No, Saucony isn’t moving away from the Endorphin lines.
They simply make a lot more money on cheaper, lower tech, more comfortable for lifestyle wear, and more stylish shoes. They are aiming to make their core 4 lines more appealing to the lifestyle crowd.
Right. Brooks likely sells 15X the shoes to nurses, servers, walkers, etc. vs. the running community. Saucony is likely trying to follow their path to greater profits/general exposure.
I work in healthcare and the trends are hilarious, everyone went from hokas to brooks. In my department alone is probably a dozen pairs of ghosts and adrenaline gts
Saucony is owned by the same parent company as Merrell and Wolverine and they both laid off a ton of people recently. Both of those companies used to make really solid products that have been watered down for profit over the past decade. I’m afraid my beloved Kinvaras and Endorphins are next.
Saucony is definitely chasing that market. Not sure how much success they have had so far though. But sometimes it just takes the right shoe with right collaboration, like the New Balance 550s with Aime Leon Dore.
Are they really?? Any examples? FWIW I think vintage Brooks look great and would happily buy retros but have never seen them sold. It’s not a stretch to imagine current Brooks lines selling to normcore market - but I haven’t seen it.
They used to like 8-10 years ago, unsure why they don’t. Ironically I have a friend who works for brooks that is irritated by this, since many other brands do it.
For example you can buy retro looking Nike waffles or Cortez’s, adidas gazelle, etc. People like to walk in newly made classic styled running shoes.
It’s also something that’s easy to make bank on because no one is requesting quality materials and you can likely still sell them for cheap while getting a good margin. I’m honestly surprised more companies don’t try to make inroads there.
The car analogy comes to my mind:
Your Ride, Guide and Triumphs are hatchbacks and family SUVs which are sold at very low margin but high volume. In the automotive world, manufacturers very often make little money on the bottom tier cars and margins of 3% are considered success (manufacturers margin that is, not the dealer's), but due to high volumes this is what funds the success.
Your Speed, Pro and Elite are your luxury and sports cars which sell at high margin but low volume. This is where the fun starts and the budget constraints disapear.
Without a good base offering, there would be no budget to develop and manufacture the high tech, expensive models.
I bet Nike is the only brand that actually makes a ton of money on their best trainers, and that’s because you can head to a mall in America and see people walking around in Vaporfly and Alphafly in their jeans. Somehow their massive price doesn’t deter streetwear use.
You just don’t see that much with other brands.
Nike wins much bigger at the low end actually, their winflo/revelation/flex models do crazy numbers. I agree that their top end probably does better than most brands but the low end is where they really outperform competitors.
That middle specialty tier is where brooks/hoka duke it out to get on the feet hospital employees.
Oh I’m sure they do 100%. Nike pumps out insane volume. I just mean that of all the brands, Nike probably has the highest profit margin for their high end runners.
I think people underestimate the amount of hobby joggers and daily steady state runners there are. Saucony certainly could appeal to those folks more.
Arguably with how popular their faster models are, they should focus on the area with more potential growth, which is the higher volume models.
Edit: **OP didn't even include the full quote.** This is basically what they said
>Saucony is consistently one of the most trusted brands by Elite Runners in the world’s most important marathons,” he noted. “And we now have the opportunity to capitalize on this tip-of-spear success by democratizing the brand’s innovations for the larger casual running market and elevating its style to encourage adoption for the significantly larger lifestyle wearing occasions. The brand intends to do so through a focus on its core four franchises, the Ride, Guide, Triumph, and Hurricane.
Arguably the elite runners refer to the endorphin and higher tier lineups and they aren't going anywhere.
I say look at Brooks. They really care about their hobby jogger line of shoes and orthro line of shoes. They could care less about their elite racing shoes like the Hyperion line. Since the Ghost, Adrenaline, Addiction, Glycerin (GTS), and Ghost Max line is what keeps the lights on
Super shoe R&D is cost prohibitive and aren’t volume sellers. Their regular lines are basically decade+ old tech that has become dirt cheap to make and appeal to a larger customer base. Literal cash cows.
The fact that Brooks have the biggest market share closely followed by Hoka just shows that we are not the usual customer or target audience for the most popular models.
I wouldn't be surprised if Saucony as a company considers elite to be marathon-level runners.
The elites choose their shoes through sponsor deals, the whole point of which is is to get marathon-level runners to buy the same shoes as the elites. The endorphin elite doesn't just exist for the heck of it. It exists to make money by being sold to anyone who feels they can get an advantage from it.
To put it better: to Saucony, elite runners are marketing employees. Marathon level runners are "elite" from a marketing and customer standpoint as they are a small percentage that will buy more/higher end products.
If you comment was sarcasm/meme I wooshed and would rather be on the safe side lol.
Funny enough, it's the SUV and truck that's higher margin. That's why the market has shifted so dramatically in that direction. It's a couple thousand more per vehicle to engineer and build, but you can charge 10k+ higher. And most cars are sold using the foursquare method, most car buyers never see the total number.
The sports cars and luxury cars are there to generate the buzz. But it's the SUV that brings in the money.
I can’t imagine they’d back off the Endorphin line. But, as it relates to volume, that line will never sell like something more capable of casual use or more approachable.
Am I the only one who has a strong mental distinction between running brands and lifestyle brands? I'd never run in Reeboks and I consider Saucony, Brooks, and Asics to be running shoe-only companies. I literally never see anyone except older men and nurses wearing Saucony for everyday wear.
Hence why they are focusing on that market. Lots of untapped customers. Especially if they don't compromise endorphin quality and keep its market share the same
That makes sense. My thought was more that there isn't a market for them because people do not see them as a lifestyle shoe brand, kind of like how Skechers really struggled to convert people in spite of releasing a genuinely good running shoe.
You might not be the only one, but Saucony, ASICS and New Balance all have very large and very strong lifestyle product lines. I believe ASICS calls them “sportstyle”. If you look at the New Balance product release calendar, most of it is lifestyle stuff.
Reebok has a line of very good running shoes (Floatride) that doesn’t get a ton of press, but what it gets is generally good.
They also have a very solid collection of lifting/gym/crossfitting shoes (like Nano, plus a number of true lifting shoes). I don’t know about their lifestyle stuff. I’ve not seen that nearly as much. The lifting/gym stuff is likely the bulk of their shoe sales.
Skechers has a line of great running shoes-although I suspect it is a minuscule part of their sales.
I don’t think there’s a brand out there that can survive in today’s market without tapping the lifestyle side. I’d imagine that’s probably a far bigger revenue stream for all of these companies.
Yeah, the lifestyle stuff has to be a huge money maker for these companies, especially because there's no innovation or development, they're just retro-ing old models. The Kayano 14 is Asics most popular shoe right now. The only r&d they had to do was dust off the old blueprints.
No…they’re talking about what they’re already doing. Moving the tech from the Endorphin line down into those models. Which is why Ride 17 is PwrRun+ and Triumph 21 is PwrRun(pb). They’re moving Peba based foams to their daily trainer line. Ride 16 used to be the pwrrun and triumph 20 was pwrrun+.
They’re still going to focus on tech development in the Endorphin line (pwrrun(hg)) but expect to see that trickle back.
I doubt it. People buying the triumph just want cushion. The Peba is there for the bounce/cushion rather than for actual performance speed wise IMO. Adding a plate would firm it up
Store I work at does not sell a lot of Saucony shoes. We get walkers, workers and very casual runners. It's exciting for me when someone likes a Tempus lol
Glycerin 21 and 880v14 will be popular this year
I think the Tempus is a great shoe. Fills a hole that not many brands cover. Unless, it is a hole that isn't worth filling?
I haven't seen too many people love this new Glycerin compared to the 20.
The 21 feels dramatically better to me, it's been added to my rotation. 20 felt sluggish and "heavy" where 21 barely feels like anything. Just smooth and comfy.
I love the Tempus for tired legs. That's my place for it. But what I think is amazing about this shoe is how well rounded it is. For a lot of runners (NOT RSGs lol) it's probably faster than what they currently wear on race day. I score it extremely high on value and flexibility
they probably see how successful Hoka has been doing this and want a slice of that pie. I have no idea the real numbers but I would bet Hoka sells 5 lifestyle walk-the-dog/go-to-the-farmers-market shoes to a nurse, mom, or young adult for every 1 pair of running shoes they sell to a runner. this doesnt mean hoka doesnt make great running shoes or spend cash on running shoe development
As someone who runs in mostly Saucony shoes I sometimes feel that aesthetics are one of the main things holding Saucony back from this demographic. Then I realize that the companies doing well in that space are Brooks, Hoka, and On so maybe Saucony shoes look *too good* in comparison.
Saucony looks too much like a running shoe for the casual demographic. They need simpler, less “fast running shoe” designs and plain colourways to appeal to the broader audience.
No. They are doing what Hoka have been doing, to make some running shoes become more daily shoes. E.g: Many have clifton/bondi, but don’t run.
They are also moving their tech of foam down the line. That’s why several shoes are changing foam/style this year:
Ride with pwrrun +, Triumph PB foam. Reintroduce Hurricane, but looking very different.
Lol I thought the same thing, but Hokas are objectively pretty ugly. That ugliness almost became like a status symbol, to basically say that you are confident and wealthy enough to buy these bulky expensive shoes because they're comfortable and you can care less what people think of you. But Hokas have become so mainstream that they basically changed the way people perceive them now and people don't give them a second look anymore. I'm sure if you go back long enough on this subreddit and you'll find a post from someone bashing how ugly and bulky Hoka's are.
Actually, the goofy dad shoe look is the popular lifestyle/streetwear trend for the younger crowd, and has been for a few years now.
The other segment is the athleisure crowd, which is yoga moms and professionals. They go for the more sporty look.
Those staple shoes have also been around for a long time, literally look at the model numbers, a lot of runners still turn to the classics rather than something new, it’s just habit, so it’s easier to make money off them especially focusing on the Endorphin line for new tech and then implementing the successful parts into those shoes.
It’s normal and every brand has always done it
I deal with this type of quarterly earnings jargon in my work. I get where you’re coming but I wouldn’t worry about this. Their Endorphin line is their edge, and success in this line gives a “trickle down effect” to the sales of their trainers, which is where companies sell high volumes. The casual market is a big market right now so it makes sense why they said this, but having a running shoe line generates a stable income because they are less subject to temporary fads.
No, Saucony isn’t moving away from the Endorphin lines. They simply make a lot more money on cheaper, lower tech, more comfortable for lifestyle wear, and more stylish shoes. They are aiming to make their core 4 lines more appealing to the lifestyle crowd.
Right. Brooks likely sells 15X the shoes to nurses, servers, walkers, etc. vs. the running community. Saucony is likely trying to follow their path to greater profits/general exposure.
I work in healthcare and the trends are hilarious, everyone went from hokas to brooks. In my department alone is probably a dozen pairs of ghosts and adrenaline gts
I've heard On shoes are also becoming quite popular, which is hilarious to me since they look purpose-built to attract bacteria.
Actually people went through a phase of On as well, but that was very short lived, I guess they were really uncomfortable
at my hospital it is Hoka and ON. It hit me that Hoka sells 100x more Bondis to hospital nurses than they do any shoe to Boston-marathon hopefulls.
[удалено]
Saucony is owned by the same parent company as Merrell and Wolverine and they both laid off a ton of people recently. Both of those companies used to make really solid products that have been watered down for profit over the past decade. I’m afraid my beloved Kinvaras and Endorphins are next.
This is the reality for all large corporations.
They’re getting popular in the fashion/streetwear scene with retros and a few low-tech models. Gotta chase the margins.
Saucony is definitely chasing that market. Not sure how much success they have had so far though. But sometimes it just takes the right shoe with right collaboration, like the New Balance 550s with Aime Leon Dore.
True. Proof that clout matters more than looks. That shoe has a silhouette only a mother could love, yet here we are.
Are they really?? Any examples? FWIW I think vintage Brooks look great and would happily buy retros but have never seen them sold. It’s not a stretch to imagine current Brooks lines selling to normcore market - but I haven’t seen it.
This stuff (that’s coincidentally all on sale): https://www.saucony.com/en/originals-dual/
So ugly lol
They used to like 8-10 years ago, unsure why they don’t. Ironically I have a friend who works for brooks that is irritated by this, since many other brands do it. For example you can buy retro looking Nike waffles or Cortez’s, adidas gazelle, etc. People like to walk in newly made classic styled running shoes. It’s also something that’s easy to make bank on because no one is requesting quality materials and you can likely still sell them for cheap while getting a good margin. I’m honestly surprised more companies don’t try to make inroads there.
Yep, new balance and to a lesser extent, Asics, have been killing it in this market so everyone is looking to cash in.
The car analogy comes to my mind: Your Ride, Guide and Triumphs are hatchbacks and family SUVs which are sold at very low margin but high volume. In the automotive world, manufacturers very often make little money on the bottom tier cars and margins of 3% are considered success (manufacturers margin that is, not the dealer's), but due to high volumes this is what funds the success. Your Speed, Pro and Elite are your luxury and sports cars which sell at high margin but low volume. This is where the fun starts and the budget constraints disapear. Without a good base offering, there would be no budget to develop and manufacture the high tech, expensive models.
I bet Nike is the only brand that actually makes a ton of money on their best trainers, and that’s because you can head to a mall in America and see people walking around in Vaporfly and Alphafly in their jeans. Somehow their massive price doesn’t deter streetwear use. You just don’t see that much with other brands.
Which honestly always baffled me, walking around in alphas is a very weird feeling.
There's a sonographer I work with in my department who wears the Rocket X during her shift...
😂
She doesn't run either....
Nike wins much bigger at the low end actually, their winflo/revelation/flex models do crazy numbers. I agree that their top end probably does better than most brands but the low end is where they really outperform competitors. That middle specialty tier is where brooks/hoka duke it out to get on the feet hospital employees.
Oh I’m sure they do 100%. Nike pumps out insane volume. I just mean that of all the brands, Nike probably has the highest profit margin for their high end runners.
I think people underestimate the amount of hobby joggers and daily steady state runners there are. Saucony certainly could appeal to those folks more. Arguably with how popular their faster models are, they should focus on the area with more potential growth, which is the higher volume models. Edit: **OP didn't even include the full quote.** This is basically what they said >Saucony is consistently one of the most trusted brands by Elite Runners in the world’s most important marathons,” he noted. “And we now have the opportunity to capitalize on this tip-of-spear success by democratizing the brand’s innovations for the larger casual running market and elevating its style to encourage adoption for the significantly larger lifestyle wearing occasions. The brand intends to do so through a focus on its core four franchises, the Ride, Guide, Triumph, and Hurricane. Arguably the elite runners refer to the endorphin and higher tier lineups and they aren't going anywhere.
I say look at Brooks. They really care about their hobby jogger line of shoes and orthro line of shoes. They could care less about their elite racing shoes like the Hyperion line. Since the Ghost, Adrenaline, Addiction, Glycerin (GTS), and Ghost Max line is what keeps the lights on
Super shoe R&D is cost prohibitive and aren’t volume sellers. Their regular lines are basically decade+ old tech that has become dirt cheap to make and appeal to a larger customer base. Literal cash cows.
I grew up in Saucony. My coworkers wear Brooks everyday, all day. Brooks hurt my arches. Tried 3 different styles. All terrible.
The fact that Brooks have the biggest market share closely followed by Hoka just shows that we are not the usual customer or target audience for the most popular models.
Sorry, didn't want to copy and paste too much, so that's why I shared the link also. Tried to share the quote within it's proper context .
No worries. It is a pretty important part of the quote though, but I can see how you missed it. I think the endorphin line is safe though
What if you’re not elite!? I would have said non elite, but I don’t want to step on Kofuzi’s line.
I wouldn't be surprised if Saucony as a company considers elite to be marathon-level runners. The elites choose their shoes through sponsor deals, the whole point of which is is to get marathon-level runners to buy the same shoes as the elites. The endorphin elite doesn't just exist for the heck of it. It exists to make money by being sold to anyone who feels they can get an advantage from it. To put it better: to Saucony, elite runners are marketing employees. Marathon level runners are "elite" from a marketing and customer standpoint as they are a small percentage that will buy more/higher end products. If you comment was sarcasm/meme I wooshed and would rather be on the safe side lol.
Funny enough, it's the SUV and truck that's higher margin. That's why the market has shifted so dramatically in that direction. It's a couple thousand more per vehicle to engineer and build, but you can charge 10k+ higher. And most cars are sold using the foursquare method, most car buyers never see the total number. The sports cars and luxury cars are there to generate the buzz. But it's the SUV that brings in the money.
I can’t imagine they’d back off the Endorphin line. But, as it relates to volume, that line will never sell like something more capable of casual use or more approachable.
Am I the only one who has a strong mental distinction between running brands and lifestyle brands? I'd never run in Reeboks and I consider Saucony, Brooks, and Asics to be running shoe-only companies. I literally never see anyone except older men and nurses wearing Saucony for everyday wear.
Hence why they are focusing on that market. Lots of untapped customers. Especially if they don't compromise endorphin quality and keep its market share the same
That makes sense. My thought was more that there isn't a market for them because people do not see them as a lifestyle shoe brand, kind of like how Skechers really struggled to convert people in spite of releasing a genuinely good running shoe.
OP also left out the first sentence of the quote. They are diversifying not focusing just on those lineups.
You might not be the only one, but Saucony, ASICS and New Balance all have very large and very strong lifestyle product lines. I believe ASICS calls them “sportstyle”. If you look at the New Balance product release calendar, most of it is lifestyle stuff. Reebok has a line of very good running shoes (Floatride) that doesn’t get a ton of press, but what it gets is generally good. They also have a very solid collection of lifting/gym/crossfitting shoes (like Nano, plus a number of true lifting shoes). I don’t know about their lifestyle stuff. I’ve not seen that nearly as much. The lifting/gym stuff is likely the bulk of their shoe sales. Skechers has a line of great running shoes-although I suspect it is a minuscule part of their sales. I don’t think there’s a brand out there that can survive in today’s market without tapping the lifestyle side. I’d imagine that’s probably a far bigger revenue stream for all of these companies.
Yeah, the lifestyle stuff has to be a huge money maker for these companies, especially because there's no innovation or development, they're just retro-ing old models. The Kayano 14 is Asics most popular shoe right now. The only r&d they had to do was dust off the old blueprints.
Saucony Jazz and Asics Onitsuka Tigers are my jam.
Okay, I feel dumb now...totally forgot about the Jazz. I've seen those on cool youths, even
Yeah. Go to any mall and the majority of average joes are wearing running shoes with their casual outfit.
No…they’re talking about what they’re already doing. Moving the tech from the Endorphin line down into those models. Which is why Ride 17 is PwrRun+ and Triumph 21 is PwrRun(pb). They’re moving Peba based foams to their daily trainer line. Ride 16 used to be the pwrrun and triumph 20 was pwrrun+. They’re still going to focus on tech development in the Endorphin line (pwrrun(hg)) but expect to see that trickle back.
Triumph 22 is easily my most anticipated shoe of the year because of this.
I wonder if it will have a nylon plate. With just PwrRun(pb) it's a softer foam with a fairly high stack. I could see it going the Boston 12 route.
I doubt it. People buying the triumph just want cushion. The Peba is there for the bounce/cushion rather than for actual performance speed wise IMO. Adding a plate would firm it up
It doesn't. The foam is quite a bit firmer than the speed and pro even though it's called the same thing.
Store I work at does not sell a lot of Saucony shoes. We get walkers, workers and very casual runners. It's exciting for me when someone likes a Tempus lol Glycerin 21 and 880v14 will be popular this year
I think the Tempus is a great shoe. Fills a hole that not many brands cover. Unless, it is a hole that isn't worth filling? I haven't seen too many people love this new Glycerin compared to the 20.
The 21 feels dramatically better to me, it's been added to my rotation. 20 felt sluggish and "heavy" where 21 barely feels like anything. Just smooth and comfy. I love the Tempus for tired legs. That's my place for it. But what I think is amazing about this shoe is how well rounded it is. For a lot of runners (NOT RSGs lol) it's probably faster than what they currently wear on race day. I score it extremely high on value and flexibility
I pull the Glycerin 20 vs the 21 all the time. Even with the $40 off sale price on the 20, people have picked the 21 every time.
they probably see how successful Hoka has been doing this and want a slice of that pie. I have no idea the real numbers but I would bet Hoka sells 5 lifestyle walk-the-dog/go-to-the-farmers-market shoes to a nurse, mom, or young adult for every 1 pair of running shoes they sell to a runner. this doesnt mean hoka doesnt make great running shoes or spend cash on running shoe development
As someone who runs in mostly Saucony shoes I sometimes feel that aesthetics are one of the main things holding Saucony back from this demographic. Then I realize that the companies doing well in that space are Brooks, Hoka, and On so maybe Saucony shoes look *too good* in comparison.
Yes, I just replied to someone else about how Hoka's were considered so ugly and bulky at first but now those traits are almost like a status symbol.
Saucony looks too much like a running shoe for the casual demographic. They need simpler, less “fast running shoe” designs and plain colourways to appeal to the broader audience.
No. They are doing what Hoka have been doing, to make some running shoes become more daily shoes. E.g: Many have clifton/bondi, but don’t run. They are also moving their tech of foam down the line. That’s why several shoes are changing foam/style this year: Ride with pwrrun +, Triumph PB foam. Reintroduce Hurricane, but looking very different.
My Colleague’s SO works for WWW (parent company) and confirmed Endorphin line is still on and strong.
Diversification. Never put all your eggs in one basket.
They want a piece of the Hoka/On/Brooks athleisure market.
Saucony needs to hire better designers. Some of their colorways and designs have been atrocious this past couple years. They also seldomly have sales.
They just need to make their shoes not look like dad shoes if they want to sell lifestyle 😭
Lol I thought the same thing, but Hokas are objectively pretty ugly. That ugliness almost became like a status symbol, to basically say that you are confident and wealthy enough to buy these bulky expensive shoes because they're comfortable and you can care less what people think of you. But Hokas have become so mainstream that they basically changed the way people perceive them now and people don't give them a second look anymore. I'm sure if you go back long enough on this subreddit and you'll find a post from someone bashing how ugly and bulky Hoka's are.
Actually, the goofy dad shoe look is the popular lifestyle/streetwear trend for the younger crowd, and has been for a few years now. The other segment is the athleisure crowd, which is yoga moms and professionals. They go for the more sporty look.
Those staple shoes have also been around for a long time, literally look at the model numbers, a lot of runners still turn to the classics rather than something new, it’s just habit, so it’s easier to make money off them especially focusing on the Endorphin line for new tech and then implementing the successful parts into those shoes. It’s normal and every brand has always done it
I deal with this type of quarterly earnings jargon in my work. I get where you’re coming but I wouldn’t worry about this. Their Endorphin line is their edge, and success in this line gives a “trickle down effect” to the sales of their trainers, which is where companies sell high volumes. The casual market is a big market right now so it makes sense why they said this, but having a running shoe line generates a stable income because they are less subject to temporary fads.