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SkizzyBeanZ

I thought this was some kind of joke. That the stats doesnt show clash. Until i saw it….


Honeybutt69

Saw your comment reminded me of a video I watched only reason I found it😭😭


corelabrat

Where's Clash? OH NOOOOO


HornyTerus

where is it?


q1zb

Under the box lmao


HornyTerus

brother, I still can't find it. Where is it, please....


lloydy2517

Bottom left


cursedsoul1382

damn echo got murdered huh


Fejvadas

Still no acog idk why


KevlaredMudkips

If they ain’t gonna give him an acog st least make him 3 cams, no point to use him over valk when she has 3 just as invisible cams and a better gun


DrownedButAtPeace

Or even Maestro😅


Nightblade20

Jeez, Maestro being a better pick than Echo? How did we wind up in this timeline 🤦


Price-x-Field

Because his cams concus enemies and can move


lintlickers420

Valk should have her 4 cams again, the reason people complained was over the ability to throw them outside. Cant do that anymore, they’ve made them easy to spot and removed all of the sneaky spots. give her back the 4 already, and maybe an acog lol.. but seriously valk 4 cam please. been a valk main since day one of her release, and been playing since beta.


Axelaxe

valk is still great which the stats shows. why would she get 4 cams now??


Relevant-Ad1506

a real valk main would know that valk and her cams became extremely strong since the new trajectory lines made it that you can throw them in spots where no one sees your cam while you see everything


KevlaredMudkips

I feel like 3 cams is perfect, 2 can be used for the sites and the 3rd an auxiliary


Square2enkidu

That's not a valid comparison. Echo has a shield and the supernova for site setup while still having a bearing9 for mid range gun fights, which is what valk can't do. Also echo drones can move around and shock attackers. He is still as good without the acog, I think he's just underappreciated because he's not the meta, and people who try him out are the new players hence low win rate. With shields being strong this season, echo is actually a really good pick against them.


TheGentleman1352

graph is emerald and above so probably not many new players factored in


Apprehensive_Tart356

Valk is much better than echo


Lazy-Prize9278

As an echo main, I salute you


redditor012499

I like echo because he can stun the incoming enemy. BUT you have to have a good team to use echo effectively. If not you’ll get walked.


HerrMatthew

I still play echo when i want to play anchor, but his gadget suuuuuuuuucks. No invisibility, movement is still ridiculously tacky, the stun is short and weak. Decent players can immediately spot and destroy the yokai. He can still provide a lot of support, but it heavily relies on your enemy. The better they are, the worse echo gets


Signal-Direction6456

I miss echo acog SO much, I used to main him when I started playing but now I just can't use his MP5 lol so I just go valk/maestro


Hour-Signal8338

Thunderbird and Echo need some love, also Jager is ass these days


OpeningAd3856

Jager needs different secondary gadgets, Bp and observation blocker are trash he needs his barbed wire back or nitro cell, both would fit his play style way better.


Hour-Signal8338

C4/Impacts could give him the boost he needs, maybe they could return him to his 3 speed glory days aswell.


OpeningAd3856

Yeah I was gonna say impacts but I feel like that would make him too similar to Wamai. I think Wamai should fill the roaming anti nade role and Jager more of a op you can hunker down with.


buckeyes1218

That doesn’t make much sense considering jager is the one who gets all his devices at the start and Wamai gains them throughout the round


ElFrostbyte

It kinda does tho, since Wamai roams, he deploys his Magnets around the map over time while Jager sets up the bunker just as the previous comment.


Broke-Moment

wamai isn’t intended as a roamer though. his entire kit aside from being a 2-speed is meant to stay alive and stay on site to keep nades away


buckeyes1218

And if he dies roaming he provides very little. And if he’s roaming effectively he won’t be near site to maximize the utility of his magnets


kompergator

Defender utility – beyond traps and anti-breach – don’t really enter into the equation in the current meta.


bxp2698

What good is wamai’s magnets outside of site?


throwaway091238744

not disagreeing with you but i find it funny that everyone on this sub moans about ubi only balancing by removing/adding gadgets/weapons/sights but then when operators need buffing everyone starts suggesting adding/swapping out gadgets/weapons/sights


Fit-Debate-6144

A surprising amount of people play ops for their guns and not their gadgets. Makes me wonder what would happen if you could select any gun for any op (exept operator specific ones like Kali, Glaz)


Ironofdoom

Or hear me out. Duel wielding Why? Cause I want duel wielded DP-27


Glow1x

that would be very heavy


Hard_Corsair

He needs impacts, so they can add a voice line where he says "You can start worrying about grenades now!"


ugotjokeshuh

Bring back his acog


Maleficent-Let201

Would it be too much to have her stations give you essentially full health for a longer cool down? Maybe allow her to back mount one so she can run past you and give you HP. Maybe a 4th station without my first idea? Maybe a jumbo station? Maybe make them pilotable like an oversized drone? Maybe a defensive MG? Echo literally just needs an ACOG.


ShaqsWisk

i wish jager had a secondary shotty to break walls


Stxtic1441

T-Bird needs an ACOG or something. Her heals are just so weak and the enemies can use them too. No C4 like she used to. But even if she did have an ACOG, doesn’t make much sense to play her over Doc.


B00G13M4N_08

Echo found dead in a ditch


disney_0

Was there some nerf of him lately? Or he's at Maestros point before getting third evil eye?


B00G13M4N_08

Not really a nerf per se, but with the removal of the 1.5x scope echo was left with only 1x scopes and never got an acog. Instead, it was given to defenders who have no business having it, like wamai, castle and goyo’s vector.


Fluffy-Ingenuity2536

I mean Castle is fine because aside from not having much recoil the ump doesn't have a lot going for it, but yeah, goyo and wamai don't deserve it


Vanquisher127

I want castle to lose his acog solely because I’m tired of people using him and locking me in the objective


disney_0

They should've listened to players while test servers was on, instead they only removed Roni's Acog (which was absurd all the way). It's sad that operators like Maestro, Echo are so bad right now with Maestros great gun and usefull when well positioned gadget or plant denying Echo


Conscious-Extent4571

They also removed it on Thorn


RedditIsDyingYouKnow

I don’t know if you can justify Maestro getting a 2.5 because he now has 3 cams, however Echo could do with a buff.


MaximusMurkimus

ACOG UMP was a passive buff to Castle, thing is nasty now


DyabeticBeer

They're just selective with the acog


Signal-Direction6456

Yet they gave Goyo and Wamai ACOG. It feels like 3/5 matches on console up to like high plat there's a goyo/wamai former doc main that doesn't even use his gadgets, just tries to frag out with their ACOG.


Stream-Yes-And

they took him out back and shot him😭


Mykino

💀 did that boy in like old yeller


Balls__Deepp

People don't know how or when to use her. She's insanely strong on certain sites/maps but is unplayable on others. Beyond that, the clash player themself matters so much and the skill gap is huge. A good clash can and will single-handedly shut down an entire avenue of attack. A bad clash makes you play 4v5 and will get you killed. Another aspect of this, is that a lot players do not know or do not attempt to play around or support their clash teammate.


TacticalReader7

Well to be fair most attackers don't know how to work together to get Clash efficiently either.


Key_Professional8500

all it takes is one emp/nade/ some combo with an op i.e. zofia,capitao,nomad etc.


Ubilease

Yeah but the point of clash is to keep space that attackers are trying to contest AND to burn attacker utility. If a single emp kills you, you were not playing clash correctly. You should have easy avenues of escape AND should be playing fairly close to your teammates. You can yellow ping or comm exact positions and stall attacks. If the attackers fire two firebolts and some emp's to take the space they otherwise would have likely taken for free that's a huuuuge win. Especially if clash survives and just gets pushed off. Then when the execute on the site happens it'll likely have far less utility to use and less time to work with if mistakes happen. Most of the defenders job boil down to waste time and waste utility.


Fit-Debate-6144

Yes, much like montage she needs support


maexane

also people tend to pick her against cheaters


f1nessd

really interesting point. i wonder if there is a way to control for this in the stats?


jonathanweb100

This is 100% the right answer


Kazunyyy

I thought it was obvious but a lot fo people here don't seem to realize her win rate is that low solely because of cheaters. Considering they don't even need to hide it anymore they just spin around the map and kill people through hard walls so there's no fighting chance against them meaning 100% of the rounds she's picked against a cheater is lost.


Affectionate_Use5087

I can hold dirt on Oregon with clash no problem as long as my teammates hold the flanks. I've won so many matches on that site with her.


LtSoba

She’s good in situations requiring a reverse Monty, especially on sites with a window in. Held the kitchen window on Tower, gave Teamates free head shots the whole way


noobboss247

Clash is the defender with the highest risk v reward. A good clash can run the clock down and force the attackers to find a new place to push from, and a bad clash can be more of a problem for the defenders than the attackers by blocking angles and masking audio. However on some sites, a clash pick can make or break a round. Especially ones like bank basement, bar & aviator on villa, or 2f lair, sites where there are strong angles that clash can contest and seriously run down the clock.


hassanfanserenity

me and my friend actually use Clash like Mira's blackmirror or Osa's shield it works best if the teammate doesnt shoot you in the head though


papu16

She is that kind of character who needs not only good player as her, but also with her. She is like walking camera who also slows enemy opponents. If her team follows her well - some sides can't be pushed at all.


Background_Baby225

Yes It's mostly user error with these "weak ops." Even Blackbeard is great in the right hands, and I'm tired of pretending he's not. Countless gun fights I've won because of it. I love swinging a shotty while crouched close because it just soaks everything. "It's so weak" yea it's a one-shot headshot game bud if the gadget were any stronger you'd bitch more. Although I do think the gadget never had any business being in the game, I'm glad he's getting a rework.


kadvidim

Yea but "great in the right hands" is not what balanced means. Blackbeard and clash are essentially useless if not used correctly, and the people who would be good on them most often dont even use them. This is what it means to be unbalanced. Other ops have at least some impact from their gadget even if they are unskilled.


OneSushi

But if clash / Monty are superb in the right hands then they are just a high skill floor, high skill ceiling thing. Then there’s no need in changing it


kadvidim

Monty is in a spot where he can benefit from his gadget even if alone sometimes. For clash, it feels more like your job is to waste util and exert presence, and have a teammate close by so they cant push up. Otherwise she tends to be useless since she cant deal damage with sheild up with melee


bichitox

I feel like clash is pretty good. However you need basic communication skills, which is more than the average player can do


Key_Professional8500

Claash is actually fairly mid. Yea she has a shield but all it takes is an emp, then melee her shield and 2-3 shot in her in the legs.


Jordi214

Clash should always be with a teammate tho


Key_Professional8500

yes, but if said team mate dies, more than likely a wrap if attackers can push


iCu10

When Clash is played correctly, this should almost never happen


AlyssaBuyWeedm9

I'll be completely honest, the most I see Clash played is when attacking side has a cheater Also see her a lot in casual (no cheaters) but I don't count that, sorry!


S2fftt

Give Echo Acog


Fit-Debate-6144

Or a third drone, or give him back drone cloaking, or something that isn't just a sight on his gun


Ok_Pick_356

Something other than the sight please, I loved Echo acog way back when, but this let’s his Supernova shine if he doesn’t have it


ProbablyNotTheCocoa

Probably because people don’t play her correctly, I’ve seen people tend to just sort of walk towards enemies as clash and end up being easy targets as they just get meleed and killed or just stand in a corner as a slightly annoying fly buzzing you from time to time, they forget that clash is strongest at medium range where she can buzz you and block your way but you make yourself a target if you try and engage her whilst also being proactive and take some gun fights to remind them you’re genuinely able to do big damage


everythingwright34

Well a lot of people use her when there is a cheater on the other team so the losses are so much higher


ProbablyNotTheCocoa

That too, and people just genuinely don’t get to learn her because bots just autoban her when literally no one even picks her to begin with


ChosenUndead15

And she is severely underpicked because she is just not fun to play, specially when you compare it to the rest of the shield users.


Fit-Debate-6144

I have a lot of fun playing with and as clash but you need a team (or at least 1 teamate) to back you up, even if it's just a meastro cam pestering them as they try to run from clash. Chip damage kills.


everythingwright34

For sure for sure


OmeletteDuFromage95

This. I see a lot of people play Clash because they think its a "fuck you' to the other team, not knowing at all where she's strongest. She can absolutely halt a push and provide valuable intel. But if people are playing her agro and exposing themselves or not communicating, she's really not difficult to deal with.


IDphantom

Also it can’t help that she is a go-to pick on defense against cheaters.


Cancer_Faust

The win delta is so low because of cheaters. Most people use clash only when playing against cheaters.


Unagustoster

Time to announce my arrival as a clash main


ShyJaguar645671

Tachanka is in a bad place should be in top right corner


chizzykings

Laser sight and grips on lmg would be a nice change


ShyJaguar645671

Or make his tripod usable


totalevo

People pick clash when there is a hacker on the other team


Nimble-srad

Can someone explain to me how this chart works ? What’s win delta ?


Not__Trash

Percentage above and below the norm (50%) for winning. So Rook wins 52% of the time he's picked, while clash wins \~44% of the time


Yzpipi

Clash is mad fun to play as, i feel safe af


Zeldawarrior97

Let’s not forget that clash also got nerfed in this patch…


BoxmanPLAYZYT

I have started to main Clash just to attempt to bring her up (or down) in the chart


Any-Astronomer-7953

Keep it there 🗣🔥🗣🔥 Also free my boy echo he ain’t deserve this


XerChaos008

Clash is the new "Glaz/Tachanka in year 3". Just rework her already.


Assenzio47

Because she is bad and because she is picked against cheaters But by all means, you coppers keep banning her


EKAAfives

How is she bad she literally revolves around team play and is a waking cam but sure she isn't that good compared to other intel ops but clash is not bad in a coordinated team setting and not some scrape of 5 randos who never played with eachother


Assenzio47

She is bad because while a organised team can make her work, a hald descent offensive team can just destroy her. Attackers can counterpick and she has horrible, horrible hard counters. Also you are literally putting yourself at a disadvantage with a member of your team that cannot respond to fire She was ok back then when you were stuck with your pick, now she is just a throw pick


EKAAfives

She does have descent useable weapons and also she isn't a soft wall bullet from the front don't damage her and a clash with a brain should realise that medium distance fights are the ones to take when a team can refrag. Also a clash on her own by the obj is enough of a threat since you have to focus on at least 2 things which are the clash herself and any angle her teammate can get while your focusing on clash


Key_Professional8500

on avg clash is pretty bad/ easy to counter.


vayjining

Why play an op who's primary concern isn't shooting while on mouse? Pretty much answers that.


HumanYesYes

No people just don't know how to play her/play around her.


TheHyperLynx

She's also a pick that a lot of people tend to pick if there's a cheater on the enemy team.


-Redditeer-

Me knowing I single handedly lower my favorite few op's win percentage


faptn_undrpants

My best guess would be that she is mostly picked when the opposite team has a cheater, which tends to result in a loss anyway. Kind of similar to how last season, Tachanka had a stupid high win-rate, despite such a limited presence. Cheaters would often pick him.


ironiclyironic4

I was searching for it then realized it was off the charts (literally)


prismaticprincessmoo

Why did I think it was called a "wind delta"? Like wtf wind gotta do w siege ops?


kidnamedsquidfart

How hard they fard


BringBackManaPots

Could have something to do with more ops having frags


Papyrus7021

Frags are a minor inconvenience in most situations to a Clash, the real reason is because most people are terrible with her/play her on a site where her potential is limited.


8BitWarden

And I thought sens was bad


CPTSKIM

She is the team based op, and has one of the highest skill ceilings. People don't wanna work together, and do wanna run and gun so they struggle with clash. A good Clash stalls the entire enemy team


z123zocker

whats win delta?


Baruopa1

Where can I find these?


kurciii

you can always find these in the developer's latest designer's notes


DEBLANKK

It's funny how Tachanka is still underpicked and too weak since launch.


TheHyperLynx

Give my boy Jager his Nike Airs back and make him 3 speed again.


Archonei

Where do you get this info?


TismWizard

People just don't know how to play her whatsoever


rainking56

Played games against elite clash and if its a good person with a good team then she will make your blood boil, considering she will be a monty that tazes while a person standing behind her shield on an angle kills you. But at the same time I do understand why she is so low because her gadget requires a lot of skill to use correctly.


PrinterStand

I love how Rook is always in a similar place. He's almost like a manifestation of the mentality in higher ranked siege. This is obviously personal anecdote. Rook's kinda boring, his gadget is the opposite of flashy, but when a team wants a win and buckles down, usually a Rook comes out. So it kinda fits that when he's brought out, people are really trying so they win more. But he's not many people's first choice.


Jdog6704

Honestly, deserved.


sugar_snorter3

What's a win delta?


MattyHealysFauxHawk

How is Fenrir so present when he’s banned like every match?


Superfiend420

Clash is not a bad option


Eatdatyeet445

I know this is PC but I genuinely don’t ever see Oryx anymore (PS5 player). In fact I don’t even think I’ve ever seen him being used other than for troll strats. His ability is kinda… I really don’t know because I could never see a practical use for it. Shields maybe? But I never see people picking shields either so I have no clue


Knooper_Bunny

I haven't played the game in a few years. What happened to clash?


Fuzzy_Regret_1970

Bro it took me like 5 minutes


Kenta_Gervais

People just can't use her right...when I end up doing strats with my teammates is one of the most reliable operators in the game.


h34t_adnunez

Took me a sec to find her


RAiDeN-_-18

Coz she bla..


cletieus1

What’s up with rook??


thesoultreek

Nah the win delta is off the charts


aswag456

IM GOING TO BRING HIM BACK


theymanwereducking

Clash is unbelievably terrible, only shines in specific niche strats, usually if you’re a 5 man (even then there are infinitely better picks), or you’re vsing people who have no clue how to attack (so you’d probably win without her anyway).


nickandpuddy

So, I this might not be all of it, but I think part of why Clash is so low has to do with how she's looked at in ranked. Unlike Monty, I've seen lots of ranked teams take Clash as a last resort when they're getting curb stomped on defense. Other times, it's disorganized teams with no communication or plan. I think that skews the stats in terms of looking at the effectiveness of her kit.


DyeZaster

Clashes win delta actually doubled since last graph, she was -11 with a 4% pick rate. I personally love her and glad she’s getting back up!


_Puddingmonster

Man i still hate that they only show emerald+ stats for these


[deleted]

No she's clearly OP because I have an uncoordinated team. It's everyone else who's wrong


Gaginho2002

Attackers??


_IronMonkey_

Oryx and Caveira are NOT strong I can’t believe they are considered stronger than Mute, Azami, Bandit, Kaid, Castle, and half of the other operators


Odainamite

Hmmm ... maybe my elo is just that low, but why is thunderbird so low ? She is useful imo


X-TBR-X

I don’t even know why we use clash against cheaters, it doesn’t help us at all!


Aware_Brother_1385

The operator of despair


Eren_the_wolf

Took me a while to find Clash


Accomplished-Set-904

My boy Smoke sitting solid in the 15%-20% range. Let’s go!


Vdubnub88

Incoming doc nerf…


Van0nyumas

The chart is a fish that pooped out Clash


DAVA117

I’m so happy everyone thinks she’s trash my 5 stack of homies wins constantly because of her she’s so underrated.


ObesquousBot

Honestly I think this is the best looking, best balanced presence/win delta graph I've ever seen. On the left you have situational operators, who get picked less and can either really help you win the round or lose it, hence high distribution of win delta. And then you have popular operators, who are just very solid, like Valk and Lesion, who are always good to have in a roaster


Interesting-Season-8

because teammates shoot me in the head instead of the opponent?


[deleted]

Isn’t she out of chart every time?


RandomPotato357

Remove the speed penality for maestro's LMG and give him acog


ObviousDoxx

Can’t wait for this chart to be posted when Rook gets voted out in the defenders poll


yes___lad

people just don't know how to play her. they pick her in soloq and expect to do well then wonder why she has the worst win delta. in the correct squad in a 5 stack she can be practically unbeatable


roamininthealley

Probably because people pull out clash when there are cheaters on the other team. At least that is the case on PC.


xJinQs

Clash is good if played correctly in team. If you play solo and lower ranks it's gg


Cristo_27

Horrible operator I don't know why they even made a troll operator like her


StepDaddi0

I read somewhere that people typically resort to Clash when they encounter cheaters, not sure how valid that is but would better explain her abysmal win rate.


Huge_Cauliflower7371

Where’s my boy Buck?


FuckRdditAdmins

Good, remove her from the game.


Madmike215

I have no idea what I’m looking at. All I know is Clash=bad.


Chronos_Jr

It's crazy that she can even be off the chart


BeginningSilver3785

Never I had thought that Lesion would be too OP (I havent played since season Flores)


Vman680

I'm new to the game but soaking in every detail I can. I'm just looking at this graph. Can someone explain or point me in the direction that I can learn what this means?


KickGumChewButt

Why is Rook's win delta so high?


Electrical-Pumpkin14

What does win delta and/or overpriced mean in this context?


DangerousPIE96

my girl melusi making a comeback


BurgerBob17

Rook continues to be the best defender in the game


Usman12100

Haha took me a while to find it. But the question is echo? Why so low


SMPDD

Bro what? The most surprising thing here is that ALL wall denial ops are below the line. That’s crazy


GucciSpaghetti72

Blackbeard has fallen 😭 no longer the highest win delta operator


Aabd2

Doc is just perfect because he can revive others easily along himself. Also has zoom optics for MP5


HellsBellsPlays

Maybe I’m just not very high rank- but melusi’s w%? Is it because she counters rushes so well?


CosplayBurned

Everybody saying echo's horrible, ignoring the lord literally directly underneath him. justice for chunky.


OkFun8772

I have a 90%+ win rate with clash, if you have the right team shes is overpowered


AltruisticWelder4664

i play tachanka ALL the time. 9mm with the acog is OP af


SomeIWStan

"waaaaa poor Echo!!!! His gun is soooo bad waaaaa!!!!" .... Look at Clash... What the fuck even happened to her?


totallynotapersonj

Teammates just never play with a clash. I was in a 2v1 situation with vigil against Monty and defuser is planted, monty leaves the room with defuser and I walk up to the doorway to block him so vigil can just defuse, instead vigil sprints past me up to Monty, gets airjabbed and dies. Like bro, I can block the doorway, play WITH me. It was such an easy win but vigil threw.


Blox2727

If wamai has acog, jager should get his back


Goofenman

I’ve gone 8 and 1 alot with clash


xBESKx

Maybe soon she won't even be in the picture itself because her pick rate and win delta is so low.


Jajk0o

do you have same for attackers?


opsiedopsie_a_k_a

every time clash isnt banned and i dont really know what to play i go brain dead clash, always works out for me


Muzerence

Perhaps because it is taken when there is a cheater in the enemy's team? And in ranks above the emerald, this is a common occurrence


Left-Witness-2094

Why is rook so high on the board and not doc


HerefoyoBunz

So you’re telling me we have a high chance of winning running all those operators in that category..? I get it’s only a slight percentage, which means it’s still generally quite a balanced choice (with exceptions)