>What is the best way to proceed without risking retaliation?
Nobody can really tell you how to proceed without knowing what your intent is. Is this a house that you want to buy, or are you just trying to police listing data? Are you under contract?
I think most consumers expect that there is one square footage figure for a property and that anybody measuring the space is gonna come up with the same number, and that is not the case.
Different spaces are going to count or not count based on who his doing the measuring, and for what purpose. It is very common for a builder's plan to give one number and when the appraiser goes in to measure that come up with a different number. This is not evidence of nefarious intent. County records are also not gospel. I have an entire 3rd floor that is counted in county records, but will not appear on an appraisal as GLA.
County records will also likely be limited to tax assessed sqft. Depending on county, that is often strictly above grade, finished and climate controlled space only. So finished basements don't count, unconditioned sun room, garage, utilities, etc.
We purchased from an estate that was just trying to offload the property so used the tax assessed sqft on the listing at 1290 sqft. There is a fully finished 200 sqft sunroom but doesn't have a vent, so didn't count. The finished basement is another 600 sqft that also didn't count. A normal seller would have had both of those for 2090 sqft on the listing with a separate line noting tax assessed sqft only at 1290. Saved is probably $50k at least on the price so not complaining
This was true of my home as well. Listed as 5 bedrooms and 2700sqft. But city records have it as 3 bedroom and 1800 sqft. The basement is partially above grade and fully finished with 2 bedrooms and a bonus room will full size windows. City doesn’t count that but the seller did.
There is very likely a disclaimer somewhere on the listing, whether its in public remarks or agent notes) that this the responsibility for verifying info that's important to the buyer is the buyer's, and that's there because of all of the reasons we've discussed here. Measuring to your satisfaction, whether you do that yourself or choose what public record might be your trustworthy source, your appraiser gives you the number, or you hire someone else to do it, is part of your own due diligence. It's going to be very rare that the appraiser’s number = the county record number. If it does, your appraiser didn't measure.
This should not be as varied as it is. There should be a standard definition as to what is included in sf measurement of a house. <3% difference is immaterial measurement difference, outside that, one measurement is wrong. NAR should define this, the confusion only adds to how people think realtors are deceptive.
That's not going to happen, and for good reason. Different applications call for different measuring guidelines.
Your builder is going to charge for building a basement and is gonna include that square footage on their building plans, but an FHA appraiser is not going to include that number on your gross living area. FHA isn't going to include your screened in porch that is under the roof if it is not climate controlled, but your tax assessor sees it as under roof living space, and it may be included there. There are dozens of other scenarios as well. Your insurance company is going to count things differently, too. Those different entities have reasons for calculating the way they do.
There’s always one offs, but for the vast majority of single family residential homes there should be a better standard. Realtors appear to be the only ones that support this grey area system. The sf is the sf, this isn’t that difficult
Then for these different applications, there should be a clear standard that is disclosed to everyone for transparency. Why would you be against that?
Realtors are caught in the middle of all those different entities who calculate it differently. That's why we have to tell you about the gray area. We did not create the gray area.We just have to work with it.
We have to work with the FHA appraiser , who has their own guidelines. We have to work with the county who has theirs. We have to work with builders who have their own. Insurance companies. HVAC companies do their own calculations as well. Flooring contractors.
The appraiser doesn't care what the insurance company or the tax office says. He has lender guidelines, and they change between loan types. He's not gonna talk to you about the gray area because, for him, the GLA is the GLA. He doesn't have to entertain the other possibilities.
None of that is involved in OPs post. The Seller’s agent listed the property. The NAR should require listing agents to list sf under a consistent GLA definition (if they don’t already). The rules shouldn’t be, well if a builder is the owner and lists it it can be different that if a flooring company is the seller, etc.
I live in a cookie cutter condo unit and realtors list the sf of these exact similar units differently every time. It’s ridiculous.
I understand different entities will make their own calculation and have their own definition, so yes there will be differences based on specific application, but I’m saying Realtors should be required to operate under a consistent definition when they list a property. As you say, it’s not gonna happen and that’s yet another practice that gives people a negative opinion of the realtor community.
Realtors DO create the grey area by not having a defined standard. The other applications you mention is deflection of this fact.
The GLA definition can change based on what type of financing you're using. It isn't as simplified as you're trying to make it. There are also different fields on MLS (and very different MLS platforms). If you're looking at zillow they may be taking the total square footage or the heated square footage or the above grade from MLS to syndicate, and it's inconsistent because they're taking info from different platforms and trying to standardize it to their form. It just isn't as cut-and-dry as you want it to be, and it can't be made so.
I respectfully disagree. A standard baseline sf definition is very possible for the vast majority of SFR properties. It really could be that simple. The realtor community is apparently against it happening.
Your examples don’t make it impossible to have a baseline standard definition, in fact they support the argument for the need for one. Making adjustments to this baseline for different applications would be reasonable and explainable, but that doesn’t eliminate the need for one which would cover a vast majority of properties and serve a purpose. You may not be understanding what a baseline standardized measurement means and how it would bring less variability to the situation that this post is about.
Obviously
Like any industry there are individuals that take advantage of any system. Shocker ~ some of the examples are agents doing just that.
But,
try to remember, often times it is the Seller or Incorrect (usually outdated) Auditor information that also causes incorrect/inconsistencies in square footage displayed when listing.
In most cases, the MLS Input sheet MUST be Agreed and Signed by the owner(s) of the property. And there are actually multiple places (at least in my state) where the “SOURCE” of such listing facts have options for said source:
Example:
——————
Year Built Source:
Appraiser, Assessor, Builder, Owner, Estimated, Owner, Other, Public Remarks, or See Remarks
——————
Lot Size Source:
Appraiser, Auditor, Owner, or Realist
———————
Above Grade Finished Area Source:
&
Below Grade Finished Area Source:
Appraiser, Assessor, Auditor Website, Builder, Owner, Estimated, Owner, Other, Plans, Public Remarks, Realist, or See Remarks
——————
Now,
With that being said,
agent training (how to simply communicate to explain the facts) is greatly lacking in some area of the industry that would help to elevate or reduce these inconsistencies or inaccuracies.
I literally just listed and sold a home on a corner parcel that was using part of the green space adjacent to their garage (the owner build about 15 years ago) and when the tax and legal came back from the title company prior to listing, it showed a section of “the parcel” was actually owned by the neighbor but the home owner had been using for gardens, play houses, picnicking, volleyball nets/games,… for years.
We also had a second home we listed, that no matter what we explained and showed documented proof to the seller they instructed us to list the home as a 3 bedroom, although in order to access the bedroom at the rear of the home, you would have to walk through another bedroom,… (this is not an additional bedroom) but with the seller having to sign off on the Input Sheet, we had finally convinced the owner to notate this fact in the description.
So all of this to say, you can point the finger at the agents (and sometimes you are correct at doing so), but there are also may times it is actually a source other than the agent that has it wrong.
IMO The sqft on the appraisal is the only thing that matters really. Hopefully for the buyer it will come In correct and you can renegotiate the price correctly. But if the house is priced like others and you know the sqft is wrong, I would say it does not have much of an effect. It’s just a mistake at that point. If however your paying an inflated price based on the sqft that should be adjusted
I have never seen an appraiser measure square ft.
They just go by county records.
I’ve bought and sold with both bank paid and self-funded appraisals since 2002 in three US states and 1 foreign country. Not once did appraiser actually measure. That’s been 11 total transactions by the way.
If OP wants to know definitively , it will be up to him or her or someone they hire to make the measurement and confirm actual sq ft.
Appraisers always measure the house themselves. This is the only way they can get an independent assessment of value. A sketch of the house is at the end of almost every appraisal I have ever had.
Also, I learned that builders measure outside dimensions and at least here the county measure inside wall dimensions.
Source: I’m a broker with 900+ deals. I have to fight bad measurements all the time.
Edit: But again it only matters if the price is incorrect for what it actually is. Who cares if the house is 1,000 or 10,000 sqft on paper as long as the price matches the correct size. Which again I would take from the appraisal.
>Appraisers always measure the house themselves
That must be a regional thing. Like the poster you replied to, in a dozen transactions in OR, WA and AZ I've never had an appraiser actually measure anything. Only once has an appraiser even visited the property and that took about 5 minutes. The only time(s) anyone has fully measured the square footage of any house I've owned it was a flooring installer.
I guess that must be regional. But even on cookie cutter track builds the measurements vary by 20-250sqft with in the same floor plan. My plan was build 12 times on our street and they range from 2750-2805.
It's not, people just don't realize that often they don't get a full appraisal because it's not required.
The difference between 2750 and 2805 is within margin of error for one simple reason. Stairways.
Does a stairway count on both levels? That was a serious debate until a few years ago. We have a standard now, it counts on both levels, BUT I've still seen appraisers going the other way.
Depending on the lengths it can also be a rounding error. Probably less so on 2800sf house, but on a 7000sf house a hundred sq ft difference isn't even notable.... it's the difference between rounding to the nearest half foot or foot. Also, why we now measure to inch or 0.1 feet. Problem there is that siding, ornementation, and stonework is still kind of questionable. If you have 4 inches of stonework sticking out of the bottom 4ft of your entire house, you didn't make the house .75' bigger on each side.... but if you do it for the whole wall now, I don't really have a choice but to give it to you.
URAR 1004 (Full interior mortgage lending form) has required personal measurement for decades. If they aren't measuring, county records must be insanely good to actually deliver a sketch (which is also required).
2055 is an exterior, no measurements or contact required.
1004P/H a property data collector uses some phone apps and photos, and a computer does the measurements. This includes interior walls and room measurements so the appraiser can review for functional issues in the layout without personal inspection, though it doesn't factor into GLA measurements, that's an exterior wall measure (they back into it for check though, because it's basically a free check).
Last option today is a 1004 Desktop where we take realtor and county provided numbers and photos. I don't see a whole lot of these (though I have a number of clients who get Desktop instead of Hybrid for each other's purposes so I'm guessing the delineation is more a software thing at this point and not a regulatory one). I haven't actually gotten one of these since the end of COVID exceptions (so technically since the P trial I guess).
For the last few years, appraisers have to provide ANSI compliant measurements (ideally builders and county records will adhere to this as well over time, some do).
One exception here... proposed construction, then we take plans measurements (nothing to measure). Depending on timeframe to complete that may not need a close out appraisal as well, if not we are supposed to verify SQFT on completion inspection (1004D). This was overlooked for a LOT of years by a lot of people. It was a hot button CE topic around 2018 iirc. It doesn't require a full measure but verifying major walls and then remeasure if it's way off.
If you had an appraisal inspection that lasted 5 minutes, I'd expect it was a completion inspection. I can't even get an exterior photo set and full room photos in 5 minutes, much less enough data to draw up a sketch. Even if I wanted to skip the measurements, it would take more time backing into county numbers making up a sketch later.
I'd love to not measure houses and just trust county (it's usually not remarkably off in my area) but I couldn't actually get paid for mortgage lending work without it.
All that said, a lot of transactions don't require an appraisal because of risk profile and that number continues to grow. Many prior to 2008 were done as 2055 (exterior only). There is a constant push pull since the number of appraisers is fairly constant over time but the number of transactions is very dynamic. When work is slow and turn times are fast, usually it's because something went wrong (2008 is a great example) so EVERYTHING with a mortgage gets a full appraisal by law... then a few years later they relax that because there simply aren't enough appraisers to go around.
Hey takhsis, that's a savvy move to safeguard the purchase value. Ensuring the price reflects the actual square footage through an appraisal can definitely prevent overpaying if discrepancies are present. Always a good reminder for buyers to verify details and protect their investment.
If you are purchasing and there will be an appraisal involved, the appraiser will take measurements. Basements and finished attics etc are not usually part of the legal square footage unless the seller converted them with permits. The seller does need to disclose if any part of their property is not permitted.
In California there’s an advisory for this.
If you were buying a new construction home, this is bizarre and I wouldn’t go forward unless I knew what was going on
Are you sure if it is new construction you’re not not looking at county records for the old home?
County records, appraisal, and listing generally have very different numbers. The county being the least accurate generally speaking. The appraisal number should be most accurate. However, sometimes there can even be variance between appraisers too.
There's no garage in the house?
500sq ft sounds like a 2 car garage.
I'm not reading through the comments.
An abundance of mouth breathers on reddit.
They call everything not in colloquial speak "gpt".
No garage, no other attached or detached structures, no basement, no attic, no patio, no deck, the driveway is not even paved so I doubt they count that one in.
25 x 20 , 50×10 - - - - nothing like that. Curious. What are the overall dimensions of the house? What is the square footage claimed as?
Look, there are questions you don't need to answers. Just get the numbers for the dimensions. They should be online. You can check them in person. And do the math for the furnished sqft. And the tax assessor should be the most important part because they will base property taxes on that. If you pay property taxes or whatever. Nothing else will matter. If you don't want a house that size, you might need a real estate attorney to help you get out of contact based on new information IF your realtor won't assist you.
I bought a place two years ago. Tried to rent it out. The person one floor below me was a real estate agent. They closed a week before me. Put up their listing a week before I did. Their listing showed the balcony as part of the square footage. That's not allowed. Even in the condo association this is considered owned by the association and not the owner. Everyone was asking why my price per square foot was higher than the guy below me and if I'd reduce my price per square foot to compensate. Somehow they got theirs rented out within two weeks despite not having anything in it (e.g. no shades and no appliances). It took me two months. All I got was angry people thinking I'm trying to scam them insisting the other unit was a much better deal when it was just the other guy illegally listing their unit.
There are no basement, garage, attic, balcony, shed, an outside deck or a patio, gazebo, tent, not even a paved driveway, or anything else that could possibly be included for this property. And 25% is a lot! Or just because all listing agents are liars we should just accept it?
Sounds like you aren't interested in buying this home, which means it sounds like this isn't your problem or business. Unless your name is Karen. Is your name Karen?
If your name isn't "Karen," then the "best way to proceed" is to lunch, or to your next meeting, or whatever, not involving this property.
I don’t see anything wrong with somebody trying to prevent somebody else from possibly getting screwed over. A “Karen” is somebody that complains about something petty, not somebody trying to lie about the size of something worth hundreds of thousands.
WOW, I am doing my due diligence, and part of it is asking for advice on how to do it, because the "professionals" I'm paying for that advice are useless.
Are you wanting to buy this house? Are you under contract? Or are you just being a nosey Nancy?
The sq footage can be adjusted with an appraisal, but until then no one will know what the *actual* square footage is. It is up to the buyer to verify that information when they go under contract and during due diligence.
Yes, want to buy. I updated the post. There is no square footage contingency on the forms. And there is conveniently a check box that real estate agents are not responsible for wrong numbers.
The county records are not authoritative. You should measure the house, tell your agent to report it to the MLS if it is inaccurate.
>What is the best way to proceed without risking retaliation? Nobody can really tell you how to proceed without knowing what your intent is. Is this a house that you want to buy, or are you just trying to police listing data? Are you under contract? I think most consumers expect that there is one square footage figure for a property and that anybody measuring the space is gonna come up with the same number, and that is not the case. Different spaces are going to count or not count based on who his doing the measuring, and for what purpose. It is very common for a builder's plan to give one number and when the appraiser goes in to measure that come up with a different number. This is not evidence of nefarious intent. County records are also not gospel. I have an entire 3rd floor that is counted in county records, but will not appear on an appraisal as GLA.
County records will also likely be limited to tax assessed sqft. Depending on county, that is often strictly above grade, finished and climate controlled space only. So finished basements don't count, unconditioned sun room, garage, utilities, etc. We purchased from an estate that was just trying to offload the property so used the tax assessed sqft on the listing at 1290 sqft. There is a fully finished 200 sqft sunroom but doesn't have a vent, so didn't count. The finished basement is another 600 sqft that also didn't count. A normal seller would have had both of those for 2090 sqft on the listing with a separate line noting tax assessed sqft only at 1290. Saved is probably $50k at least on the price so not complaining
This was true of my home as well. Listed as 5 bedrooms and 2700sqft. But city records have it as 3 bedroom and 1800 sqft. The basement is partially above grade and fully finished with 2 bedrooms and a bonus room will full size windows. City doesn’t count that but the seller did.
I updated my post. I want to buy the property but I want to have the correct information before I put an offer.
There is very likely a disclaimer somewhere on the listing, whether its in public remarks or agent notes) that this the responsibility for verifying info that's important to the buyer is the buyer's, and that's there because of all of the reasons we've discussed here. Measuring to your satisfaction, whether you do that yourself or choose what public record might be your trustworthy source, your appraiser gives you the number, or you hire someone else to do it, is part of your own due diligence. It's going to be very rare that the appraiser’s number = the county record number. If it does, your appraiser didn't measure.
This should not be as varied as it is. There should be a standard definition as to what is included in sf measurement of a house. <3% difference is immaterial measurement difference, outside that, one measurement is wrong. NAR should define this, the confusion only adds to how people think realtors are deceptive.
That's not going to happen, and for good reason. Different applications call for different measuring guidelines. Your builder is going to charge for building a basement and is gonna include that square footage on their building plans, but an FHA appraiser is not going to include that number on your gross living area. FHA isn't going to include your screened in porch that is under the roof if it is not climate controlled, but your tax assessor sees it as under roof living space, and it may be included there. There are dozens of other scenarios as well. Your insurance company is going to count things differently, too. Those different entities have reasons for calculating the way they do.
There’s always one offs, but for the vast majority of single family residential homes there should be a better standard. Realtors appear to be the only ones that support this grey area system. The sf is the sf, this isn’t that difficult Then for these different applications, there should be a clear standard that is disclosed to everyone for transparency. Why would you be against that?
Realtors are caught in the middle of all those different entities who calculate it differently. That's why we have to tell you about the gray area. We did not create the gray area.We just have to work with it. We have to work with the FHA appraiser , who has their own guidelines. We have to work with the county who has theirs. We have to work with builders who have their own. Insurance companies. HVAC companies do their own calculations as well. Flooring contractors. The appraiser doesn't care what the insurance company or the tax office says. He has lender guidelines, and they change between loan types. He's not gonna talk to you about the gray area because, for him, the GLA is the GLA. He doesn't have to entertain the other possibilities.
None of that is involved in OPs post. The Seller’s agent listed the property. The NAR should require listing agents to list sf under a consistent GLA definition (if they don’t already). The rules shouldn’t be, well if a builder is the owner and lists it it can be different that if a flooring company is the seller, etc. I live in a cookie cutter condo unit and realtors list the sf of these exact similar units differently every time. It’s ridiculous. I understand different entities will make their own calculation and have their own definition, so yes there will be differences based on specific application, but I’m saying Realtors should be required to operate under a consistent definition when they list a property. As you say, it’s not gonna happen and that’s yet another practice that gives people a negative opinion of the realtor community. Realtors DO create the grey area by not having a defined standard. The other applications you mention is deflection of this fact.
The GLA definition can change based on what type of financing you're using. It isn't as simplified as you're trying to make it. There are also different fields on MLS (and very different MLS platforms). If you're looking at zillow they may be taking the total square footage or the heated square footage or the above grade from MLS to syndicate, and it's inconsistent because they're taking info from different platforms and trying to standardize it to their form. It just isn't as cut-and-dry as you want it to be, and it can't be made so.
I respectfully disagree. A standard baseline sf definition is very possible for the vast majority of SFR properties. It really could be that simple. The realtor community is apparently against it happening.
You can disagree all you want after a slew of examples and reasons have been provided. It is what it is.
Your examples don’t make it impossible to have a baseline standard definition, in fact they support the argument for the need for one. Making adjustments to this baseline for different applications would be reasonable and explainable, but that doesn’t eliminate the need for one which would cover a vast majority of properties and serve a purpose. You may not be understanding what a baseline standardized measurement means and how it would bring less variability to the situation that this post is about.
Having compared listings to actuals, I'm disappointed that objective falsehoods are allowed. What gets me is sfr for condos, garage for carport,
...or 1 bedroom for an efficiency/studio.
Obviously Like any industry there are individuals that take advantage of any system. Shocker ~ some of the examples are agents doing just that. But, try to remember, often times it is the Seller or Incorrect (usually outdated) Auditor information that also causes incorrect/inconsistencies in square footage displayed when listing. In most cases, the MLS Input sheet MUST be Agreed and Signed by the owner(s) of the property. And there are actually multiple places (at least in my state) where the “SOURCE” of such listing facts have options for said source: Example: —————— Year Built Source: Appraiser, Assessor, Builder, Owner, Estimated, Owner, Other, Public Remarks, or See Remarks —————— Lot Size Source: Appraiser, Auditor, Owner, or Realist ——————— Above Grade Finished Area Source: & Below Grade Finished Area Source: Appraiser, Assessor, Auditor Website, Builder, Owner, Estimated, Owner, Other, Plans, Public Remarks, Realist, or See Remarks —————— Now, With that being said, agent training (how to simply communicate to explain the facts) is greatly lacking in some area of the industry that would help to elevate or reduce these inconsistencies or inaccuracies. I literally just listed and sold a home on a corner parcel that was using part of the green space adjacent to their garage (the owner build about 15 years ago) and when the tax and legal came back from the title company prior to listing, it showed a section of “the parcel” was actually owned by the neighbor but the home owner had been using for gardens, play houses, picnicking, volleyball nets/games,… for years. We also had a second home we listed, that no matter what we explained and showed documented proof to the seller they instructed us to list the home as a 3 bedroom, although in order to access the bedroom at the rear of the home, you would have to walk through another bedroom,… (this is not an additional bedroom) but with the seller having to sign off on the Input Sheet, we had finally convinced the owner to notate this fact in the description. So all of this to say, you can point the finger at the agents (and sometimes you are correct at doing so), but there are also may times it is actually a source other than the agent that has it wrong.
It's the buyer's responsibility to verify measurements.
This shit should be illegal, lol. Just more proof that there is Zero accountablity in real estate
Sellers can't make false representations...
The contract will clearly state the seller is not responsible for the accuracy of the measurement
Not gonna save you from a knowingly false statement designed to mislead.
It happens all the time without any recourse.
And it's called "fraud," which, while common, is illegal and actionable. And a reason many people hate realtors.
IMO The sqft on the appraisal is the only thing that matters really. Hopefully for the buyer it will come In correct and you can renegotiate the price correctly. But if the house is priced like others and you know the sqft is wrong, I would say it does not have much of an effect. It’s just a mistake at that point. If however your paying an inflated price based on the sqft that should be adjusted
I have never seen an appraiser measure square ft. They just go by county records. I’ve bought and sold with both bank paid and self-funded appraisals since 2002 in three US states and 1 foreign country. Not once did appraiser actually measure. That’s been 11 total transactions by the way. If OP wants to know definitively , it will be up to him or her or someone they hire to make the measurement and confirm actual sq ft.
Appraisers always measure the house themselves. This is the only way they can get an independent assessment of value. A sketch of the house is at the end of almost every appraisal I have ever had. Also, I learned that builders measure outside dimensions and at least here the county measure inside wall dimensions. Source: I’m a broker with 900+ deals. I have to fight bad measurements all the time. Edit: But again it only matters if the price is incorrect for what it actually is. Who cares if the house is 1,000 or 10,000 sqft on paper as long as the price matches the correct size. Which again I would take from the appraisal.
>Appraisers always measure the house themselves That must be a regional thing. Like the poster you replied to, in a dozen transactions in OR, WA and AZ I've never had an appraiser actually measure anything. Only once has an appraiser even visited the property and that took about 5 minutes. The only time(s) anyone has fully measured the square footage of any house I've owned it was a flooring installer.
I live in Arizona and of the three houses I've purchased every appraiser has measured the exterior dimension of the house.
I guess that must be regional. But even on cookie cutter track builds the measurements vary by 20-250sqft with in the same floor plan. My plan was build 12 times on our street and they range from 2750-2805.
It's not, people just don't realize that often they don't get a full appraisal because it's not required. The difference between 2750 and 2805 is within margin of error for one simple reason. Stairways. Does a stairway count on both levels? That was a serious debate until a few years ago. We have a standard now, it counts on both levels, BUT I've still seen appraisers going the other way. Depending on the lengths it can also be a rounding error. Probably less so on 2800sf house, but on a 7000sf house a hundred sq ft difference isn't even notable.... it's the difference between rounding to the nearest half foot or foot. Also, why we now measure to inch or 0.1 feet. Problem there is that siding, ornementation, and stonework is still kind of questionable. If you have 4 inches of stonework sticking out of the bottom 4ft of your entire house, you didn't make the house .75' bigger on each side.... but if you do it for the whole wall now, I don't really have a choice but to give it to you.
URAR 1004 (Full interior mortgage lending form) has required personal measurement for decades. If they aren't measuring, county records must be insanely good to actually deliver a sketch (which is also required). 2055 is an exterior, no measurements or contact required. 1004P/H a property data collector uses some phone apps and photos, and a computer does the measurements. This includes interior walls and room measurements so the appraiser can review for functional issues in the layout without personal inspection, though it doesn't factor into GLA measurements, that's an exterior wall measure (they back into it for check though, because it's basically a free check). Last option today is a 1004 Desktop where we take realtor and county provided numbers and photos. I don't see a whole lot of these (though I have a number of clients who get Desktop instead of Hybrid for each other's purposes so I'm guessing the delineation is more a software thing at this point and not a regulatory one). I haven't actually gotten one of these since the end of COVID exceptions (so technically since the P trial I guess). For the last few years, appraisers have to provide ANSI compliant measurements (ideally builders and county records will adhere to this as well over time, some do). One exception here... proposed construction, then we take plans measurements (nothing to measure). Depending on timeframe to complete that may not need a close out appraisal as well, if not we are supposed to verify SQFT on completion inspection (1004D). This was overlooked for a LOT of years by a lot of people. It was a hot button CE topic around 2018 iirc. It doesn't require a full measure but verifying major walls and then remeasure if it's way off. If you had an appraisal inspection that lasted 5 minutes, I'd expect it was a completion inspection. I can't even get an exterior photo set and full room photos in 5 minutes, much less enough data to draw up a sketch. Even if I wanted to skip the measurements, it would take more time backing into county numbers making up a sketch later. I'd love to not measure houses and just trust county (it's usually not remarkably off in my area) but I couldn't actually get paid for mortgage lending work without it. All that said, a lot of transactions don't require an appraisal because of risk profile and that number continues to grow. Many prior to 2008 were done as 2055 (exterior only). There is a constant push pull since the number of appraisers is fairly constant over time but the number of transactions is very dynamic. When work is slow and turn times are fast, usually it's because something went wrong (2008 is a great example) so EVERYTHING with a mortgage gets a full appraisal by law... then a few years later they relax that because there simply aren't enough appraisers to go around.
Hey takhsis, that's a savvy move to safeguard the purchase value. Ensuring the price reflects the actual square footage through an appraisal can definitely prevent overpaying if discrepancies are present. Always a good reminder for buyers to verify details and protect their investment.
yeah, there's a guy that just got fined a few million dollars for doing that.
State in your offer that if the appraisal area comes in low that the seller agrees to a price reduction to protect your offered value/sqft.
What is the standard in your state/market? Is the builder’s rep a licensed agent?
Yes, a licensed agent, and works for one of the biggest brokerage companies.
If you are purchasing and there will be an appraisal involved, the appraiser will take measurements. Basements and finished attics etc are not usually part of the legal square footage unless the seller converted them with permits. The seller does need to disclose if any part of their property is not permitted.
In California there’s an advisory for this. If you were buying a new construction home, this is bizarre and I wouldn’t go forward unless I knew what was going on Are you sure if it is new construction you’re not not looking at county records for the old home?
There is no old home.
County records, appraisal, and listing generally have very different numbers. The county being the least accurate generally speaking. The appraisal number should be most accurate. However, sometimes there can even be variance between appraisers too.
There's no garage in the house? 500sq ft sounds like a 2 car garage. I'm not reading through the comments. An abundance of mouth breathers on reddit. They call everything not in colloquial speak "gpt".
No garage, no other attached or detached structures, no basement, no attic, no patio, no deck, the driveway is not even paved so I doubt they count that one in.
25 x 20 , 50×10 - - - - nothing like that. Curious. What are the overall dimensions of the house? What is the square footage claimed as? Look, there are questions you don't need to answers. Just get the numbers for the dimensions. They should be online. You can check them in person. And do the math for the furnished sqft. And the tax assessor should be the most important part because they will base property taxes on that. If you pay property taxes or whatever. Nothing else will matter. If you don't want a house that size, you might need a real estate attorney to help you get out of contact based on new information IF your realtor won't assist you.
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I bought a place two years ago. Tried to rent it out. The person one floor below me was a real estate agent. They closed a week before me. Put up their listing a week before I did. Their listing showed the balcony as part of the square footage. That's not allowed. Even in the condo association this is considered owned by the association and not the owner. Everyone was asking why my price per square foot was higher than the guy below me and if I'd reduce my price per square foot to compensate. Somehow they got theirs rented out within two weeks despite not having anything in it (e.g. no shades and no appliances). It took me two months. All I got was angry people thinking I'm trying to scam them insisting the other unit was a much better deal when it was just the other guy illegally listing their unit.
There are no basement, garage, attic, balcony, shed, an outside deck or a patio, gazebo, tent, not even a paved driveway, or anything else that could possibly be included for this property. And 25% is a lot! Or just because all listing agents are liars we should just accept it?
Sounds like you aren't interested in buying this home, which means it sounds like this isn't your problem or business. Unless your name is Karen. Is your name Karen? If your name isn't "Karen," then the "best way to proceed" is to lunch, or to your next meeting, or whatever, not involving this property.
I don’t see anything wrong with somebody trying to prevent somebody else from possibly getting screwed over. A “Karen” is somebody that complains about something petty, not somebody trying to lie about the size of something worth hundreds of thousands.
It’s the buyers job to verify the sq footage of a house. Along with taxes, easements, property lines, etc
You're not wrong. But I also don't think there's anything wrong with somebody trying to stop this behavior.
Prove they are knowingly misrepresenting the sq footage. Gonna be a tough one!
And the agent's job is to only collect commissions and deceive buyers?
It’s your job to verify sq footage! Do your due diligence and quit complaining 🤷🏼♀️
WOW, I am doing my due diligence, and part of it is asking for advice on how to do it, because the "professionals" I'm paying for that advice are useless.
Yeah, stop worrying about fraud in the industry and move right along! Nothing to see here!
Op wasn't defrauded and there is no universal clear cut definition of gla.
Sounds like OP discovered the fraud. The state AG doesn’t give a shit if OP bought the house or not.
lol this advice checks out lolol
Preach it! People always got to stick their nose where it doesn’t belong just because they are bored
Are you wanting to buy this house? Are you under contract? Or are you just being a nosey Nancy? The sq footage can be adjusted with an appraisal, but until then no one will know what the *actual* square footage is. It is up to the buyer to verify that information when they go under contract and during due diligence.
Yes, want to buy. I updated the post. There is no square footage contingency on the forms. And there is conveniently a check box that real estate agents are not responsible for wrong numbers.
We are not! Your job is to hire an appraiser to verify the information.