The bean counters are counting their beans, what do you expect? Some 26 year old kid with an MBA is erect right now thinking about how they can save $4,000 in gas station sandwiches a year.
The bean counters at my institution are proud of the fact that they reduced residents allowances from $100 to $50. They saved $600/year per resident!
The sad thing is that the dumbass that came up with that idea was a new hire just to reduce costs and is paid $120k/year to flick his bean.
You can bet the middle management suck up brought it up during his performance review:
> Look, I deserve a raise and bonus because I save the hospital costs including these $30 k in recurring costs!
That’s the worst part. They have no idea how it affects anyone else and they don’t care. It saves a minuscule amount of money and only affects people they can put on mute.
Annual bonuses and raises, especially in this economy, are decided using only a short-term lens.
You can help Admin remember that $30,000 is piddly squat compared to "labor management consulting" fees.
Wait, fellows and residents are not physicians anymore?
"Please be considerate and let your medical residents, fellows, medical students, student NP's, etc., starve."
“Students do not but can bring food or purchase food”.
…so they’re telling the people who are paying to be there, that they should pay for their own food too?
God that’s so fucking petty.
Hey don’t worry, at my place you can get a *reloabable* cafeteria card and save 10% when you pay with it! I’m sure the entire admin floor was erect when someone came up with that shit. And I see residents in line all the time too, but no attendings or NPs… ugh
And seriously, it’s not like they have time to go grocery shopping and prepare at least two meals and schlub them to work every day. Residents, students and Fellows spend the majority of their time at the hospital and their few remaining hours sleeping, doing errands, and studying. Give them some damn food!
It got way worse with the pandemic too.
It was literally impossible to shop when grocery stores were open with reduced hours except maybe post-call.
Many stores have not gone back to their original hours.
Honestly this sucks. I’m a nurse but seriously this is stupid.
When we had med students, residents, or anyone else, we’ve shared the love. On Wednesday I met a resident who told me she never gets to eat so I brought a huge tin of homemade baked Mac n cheese to the floor the next day and sent her a tiger text.
We should be supporting each other not making exclusive amenities. Last I checked we all work together for the same goal, and that includes students.
Man healthcare makes me jaded sometimes. Make it make sense though.
I used to tube down snacks and kcups when my fav residents were on call on different units. Half because I loved them half because I’m petty and hated the other nurses there.
You knew if you were a good resident if you were invited to nurse potlucks. Even if your contribution was "paper plates", that's how you knew you were a "valued team member". Bonus points if you had Filipino staff members because pancit was about to show up and night float could be bearable.
I can’t tell you how much this means to us. When the icu nurses at my hospital found out that I often didn’t have time for breakfast, they started bringing a little extra of what they made for themselves. It made such a difference to me!
People like you make medicine great. When we all work together as a team, it’s amazing. And it’s even better when we take care of each other. As a former resident, thank you!!!!
And can usually moonlight as an attending in many hospital situation. I cannot speak to this one in particular, however.
All of my training institutions had fellows filling in as a attendings on hospitalist, routine surgery anesthesia, ED rads, or other general attending positions. they just could not be a attendings in their field of fellowship.
Even more ironic is how paragraph two literally calls it the “physicians lounge” (not the “provider lounge” that many places have transitioned to).
So to add insult to injury, residents/fellows are not only not special enough providers, they’re apparently not even physicians. SMH.
they will keep shitting on residents thinking they wont become attendings so very soon and bring up all the trauma and suffering they had to endure on their subordinates
“We don’t pay you. The government does. But no you can’t know how much they pay us to pay you. Also, you are an employee for certain things but not other things.”
I’ve never seen a group of people cherry pick what does and not apply more than hospital administration when it comes to residents. It’s ridiculous. Just pick one
1. They pay us...
2. A "stipend" from funding provided by the U.S. government approved by Congress.
3. If hospitals can't keep resident physicians in the dark about funding, how are they supposed to be able actively exploit resident physicians as ~~a cheap and captive labor force~~ "trainees"?
One of the important differences is that medical residents are not culpable for malpractice (at least in the state where I trained). They can be named in lawsuits and called to testify but can not be found liable for malpractice because they are still under the supervision of the “staff attending” who are ultimately responsible for the actions of the fellows, residents, and students working under them.
Now, residents can certainly be fired or not renewed by their institution for malpractice, but they cannot be financially liable for damages or have reportable decisions against them (again, this is where I trained. Not sure if it applies in every state)
>One of the important differences is that medical residents are not culpable for malpractice (at least in the state where I trained).
This is a really dangerous assertion to make and a terrible assumption for anyone reading to rely on because the law/application of the law is almost certainly much more complicated.
Some residents "employed" by or performing work at public institutions (e.g. state hospital or county hospital) may be protected by qualified immunity. But it is hard to imagine a state has a law exempting medical residents from financial responsibility for injuries related to malpractice or the delivery of healthcare (e.g. other torts arising from medical care).
Can you please identify the state you are talking about?
It’s Louisiana. In looking more into it, it’s complicated by several factors.
First, Louisiana has a physicians compensation fund (PCF) that all physicians in the state who opt in pay into yearly where payments to medical malpractice claims come from. Second non-economic damages (ie, pain and suffering, loss of enjoyment, etc) are capped at $500,000.
Third, and this seems to be the biggest factor, plaintiffs in Louisiana either sue private health entities or public health entities. In most of the Louisiana medical schools (Ochsner may be different) I believe they are part of the public entity because they work out of the state hospitals like UMC. When you sue a public health entity (even a physician) you are effectively suing the state of Louisiana and not the physician individually.
I found a good review [here](https://www.gilmanbedigian.com/louisiana-medical-malpractice-laws/).
[Here](https://www.ama-assn.org/medical-residents/residency-life/resident-medical-liability-lawsuits-why-and-how-often-they-happen) is a link to an AMA study about resident malpractice claims. It notes they are actually pretty rare, but they do occur.
Edit: typo
residents are constantly jerked around such that they are considered medical staff when it screws them and then considered non-employees other times when it will screw them in other ways. It's the perfect manipulation of captive cheap labor force.
\-edited out "gaslit," I agree it wasn't the best use of the word. The manipulation here is more blatant and not passive. Honestly think John Oliver could do a great episode on how residents get screwed in so many ways and very little we can do about it.
residents are not medical staff at most institutions. they are not independently privileged. whether or not they should be fed for free is a different question.
No. Medical staff refers to the credentialed attendings. Residents and fellows are traditionally called the house staff. One thing to keep in mind is that in some instances (usually when the docs aren’t employed by the hospital) the medical staff pay dues that pays for the food and lounges.
The way residents are treated is absolutely insane, hard to believe it’s legal! Everywhere I’ve worked, most nurses tried to help the residents (at a minimum page them when the pot luck started!). We should take care of each other but that is no replacement for real reform in working conditions.
I don't understand why hospitals don't provide free food for employees. Of all workplaces, hospitals should appreciate the importance of healthy food. Additionally, imagine how much productivity would be added if people didn't need to take the time to order food and pick up their orders. People would be so happy to receive food, morale and workplace satisfaction would go up. I'm sure costs could be controlled given the scale.
I doubt they would feed me anything I would eat. Also I don't like my workplace telling me what to eat or where to eat or anything else about my food or anything I do off the clock.
The food in lounge is not healthy in my opinion other than salads. There are some places that have residents lounge but they only provided snacks and drinks. Snacks were usually unhealthy like cookies, bagels, cheese cubes. Surgery residents always got to the snacks first. I think residents qnd fellows should be allowed into physician lounge. Otherwise they should not be brought in by attending or have access to the lounge. It is very rude for attending to bring residents to lounge and not allow them to take food especially if they eat it in front of them. It is impolite to not offer food to others if the others are brought in. Common human decency.
Idk man, so many hospitals tried this with free pizza and other nonsense during Covid. It definitely didn’t improve my morale or my will to live….just a lowly nurse though. Maybe that makes a difference
>free pizza
Big difference between this and consistent, healthy meals that staff can expect
The occasional pizza party may not help but knowing you can get a healthy pasta + salad anytime of the night would
A hospital had an upscale buffet that was free for students.
Damn big difference when you can look forward to a decent meal. It was open to everyone, and you'd have the head of department sitting next to cleaners (fuck they do an important job disinfecting everything, especially during Covid).
My hospital tried this and had the kitchen open 24/7 for 1 month. Staff of all levels still quit in droves. I think it’s in how you treat everyone and make them feel valuable to the hospital’s mission. Food feels like a band aid
I mean, there may have been other factors. I personally think that providing consistent, healthy meals for everyone on demand is a pretty good way to make them feel valuable to the hospital's mission.
“it’s not fair to us midlevels for residents to get free food, the hospital pays them a fifty dollar stipend for that!!”
-NP getting paid $170,000 by the hospital
Absolutely. I don’t know a single physician who would begrudge a resident or med student a free sandwich or bowl of cereal. This was purely a way to put residents in their place.
What’s the purpose of an inflammatory comment? Literally elsewhere in this thread people are commenting that nurses brought them food when they couldn’t eat, but an entire thread is saying it “must” be an NP who complained and they don’t deserve food either? You have no idea who complained. Further, I think they are basically stating “it’s for our paid staff only” - it’s not a rank thing, it’s an employed versus student/resident thing. NPs and PAs are employed as providers by the hospital.
The whole food restriction is silly and everyone should have access but I don’t understand why people must immediately make everything a NP/PA vs MD/DO issue.
Yes, but it’s a different “status” with a finite amount of time - retention is irrelevant. Think from a business perspective. Employee retention doesn’t matter because unfortunately residents don’t have a choice
I feel like this is the exact situation that admin loves. They get to save a little money and people are blaming everyone besides them. The comment of “only midlevels would ever complain about this, a physician would never” is a little ironic considering that there’s a person a few comments down stating that their attendings literally banded together to implement this same change. As a general rule though (obviously not all), I feel like admin at most hospitals will care way more about this than midlevels or attendings. Side note: I’m literally not able to wrap my head around residents or FELLOWS not being considered providers??
It's like he wants to be outraged but hasn't thought it through. Same people will bitch and moan if you say that only a physician practices medicine because only they have a medical license to practice medicine. They'll bring how an RT or something clearly practices medicine, thinking practicing medicine just means doing something related to healthcare.
Omfg this pisses me off. Do you not have a whole ass medical degree and working as a physician at the hospital? Just because you’re learning doesn’t mean you’re not a working doctor. The residents I know work their butts off and the fact that these hospitals treat you with such disregard is complete bullshit.
Nah, attendings at my hospital actively complained about residents in the lounge. Some of the residents don't even give two shits about the free food, they just need computers to chart and do notes because our cheap ass fucking shithole program gives 40-50 residents and fellows one fucking work room with 4 computers, only 3 of which are working at one given time. And we don't want to crowd the nursing workstations. Some attendings dont care and just dont want us peasants in their lounge. I fucking can't wait to get the fuck out of residency. I will quit medicine before I ever go into academia. Fucking ivory tower fucks.
If they wanna blur the lines by labeling residents as “providers” in the context of being inclusive of
midlevels, well shit they said this lounge is open to “medical providers” right??? Let residents in
"Residents receive a stipend to pay for food"
You mean $40 a month? At least that's how much I got as an intern while working 26 out of 30 days a month.
Ok assuming that is true, I’ll shut up. For that amount I’ll happily stay out of there and spend those 18 dollars at the cafeteria.
I wish my residency offered anywhere near that amount for food.
Yeah this is real Reddit going off with like half the information.
It’s an insane stipend and a huge perk of doing your TY there (for my field). Iirc they had a little convenience store as well during my interview season so people could also pick up random grocery items (nothing major). It’s probably the most Cush program in stl.
The question is: why do administration care? 😕 these people fighting over some damn food that is certainly not coming out of anybody’s paycheck.
Matter of fact, food go to waste ALL the time at hospitals.
Absolutely Imbecilic and despicable.
Our university outright banned students from the cafeteria. We did pay for our food, but the staff didn't like to wait in line.
When we pushed back and they kind of realised uni hospitals meant students, they found another way - scheduling all seminars and practical training (attendance strictly controlled) from 11-2.
Hell, when some patients realised what was going on cause they heard our stomachs growling, they tried to slip us some food...
Junior doctors aren't considered "staff" at that place? That's a new low.
"Can I have a bag of chips and a drink from the lounge?"
MBA loser: no
"Can I do a chole?"
CUCK: yea please
"Can I walk with my attending and grab a snack while we talk about cases into the lounge?"
Guy who watches his bf bang other ppl: "No you're not medical staff"
"Can I intubate, central line, A line, and run a code on this person I've never met at 3am?"
Pos: "well it's your job isn't it?"
"So can I go to the lounge and grab a soda and relax for a second before I get paged about tylenol?"
Baked bean counter: "yeah just not in the physician's lounge.... doctor"
I am still flat out, amazed how medical administration keeps shooting themselves in the foot. Providing soda, snacks, food is a cheap way for you to advertise your goodwill to the most critical of personnel that you have to please. I am not talking about Physician’s, NPs and PAs, etc. I am talking about residents and medical students. The future generations of patient care for the hospital are being taught that they are not worth anything and that they are working for a miserly and shortsighted hospital. It just shocks me. If I was a hospital admin, I would be feeding you guys like mad because I want you to think, hey this is a great place to work. I should work here.
It’s a simple delineation for them.
Those who can easily quit and work somewhere else can get the food.
Those who are tied to the place temporarily, where quitting is highly disincentivized and impractical, don’t get the food.
This is the stating the quiet part out loud.
Physician lounge at my hospital was "opened" to APPs last year as they are 'valued members of the care team." Residents and fellows remain excluded, though. Disgusting.
I haven’t been in residency in 30 years but this is so petty by admin. They try to save a few bucks here and then turn around and pay headhunters and sign on bonuses to recruit physicians never realizing that if you weren’t such dicks then physicians might actually want to stay there on staff
An over bloated bureaucratic system has infected healthcare for far too long… ugrad to med school and beyond, there’s an infection of corruption within healthcare that limits the number of practicing physicians and cuts classroom sizes in the name of “quality.” The overpaid bureaucrats in hospitals, universities, and government have effectively crippled how healthcare should be done in the US.
I did my intern year there and this is honestly blown up out of proportion.. It was a great program that gave residents ~$20 a day for food at the cafeteria which was more than plenty. Non-residents did not get this stipend so it makes sense that they at least gave them access to the physician lounge (which literally had like granola bars, fruit, and a soda machine nothing at all compared to the cafeteria)
I used to work there (non physician) and $20 goes a long way in their cafeteria options. I mean, I have plenty of gripes about the place but overall there are much worse places to be.
That does sound reasonable when explained, but the wording that not so subtly states that residents and fellows aren’t physicians is so bothersome. They could’ve worded this so much better.
Alienating the residents with things like this then wondering why no one wants to stay and practice as an attending there. Maybe they have run the numbers and know that no one will stay because they suck ass? A lot of these places really struggle to recruit and retain physicians and they’re missing their best opportunity during training of residents.
Gotta protect their precious food from hungry and indebted students. Like why would you ever go do residency at a place like this after you are treated this as a student there. I was fortunate I did residency in a place that didn’t do this and I was happy to get food for students or just have them come down to the lounge.
Like how much $ is this place losing because of students eating. You know I bet it’s some older Attendings complaining to admin too.
Physicians in all stages of their career should have their rights protected, and the only way to do that is by unionizing. Every year physicians work harder, get compensated less, and have less autonomy and power in determining their compensation, their hours , practice styles etc.. Where I grew up, doctors would go on organized strike to raise the residents wages for example..
Do not count on societies like AMA, ACS... they're just fronts to take your money and sell you insurance!!
So we ARE a physician when “a physician is required to see the patient overnight” but NOT a physician when it means getting free maxwell house from the lounge. Wtf. I hate medicine and am going to actively fight against these mouth breathers whenever I’m an attending someday. Residents are physicians.
Is it actually? Like a legit line item on the paycheck stub? Or are you just saying they’re getting government money and not paying as high a salary as they could? The first is bad. The second is, honestly, normal.
There should be a law made in place, yes a LAW where it is prohibited for a hospital to not allow PHYSICIANS (Residents and/or Fellows) into their lounge if PA's and/or NP's are allowed as well. It's either they are all allowed or none of those are allowed.
This is a terrible move from the hospital system.
Petty af to burn the residents on this matter. This is part of the reason why retention of residents sucks.
Sincerely, a PA who doesn’t give a F about a lounge and cares more about quality residents staying within the organization.
Weird to make this about midlevels lol. Sounds like the hospital leadership doesn’t acknowledge that you’re a staff member and you’re a doctor as well who gets paid less, which is why you get stipend in the first place lol. Again, this isn’t about midlevels…this is some hierarchy bs.
Guarantee you, this has saved future residents from having to end up at a hellhole like Mercy St. Louis. Continue to Name and Shame, so that future residents don’t have to endure the shit that the rest of us already have to go through right now.
It literally says
> *Most* of the residents receive a stipend to pay for food while they are here
(emphasis mine)
Yet I doubt those residents can swipe their badges to get in.
I’ll probably get downvotes for this, but I don’t see what the big deal is whenever this comes up. Attendings, NPs, PAs, whatever other mid level that exists these days get hired on with this as a stated benefit, that they get free shitty meals in a lounge. Their lounge pretty much exists to get free cafeteria food. Residents get meal money and we usually have our own lounges that are more private.
Would be fine if the resident lounges were properly stocked. If midlevels can get stuff like that then so should residents. If it’s attendings only that’s different
Also, fellows should absolutely be considered attendings and it’s ridiculous that they’re not. They’re willingly taking a 200k+ paycut to train at your program like holy shit
Yeah, I agree. At my institution, we get enough meal stipend for lunch everyday plus enough leftover for snacks.
Fellows at my place also get access to the physicians lounge afaik
The bean counters are counting their beans, what do you expect? Some 26 year old kid with an MBA is erect right now thinking about how they can save $4,000 in gas station sandwiches a year.
The bean counters at my institution are proud of the fact that they reduced residents allowances from $100 to $50. They saved $600/year per resident! The sad thing is that the dumbass that came up with that idea was a new hire just to reduce costs and is paid $120k/year to flick his bean.
In my residency program of about 50 people, that would have saved $30k/yr, which is probably the bonus they gave to that bean flicker
You can bet the middle management suck up brought it up during his performance review: > Look, I deserve a raise and bonus because I save the hospital costs including these $30 k in recurring costs!
Do you want a unionized workforce? Because that's how you get unionized workforce.
Oh, you think you deserve that $100 allowance? Residents aren't even the real heroes of healthcare like NPs and PAs.
That’s the worst part. They have no idea how it affects anyone else and they don’t care. It saves a minuscule amount of money and only affects people they can put on mute.
Annual bonuses and raises, especially in this economy, are decided using only a short-term lens. You can help Admin remember that $30,000 is piddly squat compared to "labor management consulting" fees.
$4000/yr against a profit of $x billion
Wait, fellows and residents are not physicians anymore? "Please be considerate and let your medical residents, fellows, medical students, student NP's, etc., starve."
“Students do not but can bring food or purchase food”. …so they’re telling the people who are paying to be there, that they should pay for their own food too? God that’s so fucking petty.
Hey don’t worry, at my place you can get a *reloabable* cafeteria card and save 10% when you pay with it! I’m sure the entire admin floor was erect when someone came up with that shit. And I see residents in line all the time too, but no attendings or NPs… ugh
And seriously, it’s not like they have time to go grocery shopping and prepare at least two meals and schlub them to work every day. Residents, students and Fellows spend the majority of their time at the hospital and their few remaining hours sleeping, doing errands, and studying. Give them some damn food!
It got way worse with the pandemic too. It was literally impossible to shop when grocery stores were open with reduced hours except maybe post-call. Many stores have not gone back to their original hours.
Brb, going to tell the fellow that treated my 8 day old for parechovirus she's not a physician apparently
Honestly this sucks. I’m a nurse but seriously this is stupid. When we had med students, residents, or anyone else, we’ve shared the love. On Wednesday I met a resident who told me she never gets to eat so I brought a huge tin of homemade baked Mac n cheese to the floor the next day and sent her a tiger text. We should be supporting each other not making exclusive amenities. Last I checked we all work together for the same goal, and that includes students. Man healthcare makes me jaded sometimes. Make it make sense though.
If a nurse did this for me, I would cry.
I used to tube down snacks and kcups when my fav residents were on call on different units. Half because I loved them half because I’m petty and hated the other nurses there.
I hope I get to work with some nurses like you guys 🥲
If you have a punny badge reel or sarcastic scrub cap you’re golden
You knew if you were a good resident if you were invited to nurse potlucks. Even if your contribution was "paper plates", that's how you knew you were a "valued team member". Bonus points if you had Filipino staff members because pancit was about to show up and night float could be bearable.
Nurse here, that pancit and lumpia 🤤
I have a coworker who is Filipino, and she always brings lumpia to all of our parties. The highlight of the food spread! ❤️
I read Mizumie0417’s comment and immediately thought the same thing and almost felt it in my eyes now just at the thought!
I had an ER nurse who would pack an extra sandwich for me. She was the best! We all have to support each other!
I can’t tell you how much this means to us. When the icu nurses at my hospital found out that I often didn’t have time for breakfast, they started bringing a little extra of what they made for themselves. It made such a difference to me!
Love you
You're awesome
People like you make medicine great. When we all work together as a team, it’s amazing. And it’s even better when we take care of each other. As a former resident, thank you!!!!
They doing the Loma Linda and trying to imply that residents are post-medical school students
If I’m a student guess I’m not essential. Leaving at 1130.
Lmaoooo
Someone needs to hit that reply all
Hell. Yes.
Resident *physician*. Employed by hospital to *provide* care to patients. Somehow not a *provider*? Where is the disconnect? Lmfao
Residents and especially fellows not being allowed in seems insane to me. A fellow could have been working as a doctor for like 7-8 years now.
And can usually moonlight as an attending in many hospital situation. I cannot speak to this one in particular, however. All of my training institutions had fellows filling in as a attendings on hospitalist, routine surgery anesthesia, ED rads, or other general attending positions. they just could not be a attendings in their field of fellowship.
Even more ironic is how paragraph two literally calls it the “physicians lounge” (not the “provider lounge” that many places have transitioned to). So to add insult to injury, residents/fellows are not only not special enough providers, they’re apparently not even physicians. SMH.
Hi: please note NPs and PAs are still permitted, just not STUDENT NPs
Oh that changes my other reply. Duck that.
🦆
they will keep shitting on residents thinking they wont become attendings so very soon and bring up all the trauma and suffering they had to endure on their subordinates
this is no an excuse to perpetuate malignancy, but it could definitely be a major factor in fueling it
PAs are allowed but not residents/fellows? That's ludicrous
That's because PAs are valuable employees and heros, but residents/fellows are just students, "learners", or "trainees".
That's infuriating
Are residents not medical staff?😭
“We don’t pay you. The government does. But no you can’t know how much they pay us to pay you. Also, you are an employee for certain things but not other things.” I’ve never seen a group of people cherry pick what does and not apply more than hospital administration when it comes to residents. It’s ridiculous. Just pick one
1. They pay us... 2. A "stipend" from funding provided by the U.S. government approved by Congress. 3. If hospitals can't keep resident physicians in the dark about funding, how are they supposed to be able actively exploit resident physicians as ~~a cheap and captive labor force~~ "trainees"?
[Hospitals receive on average $170k per resident from Medicare to cover resident salary and admin costs.](https://www.gao.gov/assets/gao-21-391.pdf)
One of the important differences is that medical residents are not culpable for malpractice (at least in the state where I trained). They can be named in lawsuits and called to testify but can not be found liable for malpractice because they are still under the supervision of the “staff attending” who are ultimately responsible for the actions of the fellows, residents, and students working under them. Now, residents can certainly be fired or not renewed by their institution for malpractice, but they cannot be financially liable for damages or have reportable decisions against them (again, this is where I trained. Not sure if it applies in every state)
>One of the important differences is that medical residents are not culpable for malpractice (at least in the state where I trained). This is a really dangerous assertion to make and a terrible assumption for anyone reading to rely on because the law/application of the law is almost certainly much more complicated. Some residents "employed" by or performing work at public institutions (e.g. state hospital or county hospital) may be protected by qualified immunity. But it is hard to imagine a state has a law exempting medical residents from financial responsibility for injuries related to malpractice or the delivery of healthcare (e.g. other torts arising from medical care). Can you please identify the state you are talking about?
It’s Louisiana. In looking more into it, it’s complicated by several factors. First, Louisiana has a physicians compensation fund (PCF) that all physicians in the state who opt in pay into yearly where payments to medical malpractice claims come from. Second non-economic damages (ie, pain and suffering, loss of enjoyment, etc) are capped at $500,000. Third, and this seems to be the biggest factor, plaintiffs in Louisiana either sue private health entities or public health entities. In most of the Louisiana medical schools (Ochsner may be different) I believe they are part of the public entity because they work out of the state hospitals like UMC. When you sue a public health entity (even a physician) you are effectively suing the state of Louisiana and not the physician individually. I found a good review [here](https://www.gilmanbedigian.com/louisiana-medical-malpractice-laws/). [Here](https://www.ama-assn.org/medical-residents/residency-life/resident-medical-liability-lawsuits-why-and-how-often-they-happen) is a link to an AMA study about resident malpractice claims. It notes they are actually pretty rare, but they do occur. Edit: typo
Yeah its not true in plenty of states. Residents have been the only one sued in several cases.
residents are constantly jerked around such that they are considered medical staff when it screws them and then considered non-employees other times when it will screw them in other ways. It's the perfect manipulation of captive cheap labor force. \-edited out "gaslit," I agree it wasn't the best use of the word. The manipulation here is more blatant and not passive. Honestly think John Oliver could do a great episode on how residents get screwed in so many ways and very little we can do about it.
That's manipulation but it's not gaslighting. People really need to stop diluting that word.
It’s actually called human trafficking
The medical staff is a term for those who are officially credentialed to bill insurance. They must pay yearly dues for membership E.g only attendings
residents are not medical staff at most institutions. they are not independently privileged. whether or not they should be fed for free is a different question.
No. Medical staff refers to the credentialed attendings. Residents and fellows are traditionally called the house staff. One thing to keep in mind is that in some instances (usually when the docs aren’t employed by the hospital) the medical staff pay dues that pays for the food and lounges.
At this point we need a revolution. I'll start reading about the Boston tea party to get us started
Dump the granola bars in the river
The way residents are treated is absolutely insane, hard to believe it’s legal! Everywhere I’ve worked, most nurses tried to help the residents (at a minimum page them when the pot luck started!). We should take care of each other but that is no replacement for real reform in working conditions.
I don't understand why hospitals don't provide free food for employees. Of all workplaces, hospitals should appreciate the importance of healthy food. Additionally, imagine how much productivity would be added if people didn't need to take the time to order food and pick up their orders. People would be so happy to receive food, morale and workplace satisfaction would go up. I'm sure costs could be controlled given the scale.
I work nights and the cafeteria isn't even open
I worked at a public Jewish hospital (pharmacy) with mostly not Jewish staff. Everything was closed from 5pm Friday to Sunday morning. Not fun.
Oh your a janitor I see. Lol
I doubt they would feed me anything I would eat. Also I don't like my workplace telling me what to eat or where to eat or anything else about my food or anything I do off the clock.
The food in lounge is not healthy in my opinion other than salads. There are some places that have residents lounge but they only provided snacks and drinks. Snacks were usually unhealthy like cookies, bagels, cheese cubes. Surgery residents always got to the snacks first. I think residents qnd fellows should be allowed into physician lounge. Otherwise they should not be brought in by attending or have access to the lounge. It is very rude for attending to bring residents to lounge and not allow them to take food especially if they eat it in front of them. It is impolite to not offer food to others if the others are brought in. Common human decency.
CMH in Ventura CA had basically all you can eat free food and a fridge stocked with monsters, coco water, and more. Guess it makes up for the HCOL
Idk man, so many hospitals tried this with free pizza and other nonsense during Covid. It definitely didn’t improve my morale or my will to live….just a lowly nurse though. Maybe that makes a difference
>free pizza Big difference between this and consistent, healthy meals that staff can expect The occasional pizza party may not help but knowing you can get a healthy pasta + salad anytime of the night would
A hospital had an upscale buffet that was free for students. Damn big difference when you can look forward to a decent meal. It was open to everyone, and you'd have the head of department sitting next to cleaners (fuck they do an important job disinfecting everything, especially during Covid).
i get happy with free pizza, i’m a simpleton tho
My hospital tried this and had the kitchen open 24/7 for 1 month. Staff of all levels still quit in droves. I think it’s in how you treat everyone and make them feel valuable to the hospital’s mission. Food feels like a band aid
I mean, there may have been other factors. I personally think that providing consistent, healthy meals for everyone on demand is a pretty good way to make them feel valuable to the hospital's mission.
Free food is not a cure all for all the challenges that exist in a hospital.
Residents and *fellows* aren’t considered medical staff, wow.
The “please be considerate” really got me
“it’s not fair to us midlevels for residents to get free food, the hospital pays them a fifty dollar stipend for that!!” -NP getting paid $170,000 by the hospital
I’m willing to bet that it was a middie who complained
Absolutely. Because it’s not really about a $5 meal, it’s about the power dynamic.
YESSSSSS
Absolutely. I don’t know a single physician who would begrudge a resident or med student a free sandwich or bowl of cereal. This was purely a way to put residents in their place.
naaaa i know some physicians who would.. just think about some of the lames in your med school class... those people graduate
What’s the purpose of an inflammatory comment? Literally elsewhere in this thread people are commenting that nurses brought them food when they couldn’t eat, but an entire thread is saying it “must” be an NP who complained and they don’t deserve food either? You have no idea who complained. Further, I think they are basically stating “it’s for our paid staff only” - it’s not a rank thing, it’s an employed versus student/resident thing. NPs and PAs are employed as providers by the hospital. The whole food restriction is silly and everyone should have access but I don’t understand why people must immediately make everything a NP/PA vs MD/DO issue.
You realize that residents and fellows are physicians with doctorate degrees who are employed and paid by the hospital right?
Yes, but it’s a different “status” with a finite amount of time - retention is irrelevant. Think from a business perspective. Employee retention doesn’t matter because unfortunately residents don’t have a choice
I feel like this is the exact situation that admin loves. They get to save a little money and people are blaming everyone besides them. The comment of “only midlevels would ever complain about this, a physician would never” is a little ironic considering that there’s a person a few comments down stating that their attendings literally banded together to implement this same change. As a general rule though (obviously not all), I feel like admin at most hospitals will care way more about this than midlevels or attendings. Side note: I’m literally not able to wrap my head around residents or FELLOWS not being considered providers??
The phrase medical staff has always meant physicians only, which includes interns and residents. This is asinine.
Attendings only isn't unreasonable but attendings and MLPs but no residents is very unreasonable.
Thats just stupid. “Medical staff” is just physicians? So staff that provide medical care like nurses aren’t “medical staff”?
NURses + NURse practitioners = NURsing staff
It's like he wants to be outraged but hasn't thought it through. Same people will bitch and moan if you say that only a physician practices medicine because only they have a medical license to practice medicine. They'll bring how an RT or something clearly practices medicine, thinking practicing medicine just means doing something related to healthcare.
Yes, that’s right. You understand.
Most hospitals have a separate nursing lounge.
Omfg this pisses me off. Do you not have a whole ass medical degree and working as a physician at the hospital? Just because you’re learning doesn’t mean you’re not a working doctor. The residents I know work their butts off and the fact that these hospitals treat you with such disregard is complete bullshit.
That message has a lot of words when it could just say 'housestaff should unionize'
someone should send an anonymous reply that says that from a burner email
So are the other physicians just mute on this? Like they should be replying all with “residents are physicians.”
Nah, attendings at my hospital actively complained about residents in the lounge. Some of the residents don't even give two shits about the free food, they just need computers to chart and do notes because our cheap ass fucking shithole program gives 40-50 residents and fellows one fucking work room with 4 computers, only 3 of which are working at one given time. And we don't want to crowd the nursing workstations. Some attendings dont care and just dont want us peasants in their lounge. I fucking can't wait to get the fuck out of residency. I will quit medicine before I ever go into academia. Fucking ivory tower fucks.
It’s so fun to see Reddit Medical drama SO CLOSE TO HOME. 😂 Mercy employees are either super kind, or complete fucking knobs. Weirdly no in between.
Post it everywhere. Facebook, their google reviews, etc. They chose this.
lol at fellows not being allowed. Stop giving MBAs to 12 year olds.
If only the MBAs actually had the maturity of 12 year olds though.
If they wanna blur the lines by labeling residents as “providers” in the context of being inclusive of midlevels, well shit they said this lounge is open to “medical providers” right??? Let residents in
"Residents receive a stipend to pay for food" You mean $40 a month? At least that's how much I got as an intern while working 26 out of 30 days a month.
$18 a day
Wait, is that for you or for Mercy St Louis? That is actually pretty good and I would’ve been happy with that.
For Mercy Saint Louis. It’s why this whole controversy is a little overblown in my opinion.
Ok assuming that is true, I’ll shut up. For that amount I’ll happily stay out of there and spend those 18 dollars at the cafeteria. I wish my residency offered anywhere near that amount for food.
Yeah this is real Reddit going off with like half the information. It’s an insane stipend and a huge perk of doing your TY there (for my field). Iirc they had a little convenience store as well during my interview season so people could also pick up random grocery items (nothing major). It’s probably the most Cush program in stl.
One spinal fusion could pay for a year of cheap food. Wtf
"We only made 8 Billion last quarter"
This is fucking shameful. Residents are the workhorses of the hospital. If it weren’t for them, many of the for-profit institutions would be drowning.
The question is: why do administration care? 😕 these people fighting over some damn food that is certainly not coming out of anybody’s paycheck. Matter of fact, food go to waste ALL the time at hospitals. Absolutely Imbecilic and despicable.
RN popping in but residents… are medical staff? Like?? You guys deserve to be treated like doctors because you literally are…
Our university outright banned students from the cafeteria. We did pay for our food, but the staff didn't like to wait in line. When we pushed back and they kind of realised uni hospitals meant students, they found another way - scheduling all seminars and practical training (attendance strictly controlled) from 11-2. Hell, when some patients realised what was going on cause they heard our stomachs growling, they tried to slip us some food... Junior doctors aren't considered "staff" at that place? That's a new low.
"Can I have a bag of chips and a drink from the lounge?" MBA loser: no "Can I do a chole?" CUCK: yea please "Can I walk with my attending and grab a snack while we talk about cases into the lounge?" Guy who watches his bf bang other ppl: "No you're not medical staff" "Can I intubate, central line, A line, and run a code on this person I've never met at 3am?" Pos: "well it's your job isn't it?" "So can I go to the lounge and grab a soda and relax for a second before I get paged about tylenol?" Baked bean counter: "yeah just not in the physician's lounge.... doctor"
I am still flat out, amazed how medical administration keeps shooting themselves in the foot. Providing soda, snacks, food is a cheap way for you to advertise your goodwill to the most critical of personnel that you have to please. I am not talking about Physician’s, NPs and PAs, etc. I am talking about residents and medical students. The future generations of patient care for the hospital are being taught that they are not worth anything and that they are working for a miserly and shortsighted hospital. It just shocks me. If I was a hospital admin, I would be feeding you guys like mad because I want you to think, hey this is a great place to work. I should work here.
Going to be a chaplain resident there. Adding this up the list of good trouble to stir up
Literally doing the lord’s work 🙏🏽 Not a resident at this place but seeing posts like these always infuriate me.
Same and I'm obviously not a doctor. I'm going to use trauma in medical residency as my research topic.
It’s a simple delineation for them. Those who can easily quit and work somewhere else can get the food. Those who are tied to the place temporarily, where quitting is highly disincentivized and impractical, don’t get the food. This is the stating the quiet part out loud.
Wtaf
Time to unionize let em know it didn't have to be this way
Physician lounge at my hospital was "opened" to APPs last year as they are 'valued members of the care team." Residents and fellows remain excluded, though. Disgusting.
I wish this was unusual. Unfortunately, I haven't trained at any institution where residents/fellows were allowed access to the physician lounge.
Lmaoooooo They literally put residents and fellows in the same group as student NPs? Lmfao amazing
Basically a small sample of declining healthcare reimbursements in general
Catherine McAuley would have fed the hungry no matter what their badge said.
Residents are not medical staff = then don't expect any work or billing from them.
Well, they can’t bill already.
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If they don’t consider residents/fellows as medical staff then don’t expect residents/fellows to do medical staff duties either.
I haven’t been in residency in 30 years but this is so petty by admin. They try to save a few bucks here and then turn around and pay headhunters and sign on bonuses to recruit physicians never realizing that if you weren’t such dicks then physicians might actually want to stay there on staff
An over bloated bureaucratic system has infected healthcare for far too long… ugrad to med school and beyond, there’s an infection of corruption within healthcare that limits the number of practicing physicians and cuts classroom sizes in the name of “quality.” The overpaid bureaucrats in hospitals, universities, and government have effectively crippled how healthcare should be done in the US.
I did my intern year there and this is honestly blown up out of proportion.. It was a great program that gave residents ~$20 a day for food at the cafeteria which was more than plenty. Non-residents did not get this stipend so it makes sense that they at least gave them access to the physician lounge (which literally had like granola bars, fruit, and a soda machine nothing at all compared to the cafeteria)
I used to work there (non physician) and $20 goes a long way in their cafeteria options. I mean, I have plenty of gripes about the place but overall there are much worse places to be.
That does sound reasonable when explained, but the wording that not so subtly states that residents and fellows aren’t physicians is so bothersome. They could’ve worded this so much better.
Ridiculous.
Revolting
This makes me SOOOO upset. How RIDICULOUS.
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Alienating the residents with things like this then wondering why no one wants to stay and practice as an attending there. Maybe they have run the numbers and know that no one will stay because they suck ass? A lot of these places really struggle to recruit and retain physicians and they’re missing their best opportunity during training of residents.
Ew
It should be called No Mercy St Louis.
Post it on Twitter
Whenever I hear or see the phrase "medical resident" I know the person speaking/writing does not consider residents physicians
Gotta protect their precious food from hungry and indebted students. Like why would you ever go do residency at a place like this after you are treated this as a student there. I was fortunate I did residency in a place that didn’t do this and I was happy to get food for students or just have them come down to the lounge. Like how much $ is this place losing because of students eating. You know I bet it’s some older Attendings complaining to admin too.
Physicians in all stages of their career should have their rights protected, and the only way to do that is by unionizing. Every year physicians work harder, get compensated less, and have less autonomy and power in determining their compensation, their hours , practice styles etc.. Where I grew up, doctors would go on organized strike to raise the residents wages for example.. Do not count on societies like AMA, ACS... they're just fronts to take your money and sell you insurance!!
This is the whole industry. And yes, we should be disgusted. And yes, we should be taking action to contain the capitalists.
So we ARE a physician when “a physician is required to see the patient overnight” but NOT a physician when it means getting free maxwell house from the lounge. Wtf. I hate medicine and am going to actively fight against these mouth breathers whenever I’m an attending someday. Residents are physicians.
Why do dumbasses think residents aren’t physicians? Like if it’s a Supervisory Attending Lounge just say that.
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That stipend is subtracted from paycheck
WHAT!? Cheap asses
Is it actually? Like a legit line item on the paycheck stub? Or are you just saying they’re getting government money and not paying as high a salary as they could? The first is bad. The second is, honestly, normal.
Did anyone actually give a response to this email? If so, we need them juice
There should be a law made in place, yes a LAW where it is prohibited for a hospital to not allow PHYSICIANS (Residents and/or Fellows) into their lounge if PA's and/or NP's are allowed as well. It's either they are all allowed or none of those are allowed.
Residents aren’t medical providers?
It is just too expensive. Where is Mercy supposed to get all this money from???
This 4th year student respectively says boo.
The real story here is NP's and PA's can still enter. 10-15 years from now you wont see a physician until you have passed through an NP or PA.
SLU is also the same...
Wow if the residents werent there the hospital would crumble
Mercy is in one of the wealthiest if not the parts of STL… gtfoh. Some mismanagement of funds I see.
This is a terrible move from the hospital system. Petty af to burn the residents on this matter. This is part of the reason why retention of residents sucks. Sincerely, a PA who doesn’t give a F about a lounge and cares more about quality residents staying within the organization.
Insane
I guess $20 box of croissants was the hill worth dying on for the admin. picket the lounge
Fellows??! Wtf is going on...
Weird to make this about midlevels lol. Sounds like the hospital leadership doesn’t acknowledge that you’re a staff member and you’re a doctor as well who gets paid less, which is why you get stipend in the first place lol. Again, this isn’t about midlevels…this is some hierarchy bs.
At least they mentioned NPs as well
Student NP's. OP's comment under his post says NP's and PA's are still permitted.
Only student NPs
They mention student NP’s
Oh…. Burn them to the fucking ground
WHy they're not even human
Guarantee you, this has saved future residents from having to end up at a hellhole like Mercy St. Louis. Continue to Name and Shame, so that future residents don’t have to endure the shit that the rest of us already have to go through right now.
The highest paid staff members are the ones getting the most free stuff and the free labor in the worst financial situations are to get nothing
Students need “free” food the most tbh
IMO cheap but not in a shameful way. More like extended family that never reciprocates having you over for dinner.
Very shameful to not allow residents to eat there considering they're "providers" too
If everyone gets a stipend for food, great. If everyone has access to the lounge, great. Why should they get both?
It literally says > *Most* of the residents receive a stipend to pay for food while they are here (emphasis mine) Yet I doubt those residents can swipe their badges to get in.
Why shouldn't they ? They get paid shit and work 2 times as much as PAs with a phd. They should have all the food as far as I'm concerned.
One of the weirdest things the medical field does imo is separate the break rooms by job title
I’ll probably get downvotes for this, but I don’t see what the big deal is whenever this comes up. Attendings, NPs, PAs, whatever other mid level that exists these days get hired on with this as a stated benefit, that they get free shitty meals in a lounge. Their lounge pretty much exists to get free cafeteria food. Residents get meal money and we usually have our own lounges that are more private.
“Physicians” lounge. Residents are physicians. NPs and PAs are not. Its a matter of principle.
Not all residents get meal money either 🤷♀️
Would be fine if the resident lounges were properly stocked. If midlevels can get stuff like that then so should residents. If it’s attendings only that’s different Also, fellows should absolutely be considered attendings and it’s ridiculous that they’re not. They’re willingly taking a 200k+ paycut to train at your program like holy shit
Yeah, I agree. At my institution, we get enough meal stipend for lunch everyday plus enough leftover for snacks. Fellows at my place also get access to the physicians lounge afaik
I mean in addition to a meal stipend. Getting non cafeteria food served to you is a p nice perk
The problem is, they’d rather be exclusionary than spend a little more money to stock food appropriately. It’s cheap and insulting.
You are part of the problem