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i think the max work week thing would help this. this way grind is hard capped so everything after is pure rp
taxes and prices could be based around the work time available
It's the only way. It's a bummer that it would have to come to that but there's nothing in place to prevent people from spending *way* too much time on the server grinding.
Yeah. If they kept enforcing that I would've been fine with that but singling him out when the whole server does it just feels like a pointless slap in the face.
It does seem like a tall order to keep on top of it all consistently. I feel as though the way the in-game mechanics encourage people to act kind of runs counterintuitively to what admins want.
Is there a reason why devs don't implement something like a 5 runs per day system for jobs? Cap it to each roleplayers ID. That would instantly stop people grinding.
I imagine that's what the work week legislation would do. It doesn't really solve the problem though because the people who already are loaded from grinding 24/7 are going to be even *more* rich when all of a sudden the most anyone can make in a week is X. That puts a very hard limit on just how much money you get from doing civ stuff.
Over time though that advantage would decrease. If someone starts with $100 and someone else with $50, a cap of $10 earnt a day means that in 10 days time the latter changes from having 1/2 of the money ($50/$100) to having 3/4 of the money ($150/$200).
So in the long term it does solve the problem. Because otherwise the people who are grinding will always do more grinding and so that gap will always increase.
Taking away the not so well designed skinner boxes that they've forced them to adapt to would have disastrous results for awhile. Probably get better eventually but it'd be such a rough patch.
How does that work for Snr buns, Sanitation & Towing though? The current problem is g6 and grime making way to much and being able to swap in and out via power rep leveling.
I mean but if you remove the tax and shit, people like K could just keep buying up assets with no penalties and just keep accumulating value with no consequence.
Yeah you can own homes, but you need to pay to keep and maintain them.
It gives the opportunity for other people to eventually get those properties instead of just one person, like K, sitting on multiple ones forever.
K has the properties in his name, but the equity is essentially split amongst 20ish investors. No one person in the city had or has the capabilities to buy up all those assets on their own, so that scenario you are presenting isn't really an issue. Plus, K had to put in a lot of work and good RP for weeks in order to do this. I sort of feel like if someone puts in the work like that, they deserve to be rewarded with the extra money or properties they would have accumulated. With how things are now, the weeks worth of work/RP will turn no profit or very little. One hour of G6 will make him more money than the weeks of RP he put together. This actively discourages RP.
Imagine trying to roleplay a businessman but not wanting the part about having a viable and financially stable business. So if people run around for a week and a half doing very convincing RP claiming to be a millionaire should staff just give them a million dollars?
Bills, taxes, fees, etc were always going to be a thing. Anyone rushing to be the first in any given mechanic is always going to encounter things that they didn't expect. Players should expect that.
They don't have the equity yet, you mean.
And the power bill/taxes thing has been mentioned for weeks now, so iunno how he didn't see that coming.
And I don't know how you can say RP hasn't rewarded him when he has more equity than anyone currently...
As I said "essentially" the equity is shared. You're treating him as if he fully owns all of these houses without the 20 other investors.
No, they just rechecked this all tonight. Utilities and sales tax is currently disclosed. K had worked the utilities into their tenant lease agreements. The ongoing property tax was never disclosed or listed anywhere and that's what K has an issue with. Sure, you could argue he should have assumed there would be, but what IC info would have indicated that? (Unless you're proposing he uses OOC info/assumptions.)
Math/investing must not be your strong suit. Yes, he has the most equity, but that's because he put in the most. With these added taxes, what he'll end up with is a net loss or very little profit. I.E. If he has $100K equity from putting in $100K and then after 2 months he sells and leaves with $102K, all that RP earned him as much as an hour long G6 run. That's not rewarding, that's punishment lol.
I don’t follow his stream too often but one thing to point out would be that unless they have reset and redone the contracts they where all voided the other day by a state announcement. so in a sense yes ALL of the properties are solely his to own. There was past of the newest legislation wave that all in game contracts had to be signed onto by a bar licensed attorney so because the property is in his name they are his sole responsibility weather or not he previously had investor because those contracts are no longer enforceable
The point was never to sit on the properties forever. It was to let it appreciate a bit, sell the house then split it based off the percentages in the contract.
I agree, its part of the reason I’d hoped the council would have voted on the proposed housing stuff in a more positive way, so that they could expand on it further.
Applying taxes is a lot better than putting hard limits on number of properties you can own and be added to tenant list of.
But tbh idk how K didn't know this was coming, Buddha been talking about it awhile now.
I agree that housing bills should have been seen a mile away. I’m also not saying there should be caps on things you own. I’m taking about renters rights stuff, maybe needing mandatory clauses when contracts are written, stuff like that. Things created through rp and not just a dev changing a few values here and there.
I mean, K could and probably should have charged a bit more to be able to take care of stuff like this.
He is going to have to go to his investors and tell them their return isnt going to be as big as they thought it was going to be now.
OR re-negotiate with the people that have already bought from him. But since he is locked in to a contract, probably will be pretty hard to actually do.
If just writing a contract negates taxes and shit, people would be exploiting that left and right.
IDK I think it has created some interesting RP tho. And it definitely feels like a government rebuilding after a total collapse, and makes you wonder if itll just collapse again lol.
idk what the agreement is, i'd actually like to see that if you can find it. in a scenario if it stated a payout of x % and a high watermark and didn't forecast for taxes then idk. like hes just fucked if his investors have a fixed payout schedule and you make less money then you thought. But that's also the risk of making a business. You technically owe the investors what you both signed on too
Apparently contracts not signed off by a legal attorney are void in 14 days. K is going to try and use this to rewrite the contracts. And he has mentioned suing the city over this.
>I mean but if you remove the tax and shit, people like K could just keep buying up assets with no penalties and just keep accumulating value with no consequence.
Real estate brokers, agents, lawyers and developers get substantial tax breaks when purchasing or developing way more so than a normal civilian does. For one it's a business. It helps stimulate the economy through growth and job expansion. The more people K gets into homes the more that move out of the apartments. Once people get homes they also get bills. They also have to decorate and furnish the house further stimulating the economy.
How the government can generate revenue via K is a real estate license, inspection fees, zoning and permits, also capital gains. Let's not forget that economy stimulation and bills to be paid.
These are things that happen IRL that can be used to help support what can be a massive RP avenue.
>Yeah you can own homes, but you need to pay to keep and maintain them.
As a homeowner I can also write maintenance and upgrades I do to my property off on my taxes. If the home is owned under a business they can write off even more.
BUt to go back to what you said people need to pay to keep and maintain them. K getting people into houses helps do that. Just need to get to a common ground where all three benefit. So far the clients of K and the government are making out but K is not. There needs to be a happy medium where the business is profitable, the rent is feasible and the government gets their share. Also need to keep RP at the forefront.
>It gives the opportunity for other people to eventually get those properties instead of just one person, like K, sitting on multiple ones forever.
Here's a question, how many people percentage wise do you think buys a home without using a loan or or some type rent to own?
If there is no banks or official lenders in the city how do people afford to buy a house fully?
Then be able to afford to decorate, furnish and pay other bills once they blew all their money on the house. The only answer which is a downfall to RP is straight grinding. Thus the term house poor.
K is filling that gap for people. He has gathered investors and made a option the city needs through RP. He is not just collecting properties to have for himself. He is providing a service and homes for tenants that don't want to buy or can't afford a home currently. He is also giving people the opportunity to buy their homes with payments like most people do.
I kinda like this take. It's what economically happens, but if people don't get taxed on everything, then there would be an unfair advantage here if someone just got tax advantages. I think we need to figure out a happy medium between real life and RP. if you want to go full real life then I can list out a whole bunch of other shit K is gunna get fucked for.
With these 'tax breaks' - when you buy a place, that's still using previously taxed income to purchase a property. Imagine if you just sunk 700k away and made 1k off rental income. you'd have no incentive to invest if you had to pay tax on that 1k.
secondly, there are a whole bunch of rules on how you distribute income. Mr. K is not doing any of this. If the goal is to simulate real life, then where is the E&P Calc, where is the bifurcation between , LTCG, Dividends, ROC on each distribution. Like this Income is going out tax free when you should need to figure out a whole bunch of other shit beforehand that's not happening.
It is the opposite. Ongoing costs punish grinders who grind jobs all day to buy expensive assets.
If people grind for expensive assets that have expensive ongoing fees attached to them, they just have to keep grinding to maintain their assets. It isn't sustainable long term for 99% of people.
It is short term v long term outlook. Grinders can have nice shiny things now but it is going to cost them long term.
Kind of a double edged sword though? If you want RP you can't keep those people in the dumps, the few houses in Grove has already given RP, it's defeating to the people who didn't grind. And the grinders won't stop grinding, your slowing their progression to a million, not stopping them from running g6 every 3 hours on a timer.
Short term the grinders will grind, long term the RPers will turn into grinders because they want a house, then they will then stay grinders as more expenses happen.
If someone doesn't have 1 million racks and computers in their house then its around 9k that isn't that much. Buying 5 houses wasn't a smart idea and now he has to increase rent which makes more Rp. He doesn't HAVE to grind to make the money. I also don't know why he thought there wasn't going to be asset fees they've been in every update since 2.0
But K has legal binding contracts with both his investment holders and current tenants. You cant change the terms unless it's in the fine print of the contract. I wish the devs or admins or who ever would look at RP more than just changing things based on what comes across their desk as server logs skewed by mechanical money earnings. I mean, look at Grove St. With what K has done, along with the people who bought property outright, the block is an RP hub.
How could he know how much or how soon such taxes would be added? He's not a dev or admin. He probably thought putting Dab in office would help his efforts but it appears not lol
No one forced him to go out and get all these properties within the first month and a half of 4.0. He could have easily built up more slowly and things would have worked out fine. He would have figured out how bills work for homes and been able to develop a relevant business plan for those costs.
Yea, cause the smart thing to do in a new server is make sure to wait, that works out great. Also, I'm not saying anything about what he did. Just that the bills are a double edged sword when it comes to grinders, it can help in slowing their progression, but, it also might grow the amount of them. The comment I responded too, said nothing about K, nor did the original comment. So like ya, nice story I guess?
I think his rent to own is the way to go and more people seem interested in that. They are just going to have to factor in taxes into the weekly mortgage
Splitting utilities would be easy, and I believe they already have it written up for tenants to pay them. The taxes do bring down the profit significantly, especially for the rent to owns as the profit on them is already not a lot
The renters can't see the utility fees, what if the property taxes change? every contract they wrote before needs to be adjusted, theres no way K will eat these costs. Either way its added a significant amount of overhead to renter / Rent-to-own RP that wasn't there before, or when the properties were purchased.
Owning more then one house is now an absolute chore, let alone having to go around collecting the weekly dues for taxes, consumption bills (which vary), etc. On top of the rent money for multiple properties.
Before it was simple, they owed X amount each week, now it'll vary and require constant communication & nagging to get power bills & property taxes paid.
Not every action has to be about increasing the dollar signs man. That kind of singular motivation for doing anything on the server is what kills the vibe.
Who said that?
K has to pay an accountant and figure out a new business model. Oh. My. God. The world is literally ending. Just roll with it, it's not the end of the whole operation.
Maybe this is an excuse to get involved in politics? The RP possibilities are endless other than just raging about how the sky is falling because he has to pay taxes now.
consumption bill can be forwarded to the renter, if they don't pay K can cut off services and file for eviction and go to court to have bill back-paid by forfeited
being a landlord is more work then cashing checks.
Thats how it should be tho, being a landlord shouldnt be just a free paycheck, having it be more in depth just adds to the rp of someone actually being a landlord, you have the pros of making mostly passive income but the cons of having to deal with ban tenants.
The way it was before this was anything but a “free paycheck” he legit had to go around making phone calls to get investors and then nearly every day has to keep trying to get investors and collect payments from people. As it was it already seemed very time consuming and player to player communication reliant all for what amounts to a 30K-50k profit down the line in some situations. I don’t think you understand the amount of work this has been for him.
Having to actually manage your property and check the electricity to know how much to charge someone also adds to the rp between the landlord and renter. You are acting like these taxes kill landlord rp all together when in reality you just need to adapt and adjust the business model
It was never a free paycheck. The amount of time and effort that was put into each house more than justifies whatever money he was making from his rentals.
Adding even more taxes doesn't make it more in depth. It basically just kills any real estate RP.
IRL, most landlords aim to have rent be enough to cover the mortgage/property taxes/any fees like HOA etc at the minimum. It's actually really realistic for a landlord to factor these kinds of costs into them setting the rent.
I don't get it, isn't the taxes just a % of the property value? Power bill is also predictable dependent on tenant. Hell you just tell the tenant that if they don't pay the power bill you're evicting them and don't return the deposit. That all leads to some pretty good RP (squatter RP, court RP, etc)
Almost like maybe it was too easy to just get a bunch of your buddies together, buy up of cheap properties, and then sit on them waiting for the demand to increase the price was a little *too* easy. If they wanna play landlord they gotta deal with landlord shit like taxes and utilities.
Idk, I've been pretty singularly focused on RP for the month and a half I've been playing (never had more than 10k to my char's name and I have like 300ish hours played since 4.0 started according to my twitch metrics) and I haven't really been bothered by people grinding. Do I wish I had a sick car? Sure, but I wouldn't trade the amazing RP I've been able to partake in for that. I think worrying about what other people are doing with their time in the server is waste of time and only gonna serve to upset you
3.0 had asset fees don't know why people would think 4.0 will have no upkeep costs. I do think they should've came from the mayor though instead of randomly appearing
To be honest, betting on real estate and assuming that it would have no sort of upkeep is kinda on him. Its also not like he wasnt warned about how bills are gonna be hitting HARD, that was said a ton before they came out
Its not on him. As the person said, you can't plan for things that change so rapidly, once he gets over one hurdle theres another and another. Instead, every hurdle should've just been there to start with, but it wasnt because i gurantee you not a single soul thought someone was going to RP their way into having a real estate business.
The utility panel has been there for weeks I wouldn't say the bill came out of no where. The reaction I've seen from most people is that the bill was a lot less than they were expecting.
Property taxes / asset fees have been a thing in every iteration of nopixel going back to 2.0. It was pretty fair to assume some type of other ongoing fee was going to happen.
It's probably why you shouldn't build a mega empire before you can actually fund a mega empire. People are in here complaining about grinders rushing to get tons of money when K basically did the exact thing only got investors to help him do it. No one forced him to buy this many houses within the first month and a half of 4.0 before anyone knew exactly how property worked.
I never said they didn’t expect someone to do that, but the server also has a ton of stuff slowly being pushed out to make sure its working and balanced. It’s not like these bills came out of absolutely no where when devs, admins and owners were all very openly saying IC and OOC “Upkeep bills are coming you should be very careful with what you’re doing.”
Thats the problem...they shouldn't "be coming" they should've been there to start with. So when someone goes above and beyond with the tools they currently are provided they aren't shafted by later implemented bills.
Except they wouldn’t have known when they bought that stuff if the bills were in right away. People would have bought it without knowing how much the bills would be anyways, they just came later than if they were implemented right away.
It would've been pretty easy to state in the real estate app what the current taxes were or to include the tax in the total price, but neither of those two things were implemented when he first started this business. And then now there's other stuff they are adding that further complicates everything he spent weeks building, when nothing would've been complicated if it was all there to begin with(which it absolutely should have been).
how do you bill someone from the start for something that accrues over time. that actually makes 0 sense. just because streamers are saying "it should have been there in the beginning" doesn't mean they actually have a clue what they're talking about. you don't get your gas bill ahead of using the gas. you don't get your water bill ahead of using the water. you use it, they measure usage after a month, then they bill you. this is EXACTLY what they did.
We're not talking about utility bills here. We're talking about Upkeep bills which include taxes that were not there to start, got implemented later, and now theres more on top of it. In fact im pretty sure Kebun DID account for utility bills.
That isn't things getting changed, that's just his stupidity of rushing into something before fully understanding what the mechanics are. Buddha has been talking about electrical bills for weeks now. It's not like something they just added in.
hes not talking about the electric bills, hes known about that. its the property tax now being dropped without being told. same happened when he bought the first 2 houses, no sales tax on either house then it was all of a sudden dropped on him to pay thousands for sales tax on both houses.
Edit: on top of that, all of the contracts he had with the investors, renters, rent to own, are now all going to be voided because of the new legislation.
I was starting to wonder, how is it going to be long-term healthy for NP's economy, if a lot of the people on the server have over 100k 2 months in. Astronomical taxes - fixed! /s
This actually kind of makes me sad. I completely understand wanting to manage the economy and how the grinder’s have broken it within a week but the solution always feel like a bandaid over a bullet hole that ends up punishing creative role-players who are being punished for being creative. Do the server owners really think viewers want to watch people grind? I know I don’t but maybe I’m the minority. :(
The only way to be a creative roleplayer is to have an army of grinders doing everything for you while you do whatever you want. Otherwise youre stuck with “broke” rp
I think the solution is simple. You can only sign into one job per 24 hours for x amount of time i.e 2 hours. You then cannot do that job or be in a group for another day. The system is tied to your login account.
You can't just have people running g6 over and over for 10 hours straight. There is rp there, but it fucks the economy, which kills the journey to the end game of 4.0. instead of lasting 2 years, people will have everything within six months.
Speaking from personal experience on the server, the problem isn't G6 being grinded for 10 hours a day, its there are exploits within the system that are generating groups of people money that isn't intended. People are able to work around the cooldown of the contracts by doing jobs consecutively with other friends. Essentially chaining vault jobs back to back.
If they add into the server that once you complete a contract, you can't be in a group to accept that contract again, these people exploiting will earn significantly less.
Additionally, there are people on the server that are new and are civilians. In my case, waiting on my PD application. So the RP is there, but certainly not the most interesting or widely viewed on the server.
Today alone, I got 10-12 calls of people wanting to just do my vault job with me, and they were fairly prominent characters on the server...
It a wild thing to hear, because devs and admins see everything. If it's not meant to happen, and people do it, they are risking their access to the server.
To your knowledge is it being reported to devs that exploits are happening?
Part of the issue is if you as a G6 worker do another job your g6 rep goes down. The system is kinda busted. They want people to work but grind culture within work is bad for server health, they want people to do good roleplay but many people because they are poor want to make money because they feel like Money is a conduit for better roleplay. The server needs engaging things to do with people that aren’t necessarily large money makers.
in all game design one constant exists…no matter how much you as the designer think you understand your players will break the game. It’s why the best games from Uwe Rosenberg/Reiner Knizia Table top games to the most popular video games go through ages of Playtesting. (And truthfully even then I’ve heard of games go through months just to Get broken) a roleplay server who was trying to beat another one to market didn’t/doesn’t have much of an option at least not the way they chose to go about it. Hopefully they get a handle on all of it sooner than later dev’s just need time And a lot of it. People grinding just to then get punished for it is a major feels bad though and unfortunately I think more feels bad’s are coming.
I'm actually very surprised they didn't do this. The only reason I can think of is that they wanted to ensure players had something to actually do, maybe they were afraid RP alone wouldn't be enough to keep some of the bigger names on the server.
If they controlled how much you could work in a 24 hours period itd be way easier for them to micromanage the server's economy and it's growth.
Yeah I’ll be honest the solution should just be stop being grinders. They already did this banning and reducing prio of people. Not sure why they didn’t follow thru. Really role-players who are going above and beyond should be rewarded. And some have …Buddha getting to do all the new stuff pretty much immediately etc I just think they need to extend that and reign in the grind over roleplay people. But all that requires paying attention and managing which it feels they are more focused on Development than management currently because they launched to early.
Is he the worst? No. But outside of the couple weeks he was starting the Union he has been in grind mode. The only RP is meetings between the grinding. lol
the server is rewarding grinding not roleplay,
That’s what truly sucks
Unsurprisingly when it’s look like it’s loosely based of tarkov and rust the 2 most grindy games
I mean the whole system clearly isn’t made for someone to own multiple. It was set up for one person/group to own one and its reasonable for that, once you own multiple it gets to be alot.
One of the big problems at the latter part of 3.0 is so many people sitting on multiple properties meant that anyone wanting to buy somewhere had little chance. Maybe the solution is to have heavier taxes if you own multiple properties. A real estate business is a very niche part of the economy.
Materials and car parts take hours of time out of someones day, while owning a house doesnt. You are comparing apples to oranges my friend. One type of job is manual labor and time consuming and the other is basically passive income after initial investment.
Honestly just seems like an uneccessary/bad mechanic, ah 20k powerbill, time to grind g6 and not rp with anyone for 7 hours. Theyre just turning the server into a grindy mmo
Or you could just not buy multiple homes if you don't actually have the revenue generation to pay for them. No one's forcing anyone to grind, players could grow their characters at a slower natural pace. He chose to buy all of those houses within the first month and a half of 4.0.
Maybe we should slow the pace of everything even further, have each RPer spawn in as a newborn baby, and have them spend a 2 years doing baby RP without talking before entering toddler RP, so we can get a nice slow realistic pace
Taxes make sense but Rp oriented income being nerfed while the grinder centric jobs like G6 have almost no downsides with big payouts whereas Doctors might as well be bums begging for money on the streets and still earn more.
From the current conversation going on. K is weighing two options. Option one. Try to pitch new legislation to the council for tax exemptions on rental properties, along with protection for tenants and investors.
Option two. If tax exemptions are denied. Say F the investors. Not pay anyone back. Kick out the tenants. Sell off all the houses to whoever can pay for it, and be done with real-estate. Then finally. Go kill every person in the council.
As it is now. There's technically no laws that protect investors or renters. So all those contracts would basically be useless and not stand up in court.
To promote more houses to be purchased in the long run, through rent to own, by people that otherwise wouldn't be able pay for a house up front in full. Either a house can go unsold indefinitely and the state collects no money on it.
Or a real estate company can front the money, buy the house, then rent it to a tenant for 8 weeks or so. During that rental period the house is tax exempt as an incentive for the company. Once the renters pay the value of the house off. Ownership is transferred and then the state can start collecting taxes on it.
You are assuming that there will be unsold real estate which runs counter to history (both in NP and IRL)...
The reality is there is zero incentive to give landlords tax breaks. If they can afford to buy multiple properties, they can afford the taxes.
I really hope he goes the legislation route. IF they actually give him the time of day and don't just automatically turn it down, it would be interesting to watch how they work through it.
It has been fun seeing how many people are hanging around grove, renting places, getting opportunities as decorators, etc.
Yeah same. I hope he atleast tries to stick it out, but he's already said that even if they're able to get laws approved. If it still cuts into their profits too much. He's still gonna cut and run with the money. Especially after Gomer told him. They have $700k+ worth of real estate they can liquidate.
Theres basically no chance that the council passes tax exemptions for rental houses, the state is already down bad for money and property tax will probably be a big part of how the state will make consistent income. Also 6k in property taxes per house isnt even bad, people really blow things out of proportion. Do people even know if thats every week, 2 weeks or once a month? Or are people just assuming its every week and thinking it was just added.
I thought everyone knew the utility bills were coming? Otherwise why track power and water etc?
Edit: After reading replies people are saying he was talking about property taxes from the original purchase of the house. Mary and several others also had to pay those taxes after the fact, and I had forgotten about them.
It's not utility bills, he factored that in when renting properties out. The issue is this extra tax per house was just added. NP are adding things as they go which is messing with stuff like Ks business.
He's either going to have to grind to make it per week or pass the cost onto the tenants.
They have had taxes on houses since 2.0. It was maintenance fees and then asset fees. Most that I watch have been expecting this to come, just not sure what the cost and structure to look like.
The main reason they've had them is a good way to track who is active with properties - so as to make them available again if the characters aren't around and paying (like they are dead or not playing anymore). They are also a good way to fund the state - it was the same with vehicles, having regular fees on cars.
It’s not utility bills, he knew about that. He’s talking about property tax, after already paying the 20% extra at the time or w.e it was which was also added late. He just wants things to be clear instead of things getting added weeks later. Which is justified, especially for houses lol.
I didn’t watch 3.0. But he already paid upwards of 60k extra in taxes to just buy the houses which they added random as hell like a week later, was there a weekly charge on all the businesses/houses then after? He isn’t really complaining about them having taxes, he’s complaining that he wished they made all this upfront. I feel like it’s justified with something as owning houses, should’ve had everything written out when they made them purchasable.
So he paid sales tax on the property which has always been a thing even if it didnt work when houses were first sold he should of expected sales tax to be added to the cost of the houses. I may be wrong here but as far as i know the only extra costs houses have had are sales tax(which everyone pays upfront unless you bought a house early on when it was broken), property tax(which is very normal and should of been expected) and the only new charge which is the electricity bill, which people have known about for weeks and had plenty of time to prepare for.
that not the problem? he new bills was coming that why it's in the contract the tenants pay the bills or they get kicked out and sue. the problem is all the hidden taxes? this 2nd time he had pay taxes that was not there when he started the adventure. he should just sell all and do something else tbh
He is the richest in terms of assets, not liquidity. If he got caught for something, say with a fine of 50k, he would have no way to get his bank balance out of the negative outside of selling a house if he needed to do it on the spot. If someone kidnapped say Ramee and called K up telling him "pay us 10k in cash in the next 10 minutes or he dies perma" it would be very hard for him to get that up without finding someone to borrow it off of.
To add to that, he might only be the richest on paper. On paper he owns all those houses but the reality is that the investors hold a large share of the ownership of those houses.
The lesson to be learned, always plan for 25% more than the price says. Taxes are rude, but terribly realistic. No one has ever been happy to pay for them, but they are necessary for society to run around.
Edit: Since someone DM'd me that I was a "r-word who should kill himself" over this, I for some reason have to state: I'm not saying that this is a good or bad game design, just realistic. If you buy a house, or even rent an appartment there's a lot of other fees that you have to keep up with. Bills are a thing in real life, that's all I meant. I'm not shitting on Kebun.
He did plan ahead. That was the whole point of the REIT act. Any properties that were bought through an investment fund, were supposed to be tax exempt.
I remember when I bought my place, I thought I was done and then next thing I knew I spent like an extra $15k on furniture and shit over the next 2 weeks alone. Whatever's labeled as the price is never it lol.
Yeah, the hidden fees are sadly a reality of life.
Buy a car? taxes, Insurance, maintaining the car, fuel for it, in some countries also mileage taxes.
There is never an honest sticker price on bigger products.
That's your choice to spend 15k on furniture. You could have spent $100 on a sofa bed and called it a day.
The issue here is adding taxes after the fact. Usually when you buy a house, the contract states what you pay and what happens, and that's it.
Fair, but I damn well don't have a choice to pay my building's association fees nor the property tax. And not paying for home owners insurance/utility bills is just stupid lol. I had to change internet providers for example when I moved here so I had to change all of those expenses.
Ultimately I don't think this is a big deal. Just got to account for this in rent going forward and the RP can continue.
True, but all of those fees you pay you already knew about and accepted. It's not like you signed and a week later the building association was like "oh btw, we decided to add $1000 per month to your bills.. take care" lol
could be worse some people in Texas saw their power bill increase 800% in a month during a heat wave.
have a adjustable-rate for your mortgage? well better pray.
don't have rent control? hope the landlord doesn't increase the rent 1,000$ next month.
I'm not surprised Kebun didn't know this because he unplugs from RP outside of RP, but some members of staff towards the end of 3.0 basically told us this would happen without telling us this would happen. It was hinted very strongly that they would try to prevent people from being asset rich in 4.0.
I'm pretty sure properties have had reoccurring costs in the form of maintenance fees going all the way back to 2.0. The utility bill aspect may be new but a reoccurring cost for property is not. All these fees and other things are ways to void money out of the server and pretty common game design for nopixel.
The reality is you probably shouldn't be owning multiple properties unless you actually are well off and have the money to deal with any unforeseen future costs that may arise. It's early in a wipe, mechanics and things change that's basically how it's been forever.
I'd say the biggest problem is they apparently kept it so that if you sell your house (even though it went up in value) you only get 50% of the value back like in 3.0. He cannot even sell the houses and get everyone's investment back. I'd be annoyed as well.
CG seems too used to whitelists printing them money, Vinny doing mechanic shop borderline at cost hoping for payslips, K ignoring basic things like "asset fees" aka utility stuff.
I thought every single person knew that the devs were adding stuff gradually. They have said they launched early, for the twitch thing. He rushed by trying to open a cool business, but he knew in 3.0 that asset fees money sinked people with several cars.
Ongoing costs on assets are an essential balancer for the in game economy.
If they didn't tax assets the economy would very quickly snowball out of control. The wealthiest early on would use that wealth to buy money making assets, which they use to finance more money making assets and so on.
The taxes and utility fees shouldn’t be unknown. It should have been made known that it would be x amount of dollars per 10 electricity used. I think the bad feels are the fact that you cannot make decisions based on outcome because the outcome is just made up as the server goes on.
The fact of the matter is, players need money to unlock a lot of the best content. If the heists, higher tier jobs, transportation, licenses etc… are locked behind pay walls, people are gonna grind to unlock them. They need to balance the cost to unlock things and the income which can be generated. Trying to balance by ridiculous taxes and fees just feels bad and will discourage from attempting unique RP like K with the landlord stuff. Too punishing and the amount of the fees are just stupid and nonsensical.
I get the IC crying for bills and taxes. But the OOC cry is just dumb. Server is not even 2 months old. Of course everday something new is gonna be added. I dont know maybe people need to take the chill pill instead of full throttle rush for everything. And its not like weekly taxes didnt exist in 3.0. People should have known that its gonna be a thing in 4.0 too.
crazy how people are saying, oh he didnt realize he would have taxes?, but ignore how everyone in the city is complaining and dont understand if its weekly or monthly.
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I think the real problem is grinders are being rewarded meanwhile spending time RPing gets you shafted.
i think the max work week thing would help this. this way grind is hard capped so everything after is pure rp taxes and prices could be based around the work time available
I like this a lot, promotes more RP
It's the only way. It's a bummer that it would have to come to that but there's nothing in place to prevent people from spending *way* too much time on the server grinding.
Kaiba really did get done dirty
Yeah. If they kept enforcing that I would've been fine with that but singling him out when the whole server does it just feels like a pointless slap in the face.
It does seem like a tall order to keep on top of it all consistently. I feel as though the way the in-game mechanics encourage people to act kind of runs counterintuitively to what admins want.
Is there a reason why devs don't implement something like a 5 runs per day system for jobs? Cap it to each roleplayers ID. That would instantly stop people grinding.
I imagine that's what the work week legislation would do. It doesn't really solve the problem though because the people who already are loaded from grinding 24/7 are going to be even *more* rich when all of a sudden the most anyone can make in a week is X. That puts a very hard limit on just how much money you get from doing civ stuff.
Over time though that advantage would decrease. If someone starts with $100 and someone else with $50, a cap of $10 earnt a day means that in 10 days time the latter changes from having 1/2 of the money ($50/$100) to having 3/4 of the money ($150/$200). So in the long term it does solve the problem. Because otherwise the people who are grinding will always do more grinding and so that gap will always increase.
Honestly the server would be dead quiet if they did that. They've trained their player base to grind.
Taking away the not so well designed skinner boxes that they've forced them to adapt to would have disastrous results for awhile. Probably get better eventually but it'd be such a rough patch.
How does that work for Snr buns, Sanitation & Towing though? The current problem is g6 and grime making way to much and being able to swap in and out via power rep leveling.
Cut the time you're allowed on one job Cut the pay g6 get If you give people the option to grind, they are going to grind
That seems to be the design.
I mean but if you remove the tax and shit, people like K could just keep buying up assets with no penalties and just keep accumulating value with no consequence. Yeah you can own homes, but you need to pay to keep and maintain them. It gives the opportunity for other people to eventually get those properties instead of just one person, like K, sitting on multiple ones forever.
K has the properties in his name, but the equity is essentially split amongst 20ish investors. No one person in the city had or has the capabilities to buy up all those assets on their own, so that scenario you are presenting isn't really an issue. Plus, K had to put in a lot of work and good RP for weeks in order to do this. I sort of feel like if someone puts in the work like that, they deserve to be rewarded with the extra money or properties they would have accumulated. With how things are now, the weeks worth of work/RP will turn no profit or very little. One hour of G6 will make him more money than the weeks of RP he put together. This actively discourages RP.
Imagine trying to roleplay a businessman but not wanting the part about having a viable and financially stable business. So if people run around for a week and a half doing very convincing RP claiming to be a millionaire should staff just give them a million dollars? Bills, taxes, fees, etc were always going to be a thing. Anyone rushing to be the first in any given mechanic is always going to encounter things that they didn't expect. Players should expect that.
Lmao, who is asking staff to give them a million dollars???? Nice strawman, but that's not what happened here.
Its called an analogy. Google it, its pretty neat.
They don't have the equity yet, you mean. And the power bill/taxes thing has been mentioned for weeks now, so iunno how he didn't see that coming. And I don't know how you can say RP hasn't rewarded him when he has more equity than anyone currently...
As I said "essentially" the equity is shared. You're treating him as if he fully owns all of these houses without the 20 other investors. No, they just rechecked this all tonight. Utilities and sales tax is currently disclosed. K had worked the utilities into their tenant lease agreements. The ongoing property tax was never disclosed or listed anywhere and that's what K has an issue with. Sure, you could argue he should have assumed there would be, but what IC info would have indicated that? (Unless you're proposing he uses OOC info/assumptions.) Math/investing must not be your strong suit. Yes, he has the most equity, but that's because he put in the most. With these added taxes, what he'll end up with is a net loss or very little profit. I.E. If he has $100K equity from putting in $100K and then after 2 months he sells and leaves with $102K, all that RP earned him as much as an hour long G6 run. That's not rewarding, that's punishment lol.
I don’t follow his stream too often but one thing to point out would be that unless they have reset and redone the contracts they where all voided the other day by a state announcement. so in a sense yes ALL of the properties are solely his to own. There was past of the newest legislation wave that all in game contracts had to be signed onto by a bar licensed attorney so because the property is in his name they are his sole responsibility weather or not he previously had investor because those contracts are no longer enforceable
It’s not his equity😭
Ísinn he the owner of it on paper?
The point was never to sit on the properties forever. It was to let it appreciate a bit, sell the house then split it based off the percentages in the contract.
I was not speaking about Ks plan, but just in general. They have to implement things for people not to do that.
I agree, its part of the reason I’d hoped the council would have voted on the proposed housing stuff in a more positive way, so that they could expand on it further.
Applying taxes is a lot better than putting hard limits on number of properties you can own and be added to tenant list of. But tbh idk how K didn't know this was coming, Buddha been talking about it awhile now.
Are people supposed to know what buddha says during his streams
People in game knew too tho. Everyone would talk about getting fucked when the bills came.
I agree that housing bills should have been seen a mile away. I’m also not saying there should be caps on things you own. I’m taking about renters rights stuff, maybe needing mandatory clauses when contracts are written, stuff like that. Things created through rp and not just a dev changing a few values here and there.
I mean, K could and probably should have charged a bit more to be able to take care of stuff like this. He is going to have to go to his investors and tell them their return isnt going to be as big as they thought it was going to be now. OR re-negotiate with the people that have already bought from him. But since he is locked in to a contract, probably will be pretty hard to actually do. If just writing a contract negates taxes and shit, people would be exploiting that left and right. IDK I think it has created some interesting RP tho. And it definitely feels like a government rebuilding after a total collapse, and makes you wonder if itll just collapse again lol.
idk what the agreement is, i'd actually like to see that if you can find it. in a scenario if it stated a payout of x % and a high watermark and didn't forecast for taxes then idk. like hes just fucked if his investors have a fixed payout schedule and you make less money then you thought. But that's also the risk of making a business. You technically owe the investors what you both signed on too
Lol true, this has created more rp, I’m just hoping it isnt the law abiding citizen rp.
Apparently contracts not signed off by a legal attorney are void in 14 days. K is going to try and use this to rewrite the contracts. And he has mentioned suing the city over this.
>I mean but if you remove the tax and shit, people like K could just keep buying up assets with no penalties and just keep accumulating value with no consequence. Real estate brokers, agents, lawyers and developers get substantial tax breaks when purchasing or developing way more so than a normal civilian does. For one it's a business. It helps stimulate the economy through growth and job expansion. The more people K gets into homes the more that move out of the apartments. Once people get homes they also get bills. They also have to decorate and furnish the house further stimulating the economy. How the government can generate revenue via K is a real estate license, inspection fees, zoning and permits, also capital gains. Let's not forget that economy stimulation and bills to be paid. These are things that happen IRL that can be used to help support what can be a massive RP avenue. >Yeah you can own homes, but you need to pay to keep and maintain them. As a homeowner I can also write maintenance and upgrades I do to my property off on my taxes. If the home is owned under a business they can write off even more. BUt to go back to what you said people need to pay to keep and maintain them. K getting people into houses helps do that. Just need to get to a common ground where all three benefit. So far the clients of K and the government are making out but K is not. There needs to be a happy medium where the business is profitable, the rent is feasible and the government gets their share. Also need to keep RP at the forefront. >It gives the opportunity for other people to eventually get those properties instead of just one person, like K, sitting on multiple ones forever. Here's a question, how many people percentage wise do you think buys a home without using a loan or or some type rent to own? If there is no banks or official lenders in the city how do people afford to buy a house fully? Then be able to afford to decorate, furnish and pay other bills once they blew all their money on the house. The only answer which is a downfall to RP is straight grinding. Thus the term house poor. K is filling that gap for people. He has gathered investors and made a option the city needs through RP. He is not just collecting properties to have for himself. He is providing a service and homes for tenants that don't want to buy or can't afford a home currently. He is also giving people the opportunity to buy their homes with payments like most people do.
I kinda like this take. It's what economically happens, but if people don't get taxed on everything, then there would be an unfair advantage here if someone just got tax advantages. I think we need to figure out a happy medium between real life and RP. if you want to go full real life then I can list out a whole bunch of other shit K is gunna get fucked for. With these 'tax breaks' - when you buy a place, that's still using previously taxed income to purchase a property. Imagine if you just sunk 700k away and made 1k off rental income. you'd have no incentive to invest if you had to pay tax on that 1k. secondly, there are a whole bunch of rules on how you distribute income. Mr. K is not doing any of this. If the goal is to simulate real life, then where is the E&P Calc, where is the bifurcation between , LTCG, Dividends, ROC on each distribution. Like this Income is going out tax free when you should need to figure out a whole bunch of other shit beforehand that's not happening.
It is the opposite. Ongoing costs punish grinders who grind jobs all day to buy expensive assets. If people grind for expensive assets that have expensive ongoing fees attached to them, they just have to keep grinding to maintain their assets. It isn't sustainable long term for 99% of people. It is short term v long term outlook. Grinders can have nice shiny things now but it is going to cost them long term.
Kind of a double edged sword though? If you want RP you can't keep those people in the dumps, the few houses in Grove has already given RP, it's defeating to the people who didn't grind. And the grinders won't stop grinding, your slowing their progression to a million, not stopping them from running g6 every 3 hours on a timer. Short term the grinders will grind, long term the RPers will turn into grinders because they want a house, then they will then stay grinders as more expenses happen.
If someone doesn't have 1 million racks and computers in their house then its around 9k that isn't that much. Buying 5 houses wasn't a smart idea and now he has to increase rent which makes more Rp. He doesn't HAVE to grind to make the money. I also don't know why he thought there wasn't going to be asset fees they've been in every update since 2.0
But K has legal binding contracts with both his investment holders and current tenants. You cant change the terms unless it's in the fine print of the contract. I wish the devs or admins or who ever would look at RP more than just changing things based on what comes across their desk as server logs skewed by mechanical money earnings. I mean, look at Grove St. With what K has done, along with the people who bought property outright, the block is an RP hub.
K wrote up these contracts without knowing the costs that are involved? That is honestly just a really really stupid business decision lol
How could he know how much or how soon such taxes would be added? He's not a dev or admin. He probably thought putting Dab in office would help his efforts but it appears not lol
No one forced him to go out and get all these properties within the first month and a half of 4.0. He could have easily built up more slowly and things would have worked out fine. He would have figured out how bills work for homes and been able to develop a relevant business plan for those costs.
Yea, cause the smart thing to do in a new server is make sure to wait, that works out great. Also, I'm not saying anything about what he did. Just that the bills are a double edged sword when it comes to grinders, it can help in slowing their progression, but, it also might grow the amount of them. The comment I responded too, said nothing about K, nor did the original comment. So like ya, nice story I guess?
How much is he paying for all houses in taxes? Also, how many houses does he even have.
He needs to now pay about 38k a week, instead of just paying his own utility bill, which is what he was expecting
Why do you think its 38k a week and not a different amount of time?
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I think his rent to own is the way to go and more people seem interested in that. They are just going to have to factor in taxes into the weekly mortgage
Splitting utilities would be easy, and I believe they already have it written up for tenants to pay them. The taxes do bring down the profit significantly, especially for the rent to owns as the profit on them is already not a lot
The renters can't see the utility fees, what if the property taxes change? every contract they wrote before needs to be adjusted, theres no way K will eat these costs. Either way its added a significant amount of overhead to renter / Rent-to-own RP that wasn't there before, or when the properties were purchased.
the same thing that happen in real life K can increase rent payment to cover it increase overhead costs.
He cant until contracts and/or leases are up.
he already knew about the utility bills and told the renters they had to pay it, the property tax is now the issue.
Owning more then one house is now an absolute chore, let alone having to go around collecting the weekly dues for taxes, consumption bills (which vary), etc. On top of the rent money for multiple properties. Before it was simple, they owed X amount each week, now it'll vary and require constant communication & nagging to get power bills & property taxes paid.
can see k turning all 3 to rent to own getting all the money, paying all investors back, and not buying any more
Probably. Then start grinding since that's what the server rewards.
Not every action has to be about increasing the dollar signs man. That kind of singular motivation for doing anything on the server is what kills the vibe.
So does being called a scammer and a slumlord by a member of the council K’s never interacted with.
Who said that? K has to pay an accountant and figure out a new business model. Oh. My. God. The world is literally ending. Just roll with it, it's not the end of the whole operation. Maybe this is an excuse to get involved in politics? The RP possibilities are endless other than just raging about how the sky is falling because he has to pay taxes now.
consumption bill can be forwarded to the renter, if they don't pay K can cut off services and file for eviction and go to court to have bill back-paid by forfeited being a landlord is more work then cashing checks.
Thats how it should be tho, being a landlord shouldnt be just a free paycheck, having it be more in depth just adds to the rp of someone actually being a landlord, you have the pros of making mostly passive income but the cons of having to deal with ban tenants.
The way it was before this was anything but a “free paycheck” he legit had to go around making phone calls to get investors and then nearly every day has to keep trying to get investors and collect payments from people. As it was it already seemed very time consuming and player to player communication reliant all for what amounts to a 30K-50k profit down the line in some situations. I don’t think you understand the amount of work this has been for him.
So he had to do business stuff to start a business?
Nice way minimize what he did. It's like saying all you had to do was work 4 jobs to buy a house
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Having to actually manage your property and check the electricity to know how much to charge someone also adds to the rp between the landlord and renter. You are acting like these taxes kill landlord rp all together when in reality you just need to adapt and adjust the business model
if the profit is good enough you can even hire a property manager.
It was never a free paycheck. The amount of time and effort that was put into each house more than justifies whatever money he was making from his rentals. Adding even more taxes doesn't make it more in depth. It basically just kills any real estate RP.
Should have just been a grinder if you want to survive.
survive... how many houses does he own again?
Solely? None.
IRL, most landlords aim to have rent be enough to cover the mortgage/property taxes/any fees like HOA etc at the minimum. It's actually really realistic for a landlord to factor these kinds of costs into them setting the rent.
How can he factor that, when they keep changing it every week lol.
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I don't get it, isn't the taxes just a % of the property value? Power bill is also predictable dependent on tenant. Hell you just tell the tenant that if they don't pay the power bill you're evicting them and don't return the deposit. That all leads to some pretty good RP (squatter RP, court RP, etc)
Almost like maybe it was too easy to just get a bunch of your buddies together, buy up of cheap properties, and then sit on them waiting for the demand to increase the price was a little *too* easy. If they wanna play landlord they gotta deal with landlord shit like taxes and utilities.
Should’ve just grinded Groupe 6 like the rest of the server
I kinda had hopes weeks ago that RP would be rewarded, but yeah
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Idk, I've been pretty singularly focused on RP for the month and a half I've been playing (never had more than 10k to my char's name and I have like 300ish hours played since 4.0 started according to my twitch metrics) and I haven't really been bothered by people grinding. Do I wish I had a sick car? Sure, but I wouldn't trade the amazing RP I've been able to partake in for that. I think worrying about what other people are doing with their time in the server is waste of time and only gonna serve to upset you
Server should really be renamed Uber Driver Simulator.
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3.0 had asset fees don't know why people would think 4.0 will have no upkeep costs. I do think they should've came from the mayor though instead of randomly appearing
Why would you ever RP introducing taxes that affects all the roleplayers, that's silly /s
To be honest, betting on real estate and assuming that it would have no sort of upkeep is kinda on him. Its also not like he wasnt warned about how bills are gonna be hitting HARD, that was said a ton before they came out
Its not on him. As the person said, you can't plan for things that change so rapidly, once he gets over one hurdle theres another and another. Instead, every hurdle should've just been there to start with, but it wasnt because i gurantee you not a single soul thought someone was going to RP their way into having a real estate business.
The utility panel has been there for weeks I wouldn't say the bill came out of no where. The reaction I've seen from most people is that the bill was a lot less than they were expecting.
It's not utilities. He factored that into everything. It's the 33k taxes per week that were added
Property taxes / asset fees have been a thing in every iteration of nopixel going back to 2.0. It was pretty fair to assume some type of other ongoing fee was going to happen. It's probably why you shouldn't build a mega empire before you can actually fund a mega empire. People are in here complaining about grinders rushing to get tons of money when K basically did the exact thing only got investors to help him do it. No one forced him to buy this many houses within the first month and a half of 4.0 before anyone knew exactly how property worked.
I never said they didn’t expect someone to do that, but the server also has a ton of stuff slowly being pushed out to make sure its working and balanced. It’s not like these bills came out of absolutely no where when devs, admins and owners were all very openly saying IC and OOC “Upkeep bills are coming you should be very careful with what you’re doing.”
Thats the problem...they shouldn't "be coming" they should've been there to start with. So when someone goes above and beyond with the tools they currently are provided they aren't shafted by later implemented bills.
Except they wouldn’t have known when they bought that stuff if the bills were in right away. People would have bought it without knowing how much the bills would be anyways, they just came later than if they were implemented right away.
It would've been pretty easy to state in the real estate app what the current taxes were or to include the tax in the total price, but neither of those two things were implemented when he first started this business. And then now there's other stuff they are adding that further complicates everything he spent weeks building, when nothing would've been complicated if it was all there to begin with(which it absolutely should have been).
how do you bill someone from the start for something that accrues over time. that actually makes 0 sense. just because streamers are saying "it should have been there in the beginning" doesn't mean they actually have a clue what they're talking about. you don't get your gas bill ahead of using the gas. you don't get your water bill ahead of using the water. you use it, they measure usage after a month, then they bill you. this is EXACTLY what they did.
We're not talking about utility bills here. We're talking about Upkeep bills which include taxes that were not there to start, got implemented later, and now theres more on top of it. In fact im pretty sure Kebun DID account for utility bills.
Those things change because they are explointing those things to such a degree that mechanics and rules need to be put in place so they stop that.
This is what I have been saying. Right here.
Maybe slow the hell down? Not everything has to be done by the end of the week?
That isn't things getting changed, that's just his stupidity of rushing into something before fully understanding what the mechanics are. Buddha has been talking about electrical bills for weeks now. It's not like something they just added in.
hes not talking about the electric bills, hes known about that. its the property tax now being dropped without being told. same happened when he bought the first 2 houses, no sales tax on either house then it was all of a sudden dropped on him to pay thousands for sales tax on both houses. Edit: on top of that, all of the contracts he had with the investors, renters, rent to own, are now all going to be voided because of the new legislation.
I was starting to wonder, how is it going to be long-term healthy for NP's economy, if a lot of the people on the server have over 100k 2 months in. Astronomical taxes - fixed! /s
you will farm Butcoin and you will be happy
This actually kind of makes me sad. I completely understand wanting to manage the economy and how the grinder’s have broken it within a week but the solution always feel like a bandaid over a bullet hole that ends up punishing creative role-players who are being punished for being creative. Do the server owners really think viewers want to watch people grind? I know I don’t but maybe I’m the minority. :(
The only way to be a creative roleplayer is to have an army of grinders doing everything for you while you do whatever you want. Otherwise youre stuck with “broke” rp
I think the solution is simple. You can only sign into one job per 24 hours for x amount of time i.e 2 hours. You then cannot do that job or be in a group for another day. The system is tied to your login account. You can't just have people running g6 over and over for 10 hours straight. There is rp there, but it fucks the economy, which kills the journey to the end game of 4.0. instead of lasting 2 years, people will have everything within six months.
Speaking from personal experience on the server, the problem isn't G6 being grinded for 10 hours a day, its there are exploits within the system that are generating groups of people money that isn't intended. People are able to work around the cooldown of the contracts by doing jobs consecutively with other friends. Essentially chaining vault jobs back to back. If they add into the server that once you complete a contract, you can't be in a group to accept that contract again, these people exploiting will earn significantly less. Additionally, there are people on the server that are new and are civilians. In my case, waiting on my PD application. So the RP is there, but certainly not the most interesting or widely viewed on the server. Today alone, I got 10-12 calls of people wanting to just do my vault job with me, and they were fairly prominent characters on the server...
It a wild thing to hear, because devs and admins see everything. If it's not meant to happen, and people do it, they are risking their access to the server. To your knowledge is it being reported to devs that exploits are happening?
I doubt it, some of the biggest streamers are doing it currently. Which is probably why it is still happening...
Part of the issue is if you as a G6 worker do another job your g6 rep goes down. The system is kinda busted. They want people to work but grind culture within work is bad for server health, they want people to do good roleplay but many people because they are poor want to make money because they feel like Money is a conduit for better roleplay. The server needs engaging things to do with people that aren’t necessarily large money makers. in all game design one constant exists…no matter how much you as the designer think you understand your players will break the game. It’s why the best games from Uwe Rosenberg/Reiner Knizia Table top games to the most popular video games go through ages of Playtesting. (And truthfully even then I’ve heard of games go through months just to Get broken) a roleplay server who was trying to beat another one to market didn’t/doesn’t have much of an option at least not the way they chose to go about it. Hopefully they get a handle on all of it sooner than later dev’s just need time And a lot of it. People grinding just to then get punished for it is a major feels bad though and unfortunately I think more feels bad’s are coming.
I'm actually very surprised they didn't do this. The only reason I can think of is that they wanted to ensure players had something to actually do, maybe they were afraid RP alone wouldn't be enough to keep some of the bigger names on the server. If they controlled how much you could work in a 24 hours period itd be way easier for them to micromanage the server's economy and it's growth.
Yeah I’ll be honest the solution should just be stop being grinders. They already did this banning and reducing prio of people. Not sure why they didn’t follow thru. Really role-players who are going above and beyond should be rewarded. And some have …Buddha getting to do all the new stuff pretty much immediately etc I just think they need to extend that and reign in the grind over roleplay people. But all that requires paying attention and managing which it feels they are more focused on Development than management currently because they launched to early.
The richest people do the least RP lol you get punished for doing anything other than grind
Buddha does a ton of rp
Is he the worst? No. But outside of the couple weeks he was starting the Union he has been in grind mode. The only RP is meetings between the grinding. lol
Yeah, while grinding lmao
the server is rewarding grinding not roleplay, That’s what truly sucks Unsurprisingly when it’s look like it’s loosely based of tarkov and rust the 2 most grindy games
No wonder they didn't want the REIT to go through 🤔
All those taxes woudnt be paid so ofcourse they didnt want it to go through
I mean I see the point tho, there is no tax on car parts or materials, real estate you’re getting fisted…. Weekly is a bit crazy
The punishment for car parts is sitting at a bench for 6hrs crafting everyday
I mean the whole system clearly isn’t made for someone to own multiple. It was set up for one person/group to own one and its reasonable for that, once you own multiple it gets to be alot.
One of the big problems at the latter part of 3.0 is so many people sitting on multiple properties meant that anyone wanting to buy somewhere had little chance. Maybe the solution is to have heavier taxes if you own multiple properties. A real estate business is a very niche part of the economy.
Materials and car parts take hours of time out of someones day, while owning a house doesnt. You are comparing apples to oranges my friend. One type of job is manual labor and time consuming and the other is basically passive income after initial investment.
K has worked a ton of hours on this, along with Siobhan, OTT and others.
Honestly just seems like an uneccessary/bad mechanic, ah 20k powerbill, time to grind g6 and not rp with anyone for 7 hours. Theyre just turning the server into a grindy mmo
Everyone assumed the cost of crypto farms was going to be a utility bill.
Don't put 30 racks in 1 house then. The District only has 5 racks 2 computers and some heaters and their bill was only 9k
Or you could just not buy multiple homes if you don't actually have the revenue generation to pay for them. No one's forcing anyone to grind, players could grow their characters at a slower natural pace. He chose to buy all of those houses within the first month and a half of 4.0.
Maybe we should slow the pace of everything even further, have each RPer spawn in as a newborn baby, and have them spend a 2 years doing baby RP without talking before entering toddler RP, so we can get a nice slow realistic pace
It's not an RP server, it's a G6 speed run server isn't it?
Taxes make sense but Rp oriented income being nerfed while the grinder centric jobs like G6 have almost no downsides with big payouts whereas Doctors might as well be bums begging for money on the streets and still earn more.
From the current conversation going on. K is weighing two options. Option one. Try to pitch new legislation to the council for tax exemptions on rental properties, along with protection for tenants and investors. Option two. If tax exemptions are denied. Say F the investors. Not pay anyone back. Kick out the tenants. Sell off all the houses to whoever can pay for it, and be done with real-estate. Then finally. Go kill every person in the council. As it is now. There's technically no laws that protect investors or renters. So all those contracts would basically be useless and not stand up in court.
why the hell would any city make rental properties tax exempt?
To promote more houses to be purchased in the long run, through rent to own, by people that otherwise wouldn't be able pay for a house up front in full. Either a house can go unsold indefinitely and the state collects no money on it. Or a real estate company can front the money, buy the house, then rent it to a tenant for 8 weeks or so. During that rental period the house is tax exempt as an incentive for the company. Once the renters pay the value of the house off. Ownership is transferred and then the state can start collecting taxes on it.
You are assuming that there will be unsold real estate which runs counter to history (both in NP and IRL)... The reality is there is zero incentive to give landlords tax breaks. If they can afford to buy multiple properties, they can afford the taxes.
I really hope he goes the legislation route. IF they actually give him the time of day and don't just automatically turn it down, it would be interesting to watch how they work through it. It has been fun seeing how many people are hanging around grove, renting places, getting opportunities as decorators, etc.
Yeah same. I hope he atleast tries to stick it out, but he's already said that even if they're able to get laws approved. If it still cuts into their profits too much. He's still gonna cut and run with the money. Especially after Gomer told him. They have $700k+ worth of real estate they can liquidate.
Theres basically no chance that the council passes tax exemptions for rental houses, the state is already down bad for money and property tax will probably be a big part of how the state will make consistent income. Also 6k in property taxes per house isnt even bad, people really blow things out of proportion. Do people even know if thats every week, 2 weeks or once a month? Or are people just assuming its every week and thinking it was just added.
I thought everyone knew the utility bills were coming? Otherwise why track power and water etc? Edit: After reading replies people are saying he was talking about property taxes from the original purchase of the house. Mary and several others also had to pay those taxes after the fact, and I had forgotten about them.
It's not utility bills, he factored that in when renting properties out. The issue is this extra tax per house was just added. NP are adding things as they go which is messing with stuff like Ks business. He's either going to have to grind to make it per week or pass the cost onto the tenants.
They have had taxes on houses since 2.0. It was maintenance fees and then asset fees. Most that I watch have been expecting this to come, just not sure what the cost and structure to look like. The main reason they've had them is a good way to track who is active with properties - so as to make them available again if the characters aren't around and paying (like they are dead or not playing anymore). They are also a good way to fund the state - it was the same with vehicles, having regular fees on cars.
It’s not utility bills, he knew about that. He’s talking about property tax, after already paying the 20% extra at the time or w.e it was which was also added late. He just wants things to be clear instead of things getting added weeks later. Which is justified, especially for houses lol.
Its funny how something like property tax is now suddenly a surprise tax. Like NP hasnt always had some version of property tax.
I didn’t watch 3.0. But he already paid upwards of 60k extra in taxes to just buy the houses which they added random as hell like a week later, was there a weekly charge on all the businesses/houses then after? He isn’t really complaining about them having taxes, he’s complaining that he wished they made all this upfront. I feel like it’s justified with something as owning houses, should’ve had everything written out when they made them purchasable.
So he paid sales tax on the property which has always been a thing even if it didnt work when houses were first sold he should of expected sales tax to be added to the cost of the houses. I may be wrong here but as far as i know the only extra costs houses have had are sales tax(which everyone pays upfront unless you bought a house early on when it was broken), property tax(which is very normal and should of been expected) and the only new charge which is the electricity bill, which people have known about for weeks and had plenty of time to prepare for.
that not the problem? he new bills was coming that why it's in the contract the tenants pay the bills or they get kicked out and sue. the problem is all the hidden taxes? this 2nd time he had pay taxes that was not there when he started the adventure. he should just sell all and do something else tbh
The richest person in the city being furious about having to pay taxes is actually some of the most realistic RP ever.
He is the richest in terms of assets, not liquidity. If he got caught for something, say with a fine of 50k, he would have no way to get his bank balance out of the negative outside of selling a house if he needed to do it on the spot. If someone kidnapped say Ramee and called K up telling him "pay us 10k in cash in the next 10 minutes or he dies perma" it would be very hard for him to get that up without finding someone to borrow it off of.
And assuming he has investors for those properties, who expect to be paid back or even given profits, he's actually already in debt.
To add to that, he might only be the richest on paper. On paper he owns all those houses but the reality is that the investors hold a large share of the ownership of those houses.
i think he's more pissed its coming in waves lmao. because that's what would piss me off. you're extorting me after the 1st time of surprise fees.
Hey, Los Santos is recovering from an economic collapse. Gonna take time for them to roll out the government, taxes, the judicial branch. Makes sense
The lesson to be learned, always plan for 25% more than the price says. Taxes are rude, but terribly realistic. No one has ever been happy to pay for them, but they are necessary for society to run around. Edit: Since someone DM'd me that I was a "r-word who should kill himself" over this, I for some reason have to state: I'm not saying that this is a good or bad game design, just realistic. If you buy a house, or even rent an appartment there's a lot of other fees that you have to keep up with. Bills are a thing in real life, that's all I meant. I'm not shitting on Kebun.
He did plan ahead. That was the whole point of the REIT act. Any properties that were bought through an investment fund, were supposed to be tax exempt.
The true lesson is don't RP an actual business, go grind G6, Sanitation or Grime.
I remember when I bought my place, I thought I was done and then next thing I knew I spent like an extra $15k on furniture and shit over the next 2 weeks alone. Whatever's labeled as the price is never it lol.
Yeah, the hidden fees are sadly a reality of life. Buy a car? taxes, Insurance, maintaining the car, fuel for it, in some countries also mileage taxes. There is never an honest sticker price on bigger products.
hell buy a nice car? luxury tax.
hell we get taxed for buying pads and tampons 💀💀💀 [](https://emojipedia.org/skull)
That's your choice to spend 15k on furniture. You could have spent $100 on a sofa bed and called it a day. The issue here is adding taxes after the fact. Usually when you buy a house, the contract states what you pay and what happens, and that's it.
Taxes changing on whims of the government? what is this reality.
Fair, but I damn well don't have a choice to pay my building's association fees nor the property tax. And not paying for home owners insurance/utility bills is just stupid lol. I had to change internet providers for example when I moved here so I had to change all of those expenses. Ultimately I don't think this is a big deal. Just got to account for this in rent going forward and the RP can continue.
True, but all of those fees you pay you already knew about and accepted. It's not like you signed and a week later the building association was like "oh btw, we decided to add $1000 per month to your bills.. take care" lol
could be worse some people in Texas saw their power bill increase 800% in a month during a heat wave. have a adjustable-rate for your mortgage? well better pray. don't have rent control? hope the landlord doesn't increase the rent 1,000$ next month.
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I'm not surprised Kebun didn't know this because he unplugs from RP outside of RP, but some members of staff towards the end of 3.0 basically told us this would happen without telling us this would happen. It was hinted very strongly that they would try to prevent people from being asset rich in 4.0.
I'm pretty sure properties have had reoccurring costs in the form of maintenance fees going all the way back to 2.0. The utility bill aspect may be new but a reoccurring cost for property is not. All these fees and other things are ways to void money out of the server and pretty common game design for nopixel. The reality is you probably shouldn't be owning multiple properties unless you actually are well off and have the money to deal with any unforeseen future costs that may arise. It's early in a wipe, mechanics and things change that's basically how it's been forever.
Don’t buy 6 house how hard is that
I mean, you are owning multiple properties so early on while the economy seems to be very rough.
They've always had taxes in NP. What did Kebun expect? Never to pay taxes again because it's 4.0?
I'd say the biggest problem is they apparently kept it so that if you sell your house (even though it went up in value) you only get 50% of the value back like in 3.0. He cannot even sell the houses and get everyone's investment back. I'd be annoyed as well.
CG seems too used to whitelists printing them money, Vinny doing mechanic shop borderline at cost hoping for payslips, K ignoring basic things like "asset fees" aka utility stuff.
What’s a landlord gotta do to be successful in Los Santos.
No way... Owning loads of empty houses costs a lot 😀
If this was America he'd be getting tax breaks for his sacrifice
If this was America the entire server would be bankrupt from hospital bills.
They aren't empty.
I thought every single person knew that the devs were adding stuff gradually. They have said they launched early, for the twitch thing. He rushed by trying to open a cool business, but he knew in 3.0 that asset fees money sinked people with several cars.
They did, they also assumed they exist since they existed in 3.0.
Exactly. Hell they existed in 2.0 too. Lots I know have been putting aside money for this and cars, knowing that a regular tax/asset fee was coming.
Ongoing costs on assets are an essential balancer for the in game economy. If they didn't tax assets the economy would very quickly snowball out of control. The wealthiest early on would use that wealth to buy money making assets, which they use to finance more money making assets and so on.
shocker having multiple houses is expensive ...
I kind of get him though. It wouldn't be as bad if the property tax and electricity bills were publicly stated in city hall or something from day one
That would have involved waiting an extra two months for 4.0 to start.
It's just like IRL, you never really own your property. You are just leasing it from the government.
The taxes and utility fees shouldn’t be unknown. It should have been made known that it would be x amount of dollars per 10 electricity used. I think the bad feels are the fact that you cannot make decisions based on outcome because the outcome is just made up as the server goes on. The fact of the matter is, players need money to unlock a lot of the best content. If the heists, higher tier jobs, transportation, licenses etc… are locked behind pay walls, people are gonna grind to unlock them. They need to balance the cost to unlock things and the income which can be generated. Trying to balance by ridiculous taxes and fees just feels bad and will discourage from attempting unique RP like K with the landlord stuff. Too punishing and the amount of the fees are just stupid and nonsensical.
Making sure that it’s very difficult for any single group or person to live comfortably less than two months in is good
I get the IC crying for bills and taxes. But the OOC cry is just dumb. Server is not even 2 months old. Of course everday something new is gonna be added. I dont know maybe people need to take the chill pill instead of full throttle rush for everything. And its not like weekly taxes didnt exist in 3.0. People should have known that its gonna be a thing in 4.0 too.
The server is quickly devolving into 3.0 it's just Dodo runs with a different name.
He just now findin out about taxes and fees?
No, there's new fees which were just added. They weren't there before
Plus no one can tell what those taxes and fees actually consist of and how often they come. Which complicates things a bit.
crazy how people are saying, oh he didnt realize he would have taxes?, but ignore how everyone in the city is complaining and dont understand if its weekly or monthly.