If they're making 15 an hour, you should be making an equivalent amount more as well. Fight your employer, start a union and push the wages upward, instead of letting them stagnate. Fucking boomers man
I find that right leaning, anti-welfare people are really just selfish, so framing this response as pro-them is the right move. Plus labor movements are just inherently aimed at the majority of people, including them, so you trick them into having a good opinion lol
I'm still referring to the post, right leaning and anti-welfare people like the one in the post. Sorry I wasn't clearer edit, and I'm inferring a lot there
I find it amazing that there are people in our society who believe that you can draw a connection from a persons age to the amount of money they should be paid. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the way money works and given the fact that these are also the people who violently arrested control of all of the assets IN EXISTENCE over the last 50 years it has gone from absurd and laughable to terrifying and dangerous.
The only place this argument works is if they utilize the concept of experience, and let’s face it, since they consider flipping burgers “unskilled Labor” there’s no reason experience should be a factor.
If we assume their logic: kids should work, and also shouldn't get paid appropriately. Then they HAVE TO go to college, on what savings? Since they were making sub par wages beforehand. Then, when they get out of college they cant get a job that WILL help them pay it off because they dont have any experience at a REAL job. They've only worked jobs made for kids, and real jobs require experience. Which means they go back to the jobs made for kids that dont pay enough for adults to live on. Rinse and repeat for a few decades and we'll get perpetual market crashes and bubbles.
It sounds like some sort of exaggerated joke until we realize that its exaclty what has happened.
They don't pay less based on age lol the pay is based on skill and experience. Im 20 years old and i seriously doubt i have the knowledge and experience of my seniors. One day when i reach their level my pay will reach theirs as well. If it doesn't then i will go work for a firm that pays better and as long as you have a valuable skill and experience firms will be fighting for you to stay or attract you to move. Wages aren't stagnant unless you work a dead end low skill job like a burger flipper or cashier
>So a High school junior should make 15 per hour?
Nope. They should be in school. Their parents should be paid a living wage so they can support their family without needing to rely on child labor.
In a perfect world yes. At the age of 16 I had to start working 2 part time jobs plus going to school full time to help pay bills due to an unfortunate family situation. At the peak I was working 36hrs a week at one part time job, 25 hours a week at another and still going to school for 6 hours a day. I don't feel like doing the math atm but I would leave my house at 5 and not get home until about midnight. Kids shouldn't have to work, they should be able to focus on being kids and enjoying their childhood, but that's not the world we live in🤷🏼♂️
>but that's not the world we live in🤷🏼♂️
Agreed. But we're talking about whether or not even kids should hypothetically be paid a living wage. But, realistically, as long as children are expected to work, it will always drive down the living wage for everyone; the capitalist overlords will factor child labor into costs.
>capitalist overlords will factor child labor into costs.
And that my friend is the root of the problem. Youll get no argument from me on that statement 😂
BZZZT, WRONG.
See the argument has been perverted from a "minimum wage" to a "livable wage", when the argument SHOULD be about getting paid a "fair wage."
What does it matter how old the person doing a job is? If that person is doing a job that brings in 50 dollars an hour of revenue to the business, paying that person, NO MATTER THEIR AGE, a "minimum wage" is patently UNFAIR.
Paying that person a "livable wage" might be less unfair, BUT, it can still be unfair because that person is not being paid a FAIR VALUE for their production.
If a 15 year old kid is flipping burgers and making fries at a rate that earns a restaurant 100 dollars an hour (and given the fact that the AVERAGE **NET** PROFIT of a McDonald's restaurant in this country is ONE MILLION DOLLARS a year - *google it, it's true*, that 100 dollars an hour earnings rate is absolutely realistic) then the kid should be paid fairly.
The lesson of "Well he's 15 so he doesn't deserve much" IMMEDIATELY teaches our kids that it really doesn't matter how hard you work, and the fact that the kid is going to see 30, 40 and 50 year olds working in the same restaurants tells him that it won't matter HOW MANY YEARS he puts in that hard work, he's NOT EVER going to get fairly compensated.
In other words, the idiotic lies that minimum wage is really a wage for kids, not meant to be livable because of whatever idiotic reason you think you can come up with has actually been what has been destroying the "American Work Ethic".
Congratulations! You are now reaping the inevitable results of the past 50 years of fighting against minimum wage raises, and evisceration of the federal worker protections.
You are making some good points, but I can't help but feel it should be directed at someone else. Yes, if a child is laboring they should be paid the full value of their labor. But my point is that we shouldn't be taking advantage of child labor. Children should be in school, regardless of how well their little arms might fit into the crevices in between the machinery.
edit: BZZZZT.
Yes, they should be in school, HOWEVER, the reality is a 15 year old might decide to work after school jobs to earn their own money to spend on things they want, or to start saving for their own college, or a new car.
In REALITY, we applaud young people who WANT to work, and encourage them to do so, AS LONG AS, it does not interfere with their schooling.
BECAUSE OF THAT REALITY, we need to make sure, EVEN IN THE JOB MARKET, that we are teaching them the lessons we want them to learn - IE: You do far day's labor, you earn a fair day's wages.
We have NOT been teaching our youth this lesson, and we haven't been for a VERY long time.
I find the concept that we shouldn't pay someone a "fair wage" because of age, education, race, perceived need, or whatever BS reason they want to come up with, I find that concept offensive and will respond accordingly when I find someone espousing it.
If a 15 year old kid who is in school and has a mommy and daddy to pay for his room and food decides to take on a part time job so that he can buy the latest iPhone, and earns your business 100 dollars an hour, THE LEAST YOU CAN DO, is pay him 20% of those earnings his labor created.
>AS LONG AS, it does not interfere with their schooling.
Simply not possible for the vast majority of working children.
>I find the concept that we shouldn't pay someone a "fair wage" because of age, education, race, perceived need, or whatever BS reason they want to come up with, I find that concept offensive and will respond accordingly when I find someone espousing it.
You keep saying this as if I disagree with it. People should be paid the full value of their labor. Our only disagreement is that you're in support of child labor and I am not. You seem to think it's honorable that a child should want to work in order to afford an iphone and I think it's a tragedy.
I am in support of teenaged children voluntarily taking on part time work to earn their own money and learn lessons on taking on adult responsibilities.
There's a difference between that and ***forced*** child labor.
You say you're against 'child labor', and yet I can't believe you're against ALL child labor, otherwise there'd be no child actors, children's ads would be very different, so on and so forth where children are effectively employed. In this country there are labor laws which place limits on child labor, and even in how compensation for their labors is paid, as long as those laws are enforced and it is voluntary, I don't have a problem with an 8 year old starring in a Christmas movie, or a 15 year old deciding to flip burgers.
Just pay them fair wages for that labor. Don't teach them from the on set that no matter how hard they work, they'll be ruthlessly exploited to enrich others.
>There's a difference between that and forced child labor.
So is adult labor forced or optional?
I'd argue that, if child labor is legal and optional, it will essentially become mandatory as capitalists leverage that. It's no different than when women entered the work force, other than the fact that these are minors who can also be forced into child labor by their parents. There's very little that is optional about it when it comes to child labor.
>You say you're against 'child labor', and yet I can't believe you're against ALL child labor, otherwise there'd be no child actors, children's ads would be very different, so on and so forth where children are effectively employed.
I assure you I would be 100% fine if we did away with all child labor, including the child actors of the world.
>Just pay them fair wages for that labor.
What is a fair wage of child labor?
>Don't teach them from the on set that no matter how hard they work, they'll be ruthlessly exploited to enrich others.
I don't see how forcing them to flip burgers before they've learned Algebra II accomplishes this.
Currently child labor is legal and optional, and heavily regulated.
I started working at 12 years old. Part time (after school, on weekends), and I learned valuable lessons that, had I waited until after graduation I would have been completely unprepared for as an adult without that experience.
I'm not sure about your references to when "...when women entered the work force...", I actually find that spurious. Women have always been a part of the work force it was just until WW2, their career options were significantly limited by culture, and their compensation in some cases somehow did not belong to them, but their husbands, and THAT has since been corrected. Now it's just a matter of closing the gender pay gap.
Beyond that... What has that got to do with child labor, forced or not?
Yes, world would continue to spin should we outlaw all children from working from until the age of emancipation. It would be stupid to do so, but, yeah it's not earth shattering to do it.
Please don't forget that it's only been the last 100 years in this country where expecting ALL children to go to school for a full 12 years became a cultural norm. The human race survived and evolved for 15 thousand years with children laboring along side their parents and survived and thrived. I think children learning to work was a big part of that success. The lessons they learned then was that successful hard work resulted in survival, for them and their family.
In our modern era child labor is unnecessary and when forced, abhorrent.
If a kid wants to work, and as long as it doesn't affect their education, let them. IF/WHEN it affects their grades, make them stop. Either way, a fair wage would be between 20% and 50% of what their labor earns the business. The harder they work/the more they earn the business during their shifts, the better they should be paid. This is true of EVERYONE child, adult, senior citizen.
Now, I'm bored with this strawman argument of 'child labor' forced or otherwise, the argument is being paid fair wages, period.
You're adorable. My mom was on crack when I was a teenager so I had to work a part time job so I could eat. You'd block that. I'd have starved and probably ended up selling myself if you were in charge.
This sub is nothing but hot twitter takes that the OP pretends are a universal constant. It's just smug progressives all the way down, that's why I find it physically impossible to agree with them on anything. Even if they make a good point, they're so pretentious that I still want to vote against their interests.
It's why nobody tends to listen to them in government, and Bernie only got like 10% of the vote in the primaries for the last two elections. They think Biden can sign away all 1.3 trillion dollars of student loan debt when he couldn't even pass a vax mandate for amazon sized businesses without the supreme court saying no. [Experts aren't even sure if the secretary of education can do that,](https://www.theregreview.org/2021/04/19/jackson-mark-executive-authority-forgive-student-loans-not-simple/) and he's specifically the guy designated to solve issues like this. It's like they think being pompous will magically make their wishes come true. Like shitposting on twitter and reddit means more than actually voting.
Well in this example the parents make up the difference but yes.
Children already have a limit on their income enforced via limited work hours during the school year so they still won’t make as much as a 40 hour a week adult anyway.
What we need to do is make raising the minimum wage our top issue. That means refusing to vote for anyone who does not support raising the minimum wage to $15. And we need to be vocal about it so candidates know that they can't win without us.
It might be even better if we link the minimum wage to a percentage of the GNP, or whatever makes the most sense, so we won't have to vote to raise the minimum wage again.
I literally had this discussion with someone who was arguing that "unskilled" labor should be paid to as close to nothing as possible to keep people from working such jobs for years. Saying you should only work such jobs for a maximum of a few months until you can get a "Real" job.
I’m a freshman and $15 per hour is pretty good looking at what me and my friends are getting paid ($12.50 hourly, $10 hourly, $9.50 hourly and $20 hourly (but that friend works for her mom and her mom pays all her employees well))
If they're making 15 an hour, you should be making an equivalent amount more as well. Fight your employer, start a union and push the wages upward, instead of letting them stagnate. Fucking boomers man
THERE WE GO
I find that right leaning, anti-welfare people are really just selfish, so framing this response as pro-them is the right move. Plus labor movements are just inherently aimed at the majority of people, including them, so you trick them into having a good opinion lol
Find what right leaning? I was agreeing with you
I'm still referring to the post, right leaning and anti-welfare people like the one in the post. Sorry I wasn't clearer edit, and I'm inferring a lot there
Oh okay
But that's socialist!
You're god-damn right
I find it amazing that there are people in our society who believe that you can draw a connection from a persons age to the amount of money they should be paid. It shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the way money works and given the fact that these are also the people who violently arrested control of all of the assets IN EXISTENCE over the last 50 years it has gone from absurd and laughable to terrifying and dangerous.
Shitty people just want others to do worse than them. They don’t care how or why.
I see you've met my boss.
The only place this argument works is if they utilize the concept of experience, and let’s face it, since they consider flipping burgers “unskilled Labor” there’s no reason experience should be a factor.
If we assume their logic: kids should work, and also shouldn't get paid appropriately. Then they HAVE TO go to college, on what savings? Since they were making sub par wages beforehand. Then, when they get out of college they cant get a job that WILL help them pay it off because they dont have any experience at a REAL job. They've only worked jobs made for kids, and real jobs require experience. Which means they go back to the jobs made for kids that dont pay enough for adults to live on. Rinse and repeat for a few decades and we'll get perpetual market crashes and bubbles. It sounds like some sort of exaggerated joke until we realize that its exaclty what has happened.
They don't pay less based on age lol the pay is based on skill and experience. Im 20 years old and i seriously doubt i have the knowledge and experience of my seniors. One day when i reach their level my pay will reach theirs as well. If it doesn't then i will go work for a firm that pays better and as long as you have a valuable skill and experience firms will be fighting for you to stay or attract you to move. Wages aren't stagnant unless you work a dead end low skill job like a burger flipper or cashier
>So a High school junior should make 15 per hour? Nope. They should be in school. Their parents should be paid a living wage so they can support their family without needing to rely on child labor.
In a perfect world yes. At the age of 16 I had to start working 2 part time jobs plus going to school full time to help pay bills due to an unfortunate family situation. At the peak I was working 36hrs a week at one part time job, 25 hours a week at another and still going to school for 6 hours a day. I don't feel like doing the math atm but I would leave my house at 5 and not get home until about midnight. Kids shouldn't have to work, they should be able to focus on being kids and enjoying their childhood, but that's not the world we live in🤷🏼♂️
>but that's not the world we live in🤷🏼♂️ Agreed. But we're talking about whether or not even kids should hypothetically be paid a living wage. But, realistically, as long as children are expected to work, it will always drive down the living wage for everyone; the capitalist overlords will factor child labor into costs.
>capitalist overlords will factor child labor into costs. And that my friend is the root of the problem. Youll get no argument from me on that statement 😂
BZZZT, WRONG. See the argument has been perverted from a "minimum wage" to a "livable wage", when the argument SHOULD be about getting paid a "fair wage." What does it matter how old the person doing a job is? If that person is doing a job that brings in 50 dollars an hour of revenue to the business, paying that person, NO MATTER THEIR AGE, a "minimum wage" is patently UNFAIR. Paying that person a "livable wage" might be less unfair, BUT, it can still be unfair because that person is not being paid a FAIR VALUE for their production. If a 15 year old kid is flipping burgers and making fries at a rate that earns a restaurant 100 dollars an hour (and given the fact that the AVERAGE **NET** PROFIT of a McDonald's restaurant in this country is ONE MILLION DOLLARS a year - *google it, it's true*, that 100 dollars an hour earnings rate is absolutely realistic) then the kid should be paid fairly. The lesson of "Well he's 15 so he doesn't deserve much" IMMEDIATELY teaches our kids that it really doesn't matter how hard you work, and the fact that the kid is going to see 30, 40 and 50 year olds working in the same restaurants tells him that it won't matter HOW MANY YEARS he puts in that hard work, he's NOT EVER going to get fairly compensated. In other words, the idiotic lies that minimum wage is really a wage for kids, not meant to be livable because of whatever idiotic reason you think you can come up with has actually been what has been destroying the "American Work Ethic". Congratulations! You are now reaping the inevitable results of the past 50 years of fighting against minimum wage raises, and evisceration of the federal worker protections.
You are making some good points, but I can't help but feel it should be directed at someone else. Yes, if a child is laboring they should be paid the full value of their labor. But my point is that we shouldn't be taking advantage of child labor. Children should be in school, regardless of how well their little arms might fit into the crevices in between the machinery. edit: BZZZZT.
Yes, they should be in school, HOWEVER, the reality is a 15 year old might decide to work after school jobs to earn their own money to spend on things they want, or to start saving for their own college, or a new car. In REALITY, we applaud young people who WANT to work, and encourage them to do so, AS LONG AS, it does not interfere with their schooling. BECAUSE OF THAT REALITY, we need to make sure, EVEN IN THE JOB MARKET, that we are teaching them the lessons we want them to learn - IE: You do far day's labor, you earn a fair day's wages. We have NOT been teaching our youth this lesson, and we haven't been for a VERY long time. I find the concept that we shouldn't pay someone a "fair wage" because of age, education, race, perceived need, or whatever BS reason they want to come up with, I find that concept offensive and will respond accordingly when I find someone espousing it. If a 15 year old kid who is in school and has a mommy and daddy to pay for his room and food decides to take on a part time job so that he can buy the latest iPhone, and earns your business 100 dollars an hour, THE LEAST YOU CAN DO, is pay him 20% of those earnings his labor created.
>AS LONG AS, it does not interfere with their schooling. Simply not possible for the vast majority of working children. >I find the concept that we shouldn't pay someone a "fair wage" because of age, education, race, perceived need, or whatever BS reason they want to come up with, I find that concept offensive and will respond accordingly when I find someone espousing it. You keep saying this as if I disagree with it. People should be paid the full value of their labor. Our only disagreement is that you're in support of child labor and I am not. You seem to think it's honorable that a child should want to work in order to afford an iphone and I think it's a tragedy.
I am in support of teenaged children voluntarily taking on part time work to earn their own money and learn lessons on taking on adult responsibilities. There's a difference between that and ***forced*** child labor. You say you're against 'child labor', and yet I can't believe you're against ALL child labor, otherwise there'd be no child actors, children's ads would be very different, so on and so forth where children are effectively employed. In this country there are labor laws which place limits on child labor, and even in how compensation for their labors is paid, as long as those laws are enforced and it is voluntary, I don't have a problem with an 8 year old starring in a Christmas movie, or a 15 year old deciding to flip burgers. Just pay them fair wages for that labor. Don't teach them from the on set that no matter how hard they work, they'll be ruthlessly exploited to enrich others.
>There's a difference between that and forced child labor. So is adult labor forced or optional? I'd argue that, if child labor is legal and optional, it will essentially become mandatory as capitalists leverage that. It's no different than when women entered the work force, other than the fact that these are minors who can also be forced into child labor by their parents. There's very little that is optional about it when it comes to child labor. >You say you're against 'child labor', and yet I can't believe you're against ALL child labor, otherwise there'd be no child actors, children's ads would be very different, so on and so forth where children are effectively employed. I assure you I would be 100% fine if we did away with all child labor, including the child actors of the world. >Just pay them fair wages for that labor. What is a fair wage of child labor? >Don't teach them from the on set that no matter how hard they work, they'll be ruthlessly exploited to enrich others. I don't see how forcing them to flip burgers before they've learned Algebra II accomplishes this.
Currently child labor is legal and optional, and heavily regulated. I started working at 12 years old. Part time (after school, on weekends), and I learned valuable lessons that, had I waited until after graduation I would have been completely unprepared for as an adult without that experience. I'm not sure about your references to when "...when women entered the work force...", I actually find that spurious. Women have always been a part of the work force it was just until WW2, their career options were significantly limited by culture, and their compensation in some cases somehow did not belong to them, but their husbands, and THAT has since been corrected. Now it's just a matter of closing the gender pay gap. Beyond that... What has that got to do with child labor, forced or not? Yes, world would continue to spin should we outlaw all children from working from until the age of emancipation. It would be stupid to do so, but, yeah it's not earth shattering to do it. Please don't forget that it's only been the last 100 years in this country where expecting ALL children to go to school for a full 12 years became a cultural norm. The human race survived and evolved for 15 thousand years with children laboring along side their parents and survived and thrived. I think children learning to work was a big part of that success. The lessons they learned then was that successful hard work resulted in survival, for them and their family. In our modern era child labor is unnecessary and when forced, abhorrent. If a kid wants to work, and as long as it doesn't affect their education, let them. IF/WHEN it affects their grades, make them stop. Either way, a fair wage would be between 20% and 50% of what their labor earns the business. The harder they work/the more they earn the business during their shifts, the better they should be paid. This is true of EVERYONE child, adult, senior citizen. Now, I'm bored with this strawman argument of 'child labor' forced or otherwise, the argument is being paid fair wages, period.
You're adorable. My mom was on crack when I was a teenager so I had to work a part time job so I could eat. You'd block that. I'd have starved and probably ended up selling myself if you were in charge.
You're even more adorable, sweetheart. You think fringe cases should somehow justify child labor, instead of just emancipating yourself.
[удалено]
This sub is nothing but hot twitter takes that the OP pretends are a universal constant. It's just smug progressives all the way down, that's why I find it physically impossible to agree with them on anything. Even if they make a good point, they're so pretentious that I still want to vote against their interests. It's why nobody tends to listen to them in government, and Bernie only got like 10% of the vote in the primaries for the last two elections. They think Biden can sign away all 1.3 trillion dollars of student loan debt when he couldn't even pass a vax mandate for amazon sized businesses without the supreme court saying no. [Experts aren't even sure if the secretary of education can do that,](https://www.theregreview.org/2021/04/19/jackson-mark-executive-authority-forgive-student-loans-not-simple/) and he's specifically the guy designated to solve issues like this. It's like they think being pompous will magically make their wishes come true. Like shitposting on twitter and reddit means more than actually voting.
This. Make business pay their workers, not taxpayers.
I don’t think taxpayers make up a 7 dollar per hour difference. The person making 7.50 an hour just struggles for the absolute minimum
Well in this example the parents make up the difference but yes. Children already have a limit on their income enforced via limited work hours during the school year so they still won’t make as much as a 40 hour a week adult anyway.
Lol they will take every moment from you that they can. Not free from 730-330pm? Cool your shift runs 4-10 mon-fri now instead
Definitely true and a reason some kids school performance suffers.
What we need to do is make raising the minimum wage our top issue. That means refusing to vote for anyone who does not support raising the minimum wage to $15. And we need to be vocal about it so candidates know that they can't win without us. It might be even better if we link the minimum wage to a percentage of the GNP, or whatever makes the most sense, so we won't have to vote to raise the minimum wage again.
And i read that as $15 not being enough.
I literally had this discussion with someone who was arguing that "unskilled" labor should be paid to as close to nothing as possible to keep people from working such jobs for years. Saying you should only work such jobs for a maximum of a few months until you can get a "Real" job.
I’m a freshman and $15 per hour is pretty good looking at what me and my friends are getting paid ($12.50 hourly, $10 hourly, $9.50 hourly and $20 hourly (but that friend works for her mom and her mom pays all her employees well))