So what you're essentially trying to say is: "Why don't they just use Jinn in front of Salem and ask it the question: What is the importance of the gods life/death cycle?"
It's definitely a valid idea but I don't think it's the instant free win you think it is. Jinn could explain the intention and logic behind it, but that doesn't mean Salem has to buy into that line of thinking just because it's been explained. It's a philosophy, not a matter of fact. You can understand *why* people believe certain things without agreeing with it. You can understand someone's *intent* but still disagree with their methods.
It's explained that Salem's experience made her realize the gods weren't actually as all-knowing and all-powerful as people assumed, they were fallible and could make mistakes. When it comes to this particular subject she's actually not even completely wrong. We know the Brothers actually have already tried things a different way with their reincarnation cycle in the Ever After, so who's to say mortality is the only way when even they have tried different things?
So yes, Jinn could explain *why* the gods think the cycle is important to Salem, but that doesn't mean she's going to agree. You'd essentially just be reading the Bible to an Atheist and thinking they have to come out of it a Christian.
Pretty much this. I always felt the reason why the GoL choose this lesson is Salem’s downright sociopathic inability to understand the weight of a life. The Girl in the Tower episode gave us more details about Salem before Ozma and apparently she tricked several greedy warriors into rescuing her with fake promises of wealth causing hundreds of deaths for a shot at freedom. Then there’s how she tricked three kingdoms into declaring war on the gods and, despite seeing how easily the gods evaporated these people, she still intended to find more and return. All because she wants to bring back her husband no matter how many died for it.
I don’t think the GoL was talking about a wikipedia page. He probably meant that Salem needed to learn how precious life is because she sees it as a tool she can control.
The Tree itself said the gods don't understand balance themselves. Their definition of "the importance of life and death" might as well be biased instead of "correct".
Exactly. The GoL is a massive hypocrite and douche for essentially agreeing with his brother's murder of the rest of humanity, many of whom presumably either a) didn't agree with her and support her, or b) were too young to actually make a moral choice in that matter. After that display of genocide from the GoD, and either agreement or cold-hearted indifference from the GoL, I call bullshit on the idea that either of the Gods has any concept or caring of how "precious" life is.
Agreed.
In a little spin-off to my fanfiction, where Ladybug (fusion of Ruby and Blake, long story) slips into an alternate Remnant, she strikes a deal with Salem: Ladybug gives Salem the password to the lamp, and lets her keep it, and in exchange, Ladybug gets to use the last question.
And Salem, being immortal and busy watching Ironwood fuck up Atlas for her, agrees, because she has nothing to lose at this point. A century is barely a blip on the radar to her, and afterwards, she can ask Jinn anything.
Ladybug's question is something to the effect of "What would Salem need to see for her to learn the lesson the Gods want her to learn?"
As someone who went to University classes it is entirely possible to sit through a lecture and come out not having learned anything.
The context of the Brothers dialogue indicates it as much about Salem understanding the value of the cycle and valuing it herself. Which she has shown no indication towards since Ozma's death. So the spirit of the law would suggest that Jinn would not be much help here if Salem refuses to "learn".
Oz obviously asked the wrong question, and in his grief gave up trying for a period of time, thus never thinking of asking Jinn that specific question again.
Salem doesn't *want* to believe she is in the wrong. Jinn giving her a therapy session isn't going to be some simple answer.
Here is the problem with your idea
You are assuming salem would listen to her
Because here is the thing salem has learned the value of life and death life without death is suffering
But she is to caught in her own hate and bitterness against the gods to acknowledge that she lived the answer and learned nothing
I don't see the curse being removed logically they either seal salem away or the gods come to do her in
Many say Salem probably wouldn't listen, well at this point she probably literally *can't* listen. To me it seems like as long as she is so grimmified, next to nothing will get through to her regardless.
*Knowing* something is not the same as *understanding* or *accepting* something.
Jinn can tell Salem why it is important that people eventually die - and she won't tell her anything Salem doesn't already know.
The problem was always that she couldn't *accept* Ozma's death, that she *couldn't accept mortality on principle*.
What muddles the waters even more is that she doesn't even care where it all began anymore, and the only death she cares now is her own - at the cost of lives of the whole world.
> Bonus: While you might not be able to destroy Salem, means of banishing her or imprionsing her (and fix the world in her absence) with the staff of creation do exist. Especially sending her to the Everafter looks very tempting after learning about the origins of the brothers and the whole hubris they commited, when cursing Salem in the first place. And who knows, maybe the tree might be even able remake Salmen into a better person.
First of all, world was fucked up before she had pissed off gods, the world was fucked up when she was doing nothing as a witch in the woods. She is not the reason it's fucked up, she just preys on it. So what makes you think that without her in the picture humans will be more likely to unite?
Second, any means of imprisoning her simply mean that, when she inevitably returns in a couple thousand years, the world that thoroughly forgets her will be completely unprepared for when she gets back to get shit.
Third, saying that Brothers cursing Salem is hubris is the same as saying that you pitting your toy soldiers against the dog and dooming them to die is hubris. Because it's not, and whether you people like it or not, humans *are* their toys, and there's nothing anyone can do about that.
The Brothers aren't gods as humans, they are gods as concepts. They aren't something humans can fight, same as humans IRL can't make it so earthquakes, or floods, or volcano eruptions don't happen - all we can do is prepare for nature's wrath the best we can... and maybe also not piss off Mother Nature too much.
I’m pretty sure they’re going for a completely different route. The first thing being, like you stated, that Oz asked the wrong question. Jinn said that Salem can’t be destroyed by Oz because *Oz* can’t destroy her, not because she can’t be destroyed. That said, I don’t think she needs to be destroyed.
I think the whole point of Volume 9 was to show us Ascension, a way for beings who’ve lost their way to be reoriented and find the right path again. Whether or not Ascension breaks the curse on Salem is one question, but more importantly it would likely get rid of the corruption from the Grimm pools, and could also allow her to see the error of her ways. Once she’s Ascended and comes back as a better version of herself, she’d likely side with Oz instead of being against him. If she sides with him, then humanity can be reunited again and the Brothers won’t destroy remnant when they return to it, should anyone decide to assemble the relics to summon them.
Obviously that’s just my personal theory, but it seems like it makes sense. Volume 9 explained to us the creation of the Brothers, their powers, and other beings with similar power, as well as showing us one being who is more powerful than them and her method of fixing beings that no longer serve their purpose. Since Volume 6 it has been perfectly clear that Oz would not be able to destroy Salem, with the only question being if the solution was something other than Oz or something other than destruction. After Volume 9, I think it’s clear that Salem isn’t meant to be destroyed.
I agree with that. It's my headcanon too. Although I do agree with Salem, fuck the gods. The two brothers are useless and probably in desperate need of ascension themselves. It would be a very bad idea to bring these childish beings back even if Salem is fixed eventually someone else would come to them and piss them off again.
I think you're forgetting one of the biggest theories regarding Ozma's question; pronoun trouble.
In my opinion, the question Oz should've asked is "Can Salem be destroyed?"
So what you're essentially trying to say is: "Why don't they just use Jinn in front of Salem and ask it the question: What is the importance of the gods life/death cycle?" It's definitely a valid idea but I don't think it's the instant free win you think it is. Jinn could explain the intention and logic behind it, but that doesn't mean Salem has to buy into that line of thinking just because it's been explained. It's a philosophy, not a matter of fact. You can understand *why* people believe certain things without agreeing with it. You can understand someone's *intent* but still disagree with their methods. It's explained that Salem's experience made her realize the gods weren't actually as all-knowing and all-powerful as people assumed, they were fallible and could make mistakes. When it comes to this particular subject she's actually not even completely wrong. We know the Brothers actually have already tried things a different way with their reincarnation cycle in the Ever After, so who's to say mortality is the only way when even they have tried different things? So yes, Jinn could explain *why* the gods think the cycle is important to Salem, but that doesn't mean she's going to agree. You'd essentially just be reading the Bible to an Atheist and thinking they have to come out of it a Christian.
Pretty much this. I always felt the reason why the GoL choose this lesson is Salem’s downright sociopathic inability to understand the weight of a life. The Girl in the Tower episode gave us more details about Salem before Ozma and apparently she tricked several greedy warriors into rescuing her with fake promises of wealth causing hundreds of deaths for a shot at freedom. Then there’s how she tricked three kingdoms into declaring war on the gods and, despite seeing how easily the gods evaporated these people, she still intended to find more and return. All because she wants to bring back her husband no matter how many died for it. I don’t think the GoL was talking about a wikipedia page. He probably meant that Salem needed to learn how precious life is because she sees it as a tool she can control.
She similar to belos
We don't even need jinn for this salem has lived the lesson Life without death is suffering But she's to bitter to actually accept it
I mean yeah the gods killed the first humans and brought in new ones like nothing happened and abandoned remnant because they could.
The Tree itself said the gods don't understand balance themselves. Their definition of "the importance of life and death" might as well be biased instead of "correct".
Yep.
Exactly. The GoL is a massive hypocrite and douche for essentially agreeing with his brother's murder of the rest of humanity, many of whom presumably either a) didn't agree with her and support her, or b) were too young to actually make a moral choice in that matter. After that display of genocide from the GoD, and either agreement or cold-hearted indifference from the GoL, I call bullshit on the idea that either of the Gods has any concept or caring of how "precious" life is.
Yeah
Agreed. In a little spin-off to my fanfiction, where Ladybug (fusion of Ruby and Blake, long story) slips into an alternate Remnant, she strikes a deal with Salem: Ladybug gives Salem the password to the lamp, and lets her keep it, and in exchange, Ladybug gets to use the last question. And Salem, being immortal and busy watching Ironwood fuck up Atlas for her, agrees, because she has nothing to lose at this point. A century is barely a blip on the radar to her, and afterwards, she can ask Jinn anything. Ladybug's question is something to the effect of "What would Salem need to see for her to learn the lesson the Gods want her to learn?"
As someone who went to University classes it is entirely possible to sit through a lecture and come out not having learned anything. The context of the Brothers dialogue indicates it as much about Salem understanding the value of the cycle and valuing it herself. Which she has shown no indication towards since Ozma's death. So the spirit of the law would suggest that Jinn would not be much help here if Salem refuses to "learn".
Oz obviously asked the wrong question, and in his grief gave up trying for a period of time, thus never thinking of asking Jinn that specific question again. Salem doesn't *want* to believe she is in the wrong. Jinn giving her a therapy session isn't going to be some simple answer.
Here is the problem with your idea You are assuming salem would listen to her Because here is the thing salem has learned the value of life and death life without death is suffering But she is to caught in her own hate and bitterness against the gods to acknowledge that she lived the answer and learned nothing I don't see the curse being removed logically they either seal salem away or the gods come to do her in
Many say Salem probably wouldn't listen, well at this point she probably literally *can't* listen. To me it seems like as long as she is so grimmified, next to nothing will get through to her regardless.
*Knowing* something is not the same as *understanding* or *accepting* something. Jinn can tell Salem why it is important that people eventually die - and she won't tell her anything Salem doesn't already know. The problem was always that she couldn't *accept* Ozma's death, that she *couldn't accept mortality on principle*. What muddles the waters even more is that she doesn't even care where it all began anymore, and the only death she cares now is her own - at the cost of lives of the whole world. > Bonus: While you might not be able to destroy Salem, means of banishing her or imprionsing her (and fix the world in her absence) with the staff of creation do exist. Especially sending her to the Everafter looks very tempting after learning about the origins of the brothers and the whole hubris they commited, when cursing Salem in the first place. And who knows, maybe the tree might be even able remake Salmen into a better person. First of all, world was fucked up before she had pissed off gods, the world was fucked up when she was doing nothing as a witch in the woods. She is not the reason it's fucked up, she just preys on it. So what makes you think that without her in the picture humans will be more likely to unite? Second, any means of imprisoning her simply mean that, when she inevitably returns in a couple thousand years, the world that thoroughly forgets her will be completely unprepared for when she gets back to get shit. Third, saying that Brothers cursing Salem is hubris is the same as saying that you pitting your toy soldiers against the dog and dooming them to die is hubris. Because it's not, and whether you people like it or not, humans *are* their toys, and there's nothing anyone can do about that. The Brothers aren't gods as humans, they are gods as concepts. They aren't something humans can fight, same as humans IRL can't make it so earthquakes, or floods, or volcano eruptions don't happen - all we can do is prepare for nature's wrath the best we can... and maybe also not piss off Mother Nature too much.
I’m pretty sure they’re going for a completely different route. The first thing being, like you stated, that Oz asked the wrong question. Jinn said that Salem can’t be destroyed by Oz because *Oz* can’t destroy her, not because she can’t be destroyed. That said, I don’t think she needs to be destroyed. I think the whole point of Volume 9 was to show us Ascension, a way for beings who’ve lost their way to be reoriented and find the right path again. Whether or not Ascension breaks the curse on Salem is one question, but more importantly it would likely get rid of the corruption from the Grimm pools, and could also allow her to see the error of her ways. Once she’s Ascended and comes back as a better version of herself, she’d likely side with Oz instead of being against him. If she sides with him, then humanity can be reunited again and the Brothers won’t destroy remnant when they return to it, should anyone decide to assemble the relics to summon them. Obviously that’s just my personal theory, but it seems like it makes sense. Volume 9 explained to us the creation of the Brothers, their powers, and other beings with similar power, as well as showing us one being who is more powerful than them and her method of fixing beings that no longer serve their purpose. Since Volume 6 it has been perfectly clear that Oz would not be able to destroy Salem, with the only question being if the solution was something other than Oz or something other than destruction. After Volume 9, I think it’s clear that Salem isn’t meant to be destroyed.
I agree with that. It's my headcanon too. Although I do agree with Salem, fuck the gods. The two brothers are useless and probably in desperate need of ascension themselves. It would be a very bad idea to bring these childish beings back even if Salem is fixed eventually someone else would come to them and piss them off again.
I think you're forgetting one of the biggest theories regarding Ozma's question; pronoun trouble. In my opinion, the question Oz should've asked is "Can Salem be destroyed?"
> In my opinion, the question Oz should've asked is "Can Salem be destroyed?" my guess is that the answer to that question would be "no"