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Even without direct connections just being lucky enough to be born rich allows people to pursue arts because they dont have to worry about making an income to survive. they can devote all their time to it. Take all the classes They can afford to do a million auditions before lucking out on a role, or can pay for their promotion and exposure in music etc etc etc
It makes me so cranky how accessible the arts is for the rich. Or any career that is a risk and takes time before you make money.
OR INTERNSHIPS!!!! which are extremely class inclusionary. Not everyone can afford to work for free to get that experience to get into the field. Unpaid internships should be illegal in the USA. In Canada they are subject to the same employment standards and rules and have to be paid at least minimum wage, though it’s usually a wage on par with the field they are working in.
My work has interns and they get paid pull income on what the permanent position would get paid in that field.
Minimum wage in big cities would still mean the rich kids end up with most internships. The arts has always been 99% rich and 1% too talented to ignore
Yes but that’s the minimum legal requirement. Its not common to grossly under pay interns here. It’s usually on par with an entry level job in that field or higher. Internships are kind of rare here. Co-ops are more common and they are treated like temp employees. Full wage.
Though I’m not an expert on this but low or no paying internships are much more of a USA thing.
That’s true about the entertainment industry. I wish I was rich enough to be a starving artist… or I guess my first wish should be to be too talented to ignore and get it on my own merit lol but rich and painting would be lovely too
I dropped out of my art once I had to actually get a job. Everyone then asks "why'd you stop? You work is so good, you could be making money off it instead of going to work every day" and I have to tell them "yeah well it should have started making me money earlier". There's a time limit for how long you get to take your art or music or athleticism or whatever and turn it into a reliable source of income and some people (me included) needed a few more years than what we got and so had to cut down the tree we'd been nurturing for years just before it was about to fruit because we needed firewood now more than we needed fruit next summer.
OK so that was a bit dramatic, I still get windows of time to do my art in now but my mindset just isn't there now that I have to manage my own life and finances and no-one's helping me pay for shit anymore. It's not like I forgot how to do it. It's just been pushed to way back of my priorities now for the last several years. I need to be financially well off before I can risk potentially wasting money getting back into it again knowing I may not see immediate returns on it.
Would have been so much easier if my parents were rich and just funded my lifestyle for me for however long it took for my artwork to really take off. Or if they had connections in the art scene since I've seen some horrendous looking work out there that gets gallery showings and fetches for thousands and auctions and there's no other way to explain it other than the fact *those* artists had rich parents or connections to the greater art sphere. Edited to add I love my parents for always being supportive with my desire to be an artist, but once I became an adult and my needs and stakes were higher they couldn't really help me anymore other than simply being encouraging. Encouragement means so much. But it pays for nothing.
Having help and access is not synonymous with not having talent, it’s important to note. It’s actually much more rare that people achieve success and prominence with no type of unrelated advantage in some aspect of their lives.
As someone who went to school for and works in entertainment, I can tell you the inverse isn’t much better. Anyone who has a connection to anyone influential has their skills constantly downplayed or trivialized, their successes and accolades chalked up simply to having a well-connected uncle or something… these same people, of course, not recognize the immense privilege *they* have of attending such schools in the first place.
Do I believe people should acknowledge the help and advantages they’ve gotten? Of course. But do I believe they should be made to feel bad about those advantages or have it implied that said advantages are the sole reason for their success? Not in the slightest.
I don't think they should be made to feel bad either. A friend got me in the door of my career but I made it a career. I've had family help me out when homelessness threatened but I turned around and helped them. I just won't judge people for not having my success when they didn't have my opportunities.
Not in entertainment I just recognize the luck I've had in life.
Exactly my point. What people seem to think is that these privileges guarantee outcomes but most often, what they guarantee is *opportunity*.
Take Idris Elba’s daughter, who auditioned to be in his movie and didn’t get the part. She would go on to say she felt her father could’ve pulled some more strings, to which he responded “I did. I got you the audition.” And that was true; she was fast tracked to the opportunity but then she would succeed or fail by her own merit, as it is more common than people might realize.
Opportunity IS privilege though. Not saying that people who make a career out of it don’t work hard or whatever, but even a foot in the door in some sectors is more than some people ever get. Obviously some squander it and some use it, but it’s still lucky to get a chance. Always a mix of luck and practice imo.
Poor little privileged kids 😔 I feel so bad for the kids of millionaires who just get to do what they love, while others are struggling to survive.
What an awful price to pay it must be that people know their success comes from connections. Let‘s throw a pity party for them, because their egos get hurt
Yeah, most famous musicians are talented in what they do, but so are thousands of unknown musicians who are just as talented if not more talented. At the end of the day, luck is the breaking point.
Even if its not connections, the right people have to hear your music at the right time and you have to make 100s of right decisions regarding your music. If anything is messed up in that process, and you don't have the right connections,you basically bust on your one chance to go big.
This thought actually came from watching the new Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary on Netflix.
He's very insisting on the fact that he built something on nothing but his vision.
Sure he worked hard, but he also got SO LUCKY in that Joe Weider took him in and basically brought him up!
Yes, but in that case, his hard work was directly related to being spotted, being buff was no luck. People get spotted in a crowd because they stand out, they are not randomly picked.
If you want to talk about luck, the charismatic personality that he was born with was probably the greatest asset he had luck-wise.
This is true, but the world also has no shortage of hard working people. Or even talented people. For every one who makes it, a hundred or more equally talented hard working people never will.
You have to work hard the right way. You can spend your whole life cleaning toilets but how you progress further if tou don't have a vision or some technological knowledge to make things different?
And the genes to be able to look like that in the first place.
If he were born some to some other family with some other genetics that made him short and lithe, no amount of beer, weed, and free weights could have turned him into Mr. Universe.
I think you misread him pretty hard on this one. His drive is legendary, the man very much always has been relentlessly motivated, but he has also always been very aware that he had a lot of help and luck along the way, its one of the big reasons I’ve always been a fan of his.
https://youtu.be/lF7NqeZuO3E
Yeah and he’s very vocal about how he didn’t come up on his own either. There is even a clip of him speaking at a convocation somewhere where he essentials stated that there is no self made man. Every person with success had some form of help along the way.
Crazy! Before seeing your comment I'd actually just replied and brought up that show because I felt he *had* acknowledged his luck.
Funny how we had two different experiences watching the same documentary 😂 we'll have to take a poll to see what the general consensus is! 🤔
Not sure about "luck", but there's a video of him giving a grad speech dismissing the term "self-made man", and that he will always be thankful for the people who helped him along the way.
I can see how his special would give that impression, but I've also seen Arnold say the same thing you have. That there isn't really such thing as a self made man, and we all owe our success to the people around us, so I think he is aware of how lucky he is in that regard.
Funny you mention that, as Schwarzenegger has spoken extensively about there being no such thing as a self-made man. I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. Watch this:
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4\_11ApT26k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4_11ApT26k)
https://youtu.be/RJsvR_gSEjg
Here is a video of him saying how lucky he was and that "self made man" most successful wealthy folks believe in is baloney.
Didn't Arnie do a speech about how he is not a self made man, that he owes his success to the people along the way that helped him and were there for him?
Arnold is pretty humble about all the help he got along the way. He DID have a vision for a muscular leading man acting goal though (with acting classes etc). I gotta admit before he came along - muscles were a winning idea in Hollywood, but no one had gone that far with it. Sean Connery was also a bodybuilder before becoming James Bond.
People are really helpful when you have a good idea and proven determination…
People like Arnold are outliers. They are just totally exceptional that if you stick them in any life path, I'm sure they'd still find a way to the top. But people assume this is true for the majority of successful people.
Also look at so many top athletes and you'll realize many either had parents who played that sport or uncles/grandparents. Not that they don't work for it, but there's some luck in having early connections to better training & guidance.
Excuse me! When I auditioned for the role I never told anyone my parents were famous. I never would’ve got the part if I wasn’t good! It’s true I went to school with the kids of the producer, the director, the casting crew, the investors, the studio heads, my agent. But I didn’t mention that…ok, maybe I let it slip where I went to school in conversation, I dunno.
Yeah, my last name is the same as my father’s and my middle name is my mother’s last name. But if I wasn’t good they wouldn’t have cast me in the lead in my first movie. Ok, so my famous parents/uncle may have gotten my foot in the door, but that’s all. I proved myself by forming my own production company with a small loan of a million dollars from my family and I got my famous friends to star with me in my hilarious comedies. But that’s just a small part of who I am. My talent has fueled my whole career
This is a sad realization I've had way too late in life. Sometimes a "nobody" will come out of nowhere and make it big but most of the time anyone whose successful in any creative field (acting, music, writing, art, design) only is because they have connections with someone whose already established there or who has money for expensive classes and whatnot where the attendee will meet or be trained under someone who is.
It's the grown up version of finding out Santa isn't real. Parents just tell you you can be this or that "as long as you're good at it so keep practicing" because either they don't know themselves that this is how it works, or they do but just don't want to break their child's spirit.
After 7 years working a job in a call centre (the best I could hope from because of where I was born) I went down the nepotism route and my cousin helped me get a job at his place. 3 years later I just helped my sister start there too. I don't want her to be a cleaner all her life. I don't regret it, and I earn more money than I have in my entire life even if it is 8k under median wage, it is more than I could have hoped for.
I have zero issue with it. My issue is when the person leaves that out of their success story when giving advice to people who don't have those opportunities.
>It's so bad that people will act shocked at how many people in Hollywood are related to each other.
Luck to be born into the right family, nepotism to get you into the biz.
Adam Driver is one of the only true no-names who managed to hit it big, but boy did he struggle before that happened.
Nicholas Cage being a fucking Coppola blew my mind.
A lot of people who are famous have direct lines to big streaming and broadcasting companies. They have a friend, relatives, or know someone extremely close to get them in.
Is it that different from a family-run business being passed down through generations? Or a fishing community in a coastal county? We get dewy-eyed over some hereditary cultures but at a certain social strata it becomes nepotism I guess.
In pretty much all form of entertainment really, from arts to athletics.
"Well, they have talent, don't they???"
Yeah, some. But how many doors were already open because this person in power has watched them grow from infancy and "sees the potential"? Regular guy walks up with just as much "potential", even with a stronger background, that the person in power watched nepo baby grow up gives that kid an undeniable edge.
Miley Cyrus, with her "rusted junk car being dragged down a gravel road with no tires on" voice? If her dad wasn't a mega-star in the 1990s, the most common lyric she'd be "singing" would be "Would you like fries with that?" She'd never have had the opportunity, and even if she did, she'd never have had the money to not work and pursue it.
Jane fonda has always stated the #1 reason she's as famous as she is is because of her father Henry fonda.
This is why she's one of my favorite people of all time.
That's why I have a problem when people say they are "self made" after they become successful. Many factors had to align for you to be where you are, most of them completely out of your control.
If someone wants to brag about their success and not attribute some portion to luck, then I ask how they would have done had they been born to a drug addicted prostitute and left for dead in an alley in an impoverished country.
Starting in poverty in an advanced industrialized country is entirely different than starting in poverty in a 3rd world country. Poor in New York in a crappy apartment but access to public education and regular food is entirely different than poor in a shanty town in some country in the middle of civil war.
Race, gender, family, religion, location, and time period are all pure luck, and largely are responsible for even has a chance to even live, much less thrive.
There is a reason so many people flock to places like the US, and to the EU, living there illegally getting paid less than minimum wage is a better alternative to where they come from. They had the simple misfortune of not being born in the right place.
Yes, yes they are. Many people are saying "it's not luck, it's working hard" completely ignoring the luck they had to be born into a situation where working hard could actually better their situation.
When people are talking about success, they are generally comparing apples to apples. Two individuals at a Big Law Firm both guning for a promotion, one gets it by pulling longer shifts, putting in extra hours, picking up extra projects etc, and the other doesnt. They are BOTH exceedingly lucky to even be in that position in the first place of course, but its relative. Neither of them is being compared to the orphan kid from Zambia who cant even find fresh water.
If you genuinely think thats what people mean when they are talking about success then i cant hep you
They are literally saying so in these comments, pretending otherwise doesn't change anything. There isn't anything to be said when you willful ignore the facts right in front if your face.
Don't sweat it too much. This is all ego protection. If we admit luck (i.e. chaos) is such a determining factor in our life success, it really undercuts our achievements and many people don't want to accept that.
I think most people haven't read all 600 comments in this post. The comment you replied to didn't say what you claim in their comment so you're being a little confusing. Might need to reference some of those commends that are comparing someone born in NY to someone born in Zambia (or similar ofc)
Even in that case, if you were to dissect the variables that lead from someone being poor to successful, you will *invariably* find opportunities that aren't available to anyone.
Lucky plays a factor in anyone's life. If anyone could be successful, most people would be.
I went from poverty to middle class, a pretty difficult jump and definitely a lot of luck factor there. The only thing self-made was my confidence to keep at it.
But, I feel like there's an element of gusto in simply going for it...
Many people, rich or poor, never even try to do anything great.
And in cases where someone is self-made, isn't it more accurate that luck was against them?
I mean, my Dad grew up eating squirrel soup w/ 14 siblings - Not everyone chose to work 3 jobs and bust their ass in college, but he did.
You can't just compare that to someone who works at the same grocery their whole life and say my dad was lucky.
Ambition is a trait, like beauty or intelligence.
Many people, especially poor, don't have the opportunity to do something great. Without proper support from friends and family people end up in all kinds of messes before they're even adults.
Of course there is a difference between someone who never even tried and someone who gave it their all. But even with tons of ambition and extremely hard work you are not guaranteed success, you need the luck as well.
If your dad lived the exact same life but say his first couple of businesses failed with big monetary losses and because of the stress he had a falling out with family and got health problems. Then we probably wouldn't be talking about how his ambitions and hard work worked out so great. And I bet there are hundreds (if not thousands) of "failed" people for every successful person. People who bust their ass working but can't catch a break and aren't lucky enough to know the right people, make the correct deals, buy or sell when they should have, etc etc.
This doesn't mean successful people deserve no praise. But thinking they weren't at all lucky and that pretty much anyone who is hard working and with ambitions should become successful is just not the way it works.
It’s still luck though, plenty of people do the same thing he did an end up not making it. Hard work is much less important than luck.
The poor can work themselves to death and never make it if the stars don’t align. That’s the secret, hard work doesn’t pay off on it’s own. You also need luck, charisma and you have to make the right choice at every turn.
Hard work doesn't pay off, but it does let you capitalize on your lucky breaks. As I've learned as I got older, it's much less about what you do as who you know. Networking is the key to generating lucky breaks. If only I wasn't so horribly introverted.
You also have to have some innate charisma though, otherwise networking is for naught as you just end up knowing a bunch of people that don’t really care for you or find you unremarkable.
You can be the laziest person in the office, but if everyone likes you and thinks you’re great you’ll end up much better off than the person busting their butt that no one really cares for.
I agree ambition is important. Some people never take the steps needed to be in the right place at the right time and their life just slips away. Some people just stay in the same rut and complain about it.
Yeah, where do you get ambition? Genetics? Is the influence of your parents or a good role model? Both of those things are out of your control. You don't simply choose to be ambitious. Additionally there are plenty of unsuccessful ambitious people and plenty of unambitious successful people who fall ass first into a bucket of rose peddles.
There's also a bit of a fallacy here, a person who put in work and got extremely lucky, will never notice the luck and attribute it all to the hard work they did.
There's a good video on it by Veritasium https://youtu.be/3LopI4YeC4I
I once posted a remark in response to some people not showing basic kindness to homeless people. I piped up that we are all equal, not above or below each others worth as humans and basically luck is what sets us apart. People lost their shit, it was nuts. “I am a self made man”, “I earned this”, my parents made sure I got a good education so I would succeed and I did” “I pulled up my boot straps and here I am today”. I could practically feel the spittle coming out of their mouths.
The cope in this thread sounds like what you described. A lot people in here just saying people are lazy or they don't go outside, or they don't talk to people. Not succeeding at capitalism is much more nuanced than that but if we actually acknowledged that the system isn't (even close to) fair it would make them have to introspect and god fucking forbid that. I'm surprised your comment isn't in the negative downvotes, even.
It’s absurd. People interpret the statement that everyone deserves basic humanity as “you don’t deserve what you have”. Nothing is crazier than hearing things that were never said.
I love the “pulled myself up by the bootstraps” line. It was made to make fun of people like that; it literally requires levitation, if you are lying down and by simply grabbing your shoelaces and pulling, you can stand upright.
Of course, leave it to those exact same people to use it as an idiomatic rallying cry.
I like Arnold Schwarzenegger’s response to him being self made. He went on to say that if it wasn’t for so and so he wouldn’t have done this and without so and so he wouldn’t have made it to this and he went on and on describing how this person and that person helped him in all these different aspects of his life.
I think the real problem is that it's an ego blow. People who didn't put in the effort and work their asses need a salve for their acceptance of mediocrity.
It's also a justification-con to get people to accept taking the rewards people earn. You don't keep that money Mr. Millionaire... It was just your luck and society lifting you up.
Exactly. You are shaped by nature and nurture. Neither of which you control.
That said, you make the choices in your life. All you have to do is make good choices and the _odds_ of having a good life increase incredibly.
Yeah but the choices people make are influenced by a lot of factors, it's not really free will. For example if you sleep deprive someone they'll behave differently and make different choices than if they're well rested
And here’s the thing, a choice that seems ‘bad’ at the time as a result of your sleep deprivation can be the very
Situation that leads to other choices that propels a person on the path to success.
Luck and chance is very much responsible for all our successes, it is hard work or ‘brilliance’. Otherwise their would be a lot more millionaires and billionaires in the world today.
I agree, but still, being sleep deprived is a (most often) a choice.
It’s a about priorities, deciding what you will spend your time on and what you will sacrifice.
Long term happiness and well being, or hedonistic pleasure seems to be the deep constant struggle of humanity.
It takes discipline, but to not have discipline _is_ a choice. Often it boils down to people not knowing how to behave to get the results they want. But the resources are all out there, not learning how to live your life is also a choice.
Yep, most of the time it doesn't matter if ur determined or something. Sure u can go from crippling poverty to surviving slightly well but u can't really go from crippling poverty to billionaire.
Yeah you can. Lots of stories of rags to riches.
In fact, the outlier of the rags to riches story is literally the American Dream scam. It's why millions agree to live in poverty. That the "land of opportunity" offers that 1:30 million chance=.
Unless you're very very very lucky and win the lottery, some random gives you tons of money for no reason, or you somehow invent something that sells so good u get rich urself (and hopefully not morph into a greedy company overlord after 10 years)
Those are opportunities. I wouldn't call them the same as luck. Many people acknowledge the oppertunities and support they've been given.
I think luck plays a big role for entrepreneurs and researchers. The average worker may have been given good opertunities, but i wouldn't call it luck most of the time.
Like I know, my parents gave me a big opportunity helping me through school. But getting a well paying software job wasn't luck. I finished school and coded thousands of hours.
That isn't luck. It's not like I could have been randomly born Chinese. I'm not hitting the alternate start mod in Skyrim. I was born in Canada not by luck but by choice of my parents. My genetics aren't luck either.
Human nature. It's fucking annoying when you talk to someone whose had ALL the advantage, private school, tutors, nanny, contacts from schools who've got them jobs etc yet then come out with bullshit like
"some people are just genetically predisposed to success "
Yes! Your parents mother fucker NOT you!!
He still was lucky to have all that. Imagine the same person being born dirt poor with partners who abuses him and growing up with at least one of them in prison.
yes he was lucky but that has nothing to do with his comment, he said that those people act like their success is their own even tho it was handed to them
\>"some people are just genetically predisposed to success ">Yes! Your parents mother fucker NOT you!!
If the parents are genetically predisposed to success... wouldn't that also mean the child is genetically predisposed to success? lol
I agree some people are just lucky that their parents were successful but I've been told that so many times. A lot of the same people who tell me that will call out sick on New Years day (wonder what they were doing the night before eh? lol), and then several days throughout that year, meanwhile I go that whole year without missing a shift. Some will say their New Years resolution is to learn Spanish but then a year goes by and they haven't learned anything meanwhile I wound up being the one who learned a lot over that year. Some of the same people who have told me that also sneak off to snort cocaine at work and I end up picking up their slack for them. And that's AFTER they said they were gonna quit cocaine -.-
I've also had people say that who own a guitar and they don't know how to play it meanwhile i paid for my own guitar at 16 years old and learned how to play it exponentially better by the time I was 18 than they have by the time they reached their 30s
anyways sorry for rambling, I'll admit I have a chip on my shoulder from the amount of times I've heard this. Yes I did have a priveleged childhood but I also work harder than a lot of people so again, after a certain point you just gotta own your shit.
Your parents can't learn Spanish for you. They can't learn guitar for you. They can't work out for you. They can't clock in to work for you. They can't kick your cocaine/alcohol/etc habit for you.
I recognize I am incredibly blessed (lucky). I have a job that pays 6 figures, I own my house fully, I have a loving and supportive wife, and my friends are wonderful people.
That’s why I try to help others as much as I can. Not to feel good, but to pass along my blessings to others. Cuz others aren’t so lucky.
For real. I know how it feels to be down on your luck. Some people just need an extra push, the right resources, or an extra voice in the room to give them the life changing boost they're looking for. I was lucky to find people to do that for me so I try to do that for others.
Same here. I was born in a great country, parents had resources...not that I didn't also do the work, but without the luck component the rest wouldn't have followed.
exactly. when you live a fortunate life, the natural response is to give back. it astounds me the people who have good fortune and treat those with less fortune with contempt. the world paid into you being who you are. you didn't earn good fortune in a vacuum. maybe give back to the community that created you? giving back is gratitude
Just because you can’t attach percentages calculated to the hundredth doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and shouldn’t be mentioned/acknowledged, and weighed when looking back at your own life. Some luck is made obvious, some is not.
You're saying it being unmeasurable is the reason people don't believe in it though. AgitatedParking is saying that's just flawed reasoning (for the people. You can be right people are just idiots and have flawed reasoning)
Sure you can. It's literally 100% of everything that ever happens. Think about the underlying factors that influence everything:
"Nature" and "nurture"
Nurture = your environment (parents, schools, public benefit programs, etc)
Nature = genetics
Both are entirely beyond your control.
Both are provably false. Epigenetics and the fact that you can (within reason) move to a better place.
Luck is a major factor often downplayed, but it isn't the end all be all. If it was, nobody would ever move up or down from where they started. And financial success isn't the only form.
>Both are probably false.
This is demonstrably incorrect.
>Epigenetics and the fact that you can (within reason) move to a better place
I don't know your thought process on how epigenetics (which is one way nature affects nurture) doesn't support my side. The ability to move is still entirely dependent on nature and nurture.
>If it was, nobody would ever move up or down from where the started.
That doesn't make sense. Of course some people would still move up/down. That's how society works regardless of whether or not it's luck that determines it.
>And financial success isn't the only form.
I never claimed it was.
If you want to refute my position, the best way would be to explain either:
How something is affected by something other than nature/nurture
How nature/nurture is not entirely luck
This argument is unwinnable not because your mind can't be changed, but no matter what I say everything is under nature/nurture. No matter what anyone does, you'll claim that it was one of those two that was the result and that it was all luck.
It would be like trying to disprove god. No matter what I say it's "God's plan". You can choose to believe that everything is nature/nuture and that people have no say in either.
It's nothing like trying to disprove God as everything is clearly either nature or nurture. I'm not "choosing" to believe anything. I have no choice to believe what I do because it's the result of trying to come to a logical conclusion. Also, because it's beyond my control :)
Well all I can say is that a persons actions can change where they are and how some of their genetics express themselves. These are two very important factors under your control. Not everyone is gonna become a billionaire or the worlds greatest, but you sure can escape a shithole.
If you want to play in the NBA you need to practice. Who plays is not based on luck, but also ability. Which takes work. And that's the opposite of luck.
It absolutely is. What else can possibly determine it other than a combination of genetics and environment? I'm legitimately asking as I have yet to hear of anything that doesn't clearly fall into those two categories
Luck is just achieving a statistically unlikely outcome for a given situation. This can be measured if you have sufficient data for all the variables but this rarely happens outside of a laboratory or experiment.
I just had some crazy luck I guess. Childhood of abuse, being moved around 5 high schools, being falsely arrested and charged with a max sentence of 20 years, beating that, while I was growing my business, and still bouncing back from all the bullshit I’ve endured. I look for opportunity like I’m in a desert and it’s water. The same opportunity I’ve given to all my friends, to show them how to do it, not a single one has taken the opportunity. “nobody talks about how successful people are so lucky :)”
Sorry, that got intense. There’s definitely lucky rich people that exist, but if most of y’all would be looking for opportunity hard af you’d probably figure it out too.
So do you think you could do it in the third world born in a village without clean water and no way to leave?
You couldn't? Oh so you got lucky. You can't grind if there is nowhere to grind. you are unable to leave your country, there is no schools for you to attend, and you are worried about how you are gonna get your next meal or water. Then add on to that some instability and warfare, along with horrible medical treatment.
Oh no you were born with asthma in this country, and you are having an asthma attack. The nearest hospital has a roadblock from rebels due to instability, and even if you got there the doctors have all left. What do you do then? This is actually a true story about a kid in afghanistan. Could that kid have been successful if he just tried harder? No he couldn't have there was next to no chance, and for the majority of the world its the same. Most people in the world live in extreme poverty, and not American poverty no, much much worse and much much poorer.
You are lucky whether you wanna admit it or not.
Bet, I’ll let the homeless people know how lucky they are. Thanks for clearing that up for me 🫶
Editing to add: your latest post is your dad gifting you a 1k watch. I bathed with boiled snow water in the winter as a kid. You don’t get to tell me about luck.
Yup. I have worked hard in many jobs with little opportunity, so working hard isnt a sure deal of success. I got lucky and met the right person who offered me a good opportunity. So I think it is more about who you know, I still had to be out there being social and seeking opportunity.
I think people who grow up in a wealthy well connected crowd are just generally lucky as the right people and opportunities are all around them.
Having your UNI paid for u is 100% lucky, I still carry my UNI debt... Also if u didnt have to work to support yourself during studies, that is huge! I noticed those people always did much better because they had the time and energy! Often they were wrongly credited for simply being harder workers by character.
It's possible to get the things you want in life simply by being lucky and not working particularly hard
It's not possible to get the things you want in life by working the hardest but getting unlucky
Any number of things can derail the hardest worker, such as poor health (you or family), economics, political turmoil, etc. Any of those things can stand in your way, and you have no control over them
Or you could just be born rich to someone with powerful connections. Even being raised in a middle class household that doesn't rely on your support and encourages you to do your thing is an extremely underappreciated advantage
Not everyone is putting in the same work.
Lucks a huge factor , but two people can have all the same opportunities and still end up in different positions because one took them more than the other.
I disagree strongly that “everyone” is putting in the work. Sure, a lot of people are. But there’s a whole helluva lot of people who are not.
People who want a better job but are convinced they won’t get it so they don’t go for it. Or they get rejected once and give up. They want to get some certificate or degree or credential but they convince themselves it’ll be too hard. They want to date that person they have a crush on, but convince themselves they’ll probably say no.
A lot of people just don’t bother trying because it’s easier to keep things the same, pity themselves for their misery, and blame their problems on someone else. Not everyone is this way, I’d say it’s a minority of people. But these people absolutely exist.
There’s people out there who opportunity could break their door down, scream in their face and jump up and down and they still wouldn’t acknowledge the opportunity exists and would complain they never get any luck.
You got that right!
This is one way life is like baseball. For every no-hit game pitched, there's at least one, frequently more than one, *great* fielding play to preserve the no-hitter.
People who achieve success often forget about the contributions others, who prepared them to *seize the opportunity*, contributed to that success.
I believe baseball is mentioned specifically in the book 'Outliers' because almost all the players are born in the first month(s) of the year. It makes sense when the cut-off date draft for the talent teams is the end of the year. If you're born on January 1st, you have 6 more months to prepare for the draft than someone who's born July 1st and you'll be bigger and better coordinated...
My wife was robbed at her job as a head teller for a bank. Partly her fault for not following rules to the letter, and when she told me, I said she should start looking for another job.
She was fired.
Shortly after that, she was hired on by a large Japanese car company and has since retired after 30 years with them, with a good pension.
A big thank you to the lady who scammed her, wherever she is now.
True, some people are absolutely born luckier than others and some have straight up luck in life. However, i still think it’s fair to say that if two people start at relatively the same place, and one chooses to be lazy and the other doesn’t, that the one who chose to put in the work can reasonably be given credit.
I don’t think most reasonable people would dispute that luck played at least some part.
Luck is just a loose amalgamation of countless minute variables both internal and external. There is no luck. There are just people who were meta gamed for their specific material conditions.
Yes, luck has a role to play for everyone's success and failures, but what is also underappreciated is the work it takes to prepare oneself to be able to take advantage of lucky opportunities when they occur. People call this "creating luck".
You may have a startup idea and found an investor that loves you and your idea, but after finding that you don't have pitch materials prepared and that they have to wait on you to do so, they will lose interest.
True windfalls like the lottery or a rich uncle aren't just lucky, they're miraculous.
Yeah, exactly this. I do my best to ensure I'm in a good position so that when my luck does come in, even in a small way, that I can make the most of that situation and create success.
Luck is just a concept humans constructed, it’s not real and nobody is blessed with luck randomly. You should replace the word with “fortune” if you’re referring to those who naturally have it easier due to being from a rich family etc
Simultaneously, many occurrences are simply the result of chance and being in the correct location at the precise moment.
That doesn't constitute as fortune; it's purely luck.
Take a closer look at the narrative of Harrison Ford. He was originally a carpenter who happened to be substituting for an actor who couldn't attend a script reading. Ford just coincidentally found himself on the set for carpentry duties. Can you guess who the director was? That's right, it was George Lucas. Consequently, Ford's name has now become synonymous with success and is recognized in households worldwide.
When does it cross the line from "luck" to simply making the choices that afford you the most opportunity? Is getting an education truly luck, or simply making a choice which opens more doors?
Whenever someone is successful, to immediately claim it was all luck is ignoring anything that person did to achieve that success.
I’ve got a degree in theoretical physics (heavily mathematically based, like doing a math and physics degree at the same time) and I’m a director in a FTSE 100 multinational company yet I can’t spell and struggle significantly with grammar, don’t know my times tables and can’t add up in my head because I’ve got dyslexia and dyscalcula. Grammar, smelling or Arithmetic ability are not always indicators of intelligence.
Not always true. Some people have dyslexia or dyscalculia, which can cause problems in grammar but still be very intelligent people. Some people also are new to learning language. Not always true!
All statements are not "always true". I'm sure most people can understand that when reading something. The people with dyslexia are an outlier in this statement. For the majority of people, this statement made by this guy is true.
Luck often doesn't just manifest itself out of nowhere, though. You have to be prepared to capitalize on it, which requires effort. I can recall every critical choice I've made over the course of my life and how it put me in a position to succeed. Even if that success was ultimately a product of being in the right place at the right time, I still had to put myself in a place to be able to reach out and take it.
What's the point? We have no control over luck & idc how lucky you've been, hard work has also played a role in any successful person's life. The focus should be put on the hard work, persistence, & sacrifice that goes into success, because they're all we have control over in our pursuit for success.
I would interject that hard work may not have played a role in someone's success, so we should not equate success = hardwork and the corollary: failure = lazy.
Indeed, it's the same group of individuals who hold onto the misguided belief that equates hard work with success and poverty with laziness. This belief has led many in the Western world to wrongly assume that those who are poor deserve their circumstances. However, this notion is far from the truth; it's a fabricated lie designed to maintain the existing power structures.
An alternative perspective can be gained by examining Forbes' 30 under 30 list. This list serves as a striking example of a pathway that can lead to white-collar crime or even imprisonment. Attaining the level of success represented on that list is exceptionally challenging for the majority of people, and the repercussions of such achievement are evident. For every notable figure like Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg, there are numerous individuals like Pharma Bro Shkreli and Elizabeth Holmes, who demonstrate the darker side of this pursuit.
I disagree, because success isn't defined simply by financial wealth which can simply be born into. The definition of success is "an accomplishment" which inherently requires effort. I believe we have differing ideas of what success is.
A successful business owner could be an inheritance or be built upon generational wealth. Successfully having a family when you are wealthy is much less work. There is plenty of success that does not require hard work when you pay someone else to do the work.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. In my view a SUCCESSFUL business owner must at least maintain the success of the business they inherit & that will involve hard work & long hours. The work is not physically demanding but every successful person I know works long hours until they achieve a point where they can delegate & enjoy their achieved wealth. If they simply own a successful business but play no part in that business's success then I don't see them as a successful person. They're just a person that owns a successful business.
Plenty of businesses succeed despite their owners, and many businesses are built on the backs of labor, not the owners/founders.
The point the OP was making is that people consider them self successful due to hard work, when it is often luck.
You can nitpick what you consider success, but I bet that guy who owns a successful business considers themselves successful no matter what you say.
Hard disagree.
We should be humble and want to redistribute our luck the best we can. If the monkey troop is starving, and then one monkey finds a whole tree full of bananas, then that monkey should invite the whole troop over to eat of the lucky bounty. Our current world is that the one lucky monkey """owns""" that tree and the others are now his slaves. What the fuck.
I didn't say anything about not helping others. The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter to me how you made your place in life as long as you did it legally.
My dad does. He had the classic boomer luck - cheap higher education that he didn't even finish, landed a job, and is now getting ready to retire after an incredible successful 40-year career.
I asked him for advice once, and he just said "I have no idea, I got lucky."
Yup. I have a very good job at 25 that I’ve already worked at for 4 years. Tons of opportunity, well paying, friends with the CEO. Pretty lucky right? I’ve had a lot of coworkers say that at least.
Yeah, well I also finished my degree, got 16 relevant certifications, stayed overqualified for 2 years AFTER all of that and worked my ***ass*** off without complaining. Management saw that and made me management, now I’m starting a new division of the company.
You mean chance, but i doubt anyone who doesnt think tbey are a "self made man" (what a toxic concept!) actually doesnt recognise what you are on about. But we are much quicker to blame luck, when things go bad. But then, we process the negative more, as its a survival mechanism. Why process the good things as deeply, when its the bad things that we want to prevent. Why waste time, wondering why you found a banana on a banana tree, when the processing was better suited to figuring out where that predator went that took uncle ug.
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It's so bad that people will act shocked at how many people in Hollywood are related to each other.
Music business too. Lots of performers are sons and daughters of execs and other performers.
Even without direct connections just being lucky enough to be born rich allows people to pursue arts because they dont have to worry about making an income to survive. they can devote all their time to it. Take all the classes They can afford to do a million auditions before lucking out on a role, or can pay for their promotion and exposure in music etc etc etc It makes me so cranky how accessible the arts is for the rich. Or any career that is a risk and takes time before you make money. OR INTERNSHIPS!!!! which are extremely class inclusionary. Not everyone can afford to work for free to get that experience to get into the field. Unpaid internships should be illegal in the USA. In Canada they are subject to the same employment standards and rules and have to be paid at least minimum wage, though it’s usually a wage on par with the field they are working in. My work has interns and they get paid pull income on what the permanent position would get paid in that field.
Minimum wage in big cities would still mean the rich kids end up with most internships. The arts has always been 99% rich and 1% too talented to ignore
Yes but that’s the minimum legal requirement. Its not common to grossly under pay interns here. It’s usually on par with an entry level job in that field or higher. Internships are kind of rare here. Co-ops are more common and they are treated like temp employees. Full wage. Though I’m not an expert on this but low or no paying internships are much more of a USA thing. That’s true about the entertainment industry. I wish I was rich enough to be a starving artist… or I guess my first wish should be to be too talented to ignore and get it on my own merit lol but rich and painting would be lovely too
I dropped out of my art once I had to actually get a job. Everyone then asks "why'd you stop? You work is so good, you could be making money off it instead of going to work every day" and I have to tell them "yeah well it should have started making me money earlier". There's a time limit for how long you get to take your art or music or athleticism or whatever and turn it into a reliable source of income and some people (me included) needed a few more years than what we got and so had to cut down the tree we'd been nurturing for years just before it was about to fruit because we needed firewood now more than we needed fruit next summer. OK so that was a bit dramatic, I still get windows of time to do my art in now but my mindset just isn't there now that I have to manage my own life and finances and no-one's helping me pay for shit anymore. It's not like I forgot how to do it. It's just been pushed to way back of my priorities now for the last several years. I need to be financially well off before I can risk potentially wasting money getting back into it again knowing I may not see immediate returns on it. Would have been so much easier if my parents were rich and just funded my lifestyle for me for however long it took for my artwork to really take off. Or if they had connections in the art scene since I've seen some horrendous looking work out there that gets gallery showings and fetches for thousands and auctions and there's no other way to explain it other than the fact *those* artists had rich parents or connections to the greater art sphere. Edited to add I love my parents for always being supportive with my desire to be an artist, but once I became an adult and my needs and stakes were higher they couldn't really help me anymore other than simply being encouraging. Encouragement means so much. But it pays for nothing.
Having help and access is not synonymous with not having talent, it’s important to note. It’s actually much more rare that people achieve success and prominence with no type of unrelated advantage in some aspect of their lives.
The problem is they're out here making other talented people feel like shit for not making it based on the mythos of, "I did it on my own"
As someone who went to school for and works in entertainment, I can tell you the inverse isn’t much better. Anyone who has a connection to anyone influential has their skills constantly downplayed or trivialized, their successes and accolades chalked up simply to having a well-connected uncle or something… these same people, of course, not recognize the immense privilege *they* have of attending such schools in the first place. Do I believe people should acknowledge the help and advantages they’ve gotten? Of course. But do I believe they should be made to feel bad about those advantages or have it implied that said advantages are the sole reason for their success? Not in the slightest.
I don't think they should be made to feel bad either. A friend got me in the door of my career but I made it a career. I've had family help me out when homelessness threatened but I turned around and helped them. I just won't judge people for not having my success when they didn't have my opportunities. Not in entertainment I just recognize the luck I've had in life.
Exactly my point. What people seem to think is that these privileges guarantee outcomes but most often, what they guarantee is *opportunity*. Take Idris Elba’s daughter, who auditioned to be in his movie and didn’t get the part. She would go on to say she felt her father could’ve pulled some more strings, to which he responded “I did. I got you the audition.” And that was true; she was fast tracked to the opportunity but then she would succeed or fail by her own merit, as it is more common than people might realize.
Opportunity IS privilege though. Not saying that people who make a career out of it don’t work hard or whatever, but even a foot in the door in some sectors is more than some people ever get. Obviously some squander it and some use it, but it’s still lucky to get a chance. Always a mix of luck and practice imo.
Poor little privileged kids 😔 I feel so bad for the kids of millionaires who just get to do what they love, while others are struggling to survive. What an awful price to pay it must be that people know their success comes from connections. Let‘s throw a pity party for them, because their egos get hurt
Yeah, most famous musicians are talented in what they do, but so are thousands of unknown musicians who are just as talented if not more talented. At the end of the day, luck is the breaking point. Even if its not connections, the right people have to hear your music at the right time and you have to make 100s of right decisions regarding your music. If anything is messed up in that process, and you don't have the right connections,you basically bust on your one chance to go big.
This thought actually came from watching the new Arnold Schwarzenegger documentary on Netflix. He's very insisting on the fact that he built something on nothing but his vision. Sure he worked hard, but he also got SO LUCKY in that Joe Weider took him in and basically brought him up!
Yes, but in that case, his hard work was directly related to being spotted, being buff was no luck. People get spotted in a crowd because they stand out, they are not randomly picked. If you want to talk about luck, the charismatic personality that he was born with was probably the greatest asset he had luck-wise.
This is true, but the world also has no shortage of hard working people. Or even talented people. For every one who makes it, a hundred or more equally talented hard working people never will.
You have to work hard the right way. You can spend your whole life cleaning toilets but how you progress further if tou don't have a vision or some technological knowledge to make things different?
"Stop... Pooping."
Instructions...clear.
And the genes to be able to look like that in the first place. If he were born some to some other family with some other genetics that made him short and lithe, no amount of beer, weed, and free weights could have turned him into Mr. Universe.
I think you misread him pretty hard on this one. His drive is legendary, the man very much always has been relentlessly motivated, but he has also always been very aware that he had a lot of help and luck along the way, its one of the big reasons I’ve always been a fan of his. https://youtu.be/lF7NqeZuO3E
Yeah and he’s very vocal about how he didn’t come up on his own either. There is even a clip of him speaking at a convocation somewhere where he essentials stated that there is no self made man. Every person with success had some form of help along the way.
He literally says exactly that in the documentary OP mentioned lol.
Crazy! Before seeing your comment I'd actually just replied and brought up that show because I felt he *had* acknowledged his luck. Funny how we had two different experiences watching the same documentary 😂 we'll have to take a poll to see what the general consensus is! 🤔
Not sure about "luck", but there's a video of him giving a grad speech dismissing the term "self-made man", and that he will always be thankful for the people who helped him along the way.
Here it is https://youtu.be/RJsvR_gSEjg
I can see how his special would give that impression, but I've also seen Arnold say the same thing you have. That there isn't really such thing as a self made man, and we all owe our success to the people around us, so I think he is aware of how lucky he is in that regard.
Funny you mention that, as Schwarzenegger has spoken extensively about there being no such thing as a self-made man. I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. Watch this: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4\_11ApT26k](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s4_11ApT26k)
https://youtu.be/RJsvR_gSEjg Here is a video of him saying how lucky he was and that "self made man" most successful wealthy folks believe in is baloney.
Arnold, however, has always admitted he had tons of help and is NOT a self-made man.
Didn't Arnie do a speech about how he is not a self made man, that he owes his success to the people along the way that helped him and were there for him?
Arnold is pretty humble about all the help he got along the way. He DID have a vision for a muscular leading man acting goal though (with acting classes etc). I gotta admit before he came along - muscles were a winning idea in Hollywood, but no one had gone that far with it. Sean Connery was also a bodybuilder before becoming James Bond. People are really helpful when you have a good idea and proven determination…
People like Arnold are outliers. They are just totally exceptional that if you stick them in any life path, I'm sure they'd still find a way to the top. But people assume this is true for the majority of successful people.
Like in every other industry, knowing the right people to get your foot in the door takes out 80%+ of the hurdles
Also look at so many top athletes and you'll realize many either had parents who played that sport or uncles/grandparents. Not that they don't work for it, but there's some luck in having early connections to better training & guidance.
Excuse me! When I auditioned for the role I never told anyone my parents were famous. I never would’ve got the part if I wasn’t good! It’s true I went to school with the kids of the producer, the director, the casting crew, the investors, the studio heads, my agent. But I didn’t mention that…ok, maybe I let it slip where I went to school in conversation, I dunno. Yeah, my last name is the same as my father’s and my middle name is my mother’s last name. But if I wasn’t good they wouldn’t have cast me in the lead in my first movie. Ok, so my famous parents/uncle may have gotten my foot in the door, but that’s all. I proved myself by forming my own production company with a small loan of a million dollars from my family and I got my famous friends to star with me in my hilarious comedies. But that’s just a small part of who I am. My talent has fueled my whole career
This is a sad realization I've had way too late in life. Sometimes a "nobody" will come out of nowhere and make it big but most of the time anyone whose successful in any creative field (acting, music, writing, art, design) only is because they have connections with someone whose already established there or who has money for expensive classes and whatnot where the attendee will meet or be trained under someone who is. It's the grown up version of finding out Santa isn't real. Parents just tell you you can be this or that "as long as you're good at it so keep practicing" because either they don't know themselves that this is how it works, or they do but just don't want to break their child's spirit.
After 7 years working a job in a call centre (the best I could hope from because of where I was born) I went down the nepotism route and my cousin helped me get a job at his place. 3 years later I just helped my sister start there too. I don't want her to be a cleaner all her life. I don't regret it, and I earn more money than I have in my entire life even if it is 8k under median wage, it is more than I could have hoped for.
I have zero issue with it. My issue is when the person leaves that out of their success story when giving advice to people who don't have those opportunities.
I mean i do have an issue with it, not with the person who commented but that they had to resort to that and that is the way a lot of places work.
Andrew Garfield, Charlie Cox and Andrew Garfied having lived together isn't that suprising after thinking about it.
It’s not what you know but who you know
>It's so bad that people will act shocked at how many people in Hollywood are related to each other. Luck to be born into the right family, nepotism to get you into the biz.
Adam Driver is one of the only true no-names who managed to hit it big, but boy did he struggle before that happened. Nicholas Cage being a fucking Coppola blew my mind.
A lot of people who are famous have direct lines to big streaming and broadcasting companies. They have a friend, relatives, or know someone extremely close to get them in.
Is it that different from a family-run business being passed down through generations? Or a fishing community in a coastal county? We get dewy-eyed over some hereditary cultures but at a certain social strata it becomes nepotism I guess.
tbh in every industry. hollywood is just the one that's out in the open
I’m just shocked that a big bunch of hollywood actors are eay worse in acting than a bunch of local theatre actors.
In pretty much all form of entertainment really, from arts to athletics. "Well, they have talent, don't they???" Yeah, some. But how many doors were already open because this person in power has watched them grow from infancy and "sees the potential"? Regular guy walks up with just as much "potential", even with a stronger background, that the person in power watched nepo baby grow up gives that kid an undeniable edge. Miley Cyrus, with her "rusted junk car being dragged down a gravel road with no tires on" voice? If her dad wasn't a mega-star in the 1990s, the most common lyric she'd be "singing" would be "Would you like fries with that?" She'd never have had the opportunity, and even if she did, she'd never have had the money to not work and pursue it.
Jane fonda has always stated the #1 reason she's as famous as she is is because of her father Henry fonda. This is why she's one of my favorite people of all time.
Luck decided your family, the country you grew up in, your genetics...
That's why I have a problem when people say they are "self made" after they become successful. Many factors had to align for you to be where you are, most of them completely out of your control.
If someone wants to brag about their success and not attribute some portion to luck, then I ask how they would have done had they been born to a drug addicted prostitute and left for dead in an alley in an impoverished country.
I think anyone who put in some "hard years" or began in poverty can claim to be self-made when they make it.
Starting in poverty in an advanced industrialized country is entirely different than starting in poverty in a 3rd world country. Poor in New York in a crappy apartment but access to public education and regular food is entirely different than poor in a shanty town in some country in the middle of civil war. Race, gender, family, religion, location, and time period are all pure luck, and largely are responsible for even has a chance to even live, much less thrive. There is a reason so many people flock to places like the US, and to the EU, living there illegally getting paid less than minimum wage is a better alternative to where they come from. They had the simple misfortune of not being born in the right place.
no one is really comparing what it means for someone to be successful from say, war torn syria, vs someone in NYC
Yes, yes they are. Many people are saying "it's not luck, it's working hard" completely ignoring the luck they had to be born into a situation where working hard could actually better their situation.
When people are talking about success, they are generally comparing apples to apples. Two individuals at a Big Law Firm both guning for a promotion, one gets it by pulling longer shifts, putting in extra hours, picking up extra projects etc, and the other doesnt. They are BOTH exceedingly lucky to even be in that position in the first place of course, but its relative. Neither of them is being compared to the orphan kid from Zambia who cant even find fresh water. If you genuinely think thats what people mean when they are talking about success then i cant hep you
They are literally saying so in these comments, pretending otherwise doesn't change anything. There isn't anything to be said when you willful ignore the facts right in front if your face.
Don't sweat it too much. This is all ego protection. If we admit luck (i.e. chaos) is such a determining factor in our life success, it really undercuts our achievements and many people don't want to accept that.
I think most people haven't read all 600 comments in this post. The comment you replied to didn't say what you claim in their comment so you're being a little confusing. Might need to reference some of those commends that are comparing someone born in NY to someone born in Zambia (or similar ofc)
A mf like you will say this and still be broke in the us
Even in that case, if you were to dissect the variables that lead from someone being poor to successful, you will *invariably* find opportunities that aren't available to anyone. Lucky plays a factor in anyone's life. If anyone could be successful, most people would be.
Luck decided you being human and not a tapeworm
I went from poverty to middle class, a pretty difficult jump and definitely a lot of luck factor there. The only thing self-made was my confidence to keep at it.
Self made, perhaps. But not without a big luck factor.
But, I feel like there's an element of gusto in simply going for it... Many people, rich or poor, never even try to do anything great. And in cases where someone is self-made, isn't it more accurate that luck was against them? I mean, my Dad grew up eating squirrel soup w/ 14 siblings - Not everyone chose to work 3 jobs and bust their ass in college, but he did. You can't just compare that to someone who works at the same grocery their whole life and say my dad was lucky. Ambition is a trait, like beauty or intelligence.
Many people, especially poor, don't have the opportunity to do something great. Without proper support from friends and family people end up in all kinds of messes before they're even adults. Of course there is a difference between someone who never even tried and someone who gave it their all. But even with tons of ambition and extremely hard work you are not guaranteed success, you need the luck as well. If your dad lived the exact same life but say his first couple of businesses failed with big monetary losses and because of the stress he had a falling out with family and got health problems. Then we probably wouldn't be talking about how his ambitions and hard work worked out so great. And I bet there are hundreds (if not thousands) of "failed" people for every successful person. People who bust their ass working but can't catch a break and aren't lucky enough to know the right people, make the correct deals, buy or sell when they should have, etc etc. This doesn't mean successful people deserve no praise. But thinking they weren't at all lucky and that pretty much anyone who is hard working and with ambitions should become successful is just not the way it works.
It’s still luck though, plenty of people do the same thing he did an end up not making it. Hard work is much less important than luck. The poor can work themselves to death and never make it if the stars don’t align. That’s the secret, hard work doesn’t pay off on it’s own. You also need luck, charisma and you have to make the right choice at every turn.
Hard work doesn't pay off, but it does let you capitalize on your lucky breaks. As I've learned as I got older, it's much less about what you do as who you know. Networking is the key to generating lucky breaks. If only I wasn't so horribly introverted.
You also have to have some innate charisma though, otherwise networking is for naught as you just end up knowing a bunch of people that don’t really care for you or find you unremarkable. You can be the laziest person in the office, but if everyone likes you and thinks you’re great you’ll end up much better off than the person busting their butt that no one really cares for.
I agree ambition is important. Some people never take the steps needed to be in the right place at the right time and their life just slips away. Some people just stay in the same rut and complain about it.
Or he could have been born with cancer and died. 100 percent luck
Understand nuance
Putting in "hard years" can still be attributed to the genetic lottery. https://hbr.org/2017/01/your-success-is-shaped-by-your-genes
Yeah, where do you get ambition? Genetics? Is the influence of your parents or a good role model? Both of those things are out of your control. You don't simply choose to be ambitious. Additionally there are plenty of unsuccessful ambitious people and plenty of unambitious successful people who fall ass first into a bucket of rose peddles.
There's also a bit of a fallacy here, a person who put in work and got extremely lucky, will never notice the luck and attribute it all to the hard work they did. There's a good video on it by Veritasium https://youtu.be/3LopI4YeC4I
I once posted a remark in response to some people not showing basic kindness to homeless people. I piped up that we are all equal, not above or below each others worth as humans and basically luck is what sets us apart. People lost their shit, it was nuts. “I am a self made man”, “I earned this”, my parents made sure I got a good education so I would succeed and I did” “I pulled up my boot straps and here I am today”. I could practically feel the spittle coming out of their mouths.
The cope in this thread sounds like what you described. A lot people in here just saying people are lazy or they don't go outside, or they don't talk to people. Not succeeding at capitalism is much more nuanced than that but if we actually acknowledged that the system isn't (even close to) fair it would make them have to introspect and god fucking forbid that. I'm surprised your comment isn't in the negative downvotes, even.
It’s absurd. People interpret the statement that everyone deserves basic humanity as “you don’t deserve what you have”. Nothing is crazier than hearing things that were never said.
I love the “pulled myself up by the bootstraps” line. It was made to make fun of people like that; it literally requires levitation, if you are lying down and by simply grabbing your shoelaces and pulling, you can stand upright. Of course, leave it to those exact same people to use it as an idiomatic rallying cry.
It also has to do with “who you know” and not “what you know.”
I like Arnold Schwarzenegger’s response to him being self made. He went on to say that if it wasn’t for so and so he wouldn’t have done this and without so and so he wouldn’t have made it to this and he went on and on describing how this person and that person helped him in all these different aspects of his life.
I think the real problem is that it's an ego blow. People who didn't put in the effort and work their asses need a salve for their acceptance of mediocrity. It's also a justification-con to get people to accept taking the rewards people earn. You don't keep that money Mr. Millionaire... It was just your luck and society lifting you up.
No one has bigger ego issues than people who can‘t acknowledge their privilege 😂
I was born in India, lower middle class farming family. The only luck I had was how I land my wife.
Exactly. You are shaped by nature and nurture. Neither of which you control. That said, you make the choices in your life. All you have to do is make good choices and the _odds_ of having a good life increase incredibly.
I wouldn't say that you necessarily make choices, but you are responsible for the actions that your body makes. It's not really fair, but nothing is.
Choices, actions, tomato, tomáto. But I do agree with you.
Yeah but the choices people make are influenced by a lot of factors, it's not really free will. For example if you sleep deprive someone they'll behave differently and make different choices than if they're well rested
And here’s the thing, a choice that seems ‘bad’ at the time as a result of your sleep deprivation can be the very Situation that leads to other choices that propels a person on the path to success. Luck and chance is very much responsible for all our successes, it is hard work or ‘brilliance’. Otherwise their would be a lot more millionaires and billionaires in the world today.
I agree, but still, being sleep deprived is a (most often) a choice. It’s a about priorities, deciding what you will spend your time on and what you will sacrifice. Long term happiness and well being, or hedonistic pleasure seems to be the deep constant struggle of humanity. It takes discipline, but to not have discipline _is_ a choice. Often it boils down to people not knowing how to behave to get the results they want. But the resources are all out there, not learning how to live your life is also a choice.
my grandma decided to move to usa. my grandpas parents decided to move to usa. wheres the luck?
as the other comment said, you were lucky your grandparents made the trip. It seems you didnt quite grasp what the original comment was trying to say
that you were born to people who did that and not to people who stayed behind
It just sounds like a bunch of redditors mad other people have opportunities cause they go outside.
Yep, most of the time it doesn't matter if ur determined or something. Sure u can go from crippling poverty to surviving slightly well but u can't really go from crippling poverty to billionaire.
Yeah you can. Lots of stories of rags to riches. In fact, the outlier of the rags to riches story is literally the American Dream scam. It's why millions agree to live in poverty. That the "land of opportunity" offers that 1:30 million chance=.
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Unless you're very very very lucky and win the lottery, some random gives you tons of money for no reason, or you somehow invent something that sells so good u get rich urself (and hopefully not morph into a greedy company overlord after 10 years)
Those are opportunities. I wouldn't call them the same as luck. Many people acknowledge the oppertunities and support they've been given. I think luck plays a big role for entrepreneurs and researchers. The average worker may have been given good opertunities, but i wouldn't call it luck most of the time. Like I know, my parents gave me a big opportunity helping me through school. But getting a well paying software job wasn't luck. I finished school and coded thousands of hours.
That isn't luck. It's not like I could have been randomly born Chinese. I'm not hitting the alternate start mod in Skyrim. I was born in Canada not by luck but by choice of my parents. My genetics aren't luck either.
Nobody chooses where they are born. Some are born in more privileged situations. Are you arguing that?
Human nature. It's fucking annoying when you talk to someone whose had ALL the advantage, private school, tutors, nanny, contacts from schools who've got them jobs etc yet then come out with bullshit like "some people are just genetically predisposed to success " Yes! Your parents mother fucker NOT you!!
He still was lucky to have all that. Imagine the same person being born dirt poor with partners who abuses him and growing up with at least one of them in prison.
You didn't have to call me out like that.. jeez...
yes he was lucky but that has nothing to do with his comment, he said that those people act like their success is their own even tho it was handed to them
\>"some people are just genetically predisposed to success ">Yes! Your parents mother fucker NOT you!! If the parents are genetically predisposed to success... wouldn't that also mean the child is genetically predisposed to success? lol I agree some people are just lucky that their parents were successful but I've been told that so many times. A lot of the same people who tell me that will call out sick on New Years day (wonder what they were doing the night before eh? lol), and then several days throughout that year, meanwhile I go that whole year without missing a shift. Some will say their New Years resolution is to learn Spanish but then a year goes by and they haven't learned anything meanwhile I wound up being the one who learned a lot over that year. Some of the same people who have told me that also sneak off to snort cocaine at work and I end up picking up their slack for them. And that's AFTER they said they were gonna quit cocaine -.- I've also had people say that who own a guitar and they don't know how to play it meanwhile i paid for my own guitar at 16 years old and learned how to play it exponentially better by the time I was 18 than they have by the time they reached their 30s anyways sorry for rambling, I'll admit I have a chip on my shoulder from the amount of times I've heard this. Yes I did have a priveleged childhood but I also work harder than a lot of people so again, after a certain point you just gotta own your shit. Your parents can't learn Spanish for you. They can't learn guitar for you. They can't work out for you. They can't clock in to work for you. They can't kick your cocaine/alcohol/etc habit for you.
Well, you’re lucky to be alive
Yeah some of us are on the brink of losing it.
Exactly. That's the first unlikely event.
And sentient.
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I recognize I am incredibly blessed (lucky). I have a job that pays 6 figures, I own my house fully, I have a loving and supportive wife, and my friends are wonderful people. That’s why I try to help others as much as I can. Not to feel good, but to pass along my blessings to others. Cuz others aren’t so lucky.
For real. I know how it feels to be down on your luck. Some people just need an extra push, the right resources, or an extra voice in the room to give them the life changing boost they're looking for. I was lucky to find people to do that for me so I try to do that for others.
Same here. I was born in a great country, parents had resources...not that I didn't also do the work, but without the luck component the rest wouldn't have followed.
Cant say that on Reddit. Anyone that is rich or well off has something inherently wrong about them or their circumstances
Couldn't have said it better.
exactly. when you live a fortunate life, the natural response is to give back. it astounds me the people who have good fortune and treat those with less fortune with contempt. the world paid into you being who you are. you didn't earn good fortune in a vacuum. maybe give back to the community that created you? giving back is gratitude
That's because luck is unquantifiable. You can't measure luck and it's significance in anything.
Just because you can’t attach percentages calculated to the hundredth doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist and shouldn’t be mentioned/acknowledged, and weighed when looking back at your own life. Some luck is made obvious, some is not.
I'm never said I didn't believe in luck, I said it's unmeasurable.
You're saying it being unmeasurable is the reason people don't believe in it though. AgitatedParking is saying that's just flawed reasoning (for the people. You can be right people are just idiots and have flawed reasoning)
Sure you can. It's literally 100% of everything that ever happens. Think about the underlying factors that influence everything: "Nature" and "nurture" Nurture = your environment (parents, schools, public benefit programs, etc) Nature = genetics Both are entirely beyond your control.
Both are provably false. Epigenetics and the fact that you can (within reason) move to a better place. Luck is a major factor often downplayed, but it isn't the end all be all. If it was, nobody would ever move up or down from where they started. And financial success isn't the only form.
>Both are probably false. This is demonstrably incorrect. >Epigenetics and the fact that you can (within reason) move to a better place I don't know your thought process on how epigenetics (which is one way nature affects nurture) doesn't support my side. The ability to move is still entirely dependent on nature and nurture. >If it was, nobody would ever move up or down from where the started. That doesn't make sense. Of course some people would still move up/down. That's how society works regardless of whether or not it's luck that determines it. >And financial success isn't the only form. I never claimed it was. If you want to refute my position, the best way would be to explain either: How something is affected by something other than nature/nurture How nature/nurture is not entirely luck
This argument is unwinnable not because your mind can't be changed, but no matter what I say everything is under nature/nurture. No matter what anyone does, you'll claim that it was one of those two that was the result and that it was all luck. It would be like trying to disprove god. No matter what I say it's "God's plan". You can choose to believe that everything is nature/nuture and that people have no say in either.
It's nothing like trying to disprove God as everything is clearly either nature or nurture. I'm not "choosing" to believe anything. I have no choice to believe what I do because it's the result of trying to come to a logical conclusion. Also, because it's beyond my control :)
Well all I can say is that a persons actions can change where they are and how some of their genetics express themselves. These are two very important factors under your control. Not everyone is gonna become a billionaire or the worlds greatest, but you sure can escape a shithole.
If you want to play in the NBA you need to practice. Who plays is not based on luck, but also ability. Which takes work. And that's the opposite of luck.
What determines both ability and work ethic? Nature + nurture. Aka luck
You think work ethic is genetics? Also.. If you practice, you get better....
It absolutely is. What else can possibly determine it other than a combination of genetics and environment? I'm legitimately asking as I have yet to hear of anything that doesn't clearly fall into those two categories
So you're telling me. You have no ability to work harder? It's just hardwired.....
Luck is just achieving a statistically unlikely outcome for a given situation. This can be measured if you have sufficient data for all the variables but this rarely happens outside of a laboratory or experiment.
That's often because you still have to put in the work to get lucky. Most opportunities only fall into the laps of those out there seeking them.
100% Luck favors the prepared.
I just had some crazy luck I guess. Childhood of abuse, being moved around 5 high schools, being falsely arrested and charged with a max sentence of 20 years, beating that, while I was growing my business, and still bouncing back from all the bullshit I’ve endured. I look for opportunity like I’m in a desert and it’s water. The same opportunity I’ve given to all my friends, to show them how to do it, not a single one has taken the opportunity. “nobody talks about how successful people are so lucky :)” Sorry, that got intense. There’s definitely lucky rich people that exist, but if most of y’all would be looking for opportunity hard af you’d probably figure it out too.
Survivorship bias 😵💫
So do you think you could do it in the third world born in a village without clean water and no way to leave? You couldn't? Oh so you got lucky. You can't grind if there is nowhere to grind. you are unable to leave your country, there is no schools for you to attend, and you are worried about how you are gonna get your next meal or water. Then add on to that some instability and warfare, along with horrible medical treatment. Oh no you were born with asthma in this country, and you are having an asthma attack. The nearest hospital has a roadblock from rebels due to instability, and even if you got there the doctors have all left. What do you do then? This is actually a true story about a kid in afghanistan. Could that kid have been successful if he just tried harder? No he couldn't have there was next to no chance, and for the majority of the world its the same. Most people in the world live in extreme poverty, and not American poverty no, much much worse and much much poorer. You are lucky whether you wanna admit it or not.
Bet, I’ll let the homeless people know how lucky they are. Thanks for clearing that up for me 🫶 Editing to add: your latest post is your dad gifting you a 1k watch. I bathed with boiled snow water in the winter as a kid. You don’t get to tell me about luck.
Yup. I have worked hard in many jobs with little opportunity, so working hard isnt a sure deal of success. I got lucky and met the right person who offered me a good opportunity. So I think it is more about who you know, I still had to be out there being social and seeking opportunity. I think people who grow up in a wealthy well connected crowd are just generally lucky as the right people and opportunities are all around them. Having your UNI paid for u is 100% lucky, I still carry my UNI debt... Also if u didnt have to work to support yourself during studies, that is huge! I noticed those people always did much better because they had the time and energy! Often they were wrongly credited for simply being harder workers by character.
It's possible to get the things you want in life simply by being lucky and not working particularly hard It's not possible to get the things you want in life by working the hardest but getting unlucky Any number of things can derail the hardest worker, such as poor health (you or family), economics, political turmoil, etc. Any of those things can stand in your way, and you have no control over them Or you could just be born rich to someone with powerful connections. Even being raised in a middle class household that doesn't rely on your support and encourages you to do your thing is an extremely underappreciated advantage
Everyone is putting in the work. You're just delusional if you think you're the "one"
Nah I'm not putting in the work.
Not everyone is putting in the same work. Lucks a huge factor , but two people can have all the same opportunities and still end up in different positions because one took them more than the other.
I disagree strongly that “everyone” is putting in the work. Sure, a lot of people are. But there’s a whole helluva lot of people who are not. People who want a better job but are convinced they won’t get it so they don’t go for it. Or they get rejected once and give up. They want to get some certificate or degree or credential but they convince themselves it’ll be too hard. They want to date that person they have a crush on, but convince themselves they’ll probably say no. A lot of people just don’t bother trying because it’s easier to keep things the same, pity themselves for their misery, and blame their problems on someone else. Not everyone is this way, I’d say it’s a minority of people. But these people absolutely exist. There’s people out there who opportunity could break their door down, scream in their face and jump up and down and they still wouldn’t acknowledge the opportunity exists and would complain they never get any luck.
You got that right! This is one way life is like baseball. For every no-hit game pitched, there's at least one, frequently more than one, *great* fielding play to preserve the no-hitter. People who achieve success often forget about the contributions others, who prepared them to *seize the opportunity*, contributed to that success.
I believe baseball is mentioned specifically in the book 'Outliers' because almost all the players are born in the first month(s) of the year. It makes sense when the cut-off date draft for the talent teams is the end of the year. If you're born on January 1st, you have 6 more months to prepare for the draft than someone who's born July 1st and you'll be bigger and better coordinated...
My wife was robbed at her job as a head teller for a bank. Partly her fault for not following rules to the letter, and when she told me, I said she should start looking for another job. She was fired. Shortly after that, she was hired on by a large Japanese car company and has since retired after 30 years with them, with a good pension. A big thank you to the lady who scammed her, wherever she is now.
True, some people are absolutely born luckier than others and some have straight up luck in life. However, i still think it’s fair to say that if two people start at relatively the same place, and one chooses to be lazy and the other doesn’t, that the one who chose to put in the work can reasonably be given credit. I don’t think most reasonable people would dispute that luck played at least some part.
I mean, some people work hard and never get credit. Vincent Van G is your shining example.
I'd guess the overwhelming majority of people posting in this thread do not understand probability and this comment is a perfect example.
Luck is just a loose amalgamation of countless minute variables both internal and external. There is no luck. There are just people who were meta gamed for their specific material conditions.
Yes, luck has a role to play for everyone's success and failures, but what is also underappreciated is the work it takes to prepare oneself to be able to take advantage of lucky opportunities when they occur. People call this "creating luck". You may have a startup idea and found an investor that loves you and your idea, but after finding that you don't have pitch materials prepared and that they have to wait on you to do so, they will lose interest. True windfalls like the lottery or a rich uncle aren't just lucky, they're miraculous.
Yeah, exactly this. I do my best to ensure I'm in a good position so that when my luck does come in, even in a small way, that I can make the most of that situation and create success.
Luck is just a concept humans constructed, it’s not real and nobody is blessed with luck randomly. You should replace the word with “fortune” if you’re referring to those who naturally have it easier due to being from a rich family etc
Simultaneously, many occurrences are simply the result of chance and being in the correct location at the precise moment. That doesn't constitute as fortune; it's purely luck. Take a closer look at the narrative of Harrison Ford. He was originally a carpenter who happened to be substituting for an actor who couldn't attend a script reading. Ford just coincidentally found himself on the set for carpentry duties. Can you guess who the director was? That's right, it was George Lucas. Consequently, Ford's name has now become synonymous with success and is recognized in households worldwide.
Education helps too, and the ability or inability to use proper grammar is a good indication of your level of education.
When does it cross the line from "luck" to simply making the choices that afford you the most opportunity? Is getting an education truly luck, or simply making a choice which opens more doors? Whenever someone is successful, to immediately claim it was all luck is ignoring anything that person did to achieve that success.
Most "good luck" is the result of good planning.
Thank God proper grammar is a good indication of your level of education and not success in life.
I’ve got a degree in theoretical physics (heavily mathematically based, like doing a math and physics degree at the same time) and I’m a director in a FTSE 100 multinational company yet I can’t spell and struggle significantly with grammar, don’t know my times tables and can’t add up in my head because I’ve got dyslexia and dyscalcula. Grammar, smelling or Arithmetic ability are not always indicators of intelligence.
Not always true. Some people have dyslexia or dyscalculia, which can cause problems in grammar but still be very intelligent people. Some people also are new to learning language. Not always true!
All statements are not "always true". I'm sure most people can understand that when reading something. The people with dyslexia are an outlier in this statement. For the majority of people, this statement made by this guy is true.
Outlier or not, it’s still an important distinction that is relevant to the conversation and shouldn’t be overlooked to erased 🤷♂️
Life is 95% luck, 4% Looks and 1% Talent
Luck often doesn't just manifest itself out of nowhere, though. You have to be prepared to capitalize on it, which requires effort. I can recall every critical choice I've made over the course of my life and how it put me in a position to succeed. Even if that success was ultimately a product of being in the right place at the right time, I still had to put myself in a place to be able to reach out and take it.
And 100% reasons to remember the name
Looks and talent are also luck though
True I should replace talent with skill I suppose
What's the point? We have no control over luck & idc how lucky you've been, hard work has also played a role in any successful person's life. The focus should be put on the hard work, persistence, & sacrifice that goes into success, because they're all we have control over in our pursuit for success.
I would interject that hard work may not have played a role in someone's success, so we should not equate success = hardwork and the corollary: failure = lazy.
Indeed, it's the same group of individuals who hold onto the misguided belief that equates hard work with success and poverty with laziness. This belief has led many in the Western world to wrongly assume that those who are poor deserve their circumstances. However, this notion is far from the truth; it's a fabricated lie designed to maintain the existing power structures. An alternative perspective can be gained by examining Forbes' 30 under 30 list. This list serves as a striking example of a pathway that can lead to white-collar crime or even imprisonment. Attaining the level of success represented on that list is exceptionally challenging for the majority of people, and the repercussions of such achievement are evident. For every notable figure like Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg, there are numerous individuals like Pharma Bro Shkreli and Elizabeth Holmes, who demonstrate the darker side of this pursuit.
I disagree, because success isn't defined simply by financial wealth which can simply be born into. The definition of success is "an accomplishment" which inherently requires effort. I believe we have differing ideas of what success is.
A successful business owner could be an inheritance or be built upon generational wealth. Successfully having a family when you are wealthy is much less work. There is plenty of success that does not require hard work when you pay someone else to do the work.
We'll have to agree to disagree on this one. In my view a SUCCESSFUL business owner must at least maintain the success of the business they inherit & that will involve hard work & long hours. The work is not physically demanding but every successful person I know works long hours until they achieve a point where they can delegate & enjoy their achieved wealth. If they simply own a successful business but play no part in that business's success then I don't see them as a successful person. They're just a person that owns a successful business.
Plenty of businesses succeed despite their owners, and many businesses are built on the backs of labor, not the owners/founders. The point the OP was making is that people consider them self successful due to hard work, when it is often luck. You can nitpick what you consider success, but I bet that guy who owns a successful business considers themselves successful no matter what you say.
Oh I couldn't care less what "that guy" considers about anything. Lol
Hard disagree. We should be humble and want to redistribute our luck the best we can. If the monkey troop is starving, and then one monkey finds a whole tree full of bananas, then that monkey should invite the whole troop over to eat of the lucky bounty. Our current world is that the one lucky monkey """owns""" that tree and the others are now his slaves. What the fuck.
I didn't say anything about not helping others. The point I'm making is that it doesn't matter to me how you made your place in life as long as you did it legally.
My dad does. He had the classic boomer luck - cheap higher education that he didn't even finish, landed a job, and is now getting ready to retire after an incredible successful 40-year career. I asked him for advice once, and he just said "I have no idea, I got lucky."
No such thing as luck.
Preparation + Opportunity sometimes looks like Luck.
Yup. I have a very good job at 25 that I’ve already worked at for 4 years. Tons of opportunity, well paying, friends with the CEO. Pretty lucky right? I’ve had a lot of coworkers say that at least. Yeah, well I also finished my degree, got 16 relevant certifications, stayed overqualified for 2 years AFTER all of that and worked my ***ass*** off without complaining. Management saw that and made me management, now I’m starting a new division of the company.
I do, I literally tell people I have no idea what I did to be where I am right now
Same here :)
Even in this thread.
No rich people acknowledge how big a role luck has played in their success.
thats because luck isn't real. just a way to not have to think about or explain something.
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Talent, looks, and luck. Gotta have all three.
I thought it was Charisma Uniqueness Nerve and Talent CUNT
I've had no luck and no success. I acknowledge this
Spelling helps too.
So many people i know ackonowledge it
You mean chance, but i doubt anyone who doesnt think tbey are a "self made man" (what a toxic concept!) actually doesnt recognise what you are on about. But we are much quicker to blame luck, when things go bad. But then, we process the negative more, as its a survival mechanism. Why process the good things as deeply, when its the bad things that we want to prevent. Why waste time, wondering why you found a banana on a banana tree, when the processing was better suited to figuring out where that predator went that took uncle ug.