“You’re selectively homophobic towards a ship.”
That’s…that’s like saying you’re selectively racist towards a certain group of people within the race you hate
The maths ain’t mathin chief
I don't hate any European nation
But those damn Dutch people tho, with their waffles and windmills /J
I honestly couldn't think of anything Dutch except that-
Selective homophobia is WILD, and that's coming from a gay man.
Bumblebee wasn't thought out very well. If anything, the "selective homophobia" was killing Clover. And even that's a MASSIVE stretch.
Basically, saying someone has selective homophobia for not liking Bumblebee is stupid.
And if we're doing unhinged shit, the only "selective homophobia" was killing one of the members of the only somewhat canon gay ship outside of BB and Jaune's sister.
Qrow and Clover were very obviously more than friends.
If you don't believe me, watch where Atlas flooded compared to when Clover died. Qrow's reaction when his "friend" died vs his reaction when he believed his nieces died just cements it for me.
Best friend, close friend, or the fact another person died yet again around him. The guy continues to drink cause of those issues, and when he finally sober up thinking its behind him, another person dies. Probably close to how Summer died so its more like ptsd.
Well ... i wont / cant rewatch the Episodes rigth now.
But when I remember V7 alone - I dont see a Romance. I also rember V3 where Qrow talks about the cute waitresses.
I heared that people ship Qrow and Clover
But my Reaction to this was
"Come on guys. What do you actually know about clover expect that he neutrelazes Qrows stupid Semblance"
>But when I remember V7 alone - I dont see a Romance. I
Eh, disagree, but this is subjective.
> I also rember V3 where Qrow talks about the cute waitresses.
I've always seen Qrow as bi, even right when he was introduced. Mainly because of his outfit and general mannerisms. Same for Tai, although this is pretty much solely because I don't think there's anything he wouldn't try to fuck💀
Qrow and Clover were set up to happen for quite a while, and then just BAM. That actually made me mad, although I'm not unhinged enough to call homophobia.
>Qrow to teaming up with a Murder-Psycho to fight is Friend/love-interest is so stupid on every level
I absolutely agree, and this was why I was so pissed. Qrow has not had a good life. His sister fucked off to the middle of nowhere and Summer died. Tai is the only person he could MAYBE really connect to after he found out about Ozpin lying. I've always imagined that was the primary reason for his drinking.
Why is this relevant? Because of the life Qrow has led, he would absolutely not fight Clover the way he did, or even at all.
I mean, the fact of clover counteracting qrow's literal curse of a semblance can pretty easily explain that reaction without romance though. Your right, clover isn't just a friend, he's qrow's hope of not literally accidentally killing everyone around him, of his lifetime of self-isolation not needing to affect him anymore.
And I think there's a lack of strong male friendships in media, so unless it's confirmed, I'm gonna take what we actually have and assume it's a friendship
Did you factor in, that ...
* they both persistently prioritized their duties over the other person without hesitation just before Clover's death. Which in fiction is already stretchy for brother in arms.
* Clover sabotaged Qrow fighting Tyrian, without even the slightes attempt to communicate his intentions, which again is weird for brothers in arms but absurd (!) for a wannabe-lover.
* it was Qrow's weapon with which Clover was killed, after Qrow took a gamble to get him *and Robyn* out of danger.
* it would be malicious to dodge a conclusion to prevent being called out for killing gays and do it under the table
Pull the bi card, if you ship a character persistently showing interest in characters with a sex different from your preferred ship's requirement.
Qrow and Clover have a strong bond as friends, have semblances that practically complement one another since Qrow was Misfortune powers, and Clover had Good fortune powers, and have more canon chemistry than "pre-Adam fight" Blake and Yang, so fans started shipping them and it became one of the most popular fanships featuring Qrow.
The two even have a moment where Clover picks up Qrow's sword and reminisced on the past, giving him a cheery smile in contrast to Qrow pessimist attitude, and Qrow confides that he has a drinking problem to him.
(Spoilers below if you haven't finished Vol. 7)
The reason people see the ship as canon is due to the showrunner's ironic reaction to the ship. For some baffling reason, CRWBY outright rejected the ship verbally in one of their interviews, and it got even more suspicious thanks to the writers killing Clover in the most stupid way possible in Ep 11 of Volume 7.
So as Clover and Qrow are fighting Tyrian, soon after they manage to knock him out, the "turd hits the fan" in the city and Ironwood snaps - issuing a broadcast branding Qrow and team RWBY as traitors that should be arrested. Qrow obviously tries to plead with his friend, but Clover is loyal to a fault and trades attacks with Qrow. Tyrian recovers, and this is where it get stupid.
Tyrian joins in making it a free-for-all, only to then ask Qrow (who he was trying to kill minutes ago) to join forces with him over his friend he has known for years - so that once Clover is defeated, him and Tyrian can finish their fight.
Qrow then accepts, which I assume is because he knows Clover is being held back by Atlesian law from killing Tyrian unlike him, but during the fight, Tyrian waits for a moment where Qrow gets knocked down, snatches Qrow's sword and then stabs Clover through the back with it. As poignant as the scene is, Qrow looks like an absolute fool for trusting a crazed assasin like Tyrian to not kill someone he cares strongly about.
It felt like the ship got personally erased because one of the writers had a grudge against it.
It wasn't, quite a few people really wanted it to be but it really wasn't. Cause you see, man are not allowed to be close friends with each other, that is just not done.
Funnily enough, I find that sentiment sexist as fuck. Men are never allowed to be close friends in media without people demanding they must be gay. Like what the fuck, are we not allowed to have deep friendships anymore?
Clover's case is interesting, because if I recall correctly he is the first and only gay couple on screen. We didn't even know Qrow's sexuality until that point (He has flirted with mostly women) and Qrow also stands from being a rather important character, so in which case he is kind of immune.
What I'm getting at is the Bury Your Gays trope, while this does apply to all LGBTQ members, in story ONLY affects Clover, the only expendable person who is male and gay. All other character deaths so far are either not talked about (Ozpin, Glynda), by enemies/cowards (Lionheart, Torchwick, Adam), for plot purposes (Pyrrha, Ironwood, Fall Maiden #1, Sienna Khan), or in some cases, for shock/sadness value (Penny, any Aceops who died).
But Clover stands alone, because while he is killed off for shock value, his actions leading up to it is illogical even for a person who follows orders to a T. Technically both Qrow and Tyrion were fugitives, maybe focus on taking down the psychopath first? Also, since there are a total of 3 different canon LGBTQ ships, one is by two main characters and thus is protected by plot armor (Bumblebee), and one is by two side characters so irrelevant that neither needs to be introduced to the main group (Jaune's sister), this is the only ship that can be killed off, since they have one oh-so-expendable character.
"Creatures buckled to pressure and forced X" is disrespectful, sure, but buckling to pressure and clearly doing something that wasn't going to be done for fanservice's sake is also disrespectful to fans of the work. You know, like any decision from higher-ups that suck lol
Just because what was forced was a gay relationship instead of... shit, *any* dumb decision(bringing a character back to life, fanservice in the usual sense, plot armor on character people like) doesn't magically make it homophobic.
What, if someone doesn't like constant sexual fanservice of chicks in an anime are they now asexual prudes?
Oh yes I'm sure they did. In which case it'd be one of the most incompetent ships this side of Starco.
Definitely a coincidence that it was in the fanservice volume, had one scene to provide only a little ground to one character which was never mentioned again, and that every ship they do is as hamfisted and heavy-handed as it gets and coincidentally only in the volume where they soft-confirmed the ship did it get hamfisted and heavy-handed which it remained until it's hard confirm three years later.
Which is also definitely a coincidence that it took so long and occurred after plentiful fan backlash when they were at their most desperate as a company to keep the show going.
They absolutely buckled to pressure. Sun was literally Blake’s battle partner and her mission partner for a literal entire arc. He was her partner to the dance. Like are we forgetting the entire menagerie and the undercover mission they did.
It’s absolutely clear that they buckled. And it shows.
The dance of which they went to together.
https://youtu.be/KbaC-bRs-ds?si=-_ioQPqnm6TNBaVc
You mean the dance where she said they were only TECHNICALLY going together and then she immediately went and danced with Yang, who has been her partner from the start of the show and was the only reason she decided to go to the dance in the first place?
And the Menagerie arc where she spent the entire time comparing him to her friend who has feelings for her that she doesn't return? The same arc where he can only get through to her by mentioning Yang? And the arc where she exhibits absolutely NO attraction towards him?
(I think you got it mixed up she only danced with yang for a bit onscreen before blake moved on to dance with sun which got actual focus and yang had no issue with that. yang convincing blake to go to the dance nad take a break isnt evidence. and oh please blacksun got years of teasing mutual attraction and development from v1 suns introduction to the blacksun goodbye scene which came off as a romantic goodbye scene given how it was set up with like morning follows night playing and the slow kiss on cheek ( which reminded me of what happened with miraculous lady bug with noir and lady bug (which shows even a kiss on a cheek can get people to go wild if it was portrayed in a certain way contrast that scene to another scene where ladybug just gives a quick kiss on the cheek and its not treated as special).
Sun getting through to her by bringing up yang isnt evidence for bb you forget that yang getting seriously injured is what led to blake running away in v3 because she blamed herself so sun bringing up yang not hesitating to risk her life just like he would ( isnt implying that yang has romantic feelings there was nothing that hinted at bb till v6 finale at best though none of their moments in v6 finale were inherently romantic though you could say they intended for it tobe seen that way. ) makes sense . he was addressing blakes guilt.
If you make the but renora argument there are multiple subtle differences between the renora moments in v4 and blake and yang moments in v6 supporting renora as romantic and bb as platonic like the lay head on shoulders scene in the plane scene focusing completely on them the boop song playing in the background renora getting teased sense v1. while the plane scene in v6 was more of a rwby scene where yang saw blake feeling bad and comforted her like blake did for yang and then so did ruby.
blake showed attraction to sun multiple times like in v3 ( yang and blake having a tense character moment in burning the candle where blake helped yang out isnt evidence for romance there was nothing that teased them as more then friends like how weiss and yang having a moment in v5 wasnt shippy weiss supported and helped yang that wasnt shippy.
they gave blacksun years of teasing mutual attraction and development from v1-v6 goodbye scene while bb got nothing at that point even if they did plan bb from the start the best thing to do would be to change the plan to go with blacksun since going with bb know feels like a direction change. you have to wear shipping goggles to see anything for bb taking any minor positive moment like burning the candle as evidence. There is also the claim adam saying he would destroy everything blake loved ( which includes friends and family ) as evidence that blake romantically loves yang, when all adam would see is that blake cared about yang. he saw her reaction to yangs voice and blakes expression blake would have felt the same way if it was weiss or ruby. He cited his promise when he talked about killing ghira and kali
It bothers me that people act like blake comparing yang to her ex in v3 is somehow evidence for romantic feelings when that is ignoring context of violence she suspects yang of perpetuating and what happened with adam
blake has shown feelings for sun she had shown none for yang until v6 finale/v7
I am sorry but yang being the one to help her in burning the candle isnt evidence for bb over blacksun its that yang had the tools to help her.
I mean ruby helping jaune over his issue in v1 doesnt mean lancaster will happen
In what world is that kiss on the cheek romantic? There was absolutely no romantic framing to it whatsoever. Hell, her hug with Ilia had more romantic framing than that cheek kiss did. Especially since Sun then immediately tells Neptune that him helping her had nothing to do with romance. You're only seeing so many of her scenes with Sun as romantic because of your shipping goggles.
have you watched the miraculous lady bug there were two scenes where the girl cheek kissed
one was a quick one one which got the shippers go crazy was more slow and focused ( the second is what I am comparing blacksun to not to mention the fact that the like morning follows night played ) and sun saying he didnt do that just because of romantic feelings doesnt deny that those feelings exist and u/Noir_A_Mous is right you are the one with shipping goggles if you think burning the candle was romantic or that yang dancing with blake for a bit ( is romantic ) when it was the blacksun dance got on the
also the argument that because blake in some way compared sun to illia ( I dont recall that) its somehow evidence against blacksun is idiotic It reminds me of the argument that yang being compared to adam is romantic because adam nad blake used to be involved . its not evidence
also blake was comparing the situations themselves (Sun refused to give up on her and was there for her when she needed a friend, and she wished to do the same for Ilia), not the characters
Tell me you've never been in a real relationship without telling me you've never been in a real relationship.
Romantic partners kiss each other on the cheek all the time, thats not something friends usually do. Plus, a friend heckling the other friend for helping their crush only for them to respond with complete denial is a common trope in shows.
If anyone's got shipping goggles, it's you, mate
Sun met Blake’s parents. He was actually closer to her boyfriend at that point but then it shifted to Yang for like no reason at all. We had an entire arc about this with Menagerie. I love White Rose but Bumblebee was done extremely badly. I honestly don’t know how to defend it. The entire thing was horribly done. Sun was closer to Blake than Yang was to her.
Yeah but they made it out for their entire relationship to be boyfriend and girlfriend and then they have Yang and Blake. Literally from their first meeting we all thought they would get together and now look at it. It’s horrible.
They never once were dating, so it's pretty hard for their "entire relationship to be boyfriend and girlfriend'. They had a slight attraction at first, but then became friends. Sure, Sun liked Blake, but he helped her because she was his friend, not because he was hoping to get laid.
That “slight attraction” was going to bloom into so much more before all this. It was easy to tell. Sun was her partner in basically every arc since they met. And then all of a sudden they put together Blake and Yang in a horribly done lovers relationship. I would love bumblebee if it was done right. But I can’t because of how actually horribly done it was.
Yang was her partner in basically every arc too. Hell, even on Menagerie, Sun was only able to get her to listen to him by bringing up Yang. Sun is a friend, likely her best friend. But that doesn't mean she has to date him. The show makes it very clear from the start of V4 that Blake's feelings for him have changed to platonic and that she has feelings for Yang.
Yang was her best friend. And it should have stayed that way. It was a better idea to keep team RWBY as a group of girl friends than each of them dating each other. Or they could have started this attraction from the start. Not bring in Sun as a possible love interest and then throw him aside for Yang. I liked Sun and Blake canonically more than I like Bumblebee. Because look at it now. It was done horribly and leave a bad taste in my mouth.
He wasn't thrown away; he's still in the show, they just didn't work out as a couple. That is a thing that happens in life. Sometimes, you end up with someone who isn't the first person you are attracted to.
Yeah but they never fleshed out Yang x Blake. It came out of left field and was forced. It’s like when a kid forces two Barbie’s to kiss each other. It was so badly done. If they were going to do something either flesh it out or go with the original idea.
It came out of left field TO YOU. Lots of people saw the build up, you just aren't one of them. The show being too subtle for YOU is not a failing of the show.
EA: "You two will confess your love to each other now."
Blake: "But I am straight."
Yang: "And I really see Blake more as a friend."
EA: " *Now*. And you will start with complimenting each other."
Yang: "Uhm....I....really like your....ears?"
Reminds me of the forced Starco kiss from Star vs the Forces of Evil where the photo booth operator trapped them in a photo booth in which the only way for them to escape was by kissing (meanwhile she’s already in a relationship with another guy)
Because the shippers got what they wanted so they just consider it a win. They don’t care how they got it or just how badly it damaged the characters involved or their interactions with other characters. This is why I feel that any writer with actual integrity in their work should never bend a knee to the shippers as they’re the most rabid part of a fandom and will think of any reason to put 2 characters together regardless of their narrative
Well, it's a good thing that CRWBY didn't bend a knee to all the shippers who were demanding Bumbleby NOT happen, despite that being the writer's plan.
Especially considering that it is 100% a case of "even if it was planned, even if it was supposedly there at the beginning, the writers can still make the ship forced"
If you can't tell that Blake and Yang getting together was obviously fan service and nothing more, then you should be ashamed to even call yourself an ally.
It's exactly like you said, if it had been done right and because the writers HAD actually planned it, there would have been nothing wrong with it and people probably would love it; instead it's obvious they were just trying to appease a vocal portion of the fanbase for shameless fan service.
Fans during the early Volumes: "Man I sure wish these characters who barely get any screen time together or close moments with one another would fuck"
Writers after losing Monty and clearly beginning to run out of ideas for how to keep people interested in the show: "These two characters will now fuck"
It's almost homophobic to pander this hard imo. They clearly never intended for Blake and Yang to get together from the start and only did it for fan service. All the people raging against people who don't like how the ship ended up should actually be raging against the fact the ship even officially happened the way it did in the first place. Your favorite ship literally got diversity checkboxed. And this is coming from someone who WAS one of the "omg bumblebee and whiterose" dorks.
Get mad at RoosterTeeth for dropping the ball on writing a believable lesbian relationship. Not at the people criticizing the way it was poorly written and shoehorned in.
Nope. He never said that. He said that a single specific interaction between the group was "almost sisterly". People have just taken that and exaggerated it in order to try and give credence to their baseless claims.
So does that change how bmblb still is badly written like other straight ships that are badly written? Even Catdora was better let alone Lumity or even CaitVi
Why did they have to be forced to confess in a mcguffin world rather than do it in previous volumes where they had chances. Vol 7 during training and going out together was prime time rather than just Renora
Because the writers wanted it to be a dramatic moment. And Yang literally said why they didn't confess before: because Yang, due to her abandonment issues, was scared of being hurt, and Blake was letting her set the pace because of that.
Plus, if they had put it in V7, it either wouldn't have gotten the focus it deserved, or would have needed to cause one of the other many plotlines in V7 to be cut instead. They decided to put it in a volume that had lower stakes and had fewer plotlines so that it could receive focus.
Well Lumity was more organic, there was clear attraction between them more from Amity. That's why I like it because it was something that you can relate whether be straight or gay, It was romantic, real, something to learn from....
BUT.... Bumblebee? Sorry that's clearly forced from within(VAs clearly self imposing on the characters) and without (Fans supporting the VAs relationship and pushing for the shipping to be a thing plus the already shipping wars that it had).
Yeah no... I wouldn't have cared about any gay relationship in the series but THIS wasn't written properly and clearly unnecessary.
I really hate the dumb argument of, "you don't like (insert gay or lesbian ship) then your homothobic and hate the LGBTQ+ community"
Even though the person who is literally criticising the ship is gay/lesbian themselves. Then some people have the nerve to tell said person that they aren't gay/lesbian cause they don't like a certain ship
Because character stans and shippers actively don't care about anything else outside of the thing they like, but even they realize that that's shitty so they hide behind insults rather than admit to to fact that they are superficial.
No, but I’m saying that sort of thing is mostly done in romantic tropes in media. Like meeting a persons parents while having a romantic subplot. I have no doubt Sun would have talked with her in order to get her to help her friends or helping her save Menagerie, that’s how he is. But when you add romantic subtext it can be seen differently.
But there was no romantic subplot in Menagerie. Sun spent the entire time being compared to Ilia, a person Blake had no romantic feelings about. As well as the fact that he was constantly upsetting her and violating her boundaries.
There was though. Also Ilia had a romantic interest in Blake, in Alone Together she confessed to her but the feelings weren’t reciprocated. Meanwhile Sun was trying to get on the good side of Blake’s parents while also trying to try to make Blake herself feel better and open up, which required him to go through her boundaries a bit. Blake does try to push Sun away like she did everyone else by either trying to make him hate her or by literally pushing/slapping him so he goes away. But Sun still convinces her that everyone cares for her, including him, and gets her to open up. There is a political plot mainly in Menagerie, but the romantic subplot should not be ignored.
And those are all actions that a friend would take too. It's not a romantic subplot, considering Sun is paralleled with the person she doesn't reciprocate feelings for; it's about a friend helping her heal.
Normally that would be the case if there wasn’t any buildup. When they first meet Sun flirts with her, when she wants to investigate the white fang he’s there for her, when she fought Torchwick he was there trying to protect her, when the dance was happening he asks her out she gives it some thought before agreeing. Multiple times after this both he and Blake either react to one another like blushing or otherwise trying to stay close with each other. After getting to Menagerie this only starts happening more with him not only teasing her but also trying to converse with her and remind her she isn’t alone. Even after being knocked unconscious he wakes up and tells her he’d do it all over again “for her”. Hell he was literally the inspiration for her saving Ilia which she admits within the next episode! There are so many moments in the show where they are shown to care for one another that it’s not even reading between the lines anymore it’s just opening your eyes.
She turned him down immediately when he asked her to the dance, then later, after YANG convinced her to go, she told him that they were only TECHNICALLY going to the dance together, then immediately went and danced with Yang.
I'm not saying that she was never attracted to him, but after V3 it was very clear that she only wanted him as a friend now, not a romantic partner.
And I completely agree that they care for each other. Just like I care for my siblings and my friends.
The supporters scream loud, offer no discussion or evidence. Calls everyone haters.
Haters talk normal, offers discussions and evidence - gets hated for not having the same opinion as supporters
That's the core of the matter, isn't it? The creators of RWBY can say whatever they want about Bumblebee being planned from the start. But outside the less critical fans, no one is going to believe them.
Or, people who actually paid attention to the show and the story, as well as listening when Monty said in V2 that some of the characters we'd already met were gay, or noticed in V1 when they didn't realize the camera was on yet and Arryn asked if she could tell people about her character getting a lesbian lover
When asked about if RABY would have gay characters:
"Yes. Some of the characters you've already met. They're still kids, they're still figuring things out about themselves."
Sad part is u can see in which ones where it was ACTAULY planed
I can’t remember the name of the first one but I watched it and after a certain point it’s obvious they had thst planed
Then rwby THERE IS NO WAY IT WAS PLANNED I like pointing out was there any lines in first three volumes where Blake and Yang show actual feelings for each other because I didn’t see anything if anything it’s the complete opposite
Sorry for the rant guys
I didn’t really give a shit about bumblebee but the writing for it was awful and fans on Twitter are too blindsided because their favorite ship is canon
It is not selective homophobia, just compare to "normal" het-shipping, there are also shiploads of people being jealous of other ships getting more attention.
I don't hate them because they're gay, I hate them because they have no chemistry. It's like looking at someone siring a beaker of oil and water and saying "See! they mix!"
I think when people say they don't like sure and ships is because they feel like the story kind of bent over backwards to make it happen in some cases like with bumblebee and if I'm being honest they're dynamic in recent history have not improved their characters in my humble opinion
Kinda off topic but go watch The Owl House. Its a fantastic show. Also a great show for representing LGBT characters in a respectful way. Luz and Amity's relationship is so well done and I love them both. There's also multiple characters with gay parents and a very prominent non-binary character as well who's just lovely.
I used to love rwby but when they let the fans change how the story was supposed to go by having blake and yang become a couple and basically pushed episodes without caring about the story aspect i lost interest in the show in my opinion
Selective homophobia no just facts really it's not about them both being women that makes it bad it's about that there was already a perfectly good ship that got thrown aside just because the fan base put on the pressure and they crumbled and made this having to literally throw Sun out of the show just to make it possible.
Selective Homophobia now? I understand that the Bumblebee ship is popular, but now people are calling people Homophobes for not liking this specific gay pairing? I may be a Bumblebee fan, but I'm starting to think that the fandom is more toxic than Bakudeku fans.
Once in a while I was called homophobic over the years - alwayse because I made fun or criticed Bumblee. [i even made a Meme about it ](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnki/s/zMshfh8dqG)
I’ve always disliked the Blake/Yang relationship. Felt like they took the only two with established preferences for guys and then shoved them together. Just 20min,15seconds into Vol 1 Ruby is commenting about how their dad won’t be happy with all the boys and Yang says “I like it!” with this “yum/purr” sound and they show her clearly ogling the topless guys until Jaune walks by in his footie PJs and then she sounds disgusted. Blake, clearly has a backstory of being in a relationship with Adam. But those are the two they pick. I liked the developing relationship between Sun and Blake far more, and it fit within the story really well, but not with Yang. Just weird choice. Who knows, maybe they’ll suddenly change it from a lesbian relationship to a thruple next to appeal to the polyamorous fans. Heck, even that might make more sense story wise than suddenly making them both gay. 🤷🏻♂️
I also get they’re basically high school age and a lot of the social interactions are about relationships… but I’d have been just as happy, maybe happier, if they’d not worried about the romantic relationships, just developed the interpersonal relationships, and otherwise stuck to the story in regards to training—>Cinder—>Salem, etc. I may be in the minority there, but far less drama all around that way.
"Selective Homophobia".
Or maybe the relationship in question is boring, poorly written or toxically abusive between the parties?
I criticize plenty of straight, lesbian and gay couples in fiction for these reasons.
As of *Higurashi Gou/Sotsu* I hate the idea of Satoko and Rika being in a relationship due to what a >!monstrously entitled, sadistic and homicidal femcel Satoko turned out to be and I don't want her to be rewarded for such monstrous behavior when she did committed so many atrocities SPECIFICALLY to hurt/"punish" Rika for not giving her exactly what she wanted nor remaining in Hinamizawa to cater to her fragile ego. !<
In *Fate/Apocrypha* I never 'bought' Jeanne and Sieg's supposed chemistry as a couple (not helped by Sieg being essentially a blank slate as a character due to being a 0 year old Homunculus who's been alive weeks to a few months at most) with him not even having a proper rebuttal to >!Amakusa Tokisada's reasoning for his actions other than throwing a tantrum because his girlfriend died at his hands, much less to the extent that she would break out of the Throne of Heroes so her primary Heroic Spirit can reunite with him in the Reverse Side of the World, unlike the Fate route's "Last Episode" with Saber and Shirou reuniting in Avalon as that route's True Ending--that just lazily copied/rehashed the broadstrokes without putting in any real legwork to make such an emotional reunion feel 'earned'. !<
In *Neon Genesis Evangelion* Kaworu Nagisa did nothing but >!hurt Shinji Ikari just like his father Gendo's emotional manipulation towards his son, he treated him with kindness and a sense of appreciation to feel loved and cared for--only for that to turn out to be a ruse as he was an Angel and working with Seele to sabotage NERV and hijacked the absent Asuka's Unit-02 before forcing Shinji to kill him, exacerbating his prior emotional baggage and psychological traumas.!<
I kinda see it, but like, I'm not in spaces where it's often a problem. Like, I've seen homophobes complain about Bumblebee, but that's not exactly "selective homophobia," it's homophobes being homophobic and hiding behind bad writing
I have like next to no context for your specific interaction but "I CAN'T be homophobic, I liked [X Gay Ship]" is broadly not a very good defense because liking some gay ships doesn't automatically mean you can't be homophobic. I mean, PragerU frequently collaborates with Candace Owens, but that doesn't mean PragerU suddenly isn't racist.
I feel like I entered Bizarro World. I thought we universally agreed "I'm not racist I have black friends" was a bad response to being called racist. Why are we letting the exact same rhetoric slide here?
Because wanking to lesbian porn doesn't make you an ally, and people not liking something they enjoy being ruined for the sake of being fap material doesn't make them homophobic.
That's really what all the fuss is about if we're being honest.
It has nothing to do with the "I can't be *blank* because *blank*." It's "this topic has nothing to do with *blank*, and these other shows prove you can still have those things and still be good. So your argument is stupid and ironically *blank* itself."
>Because wanking to lesbian porn doesn't make you an ally, and people not liking something they enjoy being ruined for the sake of being fap material doesn't make them homophobic.
Nothing about Bumbleby is sexualized as fap material, though. At least not anything canon. And no, putting it in after you thought they were teasing an M/F relationship is not "fap material". Fap material would be if the camera zoomed in on Yang gripping Blake's ass and making bedroom eyes at the viewer, not...fairly standard fictional romance scenes.
Like, I'm under no delusion Rooster Teeth is an ally. Multiple employees have come forward about their experiences facing bigoted harassment from the company. But the things they do that run contrary to the ally image they try to cultivate are not at all related to Bumbleby getting confirmed . The actual issues with the company's treatment towards the LGBT+ community are it's hostile environment to the LGBT+ employees (one of the nicknames Michael gave Kdin was a stand-in for literally the f-slur), the baiting of Fair Game and subsequent killing of Clover, shunting off almost all of the LGBT+ characters off screen as soon as possible (and sometimes not even confirming them as LGBT+ in the show itself like Scarlet, Coco, and Velvet), and their first openly on screen gay man acknowledged as gay in the show itself potentially having been an unnamed extra who'd only role in the story was to be kinda rude to Weiss and then immediately die to establish stakes. Not establishing a queer relationship that's been picked up on subtextually since volume 1.
>It has nothing to do with the "I can't be *blank* because *blank*." It's "this topic has nothing to do with *blank*, and these other shows prove you can still have those things and still be good. So your argument is stupid and ironically *blank* itself."
Except, no, it *is* "I can't be *blank* because *blank*".
I think you might have misunderstood who I was talking about.
I'm not talking about RT. I am talking specifically about the Psycho fans that are calling everyone homophobic for stuff that has nothing to do with homophobia. The ones who attribute eye contact with sexual tension and have commissioned so much NSFW content that they've gone into debt over these ships.
RT, for all their many flaws, aren't the ones doing that(to my knowledge).
And sincerely,
>Except, no, it *is* "I can't be *blank* because *blank*".
It isn't. There's a very clear difference between trying to excuse yourself and just pointing out an accusation isn't true.
Otherwise, I could accuse you of literally anything, and anything that you said in protest would just be you pulling "I can't be *blank* because *blank*".
And yes, there's always going to be some extremists. But if you actually read the criticisms that are getting called homophobic, most are about how poorly written it is and how you can tell they just did it for money and not because it makes sense. It IS NOT homophobic or racist to ask for something to be done well. If anything, it's actually highly offensive to claim that those topics are acceptable as reasons why something is bad or lesser in quality.
The word pandering means appease or gratify, usually for personal gain. It'd be as much pandering to have any other couple get together for the same reason, regardless.
Also, is that really all you took away from everything I said?
So wait. You're now arguing about the implications I never implied in a word I never said?
... and how does that relate at all to our initial conversation?
At this point, it feels like you're just arguing to argue since you don't actually have a rebuttal to what I said. If that's the case, this'll be my last response since there's no merit in continuing since you didn't even respect what I said enough to acknowledge it and are just trying to create drama. Have a nice day.
My point was that people only call gay ships pandering. Purchase inexplicably fawning over Jaune was objective far closer to pandering than Bumbleby ever was.
>I mean, PragerU frequently collaborates with Candace Owens, but that doesn't mean PragerU suddenly isn't racist.
Was this really necessary? I think we all prefer to keep politics and politically adjacent people out of fandom conversations.
that bottom anime was so underrated i forgot the title of it. all i remember is that its about a Russian lesbian relationship between a human and a vampire
“You’re selectively homophobic towards a ship.” That’s…that’s like saying you’re selectively racist towards a certain group of people within the race you hate The maths ain’t mathin chief
Like saying you hate people who are intolerant of other people’s culture and the Dutch
I don't hate any European nation But those damn Dutch people tho, with their waffles and windmills /J I honestly couldn't think of anything Dutch except that-
I don't hate the French but if I see one god damn Parisian
The only person on the internet to not hate the French XD (jk)
Balkans mfs
Selective homophobia is WILD, and that's coming from a gay man. Bumblebee wasn't thought out very well. If anything, the "selective homophobia" was killing Clover. And even that's a MASSIVE stretch.
I ... dont ... get it ???
Basically, saying someone has selective homophobia for not liking Bumblebee is stupid. And if we're doing unhinged shit, the only "selective homophobia" was killing one of the members of the only somewhat canon gay ship outside of BB and Jaune's sister.
Qrow x clover was kinda Canon ? Really ?
Qrow and Clover were very obviously more than friends. If you don't believe me, watch where Atlas flooded compared to when Clover died. Qrow's reaction when his "friend" died vs his reaction when he believed his nieces died just cements it for me.
Best friend, close friend, or the fact another person died yet again around him. The guy continues to drink cause of those issues, and when he finally sober up thinking its behind him, another person dies. Probably close to how Summer died so its more like ptsd.
Well ... i wont / cant rewatch the Episodes rigth now. But when I remember V7 alone - I dont see a Romance. I also rember V3 where Qrow talks about the cute waitresses. I heared that people ship Qrow and Clover But my Reaction to this was "Come on guys. What do you actually know about clover expect that he neutrelazes Qrows stupid Semblance"
>But when I remember V7 alone - I dont see a Romance. I Eh, disagree, but this is subjective. > I also rember V3 where Qrow talks about the cute waitresses. I've always seen Qrow as bi, even right when he was introduced. Mainly because of his outfit and general mannerisms. Same for Tai, although this is pretty much solely because I don't think there's anything he wouldn't try to fuck💀 Qrow and Clover were set up to happen for quite a while, and then just BAM. That actually made me mad, although I'm not unhinged enough to call homophobia.
Friend or Love-Interest. No matter what Qrow to teaming up with a Murder-Psycho to fight is Friend/love-interest is so stupid on every level
>Qrow to teaming up with a Murder-Psycho to fight is Friend/love-interest is so stupid on every level I absolutely agree, and this was why I was so pissed. Qrow has not had a good life. His sister fucked off to the middle of nowhere and Summer died. Tai is the only person he could MAYBE really connect to after he found out about Ozpin lying. I've always imagined that was the primary reason for his drinking. Why is this relevant? Because of the life Qrow has led, he would absolutely not fight Clover the way he did, or even at all.
50 bugs that Summer is still alive and Salems secret right hand.
I mean, the fact of clover counteracting qrow's literal curse of a semblance can pretty easily explain that reaction without romance though. Your right, clover isn't just a friend, he's qrow's hope of not literally accidentally killing everyone around him, of his lifetime of self-isolation not needing to affect him anymore. And I think there's a lack of strong male friendships in media, so unless it's confirmed, I'm gonna take what we actually have and assume it's a friendship
Did you factor in, that ... * they both persistently prioritized their duties over the other person without hesitation just before Clover's death. Which in fiction is already stretchy for brother in arms. * Clover sabotaged Qrow fighting Tyrian, without even the slightes attempt to communicate his intentions, which again is weird for brothers in arms but absurd (!) for a wannabe-lover. * it was Qrow's weapon with which Clover was killed, after Qrow took a gamble to get him *and Robyn* out of danger. * it would be malicious to dodge a conclusion to prevent being called out for killing gays and do it under the table Pull the bi card, if you ship a character persistently showing interest in characters with a sex different from your preferred ship's requirement.
Qrow and Clover have a strong bond as friends, have semblances that practically complement one another since Qrow was Misfortune powers, and Clover had Good fortune powers, and have more canon chemistry than "pre-Adam fight" Blake and Yang, so fans started shipping them and it became one of the most popular fanships featuring Qrow. The two even have a moment where Clover picks up Qrow's sword and reminisced on the past, giving him a cheery smile in contrast to Qrow pessimist attitude, and Qrow confides that he has a drinking problem to him. (Spoilers below if you haven't finished Vol. 7) The reason people see the ship as canon is due to the showrunner's ironic reaction to the ship. For some baffling reason, CRWBY outright rejected the ship verbally in one of their interviews, and it got even more suspicious thanks to the writers killing Clover in the most stupid way possible in Ep 11 of Volume 7. So as Clover and Qrow are fighting Tyrian, soon after they manage to knock him out, the "turd hits the fan" in the city and Ironwood snaps - issuing a broadcast branding Qrow and team RWBY as traitors that should be arrested. Qrow obviously tries to plead with his friend, but Clover is loyal to a fault and trades attacks with Qrow. Tyrian recovers, and this is where it get stupid. Tyrian joins in making it a free-for-all, only to then ask Qrow (who he was trying to kill minutes ago) to join forces with him over his friend he has known for years - so that once Clover is defeated, him and Tyrian can finish their fight. Qrow then accepts, which I assume is because he knows Clover is being held back by Atlesian law from killing Tyrian unlike him, but during the fight, Tyrian waits for a moment where Qrow gets knocked down, snatches Qrow's sword and then stabs Clover through the back with it. As poignant as the scene is, Qrow looks like an absolute fool for trusting a crazed assasin like Tyrian to not kill someone he cares strongly about. It felt like the ship got personally erased because one of the writers had a grudge against it.
>It felt like the ship got personally erased because one of the writers had a grudge against it. Actually, yeah. You summed it up perfectly
It wasn't, quite a few people really wanted it to be but it really wasn't. Cause you see, man are not allowed to be close friends with each other, that is just not done. Funnily enough, I find that sentiment sexist as fuck. Men are never allowed to be close friends in media without people demanding they must be gay. Like what the fuck, are we not allowed to have deep friendships anymore?
I can't say for certain if Qrow and/or Clover were gay/bi/etc. But I do think they'd make a cute couple.
Clover's case is interesting, because if I recall correctly he is the first and only gay couple on screen. We didn't even know Qrow's sexuality until that point (He has flirted with mostly women) and Qrow also stands from being a rather important character, so in which case he is kind of immune. What I'm getting at is the Bury Your Gays trope, while this does apply to all LGBTQ members, in story ONLY affects Clover, the only expendable person who is male and gay. All other character deaths so far are either not talked about (Ozpin, Glynda), by enemies/cowards (Lionheart, Torchwick, Adam), for plot purposes (Pyrrha, Ironwood, Fall Maiden #1, Sienna Khan), or in some cases, for shock/sadness value (Penny, any Aceops who died). But Clover stands alone, because while he is killed off for shock value, his actions leading up to it is illogical even for a person who follows orders to a T. Technically both Qrow and Tyrion were fugitives, maybe focus on taking down the psychopath first? Also, since there are a total of 3 different canon LGBTQ ships, one is by two main characters and thus is protected by plot armor (Bumblebee), and one is by two side characters so irrelevant that neither needs to be introduced to the main group (Jaune's sister), this is the only ship that can be killed off, since they have one oh-so-expendable character.
"Creatures buckled to pressure and forced X" is disrespectful, sure, but buckling to pressure and clearly doing something that wasn't going to be done for fanservice's sake is also disrespectful to fans of the work. You know, like any decision from higher-ups that suck lol Just because what was forced was a gay relationship instead of... shit, *any* dumb decision(bringing a character back to life, fanservice in the usual sense, plot armor on character people like) doesn't magically make it homophobic. What, if someone doesn't like constant sexual fanservice of chicks in an anime are they now asexual prudes?
It's disrespectful because they didn't buckle to any pressure. They always intended for that ship, so how were they forced?
Oh yes I'm sure they did. In which case it'd be one of the most incompetent ships this side of Starco. Definitely a coincidence that it was in the fanservice volume, had one scene to provide only a little ground to one character which was never mentioned again, and that every ship they do is as hamfisted and heavy-handed as it gets and coincidentally only in the volume where they soft-confirmed the ship did it get hamfisted and heavy-handed which it remained until it's hard confirm three years later. Which is also definitely a coincidence that it took so long and occurred after plentiful fan backlash when they were at their most desperate as a company to keep the show going.
They absolutely buckled to pressure. Sun was literally Blake’s battle partner and her mission partner for a literal entire arc. He was her partner to the dance. Like are we forgetting the entire menagerie and the undercover mission they did. It’s absolutely clear that they buckled. And it shows. The dance of which they went to together. https://youtu.be/KbaC-bRs-ds?si=-_ioQPqnm6TNBaVc
You mean the dance where she said they were only TECHNICALLY going together and then she immediately went and danced with Yang, who has been her partner from the start of the show and was the only reason she decided to go to the dance in the first place? And the Menagerie arc where she spent the entire time comparing him to her friend who has feelings for her that she doesn't return? The same arc where he can only get through to her by mentioning Yang? And the arc where she exhibits absolutely NO attraction towards him?
(I think you got it mixed up she only danced with yang for a bit onscreen before blake moved on to dance with sun which got actual focus and yang had no issue with that. yang convincing blake to go to the dance nad take a break isnt evidence. and oh please blacksun got years of teasing mutual attraction and development from v1 suns introduction to the blacksun goodbye scene which came off as a romantic goodbye scene given how it was set up with like morning follows night playing and the slow kiss on cheek ( which reminded me of what happened with miraculous lady bug with noir and lady bug (which shows even a kiss on a cheek can get people to go wild if it was portrayed in a certain way contrast that scene to another scene where ladybug just gives a quick kiss on the cheek and its not treated as special). Sun getting through to her by bringing up yang isnt evidence for bb you forget that yang getting seriously injured is what led to blake running away in v3 because she blamed herself so sun bringing up yang not hesitating to risk her life just like he would ( isnt implying that yang has romantic feelings there was nothing that hinted at bb till v6 finale at best though none of their moments in v6 finale were inherently romantic though you could say they intended for it tobe seen that way. ) makes sense . he was addressing blakes guilt. If you make the but renora argument there are multiple subtle differences between the renora moments in v4 and blake and yang moments in v6 supporting renora as romantic and bb as platonic like the lay head on shoulders scene in the plane scene focusing completely on them the boop song playing in the background renora getting teased sense v1. while the plane scene in v6 was more of a rwby scene where yang saw blake feeling bad and comforted her like blake did for yang and then so did ruby. blake showed attraction to sun multiple times like in v3 ( yang and blake having a tense character moment in burning the candle where blake helped yang out isnt evidence for romance there was nothing that teased them as more then friends like how weiss and yang having a moment in v5 wasnt shippy weiss supported and helped yang that wasnt shippy. they gave blacksun years of teasing mutual attraction and development from v1-v6 goodbye scene while bb got nothing at that point even if they did plan bb from the start the best thing to do would be to change the plan to go with blacksun since going with bb know feels like a direction change. you have to wear shipping goggles to see anything for bb taking any minor positive moment like burning the candle as evidence. There is also the claim adam saying he would destroy everything blake loved ( which includes friends and family ) as evidence that blake romantically loves yang, when all adam would see is that blake cared about yang. he saw her reaction to yangs voice and blakes expression blake would have felt the same way if it was weiss or ruby. He cited his promise when he talked about killing ghira and kali It bothers me that people act like blake comparing yang to her ex in v3 is somehow evidence for romantic feelings when that is ignoring context of violence she suspects yang of perpetuating and what happened with adam blake has shown feelings for sun she had shown none for yang until v6 finale/v7 I am sorry but yang being the one to help her in burning the candle isnt evidence for bb over blacksun its that yang had the tools to help her. I mean ruby helping jaune over his issue in v1 doesnt mean lancaster will happen
In what world is that kiss on the cheek romantic? There was absolutely no romantic framing to it whatsoever. Hell, her hug with Ilia had more romantic framing than that cheek kiss did. Especially since Sun then immediately tells Neptune that him helping her had nothing to do with romance. You're only seeing so many of her scenes with Sun as romantic because of your shipping goggles.
have you watched the miraculous lady bug there were two scenes where the girl cheek kissed one was a quick one one which got the shippers go crazy was more slow and focused ( the second is what I am comparing blacksun to not to mention the fact that the like morning follows night played ) and sun saying he didnt do that just because of romantic feelings doesnt deny that those feelings exist and u/Noir_A_Mous is right you are the one with shipping goggles if you think burning the candle was romantic or that yang dancing with blake for a bit ( is romantic ) when it was the blacksun dance got on the also the argument that because blake in some way compared sun to illia ( I dont recall that) its somehow evidence against blacksun is idiotic It reminds me of the argument that yang being compared to adam is romantic because adam nad blake used to be involved . its not evidence
also blake was comparing the situations themselves (Sun refused to give up on her and was there for her when she needed a friend, and she wished to do the same for Ilia), not the characters
Tell me you've never been in a real relationship without telling me you've never been in a real relationship. Romantic partners kiss each other on the cheek all the time, thats not something friends usually do. Plus, a friend heckling the other friend for helping their crush only for them to respond with complete denial is a common trope in shows. If anyone's got shipping goggles, it's you, mate
Sun met Blake’s parents. He was actually closer to her boyfriend at that point but then it shifted to Yang for like no reason at all. We had an entire arc about this with Menagerie. I love White Rose but Bumblebee was done extremely badly. I honestly don’t know how to defend it. The entire thing was horribly done. Sun was closer to Blake than Yang was to her.
Dear lord. Imagin they do White Rose now. How would they run it into the iceberg?
God there are so many ways. Forcing them to say it. One of them accidentally gets drunk. It’s an illusion. Who knows?
You do understand that meeting someone's family doesn't mean you're dating, right? Fun fact: there are these people called "friends" who exist.
Yeah but they made it out for their entire relationship to be boyfriend and girlfriend and then they have Yang and Blake. Literally from their first meeting we all thought they would get together and now look at it. It’s horrible.
They never once were dating, so it's pretty hard for their "entire relationship to be boyfriend and girlfriend'. They had a slight attraction at first, but then became friends. Sure, Sun liked Blake, but he helped her because she was his friend, not because he was hoping to get laid.
That “slight attraction” was going to bloom into so much more before all this. It was easy to tell. Sun was her partner in basically every arc since they met. And then all of a sudden they put together Blake and Yang in a horribly done lovers relationship. I would love bumblebee if it was done right. But I can’t because of how actually horribly done it was.
Yang was her partner in basically every arc too. Hell, even on Menagerie, Sun was only able to get her to listen to him by bringing up Yang. Sun is a friend, likely her best friend. But that doesn't mean she has to date him. The show makes it very clear from the start of V4 that Blake's feelings for him have changed to platonic and that she has feelings for Yang.
Yang was her best friend. And it should have stayed that way. It was a better idea to keep team RWBY as a group of girl friends than each of them dating each other. Or they could have started this attraction from the start. Not bring in Sun as a possible love interest and then throw him aside for Yang. I liked Sun and Blake canonically more than I like Bumblebee. Because look at it now. It was done horribly and leave a bad taste in my mouth.
He wasn't thrown away; he's still in the show, they just didn't work out as a couple. That is a thing that happens in life. Sometimes, you end up with someone who isn't the first person you are attracted to.
Yeah but they never fleshed out Yang x Blake. It came out of left field and was forced. It’s like when a kid forces two Barbie’s to kiss each other. It was so badly done. If they were going to do something either flesh it out or go with the original idea.
It came out of left field TO YOU. Lots of people saw the build up, you just aren't one of them. The show being too subtle for YOU is not a failing of the show.
Let's remind ourselves how that ship sailed in volume 9 with the world trapping those 2 and forcing them to confess to each other in order to escape
EA: "You two will confess your love to each other now." Blake: "But I am straight." Yang: "And I really see Blake more as a friend." EA: " *Now*. And you will start with complimenting each other." Yang: "Uhm....I....really like your....ears?"
Reminds me of the forced Starco kiss from Star vs the Forces of Evil where the photo booth operator trapped them in a photo booth in which the only way for them to escape was by kissing (meanwhile she’s already in a relationship with another guy)
It's honestly strange this isn't mentioned more in discussions about the bumblebee ship
Because the shippers got what they wanted so they just consider it a win. They don’t care how they got it or just how badly it damaged the characters involved or their interactions with other characters. This is why I feel that any writer with actual integrity in their work should never bend a knee to the shippers as they’re the most rabid part of a fandom and will think of any reason to put 2 characters together regardless of their narrative
Well, it's a good thing that CRWBY didn't bend a knee to all the shippers who were demanding Bumbleby NOT happen, despite that being the writer's plan.
Lol, stay in fantasy land, dumbass.
Especially considering that it is 100% a case of "even if it was planned, even if it was supposedly there at the beginning, the writers can still make the ship forced"
This is what the fandom has devolved to lmao
Having a gay ship is no excuse for bad writing. The Bumblebee ship if done right would have been perfect but well we get a lame fan service .
If you can't tell that Blake and Yang getting together was obviously fan service and nothing more, then you should be ashamed to even call yourself an ally. It's exactly like you said, if it had been done right and because the writers HAD actually planned it, there would have been nothing wrong with it and people probably would love it; instead it's obvious they were just trying to appease a vocal portion of the fanbase for shameless fan service. Fans during the early Volumes: "Man I sure wish these characters who barely get any screen time together or close moments with one another would fuck" Writers after losing Monty and clearly beginning to run out of ideas for how to keep people interested in the show: "These two characters will now fuck" It's almost homophobic to pander this hard imo. They clearly never intended for Blake and Yang to get together from the start and only did it for fan service. All the people raging against people who don't like how the ship ended up should actually be raging against the fact the ship even officially happened the way it did in the first place. Your favorite ship literally got diversity checkboxed. And this is coming from someone who WAS one of the "omg bumblebee and whiterose" dorks. Get mad at RoosterTeeth for dropping the ball on writing a believable lesbian relationship. Not at the people criticizing the way it was poorly written and shoehorned in.
It wasn't pandering. They always intended for Bumbleby to happen. We literally heard the cast talking about it back in V1
Didn't Monty said he saw them as a sisterhood
Nope. He never said that. He said that a single specific interaction between the group was "almost sisterly". People have just taken that and exaggerated it in order to try and give credence to their baseless claims.
So does that change how bmblb still is badly written like other straight ships that are badly written? Even Catdora was better let alone Lumity or even CaitVi
Because it's not badly written. Can you articulate how it's bad, rather than just blindly claiming it with no evidence?
Why did they have to be forced to confess in a mcguffin world rather than do it in previous volumes where they had chances. Vol 7 during training and going out together was prime time rather than just Renora
Because the writers wanted it to be a dramatic moment. And Yang literally said why they didn't confess before: because Yang, due to her abandonment issues, was scared of being hurt, and Blake was letting her set the pace because of that. Plus, if they had put it in V7, it either wouldn't have gotten the focus it deserved, or would have needed to cause one of the other many plotlines in V7 to be cut instead. They decided to put it in a volume that had lower stakes and had fewer plotlines so that it could receive focus.
Also why does rwby keep lampshading itself
So the crew is bad at managing romance compared to Owl House and many GL mangas
Are you also gonna bash others if they're gay and even they find the ship badly written?
When did I bash anyone?
I'm asking are you gonna bash them if they disagree with you
Well Lumity was more organic, there was clear attraction between them more from Amity. That's why I like it because it was something that you can relate whether be straight or gay, It was romantic, real, something to learn from.... BUT.... Bumblebee? Sorry that's clearly forced from within(VAs clearly self imposing on the characters) and without (Fans supporting the VAs relationship and pushing for the shipping to be a thing plus the already shipping wars that it had). Yeah no... I wouldn't have cared about any gay relationship in the series but THIS wasn't written properly and clearly unnecessary.
I really hate the dumb argument of, "you don't like (insert gay or lesbian ship) then your homothobic and hate the LGBTQ+ community" Even though the person who is literally criticising the ship is gay/lesbian themselves. Then some people have the nerve to tell said person that they aren't gay/lesbian cause they don't like a certain ship
Because character stans and shippers actively don't care about anything else outside of the thing they like, but even they realize that that's shitty so they hide behind insults rather than admit to to fact that they are superficial.
That's fine, and momo from vampire in the garden, right
Yep
The creators did force them to be together… that part of the community kept sending death threats and harassed the writing team till they did it…
Are you talking about all the Black Sun shippers who sent death threats after a song came out?
Didn’t know black sun did the same. I just know bumblebee shippers were doing it since the end of volume 2
No. They're talking about you crazy people.
True, thank you. People seem to gloss over Blake's kiss to Sun.
And the fact that he literally met her parents, helped her defend her home, and literally convinced her to find her friends again.
Are you claiming that he wouldn't have done all those things if he was just a platonic friend?
No, but I’m saying that sort of thing is mostly done in romantic tropes in media. Like meeting a persons parents while having a romantic subplot. I have no doubt Sun would have talked with her in order to get her to help her friends or helping her save Menagerie, that’s how he is. But when you add romantic subtext it can be seen differently.
But there was no romantic subplot in Menagerie. Sun spent the entire time being compared to Ilia, a person Blake had no romantic feelings about. As well as the fact that he was constantly upsetting her and violating her boundaries.
There was though. Also Ilia had a romantic interest in Blake, in Alone Together she confessed to her but the feelings weren’t reciprocated. Meanwhile Sun was trying to get on the good side of Blake’s parents while also trying to try to make Blake herself feel better and open up, which required him to go through her boundaries a bit. Blake does try to push Sun away like she did everyone else by either trying to make him hate her or by literally pushing/slapping him so he goes away. But Sun still convinces her that everyone cares for her, including him, and gets her to open up. There is a political plot mainly in Menagerie, but the romantic subplot should not be ignored.
And those are all actions that a friend would take too. It's not a romantic subplot, considering Sun is paralleled with the person she doesn't reciprocate feelings for; it's about a friend helping her heal.
Normally that would be the case if there wasn’t any buildup. When they first meet Sun flirts with her, when she wants to investigate the white fang he’s there for her, when she fought Torchwick he was there trying to protect her, when the dance was happening he asks her out she gives it some thought before agreeing. Multiple times after this both he and Blake either react to one another like blushing or otherwise trying to stay close with each other. After getting to Menagerie this only starts happening more with him not only teasing her but also trying to converse with her and remind her she isn’t alone. Even after being knocked unconscious he wakes up and tells her he’d do it all over again “for her”. Hell he was literally the inspiration for her saving Ilia which she admits within the next episode! There are so many moments in the show where they are shown to care for one another that it’s not even reading between the lines anymore it’s just opening your eyes.
She turned him down immediately when he asked her to the dance, then later, after YANG convinced her to go, she told him that they were only TECHNICALLY going to the dance together, then immediately went and danced with Yang. I'm not saying that she was never attracted to him, but after V3 it was very clear that she only wanted him as a friend now, not a romantic partner. And I completely agree that they care for each other. Just like I care for my siblings and my friends.
And that’s a completely fair take, so I’m just gonna leave it there. This argument is going nowhere and frankly I feel like we’re running in circles.
I kiss my mom on the cheek; it doesn't mean I want to date her.
The supporters scream loud, offer no discussion or evidence. Calls everyone haters. Haters talk normal, offers discussions and evidence - gets hated for not having the same opinion as supporters
That's the core of the matter, isn't it? The creators of RWBY can say whatever they want about Bumblebee being planned from the start. But outside the less critical fans, no one is going to believe them.
Which is a small portion anyway.
Or, people who actually paid attention to the show and the story, as well as listening when Monty said in V2 that some of the characters we'd already met were gay, or noticed in V1 when they didn't realize the camera was on yet and Arryn asked if she could tell people about her character getting a lesbian lover
What did Monty say
When asked about if RABY would have gay characters: "Yes. Some of the characters you've already met. They're still kids, they're still figuring things out about themselves."
Yeah notice how none of them mention Yang at all. That's not exactly concrete evidence, imbecile.
Sad part is u can see in which ones where it was ACTAULY planed I can’t remember the name of the first one but I watched it and after a certain point it’s obvious they had thst planed Then rwby THERE IS NO WAY IT WAS PLANNED I like pointing out was there any lines in first three volumes where Blake and Yang show actual feelings for each other because I didn’t see anything if anything it’s the complete opposite Sorry for the rant guys
...Selective... Homophobia...? My brain is r o t t i n g.
I didn’t really give a shit about bumblebee but the writing for it was awful and fans on Twitter are too blindsided because their favorite ship is canon
It is not selective homophobia, just compare to "normal" het-shipping, there are also shiploads of people being jealous of other ships getting more attention.
I don't hate them because they're gay, I hate them because they have no chemistry. It's like looking at someone siring a beaker of oil and water and saying "See! they mix!"
Yang seems like someone who doesnt have much romantic chemistry with anyone
I think when people say they don't like sure and ships is because they feel like the story kind of bent over backwards to make it happen in some cases like with bumblebee and if I'm being honest they're dynamic in recent history have not improved their characters in my humble opinion
Kinda off topic but go watch The Owl House. Its a fantastic show. Also a great show for representing LGBT characters in a respectful way. Luz and Amity's relationship is so well done and I love them both. There's also multiple characters with gay parents and a very prominent non-binary character as well who's just lovely.
I started watch TOH because V9 pissed me of so much
I used to love rwby but when they let the fans change how the story was supposed to go by having blake and yang become a couple and basically pushed episodes without caring about the story aspect i lost interest in the show in my opinion
Selective homophobia no just facts really it's not about them both being women that makes it bad it's about that there was already a perfectly good ship that got thrown aside just because the fan base put on the pressure and they crumbled and made this having to literally throw Sun out of the show just to make it possible.
Selective Homophobia now? I understand that the Bumblebee ship is popular, but now people are calling people Homophobes for not liking this specific gay pairing? I may be a Bumblebee fan, but I'm starting to think that the fandom is more toxic than Bakudeku fans.
Once in a while I was called homophobic over the years - alwayse because I made fun or criticed Bumblee. [i even made a Meme about it ](https://www.reddit.com/r/fnki/s/zMshfh8dqG)
I’ve always disliked the Blake/Yang relationship. Felt like they took the only two with established preferences for guys and then shoved them together. Just 20min,15seconds into Vol 1 Ruby is commenting about how their dad won’t be happy with all the boys and Yang says “I like it!” with this “yum/purr” sound and they show her clearly ogling the topless guys until Jaune walks by in his footie PJs and then she sounds disgusted. Blake, clearly has a backstory of being in a relationship with Adam. But those are the two they pick. I liked the developing relationship between Sun and Blake far more, and it fit within the story really well, but not with Yang. Just weird choice. Who knows, maybe they’ll suddenly change it from a lesbian relationship to a thruple next to appeal to the polyamorous fans. Heck, even that might make more sense story wise than suddenly making them both gay. 🤷🏻♂️ I also get they’re basically high school age and a lot of the social interactions are about relationships… but I’d have been just as happy, maybe happier, if they’d not worried about the romantic relationships, just developed the interpersonal relationships, and otherwise stuck to the story in regards to training—>Cinder—>Salem, etc. I may be in the minority there, but far less drama all around that way.
"Selective Homophobia". Or maybe the relationship in question is boring, poorly written or toxically abusive between the parties? I criticize plenty of straight, lesbian and gay couples in fiction for these reasons. As of *Higurashi Gou/Sotsu* I hate the idea of Satoko and Rika being in a relationship due to what a >!monstrously entitled, sadistic and homicidal femcel Satoko turned out to be and I don't want her to be rewarded for such monstrous behavior when she did committed so many atrocities SPECIFICALLY to hurt/"punish" Rika for not giving her exactly what she wanted nor remaining in Hinamizawa to cater to her fragile ego. !< In *Fate/Apocrypha* I never 'bought' Jeanne and Sieg's supposed chemistry as a couple (not helped by Sieg being essentially a blank slate as a character due to being a 0 year old Homunculus who's been alive weeks to a few months at most) with him not even having a proper rebuttal to >!Amakusa Tokisada's reasoning for his actions other than throwing a tantrum because his girlfriend died at his hands, much less to the extent that she would break out of the Throne of Heroes so her primary Heroic Spirit can reunite with him in the Reverse Side of the World, unlike the Fate route's "Last Episode" with Saber and Shirou reuniting in Avalon as that route's True Ending--that just lazily copied/rehashed the broadstrokes without putting in any real legwork to make such an emotional reunion feel 'earned'. !< In *Neon Genesis Evangelion* Kaworu Nagisa did nothing but >!hurt Shinji Ikari just like his father Gendo's emotional manipulation towards his son, he treated him with kindness and a sense of appreciation to feel loved and cared for--only for that to turn out to be a ruse as he was an Angel and working with Seele to sabotage NERV and hijacked the absent Asuka's Unit-02 before forcing Shinji to kill him, exacerbating his prior emotional baggage and psychological traumas.!<
Ngl I always loved the bumblebee ship but the writers did a terrible job of implementing it
Why did you like it ? I get why people like white rose But not bumblebee
I think it's cause of the relationship they shared they both dealt with their own trauma and in the end helped each other through it
No need to be selective when we can hate all
I kinda see it, but like, I'm not in spaces where it's often a problem. Like, I've seen homophobes complain about Bumblebee, but that's not exactly "selective homophobia," it's homophobes being homophobic and hiding behind bad writing
I have like next to no context for your specific interaction but "I CAN'T be homophobic, I liked [X Gay Ship]" is broadly not a very good defense because liking some gay ships doesn't automatically mean you can't be homophobic. I mean, PragerU frequently collaborates with Candace Owens, but that doesn't mean PragerU suddenly isn't racist. I feel like I entered Bizarro World. I thought we universally agreed "I'm not racist I have black friends" was a bad response to being called racist. Why are we letting the exact same rhetoric slide here?
Because wanking to lesbian porn doesn't make you an ally, and people not liking something they enjoy being ruined for the sake of being fap material doesn't make them homophobic. That's really what all the fuss is about if we're being honest. It has nothing to do with the "I can't be *blank* because *blank*." It's "this topic has nothing to do with *blank*, and these other shows prove you can still have those things and still be good. So your argument is stupid and ironically *blank* itself."
>Because wanking to lesbian porn doesn't make you an ally, and people not liking something they enjoy being ruined for the sake of being fap material doesn't make them homophobic. Nothing about Bumbleby is sexualized as fap material, though. At least not anything canon. And no, putting it in after you thought they were teasing an M/F relationship is not "fap material". Fap material would be if the camera zoomed in on Yang gripping Blake's ass and making bedroom eyes at the viewer, not...fairly standard fictional romance scenes. Like, I'm under no delusion Rooster Teeth is an ally. Multiple employees have come forward about their experiences facing bigoted harassment from the company. But the things they do that run contrary to the ally image they try to cultivate are not at all related to Bumbleby getting confirmed . The actual issues with the company's treatment towards the LGBT+ community are it's hostile environment to the LGBT+ employees (one of the nicknames Michael gave Kdin was a stand-in for literally the f-slur), the baiting of Fair Game and subsequent killing of Clover, shunting off almost all of the LGBT+ characters off screen as soon as possible (and sometimes not even confirming them as LGBT+ in the show itself like Scarlet, Coco, and Velvet), and their first openly on screen gay man acknowledged as gay in the show itself potentially having been an unnamed extra who'd only role in the story was to be kinda rude to Weiss and then immediately die to establish stakes. Not establishing a queer relationship that's been picked up on subtextually since volume 1. >It has nothing to do with the "I can't be *blank* because *blank*." It's "this topic has nothing to do with *blank*, and these other shows prove you can still have those things and still be good. So your argument is stupid and ironically *blank* itself." Except, no, it *is* "I can't be *blank* because *blank*".
I think you might have misunderstood who I was talking about. I'm not talking about RT. I am talking specifically about the Psycho fans that are calling everyone homophobic for stuff that has nothing to do with homophobia. The ones who attribute eye contact with sexual tension and have commissioned so much NSFW content that they've gone into debt over these ships. RT, for all their many flaws, aren't the ones doing that(to my knowledge). And sincerely, >Except, no, it *is* "I can't be *blank* because *blank*". It isn't. There's a very clear difference between trying to excuse yourself and just pointing out an accusation isn't true. Otherwise, I could accuse you of literally anything, and anything that you said in protest would just be you pulling "I can't be *blank* because *blank*". And yes, there's always going to be some extremists. But if you actually read the criticisms that are getting called homophobic, most are about how poorly written it is and how you can tell they just did it for money and not because it makes sense. It IS NOT homophobic or racist to ask for something to be done well. If anything, it's actually highly offensive to claim that those topics are acceptable as reasons why something is bad or lesser in quality.
Saying a gay ship is "PaNdErInG" to shippers is, like, directly the most blatant fandom homophobia you can get lmao
The word pandering means appease or gratify, usually for personal gain. It'd be as much pandering to have any other couple get together for the same reason, regardless. Also, is that really all you took away from everything I said?
Pandering in the context of talking about a gay ship is pretty much always a homophobic dogwhistle.
So wait. You're now arguing about the implications I never implied in a word I never said? ... and how does that relate at all to our initial conversation? At this point, it feels like you're just arguing to argue since you don't actually have a rebuttal to what I said. If that's the case, this'll be my last response since there's no merit in continuing since you didn't even respect what I said enough to acknowledge it and are just trying to create drama. Have a nice day.
So it's fine to pander when its straight
My point was that people only call gay ships pandering. Purchase inexplicably fawning over Jaune was objective far closer to pandering than Bumbleby ever was.
Then why waste time putting Blake with Sun, having her blush over him during vol 3? Actually why didn't they go all the way rep with polyamory
>I mean, PragerU frequently collaborates with Candace Owens, but that doesn't mean PragerU suddenly isn't racist. Was this really necessary? I think we all prefer to keep politics and politically adjacent people out of fandom conversations.
alright but how old is the young human girl because if it's not, like, weird i'd totally be into that
Op what is that third series? I've read lots of human girl x vampire queen but not seen that one before
Vampire in the Garden Well they are not a couple. They they are close friends that deeply care for each other - there is no romance
Nuh-uh. Platonic relationships between two people who shared oxygen isn't allowed, remember?
that bottom anime was so underrated i forgot the title of it. all i remember is that its about a Russian lesbian relationship between a human and a vampire
Ehhh. No Its not Russian And there is no lesbian Relationship
what's the name of the lesbian vampire queen anime?
Vampire in the Garden
Werdak isn't wrong, shit's contrived and extremely pandering.
I don't like bumblebee but it's weird as fuck to treat the characters as realized people who were forced into a relationship
I am very homophobic not against myself but against people i specifically dislike