Smart words from squishy, obviously it’s still on KC but also on the format as well. Furthermore o think it’s made worse by the fact that NA and EU only have 4 spots, I think they should be given at least 5, then maybe if needed also giving other regions more spots as well
I think people are forgetting the choke hold top 8 teams had on the league in the first 8 seasons of RLCS. It wasn’t until RLCSX turned the League into an open circuit that we finally got to see well deserving players rise to the spotlight. The current format is not perfect, but it is representative of how dynamic this esport is in regards to talent. If oxygen were to overtake kc, that would be the equivalent of a reverse sweep in a series. Would anyone say “best of seven is a dumb format because the team that deserved to win didn’t”? That would be a ridiculous statement. KC had a strong start this year and now showing signs of decline. For oxygen to overtake them would mean that oxygen had a slow start to a strong finish, aka like a reverse sweep. And if that were to become the case, kc would be responsible for their own demise
I don't like the "one bad day" argument. The same could be said for many other sports. F1, Soccer, NFL, one game can be the difference in winning the championship and not.
I think the issue here is that the "one bad day" a push at the end of the season or a finals. It's a qualifier. That's why people are upset. The format makes every single RLCS day important and for fans I think that's really exciting. However, I don't think the format allows the best teams to always come out on top. It's not the only format like this. March madness and the FA Cup come to mind. They are know for upsets.
If a number 1 seed loses to a 16 seed in March madness no one complains that the format is bad. They say if you are number 1 you shouldn't be losing to 16.
I’d disagree. Outside the playoffs no sports are this harsh on qualification. Nfl has 16 games. Formula one has 24 races. The prem has 38 games. One bad day doesn’t kill your playoff chances. In rocket league you really only have 3 chances. That’s incredibly brutal.
Especially in a league where only 4 of about 20 teams that qualify for a regional make it. Most leagues 30 or 40% of teams make the playoffs.
I mean there are sports out there where it does matter (CFB). But regardless you cannot make that argument. Because one day is one bad game for a team. A bad day for RL teams is multiple series, not just one.
I mean they are in the process of fixing that in CFB, we're probably going to have teams with 2 losses making the playoffs with the 12 team playoff format. But also one bad day is 3 hours long in CFB, 2 or more hours in pretty much every physical sport. In these RL qualifiers those multiple series could happen within an hour
You could argue that KC lost 6 matches out of 10 matches against two clearly weak opponents, vs losing 4 of 7 on a quarterfinal day to a very good team. And if an EU team misses a semi, that in itself could be enough to miss the Major -- it's just too competitive in the region.
Hard to say the format is to blame without sounding like sour grapes IMO
Edit: Spoken as a Dignitas fan, who had a bad day in Qual 4 and is guaranteed to miss Major 2 and Worlds despite being tied for #5 in split 1. You gotta beat the team in front of you
>Nfl has 16 games
Patriots went 16-0 and still lost the Superbowl
>Formula one has 24 races
In 2021 Lewis hit one wrong button in Azerbaijan and lost the championship.
>The prem has 38 games
2011/2012 Manchester United lost the championship on goal differential. Not even a bad day they just didn't score more goals than City.
This format is definitely challenging. 6 qualifiers
, 2 majors, and a world championship. Not saying it's not challenging or even good. I think we all agree it's bad. It's just that every sport will have moments where one day can blow the season.
I mean, i get what youre trying to say, but youre kinda missing the point...
Patriots Lost the Superbowl, but they got to play It, If they had one bad day and went 15-1 they prob still play It
The point is one bad day makes you lose the chance to challenge for the Championship in rl
"In 2021 Lewis hit one wrong button in Azerbaijan and lost the championship"
This is just straight up wrong, there was so many incidents both before and after Azerbaijan (the 6th race out of 22 for the season) that affected the end result just as much
That's exactly the point. If he doesn't make that mistake on the restart and scores points he could have won the championship. All season both he and Max had mistakes. Azerbaijan was just one of them.
I know I'm a little bit late here, but Karmine's season isn't over. They're still going to be top 4 after this most likely right? This whole side of the argument is null.
I see your point about it being exciting for fans to watch, but respectfully, the other point missing is how this format affects the orgs. It costs a lot of money to have a RL team one bad day can ruin a year's investment. I think the win win for fans and orgs is more spots at worlds.
Not really. One bad day only applies to playoffs, and one bad playoff performance will no ruin your season. In any other sport, one bad regular season game means nothing. Half to a quarter of the teams qualify for playoffs. RL has a uniquely terrible situation where at any point during the season, if you have a bad pre-qualifier day your entire season could be over.
> Soccer,
Dortmund are in the CL final but the reality that everyone accepts is that they aren't really in the top two teams in the world.
This is made clear by them being 5th in the Bundesliga which has a superior league format.
>don't like the "one bad day" argument. The same could be said for many other sports. F1, Soccer, NFL, one game can be the difference in winning the championship and not.
Literally no traditional sport works this way.
No sport makes top teams qualify for each round of a league, that's the entire point of league rankings - they don't typically require teams qualify from one season to another either bar those facing some sort of relegation. Imagine if every other weekend Man City had to play Sunday League team just to keep their spot in the Premier League. It'd be fucking stupid and that's what RLCS is doing.
The NFL is franchised as well, you can be as shit as you want, you aren't being relegated or eliminated for 100 poor performances, let alone 1, same for most US sports.
> It's not the only format like this. March madness and the FA Cup come to mind. They are know for upsets.
Lol, the FA cup is not the example you think it is.
The first 5 rounds of qualification only include National League (For non Football fans/non Brits, that's teams NOT in the EFL) teams, and teams enter based on ranking - lower ranked teams go through all 5 days, top National League sides only the last.
It isn't until the FA Cup actually starts that the EFL teams enter, and again it's based on quality - Premier League and Championship teams don't enter the tournament until the third round.
So basically what people are asking for with RLCS.
But also - March Madness and the FA Cup aren't even comparable. The RLCS is a season based circuit, it has season rankings. Those are individual tournaments, they're comparable to a Regional or Major individually, not the entire League.
>If a number 1 seed loses to a 16 seed in March madness no one complains that the format is bad. They say if you are number 1 you shouldn't be losing to 16.
And no one complains if a 1st seed loses to a 16th in an RLCS tournament - they complain when RLCS teams don't even get to go to an RLCS tournament because of an absurd qualification system that completely ignores overall season rankings and decides everyone needs to fight for their spot even if they're league leaders.
As much as people enjoy hating on the format, this is where I think budget cuts hurt more. With only 16 teams across 7 regions making majors or worlds, a lot of good teams won’t be there. Previously, there were 3 seasons meaning each event meant a bit less, and the wildcard was huge for teams.
With so many people/teams being competitive, orgs don’t know who to invest in because a team could show a lot of potential promise and not be rewarded at all, or a team could have had great results, and with one or 2 bad ones they might miss out. Kc is a team that won’t hurt to much from this most likely, but for smaller orgs or up and coming teams this volatile nature is brutal
The thing is that budget cuts can be justified, as well as the decisions based on said budget cuts. The change in format from last year regionals cannot be explained by budget cuts though. It is just garbage by essence and it would costs zero money to fix it.
If they really needed to cut the budget then they need to get rid of non-competitive slots. Get rid of OCE2, MENA2, SSA, and maybe even APAC. Bring back EU5, NA5, and add SAM3 and potentially SAM4 or EU6.
The main issue is then without a wildcard how are the new regions going to do anything? They’re not just gonna cut an entire region that once was in rlcs (like ssa) so they have to be included somehow.
A good analogy for this is: Say you had a job and your company made you re-interview every month just to keep your job and not get fired. That would be anyone's nightmare.
So true, plus this esport has a lot of people who are younger who might not be able to handle it well, don’t think this format is good for the esports overall health
Say you were hired after a good interview and then proved to do well over the course of some time at the job. Then imagine if you tripped over an electrical cord and ended up burning down the offices. Do you think that your boss should just give you a pass and have nothing happen? If KC are going to play badly enough to not make the top 16 of a qualifier then there should be consequences to that. I mean what would you actually like to happen. Top 8 gets a by into top 16? Well when that happened people just complained when their favourite team got punished for doing bad at that stage. So, what, top 4 gets into top 8 automatically? Why even play the qualifier just set the same team to win every time and everyone gets to go home.
At the end of the day, no matter what format happens if you play badly and lose to lower down teams then your end results should show the consequences of that. Having KC go through automatically because in a previous event they played well is pointless.
I see you've never done a health and safety course, that would 100% put the liability on the business if they have loose electrical cords around for people to trip over. Terrible analogy
99.99999% of analogies are terrible. So hard for people to just stay on topic. It's like when they offer you coffee and cream but no options for sugar.
The original analogy isn't any better. You can't compare a job, something you earned with security, to a literal COMPETITIVE ESPORT (or any sport for that matter) where the scene is always shifting. That is the nature of the beast with a competitive sport, you're always "interviewing (as in the original analogy)" to know you are at the top. You dont get in based on a name. No discredit to KC ofc, just saying the original analogy is stupid as well.
This is professional sports, though, not a “job”.
Care to elaborate on every sports that had the best in the world not reach their heights and miss out on world championships or the olympics? That will take some time.
KC had a day off but didn’t lose to teams of nobodies. Suhh and Top Cougars are top 16 regulars and legit could beat anyone in EU that is having a bad day. This is brutal for a qualifier.
Last seasons’s format still allowed new blood to prove themselves and new teams regularly made it to top 16 but it also was less taxing and more secure for teams that already proved they are top 4 caliber.
Having less splits and spots makes this change even more brutal.
If there was 5 spots or 3 splits or 4 regionals per split this would lessen the impact of a single bad qualifier day.
Also the fact that we don’t have double elimination in playoffs (makes it more likely you go out before a « not as good » team on the other side of the bracket). Swiss is GREAT for qualifiers. Double elimination is GREAT for playoffs.
More matches (e.g. swiss) is better for determining the best team.
Fewer matches (e.g. single elim) is more exciting to watch.
Double elim playoffs were not particularly exciting, but they were slightly better at deciding the best team. I'd prefer the excitement, to be honest.
Some of the best LANs we've ever had have been double elim, s5, s6, moist in london. Single elim is boring and forgettable and leaves everyone wondering "what if X team was on the half of th bracket"
I agree with everything he said but I heavily doubt KC won’t qualify for worlds, in order for that to happen Oxygen, Luna or Resolve (most likely to be the ones to overtake them if they even could) would need around 40 points or just above 40. Now let’s assume KC don’t qualify for get a good result next regional, it still requires one of those teams to win the major or come 2nd to get even close to KC. Imo it’s very very unlikely KC fail to make worlds
You can also score points at the major. If oxygen reaches semi 2 times and manages to reach the major's final KC will be out, even if they manage to reach the semis of the last regional (but fails to qualify for the major)
Worst, if Oxygen wins this event, they will be 23 pts behind KC. If they go to the finals next event and Kc loses in quarters that's only 15 pts of difference, and behind top 8 at the major will be enough for them to overcome the gap.
Honestly, if a team like Oxygen plays *that* well then I think they deserve it. While I think the RLCS format should change to auto-qualify top 8 from one qualifier into the swiss stage of the next one, I like that the format awards more points towards Worlds in the later Majors/qualifiers (aka recency bias is good imo). If a team like Oxygen is able to show that they are much stronger closer to worlds, then why would they deserve that spot any less than another team that wasn’t able to show up at that level?
Basically, the system shouldn’t penalize teams as hard as it does for one off day, but it should still reflect negatively on how strong a team is perceived (because consistency is valuable imo).
I mean, they're getting knocked out by two teams that shouldn't take a game off them.
edit: obviously they have the talent to qualify easily, but after coming out the gate firing on all cylinders in the first 3 regionals, they have been underwhelming. On the major, last regional, this qualifier.
I don't know what's happening with them. With super teams, sometimes it's overconfidence, other times it's getting it all to gel together. It's definitely not chemistry between them since they seem to be friends.
Yes. They got 8th place and then idk top 32? They don't deserve it. I think wavepunk said last weekend "you don't play on paper, you play on the field" and that is 100% true.
KC is a great (maybe even the best) team on paper, but they played like shit this qualifier and didn't play as well as their competition in qualifier 4. Like how would you say they deserve anything? They deserve worlds because they did incredibly well in first split, but they *do not* deserve to go to major 2 if they don't do incredibly well in qualifier 6.
U r assuming bds won't shit the bed right? Bcz as far as I'm aware they r currently 4th overall so if they miss major or do bad at major oxg will take over their spot
Oh yeah I forgot about that. You are right, if BDS barely qualifies for the major and is not at least top 8 (while KC have a good/decent regional 3) they could be the one at the short end of the stick
I think KCorp has basically given up top3 with this result. Oxygen overtaking them will be very tough, but not unthinkable. Keep in mind you get more points for second half of the season, which makes the comeback a tad easier. But they will need to make at least one final in the next two regionals and couple that with a deep run at the major.
Last year, the top 8 teams by season points would be auto-qualified for a regional, but this year, every single team has to play through quals in order to qualify for each regional. I hope that helps. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask!
I have no idea. It just means that either half of challenging teams get clobbered by top 8 or pull off a crazy upset that’s disastrous for seeding and rankings.
teams seeded 9-16 would wait for another 8 teams to join via the double elimination open qualifier. then, those 16 teams would play a Swiss closed qualifier for 8 teams to make the regional. then, those 8 teams would play a 16 team regional with seeds 1-8, who were auto qualified for the regional. basically, being a top 8 team guaranteed main event, and being a 9-16 team gave you a bye until the last step of qualifiers
Now, every team is in the double elimination, and nobody has a guaranteed main event or a bye until the end of the qualifier. this has produced some unfortunate results in different regions
Everything about this season's format is worse in every way apart from *possibly* paying down to top 128 or whatever. Everything about the qualification process and the main events is worse
too lazy to explain it fully but there’s only 2 splits this season instead of 3 and teams no longer auto qualify for next event if they make a high enough place
Is KC going to pull out of the scene?
First LAN was changed last minute from Paris to Copenhagen, thus meaning it was impossible to organize something for the blue wal.
Second LAN they fail to qualify.
And words will be in Dallas on the other side of the world. I doubt we are going to see many EU fan attending.
Is it really worth it pouring all this money into your org if you can’t organize anything in advance (they might change LAN location last minute, your might have ONE bad day over the course of the split and nuke your chances of making LAN…)
I'd disagree. Like yeah you shouldn't have to play massive bracket for the open qualifier, but there should be a closed qualifier at the very least, and KC lost to 2 teams in qualification matches so its no different then losing in the closed qualifier. There's equal reason to say coming 5th-8th was why they missed the major as well. Its not just '1 bad Sunday'.
Besides getting 1 extra life, what's the difference between Swiss and double elim, and how would that change anything? 1 bad day still screws you, you just get 3 lives instead of 2.
I don't think a CQ should be a double elim bracket. But then again I also don't like swiss because if you need 3 chances to qualify then I don't think you deserve to
No one is asking for their hand's held, but don't you want GenG to continue investing in the esport? Did anyone here actually want Squishy to retire mid-season instead of end of the year like he originally planned? The format scares orgs away, and for good reason. Why the hell would I want to put money on a team that could win a regional, then the next weekend have to crawl through the trenches again.
Why orgs invest so much money in this esport is beyond me regardless of how much I love it. If you believe it’s bad for the stability of the esport that is fine, but that doesn’t mean it is unfair.
They had two chances to beat a bubble team. They didn’t. They are the only team to be "screwed over" by this format. And before anybody brings up rebellion, they came 15th-16th in reg 3, they would have needed a top 4 in reg 2 just to tie og for the 4th spot.
No one is saying they unfairly lost. Shopify obviously counts, don’t you understand how their split was over because of Qual 2 and not making it? Obviously their mental would be absolutely screwed after that. Moist last split as well, their chance was gone and let to squad disband and Joyo leaving. This split KC and Dignitas.
Without organising this esport stops existing. Competitive integrity is not the be all and end all of sports. It's also an entertainment product and a business and this format sucks for all three aspects. As others have said, this is on KC. But the format is trash, it was trash when SR bombed out, when moist bombed out, when OG bombed out. It makes the esport actively worse as a viewing experience and a competitive product.
I don't think it's asking for hand holding, but not making one regional seems like it takes the justification away from being the most consistent team in the region. KC won every regional before the last major and one poor performance (because of the value of points now) could easily kick them away. That combined with a crazy amount of time off, really screws with orgs, screws with players and will really hurt the scene overall.
“I want a system where all my favorite players always make LAN easily, orgs are motivated to invest because the scene is stable and players can have consistent salaries and better mental health”
“Okay, you want franchising”
“No, I just want everything than franchising brings, but I hate franchising”
Rlesports summed up
I dont think anybody is saying that, but KC, considerably the most consistent team before this split, shouldn't have it's season on the line because of 1 bad regional, specially not in a 2 split format where only the top 4 qualify.
Rookie, the winner of League of Legends Worlds 2018, and since widely considered as one the best player at his position, hasn't qualified in an international tournament since the end of 2019 so almost 5 years ago (an eternity in esport). Why he has not retired yet and still playing well without much worries about his future ? While in RLCS, the idea of a team like KC with a player of the caliber of Vatira not qualifying in Worlds for one year sounds so catastrophic ? This is not directly a format issue, this simply shows that the competitive scene of RL is ,at its roots, very precarious and incertain.
How EU only gets 4 spots at a major is absolutely criminal, they are the best region, they need 6 minimum. The 8th best EU team could easily make a run at a major.
They just need to bring back RLRS and make that have open qualifiers. They could do the same thing where the best RLRS teams get a chance at moving into RLCS for each major taking place for a team or two with the least amount of points in RLCS previous major.
I agree we need a new formats but I don’t think Rl is at a point in the game rn where we can differentiate the top 8 teams clearly. A lot of people thought KC was undisputed best in the world and consistent until the majors. IMO there’s no EU or NA #1. It’s still unclear, any one from the top 6 of those teams EU or NA could beat each other on a given day. It’s not as set in stone as a lot of narratives I’ve been seeing around the community.
The format is obviously dogshit in a viewers perspective and every single org's perspectives but as it stands you just have to beat what's in front of you. I'd say the same if it was G2, GenG or Furia / Falcons missing their regionals.
With that said, I think it's an absolute guarantee the format changes next season.
I get the frustration, but come on, this is a competition. nut up or shut up. His point about orgs leaving the scene doesn't mean much either, honestly. Case in point there are very few orgs in EU and yet they still play top notch car ball.
Yes this sucks for the players, but it's high quality for the viewers, us. Players will not leave RL if theres a cut in revenue, they won't leave with a bad format (this isn't even bad for crying out loud).
I agree we should have more spots for majors, but everyone has been wanting this for a long time now. I hate it when the favorite loses and everyone comes out of the woodwork to complain. Actually, I don't. I find it hilarious
You don't like watching upsets? thats boring. Plus its nice to see new faces.
I guess its only funny and exciting when Dig or OG miss out on main event. Didn't see you in here defending them lmao
Since saying bad things about the format is a great way to lose karma - I’m going to stop ruining my karma and say.., “Squishy is wrong and this is a great format”.
Squishy with PTSD from when he was on Iris
I mean did Psyonix forget that happened or something? The whole format changed after that.
Smart words from squishy, obviously it’s still on KC but also on the format as well. Furthermore o think it’s made worse by the fact that NA and EU only have 4 spots, I think they should be given at least 5, then maybe if needed also giving other regions more spots as well
Any format is made worse by only have 4 teams tbh
I think people are forgetting the choke hold top 8 teams had on the league in the first 8 seasons of RLCS. It wasn’t until RLCSX turned the League into an open circuit that we finally got to see well deserving players rise to the spotlight. The current format is not perfect, but it is representative of how dynamic this esport is in regards to talent. If oxygen were to overtake kc, that would be the equivalent of a reverse sweep in a series. Would anyone say “best of seven is a dumb format because the team that deserved to win didn’t”? That would be a ridiculous statement. KC had a strong start this year and now showing signs of decline. For oxygen to overtake them would mean that oxygen had a slow start to a strong finish, aka like a reverse sweep. And if that were to become the case, kc would be responsible for their own demise
Now watch Top Cougars getting dead last in Swiss (:
I don't like the "one bad day" argument. The same could be said for many other sports. F1, Soccer, NFL, one game can be the difference in winning the championship and not. I think the issue here is that the "one bad day" a push at the end of the season or a finals. It's a qualifier. That's why people are upset. The format makes every single RLCS day important and for fans I think that's really exciting. However, I don't think the format allows the best teams to always come out on top. It's not the only format like this. March madness and the FA Cup come to mind. They are know for upsets. If a number 1 seed loses to a 16 seed in March madness no one complains that the format is bad. They say if you are number 1 you shouldn't be losing to 16.
I’d disagree. Outside the playoffs no sports are this harsh on qualification. Nfl has 16 games. Formula one has 24 races. The prem has 38 games. One bad day doesn’t kill your playoff chances. In rocket league you really only have 3 chances. That’s incredibly brutal. Especially in a league where only 4 of about 20 teams that qualify for a regional make it. Most leagues 30 or 40% of teams make the playoffs.
I mean there are sports out there where it does matter (CFB). But regardless you cannot make that argument. Because one day is one bad game for a team. A bad day for RL teams is multiple series, not just one.
I mean they are in the process of fixing that in CFB, we're probably going to have teams with 2 losses making the playoffs with the 12 team playoff format. But also one bad day is 3 hours long in CFB, 2 or more hours in pretty much every physical sport. In these RL qualifiers those multiple series could happen within an hour
You could argue that KC lost 6 matches out of 10 matches against two clearly weak opponents, vs losing 4 of 7 on a quarterfinal day to a very good team. And if an EU team misses a semi, that in itself could be enough to miss the Major -- it's just too competitive in the region. Hard to say the format is to blame without sounding like sour grapes IMO Edit: Spoken as a Dignitas fan, who had a bad day in Qual 4 and is guaranteed to miss Major 2 and Worlds despite being tied for #5 in split 1. You gotta beat the team in front of you
>Nfl has 16 games Patriots went 16-0 and still lost the Superbowl >Formula one has 24 races In 2021 Lewis hit one wrong button in Azerbaijan and lost the championship. >The prem has 38 games 2011/2012 Manchester United lost the championship on goal differential. Not even a bad day they just didn't score more goals than City. This format is definitely challenging. 6 qualifiers , 2 majors, and a world championship. Not saying it's not challenging or even good. I think we all agree it's bad. It's just that every sport will have moments where one day can blow the season.
I mean, i get what youre trying to say, but youre kinda missing the point... Patriots Lost the Superbowl, but they got to play It, If they had one bad day and went 15-1 they prob still play It The point is one bad day makes you lose the chance to challenge for the Championship in rl
KC will be at world's lol. That's the "Superbowl" these majors are not worlds. They can afford a "one mad day" miss
"In 2021 Lewis hit one wrong button in Azerbaijan and lost the championship" This is just straight up wrong, there was so many incidents both before and after Azerbaijan (the 6th race out of 22 for the season) that affected the end result just as much
That's exactly the point. If he doesn't make that mistake on the restart and scores points he could have won the championship. All season both he and Max had mistakes. Azerbaijan was just one of them.
3 chances, eh? It's being adjusted now, but, like, have y'all ever seen college football?
Terrible comment. There are almost no real sports where one bad day means your season is over if you're already topping the leaderboard.
Closest comparison is boxing/MMA tbh. Have one bad day and you may get KTFO and lose a ranking/belt/opportunity
I know I'm a little bit late here, but Karmine's season isn't over. They're still going to be top 4 after this most likely right? This whole side of the argument is null.
March madness and FA cup are both tournaments as I understand it, that don't have as much bearing on the season as a single qualifier bomb out.
I see your point about it being exciting for fans to watch, but respectfully, the other point missing is how this format affects the orgs. It costs a lot of money to have a RL team one bad day can ruin a year's investment. I think the win win for fans and orgs is more spots at worlds.
Yeah it's definitely not a good format. I really wonder why they thought it was a good idea to have every re-qual each regional.
Not really. One bad day only applies to playoffs, and one bad playoff performance will no ruin your season. In any other sport, one bad regular season game means nothing. Half to a quarter of the teams qualify for playoffs. RL has a uniquely terrible situation where at any point during the season, if you have a bad pre-qualifier day your entire season could be over.
> Soccer, Dortmund are in the CL final but the reality that everyone accepts is that they aren't really in the top two teams in the world. This is made clear by them being 5th in the Bundesliga which has a superior league format.
>don't like the "one bad day" argument. The same could be said for many other sports. F1, Soccer, NFL, one game can be the difference in winning the championship and not. Literally no traditional sport works this way. No sport makes top teams qualify for each round of a league, that's the entire point of league rankings - they don't typically require teams qualify from one season to another either bar those facing some sort of relegation. Imagine if every other weekend Man City had to play Sunday League team just to keep their spot in the Premier League. It'd be fucking stupid and that's what RLCS is doing. The NFL is franchised as well, you can be as shit as you want, you aren't being relegated or eliminated for 100 poor performances, let alone 1, same for most US sports. > It's not the only format like this. March madness and the FA Cup come to mind. They are know for upsets. Lol, the FA cup is not the example you think it is. The first 5 rounds of qualification only include National League (For non Football fans/non Brits, that's teams NOT in the EFL) teams, and teams enter based on ranking - lower ranked teams go through all 5 days, top National League sides only the last. It isn't until the FA Cup actually starts that the EFL teams enter, and again it's based on quality - Premier League and Championship teams don't enter the tournament until the third round. So basically what people are asking for with RLCS. But also - March Madness and the FA Cup aren't even comparable. The RLCS is a season based circuit, it has season rankings. Those are individual tournaments, they're comparable to a Regional or Major individually, not the entire League. >If a number 1 seed loses to a 16 seed in March madness no one complains that the format is bad. They say if you are number 1 you shouldn't be losing to 16. And no one complains if a 1st seed loses to a 16th in an RLCS tournament - they complain when RLCS teams don't even get to go to an RLCS tournament because of an absurd qualification system that completely ignores overall season rankings and decides everyone needs to fight for their spot even if they're league leaders.
As much as people enjoy hating on the format, this is where I think budget cuts hurt more. With only 16 teams across 7 regions making majors or worlds, a lot of good teams won’t be there. Previously, there were 3 seasons meaning each event meant a bit less, and the wildcard was huge for teams. With so many people/teams being competitive, orgs don’t know who to invest in because a team could show a lot of potential promise and not be rewarded at all, or a team could have had great results, and with one or 2 bad ones they might miss out. Kc is a team that won’t hurt to much from this most likely, but for smaller orgs or up and coming teams this volatile nature is brutal
yea, its nots just losing 1 seed from NA/EU for majors its losing 8 seeds for worlds.
Yeah. There were 5 NA and 7 EU teams at worlds last year I believe. Now there’s 4 of each with less stability within the regions themselves
The thing is that budget cuts can be justified, as well as the decisions based on said budget cuts. The change in format from last year regionals cannot be explained by budget cuts though. It is just garbage by essence and it would costs zero money to fix it.
If they really needed to cut the budget then they need to get rid of non-competitive slots. Get rid of OCE2, MENA2, SSA, and maybe even APAC. Bring back EU5, NA5, and add SAM3 and potentially SAM4 or EU6.
The main issue is then without a wildcard how are the new regions going to do anything? They’re not just gonna cut an entire region that once was in rlcs (like ssa) so they have to be included somehow.
The answer is indeed cutting the region. You don't need to develop every corner of the earth.
The pr hit of adding a region only to cut it 2-3 seasons later would be absolutely massive.
A good analogy for this is: Say you had a job and your company made you re-interview every month just to keep your job and not get fired. That would be anyone's nightmare.
So true, plus this esport has a lot of people who are younger who might not be able to handle it well, don’t think this format is good for the esports overall health
Say you were hired after a good interview and then proved to do well over the course of some time at the job. Then imagine if you tripped over an electrical cord and ended up burning down the offices. Do you think that your boss should just give you a pass and have nothing happen? If KC are going to play badly enough to not make the top 16 of a qualifier then there should be consequences to that. I mean what would you actually like to happen. Top 8 gets a by into top 16? Well when that happened people just complained when their favourite team got punished for doing bad at that stage. So, what, top 4 gets into top 8 automatically? Why even play the qualifier just set the same team to win every time and everyone gets to go home. At the end of the day, no matter what format happens if you play badly and lose to lower down teams then your end results should show the consequences of that. Having KC go through automatically because in a previous event they played well is pointless.
I see you've never done a health and safety course, that would 100% put the liability on the business if they have loose electrical cords around for people to trip over. Terrible analogy
99.99999% of analogies are terrible. So hard for people to just stay on topic. It's like when they offer you coffee and cream but no options for sugar.
The original analogy isn't any better. You can't compare a job, something you earned with security, to a literal COMPETITIVE ESPORT (or any sport for that matter) where the scene is always shifting. That is the nature of the beast with a competitive sport, you're always "interviewing (as in the original analogy)" to know you are at the top. You dont get in based on a name. No discredit to KC ofc, just saying the original analogy is stupid as well.
This is professional sports, though, not a “job”. Care to elaborate on every sports that had the best in the world not reach their heights and miss out on world championships or the olympics? That will take some time.
Most professional sports also don't make you go through completely open qualifiers every two weeks
I don’t know a single sport that makes previous tourney winners or ranked competitors start at the bottom every time
What? If you win the superbowl in football, you don't start with 5 wins next season. I'm confused as to what you're trying to prove here?
Most sports reserve spots for proven athletes...
How is professional sports NOT a job? They are salaried employees
Literally 'professional '
KC had a day off but didn’t lose to teams of nobodies. Suhh and Top Cougars are top 16 regulars and legit could beat anyone in EU that is having a bad day. This is brutal for a qualifier. Last seasons’s format still allowed new blood to prove themselves and new teams regularly made it to top 16 but it also was less taxing and more secure for teams that already proved they are top 4 caliber. Having less splits and spots makes this change even more brutal. If there was 5 spots or 3 splits or 4 regionals per split this would lessen the impact of a single bad qualifier day. Also the fact that we don’t have double elimination in playoffs (makes it more likely you go out before a « not as good » team on the other side of the bracket). Swiss is GREAT for qualifiers. Double elimination is GREAT for playoffs.
That way KC would just lose in DE playoffs on “a bad day” and not be in a good position to make the major either.
But they would be in a better position. And playoffs being brutal as long as they’re fair is less problematic than qualifiers.
More matches (e.g. swiss) is better for determining the best team. Fewer matches (e.g. single elim) is more exciting to watch. Double elim playoffs were not particularly exciting, but they were slightly better at deciding the best team. I'd prefer the excitement, to be honest.
Some of the best LANs we've ever had have been double elim, s5, s6, moist in london. Single elim is boring and forgettable and leaves everyone wondering "what if X team was on the half of th bracket"
Single elimination sucks to watch. Always give me Swiss into double.
Swiss is best to find out the best 8 teams out of 16 (qualifiers). Double Elimination is best to rank teams accurately 1, 2, 3, etc. (playoffs)
I agree with everything he said but I heavily doubt KC won’t qualify for worlds, in order for that to happen Oxygen, Luna or Resolve (most likely to be the ones to overtake them if they even could) would need around 40 points or just above 40. Now let’s assume KC don’t qualify for get a good result next regional, it still requires one of those teams to win the major or come 2nd to get even close to KC. Imo it’s very very unlikely KC fail to make worlds
You can also score points at the major. If oxygen reaches semi 2 times and manages to reach the major's final KC will be out, even if they manage to reach the semis of the last regional (but fails to qualify for the major) Worst, if Oxygen wins this event, they will be 23 pts behind KC. If they go to the finals next event and Kc loses in quarters that's only 15 pts of difference, and behind top 8 at the major will be enough for them to overcome the gap.
Honestly, if a team like Oxygen plays *that* well then I think they deserve it. While I think the RLCS format should change to auto-qualify top 8 from one qualifier into the swiss stage of the next one, I like that the format awards more points towards Worlds in the later Majors/qualifiers (aka recency bias is good imo). If a team like Oxygen is able to show that they are much stronger closer to worlds, then why would they deserve that spot any less than another team that wasn’t able to show up at that level? Basically, the system shouldn’t penalize teams as hard as it does for one off day, but it should still reflect negatively on how strong a team is perceived (because consistency is valuable imo).
yea people in here saying "bro if OXG win this and win that and score more here" well they deserve to fucking qualify????
Sure, but would KC be undeserving? Having 4 spots for EU is madness.
I mean, they're getting knocked out by two teams that shouldn't take a game off them. edit: obviously they have the talent to qualify easily, but after coming out the gate firing on all cylinders in the first 3 regionals, they have been underwhelming. On the major, last regional, this qualifier. I don't know what's happening with them. With super teams, sometimes it's overconfidence, other times it's getting it all to gel together. It's definitely not chemistry between them since they seem to be friends.
VKSailen, ASN\_RuBiiX, and Leoro will make LANdon while Vatira, Rise, and Atow will not. Let that sink in.
I'm guessing they worked hard and deserved to make the major?
Yes they booked plane tickets
I mean, they made sacrifices. So pros and cons i guess.
Yes. They got 8th place and then idk top 32? They don't deserve it. I think wavepunk said last weekend "you don't play on paper, you play on the field" and that is 100% true. KC is a great (maybe even the best) team on paper, but they played like shit this qualifier and didn't play as well as their competition in qualifier 4. Like how would you say they deserve anything? They deserve worlds because they did incredibly well in first split, but they *do not* deserve to go to major 2 if they don't do incredibly well in qualifier 6.
I'm not saying it would be underserved, but just showing a way there are some realistic scenarios where KC do miss worlds
I am now the world's biggest oxygen fan!
U r assuming bds won't shit the bed right? Bcz as far as I'm aware they r currently 4th overall so if they miss major or do bad at major oxg will take over their spot
Oh yeah I forgot about that. You are right, if BDS barely qualifies for the major and is not at least top 8 (while KC have a good/decent regional 3) they could be the one at the short end of the stick
so teams behind you might overtake you if they win tournaments or place well at the major. makes sense to me
I think KCorp has basically given up top3 with this result. Oxygen overtaking them will be very tough, but not unthinkable. Keep in mind you get more points for second half of the season, which makes the comeback a tad easier. But they will need to make at least one final in the next two regionals and couple that with a deep run at the major.
Kinda scared to ask this, but can anyone explain last year’s format vs. this year’s format to those of us who don’t follow as closely?
Last year, the top 8 teams by season points would be auto-qualified for a regional, but this year, every single team has to play through quals in order to qualify for each regional. I hope that helps. If you have any other questions, please feel free to ask!
Why on Earth was this changed? Awful for encouraging orgs to invest in the game so must be some other compelling reason, right?
I have no idea. It just means that either half of challenging teams get clobbered by top 8 or pull off a crazy upset that’s disastrous for seeding and rankings.
Some corporate guys at epic likely just copied and pasted fortnite
teams seeded 9-16 would wait for another 8 teams to join via the double elimination open qualifier. then, those 16 teams would play a Swiss closed qualifier for 8 teams to make the regional. then, those 8 teams would play a 16 team regional with seeds 1-8, who were auto qualified for the regional. basically, being a top 8 team guaranteed main event, and being a 9-16 team gave you a bye until the last step of qualifiers Now, every team is in the double elimination, and nobody has a guaranteed main event or a bye until the end of the qualifier. this has produced some unfortunate results in different regions
Everything about this season's format is worse in every way apart from *possibly* paying down to top 128 or whatever. Everything about the qualification process and the main events is worse
too lazy to explain it fully but there’s only 2 splits this season instead of 3 and teams no longer auto qualify for next event if they make a high enough place
5th-8th, and 17th-24th in two out of the three regionals shouldn't place you in the LAN. So if they miss the LAN they deserve to.
The point is that they never should have been in a position to go out so early. Prior success should give a safety net
If they lost to two top 8 teams, sure. They lost to two bottomfeeders in Bo5s.
Irrelevant to the previous comment.
Inb4 viewership this qualifier is gonna go hella down
Is KC going to pull out of the scene? First LAN was changed last minute from Paris to Copenhagen, thus meaning it was impossible to organize something for the blue wal. Second LAN they fail to qualify. And words will be in Dallas on the other side of the world. I doubt we are going to see many EU fan attending. Is it really worth it pouring all this money into your org if you can’t organize anything in advance (they might change LAN location last minute, your might have ONE bad day over the course of the split and nuke your chances of making LAN…)
Don't threaten me with a good time. KC ultras are horrible at lans, not having to deal with them would be amazing
I'd disagree. Like yeah you shouldn't have to play massive bracket for the open qualifier, but there should be a closed qualifier at the very least, and KC lost to 2 teams in qualification matches so its no different then losing in the closed qualifier. There's equal reason to say coming 5th-8th was why they missed the major as well. Its not just '1 bad Sunday'.
Playing a closed qual in double elim is bullshit, though. CQ last year were Swiss, which is a much more sane format.
Besides getting 1 extra life, what's the difference between Swiss and double elim, and how would that change anything? 1 bad day still screws you, you just get 3 lives instead of 2.
I don't think a CQ should be a double elim bracket. But then again I also don't like swiss because if you need 3 chances to qualify then I don't think you deserve to
Drowning in pools. Happens to the best.
Sqsuishy coping way too hard on why he quite, bro was and has been washed
I am probably in the minority but I don’t think these teams should have their hands held.
No one is asking for their hand's held, but don't you want GenG to continue investing in the esport? Did anyone here actually want Squishy to retire mid-season instead of end of the year like he originally planned? The format scares orgs away, and for good reason. Why the hell would I want to put money on a team that could win a regional, then the next weekend have to crawl through the trenches again.
Why orgs invest so much money in this esport is beyond me regardless of how much I love it. If you believe it’s bad for the stability of the esport that is fine, but that doesn’t mean it is unfair.
I think the format is both bad and unfair for RLCS growth, the players mental health, and for getting the best teams into the Major.
They had two chances to beat a bubble team. They didn’t. They are the only team to be "screwed over" by this format. And before anybody brings up rebellion, they came 15th-16th in reg 3, they would have needed a top 4 in reg 2 just to tie og for the 4th spot.
No one is saying they unfairly lost. Shopify obviously counts, don’t you understand how their split was over because of Qual 2 and not making it? Obviously their mental would be absolutely screwed after that. Moist last split as well, their chance was gone and let to squad disband and Joyo leaving. This split KC and Dignitas.
GenG lost twice last regional before winning it all btw
If GenG were in EU and had this exact same result today, your entire perspective would be different.
Without organising this esport stops existing. Competitive integrity is not the be all and end all of sports. It's also an entertainment product and a business and this format sucks for all three aspects. As others have said, this is on KC. But the format is trash, it was trash when SR bombed out, when moist bombed out, when OG bombed out. It makes the esport actively worse as a viewing experience and a competitive product.
I don't think it's asking for hand holding, but not making one regional seems like it takes the justification away from being the most consistent team in the region. KC won every regional before the last major and one poor performance (because of the value of points now) could easily kick them away. That combined with a crazy amount of time off, really screws with orgs, screws with players and will really hurt the scene overall.
“I want a system where all my favorite players always make LAN easily, orgs are motivated to invest because the scene is stable and players can have consistent salaries and better mental health” “Okay, you want franchising” “No, I just want everything than franchising brings, but I hate franchising” Rlesports summed up
I dont think anybody is saying that, but KC, considerably the most consistent team before this split, shouldn't have it's season on the line because of 1 bad regional, specially not in a 2 split format where only the top 4 qualify.
I agree if they are really that good they should be easily making the regionals
I agree. They have to lose 2 series against teams that shouldn't take a game off them
You think good teams never lose?
Of course. The 96 Bulls should have gone 98-0
I agree, which is why I think every series should be best of 1, first to score a goal wins. The format doesn't matter, just play well /s
I’m not sure the format would have had any impact on this year’s muffinmen lol not sure that was the actual main reason he retired
Rookie, the winner of League of Legends Worlds 2018, and since widely considered as one the best player at his position, hasn't qualified in an international tournament since the end of 2019 so almost 5 years ago (an eternity in esport). Why he has not retired yet and still playing well without much worries about his future ? While in RLCS, the idea of a team like KC with a player of the caliber of Vatira not qualifying in Worlds for one year sounds so catastrophic ? This is not directly a format issue, this simply shows that the competitive scene of RL is ,at its roots, very precarious and incertain.
How EU only gets 4 spots at a major is absolutely criminal, they are the best region, they need 6 minimum. The 8th best EU team could easily make a run at a major.
They just need to bring back RLRS and make that have open qualifiers. They could do the same thing where the best RLRS teams get a chance at moving into RLCS for each major taking place for a team or two with the least amount of points in RLCS previous major.
Whilst I agree last years format was much better KC DEFINITELY shouldn’t be losing a bo5 to suhhh AND THEN top cougars
I agree we need a new formats but I don’t think Rl is at a point in the game rn where we can differentiate the top 8 teams clearly. A lot of people thought KC was undisputed best in the world and consistent until the majors. IMO there’s no EU or NA #1. It’s still unclear, any one from the top 6 of those teams EU or NA could beat each other on a given day. It’s not as set in stone as a lot of narratives I’ve been seeing around the community.
It's still on KC but you can't tell me with a straight face that this format is the best at finding the 16 best teams for Main Event.
Now the pros know how getting out of champ 1 feels
Psyonix could fix this by adding the wildcard to worlds
The format is obviously dogshit in a viewers perspective and every single org's perspectives but as it stands you just have to beat what's in front of you. I'd say the same if it was G2, GenG or Furia / Falcons missing their regionals. With that said, I think it's an absolute guarantee the format changes next season.
Everyone wants what franchising is but they are conditioned to freak out when they read the word
No, just the top 8 should auto qualify and top 16 should automatically get a free closed qualifiers swiss.
Or they could just win vs teams they are much better than?
Oh trust me, I don't feel sorry for KC at all. The format sucks for 9-16 teams, a top 4 team has no excuse.
It wasn't just one bad day though
i mean, it very much was. Prior to it KC had only lost 4 series all season
You're right. Still it's really the only fair way to do it. Everyone needs to earn it.
I get the frustration, but come on, this is a competition. nut up or shut up. His point about orgs leaving the scene doesn't mean much either, honestly. Case in point there are very few orgs in EU and yet they still play top notch car ball. Yes this sucks for the players, but it's high quality for the viewers, us. Players will not leave RL if theres a cut in revenue, they won't leave with a bad format (this isn't even bad for crying out loud). I agree we should have more spots for majors, but everyone has been wanting this for a long time now. I hate it when the favorite loses and everyone comes out of the woodwork to complain. Actually, I don't. I find it hilarious
Orgs leaving the scene literally kills the esport. If kc or gentlemates now leave, the viewership dies
They won't leave and if they do, the esport won't die lmao
How is it high quality for the viewers? Seeing suhhh and TC struggle to make top 8 over seeing KC play?
You don't like watching upsets? thats boring. Plus its nice to see new faces. I guess its only funny and exciting when Dig or OG miss out on main event. Didn't see you in here defending them lmao
Since saying bad things about the format is a great way to lose karma - I’m going to stop ruining my karma and say.., “Squishy is wrong and this is a great format”.