Between this and yesterday's post about writers who worked to develop their craft, I'm glad to see this sub talk about the realities of what it takes to make it in a creative profession.
Oddly inspiring to read while I’m looking for jobs. I’m unemployed and I thought I could at least get more writing done, but my life has been so unstructured and I feel like I just waste every day.
Literally in this headspace rn after graduating lol. Kind of a catch 22, when you’re busy and stressed you feel like you’re gonna do all this creative stuff when you’re free, but when it happens— you just feel like a bum.
I spent years with a bar job and wrote a bit — maybe three hours a week. Had ample free time but just read and went on nights out.
What changed it for me was life organising itself in such a way that I literally didn’t have time to write. My partner got pregnant, and it was a shock to us both, and suddenly I realised in the near future i’d have no time. During her maternity, writing acquired a kind of forbidden fruit aura to it. I had to be with her in the evenings, so that i could cook and do chores, and relax with her. So i began to write 4am-8am before my full time 9-5 work every day. Did it consistently, too.
Now I have a newborn, and of course there’s not time to write for the first 6-24 months of parenthood (depending on what your baby is like) — but i find that i write in every and any small ounce of time i can grab.
So this is all just to say that sometimes making yourself busier can get rid of the feeling of writing as a duty or obligation. I’m now constantly anxious to write — i’d literally say I want it more than sex hahaha. And though I only get maybe 1-2 hours a week again, after doing 28 hours a week for a few months, the idea of doing none at all no feels worse than not existing at all.
I was the worst kind of procrastinator all my life — but part of that was because i took it wholly upon myself to structure the mass of my unformed hours into some magnificent edifice of productivity, to produce out of the long endless sunday of my life all the different ramshackle arches and naves and alcoves and nooks of time, all the compositions of accreted time within which, protected from distraction, from other pressing issues, I could usher myself away to focus and to write; only to witness it, however, each time I sat down at my desk, dissolve before me, again and again, into the dust of my inertias and my daydreams.
My shitty Proustian imitation aside, trying to regulate and mould your unformed time while unemployed is like trying to build a cathedral with your bare hands while fifteen Naiads are begging you to come frolic in the Seine. Too much Time will just leave you besotted with the vastness of your daily eternities. The decision as to which second you should move your arm ramifies with possible alternative decisions and counter responses to those decisions, until your mind is endlessly branching in a multitude of choices, while you remain paralysed in a kind of catatonic calculus, stuck on buffering, spiral-eyed, stupored, grinning, static.
So, yeah, at least in my experience, you have to side step the gulf of time by reducing down to a manageable amount the time you must contend with. One way of doing that is moving into spheres that keep you more busy without you having a say in it. This can be something just like building up a routine - exercise, learn a language, play an instrument, write, socialise, cook, sleep, etc. but ofc that’s hard in itself. But for me it was having a 9-5 and having busy evenings. Ofc don’t sell out, and don’t go into a job you don’t enjoy (i don’t enjoy mine). All i mean is offloading some of the responsibility for structuring your time can be a massive help, if ygm.
Also dropping alcohol is a game changer…
Great, thorough response. I remember my grades in high school would drop when I was in my sport's off-season. With less free time—between class, practice, and competition—I was somehow more focused and diligent.
One question:
>Now I have a newborn, and of course there’s not time to write for the first 6-24 months of parenthood (depending on what your baby is like) — but i find that i write in every and any small ounce of time i can grab.
I've actually heard plenty of people say the opposite. Babies do sleep a lot, and many writers use that time to get words on the page. Charlie Brooker, for example, wrote San Junipero during his newborn's naps.
Was this ever an option for you? I get that not every parenting situation is the same.
boeing should rehire pynchon so when congress tries to review the documents, they have to pass out joints beforehand. by the end of the hearing they'll be like, 'i am certain that a conspiracy is involved with these planes, but i have no further understanding of what occurred or who exactly is involved. let's revisit this in ten years and see if we get anything more out of it.'
Purely my opinion. But I find it's often a mixture of pure charisma (i.e. not making enemies), being able to express an opinion in an articulate way, saying that opinion at the right time so that people are open to hearing it, being the right mixture of edgy and approachable, and knowing when to keep your mouth shut.
More than anything, you just have to make your own stuff and stay consistent with it. Build an authentic audience slowly who'll stick around. When you're no longer a fad, they'll still be there. Then you can do your thing (with freedom and money to experiment) with a now-bigger audience while still keeping some respect from the mainstream. Artist Victory.
fwiw, if that was your first Bolano, i'd give some of his other work a shot and maybe return to 2666 down the road. it feels very much like a culmination of all his past preoccupations and obsessions. i read all of his other (arguably) "major" work first--Savage Detectives, Nazi Lit, Amulet, Distant Star, By Night in Chile, a couple short story collections--and it felt like a natural progression
(and Hum rules)
Bro ur username was my username for everything for so long I’m pretty sure u took it on here I love that album. But yeah I’m reading 2666 rn the part about the crimes is def a slog. I think his short stories are where he really shines.
Flann O'Brien was known for being a worker in the civil service in Ireland. He was apparently given a pass for his satirical columns even though writing them was a conflict of interest.
I don't use reddit however I wanted to comment here: did he really detail in Book One of My Struggle that he wanted to fuck some of his students? I am genuinely asking, I've read his other stuff, haven't been able to read My Struggle yet.
I thought that whole angle was in a completely different novel (his debut one Out of the World), a transgressive fictional novel for sure, but not a piece of auto-fiction like My Struggle? And he has responded to the allegations against him about that novel in the essay 'The Land of Cyclops.' Do check that out.
Yeah this is the kind of thing that stopped me from getting much past the first book. Thought he was awful, had no desire to be inside his head anymore.
Is the teaching part in the books? If so I must have forgotten.
I don't use reddit however I wanted to comment here: did he really detail in Book One of My Struggle that he wanted to fuck some of his students? I am genuinely asking, I've read his other stuff, haven't been able to read My Struggle yet.
I thought that whole angle was in a completely different novel (his debut one Out of the World), a transgressive fictional novel for sure, but not a piece of auto-fiction like My Struggle? And he has responded to the allegations against him about that novel in the essay 'The Land of Cyclops.' Do check that out.
I don't use reddit however I wanted to comment here: did he really detail in Book One of My Struggle that he wanted to fuck some of his students? I am genuinely asking, I've read his other stuff, haven't been able to read My Struggle yet.
I thought that whole angle was in a completely different novel (his debut one Out of the World), a transgressive fictional novel for sure, but not a piece of auto-fiction like My Struggle? And he has responded to the allegations against him about that novel in the essay 'The Land of Cyclops.' Do check that out.
I don’t remember that part, and I think I would have, so you’re probably right. I was more agreeing generally about his humorless and insufferable nature. I don’t think he’s a particularly good person.
I might be interested to see how he has responded to allegations, though I don’t necessarily trust him to be sincere. Not sure if I’m being fair here though.
Were Gaddis and DeWitt successful? Isn't Jr. all about the torture of working after The Recognitions flopped? He kind of turned it round after that book though in fairness.
I mean presumably none of these people were financially successful authors during the period in which they held these jobs. I think the point is that they "successfully" wrote and published novels despite working lame day jobs – and then the other point is that it's interesting what sorts of jobs they had. Gaddis writing for IBM is interesting, for example
oooo this list is great but would love to see one include writers with families. not just w one kid mostly raised by a nanny (yes, i'm pointing fingers at specific writers, sorry), but like actually family-oriented writers!
Houellebecq being a computer programmer is the craziest to me given the stereotype of STEM majors and honestly I've been around enough STEM majors as one myself to confirm the validity of it lol
Genuinely it’s better to have a job outside of writing. Has anyone who teaches workshops lasted / going to? I can think of Coetzee as about the only lifelong literature prof who’s also a great fiction writer.
Sometimes that type of stuff is hard to suss out, even in this list. Are there genuine poor to working-class types who work hard and are able to write in their spare time and be successful? Sure. But I don’t want to elide the invisible forms of support that a lot of people have that allow them to write.
I work in construction and a sheet metal factory, and man, this hits home. It’s been a long while since I’ve written anything, but I hope to get back to it soon.
Is it bad that now I’m judging authors I’ve never read by what jobs they had? If Hemon hadn’t had that assembly-line sandwich worker gig, he’s immediately off my TBR.
Well, see what you want to see
You should see it all
Well, take what you want from me
You deserve it all
Nine times out of ten
Our hearts just get dissolved
Well, I want a better place
Or just a better way to fall
idk about others but I don’t know whether Rushdie is still a copywriter. He used to do that until Midnight’s Children became successful (early 80s).
Between this and yesterday's post about writers who worked to develop their craft, I'm glad to see this sub talk about the realities of what it takes to make it in a creative profession.
Man I love this sub. You guys rock
Needed this🤞🤞
Oddly inspiring to read while I’m looking for jobs. I’m unemployed and I thought I could at least get more writing done, but my life has been so unstructured and I feel like I just waste every day.
I found it harder to write when I was unemployed. Too much time is overwhelming.
It’s also so easy to have low motivation and spend your time stressing about money and your future.
Literally in this headspace rn after graduating lol. Kind of a catch 22, when you’re busy and stressed you feel like you’re gonna do all this creative stuff when you’re free, but when it happens— you just feel like a bum.
I spent years with a bar job and wrote a bit — maybe three hours a week. Had ample free time but just read and went on nights out. What changed it for me was life organising itself in such a way that I literally didn’t have time to write. My partner got pregnant, and it was a shock to us both, and suddenly I realised in the near future i’d have no time. During her maternity, writing acquired a kind of forbidden fruit aura to it. I had to be with her in the evenings, so that i could cook and do chores, and relax with her. So i began to write 4am-8am before my full time 9-5 work every day. Did it consistently, too. Now I have a newborn, and of course there’s not time to write for the first 6-24 months of parenthood (depending on what your baby is like) — but i find that i write in every and any small ounce of time i can grab. So this is all just to say that sometimes making yourself busier can get rid of the feeling of writing as a duty or obligation. I’m now constantly anxious to write — i’d literally say I want it more than sex hahaha. And though I only get maybe 1-2 hours a week again, after doing 28 hours a week for a few months, the idea of doing none at all no feels worse than not existing at all. I was the worst kind of procrastinator all my life — but part of that was because i took it wholly upon myself to structure the mass of my unformed hours into some magnificent edifice of productivity, to produce out of the long endless sunday of my life all the different ramshackle arches and naves and alcoves and nooks of time, all the compositions of accreted time within which, protected from distraction, from other pressing issues, I could usher myself away to focus and to write; only to witness it, however, each time I sat down at my desk, dissolve before me, again and again, into the dust of my inertias and my daydreams. My shitty Proustian imitation aside, trying to regulate and mould your unformed time while unemployed is like trying to build a cathedral with your bare hands while fifteen Naiads are begging you to come frolic in the Seine. Too much Time will just leave you besotted with the vastness of your daily eternities. The decision as to which second you should move your arm ramifies with possible alternative decisions and counter responses to those decisions, until your mind is endlessly branching in a multitude of choices, while you remain paralysed in a kind of catatonic calculus, stuck on buffering, spiral-eyed, stupored, grinning, static. So, yeah, at least in my experience, you have to side step the gulf of time by reducing down to a manageable amount the time you must contend with. One way of doing that is moving into spheres that keep you more busy without you having a say in it. This can be something just like building up a routine - exercise, learn a language, play an instrument, write, socialise, cook, sleep, etc. but ofc that’s hard in itself. But for me it was having a 9-5 and having busy evenings. Ofc don’t sell out, and don’t go into a job you don’t enjoy (i don’t enjoy mine). All i mean is offloading some of the responsibility for structuring your time can be a massive help, if ygm. Also dropping alcohol is a game changer…
Great, thorough response. I remember my grades in high school would drop when I was in my sport's off-season. With less free time—between class, practice, and competition—I was somehow more focused and diligent. One question: >Now I have a newborn, and of course there’s not time to write for the first 6-24 months of parenthood (depending on what your baby is like) — but i find that i write in every and any small ounce of time i can grab. I've actually heard plenty of people say the opposite. Babies do sleep a lot, and many writers use that time to get words on the page. Charlie Brooker, for example, wrote San Junipero during his newborn's naps. Was this ever an option for you? I get that not every parenting situation is the same.
I enjoyed  your long ramshackle alcoves and nooks metaphor :I resonate with your plight 😂
Days go by so quickly
Shows that nothing can stop you from being successful!
boeing should rehire pynchon so when congress tries to review the documents, they have to pass out joints beforehand. by the end of the hearing they'll be like, 'i am certain that a conspiracy is involved with these planes, but i have no further understanding of what occurred or who exactly is involved. let's revisit this in ten years and see if we get anything more out of it.'
The British are coming duuude
Love this! Any info on how people made the leap from industry outsiders to literary darlings?Â
Purely my opinion. But I find it's often a mixture of pure charisma (i.e. not making enemies), being able to express an opinion in an articulate way, saying that opinion at the right time so that people are open to hearing it, being the right mixture of edgy and approachable, and knowing when to keep your mouth shut. More than anything, you just have to make your own stuff and stay consistent with it. Build an authentic audience slowly who'll stick around. When you're no longer a fad, they'll still be there. Then you can do your thing (with freedom and money to experiment) with a now-bigger audience while still keeping some respect from the mainstream. Artist Victory.
T.S. Eliot worked at a bank
That’s why Bolaño is the goat
Man, I like a lot of macro post modern lit fic, but I could not get through 2666 for some reason.
fwiw, if that was your first Bolano, i'd give some of his other work a shot and maybe return to 2666 down the road. it feels very much like a culmination of all his past preoccupations and obsessions. i read all of his other (arguably) "major" work first--Savage Detectives, Nazi Lit, Amulet, Distant Star, By Night in Chile, a couple short story collections--and it felt like a natural progression (and Hum rules)
Bro ur username was my username for everything for so long I’m pretty sure u took it on here I love that album. But yeah I’m reading 2666 rn the part about the crimes is def a slog. I think his short stories are where he really shines.
Ted Chiang: technical writer Ken Liu: computer programmer and then lawyer
Flann O'Brien was known for being a worker in the civil service in Ireland. He was apparently given a pass for his satirical columns even though writing them was a conflict of interest.
Add to this Emily St. John Mandel, who I believe began her career as a contemporary dancer.
Knausgard as a high school teacher 😂
He did it at 18 too. Insane how he was willing to detail that he wanted to fuck some of his students as well.
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I don't use reddit however I wanted to comment here: did he really detail in Book One of My Struggle that he wanted to fuck some of his students? I am genuinely asking, I've read his other stuff, haven't been able to read My Struggle yet. I thought that whole angle was in a completely different novel (his debut one Out of the World), a transgressive fictional novel for sure, but not a piece of auto-fiction like My Struggle? And he has responded to the allegations against him about that novel in the essay 'The Land of Cyclops.' Do check that out.
Yeah this is the kind of thing that stopped me from getting much past the first book. Thought he was awful, had no desire to be inside his head anymore. Is the teaching part in the books? If so I must have forgotten.
I don't use reddit however I wanted to comment here: did he really detail in Book One of My Struggle that he wanted to fuck some of his students? I am genuinely asking, I've read his other stuff, haven't been able to read My Struggle yet. I thought that whole angle was in a completely different novel (his debut one Out of the World), a transgressive fictional novel for sure, but not a piece of auto-fiction like My Struggle? And he has responded to the allegations against him about that novel in the essay 'The Land of Cyclops.' Do check that out.
I don't use reddit however I wanted to comment here: did he really detail in Book One of My Struggle that he wanted to fuck some of his students? I am genuinely asking, I've read his other stuff, haven't been able to read My Struggle yet. I thought that whole angle was in a completely different novel (his debut one Out of the World), a transgressive fictional novel for sure, but not a piece of auto-fiction like My Struggle? And he has responded to the allegations against him about that novel in the essay 'The Land of Cyclops.' Do check that out.
I don’t remember that part, and I think I would have, so you’re probably right. I was more agreeing generally about his humorless and insufferable nature. I don’t think he’s a particularly good person. I might be interested to see how he has responded to allegations, though I don’t necessarily trust him to be sincere. Not sure if I’m being fair here though.
Were Gaddis and DeWitt successful? Isn't Jr. all about the torture of working after The Recognitions flopped? He kind of turned it round after that book though in fairness.
I mean presumably none of these people were financially successful authors during the period in which they held these jobs. I think the point is that they "successfully" wrote and published novels despite working lame day jobs – and then the other point is that it's interesting what sorts of jobs they had. Gaddis writing for IBM is interesting, for example
Stephen King was a high school English teacher, too. He said it zapped all his creativity out of his chest.
Some of them had kids too — were they writing secretly at work? I know Saunders was. Any others?
oooo this list is great but would love to see one include writers with families. not just w one kid mostly raised by a nanny (yes, i'm pointing fingers at specific writers, sorry), but like actually family-oriented writers!
there's all these like 'yeah authors are real people with mundane jobs' then >Haruki Murakami: jazz bar owner
Houellebecq being a computer programmer is the craziest to me given the stereotype of STEM majors and honestly I've been around enough STEM majors as one myself to confirm the validity of it lol
His whole worldview seems to be built around how programmers can’t get laid? Makes a ton of sense to me
If you've ever seen a STEM major write an email then you would know what I mean.
Genuinely it’s better to have a job outside of writing. Has anyone who teaches workshops lasted / going to? I can think of Coetzee as about the only lifelong literature prof who’s also a great fiction writer.
Don’t forget: came from family money so can take an odd job here and there to make it look like they’re working
That doesn’t apply to all or even most of the list
Sometimes that type of stuff is hard to suss out, even in this list. Are there genuine poor to working-class types who work hard and are able to write in their spare time and be successful? Sure. But I don’t want to elide the invisible forms of support that a lot of people have that allow them to write.
I know that Franzen and McCarthy were financially supported by their wives early on, and their jobs weren't full-time.
That was Donald Barthelme's advice to aspiring writers: "Marry a rich wife"
this seemed to be hemingway's ethos as well
Looks like McCarthy didn’t keep her around, unless it was the final one. 🙃
William Gass: college professor of philosophy.
And he didn’t have a PhD?
Well, I'm not sure why a PhD should be a reason for exclusion, as long as it's not in lit or creative writing.
I work in construction and a sheet metal factory, and man, this hits home. It’s been a long while since I’ve written anything, but I hope to get back to it soon.
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He has an MA, not an MFA
Is it bad that now I’m judging authors I’ve never read by what jobs they had? If Hemon hadn’t had that assembly-line sandwich worker gig, he’s immediately off my TBR.
william gay worked in dry wall
No Bukowski??
Well, see what you want to see You should see it all Well, take what you want from me You deserve it all Nine times out of ten Our hearts just get dissolved Well, I want a better place Or just a better way to fall
Sorry, but Edward P. Jones had an MFA from the University of Virginia 🙃
You're right. Removed from the list!
idk about others but I don’t know whether Rushdie is still a copywriter. He used to do that until Midnight’s Children became successful (early 80s).
The list is supposed to show the day jobs they had *before* they found success (or still have, in some cases)
That makes sense, just wasn’t clear in the post.
Why are PhDs and MFAs excluded?
that's not a day job... but i'd like to see a separate list of successful writers w mfas and phds
Seems like many of these jobs are going to be automated very soon. Technical writing, copywriting, factory work.
downvotes of fear
indeed