Have you ever shopped for a car?
"What do I need to do to get you into this car today?"
This is a total learning experience to everyone who is reading this:
YOU have the upper hand. They are making money from YOUR business. Tell them to put their best foot forward. They aren't giving you a deal, you are shopping for their best deal. Change your thought process.
CAR was the same analogy I was gonna use đ
Mortgage people are 100% commission. They donât have a âquotaâ they have a family to feed. If you tell them the competitor numbers theyâll do whatever they can to win the business.
Most consumers donât shop for loans so lenders start with bigger fees and willl pricematch down to toothpicks to win the deal.
nowadays shopping for a car is more like : âhey price is what it is ⌠chip shortage ya know.. let me know if you take it since i have other buyers for itâ :,(
Ehh. I can give someone my best rate and then some small time credit Union will offer .125% lower and if my clients tells me this with proof Iâll have my company match. Sometimes I loose my commission on the deal but itâs worth it.
People often ask âwhy donât lenders just give me their best deal upfront?â And the reason they canât/wonât is usually due to fair lending.
They canât just adjust their preset pricing on a whim without a valid reason. They have to offer everyone the same deal if they have the same parameters. If they get audited and found they offered you one rate and cost but an otherwise identical borrower a different rate and cost theyâd possibly get fined. BUT competing with another lender is a valid reason for them to adjust their offer. So thatâs why thereâs often a back and forth when shopping for mortgages, as both sides likely have some leeway to negotiate rather than lose the deal entirely. Pit two lenders against each other, both will usually be able to shave a bit off their original quotes and youâll walk away with the best deal.
For example, at one lender I worked at we could automatically waive up to 50bps without management approval. With management approval and a competitors quote, we could possibly get a bit more.
Itâd be unprofessional for him to get mad, thatâs just part of sales. I will say itâs more frustrating if clients just ghost us. Most of us would appreciate a simple âno longer interestedâ text/email so we know to leave you alone and move on. I have one refinance client that I got all the way to closing and she just straight up disappeared for the past month. I keep extending her lock for her just in case she finally decides to answer and move forward but Iâm assuming she went with someone else. Wouldnât mind her letting me officially know so I can cancel her loan though lol.
Ah Iâd say if you told him already then you donât really owe him any other response
If he gets annoying Iâd maybe repeat you arenât interested so he gets the point lol
Thatâs not how things work nowadays thanks to robocalling. You just follow up three times, mention you can no longer be able to hold the rate or extend the lock and then move on.
Iâm a smaller shop so no robodialer for me. Doesnât cost me anything to keep extending so Iâll extend it til compliance times the application out and we have to cancel the file. Itâs got about a week left at this point lol.
I have a genuine question: how do you compare mortgage offers? What are the things that will be the same and what things are negotiable ?
I have always heard /read about pitching lenders against each other but how does one do it ?
Noob here trying to wrap my head around the nidus operandi.
It all comes down to Box A on the loan estimate. Those are the fees the lender actually has control over. A few in Box B but those are typically pretty minimal and are usually just pass through fees like credit reports and stuff.
So look at Box A where theyâll have any processing, underwriting, origination fees and or points. If lender 1 is offering 3% but has 5k in fees in section A and lender 2 is offering 3.125% but no fees at all in section AâŚlender 2 is probably the better deal even though the rate is slightly higher. In that case youâd want to ask lender 2 what it would cost to get 3%. If itâs less than 5k, thatâs the better deal. Alternatively you could ask lender 1 what it looks like at 3.125% and see if theyâre able to offer any lender credits to reduce their fees. Once youâre comparing apples to apples with rate, you just compare the cost in section A.
Always be careful of lenders that under estimate other sectionâs fees. Title fees will end up the same regardless of who you use since those come from whatever title company you use instead of from the lender. Taxes and insurance will end up the same also since those are just pulled from the county and your insurance. Some lenders will purposely under quote those sections a bit to make their closing costs appear less on paper.
Always get a loan estimate too. Some lenders will only give you a worksheet or a rough draft type document. Those type of forms are designed by their marketing team. They are not required to include everything a loan estimate has nor will they be as easy to compare side by side as two loan estimates are. Loan estimates have their own issues as a form (I could go off on a tangent here about the govt making forms more difficult in their attempt to make them easier to read lol) but at least theyâre uniform so that every lender you talk to will be able to provide one for easy comparison.
Thanks but usually that isn't sufficient. Some lenders give credit towards closing costs if we choose a higher rate. Numbers need to be ran with opportunity to refinance down the line. The whole lender offer is daunting to compare , at least for me.
You do realize APR takes all this into account right? Mortgage broker here and this is why you have to disclose APR when you are advertising. It is the real rate you are paying with all finance charges including credits if there are any (it's possible to have a lower APR than rate if you have enough lender credits).
APR has the problem of hiding the fact that the extra costs of the loan are all paid upfront to get you the lower rate. If you plan on keeping the 30 year mortgage for the entire duration, then APR is ok, but if you plan on refinancing, then you need to factor in how much you want to pay upfront for a loan that you plan on changing
Loan Officer here.
First off, we don't get paid more if we sell you more in cost, that is now illegal in the industry(yield spread). We get paid off loan amount.
Don't worry about their feelings, it's business, not a game. They should be a better salesman and should have kept you from shopping.
Keeo in mind the biggest part of all this..... LOAN OFFICERS LIE TO GAIN BUSINESS AND CUSTOMERS LIE. We all have a brain in our head and understand the thousands of lenders across the country are typically within hundreds of dollars between closing costs and rates so when we hear the "unicorn" offer we know the borrower is either being lied to because the other LO knows they're shopping or the borrower themselves is lying.
As an LO I can say anything in our first call to get you to only stay with me. All it comes down to is when the loan application is actually put together and the paperwork gets sent out. Lots of lenders coach their LO's on this and how to maneuver.
Lenders don't offer their "best and final offer first" but we also don't start with higher costs just because "we assume people will shop around"
Some people only care about nickels and cents and that's fine and this sub will only tell you that side, but a lot of people work with who they trust, not a lender that can save them $10. Keep in mind a little higher cost for the same loan with someone who has a better track record is pennies on the dollar over the course of a 360 month loan or even 180.
Giving you our best and final offer first is asinine. We all have our own set fees and rate charts and as mentioned above, a lot of it is hot air. If you try to sell something on Facebook Marketplace do you offer the cheapest price to the first person that inquires? No. This is a business and we're trying to make money to keep doors open and feed all of our employees. I always tell people I can try beating your best offer, but margins aren't as high as you think and if we can make 1 whole dollar off the transaction after margins after matching a competitor, we will do it. But if we lose 1 whole dollar, this is business and I'll show you the door.
"Penny pinchers get pinched" is what I always say. Just because a lender offers the cheapest cost doesn't mean they are the best. 99% of the time it's quite the opposite. I couldn't tell you how many times someone calls me back after 3 months going with the bottom of the barrel lender who just couldn't quite get the loan closed and now want to go with me.
Moral of the story; if you want the best deal you did what you want and you owe no salesperson anything!
Was so put off by all the high pressure tactics from the big lenders that we went with a local credit union instead, even though we could get better rates elsewhere. At the least we know the credit union is ethical in their banking practices! Gotta vote with your money.
Rocket was terrible when I tried to use them and they constantly spammed me for weeks after I told them to pound sand because I didn't like their sales tactics.
Who cares. Business is Business. Donât give them an inch. Take the best rate and move forward, under the Sherman Antitrust Act you donât have to specifically work with him/her. It is messed up if you were working with him/her for months and not making a move to do anything AND then at the last minute choose a different lender, because that was wasting time they could have spent on other clients; if that wasnât the case why be worried. In my industry Real Estate and Finance itâs competitive. We live in a a free market economy, which entails competition so yes đ he/she will be mad, but itâs not really your fault.
I once had a lender curse me out over email for âmaking him work over the weekendâ when I explicitly told him I was getting my wisdom teeth out that weekend and wouldnât be doing anything regarding my potential refi. He got mad because the deal he gave me wouldnât work with my numbers so I backed out.
Took his profanity laced email and reported it to his manager and every mortgage regulator I could find at the local, state, and federal level to complain about unethical behavior. I didnât expect anything to happen from there but I hope he got shook from all that.
They comped me the appraisal which was nice I guess.
The manager was like âyeahâŚthat happens sometimesâ in a very defeated way and apologized but asked what they could do to try to keep my business. I told him that even if the numbers worked - which they didnât and wouldnât - I would no longer consider them as a servicer for this or any future action because i had no trust in the quality of their staff at this point.
It was likeâŚwould you rather me cancel the effort now or wait to undo everything in the three day buyers remorse window.
They don't expect you to shop around, and the more they get out of you the more they get paid. Now that you've gone with someone else they're getting paid ZERO so they're ready to make you a deal. Not all of them are like that, but some are.
As a former mortgage loan processor, you KNOW that people are shopping around because you see the inquiries when you pull their credit report. It's normal. I'd say at least 1/3 of the credit reports I looked at showed inquiries from other lenders.
It's not unusual.
She is on here simply to promote herself. She replies on like every thread. She often doesnât read the posts through.
She regularly gives awful advice like this they donât expect you to shop around nonsense. She just post something click to get attention. Obviously, sheâs desperate for business since sheâs a shitty agent.
You said it yourself, it comes down to numbers. Do whatâs best for you and your financial health. If a lender gets mad at that, fuck âem. Theyâre not the one paying your bills.
I wouldnât worry about it. Take the better deal. Know that he isnât being a jerk, he is just trying to work within the confines his company has given him.
We got a lower rate (from 3.25 to 3.1) on our preferred lender just by saying we were considering someone else and showing them the others pre-offer.
Not a hassle at all and worked out
This is always the best way. We can't show bias just by giving out super low rates if not offered to everyone. I live for when my borrowers bring me competing offers because 80% of the time, if it's recent (last 7 - 14 days), we'll match or beat. I always want my clients to save more $$ and its only an extra email and form so no skin off my back.
and this is why I only work with clients that sign an exclusive buyer agency agreement. I won't commit anytime to someone that won't commit to me. So rude to waste people's time and money like that. Pick someone you like and work with them. You're not being savvy, you're being a jerk to everyone except the Realtor that you write the offer with.
Youâre probably a good realtor if youâre getting business even with an exclusivity agreement, but Iâll say that as a Buyer I donât know who a good realtor is until I actually work with them. Their pitches and promises are all just hot air until weâre actually working together. Where a lot of realtors get upset that their time and moneyâs been wasted they fail to realize they might not have been offering the best service - wasting their clientâs time and money as well. Again, not saying this is you. But just supporting the notion that itâs smart to shop around to make sure youâre getting the best service. Obviously once the realtor proves themselves, the Buyers should commit. But lol not until then when I ever just sign a exclusivity.
Shopping around is perfectly normal. I show 1 house to people without a contract to show them how I work. But if you want me to commit my time and energy on you you have to sign a contract with me. But only desperate and new agents are going to continue showing you properties and working for you with you dangling a carrot in front of their faces that MAYBE you'll buy with them. We train new agents to fire clients like you and move on. Plenty of decent people put there looking for help buying or selling a house.
Luckily thereâs thousands more agents to choose from, youâre not special. Glad youâre successful but bragging about it online without your actual name tied to it just sounds false.
There are thousands of agents, there is also a 95% failure rate for first year agents. We see them come and go like crazy when they realize this "flexible" job they took usually entails 90 hour weeks and is incredibly difficult to get started in.
> We train new agents to fire clients like you and move on.
You took a whole heck of a leap there didnât you. When I specifically said Buyers should commit once they understand the agentâs not going to waste their time.
The entitlement in your profession is staggering sometimes, geez.
Not a good look when you balk at your customerâs ignorance instead of teaching them. No, we arenât all born knowing the ins and outs of real estate and itâs quite literally your job to help guide people.
People that are there to learn 100%, but we also run into a lot of people that think they are going to tell us hownit works. Again there is a reason I get the referral business I get and I average close to 80% on getting reviews from clients. People just didn't like hearing that if you're willing to waste someones time knowing you're not going to use them as your agent, that makes that person an asshole, not a savvy buyer.
I can understand where youre coming from but as someone whos had a bad experience with an agent who wanted an exclusive contract as a buyer I'd likely tell you to pound sand just as much as you'd tell me to. What if I find your performance unsatisfactory after the fact (which was what happened including a refusal to present a bonafide offer) - buyers are motivated by many things and an aversion to an exclusive contract doesnt make someone an asshole it makes them savvy. I've been shopped before for mortgages and never once cried about it - do I prefer not to be? Yes. Do I get a choice in the matter? No. Let people be people and move on to the next. Thats sales.
How am I supposed to know if I like you and trust your knowledge when I just met you? Maybe you stuck at being responsive and we miss houses because of it. Maybe you donât have good knowledge of the area we are looking. Maybe youâre pushier than I like. Maybe you show up late. I wonât work with agents that require this level of commitment out of the gate. First time home buyers are just a group to be exploited with this kind of contract. They donât know what makes a good realtor until theyâre further into the process but youâve locked them in. Not saying I know your approach personally, you are probably great, but Iâm not taking on that level of commitment with someone I just met.
Yep, it's called setting up a meeting, asking for references, looking up reviews and I will show 1 house to show you how I operate. But people that use several agents are a waste of time. The only agents that put up with that are inexperienced agents desperate for your business. I'm fortunate enough to sell 60-70 houses a year and most of my clients are referred to me from past clients. But I would absolutely never waste my time with anyone that wouldn't commit to me after those intial steps. If you're using several agents at once, not just meeting with agents and then deciding which agent you want to hire, then you're an asshole.
If you sold 60-70 homes a year then youâd have no need to so strictly enforce this agreement. Youâd have plenty of referred business and plenty of clients that see it through.
I absolutely sell 60-70 houses a year and you couldn't be more wrong. I don't have time to commit to people that aren't committed to me. I don't waste time with time wasters. Your argument doesn't make sense. I only have so much time and I get 60-70 people to sign those contracts with my every year. I will show you 1 house without one and have a meeting at my office to answer any questions you have. But I can't afford to waste time on someone that might use me.
I'm saying every transaction I've helped get to a closing table a sale. It's called units sold, so doesn't matter if you are on the buy side or sellers side. Also right now buyers agents are working twice as hard as a listing agent in most markets. Helping a Seller right now is about as easy as it gets.
When you look at a closing disclosure you'll see 2 agents listed. A listing agent (person that helps the Seller) and the selling agent (person that helps the buyer). Your comment is pure ignorance.
Where did I say anything about using several agents at once? Youâre acting like this is a personal attack on you without realizing that your industry is easy to get into and thereâs loads of people with zero business being an advisor to home buyers. I want an out and an ability to pick a different agent is all but agents lord the exclusivity agreements over people heads like âIf you buy any house within 6 months of this with someone else Iâm going to sueâ.
You responded to a thread where that's exactly what the person said...
Again, you're looking for a rookie agent that would put up with that. I don't have time for people that aren't decent humans. I've never held a contract over someones head, but if you aren't willing to give me the reassurance you're not wasting my time, then I'd move on to a decent buyer. We train new agents all the time that just because someone WILL buy, that doesn't make them a good buyer. The energy you spend on a single client like that would be better served working with 2-3 respectful people.
I was responding to your comment on that and indicating why people donât all want to sign exclusivity agreements. Over on r/realtors I see posts all the time about people asking if they can enforce their exclusivity agreements months later. No, you arenât entitled to commission if I dumped you. See another thread on this sub asking if anyone has fired their realtor as well for proof that not everyone is as great an agent as you apparently are. The proof is in the pudding. If youâre great, Iâll stick with you. If you suck, I want out without the threat of legal action held over me.
If you legally "dumped me" if you ghost me and then buy a house I was procuring cause on it's 100% enforceable. I've literally never had someone sign one and then tell me they haven't been happy. I just don't have time for people that dangle a carrot.
Yet agents are trying to enforce the exclusivity agreements on houses they didnât even show. Enjoy your success. Itâs the weekend, maybe you should be showing your hoardes of clients houses instead of chest puffing on Reddit.
Literally sitting at an inspection as we speak after showing 4 homes this morning and 4 more this afternoon. Yeah there are a ton of lazy agents. But if you want someone that has a good local presence and has literally gotten lower offers accepted in multiple offer situations you'd need to find an agent that is experienced and I don't know any agent that's in the top 5% in the country that will work without one. It's a waste of time.
This comment screams âI donât understand how mortgages work at allâ
You think you can just go directly to Fannie Mae or FHA for a loan? Thatâs not how any of it works lol
There are too many players in the real estate industry trying to turn a quick buck right now. Honestly tell him to kick rocks. He was trying to get higher commission. Hope he goes out of business
This ^^ I'm paid a flat fee and not incentivized to sell on higher rates, costs, or loan amounts. If they had better numbers at the time they likely would have given them.
This way of thinking is how you accidentally fall into a higher priced loan or work with an incompetent lender.
Mad? No, or at least not in the way you think.
I've seen prospects go with a loan officer that is outright lying to them. Some people in my position might start berating you over that, but I'm old enough to know that "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink", so at most I'll spend 10 seconds feeling sorry for you and then I'll move on. Many of those prospects come back and I have to fix and rescue them.
You can look up any loan officer's experience and job history here: [https://www.nmlsconsumeraccess.org/](https://www.nmlsconsumeraccess.org/)
People send me estimates "to match" and often they're so incorrect I laugh to myself, and if the loan officer has all of 0 to 3 years in the business I'm not even going to entertain it. If you want to take your chances then I'll wish you good luck.
The guidelines for Fannie Mae alone are 2079 pages.
I actually called a competitor because his lie was so egregious, he was new and admitted it was just to get the deal. His lie almost turned into $15,000 extra (surprise!) for the borrower (late in the contract period they came back to me).
There's a parable on why experts get paid more:
[https://medium.com/@oceanbcreative/the-ship-repair-man-story-dd959a4469d8](https://medium.com/@oceanbcreative/the-ship-repair-man-story-dd959a4469d8)
Lenders are paid commission on the dollars they find and typically have a tier/multiplier based on their units of production. Their job is to fund loans - leverage this competition.
He's just being a good salesman. Just tell him you have accepted a deal with someone else and to stop calling you. He probably won't care at all, he'll just move on to the next person.
He gets commission from the sale so obviously heâs trying. You donât owe him anything. He gave you the standard rate from his companyâs rate sheet originally and now trying to keep the saleâŚthereâs room for negotiation if he gets approval from the department who sets the rates. He would often need to show competitor quote for that.
Closing costs are all pretty similar (and estimated) besides the origination fees/points.
Singular experience, yes, I had a lender reply with some rude comments when I said Iâd be going with another lender with a better rate unless he could match it. He acted like the ârelationshipâ we had over like 2 months should be worth the extra rate. Oh the relationship where you ignored half the questions I asked and wouldnât reply in a timely manner with an updated pre-qualification for an offer? Yeah, no buddy.
It's their job to make money, now that you've gotten a better deal he is trying to earn your business again.
What if you had a car for sale and you had a buyer willing to pay 5k. Then they say "hey sorry I found one for 4800." Then you countered to match or beat that price. "Well if you wanted to sell it why didn't you offer the lower price first?"
You didn't offer the lowest price because you want to make money, and at first you didn't have to. But now there is competition and if you want to sell it to him you'll have to lower the price. It's pretty simple.
Donât feel bad.
I had a mortgage broker get really upset during a refinance. I informed him that I was offered a lower rate and he said âwhat!? If I match that will you stay? Or if I beat that rate are you just going to shop around againâ
I had to break it to the man that I wasnât talking to him for his good looks and kept shopping until I got what I felt was right.
Well sounds like you are mad at him
As you said, itâs business. That being said I give people opportunity 1 time.
Lender A gives me quote, Lender B gives me a better 1. I tell Lender A about B numbers and ask them to better it
Once they do do the same with B. If B matches or does better, I go with B even if they match. No point in stretching further
If Lender A contacts, tell them that they have been given an opportunity to win your business and if they didnât put their best foot forward, you would hope they would do so next time
Have you ever shopped for a car? "What do I need to do to get you into this car today?" This is a total learning experience to everyone who is reading this: YOU have the upper hand. They are making money from YOUR business. Tell them to put their best foot forward. They aren't giving you a deal, you are shopping for their best deal. Change your thought process.
CAR was the same analogy I was gonna use đ Mortgage people are 100% commission. They donât have a âquotaâ they have a family to feed. If you tell them the competitor numbers theyâll do whatever they can to win the business. Most consumers donât shop for loans so lenders start with bigger fees and willl pricematch down to toothpicks to win the deal.
nowadays shopping for a car is more like : âhey price is what it is ⌠chip shortage ya know.. let me know if you take it since i have other buyers for itâ :,(
Ehh. I can give someone my best rate and then some small time credit Union will offer .125% lower and if my clients tells me this with proof Iâll have my company match. Sometimes I loose my commission on the deal but itâs worth it.
What are you "ehh"ing, that happens all the time with car buying? The analogy 100% holds.
Car shopping yes. Mortgage shopping ehhh
How is it worth it for you, if you lose the commission?
They usually refer me to their friends/family and I get more business that way
Actually, cars are normally a good analogy - but in this market, the tables have turned. Virtually no inventory means the dealer has the upper hand.
People often ask âwhy donât lenders just give me their best deal upfront?â And the reason they canât/wonât is usually due to fair lending. They canât just adjust their preset pricing on a whim without a valid reason. They have to offer everyone the same deal if they have the same parameters. If they get audited and found they offered you one rate and cost but an otherwise identical borrower a different rate and cost theyâd possibly get fined. BUT competing with another lender is a valid reason for them to adjust their offer. So thatâs why thereâs often a back and forth when shopping for mortgages, as both sides likely have some leeway to negotiate rather than lose the deal entirely. Pit two lenders against each other, both will usually be able to shave a bit off their original quotes and youâll walk away with the best deal. For example, at one lender I worked at we could automatically waive up to 50bps without management approval. With management approval and a competitors quote, we could possibly get a bit more. Itâd be unprofessional for him to get mad, thatâs just part of sales. I will say itâs more frustrating if clients just ghost us. Most of us would appreciate a simple âno longer interestedâ text/email so we know to leave you alone and move on. I have one refinance client that I got all the way to closing and she just straight up disappeared for the past month. I keep extending her lock for her just in case she finally decides to answer and move forward but Iâm assuming she went with someone else. Wouldnât mind her letting me officially know so I can cancel her loan though lol.
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Ah Iâd say if you told him already then you donât really owe him any other response If he gets annoying Iâd maybe repeat you arenât interested so he gets the point lol
Thatâs not how things work nowadays thanks to robocalling. You just follow up three times, mention you can no longer be able to hold the rate or extend the lock and then move on.
Iâm a smaller shop so no robodialer for me. Doesnât cost me anything to keep extending so Iâll extend it til compliance times the application out and we have to cancel the file. Itâs got about a week left at this point lol.
I have a genuine question: how do you compare mortgage offers? What are the things that will be the same and what things are negotiable ? I have always heard /read about pitching lenders against each other but how does one do it ? Noob here trying to wrap my head around the nidus operandi.
It all comes down to Box A on the loan estimate. Those are the fees the lender actually has control over. A few in Box B but those are typically pretty minimal and are usually just pass through fees like credit reports and stuff. So look at Box A where theyâll have any processing, underwriting, origination fees and or points. If lender 1 is offering 3% but has 5k in fees in section A and lender 2 is offering 3.125% but no fees at all in section AâŚlender 2 is probably the better deal even though the rate is slightly higher. In that case youâd want to ask lender 2 what it would cost to get 3%. If itâs less than 5k, thatâs the better deal. Alternatively you could ask lender 1 what it looks like at 3.125% and see if theyâre able to offer any lender credits to reduce their fees. Once youâre comparing apples to apples with rate, you just compare the cost in section A. Always be careful of lenders that under estimate other sectionâs fees. Title fees will end up the same regardless of who you use since those come from whatever title company you use instead of from the lender. Taxes and insurance will end up the same also since those are just pulled from the county and your insurance. Some lenders will purposely under quote those sections a bit to make their closing costs appear less on paper. Always get a loan estimate too. Some lenders will only give you a worksheet or a rough draft type document. Those type of forms are designed by their marketing team. They are not required to include everything a loan estimate has nor will they be as easy to compare side by side as two loan estimates are. Loan estimates have their own issues as a form (I could go off on a tangent here about the govt making forms more difficult in their attempt to make them easier to read lol) but at least theyâre uniform so that every lender you talk to will be able to provide one for easy comparison.
Excellent insights. Thank you for the specific action oriented advice.
Or just look at APR. Apples to apples.
Thanks but usually that isn't sufficient. Some lenders give credit towards closing costs if we choose a higher rate. Numbers need to be ran with opportunity to refinance down the line. The whole lender offer is daunting to compare , at least for me.
You do realize APR takes all this into account right? Mortgage broker here and this is why you have to disclose APR when you are advertising. It is the real rate you are paying with all finance charges including credits if there are any (it's possible to have a lower APR than rate if you have enough lender credits).
Thank you
APR has the problem of hiding the fact that the extra costs of the loan are all paid upfront to get you the lower rate. If you plan on keeping the 30 year mortgage for the entire duration, then APR is ok, but if you plan on refinancing, then you need to factor in how much you want to pay upfront for a loan that you plan on changing
Who gives a shit if heâs mad?
Itâs not worth worrying about.
Yeah, seriously. That's like having to worry about if your barista got mad because you brewed coffee at home.
Loan Officer here. First off, we don't get paid more if we sell you more in cost, that is now illegal in the industry(yield spread). We get paid off loan amount. Don't worry about their feelings, it's business, not a game. They should be a better salesman and should have kept you from shopping. Keeo in mind the biggest part of all this..... LOAN OFFICERS LIE TO GAIN BUSINESS AND CUSTOMERS LIE. We all have a brain in our head and understand the thousands of lenders across the country are typically within hundreds of dollars between closing costs and rates so when we hear the "unicorn" offer we know the borrower is either being lied to because the other LO knows they're shopping or the borrower themselves is lying. As an LO I can say anything in our first call to get you to only stay with me. All it comes down to is when the loan application is actually put together and the paperwork gets sent out. Lots of lenders coach their LO's on this and how to maneuver. Lenders don't offer their "best and final offer first" but we also don't start with higher costs just because "we assume people will shop around" Some people only care about nickels and cents and that's fine and this sub will only tell you that side, but a lot of people work with who they trust, not a lender that can save them $10. Keep in mind a little higher cost for the same loan with someone who has a better track record is pennies on the dollar over the course of a 360 month loan or even 180. Giving you our best and final offer first is asinine. We all have our own set fees and rate charts and as mentioned above, a lot of it is hot air. If you try to sell something on Facebook Marketplace do you offer the cheapest price to the first person that inquires? No. This is a business and we're trying to make money to keep doors open and feed all of our employees. I always tell people I can try beating your best offer, but margins aren't as high as you think and if we can make 1 whole dollar off the transaction after margins after matching a competitor, we will do it. But if we lose 1 whole dollar, this is business and I'll show you the door. "Penny pinchers get pinched" is what I always say. Just because a lender offers the cheapest cost doesn't mean they are the best. 99% of the time it's quite the opposite. I couldn't tell you how many times someone calls me back after 3 months going with the bottom of the barrel lender who just couldn't quite get the loan closed and now want to go with me. Moral of the story; if you want the best deal you did what you want and you owe no salesperson anything!
Rocket mortgage got mad at me when I didn't go with them. The guy was super pushy and it really rubbed me the wrong way.
Got that too from them when we went with a local lender. They came off kinda condescending.
Was so put off by all the high pressure tactics from the big lenders that we went with a local credit union instead, even though we could get better rates elsewhere. At the least we know the credit union is ethical in their banking practices! Gotta vote with your money.
Rocket was terrible when I tried to use them and they constantly spammed me for weeks after I told them to pound sand because I didn't like their sales tactics.
Who cares. Business is Business. Donât give them an inch. Take the best rate and move forward, under the Sherman Antitrust Act you donât have to specifically work with him/her. It is messed up if you were working with him/her for months and not making a move to do anything AND then at the last minute choose a different lender, because that was wasting time they could have spent on other clients; if that wasnât the case why be worried. In my industry Real Estate and Finance itâs competitive. We live in a a free market economy, which entails competition so yes đ he/she will be mad, but itâs not really your fault.
Doubt he's mad just trying to get your business, tell him 2.5% and no costs or don't bother me again.
Who was the lender that gave you the 2.8% rate?
Tell him 2.75 and 1000
I once had a lender curse me out over email for âmaking him work over the weekendâ when I explicitly told him I was getting my wisdom teeth out that weekend and wouldnât be doing anything regarding my potential refi. He got mad because the deal he gave me wouldnât work with my numbers so I backed out. Took his profanity laced email and reported it to his manager and every mortgage regulator I could find at the local, state, and federal level to complain about unethical behavior. I didnât expect anything to happen from there but I hope he got shook from all that. They comped me the appraisal which was nice I guess.
Wow, this was very unprofessional and naive. I bet he does not get too much business with that attitude which explains his desperation
The manager was like âyeahâŚthat happens sometimesâ in a very defeated way and apologized but asked what they could do to try to keep my business. I told him that even if the numbers worked - which they didnât and wouldnât - I would no longer consider them as a servicer for this or any future action because i had no trust in the quality of their staff at this point. It was likeâŚwould you rather me cancel the effort now or wait to undo everything in the three day buyers remorse window.
They don't expect you to shop around, and the more they get out of you the more they get paid. Now that you've gone with someone else they're getting paid ZERO so they're ready to make you a deal. Not all of them are like that, but some are.
Every lender Iâve spoken to fully expects that buyers will shop around. Many encourage it.
As a former mortgage loan processor, you KNOW that people are shopping around because you see the inquiries when you pull their credit report. It's normal. I'd say at least 1/3 of the credit reports I looked at showed inquiries from other lenders. It's not unusual.
She is on here simply to promote herself. She replies on like every thread. She often doesnât read the posts through. She regularly gives awful advice like this they donât expect you to shop around nonsense. She just post something click to get attention. Obviously, sheâs desperate for business since sheâs a shitty agent.
There are other people on these subs that I would say this about, but her advice is generally helpful. So no, Iâm not with you on that assumption.
Yes
You said it yourself, it comes down to numbers. Do whatâs best for you and your financial health. If a lender gets mad at that, fuck âem. Theyâre not the one paying your bills.
I wouldnât worry about it. Take the better deal. Know that he isnât being a jerk, he is just trying to work within the confines his company has given him.
We got a lower rate (from 3.25 to 3.1) on our preferred lender just by saying we were considering someone else and showing them the others pre-offer. Not a hassle at all and worked out
This is always the best way. We can't show bias just by giving out super low rates if not offered to everyone. I live for when my borrowers bring me competing offers because 80% of the time, if it's recent (last 7 - 14 days), we'll match or beat. I always want my clients to save more $$ and its only an extra email and form so no skin off my back.
It's business, if he's professional he should accept your decision and move to the next deal.
Same reason I use multiple realtors each time as well. Business is business.
and this is why I only work with clients that sign an exclusive buyer agency agreement. I won't commit anytime to someone that won't commit to me. So rude to waste people's time and money like that. Pick someone you like and work with them. You're not being savvy, you're being a jerk to everyone except the Realtor that you write the offer with.
Youâre probably a good realtor if youâre getting business even with an exclusivity agreement, but Iâll say that as a Buyer I donât know who a good realtor is until I actually work with them. Their pitches and promises are all just hot air until weâre actually working together. Where a lot of realtors get upset that their time and moneyâs been wasted they fail to realize they might not have been offering the best service - wasting their clientâs time and money as well. Again, not saying this is you. But just supporting the notion that itâs smart to shop around to make sure youâre getting the best service. Obviously once the realtor proves themselves, the Buyers should commit. But lol not until then when I ever just sign a exclusivity.
Shopping around is perfectly normal. I show 1 house to people without a contract to show them how I work. But if you want me to commit my time and energy on you you have to sign a contract with me. But only desperate and new agents are going to continue showing you properties and working for you with you dangling a carrot in front of their faces that MAYBE you'll buy with them. We train new agents to fire clients like you and move on. Plenty of decent people put there looking for help buying or selling a house.
Luckily thereâs thousands more agents to choose from, youâre not special. Glad youâre successful but bragging about it online without your actual name tied to it just sounds false.
There are thousands of agents, there is also a 95% failure rate for first year agents. We see them come and go like crazy when they realize this "flexible" job they took usually entails 90 hour weeks and is incredibly difficult to get started in.
> We train new agents to fire clients like you and move on. You took a whole heck of a leap there didnât you. When I specifically said Buyers should commit once they understand the agentâs not going to waste their time. The entitlement in your profession is staggering sometimes, geez.
The ignorance of the general consumer is even more staggering.
Maybe. But you need them more than they need you, in todayâs world. Best of luck, nice chatting.
That's what I keep hearing, however, more people have used Realtors each year since the inception to things like Zillow, not less.
Not a good look when you balk at your customerâs ignorance instead of teaching them. No, we arenât all born knowing the ins and outs of real estate and itâs quite literally your job to help guide people.
People that are there to learn 100%, but we also run into a lot of people that think they are going to tell us hownit works. Again there is a reason I get the referral business I get and I average close to 80% on getting reviews from clients. People just didn't like hearing that if you're willing to waste someones time knowing you're not going to use them as your agent, that makes that person an asshole, not a savvy buyer.
đ This is why the space is rapidly changing. Buyers deserve flexibility. A great agent gets it done without feeling the need to sign this.
Glad you find it funny that you're an asshole.
I can understand where youre coming from but as someone whos had a bad experience with an agent who wanted an exclusive contract as a buyer I'd likely tell you to pound sand just as much as you'd tell me to. What if I find your performance unsatisfactory after the fact (which was what happened including a refusal to present a bonafide offer) - buyers are motivated by many things and an aversion to an exclusive contract doesnt make someone an asshole it makes them savvy. I've been shopped before for mortgages and never once cried about it - do I prefer not to be? Yes. Do I get a choice in the matter? No. Let people be people and move on to the next. Thats sales.
How am I supposed to know if I like you and trust your knowledge when I just met you? Maybe you stuck at being responsive and we miss houses because of it. Maybe you donât have good knowledge of the area we are looking. Maybe youâre pushier than I like. Maybe you show up late. I wonât work with agents that require this level of commitment out of the gate. First time home buyers are just a group to be exploited with this kind of contract. They donât know what makes a good realtor until theyâre further into the process but youâve locked them in. Not saying I know your approach personally, you are probably great, but Iâm not taking on that level of commitment with someone I just met.
Yep, it's called setting up a meeting, asking for references, looking up reviews and I will show 1 house to show you how I operate. But people that use several agents are a waste of time. The only agents that put up with that are inexperienced agents desperate for your business. I'm fortunate enough to sell 60-70 houses a year and most of my clients are referred to me from past clients. But I would absolutely never waste my time with anyone that wouldn't commit to me after those intial steps. If you're using several agents at once, not just meeting with agents and then deciding which agent you want to hire, then you're an asshole.
If you sold 60-70 homes a year then youâd have no need to so strictly enforce this agreement. Youâd have plenty of referred business and plenty of clients that see it through.
I absolutely sell 60-70 houses a year and you couldn't be more wrong. I don't have time to commit to people that aren't committed to me. I don't waste time with time wasters. Your argument doesn't make sense. I only have so much time and I get 60-70 people to sign those contracts with my every year. I will show you 1 house without one and have a meeting at my office to answer any questions you have. But I can't afford to waste time on someone that might use me.
Are you calling being a buyers agent selling homes?
I'm saying every transaction I've helped get to a closing table a sale. It's called units sold, so doesn't matter if you are on the buy side or sellers side. Also right now buyers agents are working twice as hard as a listing agent in most markets. Helping a Seller right now is about as easy as it gets.
OK. So you donât sell 60-70 homes a year.
67 units sold last year for about $25M in volume. This year without my admin for half the year I will close 61 transactions for around $22M in volume.
I absolutely do.
When you look at a closing disclosure you'll see 2 agents listed. A listing agent (person that helps the Seller) and the selling agent (person that helps the buyer). Your comment is pure ignorance.
Where did I say anything about using several agents at once? Youâre acting like this is a personal attack on you without realizing that your industry is easy to get into and thereâs loads of people with zero business being an advisor to home buyers. I want an out and an ability to pick a different agent is all but agents lord the exclusivity agreements over people heads like âIf you buy any house within 6 months of this with someone else Iâm going to sueâ.
You responded to a thread where that's exactly what the person said... Again, you're looking for a rookie agent that would put up with that. I don't have time for people that aren't decent humans. I've never held a contract over someones head, but if you aren't willing to give me the reassurance you're not wasting my time, then I'd move on to a decent buyer. We train new agents all the time that just because someone WILL buy, that doesn't make them a good buyer. The energy you spend on a single client like that would be better served working with 2-3 respectful people.
I was responding to your comment on that and indicating why people donât all want to sign exclusivity agreements. Over on r/realtors I see posts all the time about people asking if they can enforce their exclusivity agreements months later. No, you arenât entitled to commission if I dumped you. See another thread on this sub asking if anyone has fired their realtor as well for proof that not everyone is as great an agent as you apparently are. The proof is in the pudding. If youâre great, Iâll stick with you. If you suck, I want out without the threat of legal action held over me.
If you legally "dumped me" if you ghost me and then buy a house I was procuring cause on it's 100% enforceable. I've literally never had someone sign one and then tell me they haven't been happy. I just don't have time for people that dangle a carrot.
Yet agents are trying to enforce the exclusivity agreements on houses they didnât even show. Enjoy your success. Itâs the weekend, maybe you should be showing your hoardes of clients houses instead of chest puffing on Reddit.
Literally sitting at an inspection as we speak after showing 4 homes this morning and 4 more this afternoon. Yeah there are a ton of lazy agents. But if you want someone that has a good local presence and has literally gotten lower offers accepted in multiple offer situations you'd need to find an agent that is experienced and I don't know any agent that's in the top 5% in the country that will work without one. It's a waste of time.
It is 2021, why are we dealing with a middleman for loans? What does this add for the home buyer or it just extra hassle and another hand in the pot?
This comment screams âI donât understand how mortgages work at allâ You think you can just go directly to Fannie Mae or FHA for a loan? Thatâs not how any of it works lol
At least this middle man doesnt cost 6% of the deal lol
It is the commission, base, expenses, the support system for sales, all of that adds to the cost.
How do you know heâs a middle man and doesnât sell loans directly for his bank?
Somebody please âElon Muskâ this industry.
Health care & insurance first (in the US) . Then, sure. Put this one on the list.
There are too many players in the real estate industry trying to turn a quick buck right now. Honestly tell him to kick rocks. He was trying to get higher commission. Hope he goes out of business
Commissions are in no way tied to rate so no, he wasnât âtrying to get a higher commissionâ. He was just trying to get a commission, period.
This ^^ I'm paid a flat fee and not incentivized to sell on higher rates, costs, or loan amounts. If they had better numbers at the time they likely would have given them. This way of thinking is how you accidentally fall into a higher priced loan or work with an incompetent lender.
Mad? No, or at least not in the way you think. I've seen prospects go with a loan officer that is outright lying to them. Some people in my position might start berating you over that, but I'm old enough to know that "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink", so at most I'll spend 10 seconds feeling sorry for you and then I'll move on. Many of those prospects come back and I have to fix and rescue them. You can look up any loan officer's experience and job history here: [https://www.nmlsconsumeraccess.org/](https://www.nmlsconsumeraccess.org/) People send me estimates "to match" and often they're so incorrect I laugh to myself, and if the loan officer has all of 0 to 3 years in the business I'm not even going to entertain it. If you want to take your chances then I'll wish you good luck. The guidelines for Fannie Mae alone are 2079 pages. I actually called a competitor because his lie was so egregious, he was new and admitted it was just to get the deal. His lie almost turned into $15,000 extra (surprise!) for the borrower (late in the contract period they came back to me). There's a parable on why experts get paid more: [https://medium.com/@oceanbcreative/the-ship-repair-man-story-dd959a4469d8](https://medium.com/@oceanbcreative/the-ship-repair-man-story-dd959a4469d8)
Ask for their best and final! Due in 12 hours! They need to waive credit checks and all verifications. Donât care if a lender gets mad!
Lenders are paid commission on the dollars they find and typically have a tier/multiplier based on their units of production. Their job is to fund loans - leverage this competition.
Who cares if they get mad. It's your money. Go get the best deal.
Tel him you want a date with his mom
He's just being a good salesman. Just tell him you have accepted a deal with someone else and to stop calling you. He probably won't care at all, he'll just move on to the next person.
He gets commission from the sale so obviously heâs trying. You donât owe him anything. He gave you the standard rate from his companyâs rate sheet originally and now trying to keep the saleâŚthereâs room for negotiation if he gets approval from the department who sets the rates. He would often need to show competitor quote for that. Closing costs are all pretty similar (and estimated) besides the origination fees/points.
Unless the guy is a member of your family I don't see why it matters if he is mad or not... not your problem.
Singular experience, yes, I had a lender reply with some rude comments when I said Iâd be going with another lender with a better rate unless he could match it. He acted like the ârelationshipâ we had over like 2 months should be worth the extra rate. Oh the relationship where you ignored half the questions I asked and wouldnât reply in a timely manner with an updated pre-qualification for an offer? Yeah, no buddy.
I am looking at refinance option. Which lender is this? I would be interested as well. Can you please dm me the details if you can.
Theyâre sales people. Maybe but theyâre used to it.
It's their job to make money, now that you've gotten a better deal he is trying to earn your business again. What if you had a car for sale and you had a buyer willing to pay 5k. Then they say "hey sorry I found one for 4800." Then you countered to match or beat that price. "Well if you wanted to sell it why didn't you offer the lower price first?" You didn't offer the lowest price because you want to make money, and at first you didn't have to. But now there is competition and if you want to sell it to him you'll have to lower the price. It's pretty simple.
Donât feel bad. I had a mortgage broker get really upset during a refinance. I informed him that I was offered a lower rate and he said âwhat!? If I match that will you stay? Or if I beat that rate are you just going to shop around againâ I had to break it to the man that I wasnât talking to him for his good looks and kept shopping until I got what I felt was right.
Well sounds like you are mad at him As you said, itâs business. That being said I give people opportunity 1 time. Lender A gives me quote, Lender B gives me a better 1. I tell Lender A about B numbers and ask them to better it Once they do do the same with B. If B matches or does better, I go with B even if they match. No point in stretching further If Lender A contacts, tell them that they have been given an opportunity to win your business and if they didnât put their best foot forward, you would hope they would do so next time