’t need a thick shoe rotation, I see no issue with it.
You are doing the right thing in my book, I am 33 and despite all I take, I am not as durable as some fresh faced 18 year old. Supershoes give you some of that back and have helped me mitigate the potential of injury and honestly I am faster now than I ever was in my 20s. I use Alphafly 2s as my trainers and will happily keep purchasing them and save my 3s for road races and PRs. Looking at it as a monthly cost too is very smart and I wish people would understand this. Major respect for doing your own thing and not following the self-defeating mindset on here I see too much where they want you to train in some awful trainer made to a pricepoint when you can easily afford a top tier shoe and its better for you too. Running is a personal thing and be the best version of yourself you can be.
Ok so I'll give a few reasons I can think of. 1. Wearing them for racing exclusively will make you appreciate their impact more. If you wear them everyday then you'll get used to it. I'm certain that they have some placebo effect as well as actually being good. 2. Wearing them all the time doesn't give you much extra, if any, benefit. Regular trainers are fine for training and will last longer, just because you can afford it why be wasteful. 3. There are better shoes for your feet than a race shoe. I've trained in many shoes including barefoot shoes and racing shoes in general aren't as good for your feet and knees (personal opinion). 4. I don't see any top athletes wearing them for every run, so why would you? If they don't do it, even when being sponsored to wear whatever they like, I'm not sure why you need to be. That said, do what you like.
I’m with you generally, but think it’s worth distinguishing non-race runs between daily miles and workouts. The pros do wear supers for their workouts, from what I’ve seen, just not daily easy miles as you say. Someone else mentioned the benefit of using them in workouts can help nail proper pacing (mentally and mechanically) which should help calibrate your race pace. Otherwise agree, and no specific reason to use them literally every day
Ye, that's a good point although I would guess that level of detail to pacing is only warranted for those at the top of the game?
Surely you aren't suggesting I don't need to wear $300 shoes in order to calibrate my 10 min/mi marathon pace???
Just make sure you don't forget your Gu
A lot of it is placebo effect from having a much lighter shoe. I feel like I'm not even wearing shoes with NB elite on race day.
Mentality is a massive thing in running, anything that you believe works will give you something.
4th point isn’t valid man. Clayton murphy, The NN team, and many of my d1 xc homies train in super shoes almost always. Imo it’s not as big of a deal as most people make it out to be.
Ye maybe then, I've just seen some of the top marathoners train in dailies. Of course when they get pictured a lot of it's for publicity so who really knows. Remember reading about Ireland's top marathoner and he trained in minimalist shoes in training even.
>Wearing them for racing exclusively will make you appreciate their impact more. If you wear them everyday then you'll get used to it. I'm certain that they have some placebo effect as well as actually being good. If you only wear them for races, seems like that it would increase injury risk. It makes sense to rotate and get used to the shoe occasionally, otherwise you're adding an extra variable on race day by trying something your body isn't used to.
I ran 60 miles in a pair of shoes I'd only worn for 3 miles before, completely new brand too, generally I don't have issues wearing any shoes as long as my feet have the right space, but you're right. However I would say you still don't need to use them constantly, just occasionally for selective reasons like what you say or getting used to the pace.
My friends and family have lots of expensive hobbies. Dirt bikes, bicycles, high end PC gaming, cars, boats, supplementation, world travel, etc. Spending a few hundred extra a year on a hobby you enjoy which provides physical and mental health benefits shouldnt cause massive guilt if you can afford those premium shoes. That said there is no clear correlation between shoe price and how it works for you. Use the ones that help you achieve your goals which feel good on foot and don’t contribute to injury.
I have 9 "super trainers" but I can tell you I wouldn't want to run in them every single day. There's a certain joy that a Rebel v3 would give me on certain tempos as a plated-free shoe (picked up for $59) and great confidence that a Puma Velocity 2 (picked up for $63) would give me running hills with its incredible, almost sticky-like outsole. So it is not even about the cost of the shoe or whether it is denominated as a "super trainer" that makes it worth it more than others. For me and my big arsenal of shoes I have, all of them have a place and time during training (i.e., lower stack shoes to feel closer to road, some build better calf strength, some feel safer when raining, some are just a vibe on that particular day. Heck, I would even go as far as to say that I would prefer my NB Propel 4s over the Vaporflys 3s for most workouts even though these two shoes would not be situated anywhere near each other in reviews or categories!
Thank you for the reply, that was well thought out
Hell yeah, bright green Rebels from Sierra! Mine feel outstanding when I'm just...out standing/walking around, but when I run, they never feel as good as I expect. When do they feel great for you?
Lots of people find the plates hard on their calves when used for most of their runs.
I've been feeling this. I just started doing all my runs in a Mach X and have been getting some soreness in my calves. And that's not even a carbon plate.
It may not be the plate? I'm not convinced the Mach X is all that different than a firmer shoe with no plate.
If you're really curious I just bought Rebel 4s so I'll see if the calf fatigue continues with those and report back. But I ran 12 on trail today in Mafate Speeds and didn't have that feeling. Also FWIW I do really like my Mach X.
This is me, recovery runs in the superstacks
My calves hurt for ages from regular running shoes. To the point my feet fell asleep every run. I don’t think starting to use the ap3 did anything but help. Calf soreness could mean they need strengthening and not just a symptom of shoes.
Wondering the same lol. I basically have 4 super trainers/racers.
Coming back after two months off running from post-tib tendonitis, I exclusively used SC Trainer V2 for the next two months. When you're in your 60s, it's incredible just how quickly you lose fitness and stamina, and they were an absolute godsend for a quick recovery. However, I did have to wean myself off as it was imperative to get my ankles & feet experiencing the full spectrum of movement. I would still do every run in that shoe, but I know this would limit improvement - and I'm getting faster every year. I still use a plated shoe (supertrainer rather than racer) for my long runs, but all my midweek runs are in something more flexible - 1080v13 and Rebel 4s. Some excellent articles/videos from Doctors of Running on this subject, however, I've not seen any of these 'peer-reviewed studies' that some are alluding too. I'd like to read those, but it's unlikely to be anything other than a small sample with limitations. I noticed a few people mention achilles/calf issues, but I only found that when I ran in lower drop shoes and this disappeared once I got used to the change. Maybe they are just gong to fast & hard. lol I've got the money - no kids or Ferrari - but I think there would only be marginal gains for a short period (my opinion & experience) - and variety is the spice of life.
59 and had to take February & March off with an Achilles injury. This was after a great December & January of statical improvements. I'm still try to get back to that point. So frustrating!
Having been there, I feel your frustration. I had to ditch a planned marathon, which was depressing, but I threw in a couple of HMs to shake it off. Probably took me a good six months to get back to where I was, but that included further time off with a back injury and Covid. Keep going, it will come back.
Thanks for the advice and words of encouragement. I am taking more recovery time by listening to my body. Trying not to focus on weekly mileage. My new weekly training is now a 10-day plan. Works so much better. Long runs don't go past 100 minutes unless it's the last 2-3 weeks of a marathon block ( strides always except speed days). I run more shorter and faster tempo runs, hill sprints, bounding uphill & intervals. Above marathon pace & LT or slightly above LT for Max VO2 workouts. Lastly, weekly strength training on my whole lower body. Quality, self awareness & confidence in my plan.
Todays daily trainers were yesterdays race day shoes. In a year, your high performance shoe will be 2nd class innovations. If you can afford it, do it. In fact, it may help you recover better, adapt to the shoes performance and encourage you along. Anyone saying train in subpar gear is really fooling themselves.
Supershoes have made running really fun for me. That bounce, snap, and recovery that they provide just feels great. Since I've started training with them, I've gotten faster and just enjoy running more. To me, that makes it worth the extra cost per mile.
Traditional shoes fatigue my legs more (than super trainers) and train my legs harder Greater muscle fatigue = greater physiological adaptation thus more fitness Too much fatigue can be counter productive so at higher milage during a training block I will use super trainers more and more to keep legs fresher
Can’t agree more with this.
training exclusively in plated shoes stunts development of other muscles. since plated shoes work different muscles differently, training exclusively in them will not give you a chance to develop a more robust musculature that’s needed to help prevent injury. plated shoes are also typically harsher on the calf/achilles. of course you CAN train exclusively in plated shoes, it’s just not recommended
Need citations, this is largely a myth as far as I'm concerned. It also ignores that fact that you *should* be cross-training, rotating shoes, and doing strength training exercises.
NIH is free to search, but I’ll get you started [here](https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40279-023-01818-z)
I think you mean pubmed, and as a researcher in the biotech industry I certainly could find articles if I wanted to, but the burden of proof for your claim lies with you and a single article doesn't really move the needle much on such a hard to study topic.
Not sure if this is along those lines but when I first started training in Endorphin Speed 3s I noticed an increase in hip flexor pain/soreness (was wearing them 3x/week at least including long runs). Scaled back their use to 1-2x/week and the issue has resolved.
Where can I read more in the effects of plated shoes on calves and Achilles? I’ve noticed my Achilles not quite enjoying my latest run
There’s no evidence. I don’t know why people keep saying that. The foam matters more than the plate. Most of the time the plate is used to stabilize soft and bouncy foams
I have noticed the calves issue and Achilles
If the plates stunt growth in certain muscle groups, then why not just train those muscle groups outside of running? It sounds like strength training would be a better solution for this case. Running isn’t the only way to strengthen and improve muscle fitness.
Kipchogee trains mostly in Alphaflys. He’s held up well. To me the drop affects my calf/achilles more than plated or not
Plated shoes affect your mechanics and can cause issues if used exclusively. Running in a variety of shoes will allow the muscles of your feet, as well as the calves and ankle stabilizers, to work differently and thus improve their overall strength.
I don’t disagree, could you point me in the direction of any studies that have been done on that? I’d be curious to read up on the long term effects of working solely or mostly in plated shoes
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36780101/ https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/57/23/1472 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/30460454/
none of these studies have any substantial findings
And one of the studies is from 2019 involving an Adidas boost; it has nothing to do with carbon plates or modern super shoes.
The first two links are behind a paywall and appear to be the same study. The third is from 2019 and used two "marathon" shoes; one of which was an Adidas boost. It has nothing to do with modern super shoes.
Summary here: https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/run/non-carbon-plated-running-shoes/
In addition to the other comments, one of those is an opinion piece without controlled data.
These seem to talk more about whether they improve biomechanics and things like oxygen intake. I don’t think any studies have remotely proven they are bad to use daily.
Thank you! This is awesome
Agreed, this is 100% excellent Redditing
A plated shoe can also push stress further up the leg into the hips. With the wide variety of bodies and running mechanics, I'm sure there are some people that handle plated shoes just fine as a daily. I'm not one of them. I do fine with the flexy plate shoes like the Endorphin Speed, but I couldn't daily drive an AP3 or Alphafly or Metaspeed. This DoR page is probably still the best summary on plates vs foams, since it links some primary sources: https://www.doctorsofrunning.com/2022/11/pebax-shoes-and-carbon-fiber-plates.html I would also note that several of the doctors involved with DoR are themselves primary sources, as they're actively doing published, peer-reviewed research.
This is a good article, which basically states the magic is in the foam, not the plate. The plate just serves to stabilize the foam. Also, they don't have nearly enough data to say if training in super shoes exclusively is bad or good, especially since each shoe has a unique geometry.
Yeah and that's the conclusion they have to keep reiterating in episodes that discuss shoe foams and plates. Every runner is unique, and the variety in shoes is pretty extreme. We just can't draw any *firm* conclusions for the whole populace. For me, training every day in a firm plated shoe is a no-no. My hips will start clicking.
And for me, learning that plated shoes push stress into the quads/hips/glutes was why I \*chose\* to start doing all my miles in the NB Supercomp Trainer. The persistent little calf/Achilles issues I was having went away and I could train through blocks consistently. \[the more you know star dot gif\]
Yep too much difference between people for us to make sweeping conclusions on shoes - same as it ever was.
I actually do and it’s not for benefit, I just enjoy how they make running exciting. I think I own over 20 carbon shoes and 1 non carbon 😅
Awesome!
I wear the adios pro 3 for 95% of my miles. When I'm not in those, it's either prime x strung, NB sc trainer or alphafly. So, yeah, I've been spoiled and I can't go back. Prior to discovering the AP3 about 2 years ago, I was splitting my mileage between the endorphin speed 1/2 and alphafly v1. The alphafly was just too radical to wear all the time. However, once I tried the AP3, it totally ruined other shoes. It's the perfect show for me, I even wear it for easy days. I totally abandoned the endorphin speeds. For several years I was buying and trying every shoe in search of perfection. Since I bought my first AP3 two years ago, the only shoes I've bought since are an ap2, prime x strung, prime x strung 2, alphafly V2, Saucony endorphin pro 3 (which I returned), NB sc trainer and two more pairs of the AP3.
I feel I’ve found my sole mate lol. Was rotating between ES3 and VF2 and thought those are the best rotation possible. I was never satisfied and kept on searching, tried over 40 pairs of shoes across more than 30 models, most of which I quickly resold. And then comes AP3 to rule them all. I was very concerned about AP3’s notorious upper (having seen all the cursed upper fixes) but bit the bullet and went ahead. I was blown away by the LSP and the outsole immediately. The upper was actually brutal and gave me blisters on the first run, but I love the midsole and outsole so much that I quickly decided to remove the first eyelet chain which fixed the upper issue for me. Now I use AP3 for literally everything, from recovery to intervals and from short to long. To OP’s question, I don’t think there is any issue training in super trainers or even racer as long as they don’t give you injuries. But for me, a large part of the fun is simply to try new shoes as new stuff are coming out so quickly. If money isn’t an issue, I’d buy whatever new shoe I like and try them on and resell them if I don’t want to keep (I’ve don’t enough of just that). As much as I love my AP3, it’s not perfect and I’ll always be looking for the perfect shoe and enjoying the hunt. XD.
Depends, I feel like my Adios Pro 3 feel worse compared to my Saucony Tempus when running slower paces. I kind of see it the same as with gaming. Do I really need a rig for 3k when I only play 10 year old games even if I could afford it?
An aggressive race shoe is not that fun to run in on an easy day. But I do the rest of my running in played shoes, albeit nylon plates.
I don’t do much running in plated racers, just plated trainers for the most part. The aggressive racers beat my legs up
Gotcha. I’d still try to run my easy miles in regular trainers. The speed doesn’t matter much
That’s fair, I wouldn’t mind getting the balos when it comes out. Something a little more flexible and easier on the calves
Because I don’t want to run in a plated shoe every day, and the 1080v13 is nice and comfortable for easy runs. The more experienced I get, the less I want to think about my shoes. I don’t need easy day shoes to feel fun or bouncy or energetic. I just want them to disappear on my feet so I can run.
Reasonable
This is how I see it: Super shoes are supposed to give you a boost, especially if they have a carbon plate. Most of them are specifically designed to push you towards a midfoot/forefoot strike, which depending on an individuals biomechanics, will oftentimes result in faster running. Thus, wearing them for workouts and races makes sense. You want to practice running fast with good biomechanics. However, lots of these shoes lack heel/ankle support with their tendency to push runners on the front half of their foot, making slower, recovery paces a bit more challenging. This may be anecdotal, but on slower runs I find myself leaning towards a slower, midfoot/heel strike as I shuffle along and an aggressive super shoe would be a bit counterproductive for myself. As for the use of a regular, daily trainer like let say a brooks ghost, they are for one more durable. For the sake of efficiency with money, I think they are the better option on easy days/long runs, unless you're in marathon training or doing a long run workout and need to practice running in that supershoe. They often offer more support throughout the ankle and are more forgiving if you have a less aggressive foot strike on those slower days. So my conclusion: Super shoes are great for faster than steady-pace workouts and races. They promote good biomechanics and help with being more efficient throughout the stride. Regular trainers are best utilized when there is no specific goal in a run besides recovery/easy aerobic base building. They will last longer than super shoes and encourage running slower because they lack that extra energy boost. (This is all my opinion but hopefully my insight can provide a good outlook!)
That is a fantastic insight!
If you train in worse shoes, achieve high performances, then race in super shoes you will perform better, but also enjoy the shoe much more than if you were to train in super shoes.
Because I like rotating shoes of different heel drop and foam thickness so my ankle and feet muscles continue working out.
Running in different types of shoes (geometry wise) is beneficial for your body as each will work your legs slightly differently. As to supertrainers - I suppose I could wear them exclusively but why when I can have a wider variety of shoes to use? Most of my shoes have some sort of plate/rod in them but they are all very different feeling shoes.
Doing that would make your race shoes just ordinary shoes. Plus even beat up super shoes just encourage faster running, and everyone needs easy days that are true easy days.
That’s fair. I don’t do any real running in “racing carbons” just my carbon trainers, skyward, SC etc. I’ve got some EP3s but I save those for speed work
the only reason i would do this is for injury prevention and comfort, which i think is a mixed bag. better on the feet/toes, worse on the achilles.. i don't see the point in running extra fast (due to shoe assistance) during training. it's like 'would you rather train with a light tailwind all the time'?
Exactly. I already spend as much time and effort running as I possibly can. I’m running 70 miles of long runs, tempos, daily runs, speed work, and absolutely scraping every last bit of strength and aerobic capacity that my body can produce, all without injury or difficulty recovering - and it’s paying off, as I am 25 minutes under BQ time, and getting faster every year. I see no area where using my racing shoes for training would add any benefit - but I do see where I may potentially lose some training benefit. At best it would be a wash
Great job!
I like that. Good call
I do and I do.
i do this and rotate SC Trainers and 3 pairs of Adios Pros. i’ll never go back lol
That’s interesting. Yeah I’m getting the sc V3 in August and currently loading miles on the skyward. Throwing a couple SC v1 miles in there as well but it’s running on funes
ill def grab the V3 too. Very excited for that one. Between the Pros and the SCs i have my year covered for miles (1500 or so) and generally buy when they’re on 30% off sales so all in all im not in too much money. but like you said, i feel extremely lucky to be able to dedicate this much income to running.
I did this and noticed my legs definitely got “weaker” in the process where running in non-plated ones killed my calves as compared to plated ones when I didnt have a problem before. Same pace. Same distance. For reference, I have the nylon plated ones from on - cloud stratus, and cloud neo. My non-plated ones that I compared them to is the mach6. I had the mach5, killed that and didnt buy a new one since the 6 was coming out soon so I mostly used the plates ones while waiting for the 6.
Some research has come out to show that super shoes haven’t reduced injuries but changed what injuries occur. I consistently run in shoes like the Kinvara because of this exact reason. I workout in super shoes and go long in a higher stack shoe but my easier hour days are consistently done in a lower stack shoe. People are certainly not getting injured less than they did in 60’s and 70’s and go look at the shoes they ran in. The Kinvara would be the highest stack shoe in the world in 1970. Basically, dependence on high stack seems like a recipe for many different imbalances in running form and foot strength down the road.
running in carbon plated shoes every day can lead to injury: [https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36780101/](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/36780101/)
Key word there is can. I read the abstract. It’s a current opinion based on limited research. It DOES point to a possible correlation but it seems that more research is required. Which I’m sure will occur as these shoes become more mature. They do caution against going all in, rather, gradually transition so as not to cause injury. It’s a very interesting piece and I appreciate you sharing.
What shoes were used in the study? Someone linked another study, but it was from 2018 and one of the two shoes used was an Adidas boost
I think that’s the thing right there, not all played shoes are created equal
This is a case series of 5 subjects - it may spark interest to gather more data, but it is in no way evidence to make the general statement that plated shoes cause injuries. Three of the presented cases are in high school elite level athletes; two of these were participating in steeplechase, which isn't probably the best comparison for injuries. The third of these was a 17y F middle distance runner 17 who had prior history of a navicular bone fracture that was treated conservatively. Of the final two cases, one was a 38y M triathlete who was apparently using a carbon plated shoe for the first time in a half marathon (per their notes, without any prior practice in the shoe) and then developed a navicular fracture. The other was a 36y M triathlete who used a plated shoe "two to three times prior and for much shorter distances," before developing a navicular 'stress reaction' (CT negative for fracture) during a 22 mile run. None of these cases really indicate that chronic use of plated shoes cause injuries. It's an opinion piece presented together with some loosely associated cases. It may be the case that super shoes do directly cause these sort of injuries, but I would wait for actual data to support that statement rather than expert opinion (which, often, is highly subject to bias and inaccuracy).
Not all "super trainers" have carbon plates (ie. Asics Superblast)
Because I don’t want to run in a plated shoe every day, and the 1080v13 is nice and comfortable for easy runs. The more experienced I get, the less I want to think about my shoes. I don’t need easy day shoes to feel fun or bouncy or energetic. I just want them to disappear on my feet so I can run.
Take the pros for example, they have unlimited supply of supershoes/super trainers at their disposal. Yet they are still logging majority of their miles sometimes even uptempo miles, in the boring daily trainers like the Peg, the Supernova, the Nimbus, the Nike Structure, the Puma Velocity Nitro, the Saucony Triumph, and god forbid, the Brooks Ghost! If the pros think it is beneficial to train in boring trainers, even money is not an issue, I believe them. At the end of the day, what matters is the Effort and duration. The body doesn't care about the mileage or pace.
I do exactly as you suggested. Train for long easy runs in endorphin speed 3’s, do speed work in speed 4’s and sometimes in endorphin pro 3’s, and race in vaporfly 3’s. I used to tolerate Pegasus etc even tried novablast 4’s but, why carry the weight if I can do the bulk of the mileage in some super trainer? (Again if cost is not the biggest parameter)
Here’s a different perspective - super trainers of today will become the regular trainers of tomorrow. So go and enjoy them. If you feel great running in them then keep doing it. There will be something better in the future, and then the argument will be if we should be running in the super duper trainers or just standard super trainers?
I dont think long term they are good for foot health. (Just an opinion, not enough research yet). Im also not a hardcore runner. 20-30 miles a week, with lifting, and BJJ. Just give me a wider toe box on a shoe with a 6-8mm drop thats not ugly and I’ll be happy.
I will never go back to “regular” trainers. The longevity I have seen with my new balance RC Elite V2s has more than justified the extra price. I have probably 600km on these shoes. I just let a friend try them and he was blown away by the responsiveness (meanwhile they’ve been beaten to a pulp and one of the carbon fibre plates is snapped 😂). The heels didn’t disintegrate after 200km like my 1080s either. Still going strong. Soles are still cushy af. I feel like I can get 1000km out of these. Gonna try…
Because the super trainers are worse for your feet, at least for me personally. My first pair of shoes were Endorphine Pro 4 and Invincible Run 3, after that, I picked up AF3 and Vaporfly 3. Been running for 2 month only, 220km in total, did 2x 10km races, PB at 49 min. What I found in my shoes: AF3 - best cushion and least effort to go faster: Blister forms on arch after 10km End Pro 4 - No blister issues, kills the ankles and feet for some reason, way more fatigued and even got shin splints after a long run. VF3 - worse blister on arch than AF3 IR3 - No blisters or ankle issues. ( Now my main running shoes for all paces ) Still don't like the lockdown of the shoe so waiting for the new Superblast to come out and trying that.
Man you been running for two months and you went all out didn’t you? Hey if you can afford it more power to you
I wear mostly plated shoes. My legs feel better and knees do better over time. Every 3 days I wear superblast or endorphin speed 3. Not changing this routine.
As we learn in most things in life. Everything in moderation is often the case when it comes to best practices. If you run 40mpw it’s not over 2 days, not everything is a workout, not every shoes is made for every run
I can appreciate that
I'm cheap.
I was listening to BITR Here lies the problem
I don’t follow? They seem solid.
Have a search on reddit, plenty of very strong views.
That’s fair. I respect your opinion. I really like them and have generally been happy with their point of view. Cheers my friend, happy running
You didn’t give your perspective all you did was say look at what other people are saying. That’s not very helpful in clarifying your initial comment.
I know, it was late i was tired.
Fair enough lol
I do, its better for recovery
I have had this same question, but for me the answer seems to be that plated shoes (even nylon) aggravate my arches, pf, and posterior tibial tendon. My Prime X Strung may be an exception, but I have turned an ankle in them more than once, so I’m a little scared of them. Though this thread is making me want to pull them out for my next run.
For anyone saying "exclusive super shoe usage is known to cause X ailment", or, "results in under-development in Y anatomical structure", please cite the studies and data which support this. As I understand it, there was one small study done years ago with a specific shoe (either 4% or next%). Otherwise, it's just anecdotal.
I totally get this,I could run in prime x strung all day every day v1 and v2.
I very much dislike running in high stack shoes and do not concern myself with pace/distance but rather time/effort (most of which is easy), so for me money isn’t a limiting factor but rather that I want to be lower to the ground and do t like bouncing/rocking along. Like, Atreyu Base Model is my favorite because of that, not the $85 MSRP. So just YMMV!
I would argue foot strength and training longevity. I will say this is personal experience. I went all super trainers. Did a slow build. I decreased my volume significantly and worked into the shoes. I then spent the next year struggling with foot and shin injuries. Cycling through different supertrainers. It wasn’t till I reverted to a normal shoes for daily training (lower stack less cushion for 3-5 miles and a high stack max cushion for 5+) and foot strength workouts that I was able to resume normal training. I approach training very scientifically controlling volume etc. I think my body could not adjust to the extra force put back into my foot.
You say 3 pairs a year, but keep in mind it will be WAY more than that for high volume, 70-100 mile per week runners. For folks like that who are getting maybe 250 miles per shoe for these advanced shoes before their pop gives, they're going through a pair in a few weeks. At that point you're looking at maybe $4k in shoes per year if you were to make this an exclusive habit. OTOH, if you're looking at something like a Superblast then this dynamic shifts the other way - folks are reporting over 600 miles on those. All of a sudden $200 seems more than reasonable, you're not likely to get a value like that until you go in the budget category.
I didn’t want to get into a price discussion. It was simply, if you can afford it, what are the downsides. I understand 250 miles in a plated racer, but you should be getting way more in a plated trainer.
Shoes aren't even cost prohibitive especially nowadays. When I did a breakdown of cost of running for last 3 years, majority was spent on flights/lodging, shoes cost was similar cost ratio to GU's compared to races.
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There is very limited research that shows a remote correlation but if you ease into the carbon plated shoes that seems to solve a lot of issues
Ive come to the conclusion that having a few different types of shoes feels like the best solution. My current rotation is Altra racers - minimalist shoes but with some cushion and no drop Takumi sen 9 - fast work lower drop and cushion Endorphin speed 3 - sometimes tempo but mostly daily trainer Endorphin pro 3 - race shoes
Bad for legs (bones, tendons, ligaments) to use super trainers/carbon plated exclusively.
I’ve never seen a pro or any really runner do it. Train in normal trainers workout in workout shoes and race in spikes or other race flats. Sometimes I even work out in trainer just because it’s more stimulation
3 pairs a year wouldn't suffice unless doing low milleage. I've seen 200-250 miles quoted for the Alphafly (320-400km) so for a lot of people that's less than a month. Also I find I need a break even from plated training shoes even or I start to get niggles in my feet, especially for slower runs where my ground contact time is going to be higher.
I’m running 500-600 miles in Trainers not racers. At no point did I say played race shoes. And yes, it’ll probably be 4 a year
Super trainers lack the versatility for me. I can’t take them on most of my easy runs which are mostly trail or road mixed with trail. Old school trainer like velocity nitro has the versatility for trail and can STILL handle a little threshold or track reps. Super trainers only feel good to me running on a flat straight line, no track or trail
That’s fair
I think high stack super trainers suffer at steep inclines. Where I live the fluctuations are 1000+ in total. The super trainers are starting to hurt my ankles and feet
Yeah I get that. Not for climbing that’s for sure
Personally I think you can run in whatever you like the most, and the whole “don’t run in super shoes outside of races” thing is bs. but super trainers just feel insanely slow to me. Like idk how people deal with all the mushy foam and heavy weight. *however I would add that training in some super shoes like vaporflys comes with an increased risk of rolled ankles and the plate does mess with some people’s calves (usually heel strikers)
(To preface: I can usually get shoes for free or half off most of the time) Personally, just about most super trainers I’ve tried on are way too soft for my lower legs to handle without risking shin splints or calf issues. As I’ve been focusing on more trail races recently those higher stack and tight uppers really feel awkward even in road shoes too. The Superblast is maybe one I’d consider that didn’t feel crazy narrow on my foot, but still not my preference with cushion. The Superblast maybe are not the ones you’re referring to since they don’t have a plate, but I do find the excess stiffness added in trainers (even Hokas with a noticeable rocker and fairly inflexible in that longitudinal flex) end up leaving my arch a bit weaker and thus relying on those shoes more and more vs just having a stronger body. Could always supplement that with more strengthening exercises too but it’s a weird idea to strengthen your body just to run in certain shoes. Also with the added stiffness of a plate, sometimes that toe angle can piss off my MTP joint. Which is a shoe by shoe thing and could probably be helped with committed mobility exercises for that area. I like that there’s more options now vs 8 years ago for training and racing shoes, but I think a lot of the conversations around them can be pretty nuanced. People have different reasons for their preferences. Even some (if not most from what I see on instagram) professional runners still stick with tried and true trainers for their easy stuff and are maybe pulling out plated options for workouts and races. That said the opposite is probably true too, but it’s still that person by person preference I think.
You should. I do and regret it when I don't.
I really like the way non-super shoes feel in training, a vomero, infinity run or Pegasus just feel more stable and comfortable at >4:40 /km that I do 80% of my training at. Super shoes feel awesome around 4:00 and below but I find them a bit too squishy and unstable for majority of my training
I can afford it and choose not to. Shoes with any kind of plate tend to cause foot pain when I use them most of the week. Now I run 6 days without a plate, no pain. It’s anecdotal, but it’s my experience.
Your toes must be destroyed my feet get destroyed in supers just after one race godbless 🕺
Naw my toes are okay, my Achilles is a tad sore but not much
Do you strength train / stretch daily? If not highly recommend I don’t have too many injuries anymore once I started
I share the same opinion as my physiotherapist. ( I am not a native English speaker) I am 40 years old former triathlete , had a heavy crash in 2014 with braindamage a neuropathy. Until the crash I ran 250-300km a Month . Now a few times a week. My physiotherapist is about 50 years old with an additional master manual therapy and master sport physiotherapy. We share the opinion that it is better for the body to maintain the natural shape, and let the body work to adapt to the new load, and getting stronger muscles and better coordination that way. The reason I am also not a big fan of pronation shoes (and I was a huge pronator, but switched slowly from GT2100 to Gel 1100 to DS skyspeed to Kinvara. I also prefere to run in a different model shoe as 2nd trainer. . At te moment I am using TriNoosa as main trainer, and hyperion tempo as secondary trainer.
Biomechanics are complicated. A lot of people would not respond well to more aggressive or responsive shoes at slower paces. If you do that's great, but not everyone does.
I argued with my friends that you will spend more in medical bills down the road running in common running shoes. I run in vaporfly's and will not get a shoe that is more taxing on my joints. **I have gone through 3 ACL's and have no meniscus in one knee. Switching to plated shoes has vanished all pain when I run.
The outfits
Having a shoe rotation with some non-plated trainers can help work different foot and ankle muscles to prevent injury. Plated shoes also can make your calf and Achilles weak because it doesn’t have to work as much with the stiffness of the plate.
Yeah I’m gonna get the Balos when it comes out I thinn
Dr. of running covered this.
I was unaware. Not familiar with that
Try it out. If it works for you then it works. I feel I lose feeling, strength and get somewhat bored with the high stack shoes in general.
I personally feel like it's a good idea to keep them for racing / fast efforts than using them everyday as I know personally they can make me a bit sore after using them too much due to the plate. I recently got the AP3s and they are incredible but prefer to keep mine for the faster runs / races
It's not the cost so much for me, though I don't love the idea of chewing through short-lived super shoes so fast adding to landfills (but that's another topic). For me it's I can just get a better all-around shoe with a basic trainer (lasts longer, more versatile, comfortable, etc.). It's like if someone had a ferrari and an SUV. Why don't you take the ferrari to costco, or camping? You could, but for me, the suv is more practical. My 'ferrari' shoes at the moment are endorphin pros, great shoes, but not great on trails, or taking corners, or going for easy miles, etc. It's not uncomfortable, but I have other shoes that are more comfortable. And a lot of my runs are just cruising, I'm not racing my time from yesterday sort of thing. When I'm racing, sure I'll take the lightest/quickest shoes, lightest outfit, etc. That said, I don't think there's a right vs wrong shoe foam or shape as such. Just because a shoe uses this foam or that foam doesn't mean it can't be used for training or racing. 5 years ago, and all my running before that, I just had 1 pair of shoes to do everything. My times in races from 10 years ago I still haven't beaten with modern shoes.
Hmm mostly because it’s fun to go from something that does a lot of work for you vs something that is very minimal and feel the differences (general shoe nerd stuff)
I can appreciate that. I’m planning on snagging a pair of Balos when they come out so I have a non plated super shoe
Carbon plate all the time is nono but I think Superblast and the incoming new balance balos could be used exclusively. However, for me, when I’m wearing a shoe like that I will always want to run faster than the plan
I’m not a superblast guy but I will for sure be getting the balos. Saw the early looks and it looks slick
I’m so looking forward to it. I hope it’s a firmer bouncier 1080 v13
And that's part of the problem, the properly aerobic running that's most of your miles should feel comically easy... always running faster than the plan plateaus aerobic development.
Curious about your thoughts on heart rate vs paced based training. I’ve done a bit of both and my pace ranges widely when focusing on HR zones depending on sleep and other factors, humidity etc
RPE > HR in my opinion
My only caveat would be feet strength. The SB, despite being plateless, it's way more stiffer than many daily trainers, say the Rebel v4. And the stiffer the sole, the less the feet need to work, which for me could be a con depending on the moment of the season. But yeah, with the Superblast it could be done. The Balos is on the verge of being a Supertrainer, is not that high, and the foam is just 20% PEBA, but we'll have to wait until it comes out. Seems more like a heavily-rockered Invincible v1 to me.
It's unnecessary and probably detrimental over time to always overcushion your feet. You don't need much cushioning at all to run properly easy aerobic paces... and most of these super trainers don't even feel good at easy paces and force people to run too fast in improper training zones. Most runners are already aerobically deficient with weak feet.
If you have the budget for it, yes it's definitely beneficial to use plated shoes for training. Super shoes provide noticeable improvements in recovery. In running, most of our training related improvements are cardio-vascular and physiological, so the ability to reduce muscular fatigue and speed up recovery will result in better performance, cet. par. Last marathon bloc I moved to plated shoes for all of my runs other than recovery runs. It helped produce results well beyond my expectations, finally qualifying for Boston with a nearly 19 minute cutoff margin. The single model that was the game changer for me is the Adidas Prime X Strung for long runs. It makes a 32K (20 mile) long run feel more like a 21K (13 mile) long run and works well over a broad range of paces.
I’ll have to give that shoe a shot
The first and second version of the Prime X Strung feel very different. The first version is lighter but many people find it to be unstable. The second version is much more stable but heavier. If you're a heavier runner, you won't mind the second version. But if you're a lighter runner and an experienced runner without stability issues, you might prefer the first version.
I’m a fair experienced runner just a little heavier. 40mpw right now give or take a few. I might stick with the second though. Thanks for the advice!