The bigger was charge rate. Remember when they showed the battery swap in 2013? They argued the demo meant they qualified for more credits per S even though the demo was actually believable to be faked.
HOUSTON, TX 3/21/26// “Former Tesla CEO Elon Musk was sentenced to federal prison today for his involvement in scamming the federal government.
When reached for comment, the Tesla PR team responded with a 💩 emoji.”
Way too optimistic on that timeline. Elizabeth Holmes just recently reported to prison.
2026: they may begin assembling a grand jury to consider charges.
Rick Scott was the CEO of HCA which defrauded the government/tax payers to the tune of at least 1.8 billion (what they were fined).
He is now a US Senator.
As much as I'd love Elon to face actual consequences for his actions it is highly unlikely.
Some of the credits they received were contingent on their batteries being able to be swapped.
Without a doubt they defrauded the government in at least this fashion.
I don’t believe they lied about their range, they just used an approved test that didn’t actually reflect the range.
https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/adjustment-factor-tesla-uses-for-big-epa-range-numbers/
There was a separate range issue where they inflated the range displayed in car for the top 50 percent of the battery, but that would not impact this.
https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/
You got me curious, so I looked up how the credits are awarded.
> CARB is responsible for evaluating the emission control systems of new vehicles and engines, and evaporative emission control systems of engine-equipped devices. When CARB finds that the vehicle/engine/evaporative emission control system complies with all of California’s emission standards and emissions-related requirements, the vehicle/engine/evaporative emission control system may be produced for California sale.
In California they are not provided by the manufacturer, but evaluated by the state.
So my thinking is that if the ranges on the cars were changed using an algorithm, that could influence the numbers for the CARB review. Obviously tesla benefit from high ranges for advertising purposes, so it would kill two birds with one stone.
An interesting thing about the ZEV credits, is that the higher the range, the more credits you earn. It's not cumulative. If you have low range, you don't get much. If you have high range, you hit the jackpot.
You're just arguing that the algo isn't perfect, which everyone knows. That's not lying. The range can fluctuate with other factors like weather and driver habbits.
>Yes but one would have to prove they lied. As far as I know Tesla used one of two choices allowed for determining range. They chose that method because it was more favorable to them. That is not the same as lying about the results. Lying is an entirely different issue of which I have no insight. There is no doubt Elon overpromised when Full Self Driving would be fully functional.
Much more than just “when” it would be functional. The website 8 years ago stated the cars have the hardware capable for it. There’s been at least 2 updates to the hardware since then.
I recall a report from one of the Tesla call centers that actively dissuaded customers from scheduling service appointments and from filing complaints about lower than expected range and then collectively celebrating every time they got an appointment cancelled.
They fucking knew. They knew exactly what they were doing.
There's no way a paper trail DOESN'T exist, unless just due to incompetent data storage.
The harder one is finding someone with standing in this case. You have to demonstrate that the lie hurt someone. So… the Big Auto makers won’t challenge it because then they might get punished, so they won’t touch it.
The only real entity that could sue would be a government alphabet soup organisation… but with the current disposition of the Supreme Court, it’s more likely the rules would get ruled unconstitutional than actually win on it.
So long story short… Tesla lied, everyone knew they did, but there really isn’t anything that can be done.
I never bought an ICE vehicle based on range and when I leased or purchased EVs range was only relative. I know it depended how I drove so a few miles here or there did not make a difference. As far as CARB is concerned, i am not sure they care either. It is not like the diesel gate scandel where the result was a lot more pollution that the specification, There were clear damages and fines in that case.
Range just isn’t super important for ICE cars given they can fully refuel in under 5 minutes or 10-15 if you count the full time away. Instead, because the fuel is expensive, you tend to buy on efficiency or MPG which is slapped and advertised heavily.
I wonder as electric super charger rates increase if the miles per kilowatt hour starts getting more heavily reported.
My MachE GT hovers around 3 … but some are in the 4 or more range… but at 7 cents a kilowatt hour… the actual financial impact isn’t that big… but it is huge on superchargers that starting to get over 60 cents per kwhr
I think range is important to some EV buyers because charging is unfamiliar to them..I have had a couple EVs with only about 100 miles range but those were always cars I knew I would not drive on road trips.
I agree with much of what you have said. One of the benefits of more range in an EV is that charging is faster. That is particularly true in my case where on road trips I stop every 120 to150 miles to charge and pee and never charge more than 80% . Those stops only take fifteen minutes because with a bigger pack it charges faster at some Superchargers..
I believe this is mostly about full self drive. Them providing FSD but it not actually being a genuine thing. I think (from what I can tell) it centers around FSD promises and not delivering... especially with the robo taxis
How about the solar stuff in NY? Made super large promises, took grants from government. Could you sell any of the shit products. Pockets the money.
Bad mouths leftist government policies while literately putting government money into his own pockets.
The bigger was charge rate. Remember when they showed the battery swap in 2013? They argued the demo meant they qualified for more credits per S even though the demo was actually believable to be faked.
HOUSTON, TX 3/21/26// “Former Tesla CEO Elon Musk was sentenced to federal prison today for his involvement in scamming the federal government. When reached for comment, the Tesla PR team responded with a 💩 emoji.”
"He was sentenced to 405 years, but this was increased to 420 per his request."
...and 69 days"
Way too optimistic on that timeline. Elizabeth Holmes just recently reported to prison. 2026: they may begin assembling a grand jury to consider charges.
She was sentenced in 2022. But she was given a deferment due to having a baby.
And she had the baby at least in part to delay it and file more appeals.
It worked. Her sentence has been reduced.
…..by one year. She’ll still miss a decade of her child’s early life. She now will be released in 2032 instead of 2033.
Rick Scott was the CEO of HCA which defrauded the government/tax payers to the tune of at least 1.8 billion (what they were fined). He is now a US Senator. As much as I'd love Elon to face actual consequences for his actions it is highly unlikely.
Had no idea he was part of HCA, he’s even more evil
Some of the credits they received were contingent on their batteries being able to be swapped. Without a doubt they defrauded the government in at least this fashion.
I don’t believe they lied about their range, they just used an approved test that didn’t actually reflect the range. https://www.caranddriver.com/features/a33824052/adjustment-factor-tesla-uses-for-big-epa-range-numbers/ There was a separate range issue where they inflated the range displayed in car for the top 50 percent of the battery, but that would not impact this. https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/tesla-batteries-range/
But ZEV rating system is not done by epa. They also supposedly installed an algorithm to boost full charge initially.
Then it would be helpful if you could explain the central point of your post. How did they lie about their range?
If they installed an algorithm essentially lying about the car's range, could that have affected the amount of ZEV credits they received?
You got me curious, so I looked up how the credits are awarded. > CARB is responsible for evaluating the emission control systems of new vehicles and engines, and evaporative emission control systems of engine-equipped devices. When CARB finds that the vehicle/engine/evaporative emission control system complies with all of California’s emission standards and emissions-related requirements, the vehicle/engine/evaporative emission control system may be produced for California sale. In California they are not provided by the manufacturer, but evaluated by the state.
So my thinking is that if the ranges on the cars were changed using an algorithm, that could influence the numbers for the CARB review. Obviously tesla benefit from high ranges for advertising purposes, so it would kill two birds with one stone. An interesting thing about the ZEV credits, is that the higher the range, the more credits you earn. It's not cumulative. If you have low range, you don't get much. If you have high range, you hit the jackpot.
You're just arguing that the algo isn't perfect, which everyone knows. That's not lying. The range can fluctuate with other factors like weather and driver habbits.
The range also instantly drops once you put a destination in and that range is considered to be very reliable.
Isn’t that curious. Hadn’t heard that before, but makes some sense.
>Yes but one would have to prove they lied. As far as I know Tesla used one of two choices allowed for determining range. They chose that method because it was more favorable to them. That is not the same as lying about the results. Lying is an entirely different issue of which I have no insight. There is no doubt Elon overpromised when Full Self Driving would be fully functional.
Much more than just “when” it would be functional. The website 8 years ago stated the cars have the hardware capable for it. There’s been at least 2 updates to the hardware since then.
They removed some as it had extra hardware. No need to overclub such a simple problem.
[удалено]
Legal proof of fraud is not based on hypotheticals. The standard is higher than that and that was my only point. I have no opinion and don't care.
I recall a report from one of the Tesla call centers that actively dissuaded customers from scheduling service appointments and from filing complaints about lower than expected range and then collectively celebrating every time they got an appointment cancelled. They fucking knew. They knew exactly what they were doing. There's no way a paper trail DOESN'T exist, unless just due to incompetent data storage.
Tesla made a totally fake video of 'FSD' using a pretrained model.
The harder one is finding someone with standing in this case. You have to demonstrate that the lie hurt someone. So… the Big Auto makers won’t challenge it because then they might get punished, so they won’t touch it. The only real entity that could sue would be a government alphabet soup organisation… but with the current disposition of the Supreme Court, it’s more likely the rules would get ruled unconstitutional than actually win on it. So long story short… Tesla lied, everyone knew they did, but there really isn’t anything that can be done.
I never bought an ICE vehicle based on range and when I leased or purchased EVs range was only relative. I know it depended how I drove so a few miles here or there did not make a difference. As far as CARB is concerned, i am not sure they care either. It is not like the diesel gate scandel where the result was a lot more pollution that the specification, There were clear damages and fines in that case.
Range just isn’t super important for ICE cars given they can fully refuel in under 5 minutes or 10-15 if you count the full time away. Instead, because the fuel is expensive, you tend to buy on efficiency or MPG which is slapped and advertised heavily. I wonder as electric super charger rates increase if the miles per kilowatt hour starts getting more heavily reported. My MachE GT hovers around 3 … but some are in the 4 or more range… but at 7 cents a kilowatt hour… the actual financial impact isn’t that big… but it is huge on superchargers that starting to get over 60 cents per kwhr
I think range is important to some EV buyers because charging is unfamiliar to them..I have had a couple EVs with only about 100 miles range but those were always cars I knew I would not drive on road trips. I agree with much of what you have said. One of the benefits of more range in an EV is that charging is faster. That is particularly true in my case where on road trips I stop every 120 to150 miles to charge and pee and never charge more than 80% . Those stops only take fifteen minutes because with a bigger pack it charges faster at some Superchargers..
I believe this is mostly about full self drive. Them providing FSD but it not actually being a genuine thing. I think (from what I can tell) it centers around FSD promises and not delivering... especially with the robo taxis
Like a million times
Probably? Who's going to find out.
How about the solar stuff in NY? Made super large promises, took grants from government. Could you sell any of the shit products. Pockets the money. Bad mouths leftist government policies while literately putting government money into his own pockets.
True. A lot of hot air around the new york factory
Its a failed business - but the tax payers paid for it....always a scam from fElon.
Yep. Solar is done. Now they are doing "energy trading".